Do homeschooled teens become drug/alcohol addicted?

[garddwr]

You and your siblings, especially your brothers, if you have them should stay on top of this. Reduce other risk factors as much as possible. But really, the genetic component of early heart attacks is huge.

 

I know, it was quite eye-opening to me when someone pointed out the consistent family history. Sigh.

[garddwr]

FWIW, teenagers in the UK are allowed to drink at home. Husband and I model moderate drinking and introduce the same habits to our children while they are at home and before they can drive.

 

Laura

 

 

I don't see how this could help though if some kids have a genetic predisposition towards alcoholism. If I am understanding correctly, there are some people who could become addicted to alcohol even through occasional "responsible" drinking.

[Laura Corin]

I don't see how this could help though if some kids have a genetic predisposition towards alcoholism. If I am understanding correctly, there are some people who could become addicted to alcohol even through occasional "responsible" drinking.

 

 

I don't know enough about alcoholism that runs in families; perhaps if my family had a history of addiction I would act differently.

 

However, there are plenty of teenagers and young people who, whilst not alcoholics as such, do not learn how to drink responsibly - rates of cirrhosis of the liver amongst young people in the UK are rising very fast and drink/driving continues amongst the young.

 

My parents brought me up to have the odd drink as a teenager. When I went away to university, drink was not a forbidden fruit: I certainly did drink, but not in any excessive or dangerous way. This seems to be a reasonable pattern to perpetuate, as it is unlikely that my boys will abstain from alcohol for their whole lives.

 

Laura

[8circles]

INSULTING?

 

No, it's not insulting to state that trying alcohol or other drugs is not a character flaw.

 

It would be insulting to denigrate a faith tradition that is against all alcohol or other drugs. It would be insulting to discuss the relative intelligence of being against alcohol or other drugs.

 

It would be insulting to say a lot of things in this context.

 

But, no, it's not insulting to assert that it is not a character defect to try alcohol or other drugs. It might, however, be insulting to assert that the disease of addiction is due to a character flaw.

 

 

I'm against recreational drug use & am not totally comfortable with alcohol in general (although I have an occasional drink myself) and I don't hold a casual view of sex which I think is how Joanne meant it (forgive me if I'm wrong). But I 'liked' Joanne's original post stating that they aren't character flaws because I agree with the spirit behind her statement. Addiction is not begun by a character flaw. I have an addiction which I really struggle with & it has nothing to do with a character flaw. (it also isn't drugs, alcohol, or sex)

 

ETA: Oh, I also agree with Joanne's quoted post.

[Joanne]

 

 

This is a good point. We clearly have done something right re: smoking, right??

 

There was a horrendous case of drunk driving near Seattle recently. I absolutely loathe drunk driving. I'm not sure why more states cannot put stricter standards in place for that. People die all the time because of drunk drivers. Does FL still have the "3 strike" law?

 

 

 

States have very strict laws on the books. How it plays out in reality digresses from the books.

 

I deal, every day, with this population. The expectations can be major and last years.

 

Or not.

 

[laughing lioness]

It is not a character flaw to try drugs, alcohol, or have sex.

 

 

Within some religions it is. Saying it isn't doesn't make it so or not so. It cuts both ways. If I stated that it WAS a character flaw to try drugs, alcohol or to have sex, that would be imposing a world view which I'm pretty sure you would find insulting.

 

12 step programs, which are at the heart of healing addictions, places a great emphasis on a value system (one's higher power), as well as on taking inventory and confession. This would suggest that their is a certain amount of personal culpability, as one works through the process of recovery.

 

Have you read the peer reviewed, researched, and substantiated material on how chemicals function in the brain of a predisposed individual vs. that of a recreational, non addicted user?

 

The progression of addiction has all the characteristics of disease, and the scientific effect of chemicals on the predisposed brain has *nothing* to do with character.

 

 

 

And yet research is managed and aportioned all the time for political ends. The bell curve come to mind and does the well documented research that Head Start programs have no long term affects on the success of participants. You don't see funding cut, despite the research. There are certain "documented" facts that are kept totally hush hush because they don't fit political agendas.

 

 

Progression of a disease vs. why someone initially particapates in something that might/might not form a habit/addiction are 2 different discussions. Again, not everyone, even in the mental health/medical field agrees about defining addiction as disease.

[*Lulu*]

Nm

[albeto]

12 step programs, which are at the heart of healing addictions, places a great emphasis on a value system (one's higher power), as well as on taking inventory and confession. This would suggest that their is a certain amount of personal culpability, as one works through the process of recovery.

 

All it suggests is that people who believe behavior can be positively changed by virtue of this kind of group therapy are drawn to this kind of group therapy.

 

Until one can define what a "character flaw" is, it's rather useless to use it as a source of measurement.

[goldberry]

I have thrown bottles of nearly full pain meds in the trash after recovery. Recently , since we are moving, I did a sweep of drawers. I can't tell you how many Oxy tablets I had to dump. 4 people in my family have had teeth pulled in the past couple of years. What I tossed due to disinterest/non addiction was pretty massive.

 

 

This is me too.

 

My sister, on the other hand, has been on painkillers a long time for chronic (medically documented x-ray-MRI-etc) back problems. Her pain is real, I don't dispute it at all. But now she has a problem with painkillers. When she was in my house she found a 5 year old prescription from a dentist appointment that we never used in the far backs of my cabinet and asked if she could take it for a "headache"....

