Another conflict question: Talk with SIL tomorrow

[Robin M]

My Sister in Law finally messaged me that she's willing to talk and will call me and my sister tomorrow. Long story short - the thread is here - they announced they had taken a female partner into their marriage. They've been avoiding all phone calls and would only talk by email. I've tried very hard to be open minded enough to keep communication open, since my mother and father basically shut down about the whole issue.

 

But at this point, my brother's decided the SCA is now his 'chosen' family and is no longer communicating with any of us. So we all decided if that's his choice - we, my 3 sisters and I, don't need to continue contact and are closing the door on any relationship until he decides to grow up and quit living in fantasy land. We decided to leave it all in God's hands (or the universe or whatever you believe in).

 

I messaged my sil one last time because I just needed to make sure all of this was coming directly from her and the other woman (d) hadn't completely taken over their means of communication. SIL confirmed it was herself by answering a question only she could know. So... that's lead me to the here and know. I'm working up a list of questions to ask her - because I want her to talk it out, tell me in her own words what is going on. Really verbalize it. I'm going to avoid anything that will be regarded as an attack or me telling her she is crazy or whatever.

 

So, if you were in my position, what would you ask? Beside why the hell didn't you knock my brother on his block when he approached you with the idea. But in not those exact words. It's come to our attention that polyamorous relationships are prevalent in the SCA and they've been in the group for 25 years now. So I'm thinking this isn't such a stretch. That maybe they've had an open marriage all along but just hid it.

 

I think I just need good thoughts, vibes, prayers that I say the right thing. I just have the weird feeling that subconsciously somewhere in the back of their minds, they knew it was wrong and were looking for a way out. Otherwise they wouldn’t have told us. Yes, I'm conflicted and hate confrontation but going to put on my big girl pants and do this. Now watch her change her mind after I get myself all prepared.

 

If you made it this far, thanks for reading.

[Liz CA]

I think...I would just say that I love them and accept their decision since they are adults and are entitled to their own lifestyle. If you have concerns about your dc, I would word it cautiously and say that you have not talked to your dc about this and would prefer that they are not forcing your hand or something like this.

 

All you can do is love them since you probably don't want to close off all channels of contact. Of course, you may not feel comfortable visiting or going out for dinner with the three of them...and this is up to them to understand.

 

I think I would also stress that you want to remain in contact and not alienate them despite not agreeing or being able to understand.

 

Personally, I'd be in shock and would not know what to think. I don't even want to imagine what my dh would say or think but they need not know any of this of course. My guess is they expect it anyway the way they came across with the info.

[aggieamy]

Robin - I'm sorry. You're family has been in my thoughts and prayers.

 

:grouphug:

 

 

Is the SCA the guys that do the Renaissance festivals? That's suprising. Actually I know some people that are really into that and they have a marriage that I always thought was "interesting". Hmm.

[Trish]

Just wondering what type of issue this is, exactly (if you are even able to define it for yourself). What part is the biggest objection?

 

Religious? Social conformity? Mental health? Family?

 

I would find it tough, too.

[Liz CA]

Can I ask what SCA stands for. I am assuming it's not Scottish Canoe Association??

[aggieamy]

Can I ask what SCA stands for. I am assuming it's not Scottish Canoe Association??

 

LOL. Men in kilts - you can't have just one.

[Liz CA]

LOL. Men in kilts - you can't have just one.

 

:lol::lol::lol:

[amey311]

Can I ask what SCA stands for. I am assuming it's not Scottish Canoe Association??

 

Society for Creative Anachronism

[Catwoman]

I just checked out the SCA (well, OK, their home page, but I clicked on the link, so that counts, right?) and it wasn't at all what I was expecting. I was thinking it might be some sort of religious cult.

 

Maybe it's more of a Renaissance Faire Cult? :tongue_smilie:

 

Seriously, I have no idea why this would be a "lifestyle" for anyone. It seems like more of a silly, fun, masquerade party kind of thing.

 

Clearly, I don't get out much.

 

And I'm starting to feel pretty OK with not getting out much. :D

 

I have no idea what to say to your SIL, because this whole thing is sounding weirder and weirder to me. Personally, I think your SIL is a nut, and that she's getting the short end of the stick (and yes, I do mean it that way...) but now that there's this odd lifestyle thing, I'm completely and totally baffled.

 

I hate to say this about your brother, because he's probably a nice guy, but at what point do these people take off the silly outfits and grow up?

 

I know I'm being mean, but good heavens. I would love to find a way to say that I think all of this is OK, but it sounds like kids playing house and dress-up, and it's so foreign to me that adults would do that. I thought groups like that were regular people who were interested in the Renaissance (or whatever) and had get-togethers where they wore costumes. I never, ever thought they did it as a serious thing. I thought it was tongue-in-cheek.

 

Anyway, I have no idea what you should ask your SIL, except how long she and your brother have had an open marriage and to be sure she's truly OK with it. I think anything else you ask will depend on her answers to the first few questions you ask.

 

I don't know if I could do any of it with a straight face. I tend not to be the most politically correct person about this sort of thing. (But I have to admit that this is beyond the realm of our family experiences, so maybe I'm looking at this differently than others will.)

Edited October 6, 2012 by Catwoman
horrible typo!

[Catwoman]

Can I ask what SCA stands for. I am assuming it's not Scottish Canoe Association??

 

All things considered, I'm willing to bet some serious cash that Mytwoblessings is wishing that's what it stands for. ;)

[besroma]

:grouphug:

[GWOB]

"Sil, I am here for you. While I think my brother is not thinking with the right body parts, I just want you to know that I love you (and my poor dumb brother, bless his heart) and will always be here for you if you need to talk or vent. Please tell me if you are truly happy with this life change. Tell me what I can do to support you. I may not be willing to do xyz, but I am always here. No matter what you choose, you will always be family to me. I love and support you (and my poor dumb brother, bless his heart)."

[Rosie_0801]

I hate to say this about your brother, because he's probably a nice guy, but at what point do these people take off the silly outfits and grow up?

 

What's your hobby? I'd like to make some rude generalisations about you and your mates that have nothing to do with the subject at hand.

 

 

To the OP, if communication is going to be cut off, maybe you should come out and say whatever you want to say. It's probably not going to make things worse.

 

:grouphug:

Rosie

Edited October 6, 2012 by Rosie_0801

[elegantlion]

I remember in high school we had a few people into SCA - we have a huge Ren Fest in our area every year, been going on years. Anyway they helped out the school play, Camelot, with costumes and real swords. This wasn't too many years after Excalibur came out, so King Arthur was still very popular. It was the most excellent play ever. I've been out of school a long time, but that was a highlight of my attendance.

 

I don't know anything about the sub-culture of SCA, but on the exterior it looks like a lot of fun. I know in our area the Ren Fest takes months to put together, there are artisans, people who make chain mail, swords etc. It reminds me of Civil War re-enactors or people that volunteer at living museums.

 

As to your SIL, I would be blunt and nice. Tell her this concept is very foreign to you, you're trying to understand it, and your concern is for her well-being. If she understands up front you're not trying to chastise her, but simply communicate, she'll probably be more open to your questions.

 

Telling her you think this is wrong may or may not be productive. I'm sure she knows that. Telling her she is wrong would be unproductive. You are entitled to hold a view on another person's actions, but the person is also entitled to not agree with you. :D

 

It depends on your long term intent. If you want to keep the lines of communication open ask questions and listen. Remind her you're concerned about her well-being, you want to make sure this isn't BIL's doing and she needs help. Mostly listen.

 

 

If you want to restate the family position and try to change her mind and figure she won't talk to you after this, ask different questions or state your intent up front.

 

Remember your Aristotle: "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." -you don't have to agree with their lifestyle, but it is their lives.

[Cassy]

I'd ask them if they'd all like to come over for dinner so that we could meet their new partner.

 

While I can't imagine ever being able to live like your brother, his wife and their partner, I couldn't condemn them for it. I see it as very little different as the family member who left his beautiful family for a woman many years younger than him, or other family members (yes, more than one) who are gay. I can't truly understand why they are as they are, but I love them and want them in our lives. The more time I spend with them the less important it seems to 'understand'.

 

I believe that if you continue to keep an open-mind it will help all concerned.

[NotSoObvious]

I'd ask them if they'd all like to come over for dinner so that we could meet their new partner.

 

While I can't imagine ever being able to live like your brother, his wife and their partner, I couldn't condemn them for it. I see it as very little different as the family member who left his beautiful family for a woman many years younger than him, or other family members (yes, more than one) who are gay. I can't truly understand why they are as they are, but I love them and want them in our lives. The more time I spend with them the less important it seems to 'understand'.

 

I believe that if you continue to keep an open-mind it will help all concerned.

 

:iagree::iagree: excellent advice

[GailV]

It sounds as though your SIL had years to get used to the concept, while your family had it dropped on them rather like a bomb. Does SIL understand that? Can she give some background on how this idea grew on them over time. Can you let her tell her story? Can you emphasize that this story has probably taken place over decades, and that you might have a changing perspective over the next few months as you mull it all over? I'd really try to keep the door to future communication open.

 

Also, if this is something that's prevalent in the SCA group (which, now that you mention it, I sort of remember hearing before), you'd think other couples had been through the exact same thing. Do their friends in SCA have some perspective? Have they been through some of the same things with their families? Can SIL give you a reading on whether all other extended-families-of-SCA-members-who-decide-to-go-with-this-sort-of-marriage are just a-okay with it? Okay, that last one is a stretch, but you'd think that if they really do have good friends in the group, this would be a reasonably common topic of discussion.

 

 

 

What's your hobby? I'd like to make some rude generalisations about you and your mates that have nothing to do with the subject at hand.

 

 

 

Ummmm, I read this as Cat re-stating something OP said in her original post (we "are closing the door on any relationship until he decides to grow up and quit living in fantasy land"). Sort of how, during the course of an intense discussion, a friend might put something you say into their own words in order to show they understand where you're coming from.

[Catwoman]

What's your hobby? I'd like to make some rude generalisations about you and your mates that have nothing to do with the subject at hand.

 

:glare: :glare: :glare: :glare:

 

I think you are completely misinterpreting my post.

 

Rosie, if she'd said that they did this for fun, I would be all for it -- I had some friends who were into Renaissance Faires, and they got together with friends and had a lot of fun with it. This sounds like more of a lifestyle issue, though, and that's the part I don't understand.

 

I would assume that if this were simply a hobby or casual pastime for them, the OP wouldn't have bothered to mention it. She said that the SCA was her brother's "chosen family," and that doesn't sound anything like a "hobby" to me. It sounds odd.

