Checking my Views on this with the Hive...Test related

[PachiSusan]

A 2nd grade public school child is taking a math test. It's 3 pages long. The child was told at the beginning of the test that the first page was front AND back.

 

Child hands in test but neglects to do back of page 1.

 

Discussion ensues on another board I go to. It ranges from "Too bad, she misses them all" to "That's so wrong - help the child out and ask them to do the page over" and everything in between.

 

One side won overwhelmingly. I'm just wondering what the hive's opinions on this would be.

 

If your child came home with a C on a test because she was told but neglected to do one back side of a test, would you confront the teacher and demand your child be given the right to take that page after the fact, or would you let the grade stand?

 

Discuss. I'll add in the results later. :)

[Aslana]

Public School? I'm afraid I'd teach it as a lesson in time management. Sadly. I have one child who would be the one who forgot to do the back. And I have told her that we just have to let it go. It's one C and a C is not failing.

 

I most definitely would NOT argue with the school over it. That smacks too much of "special snowflake" status to me.

[bolt.]

I would simply make an opportunity for the child to "do" the page s/he neglected, and score it myself. That *is* 'right to take the test again after the fact' -- and I am free to go ahead and give my child that right, if I want to. (Presupposing that the completed test was brought home? Not just a note about the grade or something?)

 

That would lead me to offer the child the following feedback: "Your knowledge of the topic is (poor/average/good/excellent). If you had done the whole test, your knowledge would have earned you X%." --- wait and enjoy that moment, if appropriate --- "However, a person's grades according to the school are not based on how much they really know. They are based on what you show by the work you pass in. Doing school successfully is about more than knowing what you are supposed to learn, you are also supposed to learn things like remembering to look on both sides of the test. This test helped you learn to remember that. So now you can do a good job of that, and you are (reasonably good) at the topic itself. I'm so proud of you."

 

I would make no effort to contact the school. I have absolutely no reason to care about the "official grades" of a 2nd grade student, and I'd rather my child put the learning experience well behind her.

[SarahW]

In a college setting the response would always be "too bad, so sad." I know this just because.

 

Whatever response is taken with a 2nd grader it should lead them to understand that "too bad, so sad" will be the only response in the future.

[Luckymama]

I would let the grade stand but have the child do the problems at home. Learning to follow directions is an important life skill.

[cbollin]

I'd hug my kid. wipe her tears (because my kid would feel sad and mad about it). and say "next time you'll remember." don't fret this one test. and I"d listen if the child needed to whine or get something to eat and move on..

I might ask the teacher "please tell me, my kid wasn't the only one, right?" but more than likely I wouldn't do that unless I talked often with the teacher. I don't see any reason from the description to ask to take it again or ask for make up test or anything.

[Hypatia.]

I would let the grade stand and have it be a learning experience for my child about following directions and glancing back over your work before turning anything in. Yes, 7/8 is young and the "lesson" may not stick, but it's better learned in 2nd grade than in high school or college. I may have the child do the missed page at home if I needed to know more about her level of knowledge in the area.

[Alice]

Public school? I wouldn’t fight the grade even if I though the teacher should have given her some grace. One 2nd grade math test score isn’t going to make that much difference in life. I’d make sure the child didn’t think it was too terrible of a thing and move on. I think by going in an fighting it the child would learn both that parents will step in and fight their battles (not always a bad thing) but also they will learn that doing poorly on a math test is a huge deal. I would save fighting for my child for more important battles.

 

Homeschool? I’d let her do it over. But I also wouldn’t be giving grades in 2nd grade so it wouldn’t matter.

 

I do teach a high-school class for homeschoolers where I have a couple of kids who over and over don’t read the directions and so end up with much lower scores than they should. If there is a question that has three parts they will read it and answer just the first part. I don’t give them any slack in high school as I feel like they need to learn this lesson now before college.

[T'smom]

Oh, that's so sad. I'm with the others that said they wouldn't throw a fit about it with the teacher, it's just not worth it. But, I have been a public school teacher (5th and 6th grades) and I would have let them finish it. Maybe during recess or something with a lecture about listening and following directions. But there is no way I wouldn't let them finish.

[CupOCoffee]

Pretty much agree with most other posters: let the grade stand, let the student finish it for you so you know their skill, take the teaching moment and teach child about carefully looking at work before turning in, etc., etc. I would NOT make a stink with the school; and I would NOT make it a huge deal with my child.

