Breastfeeding dad wants to become LLL leader

[Free]

I'm afraid that we are facing a generation of the most confused young adults in the history of mankind. There may have always been those who felt they were the wrong gender, but now just the fact it is talked about and accepted so much will cause people to begin to question and fear they are not what they should be when they may never have questioned it before.

 

But, isn't it a good thing that society is finally confronting these issues that always existed and trying to address them in a way that is meaningful to those impacted?

[Miss Marple]

If my child said they were something they are not, I'd think they need psychiatric help. And I'd be furious if the supposed psychiatric "help" was to go along with the delusion. I can't think why that would ever be healthy. It's like telling someone with severe paranoia that yes, everyone is out to get them. It's wrong and unethical. :(

 

I think Cynthia might have been better off with a less... Insulting... Animal of choice. Personally, I use flamingos for these kinds of analogies. I like flamingos. We could go with Shakespeare. A gal by any other name....

 

But the general statement? Yes, I agree with her.

 

LOL! Sorry about the donkey reference. As I was typing a response, I was watching an episode of Rosemary and Thyme where Rosemary was getting Mrs. Thyme a Christmas present - it was a stuffed donkey turned into a reindeer. Hence, the donkey was the first thing that came to mind. :D

Edited August 25, 2012 by CynthiaOK

[Miss Marple]

It is not less insulting when you use flamingos, for crying out loud. We're talking about human beings here, struggling with incredibly painful issues. Gender is about more than body parts, people.

 

 

While I can't feel that the use of donkeys or flamingos is insulting because one often uses the absurd to illustrate a point, I do agree that these people are truly struggling with a very painful identity crisis. I feel a great deal of compassion for them (and I have had opportunity to be around these people). But we would probably disagree on the way one should show support for/to them.:001_smile:

[Parrothead]

[/b]

 

 

 

But in the case of the article, you have a genetic female who is attracted to males like the majority of females are, who has also done some partial gender reassignment in order to be gay? I have to be honest, I have never seen this before and it makes no sense to me.

 

My second thought was that maybe this person fell for a gay man and the only way to get said gay man's attention in that respect was to become a gay man. Women have done some weird and convoluted things in the name of love before.

 

The fact that he identifies himself as a man attracted to other men, makes him a gay man irrespective of his biological gender.

 

If he chose the gender reassignment surgery, it is because he was male trapped in a female body. He wished to correct the biological gender of his body to his gender identity. If he is attracted to males, that is because he is (and always was gay).

 

ETA: A person's gender identity and sexual orientation are two different things. The biological gender in some unfortunate cases does not match the person's identified gender.

This kind of makes sense, but I'm still :confused::confused:

[Renthead Mommy]

[/b]

 

But in the case of the article, you have a genetic female who is attracted to males like the majority of females are, who has also done some partial gender reassignment in order to be gay? I have to be honest, I have never seen this before and it makes no sense to me.

 

If you are a female who wants to give birth, nurse, and you are naturally attracted to men, why would you become a male? People say all the time that homosexuals don't "choose" it and I can buy that. But in this case, the person is born a female, attracted to males, which makes her STRAIGHT and she then becomes a male but still is attracted to males which makes her-now-him GAY.

 

Isn't this choosing to be homosexual? I am NOT being snarky. I truely am confused by the whole thing. It would be like my cousin undergoing gender reassignment to become a man then giving up women and starting to date men. It makes my head spin.

 

I say good for him for finding a way to not only fulfill their want for a child, but for doing what is best for that child by giving it as much milk as he could.

 

 

 

.

 

He became a man because that was what he felt/believed himself to be. That is one issue. The fact that as a man, he is attracted to men is a different issue. Thos two are not necessarily related. He may have been born female, and attracted to males, but he choose to follow and change to what he felt he really was.

 

As to why he would use his 'female' organs to have a child, is probably because HE WANTED A CHILD! I am still amazed that people aren't getting this. After all the posts on here about TTC, caring to term, adopting and what parents are willing to go through in order to get a child I can't believe people aren't understanding this.

 

For him to be willing to give up his meds, and do what he did, by getting pregant shows how much he wanted a child. Can you image going through life questioning your gender. Then changing your life and having surgury to get that gender. After all that, you live your life as a man, having people accept you as a man, then because you want kids you get pregnant AS A MAN! Can you imagine how that must have affected his life?

 

Then you have a baby and want to do what is best for that baby, you do your best to nurse with as much milk as you can. The board goes on and on about the importants of breastfeeding. Yes this dad, who was able to produce a least some milk, went through what he went through to be able to give his child the benifits of breastfeeding.

[Murphy101]

While I can't feel that the use of donkeys or flamingos is insulting because one often uses the absurd to illustrate a point, I do agree that these people are truly struggling with a very painful identity crisis. I feel a great deal of compassion for them (and I have had opportunity to be around these people). But we would probably disagree on the way one should show support for/to them.:001_smile:

 

:iagree:

[happypamama]

On a lighter note is anyone else remembering The Office episode where Pam had a male LC and she was ok with it, but Jim was all :001_huh:? It was hilarious!

 

I thought of that too! (And I think it was actually Jenna Fischer's husband/boyfriend who played the LC too.) That, plus the fact that the local WIC office here has a male employee working to help support nursing moms, made me think that there really could be a place for men supporting breastfeeding, and if we really want to improve breastfeeding rates, we need as much support for women as we can get. If approximately half of the population is told, "no, you can't offer whatever support you might be able to," that's not really so great. I'm not sure the person in the article is going about it the right way, but surely, he can help someone in some way, can't he?

 

A good many midwives are never going to have personally experienced some of the situations they're going to encounter as caregivers (maybe they've never had twins, or a breech baby, or a sunny-side up baby, or a very long labor, or whatever), but they can still apply the book knowledge and apprenticeships and studies of other births and everything and do a reasonable job. My husband's never given birth or breastfed, but he's watched me do it a bunch of times, and he's done his homework; I've seen him pass on good, quality information to other dads. Surely a man could be a good LC (albeit many women would not be comfortable with that).

[Tammyla]

Wasn't this particular person born a herm@phrodite? That changes the whole question imo.

[AdventureMoms]

While I can't feel that the use of donkeys or flamingos is insulting because one often uses the absurd to illustrate a point, I do agree that these people are truly struggling with a very painful identity crisis. I feel a great deal of compassion for them (and I have had opportunity to be around these people). But we would probably disagree on the way one should show support for/to them.:001_smile:

 

Well, that is certainly true.

[Heather in Neverland]

 

As to why he would use his 'female' organs to have a child, is probably because HE WANTED A CHILD! I am still amazed that people aren't getting this. After all the posts on here about TTC, caring to term, adopting and what parents are willing to go through in order to get a child I can't believe people aren't understanding this.

 

For him to be willing to give up his meds, and do what he did, by getting pregant shows how much he wanted a child. Can you image going through life questioning your gender. Then changing your life and having surgury to get that gender. After all that, you live your life as a man, having people accept you as a man, then because you want kids you get pregnant AS A MAN! Can you imagine how that must have affected his life?

 

Then you have a baby and want to do what is best for that baby, you do your best to nurse with as much milk as you can. The board goes on and on about the importants of breastfeeding. Yes this dad, who was able to produce a least some milk, went through what he went through to be able to give his child the benifits of breastfeeding.

 

I never said anything about WHY he/she conceived a child. I understand why.

 

I know that some people are born of one sex and in their minds think they are another and then go to drastic measures to physically become who they think they already are in their minds. I get that.

 

But no one is answering my question as to how this ties into this person's choice to be gay when so many say it isn't a choice. This person was NOT born a gay male. This person was born a straight female. This person chose to change their gender and become a gay male. The two are inextricably linked.

 

At any rate, I am leading this thread off on a rabbit trail and I didn't mean to. The whole thing is just so absolutely confusing. You can't really blame the general population for not understanding something that is as convoluted as this.

 

As for this person's choice to be a LLL leader, it doesn't matter to me. I bottle-fed my children. This person could possibly fill a niche in the LGBT community but I understand why a lot of women would not feel comfortable with it. We don't vilify women for wanting a female OB. I think this would fall in that same category.

 

 

.

[AdventureMoms]

I don't care whether or not he is transgendered, I think the point is that he is a man. I have actually been in a position where the hospital only sent me a male LC to try to help me nurse my preemie twins while they were in the NICU. I am perfectly fine with male OBs, but there is something much more personal about a male LC looking you in the eye, handling your breasts, and talking to you, while you are spraying milk and engorged, that is just....not comfortable.

 

This point, I understand completely. I can see it being uncomfortable for women to have a male LC.

 

Personally, I find it hard to take LLL Dude seriously, because I don't think he cares at all about being an LLL leader. I think he wants to be on TV and in the news, and to become famous, and this was the idea he came up with, to try to get his 15 minutes of fame.

 

He'll probably end up with a reality show on TLC. :glare:

 

 

If he wanted a reality show, he could probably have had one by now. TLC is not all that selective! :D

 

I have an issue with the bolded. Men cannot breastfeed. It is not natural, nor is it normal, for this to take place. This person is NOT physically a man. There should be no instance where we need a male LLL leader to help other males breastfeed.

 

Women don't get to have penises. Men don't get to nurse babies. It's just not in the plan.

 

Yet some men (biologically born men) have breastfed. And induced lactation. This has been known for many, many years and is not a modern thing. It is rare, but it is not unheard of.

 

[/b]

 

And in defense of those of us who don't know... This is pretty confusing, not the mainstream, and therefore not part of the average person's reality. So of course we don't get it!

 

I am still trying to connect the dots on this story. See, I have a cousin who is a lesbian. She is very masculine in her features, the way she dresses, and conducts herself, her interests ... You name it. She is attracted to women (which is typically a male trait as well). I have always wondered about a chemical/hormonal imbalance, etc., in her because I am 13 years older than her and I have seen this in her since she was young.

 

She has not undergone any kind of official gender reassignment and I am not sure if she will as she has never mentioned it. She just sort of lives like a man would. If she did decide to undergo a transition it would not shock me. Then she would become a man who is attracted to females which I guess makes her no longer a lesbian.

 

The bolded describes my wife. She is a woman, but she has many masculine traits. She has no gender disphoria. She does not intend to become a man. She gave birth to and attempted to breastfeed our twins. She also loves sports, mows the lawn, wears mens clothes, and whatnot. And does cross-stitch. Male/female is not as rigid or binary as some seem to feel that it needs to be. Real people do not always fit our neat categories.

 

But in the case of the article, you have a genetic female who is attracted to males like the majority of females are, who has also done some partial gender reassignment in order to be gay? I have to be honest, I have never seen this before and it makes no sense to me.

 

If you are a female who wants to give birth, nurse, and you are naturally attracted to men, why would you become a male? People say all the time that homosexuals don't "choose" it and I can buy that. But in this case, the person is born a female, attracted to males, which makes her STRAIGHT and she then becomes a male but still is attracted to males which makes her-now-him GAY.

 

Isn't this choosing to be homosexual? I am NOT being snarky. I truely am confused by the whole thing. It would be like my cousin undergoing gender reassignment to become a man then giving up women and starting to date men. It makes my head spin.

.

 

Gender is not about who you have sex with. It's a simple as that. There are two issues going on, one is your gender, and the other is to whom you are attracted. There is some interaction between those two, of course, but if a person is a man, trapped in a woman's body, and attracted to men, just living as a straight woman is not going to solve the problem, because while you get to sleep with the right anatomy, you still do not get to be who you are.

[AdventureMoms]

I never said anything about WHY he/she conceived a child. I understand why.

 

I know that some people are born of one sex and in their minds think they are another and then go to drastic measures to physically become who they think they already are in their minds. I get that.

 

But no one is answering my question as to how this ties into this person's choice to be gay when so many say it isn't a choice. This person was NOT born a gay male. This person was born a straight female. This person chose to change their gender and become a gay male. The two are inextricably linked.

 

At any rate, I am leading this thread off on a rabbit trail and I didn't mean to. The whole thing is just so absolutely confusing. You can't really blame the general population for not understanding something that is as convoluted as this.

 

As for this person's choice to be a LLL leader, it doesn't matter to me. I bottle-fed my children. This person could possibly fill a niche in the LGBT community but I understand why a lot of women would not feel comfortable with it. We don't vilify women for wanting a female OB. I think this would fall in that same category.

 

 

.

 

Yes, I do understand why it is confusing! It can get very complex. But I think the issue is in the bolded. He was born a gay man, but he was born a gay man with female anatomy. Kind of a double whammy.

[Joanne]

I read the entire thread, including the posts that were terribly ignorant, belittling, and insulting to sexual minorities.

 

I am a huge advocate for sexual minority issues.

 

In *this* case, I would not support this individual becoming a LLL leader. It's my understanding that LLL is premised on the peer support model.

 

I guess I have a dichotomy in my thinking. I don't believe gender, sex, and sexuality are as rigid as some in western Judeo-Christian culture assert. OTOH, I do believe in womanly arts (and, presumably, manly arts). I believe that LLLeadership "should" be held by women.

 

But I admit that I am extreme; I don't believe in male ob/gyns.

[Free]

But no one is answering my question as to how this ties into this person's choice to be gay when so many say it isn't a choice. This person was NOT born a gay male. This person was born a straight female. This person chose to change their gender and become a gay male. The two are inextricably linked.

 

Actually, I did address this very point in my earlier post. You identify this person as a straight female based on biological sex. But gender is much more than that. If this person identified as a male, then he was a man trapped in a female body. And if he was attracted to men, then he was already a gay man trapped in a female body. He did not "choose" to be a gay male - that was what he was anyway. What he chose to do is get his biological gender to match his identified gender.

[LucyStoner]

Deleted

Edited June 25, 2022 by LucyStoner

[Heather in Neverland]

Actually, I did address this very point in my earlier post. You identify this person as a straight female based on biological sex. But gender is much more than that. If this person identified as a male, then he was a man trapped in a female body. And if he was attracted to men, then he was already a gay man trapped in a female body. He did not "choose" to be a gay male - that was what he was anyway. What he chose to do is get his biological gender to match his identified gender.

 

Ok, so then there are three things here...

 

Gender

Biological sex

Sexual orientation

 

What you are saying then is that gender and sexual orientation are tied together (you mentioned he was born a gay male) but biological sex is independent of the other two and not tied to either?

 

 

 

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.

[Soror]

Regardless of ones beliefs about sexual identity, sex change etc I dont think he would be a good support person for LLL. I think it should be women only and if he wants to identify as a man and change himself into a man he longer meets that requirement. I'm not familiar with the exclusive nursing requirement but if that is the case then evidently he doesn't qualify in that regard either.

[Free]

Ok, so then there are three things here...

 

Gender

Biological sex

Sexual orientation

 

What you are saying then is that gender and sexual orientation are tied together (you mentioned he was born a gay male) but biological sex is independent of the other two and not tied to either?

 

Not really. I am saying all three are independent. Both AdventureMoms and kijipt who have direct experience with these issues have said it much better:

 

 

gender is so much different than sexual orientation. My brother met his partner years after he transitioned. This was not something, as a poster suggested that was inspired by an attraction to a gay male. Before his transition he had dated boys. After he dated another trans person before he met his eventual partner. Like me, he was attracted to males. Unlike me, he did not relate to males as a female. I might be a rather tomboy, even occasionally butch sort of woman but I relate to my husband as a woman to a man. My gender matches my outward sex even though I will never be a girly girl sort. My brother's did not. Living as a woman was incompatible with who he was. He is not alone. I know more gay identified trans people than I know straight, just anecdotally.

 

 

See, I have a cousin who is a lesbian. She is very masculine in her features, the way she dresses, and conducts herself, her interests ... You name it. She is attracted to women (which is typically a male trait as well).

 

The bolded describes my wife. She is a woman, but she has many masculine traits. She has no gender disphoria. She does not intend to become a man. She gave birth to and attempted to breastfeed our twins. She also loves sports, mows the lawn, wears mens clothes, and whatnot. And does cross-stitch. Male/female is not as rigid or binary as some seem to feel that it needs to be. Real people do not always fit our neat categories.

 

Gender is not about who you have sex with. It's a simple as that. There are two issues going on, one is your gender, and the other is to whom you are attracted. There is some interaction between those two, of course, but if a person is a man, trapped in a woman's body, and attracted to men, just living as a straight woman is not going to solve the problem, because while you get to sleep with the right anatomy, you still do not get to be who you are.

[Heather in Neverland]

First, thanks for being kind in your remarks.

 

Second, yeah it is out of the mainstream. But so are a lot of things- quiverful, homeschooling, believing that women should cover their heads in public/church etc. All are matters of strong personal belief. When people post about such matters on this board, as far as I can tell a plurality of people who are outside that belief don't post about how people that do that are wrong, freaks , immoral or confused. I reckon there are a lot more trans people than people realize or are aware of. Maybe it is where I live or who I know in part because of my brother, but people who are trans are fairly common here. Not a ton but honestly I personally know more people who are trans than I know IRL that homeschool. If you haven't lived it and don't get what a big difference to the quality of a person's life it can make, I just would argue that your opinions as to the legitimacy of the condition and the treatment are at best armchair/seat of your pants commentary and at worst quite hurtful. The law in most states sees this as valid and will let people legally change their sex provided they undergo treatment and have a medical doctor's sign off that the condition is valid.

 

That said, I do agree that LLL is under no obligation to make this man a leader. A can become a LC elsewhere.

 

I did not intentionally make any hurtful comments and I am sorry if it came across that way. I am truely trying to get a grasp of what is going on in this case. Just when I think I have it figured out I hear a story like this one and i have to start over.

 

I understand that these people have an uphill battle in life. My cousin dropped out of school, battled a heroin addiction, and was arrested multiple times as she tried to come to terms with her situation. She has been through rehab and has been sober now for two years (praise God!) but she still has a lot of emotional issues that she deals with. I watched her grow up and it makes my heart break to see her go through it all.

 

For a large number of people, it is not part of their reality or their close community. We may understand homosexuality. We may even understand transgender. But this is another facet to both of those issues that many of us know nothing about.

 

You compared this to the homeschooling community... I put up with a lot of ignorant comments from people who know nothing of homeschooling and I have spent a lot of time patiently explaining it to people and "passing the bean dip"... Some eventually got it. Some never did.

 

Try to be patient with our ignorant comments. Some of us will eventually get it.

 

 

 

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[Free]

Try to be patient with our ignorant comments. Some of us will eventually get it .

Heather, what I have finally learned is that nothing in biology is neatly packaged into neat categories. Everything in life, it seems is on a continuum - including sexuality.

[LucyStoner]

I did not intentionally make any hurtful comments and I am sorry if it came across that way. I am truely trying to get a grasp of what is going on in this case.

 

No, you didn't come across that way at all. That is why I thanked you first off. I get just not knowing and being inquisitive about an unfamiliar to you topic. The "you" in my post was like the royal we. No one in particular but apparently a fair number of people here. My issue is not with people having questions, it is with uninformed people who feel it is their right to state their not fully informed opinion/perception as fact and glibly likening being trans to dressing up like a zoo animal. When it is your child/sibling/friend/lover you have to lay those opinions aside and look at the practical- what will keep my loved one safe, healthy and happy?

Edited August 25, 2012 by kijipt

[Heather in Neverland]

No, you didn't come across that way at all. That is why I thanked you first off. I get just not knowing and being inquisitive about an unfamiliar to you topic. The "you" in my post was like the royal we. No one in particular but apparently a fair number of people here. My issue is not with people having questions, it is with uninformed people who feel it is their right to state their not fully informed opinion/perception as fact and glibly likening being trans to dressing up like a zoo animal. When it is your child/sibling/friend/lover you have to lay those opinions aside and look at the practical- what will keep my loved one safe, healthy and happy?

 

You know, I am pretty conservative and I come from a pretty conservative family. For many years my cousin's lesbianism (is that a word?) was something we all knew about but no one spoke of it. Talk about a huge elephant in the room.

 

When we went back to the states this summer after being gone 3 years, I saw my cousin sober for the first time in a very long time. I also saw her mother, whom I am very close to, speaking of my cousin's girlfriend and trying so hard to understand and accept the whole situation.

 

I just wanted to hug her right then. She watched her daughter go through drug addiction and she is so grateful that her daughter is still alive. Even though her daughter's lifestyle is so opposite to what my aunt believes, my aunt bravely defends her daughter. I was very proud of her. If you had any idea of the hyper-conservative background we come from, you would be proud of her, too.

 

It is a hard topic.

 

 

.

[LucyStoner]

Heather, your aunt is like a lot of parents with gay or trans children- coming to defend their loved one despite the pressure of their culture. I am very proud of all parents and family of gay people and trans people who do that. I think it is amazing and I saw it in my parents and extended family. We are not politically conservative but I come from a very devout religious background and it was very much an issue. Note that my brother lived with me and not our parents while he was still a teen. It is a hard issue.

[Miss Marple]

it is with uninformed people who feel it is their right to state their not fully informed opinion/perception as fact and glibly likening being trans to dressing up like a zoo animal. When it is your child/sibling/friend/lover you have to lay those opinions aside and look at the practical- what will keep my loved one safe, healthy and happy?

 

Why is it that when someone disagrees with your (inclusive) belief they are "uninformed"? I have educated myself, am fully informed and have come to a different conclusion. But as Joanne put it, we are "ignorant"? I don't see that as very "inclusive" or "open minded". Maybe, just maybe, we are just as "educated" and just don't agree with you.

[AdventureMoms]

Why is it that when someone disagrees with your (inclusive) belief they are "uninformed"? I have educated myself, am fully informed and have come to a different conclusion. But as Joanne put it, we are "ignorant"? I don't see that as very "inclusive" or "open minded". Maybe, just maybe, we are just as "educated" and just don't agree with you.

 

Honestly? You're likening someone's serious, often life threatening identity issue with dressing up like a zoo animal. I am curious exactly what research and education led you to that conclusion. I can accept that people have different opinions and approaches, but I'm not very accepting of cruelty. You can have a different opinion without being mean.

[Miss Marple]

Honestly? You're likening someone's serious, often life threatening identity issue with dressing up like a zoo animal. I am curious exactly what research and education led you to that conclusion. I can accept that people have different opinions and approaches, but I'm not very accepting of cruelty. You can have a different opinion without being mean.

 

Well, there's no mean intent in anything I said. If you want to choose to think it mean, I'm truly sorry you're thinking that way. You have no idea who I am, what I've experienced, how I've come to my conclusions, or what I've been involved in. But I have no mean intent...take it as you wish.:001_smile: I'm choosing to believe that those calling us who have different conclusions "ignorant" and "uninformed" are not being mean, either. I'm just assuming it's the best way you know how to get your point across :001_smile:

Edited August 25, 2012 by CynthiaOK

[LucyStoner]

Well, there's no mean intent in anything I said. If you want to choose to think it mean, I'm truly sorry you're thinking that way. You have no idea who I am, what I've experienced, how I've come to my conclusions, or what I've been involved in. But I have no mean intent...take it as you wish.:001_smile:

 

Do you know one single person you compared to pretending to be a donkey? Do you have a clinical practice that brings you into contact with real people confronting this issue?

[LucyStoner]

Why is it that when someone disagrees with your (inclusive) belief they are "uninformed"? I have educated myself, am fully informed and have come to a different conclusion. But as Joanne put it, we are "ignorant"? I don't see that as very "inclusive" or "open minded". Maybe, just maybe, we are just as "educated" and just don't agree with you.

 

The statements you made make it crystal clear that you don't understand what someone faces when they confront this situation in their own lives. I never claimed, nor will claim, to feel any need to be open minded or inclusive towards cruelty. In short: you called a loved one of mine as confused as a person dressing up as a donkey. Left, right, up, down, diagonally: there is no way that is not unkind. If your sibling was like this, you really would not see this as you do now. Gender and sex and identity are much deeper issues than you made them out to be. Disagreeing with me does not require callous insult of a precious human life, a person who if you met you just might like.

Edited August 25, 2012 by kijipt

[Miss Marple]

Do you know one single person you compared to pretending to be a donkey? Do you have a clinical practice that brings you into contact with real people confronting this issue?

 

Actually, yes. I'm in the medical profession. I know a physician who transgendered. In addition, based on my profession, I do/have come in contact with people dealing with this issue - probably not to the degree someone in a very large metro area would, but I know people are surprised at how many people this issue affects.

 

Again, I am truly compassionate. I don't avoid them and believe they have have as much value as any other human being and should be treated accordingly. I do have issue with those who think that with further "education" or 'experience" I would completely agree with them. That is small minded and offensive.

Edited August 25, 2012 by CynthiaOK

[AdventureMoms]

Well, there's no mean intent in anything I said. If you want to choose to think it mean, I'm truly sorry you're thinking that way. You have no idea who I am, what I've experienced, how I've come to my conclusions, or what I've been involved in. But I have no mean intent...take it as you wish.:001_smile: I'm choosing to believe that those calling us who have different conclusions "ignorant" and "uninformed" are not being mean, either. I'm just assuming it's the best way you know how to get your point across :001_smile:

 

How, exactly, am I to interpret your comment likening transgendered people to "dressing up like a donkey"? Especially when, after several of us have pointed out how offensive and unkind it is, you have persisted to cheerfully deny any ill intent. Regardless of intent, it was an unkind and hurtful thing to say for those of us who care for a transgendered person (or people) in our lives.

[AdventureMoms]

Actually, yes. I'm in the medical profession. I know a physician who transgendered. In addition, based on my profession, I do/have come in contact with people dealing with this issue - probably not to the degree someone in a very large metro area would, but I know people are surprised at how many people this issue affects.

 

Again, I am truly compassionate. I don't avoid them and believe they have have as much value as any other human being and should be treated accordingly. I do have issue with those who think that with further "education" or 'experience" I would completely agree with them. That is small minded and offensive.

 

I don't think you need to agree with anyone. I just don't like you comparing them to dressing up like donkeys.

[Miss Marple]

How, exactly, am I to interpret your comment likening transgendered people to "dressing up like a donkey"? Especially when, after several of us have pointed out how offensive and unkind it is, you have persisted to cheerfully deny any ill intent. Regardless of intent, it was an unkind and hurtful thing to say for those of us who care for a transgendered person (or people) in our lives.

 

Perhaps I don't understand the offensiveness of a donkey. Around here (we live in the country), they are one of my favorite animals. We have had several and I love them. My question is this: Could I have made any reference that you would have been pleased with?

 

Absurdities are used all the time to illustrate points. We do it with our children - the first that comes to mind: He's a garbage disposal (indicating that he eats anything). Or: You're like a prickly pear (indicating someone who is over sensitive). Or: "You wouldn't jump off a cliff if your friends did it, would you?" (illustrating a lapse in judgment).

 

I have found animal illustrations to be quite effective in illustrating points in real life. Perhaps it's my lifestyle (country living). Perhaps you just don't get animal illustrations. No harm/meanness intended. :001_smile:

 

But we have digressed tremendously in this thread. So I'm signing off now - however I will be sure to read anything else you feel would be helpful for me.

[Miss Marple]

The statements you made make it crystal clear that you don't understand what someone faces when they confront this situation in their own lives. I never claimed, nor will claim, to feel any need to be open minded or inclusive towards cruelty. In short: you called a loved one of mine as confused as a person dressing up as a donkey. Left, right, up, down, diagonally: there is no way that is not unkind. If your sibling was like this, you really would not see this as you do now. Gender and sex and identity are much deeper issues than you made them out to be. Disagreeing with me does not require callous insult of a precious human life, a person who if you met you just might like.

 

I'm sorry you're offended.

[Dustybug]

Uh, how many ways does this guy want to have it? Born a woman and transgendered to male, but kept female reproductive organs, but says he's a homosexual and married a guy, and wants to be the leader of a lactation group?

 

My head is hurting.

 

I didn't read all the replies but :iagree: with this.

[LucyStoner]

Actually, yes. I'm in the medical profession. I know a physician who transgendered. In addition, based on my profession, I do/have come in contact with people dealing with this issue - probably not to the degree someone in a very large metro area would, but I know people are surprised at how many people this issue affects.

 

 

 

Do you tell him or her they are like a person who thinks they are a donkey? Tell them that sometime and see if they think it is not offensive. You are welcome to your opinion. I am welcome to see it at as hurtful and unkind.

[LucyStoner]

I'm sorry you're offended.

 

Being sorry requires honestly seeing why your words are hurtful. At least that's what I teach my kids. "I'm sorry that YOU'RE offended" is a classic cop out. Saying you like donkeys makes it downright comical. Claiming to respect people and have "compassion" for people you call as confused as people who think they are donkeys is absurd.

Edited August 25, 2012 by kijipt

[Murphy101]

It appears any analogy would be insulting then? Even, say, a candy bar? What if someone believed they were __(insert anything here)____ in a human body?

 

So let's remove the analogy.

 

It comes down to the basic concept that thinking we are something doesn't make it so.

 

If someone's perception defies reality, that person is seriously confused. That would make their life very difficult.

 

The only thing Cynthia and I are proposing is that we don't think it is healthy, ethical or right, for the medical establishment or society in general to perpetuate or validate a delusion.

[nmoira]

The only thing Cynthia and I are proposing is that we don't think it is healthy, ethical or right, for the medical establishment or society in general to perpetuate or validate a delusion.

Richard Dawkins would probably agree with your general assertion. You may differ with him (as I do you) as to what constitutes a delusion, however.

 

There is no therapy that makes a transgendered individual comfortable with the body they were born with. Period. Until you've seen the stark contrast firsthand, from mismatch to match, it's easy to disbelieve or discount the degree of anxiety one can feel by feeling trapped in the wrongly sexed body.

[Audrey]

It appears any analogy would be insulting then? Even, say, a candy bar? What if someone believed they were __(insert anything here)____ in a human body?

 

So let's remove the analogy.

 

It comes down to the basic concept that thinking we are something doesn't make it so.

 

If someone's perception defies reality, that person is seriously confused. That would make their life very difficult.

 

The only thing Cynthia and I are proposing is that we don't think it is healthy, ethical or right, for the medical establishment or society in general to perpetuate or validate a delusion.

 

 

Yes, you can think you are something else and it does not make it true. However, as I understand (and I admit I don't fully understand it all myself) these individuals don't merely think they are the other gender, they feel it emotionally and even physically as well. It isn't all a mental thought process. It goes far deeper than that.

[Slartibartfast]

I would see someone who identified themselves as "a man" as "a man," I don't think I would be comfortable with breastfeeding assistance from a man. I would be ok hanging out with them and being friends but IME breastfeeding counseling is very intimate...at least it was when I was working with some IBCLCs. I didn't go to LLL because I was already being assisted.

Edited August 25, 2012 by Sis

[Slartibartfast]

Being sorry requires honestly seeing why your words are hurtful. At least that's what I teach my kids. "I'm sorry that YOU'RE offended" is a classic cop out. Saying you like donkeys makes it downright comical. Claiming to respect people and have "compassion" for people you call as confused as people who think they are donkeys is absurd.

 

I agree, saying, "I am sorry you're offended" is not an apology. It is rude.

[Abeille]

Likening a trans person to a person dressing up as a donkey is callous and cruel, not funny or cute. What if YOUR child is trans? Believe me, it happens.

 

I've only read up to page 7 so far, but this. Thank you for saying what I was struggling to put into words.

[LucyStoner]

we don't think it is healthy, ethical or right, for the medical establishment or society in general to perpetuate or validate a delusion.

 

Honest question. Given the choice between being (or seeing a loved one be) intensely depressed, self loathing and engaging in dangerous behavior or having sucide thoughts that go into planning and attempting to kill oneself OR being happy, healthy and living, what do you pick? There is no one that I have ever met or come across that says they used to feel trans but are no longer because now they are hunky dory with their outward sex after all. My brother, his kids, his partner and my entire family are very happy to have him and not the alternative. It's not for lack of trying to be happy as a girl or seeking help for depression. Just to be very clear, a lifetime of misery and several years of deep sucidal depression was healed. If you know of another viable treatment that fits your worldview, I would love to hear about it. Health and a life worth living supecedes others' declarations of what is right, natural and "normal."

[AdventureMoms]

Yes, you can think you are something else and it does not make it true. However, as I understand (and I admit I don't fully understand it all myself) these individuals don't merely think they are the other gender, they feel it emotionally and even physically as well. It isn't all a mental thought process. It goes far deeper than that.

 

Yeah, that's pretty much it. There have been studies where brain scans show that transgendered people's brains are organized differently (or rather, similarly to the gender they exhibit traits of, but differently from their sex at birth). In some cases DNA tests show that some transgendered people to be some form of intersex even if they do not have obviously intersexed anatomy. It's not just like a woman (previously content as a woman) wakes up one day and say "gee I'd rather be a man", there are real differences, often from as far back as the person can remember. In fact from personal experience, I've never met a transgendered person who EVER felt comfortable - in their whole lives - with their birth sex. Imagine spending your whole life feeling a profound sense of wrongness about the gender you are supposed to be.

[8circles]

It appears any analogy would be insulting then? Even, say, a candy bar? What if someone believed they were __(insert anything here)____ in a human body?

 

So let's remove the analogy.

 

It comes down to the basic concept that thinking we are something doesn't make it so.

 

If someone's perception defies reality, that person is seriously confused. That would make their life very difficult.

 

The only thing Cynthia and I are proposing is that we don't think it is healthy, ethical or right, for the medical establishment or society in general to perpetuate or validate a delusion.

 

You're right. One can think they are kind, compassionate, and understanding. Doesn't make it true.