"Womb Tombs" - The Most Ridiculous Thing I've Heard All Month

[myfunnybunch]

Ew.

 

I kind of feel sorry for the guy that thought this one up. Not only is he egregiously ignorant about basic biology, he's walking around with that idea in his head. Bleah.

 

Cat

[PachiSusan]

 

 

Actually, now that I think more about it, I guess she would just plain be pregnant, wouldn't she? is there any reason that the implanted fertilized egg would not develop and become a viable pregnancy?

 

 

The fertilized egg would have nowhere to go. It would die and then be reabsorbed into the body if the woman did not have a normal menses.

[Mrs Mungo]

If ovulation occurs, then women typically have breakthrough bleeding. Most women don't have periods of any kind because they do not ovulate. A fetus that *implants* in the uterus will not be terminated by bcp. A fertilized egg is *nothing* like a tiny fetus. This is not a matter of controversy; it is wholly false.

[PachiSusan]

 

 

Nowhere to go, meaning... the lining isn't thick enough? So it would just be absorbed into the body, eh? Okay, I can get on board with that. :)

 

 

Correct.

[Mrs Mungo]

 

 

Actually, now that I think more about it, I guess she would just plain be pregnant, wouldn't she? Is there any reason that the implanted fertilized egg would not develop and become a viable pregnancy?

 

I conceived eldest dd while on Depo-Provera. An implanted egg=viable pregnancy; birth control does not stop a viable pregnancy. And no, you aren't pregnant until an egg implants.

 

 

[Impish]

Wolf thinks that instead of a 'womb tomb' I have grafitti, like cave paintings, from the previous babies. He thinks that makes more sense :smilielol5:

[PachiSusan]

If ovulation occurs, then women typically have breakthrough bleeding. Most women don't have periods of any kind because they do not ovulate. A fetus that *implants* in the uterus will not be terminated by bcp. A fertilized egg is *nothing* like a tiny fetus. This is not a matter of controversy; it is wholly false.

 

 

If one believes that life begins at conception, then if conception occurs, a human life is expelled when it cannot implant due to the action of the BCPs. That is not false. If an embryo implants ,it will be an oops birth control failure, and then yes, BCps will not cause termination because the woman will be pregnant.

[PachiSusan]

 

 

I conceived eldest dd while on Depo-Provera. An implanted egg=viable pregnancy; birth control does not stop a viable pregnancy. And no, you aren't pregnant until an egg implants.

 

 

Depends on which scientists you ask.

[Mrs Mungo]

If one believes that life begins at conception, then if conception occurs, a human life is expelled when it cannot implant due to the action of the BCPs. That is not false. If an embryo implants ,it will be an oops birth control failure, and then yes, BCps will not cause termination because the woman will be pregnant.

 

 

I don't believe life begins at conception. But, that is neither here nor there because I said "a fetus" not "a life." Unless you are suggesting that zygotes LOOK the same as fetuses (hint: they do not), then my point stands. A womb would never be full of implanted tiny dead fetuses. That is a *ridiculous* assertion.

 

This is what implants in a woman's uterus, not a teeny-tiny baby.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blastocyst#mw-mf-search

[Mrs Mungo]

 

 

Depends on which scientists you ask.

 

 

I really don't know what you mean by that.

[PachiSusan]

 

 

I don't believe life begins at conception. But, that is neither here nor there because I said "a fetus" not "a life." Unless you are suggesting that zygotes LOOK the same as fetuses (hint: they do not), then my point stands. A womb would never be full of implanted tiny dead fetuses. That is a *ridiculous* assertion.

 

 

Oh absolutely!!! At implantation the embryo is a clump of living cells, and looks NOTHING like a fetus. I am not purporting that mr crazy has it right at all nor do I believe that there is anything left behind in a woman's uterus after a menses or reabsorption.

[PachiSusan]

 

 

I really don't know what you mean by that.

 

 

Scientist are not all on the same page as to when pregnancy starts or life for that matter.

[PachiSusan]

Excuse the conservation of words as I am on an IPhone and it takes me forever to type a sentence.

[Mrs Mungo]

 

 

Scientist are not all on the same page as to when pregnancy starts or life for that matter.

 

 

Disagree. I didn't say anything about when life starts (except to state my opinion in a later post). But, doctors are pretty much in agreement as to when pregnancy starts. Women shed fertilized eggs all the time (even without chemical intervention) and those are not considered miscarriages.

[PachiSusan]

 

 

Disagree. I didn't say anything about when life starts (except to state my opinion in a later post). But, doctors are pretty much in agreement as to when pregnancy starts. Women shed fertilized eggs all the time (even without chemical intervention) and those are not considered miscarriages.

 

 

We will just have to disagree on this one. I'm not here to create any fuss or drama. I also can't really type that fast and explain myself better on this phone.

[LucyStoner]

I conceived eldest dd while on Depo-Provera. An implanted egg=viable pregnancy; birth control does not stop a viable pregnancy. And no, you aren't pregnant until an egg implants.

 

 

 

ITA.

 

My oldest was also conceived while on BC (in my case the very correctly used Ortho Tri cyclen). Certainly it didn't stop the pregnancy. He's a skinny nearly 10 year old, presently wearing striped pjs and again having fallen asleep with his blue eyeglasses on, his book resting fully on his face.

[LucyStoner]

There is no fetus at all until about 9 weeks. Not that I would expect someone who pulls this stuff out of their butt to know that or even care to know that. Facts clearly don't mean much to folks like this crazy dude.

 

ETA: As some have noted it is important to remember that any dead embryo that is old enough to resemble, as he put it, "a tiny baby", can not remain in the womb for long. If the tissue is retained for an extended period after a miscarriage at some point the woman will need medical help or she will no longer be with us. She would be dead from an infection. My aunt lost her whole uterus because of an incomplete miscarriage that she didn't seek help for before getting very sick. Again, these sorts of pesky facts get in the way of fabrications concocted to advance an agenda.

[SunnyDays]

I'm sure we all know plenty of women who conceived while taking birth control... I can think of several friends and acquaintances right now.

 

Okay, this may or may not be popular, and I realize this can be a contentious subject. But.... while I believe life begins at conception... conception to me means that not only is the egg fertilized, but that it is implanted in the womb and able to begin growing. I mean, you can have an egg and sperm meet in a test tube, and you have a fertilized egg, but it will not develop into a baby just sitting there in a tube. It has to have the proper environment of the womb. A woman doesn't have a viable pregnancy unless a fertilized egg implants into the uterine lining.

 

So in my view, while yes, hormonal birth control does prevent implantation... that, to me, is simply part of preventing conception.

 

And to tie that back to the original, ridiculous assertion... a "womb tomb" isn't biologically possible because either those fertilized eggs will implant, and you'll have a pregnancy (that may or may not continue, but if it doesn't, it's shed from the uterus); or the egg will never implant in the first place, the woman has a cycle as usual, and she is not pregnant.

[Mrs Mungo]

There is no fetus at all until about 9 weeks. Not that I would expect someone who pulls this stuff out of their butt to know that or even care to know that. Facts clearly don't mean much to folks like this crazy dude.

 

 

Right. This is what I was trying to get across. You would never have a womb full of tiny baby-like fetuses due to bcp use. That is full-stop crazytrain stuff.

 

Okay, this may or may not be popular, and I realize this can be a contentious subject. But.... while I believe life begins at conception... conception to me means that not only is the egg fertilized, but that it is implanted in the womb and able to begin growing. I mean, you can have an egg and sperm meet in a test tube, and you have a fertilized egg, but it will not develop into a baby just sitting there in a tube. It has to have the proper environment of the womb. A woman doesn't have a viable pregnancy unless a fertilized egg implants into the uterine lining.

 

So in my view, while yes, hormonal birth control does prevent implantation... that, to me, is simply part of preventing conception.

 

And to tie that back to the original, ridiculous assertion... a "womb tomb" isn't biologically possible because either those fertilized eggs will implant, and you'll have a pregnancy (that may or may not continue, but if it doesn't, it's shed from the uterus); or the egg will never implant in the first place, the woman has a cycle as usual, and she is not pregnant.

 

 

I agree.

[PachiSusan]

 

 

Right. This is what I was trying to get across. You would never have a womb full of tiny baby-like fetuses due to bcp use. That is full-stop crazytrain stuff

 

 

Just to be clear- I agree with you on this point and always have. I was never defending him and his thoughts at all.

[ThisIsTheDay]

His assertions are not even medically possible. At all. Really, it's :smilielol5: And Kevin Swanson is (or used to be) the head of CHEC in Colorado. The man has single-handedly turned what used to be a fabulous yearly homeschool convention into a travesty. Last year they would not allow Sonlight to exhibit there because they weren't "Christian" enough. Sonlight. Seriously. :huh:

 

I know very well who he is because I used to be a homeschooler in Colorado and he has a great deal of influence with CHEC, the statewide Christian homeschooling association. He used to be the director of the group but took on a new role to focus more on promoting and expanding Generations with Vision.

 

I also very well know who Kevin Swanson is, as we began homeschooling in Colorado and did so for 5+ years. Sonlight was uninvited to the CHEC conference many years ago--I don't know if that had been resolved or not, but last year was definitely not the first time they weren't welcome.

 

CHEC was very big on promoting *their* curriculum choices for homeschoolers; other opinions were not welcome.

 

Last I knew, Kevin Swanson also pastored a decent sized church in Castle Rock. I would be surprised if this were still not the case.

 

While his statements may be out there, I think it's a leap to say he's fringe--because he's had a large and pretty run of the mill Christian conservative following, at least in Colorado. To think that he has that kind of influence is scary (and I'm a Christian, very-conservative homeschooler, at least by this board's standards).

[Word Nerd]

I also very well know who Kevin Swanson is, as we began homeschooling in Colorado and did so for 5+ years. Sonlight was uninvited to the CHEC conference many years ago--I don't know if that had been resolved or not, but last year was definitely not the first time they weren't welcome.

 

CHEC was very big on promoting *their* curriculum choices for homeschoolers; other opinions were not welcome.

 

Last I knew, Kevin Swanson also pastored a decent sized church in Castle Rock. I would be surprised if this were still not the case.

 

While his statements may be out there, I think it's a leap to say he's fringe--because he's had a large and pretty run of the mill Christian conservative following, at least in Colorado. To think that he has that kind of influence is scary (and I'm a Christian, very-conservative homeschooler, at least by this board's standards).

 

I agree. I'm glad that most of the people posting on this thread are not familiar with the name, but he still has a significant influence in Colorado homeschooling—including at the legislative level—and has been expanding that influence into other states. He's often part of speaker line-ups with Voddie Baucham, Doug Phillips (Vision Forum), Ken Ham, and others in that vein. I remember reading a story in the Denver Post several years ago, and I cringed to see that he was the source quoted as a spokesman for Colorado homeschoolers.

[Miss Marple]

This thread is sort of disheartening me. Can anyone bolster me up a bit? I am home schooling partly because of a religious world view issue, but I'm not out to change anyone else's world view. I want to have places where I can go be with like minded people, but I don't want ALL homeschooling to be just like mine. Where do you find such places of support if all the whackadoodles have been slowly taking over the Christian home schooling groups?

 

 

I'm finding that the whackadoodles are slowly being moved into a separate corner in our area. The homeschooling groups in our area were typically ones that this fella would have been comfortable in, but with many of us getting involved and organizing our own co-ops, etc., I think we are demonstrating that the weirdo types are now in the minority. Honestly, I think they will die off in our area because they aren't reproducing young men to take their places. Their voices are slowly dying out around here and for that I'm truly grateful. I was always considered suspect because I was a woman with a degree who did not hesitate to discuss what I believed and with whom I differed. That was threatening to many of these men. They and their wives and their children avoided me at church and at various homeschool functions - I was one of *those* women and my husband wasn't being a godly leader in the home. They take their "authority" very seriously. I laugh at their supposed authority.

[Jane in NC]

I'm finding that the whackadoodles are slowly being moved into a separate corner in our area. The homeschooling groups in our area were typically ones that this fella would have been comfortable in, but with many of us getting involved and organizing our own co-ops, etc., I think we are demonstrating that the weirdo types are now in the minority. Honestly, I think they will die off in our area because they aren't reproducing young men to take their places. Their voices are slowly dying out around here and for that I'm truly grateful. I was always considered suspect because I was a woman with a degree who did not hesitate to discuss what I believed and with whom I differed. That was threatening to many of these men. They and their wives and their children avoided me at church and at various homeschool functions - I was one of *those* women and my husband wasn't being a godly leader in the home. They take their "authority" very seriously. I laugh at their supposed authority.

 

Could it be that because their voices are dying they are elevating the volume and exaggerating their message?

 

It just seems that a number of people have been going off the deep end lately with fear-mongering and a complete lack of logic. I am particularly disturbed by people who fear the dissemination of knowledge. In my paradigm, knowledge sets us free. I am grateful to my former teachers, professors and mentors.

[Ipsey]

Heck, there are even professional- type women who go very long periods of time - a year or more - without menstruating so they don't have to be bothered with the inconvenience of it.

 

 

 

There are many women. . . not just nefarious "professional" women who choose not to menstruate for a number of reasons, inconvenience is one, yes as are frequent pain, excessive bleeding, and other medical reasons.

 

I don't mean to get my knickers in a twist about this, but. . . we don't need to be critical about how women choose to manage their menses, or how this relates to their choice to be in the work force or not.

[TravelingChris]

Kinsa, I think you and I are very close in our conservativeness but I also disagree with the professionals being the only one who don't want periods. I was a professional but became a homeschooling mom. I didn't decide to not have a period until the confluence of heavy periods met up with me being on coumadin for life. At that point, it wasn't just a convenience to me but to anyone who would be inconvenienced by any potential ER visit I would have to make--- women who are on Coumadin have to monitor the periods closely and if it is too heavy, immediately go to the ER. I didn;'t use hormones since that would be even more likely to cause problems (more clots) but chose endometrial ablation. I am sure Kevin Swanson would disapprove but we probably would already be in his avoid camp since dh had a vasectomy a few years earlier, again for my health reasons. But you can bet that while I don't mind discussing these things with the mostly female audience here, I would not about to discuss them with some guy at a homeschool convention who would be putting my family down.

[Trish]

And now I have music in my head.

 

When yer a Jet you're a Jet all the way...

 

 

"Whackadoodle: The Musical!"

 

This would have so much potential. Think how many topics could be worked in and set to song!

 

Oh, if I only had the time...

[chiguirre]

There are many women. . . not just nefarious "professional" women who choose not to menstruate for a number of reasons, inconvenience is one, yes as are frequent pain, excessive bleeding, and other medical reasons.

 

We had this chat in a group of moms of sn kids. All of the moms of MR female teenagers were singing the praises of Seasonale because it makes their dds' and their lives much easier.

[justamouse]

Only here do I find out about these crazies. :laugh:

 

Someone needs to stop giving these people a microphone. I mean, we have free speech, but if he's all alone speechifying an empty room....

[FaithManor]

Does anyone get the impression that some people, K.S. included, spend an inordinate amount of time worrying about everyone else's personal life? Seriously, I've really never worried that much about business that is between citizen X and his/her doctor or significant other.

 

It makes me wonder if people who are that obsessed with that which is not their business have mental health issues. It feels like some sort of obsessive, compulsive, psychotic need to control everyone else with crazy talk.

 

I don't know. I try not to be judgmental, but it just has a creepy, stalkerish, Jim Jones, kind of feel to it.

 

I tried to listen to a little bit of the nonsense just to get an impression of him since I don't go to homeschool conventions and new very little about him. I couldn't listen long. My brain went to places like - Tom Cruise and the infamous Oprah interview, Jerry Falwell and the TeleTubbies scandal, Bill Gothard and the "midwives have to remove cabbage patch dolls from the home so that mom can safely birth because c.p. dolls are evil" flap, etc.

 

And Sonlight was disinvited because it wasn't Christian enough.....there's a brain twitch for you!

 

Too many people trying to marginalize, categorize, and disenfranchise, everyone else.

 

Faith

[misty.warden]

Does anyone get the impression that some people, K.S. included, spend an inordinate amount of time worrying about everyone else's personal life? Seriously, I've really never worried that much about business that is between citizen X and his/her doctor or significant other.

 

It makes me wonder if people who are that obsessed with that which is not their business have mental health issues. It feels like some sort of obsessive, compulsive, psychotic need to control everyone else with crazy talk.

 

I don't know. I try not to be judgmental, but it just has a creepy, stalkerish, Jim Jones, kind of feel to it.

 

 

 

I think a lot of it depends on if your beliefs extend to you having a responsibility to be a "brother's keeper" and when you see behavior you believe is sinful going on that you should say something and do what you can to prevent it. No doubt some of those people are the whackadoodles who take it too far and do have an erm, unhealthy interest in the type of teA other people are having, but if someone legitimately believes that they have a responsibility to do anything they can to "help" others not sin.

[Miss Marple]

Could it be that because their voices are dying they are elevating the volume and exaggerating their message?

 

I think you're right. I believe they feel threatened because there are many more homeschoolers from different belief systems becoming more vocal. When I started homeschooling, our local hs support group only had 2 or 3 women who held college degrees. That number has increased dramatically in the past 18 years. These women are often more educated than the men who want to control the homeschooling environment locally. The men see that their ability to control the environment is waning and perhaps, as in the case of some we've already identified, they are losing money because people are opting to purchase different materials. The loss of money and power always brings out the real character of a person, IMO. When several of us started our co-op about 10 years ago, the local homeschool support group sent out a letter detailing the evils of putting a student in our co-op :glare: Honestly, the support group was one I never welcome felt welcome at (I dressed incorrectly, spoke inappropriately, wore my hair wrongly, etc.).

[DianeW88]

I'm coming from this from a different experience. I've known Kevin for a number of years, and yes, he's gotten more and more out there. I don't often go to his keynote address because I get a headache from his yelling. He is a passionate man, who strongly believes in what he preaches, and I respect him for that. We parted ways (I worked at the CHEC booth for years at convention) a number of years ago, when my 2nd dd went to USNA. We haven't spoken since my next one went Army. :laugh: We have friends who have left Kevin's church over his stance on education for women. I was saddened when CHEC went to a "family" convention from a hsing convention a few years back. The current head of CHEC, Mike Chapa, was horrified when I asked what he taught at USAFA as I thought Navy girl might have had him when she was on exchange. CHEC still has some good speakers and a great vendor hall and that's what I go for. If I don't get to do a Tiger Cruise with Navy girl I may go to the GHC in Cincinnati this year. I will miss seeing my friends at CHEC and I've been rethinking my annual donation to them. I do value their work with the law and the hsing intro sessions, but the rest of CHEC has changed... Kevin's always been a bit over the top...

 

CHEC used to be an awesome convention, don't you think? I loved it in the good old days at the Holiday Inn. Yes, it was a labyrinth to get through, but they had the best speakers and the best curriculum hall west of the Mississippi (not counting Anaheim). I used to get so much out of going to those. The last one I attended was probably four years ago...what a disappointment!

[G5052]

I think you're right. I believe they feel threatened because there are many more homeschoolers from different belief systems becoming more vocal. When I started homeschooling, our local hs support group only had 2 or 3 women who held college degrees. That number has increased dramatically in the past 18 years. These women are often more educated than the men who want to control the homeschooling environment locally. The men see that their ability to control the environment is waning and perhaps, as in the case of some we've already identified, they are losing money because people are opting to purchase different materials. The loss of money and power always brings out the real character of a person, IMO. When several of us started our co-op about 10 years ago, the local homeschool support group sent out a letter detailing the evils of putting a student in our co-op :glare: Honestly, the support group was one I never welcome felt welcome at (I dressed incorrectly, spoke inappropriately, wore my hair wrongly, etc.).

 

Yes, I think that this is it. Homeschooling used to be largely a religious movement with more uniformity than we see now. I remember going to a convention some 12+ years ago and feeling doubts about my ability to homeschool "properly" because we have a small family, I don't own denim skirts/jumpers, and I've maintained a level of professional employment. There still are conventions like that (I don't go though). I also know some local families who still lean that way, but there certainly is a lot more diversity out there than there was.

 

This whole thing is crazy though. I'm sure that my homeschool-doubting relatives and collegues at work will have some observations to share with me :crying: .

[PineFarmMom]

Honestly, I was not being critical of it. I'm sorry if any of you read it that way. I think of you go back and read what I said, I was not denigrating anyone. Personally, the only ones I've known who have chosen to do it are professional type women, so that's where I draw my observations from. I've known many professional military women who have chosen this path for the convenience of not having to deal with their periods while deployed or on extended duties. I'm not going to play the "SAHM vs Working Mom" game.

 

 

I have read the whole thread, and I agree that Kevin Swanson made some nutty, outrageous comments. I've heard of him, but that's about as far as it goes.

 

About your comments, there was nothing even remotely critical in what you said. I read them and couldn't find how anyone could possibly find anything denigrating in them.

[Tammi K]

I heard Swanson speak at a homeschool conference in Hawaii. One of the things I noticed most about him was his arrogance as he spoke. But, the thing that stood out most of all for me, to the point that I discussed it with dh later that night, was the appalling manner in which he treated his son. The poor kid, about 14 at the time, was doing his best to be helpful and considerate of Dad's wishes, but KS was on him constantly. Of course, not knowing the family dynamics, it wasn't possible to tell if his son had done something to irritate prior to the conference, but even considering that KS was way out of line. I figure any father who can't relate to his own child with Christian charity isn't someone who should be telling me about my Christian walk.

[LibraryLover]

SWB, he does know who you are and claims he used your curriculum for "about 10 minutes." :tongue_smilie:

 

 

I am hoping he hasn't memorized Grovel. The stench of downfall is in the air.

[kalanamak]

 

 

It makes me wonder if people who are that obsessed with that which is not their business have mental health issues. It feels like some sort of obsessive, compulsive, psychotic need to control everyone else with crazy talk.

 

 

 

Then again, it could all just be about money.

[TravelingChris]

A Christian speaker who I really appreciate is Reb Bradley. He talks of how he was wrong in his original ideas about family disciple and how it led to estrangement from one or more of his children and how he has changed and his family dynamics changed. He was much more hardline a long time ago when I first heard him in Sacramento. Then, years later, I heard him in Florida and thought he was giving a very good and needed message.