Help! My friend's kids are animals!

[nmoira]

Friends don't let their kids ^%$#@% upon friends.

 

I find it sad that this need be said in a literal sense.

[Jennifer3141]

I find it sad that this need be said in a literal sense.

 

 

I know. We need to send the OP this on a bumper sticker. She can drive that can to the next park meetup. :laugh:

[nmoira]

I know. We need to send the OP this on a bumper sticker. She can drive that can to the next park meetup. :laugh:

 

 

ETA: Sorry for the extra images. There was some glitch when I inserted the first three and they didn't show up in my editing window.

[Ellie]

 

Also, I would say her to her directly, "I can't deal with the poop. I need the kids to either use the toilet or have a diaper on." Let her think you're the weird one. After I moved, I would FADE AWAY. This kind of parenting does not lead to people who are pleasant to be around.

 

:iagree: :iagree: :iagree:

[KungFuPanda]

I know the OP thinks her problem is with the kids and not the parents, but the behaviors listed, in kids that age, ARE the parents' issue. Now, my child was a maniac at age 2, and I'd hate to be judged on that, but I did actively work very hard to civilize him.

[ondreeuh]

Couldn't you just say, "hey friend, you know we parent our kids pretty differently, and have different rules for our kids ... Well some of the things your kids are doing in my house are outside my comfort zone and are not things i allow my own kids to do, like run around naked and touch food with unwashed hands. It really stresses me out and then I don't feel like I get to enjoy our visit as much as I'd like. I've struggled with how to tell you this because I don't want you to think I am criticizing you, and I know you have reasons for the choices you make, but I think I would enjoy our visits much more if we met at a park so that I could focus on you and not how your kids are acting in my home."

[Luanne]

nm

Edited June 10, 2013 by Moderator
That was totally uncalled for.

[Luanne]

I know the OP thinks her problem is with the kids and not the parents, but the behaviors listed, in kids that age, ARE the parents' issue. Now, my child was a maniac at age 2, and I'd hate to be judged on that, but I did actively work very hard to civilize him.

 

 

It doesn't sound like the person the OP is talking about cares how wild her children are. That is the difference.

[nmoira]

I also wouldn't freak out and get my kids out of the kiddy pool, if one of my young toddlers accidentally peed in it. I'm not phobic of baby urine. However, I'd certainly not encourage this behavior, and if I had company, I'd certainly empty the pool and not let other kids sit in my kid's pee, no matter how diluted.

 

The only thing that bothers me here is that the mom doesn't immediately clean up the poop. This just seems really odd and unhealthy and to me, suggests of some kind of a mental issue. It is as though she has some kind of an unhealthy preoccupation with feces.

 

I also can't imagine witnessing these poop incidents, and never saying anything? If it were me, I'd jump up and offer cleaning supplies and help her clean-up if needed.

 

These seem like key differences to me.

[Aspasia]

A toddler eating from the parent's plate, painting late in the day, crawling onto the table to reach for food (assuming it is finger food), being naked in the yard, doesn't bother me one single bit. Even pooping in the yard during potty training could be just fine.

 

I also wouldn't freak out and get my kids out of the kiddy pool, if one of my young toddlers accidentally peed in it. I'm not phobic of baby urine. However, I'd certainly not encourage this behavior, and if I had company, I'd certainly empty the pool and not let other kids sit in my kid's pee, no matter how diluted.

 

The only thing that bothers me here is that the mom doesn't immediately clean up the poop. This just seems really odd and unhealthy and to me, suggests of some kind of a mental issue. It is as though she has some kind of an unhealthy preoccupation with feces.

 

I also can't imagine witnessing these poop incidents, and never saying anything? If it were me, I'd jump up and offer cleaning supplies and help her clean-up if needed.

 

Also, if OP has so many issues with the way her friend parents, I assure the OP that the friend has as many issues with the way the OP parents as well. This is very likely to be a frustrating experiences for both of you. As I said, my only issues out of all mentioned were not cleaning up the pooping and peeing in the pool while friends are there, and even if those are a definite deal breaker for me, I'd feel very uncomfortable with a friend who found it disgusting that my toddler ate from my plate!

 

A toddler eating from his mom's plate is one thing. That toddler grabbing a scoop of ice cream from his mom's bowl with his bare hand and shoving it in his mouth is ridiculous. A kid fishing ice out of his mom's drink--while she's holding it and sipping it intermittently--with his bare hands is ridiculous. If I share my food with my kids, it's from a spoon. My toddler is expected to eat with utensils, not his bare hands.

 

Toddlers crawling across the table and grabbing food out of a serving bowl doesn't bother you??? In what world is that widely accepted?

 

As for witnessing the pooping incidents, I DO say something when I notice it. The incident with my dh's shoe happened without my knowledge...until I smelled it and saw it on my baby. I did tell my friend, and I did help clean up. The incident with the poop in front of my neighbor's house happened while it was raining. I didn't see it happen. We found it the next morning (dd confirmed that she saw it happen), and what was I supposed to do? Call my friend to come clean it up?

 

I should mention that this is not "just" a friend. Her brother and my sister have a child, so we share a niece. When we moved across the country from our families, this family happened to live where we moved and we have become very close to them. So my relationship with her feels a lot like she's a sister-in-law. But as her children have gotten older, it has become harder and harder to spend time with them.

 

Tonight we went over to her house for her dad's birthday party (something we wouldn't miss as her parents have been incredibly good to us and we really love this guy), and in just one event, the following things happened:

 

-3-year-old peed in a puddle in the sandbox where all the kids were playing

-3-year-old pooped on one of the adirondack chairs (friend laughed and wiped it up)

-2-year-old destroyed the dip by dipping the same chip in it a gazillion times, taking teeny bites in between (friend laughed and said, "I guess he likes the dip!")

-3-year-old ruined half the cake by repeatedly swiping and licking his fingers

 

And this was all totally normal for a event with her kids.

[Firefly]

Wow. Way to prepare your kids to operate in the real world... you know, the world that has boundaries and limitations- especially with regard to poo! That's just nasty. I had an acquaintance who had a similar parenting style. IMO this was decidedly a lack of parenting-- providing absolutely no rules whatsoever. No set meal times, bed times, kids were not expected to clean up, brush their teeth, or bathe until THEY wanted to. She made each of them whatever they wanted for meals (she has 6).

 

Now, I am in NO WAY fastidious with my own house. It tends to look like the Burrow from Harry Potter-- lots of books and baskets of yarn about. You know... lived in and loved. But she would make comments about me being meticulous and organized that were not meant as compliments and it annoyed me to no end. The kids would act like wild banshees in my house, so I started making play dates at playgrounds and parks and quickly wound down contact. I know that's not possible in your case since you share a relation. I think in your situation I would gently talk to her about your feelings and concerns about the kids' behavior. I hope you can find a solution.

[KungFuPanda]

 

 

A toddler eating from his mom's plate is one thing. That toddler grabbing a scoop of ice cream from his mom's bowl with his bare hand and shoving it in his mouth is ridiculous. A kid fishing ice out of his mom's drink--while she's holding it and sipping it intermittently--with his bare hands is ridiculous. If I share my food with my kids, it's from a spoon. My toddler is expected to eat with utensils, not his bare hands.

 

Toddlers crawling across the table and grabbing food out of a serving bowl doesn't bother you??? In what world is that widely accepted?

 

As for witnessing the pooping incidents, I DO say something when I notice it. The incident with my dh's shoe happened without my knowledge...until I smelled it and saw it on my baby. I did tell my friend, and I did help clean up. The incident with the poop in front of my neighbor's house happened while it was raining. I didn't see it happen. We found it the next morning (dd confirmed that she saw it happen), and what was I supposed to do? Call my friend to come clean it up?

 

I should mention that this is not "just" a friend. Her brother and my sister have a child, so we share a niece. When we moved across the country from our families, this family happened to live where we moved and we have become very close to them. So my relationship with her feels a lot like she's a sister-in-law. But as her children have gotten older, it has become harder and harder to spend time with them.

 

Tonight we went over to her house for her dad's birthday party (something we wouldn't miss as her parents have been incredibly good to us and we really love this guy), and in just one event, the following things happened:

 

-3-year-old peed in a puddle in the sandbox where all the kids were playing

-3-year-old pooped on one of the adirondack chairs (friend laughed and wiped it up)

-2-year-old destroyed the dip by dipping the same chip in it a gazillion times, taking teeny bites in between (friend laughed and said, "I guess he likes the dip!")

-3-year-old ruined half the cake by repeatedly swiping and licking his fingers

 

And this was all totally normal for a event with her kids.

 

 

Crikey! I hope she wakes up or your kids won't be allowed near hers when they're teens. She needs an intervention. She can't be happy like that. There must be a part of her that wishes she didn't have to joke away such horrid behavior. Does her husband not intervene at all? Do her parents not mind? Can you anonymously mail her a basic parenting book? Her kids won't have friends!

[Laurie4b]

I think I would have to tell her the truth. "Dearest friend, I can't deal with the poop. I know it's your dear one's poop and I'll probably offend you by saying this, but can we just get together, the two of us till he's done the poop phase? I really want to keep our friendship" Yes, you might lose the friendship. But I , personally, wouldn't be able to hide my disgust/irritation anyway, so I might as well be honest when I'm not right in the middle of being disgusted/angry.

[QueenCat]

She's the kind of parent who is all about freedom for her kids. She doesn't want to stifle their creativity by imposing "meaningless" boundaries on them. We're close to her parents as well, and they are very much the same--very loving, artsy, do-your-own-thing kind of people.

 

 

This is not "artsy" parenting............ I know plenty of artsy people, and their children most certainly do have manners and DO NOT poop wherever they may be.

[Tita Gidge]

I think the nature of your relationship calls for honesty, I really do. There's so much more at stake than with a normal friendship, since you share a neice. But HOW you are honest is definitely important, and you're absolutely correct that it can do more harm than good. If I were you, I'd play up the fact that she thinks you're uptight and strict. Self-deprecate a bit, for the better good of your relationship. Best if it's done outside of any incident, rather than in the heat of one - for example, when she rings you up for a visit you can honestly but gently say: I'm having a crazy day today. I love you, love your kid, but I can't take the poop thing today, I really just can't. Let's do the park tomorrow, or Mom's night tonight. I would love some one-on-one with you when the kids go to bed. Are you free tonight?

 

Honestly, if you can do that twice for every three invites (suck up the third invite and get the kids together), she should catch on. And if not, it paves the way for a more honest conversation if that needs to happen. I think her parenting philosophy is a nice one, actually. Idealistic in some ways, but commendable in its faults. It's also one that's popular when the kids are younger. IME it can take 5 years or more (if ever) for her to see that she may have swung too far into the babycentric culture (if she has). What's explained away during toddlerhood, preschool, and even the elementary years is sometimes met with disbelief and frustration once the child hits an age wherein the parents feel he ought to behave differently (despite not having been taught).

 

I actually tend to parent much the way your friend does. It's how I was raised by my parents, too. I think the difference is that we were more childcentric at home, but we knew that once we ventured out into The Real World we had to act civilized. It's the difference between dressing for Mass but wearing play clothes around the yard. Being naked and yard-pooping at home, but diapered and toilet-using away from home. Different attitudes (and dress) for different situations. That's where the disconnect is. Either she thinks your home is an extention of hers by virtue of the relationship, or she feels little ones are exempt from social norms of The Real World, or something else entirely - fact is, you're on two different pages. Nobody right, nobody wrong, just different pages.

 

There's no need for that to get in the way of a friendship. Things will even out over the years. You'll find the holes in your own parenting philosophy, as she will hers. Maybe at the same time, maybe at different times. Philosophies are noble, but real life always finds a way of humbling even the most brilliant of us :) You need each other. It might be your turn now to be the one who puts up with her kids, but maybe down the road you'll have cause to rely on her to put up with yours. I've been in your shoes, and this is how I've found the grace to suffer through the phase. And it IS just a phase. People are sometimes worth suffering a mite for, right?

 

I come from a culture that does potty infants, for our own convenience LOL. It was popular in the AP circles when I had my middle kids, but our modern society (lack of extended family, dual-incomes, hyper-extracurriculars etc.) wasn't always the easiest one in which to attempt these methods. I commend the parent who strives for ideals, and tries. The flip side is that some people die on the hills of ideals, never realizing they can tweak an ideal to fit their lifestyle. In a world that's always labeling, and a society that's always looking to fit in, it can become hard to separate one's situation from one's community. I've seen it a lot on these internet forums. You finally find your tribe, so to speak, but instead of making it work for you ... you end up working for IT. That's true whichever end of the parenting spectrum one falls on. She'll figure it out in time. Maybe not on this issue, but in general. We all do. Well, most of us do. Eventually LOL.

 

In your shoes, I'd take advantage of the move to set up a new routine. Instead of meeting weekly, maybe twice monthly with the kids and twice monthly just as moms/adults. Or three times monthly with the kids, and having 1-2 of those times be a public place. You can handle once a month, right? Get it on your calendars as a standing date.

 

And you didn't address it, but given what you write about her I bet she'd be open to you explaining House Rules to her kids. You seem non-threatening, and I'm sure she'd know you had the best of intentions. So I'd take the advice posted earlier about gently, calmly instructing her kids as to house rules re: food, etc. Instead of putting out a bunch of grapes, portion them out. Little annoying things like that to find that middle ground between respecting each of your philosophies. Tell her you're not onboard with the Free Poop thing, and ask how you can support her parenting while {keeping your home hygenic LOL} she's supporting yours, in your own home. Just ask! It's like that thread on the cigarettes, I bet you two could come up with a solution if you let her know what your issues are (aside from being uptight ;) - kidding). Say: I know you're doing your poop thing. I'm a freak about the human poop thing and I can't have poop in my yard or my house. Can we set up a small section of the yard for him with a baby gate? Can we do a cloth diaper while he's here? Can we confine him to the tile area of the kitchen while we sit at the table? What can we do so that my house remains poop-free but he's able to potty-train your way?

 

Brainstorm together. And good luck! Sounds like you have a good foundation - you respect her, even if you disagree with her philosophy. That's an awesome start, especially since I'm sure it's reciprocated.

[Garga]

Couldn't you just say, "hey friend, you know we parent our kids pretty differently, and have different rules for our kids ... Well some of the things your kids are doing in my house are outside my comfort zone and are not things i allow my own kids to do, like run around naked and touch food with unwashed hands. It really stresses me out and then I don't feel like I get to enjoy our visit as much as I'd like. I've struggled with how to tell you this because I don't want you to think I am criticizing you, and I know you have reasons for the choices you make, but I think I would enjoy our visits much more if we met at a park so that I could focus on you and not how your kids are acting in my home."

 

I think this is the best. Tell the truth without blame. Just state the above "we have different rules for our kids". Tell her it bothers you and the solution is to meet elsewhere.

 

Personally, with kids that small, I think meeting in parks is a pain. Maybe she'll think so, too, and enforce socially acceptable rules at your house. Or not. But at least it's not at your house.

[laundrycrisis]

I have known people like this. I have had a close-up view of their thinking and reasoning. I have scaled back friendships over this type of thing. This is right up the same alley as people who are into "elimination communication" expecting that because they choose this approach, everyone else should "respect" their choice and therefore feel it's okay for their kids to run around bare-bottomed and having occasional "misses" in public places or others' homes, or holding a baby over a sink in a public bathroom to pee. Just way out there, very socially unexpected behavior in our society.

 

I would tell her honestly that it appears you and she are on very different pages when it comes to parenting philosophy about setting boundaries for behavior.......and that you are not at all comfortable with nudity, or bodily functions happening in random places.....if you are going to hang out with her and her kids, these things will need to be handled in a more conventional manner while you are together.

 

End of discussion. Ball is then in her court. It is ridiculous of her just to assume that you are okay with her fringe way of giving her kids "freedom" just because you are friends.

[Aspasia]

 

There's no need for that to get in the way of a friendship. Things will even out over the years. You'll find the holes in your own parenting philosophy, as she will hers. Maybe at the same time, maybe at different times. Philosophies are noble, but real life always finds a way of humbling even the most brilliant of us :) You need each other. It might be your turn now to be the one who puts up with her kids, but maybe down the road you'll have cause to rely on her to put up with yours. I've been in your shoes, and this is how I've found the grace to suffer through the phase. And it IS just a phase. People are sometimes worth suffering a mite for, right?

 

 

Definitely. I would never consider not being friends with her. And you're right, we DO need each other. That's part of why we're such good friends--we cry to each other about how hard it is to be home all day with little kids while our husbands work long hours.

 

Just FTR, I have already found many holes in my parenting philosophy. Indeed, the only thing I'm pretty confident about is that kids should poop in diapers or toilets. :lol:

[DianeW88]

Society is going to teach these children some very hard lessons. And it will be FAR worse than what you might say to her in kindness and love. Firmly enforce the rules of your home. If friend doesn't like it...then she can't bring her kids there. And I would NEVER take my children to her home again. Rotovirus is too contagious for that nonsense.

[Tita Gidge]

 

Just FTR, I have already found many holes in my parenting philosophy. Indeed, the only thing I'm pretty confident about is that kids should poop in diapers or toilets. :lol:

 

Yeah, it's kind of like ... wait, how can the entire world not agree on this one?! :huh: :laugh:

 

But my brother is sitting here and when I laughed, he asked what about. When I told him your situation and that above-quoted line, he reminded me that we used to poo in the fields all the time when we were kids. I think I blocked that out LOL. So on behalf of Free Poopers everywhere, my apologies. I'm grossed out thinking about it now.

 

Good gravy, now I'm thinking we were lucky to never get hepatitis since we ate from the fields we were pooping in. Just when I get nostalgic for my childhood, there's a sibling to make sure I'm not romanticizing my memories!

[Laura Corin]

 

Good gravy, now I'm thinking we were lucky to never get hepatitis since we ate from the fields we were pooping in. Just when I get nostalgic for my childhood, there's a sibling to make sure I'm not romanticizing my memories!

 

It just means that no one who was pooping had hepatitis to pass on. Once you get hepatitis into the area/family, that's when it passes by the use of 'night soil' or more casual pooping in the fields.

 

L

[Guest]

A toddler eating from his mom's plate is one thing. That toddler grabbing a scoop of ice cream from his mom's bowl with his bare hand and shoving it in his mouth is ridiculous. A kid fishing ice out of his mom's drink--while she's holding it and sipping it intermittently--with his bare hands is ridiculous. If I share my food with my kids, it's from a spoon. My toddler is expected to eat with utensils, not his bare hands.

 

Toddlers crawling across the table and grabbing food out of a serving bowl doesn't bother you??? In what world is that widely accepted?

 

As for witnessing the pooping incidents, I DO say something when I notice it. The incident with my dh's shoe happened without my knowledge...until I smelled it and saw it on my baby. I did tell my friend, and I did help clean up. The incident with the poop in front of my neighbor's house happened while it was raining. I didn't see it happen. We found it the next morning (dd confirmed that she saw it happen), and what was I supposed to do? Call my friend to come clean it up?

 

I should mention that this is not "just" a friend. Her brother and my sister have a child, so we share a niece. When we moved across the country from our families, this family happened to live where we moved and we have become very close to them. So my relationship with her feels a lot like she's a sister-in-law. But as her children have gotten older, it has become harder and harder to spend time with them.

 

Tonight we went over to her house for her dad's birthday party (something we wouldn't miss as her parents have been incredibly good to us and we really love this guy), and in just one event, the following things happened:

 

-3-year-old peed in a puddle in the sandbox where all the kids were playing

-3-year-old pooped on one of the adirondack chairs (friend laughed and wiped it up)

-2-year-old destroyed the dip by dipping the same chip in it a gazillion times, taking teeny bites in between (friend laughed and said, "I guess he likes the dip!")

-3-year-old ruined half the cake by repeatedly swiping and licking his fingers

 

And this was all totally normal for a event with her kids.

 

See....now not to be rude, but that is the difference between my friends and your "friend". My friends would be mortified if their child did that, and would fall all over themselves to clean it up and make sure it didn't happen again. Likewise...I would be the same if my child did that. There wouldn't be another incident like that, because we would be on high alert to watch our children to make sure it couldn't happen. It isn't just lazy parenting on her part, it is a health hazard. I would have no problems being upfront and direct when it puts the health of others at risk. Just.....gross. :blink:

[AimeeM]

I was with until this (highlighted). Noticing a lot of *I*s and "my children are expected to...". My children (well, the 4 year old and the 1 year old) are welcome to grab from my plate. I have no problem with that (nor does my husband from his plate). Bare hands? No big. Now, the 4 year old is well versed not to do that from the plate of anyone outside of *us*, as will the 1 year old as he gets older, but it's definitely not a big deal in our home. I do not mandate utensils for all food. Ice cream? Sure, use a spoon, but I wouldn't freak if my kid grabbed it with his hands either. Just doesn't register on my radar as odd, personally.

Crawling across the table is a bit more odd, but not heart attack worthy.

 

Now the pooping issues? I've got nothing. I can't even IMAGINE. Bless you for not immediately flipping out - I wouldn't have been able to handle that. My 4 year old is a later bloomer potty training, but I would NEVER consider letting him poop wherever he wants as a solution to that. *gag* Again, I've got nothing there :p

A toddler eating from his mom's plate is one thing. That toddler grabbing a scoop of ice cream from his mom's bowl with his bare hand and shoving it in his mouth is ridiculous. A kid fishing ice out of his mom's drink--while she's holding it and sipping it intermittently--with his bare hands is ridiculous. If I share my food with my kids, it's from a spoon. My toddler is expected to eat with utensils, not his bare hands.

 

Toddlers crawling across the table and grabbing food out of a serving bowl doesn't bother you??? In what world is that widely accepted?

 

As for witnessing the pooping incidents, I DO say something when I notice it. The incident with my dh's shoe happened without my knowledge...until I smelled it and saw it on my baby. I did tell my friend, and I did help clean up. The incident with the poop in front of my neighbor's house happened while it was raining. I didn't see it happen. We found it the next morning (dd confirmed that she saw it happen), and what was I supposed to do? Call my friend to come clean it up?

 

I should mention that this is not "just" a friend. Her brother and my sister have a child, so we share a niece. When we moved across the country from our families, this family happened to live where we moved and we have become very close to them. So my relationship with her feels a lot like she's a sister-in-law. But as her children have gotten older, it has become harder and harder to spend time with them.

 

Tonight we went over to her house for her dad's birthday party (something we wouldn't miss as her parents have been incredibly good to us and we really love this guy), and in just one event, the following things happened:

 

-3-year-old peed in a puddle in the sandbox where all the kids were playing

-3-year-old pooped on one of the adirondack chairs (friend laughed and wiped it up)

-2-year-old destroyed the dip by dipping the same chip in it a gazillion times, taking teeny bites in between (friend laughed and said, "I guess he likes the dip!")

-3-year-old ruined half the cake by repeatedly swiping and licking his fingers

 

And this was all totally normal for a event with her kids.

[GailV]

Thinking about your subject heading for this thread, quite a few species of animals seem to be more on the ball regarding rearing their offspring than someone who lets the poop and pee drop anywhere at the offspring's discretion. It's part of species survival for many. For example, cats would be offended that they're being lumped with this crowd.

[Jean in Newcastle]

It just means that no one who was pooping had hepatitis to pass on. Once you get hepatitis into the area/family, that's when it passes by the use of 'night soil' or more casual pooping in the fields.

 

L

 

 

As someone who has had to take antii-parasitics after having lived in countries where night soil was used as fertilizer, I heartily agree.

[jenbrdsly]

I'm going to risk getting slammed here, but I'd like to offer an alternative viewpoint, one of non-judgment and compassion. What else is this mom dealing with? Does her husband help out? Is she at her wits' end? Does her child have emotional problems? Is there perhaps and underlying developmental disorder?

 

Maybe she knew that if she dealt with the grapes in a different way that would prompt a melt-down that would be more embarrassing than the grapes. Maybe with the poop issue, she's been having and extraordinarily difficult time potty training her son. Maybe him not pooping her his pants is a step in the right direction down a very difficult road. Maybe she didn’t see that he pooped in the neighbor’s yard, or was too embarrassed to address it.

 

I know families like this. (Not mine! Not me!) But I know moms who are dealing with a lot of C-R-A-P, and not just the stuff their kids leave in the yard.

 

So I would offer the idea to look at the whole picture. Put yourself in that’ mom’s shoes. Try to think about the other person’s point of view before you rush to judge.

[JenC3]

You've had great advice so far. My only thought is how long will this friendship with such parenting differences. I have had friends I just can't deal with for long since we do things so differently and parenting is such a huge part of who I am right now. These aren't a few discrepancies in philosophies, these are major approach differences. It will only get worse I'm afraid, these are feral children.

[Library Momma]

Ugh. The kid is naked and pooping on sidewalks. I'm guessing he doesn't wipe himself or wash his hands after he does this. Then he crawls on tables and grabs people's food with with his bare hands. I don't think that I could even touch the doorknob to enter this house. Gross. Just be honest and tell her "Sorry, I draw the line at poop."

[JustEm]

Pooping incident aside, I think everything else those kids did that you mentioned is very normal and acceptable for their ages. Some 3 and 2 year olds are very mature for their age and could easily learn that all of those things are unacceptable. Others won't learn it, no matter how much the parent corrects them, until their maturity level catches up. I know this because my 4.5 year old was extraordinarily easy to teach manners to at a very young age, my 3 year old however is a complete terror! No matter how many times I correct her crawling onto the table she hasn't picked up yet that it is inappropriate. There are many times when I ignore the behavior because I know her reaction to me correcting it will be much worse than the action itself. Since she isn't mature enough to learn it after being told for a year not to do it then why waste my energy and ruin our day by disciplining her for climbing on a table for a few seconds, double dipping a chip, or eating of my plate. I of course don't let her get away with it all the time but I do more often then not when friends are over because its not fair to my guests that our visits are spent with me disciplining my child over pretty silly things

[Aspasia]

I'm going to risk getting slammed here, but I'd like to offer an alternative viewpoint, one of non-judgment and compassion. What else is this mom dealing with? Does her husband help out? Is she at her wits' end? Does her child have emotional problems? Is there perhaps and underlying developmental disorder?

 

Maybe she knew that if she dealt with the grapes in a different way that would prompt a melt-down that would be more embarrassing than the grapes. Maybe with the poop issue, she's been having and extraordinarily difficult time potty training her son. Maybe him not pooping her his pants is a step in the right direction down a very difficult road. Maybe she didn’t see that he pooped in the neighbor’s yard, or was too embarrassed to address it.

 

I know families like this. (Not mine! Not me!) But I know moms who are dealing with a lot of C-R-A-P, and not just the stuff their kids leave in the yard.

 

So I would offer the idea to look at the whole picture. Put yourself in that’ mom’s shoes. Try to think about the other person’s point of view before you rush to judge.

 

I know quite well the things my friend deals with, and she knows the things I deal with. We are close friends. Perhaps there is some judgment on my part (as there is on her part--most of the time, making a decision to do things differently than someone else involves a certain level of judgment), but the main idea behind my issues and this thread is that I'm trying to figure out how to maintain a friendship that I value when I have to tolerate some things that are kind of unbearable.

 

 

[Aspasia]

You've had great advice so far. My only thought is how long will this friendship with such parenting differences. I have had friends I just can't deal with for long since we do things so differently and parenting is such a huge part of who I am right now. These aren't a few discrepancies in philosophies, these are major approach differences. It will only get worse I'm afraid, these are feral children.

 

I definitely have a lot of friends who parent very differently than I do and we don't have a hard time maintaining our friendships at all. This particular issue has become an issue because my friend's style of parenting is affecting ME and my kids. If it didn't, whatever. As long as people aren't abusing their kids, I don't care how they parent. I do find it very fascinating, though, that I can be so similar to someone that we are really good friends, and yet so different in parenting philosophy, but it seems to be a common thread in my life. :)

[FaithManor]

The reason human poo is more BLECH than dog is that it is more microbe infected and it's a body fluid which means it's a hazard. There are very few communicables that jump from dog to human, but there are plenty that come from human to human contact. Human parasites come to mind here as well and I'm no germophobe by any stretch. But, not doing this at other people's homes and NOT cleaning it up immediately are beyond the boundaries of what I would be willing to handle for a playdate.

 

Parents can have diametrically different parenting philosophies and unfortunately, that means deciding whether or not a particular family shares enough of your own values that getting together is a worthwhile endeavor. I would like to suggest that you need some serious boundaries with this mother since this is clearly not your comfort zone. Either they withstand your elucidation of house rules and are willing to abide by them, or they don't come over. Certainly, opting to not socialize with this family is a healthy option. Were it me, I can honestly say that I would drop the relationship. When they call, "I'm sorry, we can't get together." When I move, I would spend a long period of time using caller id to screen phone calls, and not return those phone calls more than once or twice. "We can't together. We are very busy setting up our household." Let time and lack of communication help her take the hint. I mean, you can be direct about the things you do not like, but honestly, most people are not willing to have a non-confrontational discussion of differences in parenting and household rules. It just seems like these things end up with the other person defensive and angry. Life is stressful enough without the confrontation. I think I'd just look for an easy way to let her "move on".

 

Faith

[laundrycrisis]

My guess ? She is not dealing with anything. This is likely a philosophical choice she has made. It's her way of trying to be a crunchy, "natural" parent, a la Continuum Concept, Consensual Living, etc etc etc.

 

I have known some of these folks. I have personally known someone to wait in a parking lot for 2.5 hours until their 2 yo decided to agree with getting buckled into the carseat, allow their 4 yo to hit the walls of the house with a hammer and make holes, repeatedly, with the parental response being to spackle up the holes over and over again, waiting for the child to see the natural consequences of the hammering and voluntarily choose to stop it. I have seen a 10 yo repeatedly run the length of the top of a conference table, waving a light sabre, in a rented meeting room *in a bank*. I have seen a 4 yo run nude around the lawn of a public nature center, when there were lots of other people there. I have seen children be not only allowed but *encouraged* to jump on the couch in a public nature center because, "it's fun to defy gravity". I have seen children threaten to hit other kids, and have it *defended* by their parent when they did it.

 

These children are given *all* of the power and freedom they will take, quite on purpose. They are not taught any boundaries or respect for anyone or anything. Their parents consider themselves to be "more evolved" than those of us who "rigidly impose contrived, unnatural rules".

 

It makes my head spin. It is next to impossible to discuss any of this with these types of parents. They are very deep into these ideas.

 

My experience with these folks is that only other families who choose the same way of living with children can tolerate their company.

 

Good luck with this OP ! I think you will need it.

 

 

 

I'm going to risk getting slammed here, but I'd like to offer an alternative viewpoint, one of non-judgment and compassion. What else is this mom dealing with? Does her husband help out? Is she at her wits' end? Does her child have emotional problems? Is there perhaps and underlying developmental disorder?

 

Maybe she knew that if she dealt with the grapes in a different way that would prompt a melt-down that would be more embarrassing than the grapes. Maybe with the poop issue, she's been having and extraordinarily difficult time potty training her son. Maybe him not pooping her his pants is a step in the right direction down a very difficult road. Maybe she didn’t see that he pooped in the neighbor’s yard, or was too embarrassed to address it.

 

I know families like this. (Not mine! Not me!) But I know moms who are dealing with a lot of C-R-A-P, and not just the stuff their kids leave in the yard.

 

So I would offer the idea to look at the whole picture. Put yourself in that’ mom’s shoes. Try to think about the other person’s point of view before you rush to judge.

[bolt.]

I totally get it! It's really hard being close with a parent that parents totally differently from you. It's tough when you are the one left uncomfortable.

 

In general, I'd suggest meeting "out" at locations that are conducive to toddlers doing rambunctious things.

 

If that's not an option here are my specific ideas about having them in your space:

 

I have a friend who I adore. Like, I really, really like hanging out with her. But her kids are so hard to be around. I swear, I have an anxiety attack every time they come over. They are 3 1/2 and 2 years old. They are completely out of control, climbing on everything in my house, throwing things, stepping on things, etc. And she doesn't try to stop them.

Try to figure out if you are concerned about the safety (or good conduct) of the *children* or the safety of your *things*... then stop worrying about the children (her business) but make firm boundary statements about your things. Say to her, "I don't think my coffee table is strong enough for him to crawl on. Would you mind getting him down, thanks?" If you become very repetitive she will begin to anticipate what you are going to say, and (probably, eventually) react to what she is beginning to grasp. Assist her in this by using very similar phrasing each time, like a broken record: "I don't think... would you mind... thanks."

 

One of the recent goodies was when the 3-year-old grabbed a whole bunch of grapes out of a bowl on my table and just started biting grapes off! He wasn't picking them off with his fingers and popping them in is mouth--he was biting them off. And my friend did nothing to stop him.

Consider yourself hostess to a child. I'd suggest gently removing it from his hands, clipping off a reasonable bunch and putting it in his own bowl with a kind statement like, "Oh, they're not all for you, sweetheart! These can be yours!" Then quickly and covertly put the rest of the temptation as out-of-sight-out-of-mind as you can.

 

She lets him run around naked outside in their backyard. Fine. I don't care what people do in their backyards.

Do you mean that you don't mind it in *her* back yard, or that you are also comfortable permitting it in *your* back yard?

 

But he isn't potty trained and he will just poop wherever he is and she doesn't seem to think that's crazy.

It isn't crazy. There is nothing inherently grosser about human poop than animal poop, and most people are comfortable letting animal poop lay around for a few days or a week before poop-scooping their yards.

 

Last time we went to their house, my 2-year-old unknowingly stepped in it, then took his shoes off inside. Then my baby got her hands on the shoes and I found her covered in this little boy's poop! Again, friend thought nothing of this.

If he had stepped in doggie doo from a family pet, you would have been grossed out, but you wouldn't have *blamed* anyone.

 

She thinks being covered in human poop is a part of parenting small children. She has said that to me.

It is. You get poop on you. You wash it off. You do that daily, for years. It *is* a major facet of parenting small children. It's not exactly being "covered in it" but you often feel like it! (And that's if you are lucky enough not to have a little 'artist' -- if you get one of those, you get used to that too.)

 

Yesterday, they came over to our house and the kids were all running around outside in the rain. Her son ended up stripping down. This morning, there is poop on the sidewalk in front of my neighbor's house and it is NOT dog poop!

 

I don't know how to deal with this. Most immediately, what am I supposed to do about the poop?

Since it is now a "known issue" part of her heading home from your place needs to be the part where you stop her and say, "Hey, the kids were outside today. I've got this plastic bag for you so that you can check around and see if Jr has left any surprises for you to clean up. I'll <give the kids a freezie> while you do that."

 

It's the principle of "You reap what you sow." -- Her kids, her decisions, her job to poop-scoop. You don't need to take it too seriously, but you do need to feel good about making sure she gets left 'holding the bag'. Your reactions will only become worse if you feel like you are left with the fallout. Honestly, if it's nothing to her, it should be no problem to her to manage whatever she needs to manage. If it's indoors, it's paper towels and cleaning spray -- don't tell her you will help her, she is responsible for what she allows... but you don't need to be harsh-spoken about it. If she lets it happen, then cleans it up, that's no different from it never having happened in the first place.

 

But how do I deal with this in general? I love this friend, but I can't be around her kids. I don't think all that stress is good for my heart!

You can be around her kids if you consider them very firmly "None of my business unless they are changing something *concretely significant* about my life." -- Are they making *her* life harder than it needs to be? Who cares? None of your business. Are they going to grow up into hooligans and criminals? None of your business. Are they going to damage you, you children or your belongings -- Yeah, there's your line. When they hit your line, you use your script: "This is how it is effecting my *concrete* life (not my emotions, or my sensibilities of what ought to be, or my sense of cleanliness on behalf of others) and this is what I would like you to do about it at this point." -- Sometimes proceeding to, "Can we talk about how to prevent this in the future?"

 

If she hears that with a straight face and says, "No." -- then you've got an issue. If she generally receives your message and remedies the things that actually impact you, or at least honestly tries to do so, I think you can release her from your more values-based objections to her parenting philosophy.

[Tita Gidge]

It just means that no one who was pooping had hepatitis to pass on. Once you get hepatitis into the area/family, that's when it passes by the use of 'night soil' or more casual pooping in the fields.

 

L

 

 

That's a relief to know. It's kind of funny, too, since it's considered third world and no one we knew was vaccinated for hepatitis! Guess it's another example of a "miracle we managed to survive our childhoods" sort of like mandatory car seats and seatbelts LOL.

 

 

As someone who has had to take antii-parasitics after having lived in countries where night soil was used as fertilizer, I heartily agree.

 

 

THAT sounds positively AWFUL. What an experience that must of been, yuck!

[GailV]

 

 

It isn't crazy. There is nothing inherently grosser about human poop than animal poop, and most people are comfortable letting animal poop lay around for a few days or a week before poop-scooping their yards.

 

 

Actually, that's not true. See above comments concerning hepatitis, parasites, and other communicable diseases. Animal scat varies widely in its grossness.

 

 

 

If he had stepped in doggie doo from a family pet, you would have been grossed out, but you wouldn't have *blamed* anyone.

 

Frankly, I would have blamed the owner for not cleaning up after their dog, unless they'd given fair warning that they hadn't cleaned the yard. I have no problem with assigning that sort of blame.

[unsinkable]

This article is from STFU parents...a blog that posts real tweets and Facebook posts that are TMI.

 

Warning...this one is gross, gross, gross. A mom posted a BM on a lunch plate.

 

 

http://www.stfuparentsblog.com/post/52152818103/tease-reveal-lunch-edition

 

 

[bolt.]

Actually, that's not true. See above comments concerning hepatitis, parasites, and other communicable diseases. Animal scat varies widely in its grossness.

I was thinking about the fecal matter of a first world toddler -- a toddler whose mother handles his feces every day, and has done since the day he was born. if he had severe parasites or hepatitis or another communicable disease with symptoms, I'd imagine that would be something not unknown to his mother.

 

In any case the OP was clearly on the side that it was gross and uncivilized. She did not mention any particular worry that it might be a health hazard.

 

Frankly, I would have blamed the owner for not cleaning up after their dog, unless they'd given fair warning that they hadn't cleaned the yard. I have no problem with assigning that sort of blame.

I was thinking, again, without exactly typing all the details -- something analogous to the children out playing together... the children out playing *with* a pet that had pooped *during* the play time.

 

Sorry for my lack of clarity. I shouldn't make broad statements when I'm actually thinking in fairly specific ideas.

[Alte Veste Academy]

This article is from STFU parents...a blog that posts real tweets and Facebook posts that are TMI.

 

Warning...this one is gross, gross, gross. A mom posted a BM on a lunch plate.

 

 

http://www.stfuparentsblog.com/post/52152818103/tease-reveal-lunch-edition

 

I am scarred for life.

[unsinkable]

 

 

I am scarred for life.

 

I know. I can't figure it out. Did the kid poop on the plate? And then the mom took a picture of it?

 

It's bizarre.

 

STFU parents is FILLED with poop posts...don't go clicking around or you might see the pic of a toddler with a hunk of poop stuck to his head.

[RemsMom]

nm