 

~coffee~

[kdownie]

Public school? I wouldn’t fight the grade even if I though the teacher should have given her some grace. One 2nd grade math test score isn’t going to make that much difference in life. I’d make sure the child didn’t think it was too terrible of a thing and move on. I think by going in an fighting it the child would learn both that parents will step in and fight their battles (not always a bad thing) but also they will learn that doing poorly on a math test is a huge deal. I would save fighting for my child for more important battles.

 

 

:iagree:

[happypamama]

I agree with the PPs who said they'd let the grade stand, but comfort the child, congratulate him/her on the ones he/she did get right, and hope it's a learning experience. I have one child who is very prone to skipping problems or making careless mistakes, and as we've pointed out, it doesn't matter how good Daddy is at math; a skipped portion of an estimate, or a careless math error can mean a lot of money lost for his company, which means lost paychecks for a lot of people, including himself. I think there is definitely room for grace, but I think it has to do with habits, too -- is this a one-off thing (in which case, the child will probably learn from it and be even more careful in the future), or is it a common mistake? In the latter case, I'd be working hard on teaching the child strategies to combat such things, because the reality is that a child is always going to have to learn to compensate for his/her weaknesses. I'd still be gentle about it, but I'd brainstorm with the child (and with the teacher, if need be) ways to make sure the child finishes all of the problems. (And at the second grade level, I'd think the teacher would need to do more than one reminder about all three pages -- maybe 15 minutes before the time was up, the teacher could say, "You have 15 minutes left; please be sure you've filled in all three pages, including the back of the first page." Or something like that.)

[PachiSusan]

Thank you Ladies. It is exactly how I thought: You would answer thoughtfully and with care about the child, but realizing that the child needs to learn to follow directions and not have Mommy come attack the school at every opportunity.

 

The answers at the other board were overwhelmingly that my special snowflake should have been given a second chance regardless of the fact that they were warned there was a back page and told to be very careful and check their work. Most would have confronted the teacher and demanded the grade be changed and the child allowed to retake the test.

 

I remember when I was in 3rd grade. Our teacher gave us a test. She said very deliberately "Please read ALL directions and problems before picking up your pencil and doing the test".

 

I grabbed my pencil, wrote my name on the top, and proceeded to TRY to do the test. I was almost in tears because I didn't know the answers to any of the problems, so I was guessing. I looked up and people were handing in their tests right away and I felt even WORSE. Finally I got to the end of the test. It said 20. DO NOT DO ANY PART OF THIS TEST. Simply write your name in the top right corner and hand in your test to the teacher. Thank you for reading all the test and directions first before starting.

 

I never did another test ever again without reading all directions and every question first. I learned my lesson. I think it's an important one to learn - and at a young age, especially if you're in the BM school system.

[cbollin]

If I were the 2nd grade teacher..I picture my ideal self..... when each child turned in the test, I start saying with a mostly happy smile "before you give it to me, check to make sure you got the back side of page 1"... and hopefully they'd look.

[PachiSusan]

 

Well, I would probably not have said anything to the teacher, that is her policy and my opinion on it isn't worth undermining her. BUT I still think the teacher is being a hard @$$.

 

 

My third grade teacher, or the teacher in the original post? I have no idea if she was being hard assed or not, and I don't know if she changed said child's grade. That information wasn't given in the thread.

[cbollin]

I remember when I was in 3rd grade. Our teacher gave us a test. She said very deliberately "Please read ALL directions and problems before picking up your pencil and doing the test".

 

I grabbed my pencil, wrote my name on the top, and proceeded to TRY to do the test. I was almost in tears because I didn't know the answers to any of the problems, so I was guessing. I looked up and people were handing in their tests right away and I felt even WORSE. Finally I got to the end of the test. It said 20. DO NOT DO ANY PART OF THIS TEST. Simply write your name in the top right corner and hand in your test to the teacher. Thank you for reading all the test and directions first before starting.

 

I never did another test ever again without reading all directions and every question first. I learned my lesson.

 

 

after reading that part I have to share this story... I was in college and walked past the psychology dept and offered to sign up for a test. quick money right? enough for pizza that night.

I get there with a few friends. I read my directions and did what they said. Read the materials and relaxed. The other 3 people were frantically studying their papers. I knew right away: they have a different test with different instructions, or they didn't see it said open notes for the test"

 

yep.. sure 'nuf. the testing person came in. Took our study guides. and asked questions expecting me to mess up because I hadn't studied. I simply said "the directions said it was open book on my study guide. So can I have it back?". Turned out the other people had different directions "this will be a closed book test."