Edited October 6, 2012 by Catwoman

[DianeW88]

As to your SIL, I would be blunt and nice. Tell her this concept is very foreign to you, you're trying to understand it, and your concern is for her well-being. If she understands up front you're not trying to chastise her, but simply communicate, she'll probably be more open to your questions.

 

Telling her you think this is wrong may or may not be productive. I'm sure she knows that. Telling her she is wrong would be unproductive. You are entitled to hold a view on another person's actions, but the person is also entitled to not agree with you. :D

 

It depends on your long term intent. If you want to keep the lines of communication open ask questions and listen. Remind her you're concerned about her well-being, you want to make sure this isn't BIL's doing and she needs help. Mostly listen.

 

Remember your Aristotle: "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." -you don't have to agree with their lifestyle, but it is their lives.

 

:iagree: I'm not sure what your intent is, but honestly, I'm pretty sure she gets that your family doesn't agree with her new lifestyle. If I were in her shoes, my response to chastisement and a lecture on my behavior by another adult would be to tell you that it's really none of your business. I'm pretty sure she and your brother were only informing your family of their new lifestyle decision as a courtesy...they weren't asking for your permission or blessing in it...they don't need that. If you are trying to maintain a relationship...that wouldn't be the way to go. Because really, what they do within the context of their marriage relationship is only between them and their significant other(s).

 

If you're trying to tell her that you're disgusted by this behavior and that she is no longer welcome in your home or at any family gatherings and that you'd better not ever see their new "spouse" darkening your doorstep, then I guess go ahead and say what you want. But like I said, I'm sure she knows that, and it's not going to change her mind, it'll just destroy your relationship with them.

 

My dh has family members making lifestyle choices that go against both our faith and our sensibilities. In one case, it involves drug use, and that also makes it against the law. However, we have never once scolded, ridiculed, or reprimanded this person for his choices. We have loved him, welcomed him (and his partner) into our home, and tried to show him how important he is to us and our family on every occasion. It has brought tremendous blessings to everyone concerned. At the end of the day, a little grace goes a long way.

[Catwoman]

Ummmm, I read this as Cat re-stating something OP said in her original post (we "are closing the door on any relationship until he decides to grow up and quit living in fantasy land"). Sort of how, during the course of an intense discussion, a friend might put something you say into their own words in order to show they understand where you're coming from.

 

Thanks, Gail. :001_smile:

 

That's exactly what I meant. Having a hobby is one thing, but "living in fantasy land" is something else entirely, and it sounds like the OP's brother and his "wives" are way beyond hobby status.

[hillfarm]

Regarding the SCA, I have been interested in it for years but never quite made the plunge. Things like this are what keep holding me back.

 

Just as with many reenactment groups, it is easy for it to become an all-consuming lifestyle rather than a fun, weekend hobby.

 

Think about it, you get to select who you want to be. You get to live out many of your fantasies and participate in new and exciting things. In truth, many people spend more time with their reeinactor buddies than with their extended family. The group defines you and separates you from the hum drum of daily life. I know many who consider their reeinacting to be a more real and desirable part of their lives than their "mundane" life.

 

Especially if your daily life is a bit dull or filled with troubles, I can easily see the attraction of being able to slip away into an alternate, much more pleasant reality - even if just for the occasional weekend. Not to mention the wonderful educational and theatrical opportunities that abound in many of these groups.

 

And, as with all things, it is also easy to begin to think like others in your peer group. Ideas that are foreign to outsiders may not seem so bad when people you have known and respected for years espouse them.

 

I am not one to hold with open marriage or polygamy. One spouse is quite enough for me to handle, thank you very much. I can't speak for others. I do appreciate that the op is truly concerned for her sil's well-being and would pursue that line of communication to verify that she is fine with this. We don't know but that she might have her own kilted friend waiting in the wings. It is not a lifestyle I would pursue, but since they're not badgering me to join their menage, it hardly matters, does it?

 

On the flip side, what I keep telling my 13yo dd is absolutely true! Actions do have consequences. If someone chooses to pursue a lifestyle that is upsetting to their extended family members, then that relationship may become strained or broken. I have a beloved cousin who has become a person that I am not comfortable being around. She is entitled to her choice and I am entitled to be of another mind. It saddens me that our childhood closeness will never be restored. If I see her at family gatherings, of course I am civil and try to be pleasant, but the closeness will never be restored and that is the way of life.

[Catwoman]

One thing I will say about the OP's SIL is that I give her a lot of credit for her willingness to meet with the OP and discuss the situation. I'm sure she's feeling pretty awkward about it.

 

I think the brother is being a coward by having his wife take all of the heat for this. Maybe she's doing it gladly, but it still seems like it should be his responsibility.

[Mrs Mungo]

I would assume that if this were simply a hobby or casual pastime for them, the OP wouldn't have bothered to mention it. She said that the SCA was her brother's "chosen family," and that doesn't sound anything like a "hobby" to me. It sounds odd.

 

But, if you felt that your family was rejecting you, then might you decide that your friends were your chosen family? Haven't plenty of people here cut of communication with family members?

 

I am not saying that I support his choices or the manner in which he sprung them on his actual family, but I don't really see how this is different than choosing any other group as your family when your own has rejected you.