 

I have seen enough addiction resulting from medically prescribed substances to know that didn't start as a character flaw. She didn't go out and SEEK drugs. She was prescribed medically legal drugs for a legitimate medical conditions...and that triggered something for her.

 

No, that is not the case with everyone...but some definitely yes.

[Dicentra]

A tendency towards addiction does not just mean drugs & alcohol. Many people have addictions to things such as food, gambling, sex, etc. You can not avoid all dopamine related activities your entire life.

 

 

In "The Hidden Gifts of the Introverted Child" by Marti Laney, there's a section exploring the relationship between dominant neurotransmitters and introversion/extroversion. (Neurotransmitters are chemicals in the brain that either excite or inhibit a brain cell. When they excite a chain of brain cells, it looks like a row of tumbling dominoes. When they inhibit, they tell the dominoes not to tumble. (Laney's definition - I borrowed it. :))) Introverts tend to have a more dominant acetylcholine pathway and extroverts tend to have a more dominant dopamine pathway. From the book:

 

* Acetylcholine says, "Let's think about it." This is the superstar of thought, concentration, and voluntary movement. It controls vital activities that govern arousal, attention, awareness, perceptual learning, sleep and waking. It's the main neurotransmitter used by introverts' "put on the brakes" nervous system. A deficiency of acetylcholine disrupts learning and cognitive function and causes memory loss. Acetylcholine neurons are the first to degenerate in Alzheimer's disease.

 

* Dopamine says, "If it feels good, do it." This is one of our most rewarding neurotransmitters. Dopamine regulates movement, pleasure, and action. It is essential for alert awareness, especially the feeling of excitement about something new. It's the main neurotransmitter for extroverts, built by the building blocks released by the "give it the gas" nervous system. It is also the most addictive of all the neurotransmitters.

 

The acetylcholine pathway is longer than the dopamine pathway. When the dopamine pathway is triggered, the person gets an instant "happy hit". When the acetylcholine pathway is triggered, the "happy hit" is longer in coming and takes more effort to get.

 

And if we use the domino analogy, it's pretty hard to stop dominoes once they're started. So if the dopamine pathway is short, the dominoes are tripped and the end is reached pretty quick - might be pretty difficult for those who have dominant dopamine pathways to employ conscious thought in order to stop the dominoes - the domino run is probably already finished before the conscious thought "I need to stop!" is even formed.

 

Just wanted to introduce a new angle to the discussion. Is it possible that extroverts are more biologically prone to addiction than introverts? Laney thinks so. How does that play out in terms of homeschooled vs. non-homeschooled?

[I.Dup.]

In "The Hidden Gifts of the Introverted Child" by Marti Laney, there's a section exploring the relationship between dominant neurotransmitters and introversion/extroversion. (Neurotransmitters are chemicals in the brain that either excite or inhibit a brain cell. When they excite a chain of brain cells, it looks like a row of tumbling dominoes. When they inhibit, they tell the dominoes not to tumble. (Laney's definition - I borrowed it. :))) Introverts tend to have a more dominant acetylcholine pathway and extroverts tend to have a more dominant dopamine pathway. From the book:

 

* Acetylcholine says, "Let's think about it." This is the superstar of thought, concentration, and voluntary movement. It controls vital activities that govern arousal, attention, awareness, perceptual learning, sleep and waking. It's the main neurotransmitter used by introverts' "put on the brakes" nervous system. A deficiency of acetylcholine disrupts learning and cognitive function and causes memory loss. Acetylcholine neurons are the first to degenerate in Alzheimer's disease.

 

* Dopamine says, "If it feels good, do it." This is one of our most rewarding neurotransmitters. Dopamine regulates movement, pleasure, and action. It is essential for alert awareness, especially the feeling of excitement about something new. It's the main neurotransmitter for extroverts, built by the building blocks released by the "give it the gas" nervous system. It is also the most addictive of all the neurotransmitters.

 

The acetylcholine pathway is longer than the dopamine pathway. When the dopamine pathway is triggered, the person gets an instant "happy hit". When the acetylcholine pathway is triggered, the "happy hit" is longer in coming and takes more effort to get.

 

And if we use the domino analogy, it's pretty hard to stop dominoes once they're started. So if the dopamine pathway is short, the dominoes are tripped and the end is reached pretty quick - might be pretty difficult for those who have dominant dopamine pathways to employ conscious thought in order to stop the dominoes - the domino run is probably already finished before the conscious thought "I need to stop!" is even formed.

 

Just wanted to introduce a new angle to the discussion. Is it possible that extroverts are more biologically prone to addiction than introverts? Laney thinks so. How does that play out in terms of homeschooled vs. non-homeschooled?

 

I will now be encouraging my children to marry introverts.

 

My easier children are definitely my introverted children. They seem much more able to roll with the punches and accept life without fighting every, little thing. I can see how they would be able to deal with things more steadily without getting hooked as easily. My dad and my sister are both extroverts and they both have major problems with addictive tendencies.

[TravelingChris]

Several points- Thomas Szasz also didn't believe in any mental illness at all. He was very strongly against mental institutions, even for people with paranoid schizophrenia and other very serious mental illnesses, since he thought they didn't exist. I think that he let his experiences with Soviet prisons cloud his scientific judgement and I contend that he wasn't a scientist but more a philosopher.

 

Next, many, many people are uneducated about pain killers. The huge majority of people do not have addiction issues with them- about 93%. For people in that 93%, pain killers can be prescribed and used safely, even for years. I have been on prescription painkillers for over 10 years and I have no problems with them. I don't take more than prescribed, I don't do anything illegal to get them, and I follow the law. Many people are like me- we live with chronic pain and prescroption pain killers are part of the treatment.

 

In terms of the dopamine studies, I am curious if there is more than one type of dopamine disturbance. After all, I have ADHD but have no addiction issues at all. Neither do my kids who have ADHD. Supposedly the ADHD is a result of too little dopamine but even though there is a correlation between adhd and addictions, it isn't anywhere near 100% correlation. Therefore, it seems to me, that there have to be other issues than just dopamine or there must be more than one way that dopamine can be reduced and at least one of them can cause ADHD but not addictive behaviors. Also, I have known people with addictions who definitely did not have ADHD. SO while both may have something to do with dopamine, they cannot be the same problem. There isn't a one to one correlation.

 

By the way, not drinking any alcohol has bad health effects too. Moderate alcohol comsumption has been linked to several beneficial health effects including a lower risk of heart attacks.

[TravelingChris]

Several points- Thomas Szasz also didn't believe in any mental illness at all. He was very strongly against mental institutions, even for people with paranoid schizophrenia and other very serious mental illnesses, since he thought they didn't exist. I think that he let his experiences with Soviet prisons cloud his scientific judgement and I contend that he wasn't a scientist but more a philosopher.

 

Next, many, many people are uneducated about pain killers. The huge majority of people do not have addiction issues with them- about 93%. For people in that 93%, pain killers can be prescribed and used safely, even for years. I have been on prescription painkillers for over 10 years and I have no problems with them. I don't take more than prescribed, I don't do anything illegal to get them, and I follow the law. Many people are like me- we live with chronic pain and prescroption pain killers are part of the treatment.

 

In terms of the dopamine studies, I am curious if there is more than one type of dopamine disturbance. After all, I have ADHD but have no addiction issues at all. Neither do my kids who have ADHD. Supposedly the ADHD is a result of too little dopamine but even though there is a correlation between adhd and addictions, it isn't anywhere near 100% correlation. Therefore, it seems to me, that there have to be other issues than just dopamine or there must be more than one way that dopamine can be reduced and at least one of them can cause ADHD but not addictive behaviors. Also, I have known people with addictions who definitely did not have ADHD. SO while both may have something to do with dopamine, they cannot be the same problem. There isn't a one to one correlation.

 

By the way, not drinking any alcohol has bad health effects too. Moderate alcohol consumption has been linked to several beneficial health effects including a lower risk of heart attacks.

[Dicentra]

Just wanted to emphasize - in no way did I mean to say that ALL introverts do not have addiction issues and ALL extroverts do (just in case anyone thought that's what I was getting at!). :)

 

I also wanted to add that, based on the above info on brain pathways, it would be very difficult for one side to understand the motivations and reasons of the other. Those with a dominant acetylcholine pathway look at those with a dominant dopamine pathway and think, "Well... Why don't they just THINK about it, realize it's bad, and not do it?!?!?". But that's not how the dopamine-dominant brain works and I think it's almost impossible for those with an acetylcholine-dominant brain to understand that.

 

ETA: Laney discusses other neurotransmitters as well. Brain chemistry is obviously much more complicated than my above post delves into. :) I'm not expert, by ANY means - I just thought it was an interesting angle.

 

(TransientChris - if ADHD is correlated with too little dopamine, then wouldn't that make ADHD individuals less likely to have additions issues, not more likely? Maybe I'm misunderstanding, though.)

[garddwr]

In "The Hidden Gifts of the Introverted Child" by Marti Laney, there's a section exploring the relationship between dominant neurotransmitters and introversion/extroversion. (Neurotransmitters are chemicals in the brain that either excite or inhibit a brain cell. When they excite a chain of brain cells, it looks like a row of tumbling dominoes. When they inhibit, they tell the dominoes not to tumble. (Laney's definition - I borrowed it. :))) Introverts tend to have a more dominant acetylcholine pathway and extroverts tend to have a more dominant dopamine pathway. From the book:

 

* Acetylcholine says, "Let's think about it." This is the superstar of thought, concentration, and voluntary movement. It controls vital activities that govern arousal, attention, awareness, perceptual learning, sleep and waking. It's the main neurotransmitter used by introverts' "put on the brakes" nervous system. A deficiency of acetylcholine disrupts learning and cognitive function and causes memory loss. Acetylcholine neurons are the first to degenerate in Alzheimer's disease.

 

* Dopamine says, "If it feels good, do it." This is one of our most rewarding neurotransmitters. Dopamine regulates movement, pleasure, and action. It is essential for alert awareness, especially the feeling of excitement about something new. It's the main neurotransmitter for extroverts, built by the building blocks released by the "give it the gas" nervous system. It is also the most addictive of all the neurotransmitters.

 

The acetylcholine pathway is longer than the dopamine pathway. When the dopamine pathway is triggered, the person gets an instant "happy hit". When the acetylcholine pathway is triggered, the "happy hit" is longer in coming and takes more effort to get.

 

And if we use the domino analogy, it's pretty hard to stop dominoes once they're started. So if the dopamine pathway is short, the dominoes are tripped and the end is reached pretty quick - might be pretty difficult for those who have dominant dopamine pathways to employ conscious thought in order to stop the dominoes - the domino run is probably already finished before the conscious thought "I need to stop!" is even formed.

 

Just wanted to introduce a new angle to the discussion. Is it possible that extroverts are more biologically prone to addiction than introverts? Laney thinks so. How does that play out in terms of homeschooled vs. non-homeschooled?

 

 

Thanks for sharing. I'm curious now to read that book.

[Joanne]

12 step programs, which are at the heart of healing addictions, places a great emphasis on a value system (one's higher power), as well as on taking inventory and confession. This would suggest that their is a certain amount of personal culpability, as one works through the process of recovery.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Mutual Help groups, of which AA and NA are the most common, are suggested components of most treatment programs.

 

The presence of the brain disease means that healing (recovery) must include brain changers. Brain changers that help heal (or mitigate) the brain disease of addiction are things like adequate sleep, structure, routine, adequate (or better) nutrition, exercise, fellowship/community, spiritual experience, transformational experience. These things change the structure, chemicals, and neural patterns of the brain.

 

That list is not complete, but they are some of the most impactful life components. 12 step programs provide, in efficient fashion, a lot of impactful brain changers. The ritual, structure, fellowship, experiential spirituality, chanting, reading and the opportunity to transform your relationship with people, and heal the past changes the brain neural networks. In rough terms, it heals/mitigates the same areas compromised with addiction disease.

 

12 step programs are not the only way to "get there", but they do tend to be the most convienient.

 

The space between not using and recovery needs to be filled with things that HEAL the brain. Changing behavior and character can be part of that. If not enough brain changers are incorporated and sustained, the brain tends back to disease and using.

[Dicentra]

I will now be encouraging my children to marry introverts.

 

My easier children are definitely my introverted children. They seem much more able to roll with the punches and accept life without fighting every, little thing. I can see how they would be able to deal with things more steadily without getting hooked as easily. My dad and my sister are both extroverts and they both have major problems with addictive tendencies.

 

 

Well... :)

 

Introverts have their downsides, too. I'm an extreme introvert myself and it doesn't make day-to-day life any easier, I'll tell ya. :D I think society needs both - extroverts are the ones who take risks and push society forward. Introverts are the ones who help to hold the extroverts back a little so they don't leap too far. :)

 

(Not directed towards I.Dup but a general "I suppose...") I suppose if we argue that all dopamine-backed choices (i.e. quick, feel-good, risk-taking decisions) are bad and should be avoided, we might not have had some of the major societal leaps forward that have happened. No risk-taking individuals might equal maintaining the status quo forever and ever. I'm not sure I like the thought of that.

 

:)

[KathyBC]

 

Just wanted to introduce a new angle to the discussion. Is it possible that extroverts are more biologically prone to addiction than introverts? Laney thinks so. How does that play out in terms of homeschooled vs. non-homeschooled?

 

 

In my limited experience, introverted people can feel even more social pressure and self-medicate to get through situations. As Dianne put it so well, as teenagers they are lost trying to navigate the complex social strata that is high school and aren't feeling successful at it.

[Dicentra]

In my limited experience, introverted people can feel even more social pressure and self-medicate to get through situations. As Dianne put it so well, as teenagers they are lost trying to navigate the complex social strata that is high school and aren't feeling successful at it.

 

 

Interesting point. As I mentioned earlier, none of this is either/or or black/white. Introversion/extroversion is a continuum and brain chemistry is far more complex than just a choice between those two neurotransmitters. I think, too, there is a difference between occasional self-medicating to get through a situation and becoming addicted to self-medicating. KWIM?

[Jean in Newcastle]

What it came down for me and alcohol was whether or not I was mentally in control of my self and my actions. I'm not when I'm drunk. As a Christian, that is a problem for me because it means that neither is the Holy Spirit. As a person in general, it is a problem because I don't want to be a slave to something outside of myself. I don't want to be a slave to food or anything else either because even though mentally I might still know what I'm doing, I'm at the mercy of the craving and desire. I don't know how all that works out physiologically. All I know is my own experience going cold turkey from alcohol and the relief it brought me.

[Catwoman]

I was going to post that some "I'll pray for you" statements are equal to a "Bless your heart". You beat me to it. :lol:

 

 

:iagree:

 

That is so true.

 

Recently I was reading a thread, and someone quoted another person's post and said that she would pray for her, because she obviously needed God's help (or something to that effect.) The essence of her entire post was that the other person was clearly both immoral and a complete moron, so she would ask God to help her. :glare:

 

I found the post so offensive that I reported it, and I rarely report anything. What made it worse was that the member was a newbie, who had no clue about the person she was calling names. She was using "prayer" as a weapon, and it was highly insulting, both to the person she addressed, and to everyone who means well when they say they will pray for someone.

 

There is a huge difference between someone who is genuinely concerned about someone who is going through a rough time, and someone who is being sarcastic when they offer their prayers. Hey, I know some people get offended when others say they will pray for them, but when something awful is happening in my life, I'll take prayers, good karma, happy positive thoughts, and whatever else anyone wants to send me to encourage me that things will be OK. I would never think to get upset about a genuinely heartfelt sentiment, but I hate the prayer-as-a-weapon thing.

[Jennifer3141]

Cat, you've got a good brain there. :laugh:

[LucyStoner]

Is there a widespread beleif that genes are destiny?

 

 

Destiny? I don't think so. Extremely influential? Yeah. My son has high functioning autism. I am not alone suspecting that there is a genetic component but evidence also suggests that environmental factors are also at play. There are not definitive answers on the topic, but the research is growing. Perhaps someone could have the genes for it but dodge the environmental factors and not tip the scale towards expressing the traits of autism. And others could be exposed to the environmental factors and not develop autism at all.

 

I think that people with a genetic leaning towards addiction are more likely to become addicted, often through exposure that wouldn't be a problem for many others (light social drinking, prescriptions etc).

[LucyStoner]

Dude, I am on your side. I was just trying to be funny.

 

 

Don't worry. You were funny. :laugh: Wow.

[Rose in BC]

 

Thanks Joanne.

 

{{{Rose}}}

 

[texasmama]

 

I will now be encouraging my children to marry introverts.

 

My easier children are definitely my introverted children. They seem much more able to roll with the punches and accept life without fighting every, little thing. I can see how they would be able to deal with things more steadily without getting hooked as easily. My dad and my sister are both extroverts and they both have major problems with addictive tendencies.

Random and unrelated to the OP (sorry, that's how I roll). I recently asserted to my officemate at work that I hold a hypothesis that introverts are less likely to cheat on their spouses. It just fell out of my mouth and surprised me...then I really got behind it and realized it would make a fascinating study (if a difficult one). I do work in the mental health field, and my office mate and I are both therapists, if that makes any of this more clear. FWIW, we are both extroverts. I married an introvert. And yes, my introverted child is my one who is more compliant and "easier" to manage. The rest of them...well, God help me...one of them is just like me. lol

[justamouse]

I'm going to delete that later, so please don't quote.

[garddwr]

justamouse, your story is inspiring.

[mommymilkies]

The introversion/extroversion but is fascinating. I will say that I only know one person who is introverted AND an addict. I, myself, am deeply introverted and other than my Sci-Fi marathons mixed with cookie batter, I don't much like thrills. Lol

 

I can see how introverts would become addicts, though. I do drink in a group if there is alcohol and I am nervous about 75% of the time, which is more than the >1% of the time I'm at home and we have liquor in the fridge. I have social anxiety, so it helps take the edge off. Along with peer pressure or other life stressors, I can see how that would increase the risk of addiction in some people.

[LucyStoner]

 

 

Joanne made a declarative statement. There was no indication that she was stating an opinion.

If you had read my earlier posts you would have seen that I was talking about addiction as self medication, as you were, in response to my post, as if this was something I had never considered. I have been an addict. I struggle wtih addictive tendencies. I have lots of carpie pre-dispositions. I have family members that are addicts. My mother died from an addiction. I have lots of compassion for addiction. That doesn't assume that I buy into a certain belief system ABOUT addiction. .

 

 

You don't need to buy into any belief set about addiction- you are obviously free to form your own beliefs and opinions. However, since you said you would be reading Gabor Mate, you should know that he makes a compelling, medically backed argument for addiction as illness, supports controversial safe use programs/clean injection sites for addicts and is critical of certain characteristics of 12 step programs. His opinions are not cookie cutter or lockstep with any of the older thinking about addiction or recovery.

 

Clearly you have a lot of compassion and as I stated earlier, my post was not written well or intended to be a response to you but on the to and fro of the thread. I will again state that I am sorry. That said, I will remain downright mystified that declarative statements (inherent in any debate) that dispute a statement of belief (opinion) are to be deemed insults rather than as a statement of a different belief. Everyone gets to have their own set of beliefs. That does not make a person with any particular belief set immune from being disagreed with by anyone else.

[LucyStoner]

Ack 2x post!

[Lisbeth]

What it came down for me and alcohol was whether or not I was mentally in control of my self and my actions. I'm not when I'm drunk. As a Christian, that is a problem for me because it means that neither is the Holy Spirit. As a person in general, it is a problem because I don't want to be a slave to something outside of myself. I don't want to be a slave to food or anything else either because even though mentally I might still know what I'm doing, I'm at the mercy of the craving and desire. I don't know how all that works out physiologically. All I know is my own experience going cold turkey from alcohol and the relief it brought me.

 

Agree. I was never a big drinker, but I love being LDS now and going to social events with adults that don't involve someone getting sloppy drunk, having to worry about adults driving, and some other behaviors that come from lowering of inhibitions. I would not outlaw alcohol. It doesn't work. BUT...I *do* wish people would remain 100% in control of their faculties. Think of the social ills that would disappear if that happened. It wouldn't be utopia but it would be better. I've been at work parties in the past during which someone or several someones made complete and total fools of themselves. Alcohol!

 

Free agency (free will) is a BIG part of the doctrine in my Church. I **LOVE** that.

 

I am not against ALL drugs. Here is an example. I have massive ADD. Without meds for it, I am LESS in control of my free will, and more at the mercy of scattered and impulsive thoughts. (imo). With meds, I am clearer. So...it just depends. YMMV.

 

I have friends who are professionals and STILL have parties and puke in their sinks from alcohol, all with kids asleep upstairs. Reading Frank McCourt's books INFURIATED me...the total and absolute abuse/neglect of kids over alcohol. Can't stand that level of substance abuse. I also personally believe alcohol is a toxin for the body. I believe my body is a Temple for the Holy Ghost. The good alcohol supposedly does can be accomplished other ways without the toxin. You could argue that my ADD meds have some toxic side effects (even though I do NOT use stimulants), so I have to weigh the lesser of two evils.

 

I thank God often that my parents were kind, rational people who were teetollers.

[Lady Florida.]

Agree. I was never a big drinker, but I love being LDS now and going to social events with adults that don't involve someone getting sloppy drunk, having to worry about adults driving, and some other behaviors that come from lowering of inhibitions.

 

I have friends who are professionals and STILL have parties and puke in their sinks from alcohol, all with kids asleep upstairs.

 

 

 

Wow. Is this common all over? I've lived most of my adult life in the same general area, so maybe I'm sheltered, but I haven't run into this kind of behavior since I was in college. When I go to social events with other adults in which alcohol is served, no one gets sloppy drunk. People are conscious of drinking and driving and there's always a designated driver. I've never been to an adult social event where anyone puked in the sink or anywhere else. Even the hosts who don't have to drive after the event, watch their level of alcohol consumption.

[Catwoman]

Wow. Is this common all over? I've lived most of my adult life in the same general area, so maybe I'm sheltered, but I haven't run into this kind of behavior since I was in college. When I go to social events with other adults in which alcohol is served, no one gets sloppy drunk. People are conscious of drinking and driving and there's always a designated driver. I've never been to an adult social event where anyone puked in the sink or anywhere else. Even the hosts who don't have to drive after the event, watch their level of alcohol consumption.

 

 

:iagree:

 

Same here.

[Joanne]

 

 

 

Wow. Is this common all over? I've lived most of my adult life in the same general area, so maybe I'm sheltered, but I haven't run into this kind of behavior since I was in college. When I go to social events with other adults in which alcohol is served, no one gets sloppy drunk. People are conscious of drinking and driving and there's always a designated driver. I've never been to an adult social event where anyone puked in the sink or anywhere else. Even the hosts who don't have to drive after the event, watch their level of alcohol consumption.

 

IME, no. I am often in the company of adults on weekends. I see mostly social, recreational, moderate drinking if any.

 

[jhschool]

We're pretty sheltered too. The get-togethers we go to, they don't even serve alcohol.

 

Haven't seen a drunk person since college...thank goodness...

[mommymilkies]

Yes, depending on your socioeconomic status, it can be common. When I go back to my hometown at least 50% of my old school acquaintances (even "professionals" get together and get completely pissed. I do not. One drink is more than enough for me.

[Joanne]

I thought of another way to conceptualize the dinstinction.

 

Alcoholism is not caused by drinking too much. Addiction is not caused by using too much. The drinking and using too much is caused by the addiction (disease). It is not the substance (with the exception of crack) that drives the use ~ the addictive response emerges from the disease.

 

Responding to my clients as if they had a moral, character, or will defect doesn't help them. They don't have a "choice" ~ their bodies DEMAND more. Only treating the disease with brain changing intervention gives them a chance to be able to say "no".

 

It is not about strength or even level of motivation. It's about enough treatment and recovery sufficient to change the structure and chemicals and neuropathways of the brain ~ enough to allow abstinence to continue.

[VeritasMama]

I thought of another way to conceptualize the dinstinction.

 

Alcoholism is not caused by drinking too much. Addiction is not caused by using too much. The drinking and using too much is caused by the addiction (disease). It is not the substance (with the exception of crack) that drives the use ~ the addictive response emerges from the disease.

 

Responding to my clients as if they had a moral, character, or will defect doesn't help them. They don't have a "choice" ~ their bodies DEMAND more. Only treating the disease with brain changing intervention gives them a chance to be able to say "no".

 

It is not about strength or even level of motivation. It's about enough treatment and recovery sufficient to change the structure and chemicals and neuropathways of the brain ~ enough to allow abstinence to continue.

 

 

However, motivation and strength can be factors in people seeking treatment and persevering in their recovery. This is not a judgement, just an observation that outcomes for individuals with addiction issues are affected by their character traits.

 

I come from a family with a history of addiction issues. My brother is an alcoholic, he started drinking as an adolescent. We have tried to intervene, we have tried to get him to seek help, I don't speak to him anymore. He refuses to seek help, and his drinking has affected his life and the lives of his family in very negative ways, even to the point of threatening his life and the life of others with his drunken driving. He has always been what I would call a self absorbed person, he cannot see how the consequences of his choices effect other people, and he simply doesn't care enough about himself to stop. Part of the problem is that he was "high functioning," that is he held down an excellent job and paid his bills, etc. However, in recent years he has lost that ability to function, he has become a drifter. He is a damaged person with no motivation to seek help, and when he does try to stop drinking on his own he finds it too difficult and gives up.

 

My sister also started drinking and doing drugs in high school. She ended up being arrested with a group of other teenagers. She ended up in court ordered rehab. She was able to turn her life around, but it took a few years. But she chose to become committed to recovery. This is because she took her recovery seriously and nipped the problem in the bud before it became a full blown addiction.

 

I avoided drugs and alcohol in high school. I wanted to avoid addiction. In college, I started drinking socially, and found that I have a hard time knowing when to stop. I end up binge drinking without really meaning too. I do drink socially, but very rarely and I make sure to limit myself to one or two drinks. I feel that I am just as pre-disposed to addiction as my brother, I can understand how easy it is for him to drink too much, the difference is I have made a concious effort to stop myself from doing so.

 

Am I a better person than my siblings? No, that is not what I am trying to say. I am a different person, and that means that I have been able to deal with our shared biology differently. I'm trying to say that while addiction is biological, and a disease, that biology is not the only factor. Your character, personality, and at what age you are exposed to drugs and alcohol will all play a role. I believe that my brother and sister faced the same circumstances, they both have the same disease, but one had a much better outcome because she made better choices due to her differences in character.

 

Now, we could argue as to whether or not character is genetically predetermined, nature vs. nurture...

[Catherine]

I want to agree with posters who've pointed out the genetic vulnerability of some people to addiction, and mention a factor that I think is sometimes overlooked" culture. As in, local culture. I grew up in a rural, farmy community and although there was mild drug use, and certainly plenty of alcohol, and there still is, it is qualitatively different from the city and suburbs where I live now. Drugs of all kinds are readily to the curious and motivated kid. They simply weren't where I grew up-not hard drugs. And since they are somewhat available here, the local is by definition more permissive of "experimentation" in the high school and middle school age set.

 

I have a childhood friend who raised 4 daughters in the LA area and one of them became an addict, despite having stable parents, a good school, and a watchful SAHM. IMO the local culture made that available to her and in some cases, availability is 90% of it.

[Joanne]

Can't agree. The addicts I know (recovered) will tell you that it is about wiillpower or self-discipline. Educating themselves as to the effects on their body helped them used their mind to overcome & ignore the call and to move on to other things.. Cold Turkey can be done, in spite of demand from the bod (whether real or pyschological). .Many people can and do allow their mind to overcome strong urges from their body. There are other ways to manage pain than medication, and humans can successfully learn those ways so they don't have to use addictive substances.

 

 

 

Of course addiction and substance abuse can be overcome; millions have done it. The key is "enough" brain altering, brain healing, brain impactful agents to sustain the change necessary to arrest the disease function.

 

But there are millions that believe it is about strength and willpower (which is simply another way to call it a moral or a character issue). My clients (and the people I've known personally) are some of the strongest, most disciplined people I know. But that's the thing - strong and disciplined can't change a disease. You have to be *recovery smart*, not "strong".

 

I've learned that you can't tell an addict to "be strong" as a remedy any more than you can tell a cancer patient, a heart disease patient or someone with asthma.

[justamouse]

From the book Hold Onto Your Kids, by Dr Neufeld and Mate.

 

A psychologist with a reputation for penetrating to the heart of complex Dr. Neufeld has dubbed this phenomenon peer orientation, which refers to the tendency of children and youth to look to their peers for direction: for a sense of right and wrong, for values, identity and codes of behaviour. But peer orientation undermines family cohesion, poisons the school atmosphere, and fosters an aggressively hostile and sexualized youth culture. It provides a powerful explanation for schoolyard bullying and youth violence; its effects are painfully evident in the context of teenage gangs and criminal activity, in tragedies such as in Littleton, Colorado; Tabor, Alberta and Victoria, B.C. It is an escalating trend that has never been adequately described or contested until Hold On to Your Kids. Once understood, it becomes self-evident -- as do the solutions.

 

Hold On to Your Kids will restore parenting to its natural intuitive basis and the parent-child relationship to its rightful preeminence. The concepts, principles and practical advice contained in Hold On to Your Kids will empower parents to satisfy their children’s inborn need to find direction by turning towards a source of authority, contact and warmth.

 

 

Something has changed. One can sense it, one can feel it, just not find the words for it. Children are not quite the same as we remember being. They seem less likely to take their cues from adults, less inclined to please those in charge, less afraid of getting into trouble. Parenting, too, seems to have changed. Our parents seemed more confident, more certain of themselves and had more impact on us, for better or for worse. For many, parenting does not feel natural. Adults through the ages have complained about children being less respectful of their elders and more difficult to manage than preceding generations, but could it be that this time it is for real? -- from Hold On to Your Kids

 

pg 107

 

 

 

Also bearing withess to the unbearable nature of the vulnerability experienced by peer-oriented kids is the preponderance of vulnerability quelling drugs. Peer-oriented kids will do anything to avoid the human feelings is alineness, suffering, and pain, and to escape feeling hurt, exposed , alarmed, insecure, inadequate or self concious. The older and more peer-oriented the kids, themore drugs seem to be an inherant part of thier lifestyle. Peer orienttion creates an appitite for anything that would reduce vulnerability. Drugs are emotinal ainkillers. And, in an other waythey help young people escape fron the benumbed state imposed by thier defensive emotional detachment. With the shutdown of emotions come boredom and alienation. Drugs provide an artificial stimulation to the emotinally jaded. They heighten sensation without incurring risks of genuine openness. In fact the same drug can play seemingly opposite functions in an individual. Alchol and marijuana, for examoke, can numb, or on the other hand, free the brain and mind form social inhibitions. Other drugs are stimulants--cocainem amphetamines, and ecstacy; the very name of the latter speaks volumes about exactly what is missing in the psychic life of our emotinally incapacitated young people.

 

The physchological function served by these drugs is often overlooked by well meaning adults who percieve the problem to be coming from the outside of the individual, through peer pressure and youth culture mores. It is not just a matter of getting our children to say no. The problem lies much deeper. As long as we do not confront and reverse peer orientation among our children, we are creating an insatiable appetite for these drugs. The affinity for vulnerability-reducing drugs origionates from deep within the defended soul. Our children's emotional saftey can come only from us: then they will not be driven to escape thier feelings and to rely on the anesthetic effects of the drugs. The need to feel alive and excited can and should arise from within themselves, from their own innately limitless capacity to be engaged with the universe.

 

This brings us back to the essential hierarchial nature of attachment. The more the child needs attachment to function, the more important it is that she attches to those responsible for her. Only then can the vulnerability that is inherant in emotional attachment be endured. Children don't need friends, they need parents, grandparents, adults who will assume the responsiblity to hold onto them. The more children are attached to caring adults, the more they are able to interact with peers witout being overwhelmed by the vulnerability involved. The less peers matter, the more of the vulnerability of peer realtionships can be endured. It is exactly those children who don't need friends are more capable of having friends without losing thier ability to feel deeply and vulnerably.

 

But why should we want our children to remain open to their own vulnerability? What is amiss when detachment freezes the emotions in order to protect the child? Intuitivly we all know that it is better to feel than to not feel. Our emotions are not a luxury but an essential aspect of our makeup. We have them not just for the pleasure of feeling, but becuase they have crucial survival value. They orient us, interpret the world for us, give us vital information for which we cannot thrive. They tell us what is dangerous, what is benign, what threatenes our existence and what will nurture our growth. Imagine how disabled we wouldbe if we could not see or hear or taste or sense heat or cold or physical pain. To shut down emotions is to lose an indispensable of who we are. Emotions are what make life worthwhile, exciting, challenging, and meaningful. They drive our explorations of the world, motivate our discoveries, and fuel our growth. Down to the very cellular level, human beings are either in defensive mode or growth mode, but they cannot be in both at the same time. When children become invulnerable, they cease to realate to life as infinite possibility, to themselves as boundless potential, and to the world as a welcoming and nurturing arena for self-expression. The invulnerability imposed by peer orientation imprisions children in their limitations and fears. No wonder so many of them these days are being treated for depression, anxiety, and other disorders.

 

 

 

 

There's an argument against 'socialization' if I ever heard one.

[justamouse]

[Guest submarines]

Wow. Is this common all over? I've lived most of my adult life in the same general area, so maybe I'm sheltered, but I haven't run into this kind of behavior since I was in college. When I go to social events with other adults in which alcohol is served, no one gets sloppy drunk. People are conscious of drinking and driving and there's always a designated driver. I've never been to an adult social event where anyone puked in the sink or anywhere else. Even the hosts who don't have to drive after the event, watch their level of alcohol consumption.

 

:iagree: I can't even imagine. I don't have any friends who'd get drunk at a party. That just sounds strange. I do know there are people like this, but honestly, they wouldn't like me, and I wouldn't like them. :laugh:

[justamouse]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZ-FAX4Pz8I

 

 

 

6:05 addiction is not genetic

 

And, why 12 step programs work.

[laughing lioness]

It is not a character flaw to try drugs, alcohol, or have sex.

 

 

 

That really depends on your world view and faith. Stating this as fact, without defining content, is insulting to those who don't share your values.

 

Just to clarify (not that it matters probably to anyone but me,) but I would like to point out that I did not state that I believed trying drugs, alcohol or sex was a character flaw. I did not state that I believed that addiction was a character flaw. I took issue with the absolute statement, without contextualization, that engaging in certain behaviors was not a character flaw.. (see bolded, above).

 

Just to be clear, I believe, that addiction is a complicated business. As far as character flaws- in my economy, that's the human condition. It is our personal responsiblity to manage our flaws- in whatever shape they come in, to the best of our ability. As someone's tag line says, "be gentle with those you meet, we are all in a hard battle," Some of those flaws are easier to manage than others- my compulsion to clean is easily managed whereas my compulsion to drink coffee- not so much.

 

But I also believe, have seen, experienced, witnessed, that personal responsiblity is a huge part of the healing process, regardless of the struggle (as in, who has ownership for what?- sometimes the only ownership you can take is "I haven't forgiven myself" but the very act of taking some responsiblity- even in a situation that clearly had a power diferential- is often healing- (we've seen this a lot with spouse and sex abuse).

 

Addiction = biopsychosocial. Homeschooling can address some of that. It's not an innoculation, as several of the kids I know personally bear witness to.

[Joanne]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZ-FAX4Pz8I

 

 

 

6:05 addiction is not genetic

 

And, why 12 step programs work.

 

 

12 step programs are one powerful way that work - When they are fully engaged with in terms of fellowship, accountability, ongoing participation and "step work." There are other ways that work, also, impacting the diseased brain similarly.

 

I get his point about "not genetic" but he states fairly clearly that it is biological.

 

I don't fully agree with him about the percentage with which he asserts early childhood experiences shape an addictive personality, but I do agree that there are correlation stats that support an impacted brain being more likely (vulnerable) to develop into addiction.

 

Gabor Mate is one voice - a somewhat contrarian one - in the field. I respect his work, but avoid wholeheartedly embracing any ONE paradigm for such a complicated issue.

[Joanne]

 

Just to clarify (not that it matters probably to anyone but me,) but I would like to point out that I did not state that I believed trying drugs, alcohol or sex was a character flaw. I did not state that I believed that addiction was a character flaw. I took issue with the absolute statement, without contextualization, that engaging in certain behaviors was not a character flaw.. (see bolded, above).

 

Just to be clear, I believe, that addiction is a complicated business. As far as character flaws- in my economy, that's the human condition. It is our personal responsiblity to manage our flaws- in whatever shape they come in, to the best of our ability. As someone's tag line says, "be gentle with those you meet, we are all in a hard battle," Some of those flaws are easier to manage than others- my compulsion to clean is easily managed whereas my compulsion to drink coffee- not so much.

 

But I also believe, have seen, experienced, witnessed, that personal responsiblity is a huge part of the healing process, regardless of the struggle (as in, who has ownership for what?- sometimes the only ownership you can take is "I haven't forgiven myself" but the very act of taking some responsiblity- even in a situation that clearly had a power diferential- is often healing- (we've seen this a lot with spouse and sex abuse).

 

Addiction = biopsychosocial. Homeschooling can address some of that. It's not an innoculation, as several of the kids I know personally bear witness to.

 

 

 

Agree with paragraphs 2 - 4.