I never knew what the phd students thought of it all.... weird... I don't know what they were studying on us. LOL

[RootAnn]

I remember when I was in 3rd grade. Our teacher gave us a test. She said very deliberately "Please read ALL directions and problems before picking up your pencil and doing the test".

...

I never did another test ever again without reading all directions and every question first. I learned my lesson.

 

 

This is absolutely a great way to learn your lesson. (Not the 2nd grader accidentally missing the back side of a page, but Susan's 3rd grade teacher's lesson.)

 

My older sister had been taught that you should quickly look all the way through a test before starting at the beginning. However, she never did this. One year, she went into a large room testing situation (State Future Business Leaders of America Conference) and immediately started into that specific test. About ten minutes in, the proctors came around and collected all the exams. They were handed back out again a few minutes later without the answers that had been accidentally copied and stapled onto the back. There were some surprise people at the top of that exam (who went on to not do well at Nationals).

 

My sister, to this day, remembers to look all the way through a document before starting to read it from the front. She said that at least she could have alerted the proctors earlier than ten minutes in.

[maize]

How I would approach this would partially depend on the child in question. If this were my oldest, she would be absolutely devastated at the grade. On the one hand, it could be a good lesson in learning to take your falls and move on; on the other, it would honestly cause her way more distress than is warranted by any test and could potentially lead to years of problems with testing anxiety etc.. I would likely at least make an attempt to get the teacher to let her retake the portion she forgot.

 

With my other children, I would likely just let them learn whatever lesson they could from the experience and move on. It's not as if 2nd grade grades are of lasting importance in a child's life...

[PachiSusan]

 

No I just mean I can't believe it would even come down to whether or not I said anything to the teacher about it. The teacher should have assumed the kid accidentally skipped a page and let the kid finish. But if the teacher did not, I wouldn't say anything, but would feel like she was being mean for not allowing the child to finish.

 

Hopefully I'm making sense!

 

 

Yes, you make perfect sense. I was just clarifying. For all we know the teacher had been working on "following directions and being careful" because the standardized tests were coming and they couldn't help then...I dunno. I was just surprised at how quickly people turned to "HOW UNFAIR" without even thinking that a lesson might be able to be learned and that the teacher might just care about her students learning the lesson.

[PachiSusan]

Well actually, with the standardized tests, if others are anything like the CAT they are allowed to coach, redirect, etc. during the test for anything related to filling out the bubble sheet. According to the instructions for the CAT I used it said I could assist my son with making sure he didn't skip stuff on the bubble sheet. Not with the content of the questions, but if I saw him, for example, skip a section or not fill out the bubble entirely, etc. I was allowed to point that out to him.

 

And I think that's perfectly fair. It shouldn't be about those dumb details. Especially not for a little kid!

 

I'll go back and read the thread and see if any more information was posted...nope, just that the teacher marked it wrong and the OP didn't go to the school and demand it to be changed, but most of the responders did.

[TraceyS/FL]

Hmmm, i have a 2nd grade PS kid - and she has a first year teacher. She HAS skipped some problems on tests - i've asked her about it and she just has missed them (she has slight vision tracking issues). I don't think her teacher would, however, allow them to miss a whole page. Not unless there was A LOT of prompting.

 

Some of the kids haven't made the total transition from learning to read to reading to learn - I think that could factor into how much "help" i would expect.

 

But, I routinely tell my DD that I don't care about her grades it is just a reflection on how well she is being taught the material... oh and if we practiced the spelling words (73% this week. Oops!)

[bolt.]

I don't care about grades either -- they are absolutely an indication of how well she is being taught at that age, and pretty much nothing else.

 

My DD-then-7 on a 'science' test of a unit on 'building things' (usually with paper and craft materials) had a question to: "Draw and name two fasteners." (Expecting things like tape, glue, paperclips, bag ties, etc.) DD drew two paper clips. She gave them smiley faces, hair and feet. Underneath, she gave them each a name, something like Sally and Suzie. I really didn't think it was her fault that the instructions on the question clearly allowed for *that* response... she still didn't get that question right.

 

That was when I realized that 'testing' small children is both tricky and pretty funny.

[PachiSusan]

I don't care about grades either -- they are absolutely an indication of how well she is being taught at that age, and pretty much nothing else.

 

My DD-then-7 on a 'science' test of a unit on 'building things' (usually with paper and craft materials) had a question to: "Draw and name two fasteners." (Expecting things like tape, glue, paperclips, bag ties, etc.) DD drew two paper clips. She gave them smiley faces, hair and feet. Underneath, she gave them each a name, something like Sally and Suzie. I really didn't think it was her fault that the instructions on the question clearly allowed for *that* response... she still didn't get that question right.

 

That was when I realized that 'testing' small children is both tricky and pretty funny.

 

Thats so cute!! And SOOOO Melissa...

[regentrude]

I would let it stand. My child would be very mad at herself, and would never again make this kind of mistake. Good lesson learned.

It is 2nd grade, so it is not as if the child's future depended on the grade.

[skeeterbug]

Well I do think it is a bit odd for the teacher not to check that they completed it all and hand it back immediately for a second grader, unless the point was to get them to follow instructions. But I don't think I'd call the teacher. Lesson learned, moving on, I know it's upsetting but you'll remember next time.

 

I remember when I was in 3rd grade. Our teacher gave us a test. She said very deliberately "Please read ALL directions and problems before picking up your pencil and doing the test".

 

I grabbed my pencil, wrote my name on the top, and proceeded to TRY to do the test. I was almost in tears because I didn't know the answers to any of the problems, so I was guessing. I looked up and people were handing in their tests right away and I felt even WORSE. Finally I got to the end of the test. It said 20. DO NOT DO ANY PART OF THIS TEST. Simply write your name in the top right corner and hand in your test to the teacher. Thank you for reading all the test and directions first before starting.

 

I never did another test ever again without reading all directions and every question first. I learned my lesson. I think it's an important one to learn - and at a young age, especially if you're in the BM school system.

 

 

I remember having a test like this in 4th grade. We were supposed to read the whole thing first and the very last one said not to do any of it. But the problems were called 'exercises' which really confused the class. Many of us read that part but didn't understand what the 'exercises' were and so we did them all anyway. I was pretty annoyed.

[TraceyS/FL]

I don't care about grades either -- they are absolutely an indication of how well she is being taught at that age, and pretty much nothing else.

 

My DD-then-7 on a 'science' test of a unit on 'building things' (usually with paper and craft materials) had a question to: "Draw and name two fasteners." (Expecting things like tape, glue, paperclips, bag ties, etc.) DD drew two paper clips. She gave them smiley faces, hair and feet. Underneath, she gave them each a name, something like Sally and Suzie. I really didn't think it was her fault that the instructions on the question clearly allowed for *that* response... she still didn't get that question right.

 

That was when I realized that 'testing' small children is both tricky and pretty funny.

 

HA. The other day as she was handing me papers she said... "i'm sorry, I drew all over my papers again - I just can't help it!"

 

It is cute, she has this gel pen that has like 5 colors of ink in it. She takes it to school and doodles with it ALL.OVER.HER.PAPERS. to try to get it to change!

 

Love the paperclips!!

[Arcadia]

Well I do think it is a bit odd for the teacher not to check that they completed it all and hand it back immediately for a second grader, unless the point was to get them to follow instructions. .

 

 

In school, a teacher gives out a test and collects it back at the same time for everyone. The teacher marks it later. By the time the teacher realised that any child has missed out questions, the child might have already gone for recess, lunch or home. The 2nd grade class has an average of 30 students in my district. It takes awhile for a teacher to skim through a stack of test papers.

[Ellie]

It's a test. Everything counts on a test, including not following directions. Second chances on homework or other assignments, yes; but on a test...no. Not even at home (not that I would actually test a 7yo at home, but still... :D )

[skeeterbug]

In school, a teacher gives out a test and collects it back at the same time for everyone. The teacher marks it later. By the time the teacher realised that any child has missed out questions, the child might have already gone for recess, lunch or home. The 2nd grade class has an average of 30 students in my district. It takes awhile for a teacher to skim through a stack of test papers.

 

 

I was picturing the student walking up to the teacher's desk to hand it in as they finish. In that case the teacher would be able to just flip the page over and check. But not so easy in the scenario you describe.

[Arcadia]

 

 

I was picturing the student walking up to the teacher's desk to hand it in as they finish. In that case the teacher would be able to just flip the page over and check. But not so easy in the scenario you describe.

 

For state standardized tests, kids are allowed to hand in early and leave. Teachers will usually do a quick check.

For usual class test, most teachers collect at the end of test as it is less distracting to the other students who are still doing.

[kiwik]

I was going to say it depends on when the test is finished. If it is finished early then reminding the child to check seems reasonable if they didn't finish the rest then it doesn't really matter.

 

Personally I would put the instructions on the board with CHECK you have answered all the questions in large letters, followed by signal me so i can give you a book or whatever. That way they would be reminded again.

[sueh16]

If I were the teacher I would make sure the child had done all three pages before I'd grade the test or I wouldn't give a three-page test with one double- page to a second grader. I'm saying this because many young kids have trouble figuring out how to turn pages in a packet while making sure they are on the right page. I used to teach third grade and at the beginning of the school year I had to give the kids quite a bit of instruction on basic organizational skills, such as that one. I was surprised at how much time I had to spend and how specific I had to be. For a second grader, forgetting to do the back of a page is most likely due to immaturity rather than carelessness.

 

That said, if I were the mom of this particular child, I would go over the test with my son or daughter and show him/her how to flip the packet correctly to complete the test, but I would also respect the teacher's decision to let the grade stand.

[TraceyS/FL]

I have to laugh... my 2nd grader takes a "reading/vocabulary/grammar" test each week... 6 pages (12 sides), front and back, stapled along the edge to make it a book. Fill in the bubble answers except one written, and one oral reading speed test.

 

It is safe to say that the kids in that class have learned to check the back side of the pages by now - and oh how I despise that they are tested like this each week..... Their math tests tend to be all fill in the bubble too.

 

But if a front and back test was not the norm, then the teacher should have done a reminder at some point.....

 

Oh, and apparently when asked what kind of bee she would like to be, she picked Queen so she could do nothing but lay around and just lay the eggs! LOL!! (That was the written portion)

[TraceyS/FL]

I don't understand why the teacher didn't have the kid do the missed page. If she wants to count that against the kid in terms of the grade, fine (although for 2nd grade that seems excessively harsh). Isn't the point of the test to measure if the child learned/understands the concepts? If the kid doesn't do half the test, how will the teacher know? Or is it that the teacher doesn't give a damn? KWIM? I don't think the teacher is doing her/his job if she doesn't care to know if the child understands the math.

 

I agree.... so we have taught them the skill of trying to remember directions while also trying to do their best on math.... but we have no idea if they know how to do the math, which is what the test was theoretically about.

 

And, I think i'd want to know how many kids forgot to do the back page - if it was a decent chunk, then again we have a teacher problem.

[Mommy22alyns]

Pretty much agree with most other posters: let the grade stand, let the student finish it for you so you know their skill, take the teaching moment and teach child about carefully looking at work before turning in, etc., etc. I would NOT make a stink with the school; and I would NOT make it a huge deal with my child.

 

~coffee~

 

 

Yes, this exactly.

 

ETA: Susan, did that one go south? I can't find it.

[Tracy]

Is the child being tested on the content of the test, or is the child being tested on his executive skills? That is really the question here. If you are testing my 2nd grader on the content, she will get them all right. She is a bright girl. But if you are testing on executive skills, she will get a C every time. Making her take a C in the hopes that she will learn an important life lesson would result in extreme discouragement. She may very well learn that it is not worth even trying.

[mom2bee]

I think I agree with the overwhelming majority: Do not confront the teacher, a single test in 2nd Grade isn't anything major in life (though it can feel like it at the time if your dd was emotionally invested.)

 

I don't think the teacher is especially a hard a$$ for not giving grace, since she'd given a warning. But I think that if I were the teacher, I'd have said, once more as children began to hand in their tests: "Did everyone remember to look on both sides of the test papers? Please check that you did the whole test."

 

This is an opportunity for a life lesson, following directions, especially in a PS, just too important. They have to manage hundreds of kids and its just easier if they learn the value of following directions (the fact that sometimes those directions are foolish is another story all together).

 

Why the teacher printed page 1 double sided and pages 2 and 3 single sided, is, in itself a mystery to me, but what ever...

[Kathryn]

 

 

For state standardized tests, kids are allowed to hand in early and leave. Teachers will usually do a quick check.

For usual class test, most teachers collect at the end of test as it is less distracting to the other students who are still doing.

 

Really? I don't ever remember that happening when I was in school. We always turned in tests when done so we could do something else (read, do homework, etc.).

[PachiSusan]

Really? I don't ever remember that happening when I was in school. We always turned in tests when done so we could do something else (read, do homework, etc.).

 

On IOWA testing days, we were told to bring a book to read in case we finished any part early.