[Impish]

I just want to say that the SCA holds no responsibility for his choices.

 

If he wasn't using them to justify whatever he's doing, he'd be using something else.

 

SCA, ime, is an awesome organization. Not a covert lifestyle cult luring ppl in to polygamy.

[melmichigan]

Can I ask what SCA stands for. I am assuming it's not Scottish Canoe Association??

 

:lol: My first thought was sexual compulsives anonymous.

[besroma]

:lol: My first thought was sexual compulsives anonymous.

 

That is what I found too when I googled it (in addition to the other)!

[Joanne]

OP, I'd highly encourage you to think of relationship and respect. I'd encourage you to try to strip your intent of any "reasoning" or "changing her mind" thoughts. I'd encourage you to meet with her trying to understand how she might see it - from HER words - and not impose your perspective.

 

I know some couples who have a committed polyamory relationship. I know couples who are "in the lifestyle" (more contemporary term for swingers). They are not the same thing. I realize that either of them go against nearly all versions of Christianity - but outside of that - those choices can be made by healthy, informed, functioning people. OTOH, I have also observed a higher percentage of addiction and dysfunction.

 

I am familiar with SCA; it does not surprise me that they have a higher percentage of alternative relationship configurations. I also know that subcultures (I belong to 2) develop into a community and family function for many people and that can be a GOOD thing.

 

Basically, if you are going to meet with her to change her mind, or to meet her discussions with incredulous "how can you do that", I suggest delaying the meeting.

[celticmom]

I just want to say that the SCA holds no responsibility for his choices.

 

If he wasn't using them to justify whatever he's doing, he'd be using something else.

 

SCA, ime, is an awesome organization. Not a covert lifestyle cult luring ppl in to polygamy.

 

:iagree:Thank you, I have been peripherally to moderately active in the SCA for years and this thread is the first time that I have heard of a polygamous marriage.

[Catwoman]

:lol: My first thought was sexual compulsives anonymous.

 

I'll bet it would have made for a fun thread. :tongue_smilie:

[Robin M]

I think...I would just say that I love them and accept their decision since they are adults and are entitled to their own lifestyle. If you have concerns about your dc, I would word it cautiously and say that you have not talked to your dc about this and would prefer that they are not forcing your hand or something like this.

 

All you can do is love them since you probably don't want to close off all channels of contact. Of course, you may not feel comfortable visiting or going out for dinner with the three of them...and this is up to them to understand.

 

I think I would also stress that you want to remain in contact and not alienate them despite not agreeing or being able to understand.

 

Personally, I'd be in shock and would not know what to think. I don't even want to imagine what my dh would say or think but they need not know any of this of course. My guess is they expect it anyway the way they came across with the info.

 

I've tried to be very cautious in all my communication with them. Stressing unconditional love and trying to be understanding when all I want to do is shake him and beat some sense into him. However, when he publicly makes us look like the bad guys for not accepting his choices, it makes me angry.

 

Robin - I'm sorry. You're family has been in my thoughts and prayers.

 

:grouphug:

 

 

Is the SCA the guys that do the Renaissance festivals? That's surprising. Actually I know some people that are really into that and they have a marriage that I always thought was "interesting". Hmm.

 

Thanks. They live, eat, breath the SCA.

 

Just wondering what type of issue this is, exactly (if you are even able to define it for yourself). What part is the biggest objection?

 

Religious? Social conformity? Mental health? Family?

 

I would find it tough, too.

 

For me it is mostly a moral issue. Have a hard time accepting adultery no matter how many ways its sugar coated.

 

Can I ask what SCA stands for. I am assuming it's not Scottish Canoe Association??

 

Oh, I wish. I canoe, can you.

 

I just checked out the SCA (well, OK, their home page, but I clicked on the link, so that counts, right?) and it wasn't at all what I was expecting. I was thinking it might be some sort of religious cult.

 

Maybe it's more of a Renaissance Faire Cult? :tongue_smilie:

 

Seriously, I have no idea why this would be a "lifestyle" for anyone. It seems like more of a silly, fun, masquerade party kind of thing.

 

Clearly, I don't get out much.

 

And I'm starting to feel pretty OK with not getting out much. :D

 

I have no idea what to say to your SIL, because this whole thing is sounding weirder and weirder to me. Personally, I think your SIL is a nut, and that she's getting the short end of the stick (and yes, I do mean it that way...) but now that there's this odd lifestyle thing, I'm completely and totally baffled.

 

I hate to say this about your brother, because he's probably a nice guy, but at what point do these people take off the silly outfits and grow up?

 

I know I'm being mean, but good heavens. I would love to find a way to say that I think all of this is OK, but it sounds like kids playing house and dress-up, and it's so foreign to me that adults would do that. I thought groups like that were regular people who were interested in the Renaissance (or whatever) and had get-togethers where they wore costumes. I never, ever thought they did it as a serious thing. I thought it was tongue-in-cheek.

 

Anyway, I have no idea what you should ask your SIL, except how long she and your brother have had an open marriage and to be sure she's truly OK with it. I think anything else you ask will depend on her answers to the first few questions you ask.

 

I don't know if I could do any of it with a straight face. I tend not to be the most politically correct person about this sort of thing. (But I have to admit that this is beyond the realm of our family experiences, so maybe I'm looking at this differently than others will.)

 

I realized that his fantasy life has become his reality. I understood finally his statement that we don't know him. No, we don't. We don't know the person who role plays as a bard, knight, baron, etc.

 

I remember in high school we had a few people into SCA - we have a huge Ren Fest in our area every year, been going on years. Anyway they helped out the school play, Camelot, with costumes and real swords. This wasn't too many years after Excalibur came out, so King Arthur was still very popular. It was the most excellent play ever. I've been out of school a long time, but that was a highlight of my attendance.

 

I don't know anything about the sub-culture of SCA, but on the exterior it looks like a lot of fun. I know in our area the Ren Fest takes months to put together, there are artisans, people who make chain mail, swords etc. It reminds me of Civil War re-enactors or people that volunteer at living museums.

 

As to your SIL, I would be blunt and nice. Tell her this concept is very foreign to you, you're trying to understand it, and your concern is for her well-being. If she understands up front you're not trying to chastise her, but simply communicate, she'll probably be more open to your questions.

 

Telling her you think this is wrong may or may not be productive. I'm sure she knows that. Telling her she is wrong would be unproductive. You are entitled to hold a view on another person's actions, but the person is also entitled to not agree with you. :D

 

It depends on your long term intent. If you want to keep the lines of communication open ask questions and listen. Remind her you're concerned about her well-being, you want to make sure this isn't BIL's doing and she needs help. Mostly listen.

 

 

If you want to restate the family position and try to change her mind and figure she won't talk to you after this, ask different questions or state your intent up front.

 

Remember your Aristotle: "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." -you don't have to agree with their lifestyle, but it is their lives.

 

Yes, thank you. I don't intend to tell her she's wrong. She's an adult and will have to come to that realization all by herself. It isn't my place. But since her mother is dead, they won't talk to my parents, my sisters and I are the only ones she can talk to. I think they are living in a bubble world and it's going to pop on its own.

 

I'd ask them if they'd all like to come over for dinner so that we could meet their new partner.

 

While I can't imagine ever being able to live like your brother, his wife and their partner, I couldn't condemn them for it. I see it as very little different as the family member who left his beautiful family for a woman many years younger than him, or other family members (yes, more than one) who are gay. I can't truly understand why they are as they are, but I love them and want them in our lives. The more time I spend with them the less important it seems to 'understand'.

 

I believe that if you continue to keep an open-mind it will help all concerned.

 

I just can't stomach that idea. Not now. Maybe a couple years from now. But being told this is how it is and you have to accept us as unit from now on, just sticks in my craw.

 

It sounds as though your SIL had years to get used to the concept, while your family had it dropped on them rather like a bomb. Does SIL understand that? Can she give some background on how this idea grew on them over time. Can you let her tell her story? Can you emphasize that this story has probably taken place over decades, and that you might have a changing perspective over the next few months as you mull it all over? I'd really try to keep the door to future communication open.

 

Also, if this is something that's prevalent in the SCA group (which, now that you mention it, I sort of remember hearing before), you'd think other couples had been through the exact same thing. Do their friends in SCA have some perspective? Have they been through some of the same things with their families? Can SIL give you a reading on whether all other extended-families-of-SCA-members-who-decide-to-go-with-this-sort-of-marriage are just a-okay with it? Okay, that last one is a stretch, but you'd think that if they really do have good friends in the group, this would be a reasonably common topic of discussion.

 

Ummmm, I read this as Cat re-stating something OP said in her original post (we "are closing the door on any relationship until he decides to grow up and quit living in fantasy land"). Sort of how, during the course of an intense discussion, a friend might put something you say into their own words in order to show they understand where you're coming from.

 

Good idea

[Robin M]

I'm not sure what your intent is, but honestly, I'm pretty sure she gets that your family doesn't agree with her new lifestyle. If I were in her shoes, my response to chastisement and a lecture on my behavior by another adult would be to tell you that it's really none of your business. I'm pretty sure she and your brother were only informing your family of their new lifestyle decision as a courtesy...they weren't asking for your permission or blessing in it...they don't need that. If you are trying to maintain a relationship...that wouldn't be the way to go. Because really, what they do within the context of their marriage relationship is only between them and their significant other(s).

 

If you're trying to tell her that you're disgusted by this behavior and that she is no longer welcome in your home or at any family gatherings and that you'd better not ever see their new "spouse" darkening your doorstep, then I guess go ahead and say what you want. But like I said, I'm sure she knows that, and it's not going to change her mind, it'll just destroy your relationship with them.

 

I just want background. Find out how all this came about. See how she is really feeling. She is an adult and there isn't any thing I can do except listen and then decide what's right for me. Grace - yes, I need to be reminded of it constantly.

 

I just want to say that the SCA holds no responsibility for his choices.

 

If he wasn't using them to justify whatever he's doing, he'd be using something else.

 

SCA, ime, is an awesome organization. Not a covert lifestyle cult luring ppl in to polygamy.

 

I don't believe they are a cult. Just saying polygamy is more common that you think within some of the groups. The SCA has become practically their whole life, is their life. I know he's responsible for his choices.

 

OP, I'd highly encourage you to think of relationship and respect. I'd encourage you to try to strip your intent of any "reasoning" or "changing her mind" thoughts. I'd encourage you to meet with her trying to understand how she might see it - from HER words - and not impose your perspective.

 

I know some couples who have a committed polyamory relationship. I know couples who are "in the lifestyle" (more contemporary term for swingers). They are not the same thing. I realize that either of them go against nearly all versions of Christianity - but outside of that - those choices can be made by healthy, informed, functioning people. OTOH, I have also observed a higher percentage of addiction and dysfunction.

 

I am familiar with SCA; it does not surprise me that they have a higher percentage of alternative relationship configurations. I also know that subcultures (I belong to 2) develop into a community and family function for many people and that can be a GOOD thing.

 

Basically, if you are going to meet with her to change her mind, or to meet her discussions with incredulous "how can you do that", I suggest delaying the meeting.

 

It's more a fact finding mission - get all the data, then make a decision whether I can personally accept this. At this point, I'm having a hard time justifying supporting adultery.

 

 

 

 

Thanks everyone. Grace, calm, listen, bit my tongue and listen some more. I'll work on that.

[Joanne]

I just want background. Find out how all this came about. See how she is really feeling. She is an adult and there isn't any thing I can do except listen and then decide what's right for me. Grace - yes, I need to be reminded of it constantly.

 

 

I don't believe they are a cult. Just saying polygamy is more common that you think within some of the groups. The SCA has become practically their whole life, is their life. I know he's responsible for his choices.

 

 

 

It's more a fact finding mission - get all the data, then make a decision whether I can personally accept this. At this point, I'm having a hard time justifying supporting adultery.

 

Thanks everyone. Grace, calm, listen, bit my tongue and listen some more. I'll work on that.

 

"Adultery" is a fluid term. While I respect your opinion, and the sources that form it, THEY don't see it as adultery. And since they are in the marriage for which "adultery" would be an issue, it's not going to help you find relationship common ground if you don't respect that they don't see it as adultery.

[Catwoman]

Thanks. They live, eat, breath the SCA.

 

....

 

I realized that his fantasy life has become his reality. I understood finally his statement that we don't know him. No, we don't. We don't know the person who role plays as a bard, knight, baron, etc.

 

 

If he were my brother, I think the "living in a fantasy world" might bother me even more than the second wife thing. (If your SIL was my sister, the second wife thing would be what bothered me most, because I would be worried about her self-esteem and her future.) FWIW, I still find wife #2's motives to be suspicious. The way you described her raised some red flags for me.

 

Whatever the case, you're not obligated to accept their lifestyle if you strongly oppose it. You don't have to play nicely and act like it doesn't matter to you. You can acknowledge their choice and tell them you love them, yet still let them know that you think they've gone off the deep end. (You might want to use a nicer term than that. :tongue_smilie:) This is your brother and SIL, not a couple of strangers. I'm not saying you should tell them that they will burn in h*ll for their lifestyle, but I don't think you need to hide your feelings, either -- they certainly aren't hiding theirs from you, and there's no reason why you should worry about making them comfortable if they aren't trying to do the same for you.

 

I hope you won't lose your relationship with your brother over this. :grouphug:

[theYoungerMrsWarde]

I think having a list of questions will come off as an interrogation. Maybe it's just me, or maybe it's just my in-laws, but if I start asking multiple questions, or insisting on answers or clarifications, I get a accused of ambushing/trapping/steamrolling/interrogating, whatever. Even if it's just me trying to get my husband to give an example of applying that day's sermon to his life while we're at his parent's house for Sunday lunch. :glare:

 

ETA: What does the Renaissance have to do with polygamy? I'm only on book one of SOTW, so my history education isn't there yet, but was there really so much polygamy back then? If not, where is the idea coming from, and what does it have to do with their historical lifestyle?

Edited October 6, 2012 by theYoungerMrsWarde

[Robin M]

Just got off the phone with my SIL after talking for an hour. We had a good positive conversation and it didn't come off as an interrogations. One thing I can say about this whole thing is my introverted SIL has come out of her shell and sounds a lot more confident than in the past. Discovered up to now they didn't have an open relationship with anyone else. She knows if this doesn't work out, if anything goes wrong, she has an out and she isn't stuck. I still think my brother's a jerk for ever broaching the subject but that's my opinion. Now I need to think and ponder and decide just how I'm going to handle this. Thanks for all the support and input.

[Rosie_0801]

One thing I can say about this whole thing is my introverted SIL has come out of her shell and sounds a lot more confident than in the past. Discovered up to now they didn't have an open relationship with anyone else. She knows if this doesn't work out, if anything goes wrong, she has an out and she isn't stuck.

 

Well it is good that thought is firmly in place...

 

:grouphug:

Rosie

[elegantlion]

Just got off the phone with my SIL after talking for an hour. We had a good positive conversation and it didn't come off as an interrogations. One thing I can say about this whole thing is my introverted SIL has come out of her shell and sounds a lot more confident than in the past. Discovered up to now they didn't have an open relationship with anyone else. She knows if this doesn't work out, if anything goes wrong, she has an out and she isn't stuck. I still think my brother's a jerk for ever broaching the subject but that's my opinion. Now I need to think and ponder and decide just how I'm going to handle this. Thanks for all the support and input.

 

I'm glad to hear it went well and that she is okay.

[Catwoman]

I'm glad to hear that the conversation went well and that your SIL knows she is not trapped in the relationship.

 

Did she seem enthusiastic about the new "wife" or did she sound more like she was resigned to it?

 

I still feel sorry for her, and think it was a rotten thing of your brother and this woman to do to her.

[dangermom]

ETA: What does the Renaissance have to do with polygamy? I'm only on book one of SOTW, so my history education isn't there yet, but was there really so much polygamy back then? If not, where is the idea coming from, and what does it have to do with their historical lifestyle?

It doesn't have anything to do with the actual Renaissance.

[GailV]

Just got off the phone with my SIL after talking for an hour. We had a good positive conversation and it didn't come off as an interrogations. One thing I can say about this whole thing is my introverted SIL has come out of her shell and sounds a lot more confident than in the past. Discovered up to now they didn't have an open relationship with anyone else. She knows if this doesn't work out, if anything goes wrong, she has an out and she isn't stuck. I still think my brother's a jerk for ever broaching the subject but that's my opinion. Now I need to think and ponder and decide just how I'm going to handle this. Thanks for all the support and input.

 

Thanks for the update. I'm glad she knows she has an out.

[TranquilMind]

"Adultery" is a fluid term. While I respect your opinion, and the sources that form it, THEY don't see it as adultery. And since they are in the marriage for which "adultery" would be an issue, it's not going to help you find relationship common ground if you don't respect that they don't see it as adultery.

 

Really?

 

I think I will help myself to my neighbor's SUV, because "stealing" is a fluid term for me. and *I* don't see taking something I want from someone who has it as "stealing".

 

:tongue_smilie:

[Catwoman]

really?

 

I think i will help myself to my neighbor's suv, because "stealing" is a fluid term for me. And *i* don't see taking something i want from someone who has it as "stealing".

 

:tongue_smilie:

 

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

I wonder if "stealing" is a fluid term for your neighbors, too... :D

Edited October 7, 2012 by Catwoman

[Joanne]

Really?

 

I think I will help myself to my neighbor's SUV, because "stealing" is a fluid term for me. and *I* don't see taking something I want from someone who has it as "stealing".

 

:tongue_smilie:

 

Yes, really.

 

To people in a poly community or lifestyle community, mutual, consentual, disclosed and allowed relationships are not adultery.

 

To *them*, it can be compared to the "what about socialization" question to us. "How can you live with adultery in your marriage" is not a valid question to them; it's not adultery.

 

Adultery would be secretive, unknown, or specifically against the wishes of the spouse or partner.

[Rivka]

Really?

 

I think I will help myself to my neighbor's SUV, because "stealing" is a fluid term for me. and *I* don't see taking something I want from someone who has it as "stealing".

 

:tongue_smilie:

 

Yeah, this is the path that got the last thread locked. But:

 

A polyamorous person would say that cheating/adultery is violating the promises that you made to your spouse, or deceiving them. If opening the relationship is mutually agreed upon and pursued openly and honestly, they don't consider it to be cheating.

 

So, in your analogy, it would be like your neighbor telling you that you could use their SUV, and then someone else getting mad at you for taking something that doesn't belong to you.

[WishboneDawn]

Really?

 

I think I will help myself to my neighbor's SUV, because "stealing" is a fluid term for me. and *I* don't see taking something I want from someone who has it as "stealing".

 

:tongue_smilie:

 

That's a poor comparison. Joanne is talking about consenting relations between adults, you're talking about property. Unless you mean to say that marriage is a property issue then there's no comparison.

[catz]

That's a poor comparison. Joanne is talking about consenting relations between adults, you're talking about property. Unless you mean to say that marriage is a property issue then there's no comparison.

 

:iagree: These are all consenting adults.

 

Robin - glad the conversation with your SIL went reasonably well. :grouphug:

[FaithManor]

If he were my brother, I think the "living in a fantasy world" might bother me even more than the second wife thing. (If your SIL was my sister, the second wife thing would be what bothered me most, because I would be worried about her self-esteem and her future.) FWIW, I still find wife #2's motives to be suspicious. The way you described her raised some red flags for me.

 

Whatever the case, you're not obligated to accept their lifestyle if you strongly oppose it. You don't have to play nicely and act like it doesn't matter to you. You can acknowledge their choice and tell them you love them, yet still let them know that you think they've gone off the deep end. (You might want to use a nicer term than that. :tongue_smilie:) This is your brother and SIL, not a couple of strangers. I'm not saying you should tell them that they will burn in h*ll for their lifestyle, but I don't think you need to hide your feelings, either -- they certainly aren't hiding theirs from you, and there's no reason why you should worry about making them comfortable if they aren't trying to do the same for you.

 

I hope you won't lose your relationship with your brother over this. :grouphug:

 

 

This is what would concern me. In the last two years, my brother and sil have gotten HEAVILY involved in SCA and to their detriment. Now, that's not the organization's fault. My brother and SIL have taken it to an unhealthy extreme all by themselves. At this point, neglecting my niece SIGNIFICANTLY in order to live their fantasy life is their new "norm". At some point, though we always said we would not raise niece for them, I think there is a very strong chance they will ask us to keep her because having this child that requires care, attention, an education, clothing, etc. is an albatross around their necks as they pursue their non-reality.

 

They've developed a world that excludes their extended family most of the time, of course except when they need free babysitting (which is A LOT, but that is the only interaction they are willing to have), excludes their children (one graduating senior who is getting ZERO assistance trying to navigate signing up for the A.C.T's which my parents are paying for because they put all of their money into expensive costumes and can't get his dad to take him to visit any of the colleges on his list or buy him a decent set of dress clothes for his interviews - his older brother is buying that for him, plus their 21 year old is getting married and they don't give a rat's rear, and then their 30 year old married son may as well be dead to them and of course their 11 year old daughter), and now it's affecting my brother's ability to do his job correctly so if he gets fired, well, I have no idea what will happen to them then. My SIL, the narcissist, apparently has her narcissism very well fed by adopting a fantasy lifestyle.

 

I have other family members that have been involved with historical re-enacting before - Civil War, Revolutionary War, and SCA - none have taken it to this kind of lunacy in which fantasy is their new reality. So, I find this to be completely disturbing. Therefore, OP, I think the greater issue is that if they have adopted a "new" reality and the polyamorous relationship is just a manifestation of a deeper psychological issue, that is where my concern would be. I can accept that grown adults will make their own s**ual choices and as long as these adults are consenting and it's not abusive, then I may not like it, I may view it amoral, but live and let live. However, my concern would be that someone is ultimately being abused in this relationship even if they aren't saying it. The potential emotional/mental problems would be the dividing line for my own children because I would be very concerned how this could play out if we spent a lot of time together. Frankly, since this couple has a child (I think you mentioned that in the original thread), I'd want to keep communication with your SIL open, but I would not want this new threesome spending time with my children. If I could find a way to meet them for dinner regularly at restaurants and the like, I definitely would. But, until I felt comfortable that A., aunt and uncle would visit without their partner, and B. no one is being abused or living their SCA persona outside of their SCA events....something that I think is slowly happening with my own SIL as she loses more touch with reality, then C. I would keep my children away from it for their own sakes.

 

Faith

[WIS0320]

I do appreciate that the op is truly concerned for her sil's well-being and would pursue that line of communication to verify that she is fine with this. We don't know but that she might have her own kilted friend waiting in the wings. It is not a lifestyle I would pursue, but since they're not badgering me to join their menage, it hardly matters, does it?

 

On the flip side, what I keep telling my 13yo dd is absolutely true! Actions do have consequences. If someone chooses to pursue a lifestyle that is upsetting to their extended family members, then that relationship may become strained or broken.

 

I've loosely followed the threads regarding this situation and I think what I underlined is not quite the situation. I think the OP's brother expected some measure of acceptance from his family and sought that acceptance in a rather shallow and impersonal way (over email). He now seems mad that his family hasn't responded in the way he wanted them to. That is not exactly the same as "We found out about it and are horrified even though this doesn't involve us!" The brother and his wife intentionally involved their entire family knowing that this is a fringe decision that probably was not going to be welcomed with open arms.

 

As to the OP's question, I'd reiterate that I love her and my brother, that I am concerned for their overall happiness and well-being because the situation seems as if it would be rife with jealousy, conflict and strife. I would not be in a position of support (due to my religious beliefs - the OP may not feel that way) and I would seclude my children from knowledge of the alternative lifestyle and not allow the 2nd wife to attend family events that I hosted that my children would be present at. I would ask her if she were truly happy with the situation and if she felt pressured by her husband to submit to adding a third party to the marriage. If that is the case I would offer help and assistance.

 

Best wishes, OP. I can only imagine that this is a very stressful situation for everyone in your extended family and it does not sound like your brother is appreciative of that fact.

[WIS0320]

This is what would concern me. In the last two years, my brother and sil have gotten HEAVILY involved in SCA and to their detriment. Now, that's not the organization's fault. My brother and SIL have taken it to an unhealthy extreme all by themselves. At this point, neglecting my niece SIGNIFICANTLY in order to live their fantasy life is their new "norm".

 

I've never heard of SCA before this thread (wow, I learn about a lot of new things from WTM boards!) and I'm not sure I understand how an alternative reality can take over. Do they appear mentally ill to others when they are living their daily lives? Do they grocery shop in their medieval clothing? Pretend they are a knight and lady all the time including how they dress? How does one keep a job if they are pretending to be Sir Lancelot instead of Derek the plumber?

 

I don't get it? I don't mean to be snarky, I'm not trying to be. I sincerely don't understand how this can happen when one has to to pay rent or mortgage, gas, food, and other necessities. Are there communities set up with people from SCA who are all living their alternative reality all the time? Like a medieval commune? :bigear:

[Trish]

I'd ask them if they'd all like to come over for dinner so that we could meet their new partner.

 

While I can't imagine ever being able to live like your brother, his wife and their partner, I couldn't condemn them for it. I see it as very little different as the family member who left his beautiful family for a woman many years younger than him, or other family members (yes, more than one) who are gay. I can't truly understand why they are as they are, but I love them and want them in our lives. The more time I spend with them the less important it seems to 'understand'.

 

I believe that if you continue to keep an open-mind it will help all concerned.

 

Right. Why does the family need to agree with the odd lifestyle? It may not be what most people would choose, but unless there's actually harm being done to someone, I don't think it's going to rub off on your family. There are plenty of religious/social precepts about which people disagree, but they still interact as family members. (an "agree to disagree" type thing) Now if someone is being beaten, they're doing illegal drugs, they're running dogfights in the backyard, obviously you don't want to countenance bad/illegal stuff. But living their own lives in a way most people wouldn't? That's really up to them, isn't it?

 

:grouphug: