Breastfeeding dad wants to become LLL leader

[Renthead Mommy]

So a Dad, who went through transgender reassignment but still has female organs, gave birth and was helped to breastfeed by LLL. First off, I love LLL. I think they do incrediblly important work. I think it's great they were able to help him. He wants to pay it forward by becoming a leader and LLL is saying no, you have to be a woman.

 

Apparently the back and forth between the two sides has been very civil and gracious. And while I applaud him wanting to step up, I can see LLL's side. When it was set up, and probably untill this guy made the first phone call, I'm pretty sure they never really entertained the idea of men breastfeeding. And I can also see their point. I can totally understand women being uncomfotable with the idea of a guy leader. Some women are uncomfortable with any leader.

 

I remember my leader standing over me, while nursing and her helping me my son's head as well as ajust how I was holding him, so everything was sort of hanging out at the time. A guy trying to show you that would be weird. And for some people, a guy, who used to be a woman would be even weirder. So I get it. However with the wonderful ways families of today are growing and evloving, I can see this issue coming up again. I think LLL should make him a special consultant for future transgender parents.

 

http://shine.yahoo.com/parenting/breastfeeding-dad-trevor-macdonald-lllc.html

 

http://shine.yahoo.com/parenting/breastfeeding-dad-trevor-macdonald-lllc.html

[Mrs Mungo]

Another problem? He never breastfed exclusively. There was pumping and use of an SNS with supplementation. LLL generally wants leaders who have exclusively breastfed. I know working moms (in the past at least, my kids are older now and I haven't been involved for a long time) who were rejected for leadership for this very reason.

 

I think making consultants for special situations such as working, adoption, etc is a good idea. I just don't know how they would handle that from an insurance perspective.

[Impish]

No way in Hades would I want a male LLL leader.

 

Nope, nope, nope, nope.

[MiniBlondes]

No way in Hades would I want a male LLL leader.

 

Nope, nope, nope, nope.

 

This.

[snowbeltmom]

No way in Hades would I want a male LLL leader.

 

Nope, nope, nope, nope.

:iagree:

I don't believe that he really thinks new mothers would be comfortable with his assistance. He is just looking for his 15 minutes of fame.

[clarkacademy]

:iagree:

I don't believe that he really thinks new mothers would be comfortable with his assistance. He is just looking for his 15 minutes of fame.

 

:iagree:

[Mrs Mungo]

:iagree:

I don't believe that he really thinks new mothers would be comfortable with his assistance. He is just looking for his 15 minutes of fame.

 

I do tend to agree with this a bit. He has all of his female parts (except for some chest surgery) and is married to a man. He got pregnant the usual way. But, a huge deal was made in the press about a pregnant man? I just don't know about the motives there.

[ErinE]

:iagree:

I don't believe that he really thinks new mothers would be comfortable with his assistance. He is just looking for his 15 minutes of fame.

 

Agreed. The entire premise of a "man" getting pregnant was ridiculous. I guess "transgendered man who still has his lady bits" didn't make a pithy enough headline.

[*Michelle*]

Uh, how many ways does this guy want to have it? Born a woman and transgendered to male, but kept female reproductive organs, but says he's a homosexual and married a guy, and wants to be the leader of a lactation group?

 

My head is hurting.

[Cricket]

Uh, how many ways does this guy want to have it? Born a woman and transgendered to male, but kept female reproductive organs, but says he's a homosexual and married a guy, and wants to be the leader of a lactation group?

 

My head is hurting.

 

It makes me sad that society takes a person with obvious serious struggles and puts them out there as some sort of circus side show.

 

And I still don't get how someone who still has female anatomy can be legitimately referred to as a male. :confused:

[*Michelle*]

Also, the pic shows him using a supplemental feeding tube (which makes sense if he had a bilateral mastectomy.) LLL seems within its rights to say he can't be a leader. After all, any guy out there could use a supplemental feeding system to "breastfeed" an infant.

 

Still trying to wrap my head around this.

[ktgrok]

It makes me sad that society takes a person with obvious serious struggles and puts them out there as some sort of circus side show.

 

And I still don't get how someone who still has female anatomy can be legitimately referred to as a male. :confused:

 

Well, there are people who just financially can't afford the surgery, and I get that. But they are living their lives as a man. If you are married to a man, getting pregnant, nursing a baby, and trying to lead LLL you are not living as a man. That is living as a woman.

[Heather in Neverland]

Uh, how many ways does this guy want to have it? Born a woman and transgendered to male, but kept female reproductive organs, but says he's a homosexual and married a guy, and wants to be the leader of a lactation group?

 

My head is hurting.

 

Wow. That is really confusing. So, if he changed to being a male does that make his dh gay? Or if he still has his lady bits, is his dh straight?

[Jpoy85]

I have to agree with LLL's decision on this issue.

 

They wont even let guys at the meetings, why would they let him/her be a leader. They have a reason for this policy im sure.

[Mrs Mungo]

It makes me sad that society takes a person with obvious serious struggles and puts them out there as some sort of circus side show.

 

But, he is clearly seeking out that publicity.

 

Well, there are people who just financially can't afford the surgery, and I get that. But they are living their lives as a man. If you are married to a man, getting pregnant, nursing a baby, and trying to lead LLL you are not living as a man. That is living as a woman.

 

I tend to agree.

 

Eta: It makes me wonder what he thinks it is to be a man or a woman.

Edited August 24, 2012 by Mrs Mungo

[Mrs Mungo]

Wow. That is really confusing. So, if he changed to being a male does that make his dh gay? Or if he still has his lady bits, is his dh straight?

 

Good question. I mean, the dude with the baby has a v*gina. I don't mean to be insensitive, but it is a really unusual situation.

[snowbeltmom]

It makes me sad that society takes a person with obvious serious struggles and puts them out there as some sort of circus side show.

 

And I still don't get how someone who still has female anatomy can be legitimately referred to as a male. :confused:

 

Exactly. Although I don't think "society" is putting him out there - he is completely responsible for the circus side show. I feel sorry for the child.

[Renthead Mommy]

I had forgotten about the "exclusive breastfeeding" part about leading. And I agree that should exclude him from leading. If it excludes women, it should also exclude men. But I still think he should certainly be made a special consultant for men, both transgender and orginal, who want to breastfeed.

 

Also some people don't through the entire surgery process simply because it is so extremely expensive. If you are male, stuck in a woman's body, so you go through gender reassignment (or as much of it as you can afford) to live as a male, then fall in love with a man, that does make you gay. The fact he was a woman before is beside the point. It is what he identifies as now.

 

And couples want babies. What couples, both straight and gay go through to get a baby is amazing sometimes. This couple, even though they are two men, had the ablity to have a child. So they did. I don't see that saying "yeah I'm sort of a guy, but still woman enough to have a baby." I see that as, well the parts are still there, so I might as well use them to fulfill our want of a child.

 

Sure he may be looking for his 15 minutes, but I also see him as a mentor for other fathers and future fathers out there. So I say good for him for trying.

[*Michelle*]

Also some people don't through the entire surgery process simply because it is so extremely expensive. If you are male, stuck in a woman's body, so you go through gender reassignment (or as much of it as you can afford) to live as a male, then fall in love with a man, that does make you gay. The fact he was a woman before is beside the point. It is what he identifies as now.

 

In the Out Magazine article, he says that he's happy with having female organs. Also, he self-identified as gay.

[butterflymommy]

He should have thought about wanting to breastfeed his babies before he had his boobs chopped off!

[Jpoy85]

He should have thought about wanting to breastfeed his babies before he had his boobs chopped off!

 

:lol:

[Mrs Mungo]

I had forgotten about the "exclusive breastfeeding" part about leading. And I agree that should exclude him from leading. If it excludes women, it should also exclude men. But I still think he should certainly be made a special consultant for men, both transgender and orginal, who want to breastfeed.

 

Also some people don't through the entire surgery process simply because it is so extremely expensive. If you are male, stuck in a woman's body, so you go through gender reassignment (or as much of it as you can afford) to live as a male, then fall in love with a man, that does make you gay. The fact he was a woman before is beside the point. It is what he identifies as now.

 

And couples want babies. What couples, both straight and gay go through to get a baby is amazing sometimes. This couple, even though they are two men, had the ablity to have a child. So they did. I don't see that saying "yeah I'm sort of a guy, but still woman enough to have a baby." I see that as, well the parts are still there, so I might as well use them to fulfill our want of a child.

 

Sure he may be looking for his 15 minutes, but I also see him as a mentor for other fathers and future fathers out there. So I say good for him for trying.

 

Again, that *really* pushes the lines on what it means to be a man or a woman. You are married to a man, get pregnant *the normal way* (not really going through anything more than normal to have a baby, so not amazing), give birth, breastfeed and seek LLL Leadership, then why not just be a woman who looks/acts more butch than average? Why the need to label yourself a man? That is what I don't get. Ultimately, isn't it just a label at that point? There is no intent to change to a biological male. Again, I am not trying to be insensitive. I just don't understand the need for a new label in *this* situation. Other situations are very different.

 

And even if he did call himself a woman, then he still would not be eligible for LLL Leadership due to the supplementing.

Edited August 24, 2012 by Mrs Mungo

[phathui5]

No, I don't think he should be a LLL leader. It may be a breastfeeding group, but it is also a women's group. It's all about mothers helping other mothers.

[snowbeltmom]

Sure he may be looking for his 15 minutes, but I also see him as a mentor for other fathers and future fathers out there. So I say good for him for trying.

It is not politically correct to say, but I don't see him as a good mentor for anyone. He seems like an extremely confused individual: He does not want to identify as a woman, but he is attracted to men, carried a baby to term, and is breastfeeding. That is not a definition of a man.

[Hoot]

And I still don't get how someone who still has female anatomy can be legitimately referred to as a male. :confused:

 

This!

[Impish]

It makes me sad that society takes a person with obvious serious struggles and puts them out there as some sort of circus side show.

 

And I still don't get how someone who still has female anatomy can be legitimately referred to as a male. :confused:

I don't see it as society putting him out as a side show, he seems to be jumping up and down yelling 'LOOK AT ME!!!!!' and putting himself out there.

[ErinE]

Sure he may be looking for his 15 minutes, but I also see him as a mentor for other fathers and future fathers out there. So I say good for him for trying.

 

I don't care what he calls himself, how he lives his life, or that he's attracted to men. I understand that there are people who self-identify opposite the gender they are born with or even no gender at all. But, he conducts himself as a biological female (giving birth, nursing), not male. He's using his personal definition of himself to springboard into the public eye. He can call himself whatever he wants, but physically, he's not special.

 

I can call myself an Olympic athlete, but that doesn't mean I'm going to Rio in 2016.

[Miss Marple]

He has all of his female parts .

:lol::lol::lol::lol:

 

 

I'm laughing so hard at what we now have to deal with...she still has her female parts. No matter what they want us to think...they still retain the gender with which they were born. I know this is politically incorrect rhetoric, but it is certainly biologically correct :D

 

And I agree that many women would be terribly uncomfortable with a person who was obviously so uncomfortable with her own gender helping them with a very "gender specific" issue.

[Miss Marple]

Again, that *really* pushes the lines on what it means to be a man or a woman. You are married to a man, get pregnant *the normal way* (not really going through anything more than normal to have a baby, so not amazing), give birth, breastfeed and seek LLL Leadership, then why not just be a woman who looks/acts more butch than average? Why the need to label yourself a man? That is what I don't get. Ultimately, isn't it just a label at that point? There is no intent to change to a biological male. Again, I am not trying to be insensitive. I just don't understand the need for a new label in *this* situation. Other situations are very different.

 

And even if he did call himself a woman, then he still would not be eligible for LLL Leadership due to the supplementing.

 

:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:

[Parrothead]

How. Odd. :confused:

 

Dude(tte) is really messed up. :001_huh:

[Remudamom]

Whole thing makes me sick. Blast away.

[jujsky]

I consider myself a fairly open person when it comes to differences, but I wouldn't be entirely comfortable with a male LLL leader -- and he IS male now, whether or not he was born a woman. I like the idea of him being a special consultant because this issue could well come up again, but I don't think he has any place as a regular group leader.

 

Edited to add: at least he looks like a man, and he got his boobs chopped off for non-medical reasons. Uterus or not -- he's man enough to the point where I wouldn't be comfortable, and I have many gay/lesbian/transgender friends.

Edited August 24, 2012 by jujsky

[Kathryn]

Uh, how many ways does this guy want to have it? Born a woman and transgendered to male, but kept female reproductive organs, but says he's a homosexual and married a guy, and wants to be the leader of a lactation group?

 

My head is hurting.

 

Well, there are people who just financially can't afford the surgery, and I get that. But they are living their lives as a man. If you are married to a man, getting pregnant, nursing a baby, and trying to lead LLL you are not living as a man. That is living as a woman.

 

Again, that *really* pushes the lines on what it means to be a man or a woman. You are married to a man, get pregnant *the normal way* (not really going through anything more than normal to have a baby, so not amazing), give birth, breastfeed and seek LLL Leadership, then why not just be a woman who looks/acts more butch than average? Why the need to label yourself a man? That is what I don't get. Ultimately, isn't it just a label at that point? There is no intent to change to a biological male. Again, I am not trying to be insensitive. I just don't understand the need for a new label in *this* situation. Other situations are very different.

 

And even if he did call himself a woman, then he still would not be eligible for LLL Leadership due to the supplementing.

 

:lol::lol::lol::lol:

 

 

I'm laughing so hard at what we now have to deal with...she still has her female parts. No matter what they want us to think...they still retain the gender with which they were born. I know this is politically incorrect rhetoric, but it is certainly biologically correct :D

 

And I agree that many women would be terribly uncomfortable with a person who was obviously so uncomfortable with her own gender helping them with a very "gender specific" issue.

 

:iagree: with these and more. first, I won't call this person a he. She has her girl parts, gave birth, and nursed. She's married legally to man, AS a woman, if I recall correctly.

 

This has seemed from the beginning to me to be a confused and attention-hungry person. The rules of LLL preclude her involvement even without considering the gender identification issue. This shouldn't be an issue.

[kitten18]

There's so much to quote that I don't even know where to start.

 

The whole thing has me very confused.:001_huh::tongue_smilie:

 

 

I do not think he should be allowed to be a LLL leader.

[BearWallowSchool]

:001_huh: I can't believe this is even an issue. :confused: I'm glad LLL is saying no.

[liber]

As this is happening here in Canada I wouldn't be surprised if he files a complaint with the Canadian Human Rights Tribunal and then LLL will be forced to take him on as a leader and will be legally mandated to be more inclusive.

[Mrs Mungo]

As this is happening here in Canada I wouldn't be surprised if he files a complaint with the Canadian Human Rights Tribunal and then LLL will be forced to take him on as a leader and will be legally mandated to be more inclusive.

 

I doubt they said it was because he is a man. I bet it's because he didn't exclusively breastfeed. It's a rule to be a leader. Nothing to do with race, sex, etc.

[liber]

I doubt they said it was because he is a man. I bet it's because he didn't exclusively breastfeed. It's a rule to be a leader. Nothing to do with race, sex, etc.

 

LLL doesn't have to say whether it was because he was a man or not. If the guy feels that way he can still bring a complaint and he will probably be heard.

[thescrappyhomeschooler]

Well, there are people who just financially can't afford the surgery, and I get that. But they are living their lives as a man. If you are married to a man, getting pregnant, nursing a baby, and trying to lead LLL you are not living as a man. That is living as a woman.

 

:lol::lol: The way you said this makes me :lol:

 

I guess I agree with this somewhat. I have no problem with the way anyone chooses to live his/her life, but as someone else said, you can't have it both ways. If you want to be a man, be a man. If you want to get pregnant and nurse, sorry, that's kind of a woman's body's function.

[Audrey]

I think LLL should make him a special consultant for future transgender parents.

 

 

:iagree: That would be a very progressive idea. I'm not sure how it would all play out, though.

Edited August 24, 2012 by Audrey

[MissKNG]

No way in Hades would I want a male LLL leader.

 

Nope, nope, nope, nope.

 

 

Ding, ding, ding!! We have a winner!!

[Loudwater School]

I'm laughing so hard at what we now have to deal with...she still has her female parts. No matter what they want us to think...they still retain the gender with which they were born. I know this is politically incorrect rhetoric, but it is certainly biologically correct :D

 

Politics and biology aside, we can look at the English language for what's correct, and also at etiquette.

 

Sex refers to one's biological male or female-ness.

 

Gender refers to the way society perceives you and the roles they assign you.

 

Identify refers to the way one sees him or herself.

 

Sexual orientation refers to which genders one is attracted to.

 

So this person's sex is not female or male, it's intersex, because of the lack of breasts and the male hormones s/he's been taking.

 

This person's gender is male, because most people looking at him or her would see a man before they stopped to analyse it, and they would subconsciously expect from him what they expect from a man. We are all perturbed in part because this is a person who seems male, doing things that women do. It doesn't fit, and I kind of agree that he's playing it really close to the line here in terms of gender.

 

The person's identity is also male. Some scientists currently think this happens because in utero a baby's brain is washed with the hormones of that gender. Basically a neurological birth defect, if the politically correct among us will excuse the negativity of that phrasing. It is really just chemical, not at all a conscious process of, "well, women like to knit, cook and breastfeed, and i like those things, so I must be a woman." It's just an ineffable sense of one's own being that is induced by the chemicals in our brains.

 

The person's sexual orientation is really tricky, because in English we define it not as "attracted to men," "attracted to women," or "attracted to both," but as "attracted to those like ourselves," and "attracted to the opposite sex/gender." But when you are intersex, what is the opposite sex?

 

So a dictionary would tell us this is a dude.

 

Anyway, etiquette I think has always called for allowing a person to define themselves, and for humoring their sillinesses in that area when they do no harm.

 

As an aside, I have heard stories of men breastfeeding babies. There was one famous sailor in the 1800s who put his infant to his breast just to comfort her after his wife died aboard, there being no other woman available to nurse her for him. To his great surprise and delight, after much suckling he eventually produced milk and the newborn survived on that and supplementary food. I know personally a man who thought it would be cool to breastfeed and induced lactation chemically but gave it up when the baby was small because she preferred her mom. So it's not like men NEVER do that... and I suppose transgendered people shouldn't have to play out their gender all the way hard on the Very Very Male side of the spectrum of male-typical behavior.

 

I don't think this guy is wrong to put himself out there. His blog and advice will be helpful to all parents who are going through similar weirdnesses, and there are plenty of them.

 

I kind of agree that LLL should take him on board somehow as a consultant to trans or gay adoptive families who want to breastfeed.

Edited August 24, 2012 by Loudwater School

[I.Dup.]

Uh, how many ways does this guy want to have it? Born a woman and transgendered to male, but kept female reproductive organs, but says he's a homosexual and married a guy, and wants to be the leader of a lactation group?

 

My head is hurting.

 

I don't believe that he really thinks new mothers would be comfortable with his assistance. He is just looking for his 15 minutes of fame.

 

:iagree::001_huh:

[JenC3]

Again, that *really* pushes the lines on what it means to be a man or a woman. You are married to a man, get pregnant *the normal way* (not really going through anything more than normal to have a baby, so not amazing), give birth, breastfeed and seek LLL Leadership, then why not just be a woman who looks/acts more butch than average? Why the need to label yourself a man? That is what I don't get. Ultimately, isn't it just a label at that point? There is no intent to change to a biological male. Again, I am not trying to be insensitive. I just don't understand the need for a new label in *this* situation. Other situations are very different.

 

And even if he did call himself a woman, then he still would not be eligible for LLL Leadership due to the supplementing.

 

I agree. How can you be gay when um your a woman with a man?

[*Michelle*]

So this person's sex is not female or male, it's intersex, because of the lack of breasts and the male hormones s/he's been taking.

 

I will disagree here and say that this person's sex is still female because, genetically, the person has two X sex chromosomes. Surgical removal of breasts and testosterone supplements don't change one's genes.

[justLisa]

This is absolutely the most absurd thing I think I have ever heard.

[Delirium]

Well, there are people who just financially can't afford the surgery, and I get that. But they are living their lives as a man. If you are married to a man, getting pregnant, nursing a baby, and trying to lead LLL you are not living as a man. That is living as a woman.

:iagree:

 

I also agree that a special consultant for future trans issues could be helpful. But if LLL has always had breast only leaders then the rules shouldn't bend because s/he is well s/he.

[Mrs Mungo]

I also agree that a special consultant for future trans issues could be helpful. But if LLL has always had breast only leaders then the rules shouldn't bend because s/he is well s/he.

 

Ultimately, all of the transgendered issues aside, this is the bottom line, IMO. BUT, I don't know how that would work. There are already LLL pamphlets for stuff like using an SNS to supplement and adoptive breastfeeding. LLL doesn't typically *do* specialized consultants. I mean, I guess they *could*, but again, their insurance has covered Leaders a certain way for a long time. I'm not sure how they would manage the *insurance* portion. Because, LLL Leaders are covered by LLL in case something goes wrong with a breastfeeding case.

 

But, for the record, anyone can call themselves a lactation consultant in the US, you don't *need* LLL for that. So, again, I don't get his need for the special label.

[Cricket]

Ultimately, all of the transgendered issues aside, this is the bottom line, IMO. BUT, I don't know how that would work. There are already LLL pamphlets for stuff like using an SNS to supplement and adoptive breastfeeding. LLL doesn't typically *do* specialized consultants. I mean, I guess they *could*, but again, their insurance has covered Leaders a certain way for a long time. I'm not sure how they would manage the *insurance* portion. Because, LLL Leaders are covered by LLL in case something goes wrong with a breastfeeding case.

 

But, for the record, anyone can call themselves a lactation consultant in the US, you don't *need* LLL for that. So, again, I don't get his need for the special label.

 

Because then it wouldn't be in the papers and garner that 15 minutes of fame and make him feel like a hero that he is somehow advancing a cause which no one can define? :tongue_smilie:

[Miss Marple]

Politics and biology aside, we can look at the English language for what's correct, and also at etiquette.

 

Sex refers to one's biological male or female-ness.

 

Gender refers to the way society perceives you and the roles they assign you.

 

Identify refers to the way one sees him or herself.

 

Society at one time preceived her as what her Sex is - female. I can identify myself with a donkey all day long but the TRUTH is I would be a very mixed up human being.

 

 

 

This person's gender is male, because most people looking at him or her uld see a man before they stopped to analyse it, and they would subconsciously expect from him what they expect from a man.

 

Dressing myself up as a donkey doesn't change the fact that I'm not a donkey. Implanting a tail and ears still won't change the fact that I'm not a donkey

 

 

So a dictionary would tell us this is a dude

See, I wouldn't define humanity by the dictionary - I would look to science and the science says she's female. She can call herself what she wants, she can look how she wants, she can "love" whom she wants, etc. Doesn't make her a dude.

 

 

Anyway, etiquette I think has always called for allowing a person to define themselves, and for humoring their sillinesses in that area when they do no harm.

 

I think etiquette takes a back seat to truth. I wouldn't want my adult child calling himself a donkey without taking the time to inform him otherwise :D His choice doesn't preclude me calling him what he is - etiquette or not. Sorta like the Emperor's New Clothes ;)

 

 

 

:001_smile: