It's not always the parents fault

[AlmiraGulch]

I think this is a dangerous thought to be truthful. What you are saying here is they have "no control" I have seen this used as a defense on court shows. No. It is just not right it is called personal responsibility and stop making exuses for your bad (not you) choices and behaviors.

It isn't that they have "no control" but "group think" is a real, studied, documented thing. Doesn't make a person any less responsible, but it has been witnessed and documented many, many times and does exist.

I as a child was never allowed these types of exuses and neither are my kids. I agree with Denise it can't be all the parents fault but this was a group of kids I find it hard to believe they all come from the greatest home esoecially as public school kids. This seems odd to me. Just because kids are in public school does not mean, by any stretch of the imagination that they have bad parents or come from a troubled environment. Any of them. I'd be interested to know what you're basing that judgement on. And again...it isn't about making excuses, but perhaps providing an alternative explanation to "they are mentally ill" or "they have bad parents".

 

I do know that not all ps kids have bad homes I am not saying that but from my expierence the majority of ill behaved kids don't come from the greatest places. There also comes a point again when will people as a society stop making crap exuses for behavior and just say hey you were bad your being punished. Yes, this. I completely agree. People should be held personally accountable for their own bad behavior.

 

Put my daughter in a group and I can guarantee with my life she will not follow anything like this. My daughter would have been one on the bus screaming STFU I can bet my life on it. My two boys have some issues and behavior problems too but I can't see them doing this either. No one ever wants to believe their kids will act like this. And most kids won't. But you really never know. Everyone also says their kids won't go with strangers, but I watched an experiment on Dateline a few weeks ago that showed me that MOST of the kids will, given the right circumstances. The point being....we just don't know what our kids will do given the perfect storm of circumstances, no matter how much we would like to believe we do know, every time.

 

Giving the exuse they were following Johhny from down the road is a dangerous slippery sloap taking away personal responsibility. It is becoming the mom who blames her kids bad grades on teachers It is also alot of what is wrong in this society in general. Again, I don't think anyone is making an excuse, but rather trying to provide an explanation. Doesn't make them any less culpable, but sometimes when we're searching for a reason why someone who you would not suspect would do something does that very thing, you try to find what set of circumstances could have existed to cause him or her to act in what could be a very uncharacteristic way

 

 

And even after all of that....it COULD be that these are just "bad" kids. It COULD be that they have crap parents, or mental illness, or any number of things. I just think that it's much more likely that, as a group, they were sucked into a pack mentality and behaved in a horrible way. No excuses....just explanation.

 

ETA: Sorry about all the html....I give up.....

Edited June 22, 2012 by QValencia
Looks bad!

[clarkacademy]

And even after all of that....it COULD be that these are just "bad" kids. It COULD be that they have crap parents, or mental illness, or any number of things. I just think that it's much more likely that, as a group, they were sucked into a pack mentality and behaved in a horrible way. No excuses....just explanation.

 

ETA: Sorry about all the html....I give up.....

 

It just seems too often people use exuse to exuse the behavior. All the time people are not held accountable. Back in the day it didn't matter who what why or when all that mattered is so and so did such and such and they paid for it. End of story. It is almost as if the victims are on trial in America. I have seen other people post that this woman was not a good person for the job? It didn't matter she is an adult and children respevct their elders plain and simple.

 

As for my daughter yes I do know she would never follow. Maybe I lucked out with her I don't know. Maybe it is her and nothing at all that I did. She has always stood up for the underdog so to speak. She has been that way since she was very young always standing up for people. Always friending the one people picked on.

[MrsBasil]

It just seems too often people use exuse to exuse the behavior. All the time people are not held accountable. Back in the day it didn't matter who what why or when all that mattered is so and so did such and such and they paid for it. End of story. It is almost as if the victims are on trial in America. I have seen other people post that this woman was not a good person for the job? It didn't matter she is an adult and children respevct their elders plain and simple.

 

As for my daughter yes I do know she would never follow. Maybe I lucked out with her I don't know. Maybe it is her and nothing at all that I did. She has always stood up for the underdog so to speak. She has been that way since she was very young always standing up for people. Always friending the one people picked on.

 

I don't think many people are excusing the behavior, they are just acknowledging that the kids may not be mentally ill or be un-parented.

 

They may have been vicious little beasts because they were together, egging each other on, had gotten away with it before, and drunk on the power they had in that situation.

 

Doesn't mean they shouldn't be punished severely and held responsible. I think they do need that, plus a good shunning. I just can't agree that it is always something the parents did wrong.

[Denisemomof4]

I worked in a special school for behaviorally disordered (read: mentally ill) children. All of our kids were removed from public schools. Their districts paid their tuition. They all had IEPs. There was a teacher and an aide in each class and never more than 12 kids in one room. We had counselors on site. some Ida had 1:1 aides.

 

I worked their for 3 years. Probably half of the kids that were there when I started were still there when I left. For most of them, I had little hope they would "get better". Why? For the most part because those kids had no one a home who would/could be responsible. Some parents were worn out. Some had their own mental illnesses to manage. Some seemed not to care, but I don't

profess to know their issues.

 

What I know: some really awful kids come from loving homes, but most of the ones I've met have serious home issues. Sadly, those kids with poor home environments are least likely gain much from whatever the schools do. The schools can't do everything.

 

Part one.

 

 

I started to reply to this last night but wanted to think through my thoughts first.

 

While I can certainly appreciate your expertise in this field, I have to say that there is simply NO WAY you can really know the situation in the home of any one child unless you are personally involved with every member of the family. Sociopathic kids and RAD kids come to mind. They terrorize their families and can schmooze even the best of the professionals out there.

 

I know what I speak of. Unfortunately, I have too much experience here; a lot of which I will never speak of publicly.

 

Baear with me. The first situation isn't school related.

 

First of all, my brother, diagnosed with a mental illness, was able to fool all the professionals at many drug treatment centers as a teen and young adult. He could pull the wool over one's eyes effortlessly. When my father became his.... I forget, is it a legal guardian? Anyway, when my brother was in his 30's and had years of short term employment, arrests (all alcohol and drug related) etc. And my dad noticed the pattern of my brother going on and off his medication, my father went to court to become legally responsible for my brother. The deal was, therapy and staying on meds or my dad would have him involuntarily committed to the psyche ward. Things were quiet for a number of years but my brother always treated my parents harshly. He lived at home until he was forty and my mother once had a day of peace. The stress was so much on them, their health deteriorated, and they died at ages 67 and 68 even though all grandparents lived into their 80's.

 

When my dad died, my brother went off the deep end. I said my good bye to my dad in the hospital as he took his final breaths, and had no time to grieve. I had to run to the police dept. To get the process going to have my brother involuntarily committed. My brother had made death threats against the facility where my parents were living and he blamed them for my dad's death. My brother freaked out in the hospital and had to be escorted out by security.

 

When i called his PSYCHIATRIST who had seen him for over TEN YEARS, he was absolutely shocked at the turn of events in my brother. This man saw my brother regularly and never thought he would be capable of what had happened. My sister and I were afraid for our own lives. My dad's lawyers called us many times to state they were worried he would come after us because of what he said to them when he called them. There was no help for anyone. The doctor who treated him for well over a decade, and THOUGHT he knew him well, never really knew him at all. In the closing of our conversation with him he told me that he could never help anyone who wasn't honest with him.

 

And that is where the real problem lies.

 

Yes, there are kids out ther who have horrific lives at home. But I am coming from the viewpoint of the families like mine and my friends who have these kids who can fool even the best of professionals, be it in school, medical/mental health, and even the law. These kids and/or adult children destroy families. If that weren't eneough, the parents are judged and blamed, which empowers the sick/disturbed child and also pours more salt into the parent's wounds.

 

I know someone personally and intimately who's very large son has conduct disorder. The children in the home are afraid of him. We all know those with CD are diagnosed as a sociopath if they are 18 or older. This kid could NOT stand any rules in the home. None. Not even the simplest. When he was grounded for a month after being suspended for the second time in two weeks, he told his parents, "I'll get back at you for this," and then proceeded to walk five miles in a snowstorm to talk to police to file a grudge report with CPS. It was a terrifying time for the parents and the children left in the home. The process took months. After the interview of the kids remaining in the home, it was made immediately known to the parents that they (CPS) had no concerns at all. They breathed a huge sigh of relief. The son has never once had remorse for what he did.

 

He most definitely has some school personnel fooled. He was allowed to move in with his best friend and voiced his sob story so many times to the shool. When he was caught bringing a knife to school, and a pretty scary one at that, the fooled school personnel fell for his sob act. Sociopaths are very charming and believing. The parents were told they may suspend him for a year. After they spoke to the kid he got a three day suspension. I personally know people who's kids are in the same school. One kid got a far more serious consequence for the exact same thing, bringing a knife into school.

 

There was an obvious lack of communication in the school as some personnel never believed a word out of my friend's kid's mouth. (the first kid mentioned above) The Dean of Students, however, helped to fill out papers for an extensive psyciatric evaluation and stated right there that this is a kid who will retalliate against anyone who upsets him. The kid did well with teachers who never upset him. Those who upset him? He made their lives pretty miserable.

[Denisemomof4]

Part two

 

I also have a close friend who's neighbor's daughter has RAD. The RAD girl had always been problematic. It destroyed one marriage and when the mom remarried, she had more kids. When the RAD became a teen, she was much more defiant. She did have problems at school, too, but I don't know the extent of them. She also had run ins with the law. When she wanted to retalliate against her parents, she cried rape to school personnel, who in turn had to call CPS. Due to the seriousness of the call, all kids had to be removed from the home. After an extensive investigation they found no consistencies in the dd's story and had determined that she had lies. The younger kids and parents are forever scarred. Luckily the RAD kid is over 18 now so they no longer are forced to live in terror with hrr.

 

A friend of mine successfully raised three biological children. She has a compassionate heart and is always wanting to help/save children and animals in need. She became a foster mom. She had fostered 20 kids, adopting four of them, ALL with issues. Her oldest adopted is in her 20's, and will never be able to live on her own. She was a shaken baby. The other two kids have severe behavioral problems and one has a few diagnoses, both medical and mental, Oh, and one is perfectly fine. She did raise one foster kid all his life and finally had to kick him out at the age of 20. She never adopted him because his issues were so severe and she needed help from the state. It is known that once you adopt, you are on your own. She was in the system long enough to know that slthough she wanted to adopt this child, she absolutely needed the services for him. At various points through out the years he absolutely had school personnel, CPS, his social workers AND the police absolutely fooled. She has had numerous CPS investigations where her other kids in need were put at risk of losing their loving family. They had to remortgage their home to pay for all their legal fees so they 1) didn't have a criminal record and 2) could keep their family safe. To see what this woman has gone through by people who "knew what was going on in the home" is horrific. She and her husband have serious heakth issues. I hope they do not end up as my parents did. And the son who terrorized them so long, attacking those in the home physically AND destroying their home (and they have no money to fix it. She is embarrassed and has let nobody beyond family in the house for years) he is now remorseful. He once blamed ALL his problems on his parents who raised him. He reconnected with his birth family, moved in with them, then totally cut himself off from the family who loved him and raised him. It lasted a coup,e of months. He now has moved back to his hometown, is highly remorseful for the years of torments and lies, and is trying to be a good son to his loving parents -the parents eho were blamed by school personnel AND the law for all this kid's problems. Also, a new police chief came into town a few years back and finally saw the truth in this family. He is a supporter of the parents now.

 

I could share so many more stories like this.

 

Mentally ill kids, and even just disturbed and manipulative kids, fool people all the time. I belong to many adoption support groups and there is a widely known, common theme. The RAD child superficially charms everyone, the parents are blamed for all the issues. I have come to learn that this theme goes way beyond RAD.

 

I want to say in closing that my brother is doing well now. He has me in charge of his finances (representative payee) and my parents bought him a condo before they got real sick. His disability pays for his bills. He is properly medicated and is doing fine. I wish my father could see this. My father's biggest mistake was that he loved my brother too much to see him hurting, so he bailed him out of every situation he ever cou,d. My brother KNOWS he will not get that from me so now he had no choice to be responsible. He is doing well.

[Denisemomof4]

I have only read about 4 pages of responses, so this may have been mentioned already, but I think it's possible that these kids are neither mentally ill, nor have bad parents, nor are just horrible kids all-around that need to be locked away.

 

Sometimes kids, even generally "good" kids, do really awful, horrible things. Because they're kids, and their frontal cortex is not fully developed. One starts it, then the other adds on, then it's almost a game to see how far they can go. They stop thinking of the person as a person and instead see the whole situation as a game that they can't stop or they won't be "cool" anymore. Not that they're angels....far from it. People who behave the way these kids did need to be punished. But really, it doesn't mean they're mentally ill or that they have bad parents, necessarily.

 

Case in point.....I clearly remember being in 1st grade and, for some reason, deciding it would be a good idea with my friend CJ to give another kid, one who was really our friend, a ridiculously hard time. We were mean. We called him names. We physically cornered him against a wall and were chanting at him and saying really hurtful things to him. We got caught and were put in our places immediately by a teacher. I have never felt so low in all of my life. It affected me and still does to this day. I was NOT a bad kid. I was the teacher's pet, honor student, gifted, skipped-a-grade, well-behaved, involved parents, non-manipulative, never in trouble kid, who for some reason decided to go along with the crowd and do something really out of character for me that one day. And I was only in 1st grade.

 

Can't anyone entertain the idea that maybe these kids just did a really stupid, awful thing?

 

My personal opinion is the pack mentality is what came i to p,ay. I have seen this in kids, even GOOD kids, and in animals. What each child did they likely wouldn't have done it if they were alone with that poor woman.

 

It is also HIGHLY unlikely that every parent of every child was a bad one. It is also just as likely that there was at least one bad parent, but we will never know the truth with that.

[Ohdanigirl]

I'd appreciate it if you could name some school districts that use this procedure so I can pass this info on to the administrators here.We'd like to do some cost cutting. Mentally ill children are classified here and get their own bus with their own aide. Some of the routes are $100K each child for the regular school year.

 

When I attended Mission Bay High School in San Diego City schools for a couple of years their was one girl on our bus named Raquel. She was so sweet, and said hi to everyone when she got on the bus. I am not sure what her specific illness was, but I remember her brother saying she was mentally like a small child.

Aside form probably saving money, it was an enriching experience for all of us.

 

Danielle

[OH_Homeschooler]

But PEER PRESSURE makes the most sense.

 

 

I agree with this. So often we don't realize how out of control our behavior is in a particular situation until we take a step back and realize how awful we've been. (Tons of research to support the power of the situation). I don't think it's necessarily that the kids are bad or the parents are bad, it's just possible they got caught up in a truly horrible situation and lost themselves.

 

And the bus bullies have come out and apologized, saying they don't know how they got to that point.

 

And their parents have said they didn't raise their kids to be like that.

 

That video is horribly, terribly painful to watch and the kids definitely need to face major consequences. But I don't think this one ugly situation is really who they are and I don't think their parents are necessarily bad parents.

[Bluegoat]

It just seems too often people use exuse to exuse the behavior. All the time people are not held accountable. Back in the day it didn't matter who what why or when all that mattered is so and so did such and such and they paid for it. End of story. It is almost as if the victims are on trial in America. I have seen other people post that this woman was not a good person for the job? It didn't matter she is an adult and children respevct their elders plain and simple.

 

As for my daughter yes I do know she would never follow. Maybe I lucked out with her I don't know. Maybe it is her and nothing at all that I did. She has always stood up for the underdog so to speak. She has been that way since she was very young always standing up for people. Always friending the one people picked on.

 

It's not a matter of excusing or not excusing. It is pretty well documented that in adults group culture can actually begin to change people's perception of right and wrong without them realizing it, especially if they are somewhat isolated from outside society. It's part of our natural adaptability.

 

Life for many kids these days almost seems to be perfectly arranged to create this kind of problem. A was pointed out in the other thread, a lot of kids spend the vast majority of their awake time in groups of other kids from the time they are infants. They may be in care from before school starts until dinner, in activities and doing homework all evening and weekend, and all the family business needs to get done in those times as well. The moral boundaries they deal with on a day to day basis aren't those of their family, but of their peer group. And add to this that many of them spend significant amounts of home time watching shows like Survivor or playing video games - not activities that reinforce moral lines.

 

Even for those kids whose homes to give them a strong basis for right behavior, they get used to seeing other things in their school life - it no longer shocks them and that is an important part of how people respond to horrific things.

 

So in the end you have a bus full of kids, most who have nice families but are basically peer bonded. You have a few kids who are for one reason or another - teen brains, bad parenting, mental illness, abuse - out of control who are ringleaders. A few kids might know it is wrong but are used to the whole things, don't see how they can stop it, and are quite possibly afraid of the situation. There is absolutely no authority present which can impose order.

 

We should expect this sort of thing to happen given those sorts of parameters.

 

Thinking about this is important not because it allows us to make excuses for kids, but because it allows us to see how we have gone really wrong in the kinds of situations we have created for them.

[TranquilMind]

 

:grouphug: No way. I am sure she has some genetic tenacity and stubbornness but her failings are her choices.

 

 

 

 

That's an understatement. She makes me look like a cream puff. And you know me a little.

[beachrose]

I read a study recently that the kids replied that the idea for bullying came from their parents making fun of other people. I think there are a vast amount of people who do that in their homes. I'm not blaming anyone here life is rarely black and white ,it's just that was an eye opener for me. Thankfully so far my kids have been the ones to stand up to bullying but I pretty sure I've been guilty of the fun a time or two it's really made me aware to watch what I think and then say. I'm a Christian so I believe we are all made in the image of God therefore no matter how awful a person is there is something in there worthy of praise and I try to think on that. Do I always succeed yeah right I wish, but it's what I push towards and I want to model that for my kids so the first battle is in my thoughts.

[myfunnybunch]

I think this is a dangerous thought to be truthful. What you are saying here is they have "no control" I have seen this used as a defense on court shows. No. It is just not right it is called personal responsibility and stop making exuses for your bad (not you) choices and behaviors.

 

I as a child was never allowed these types of exuses and neither are my kids.

 

And these children were allowed.

 

"Group think" isn't an excuse, it's an explanation. I don't think anyone is saying the poor little darlings couldn't help themselves. The answer to the problem is adults who are willing to step in and hold the kids accountable instead of excusing them or feeling powerless to stop the behavior.

 

Cat

[Denisemomof4]

The first line of moral culpability lies with the kids. I know that is radical to say nowadays, but I think our therapeutic culture of tracing everyone's sins back to their parents or to some trauma or bullying is actually part of the problem --it distances the perpetrator from his or her act. That is not at all to say that parenting--good and bad--doesn't highly influence kids. But ultimately people make their own choices. Some people have less range of choice than others--those with mental illness, those with lower IQs, victims of certain kinds of trauma, and yes, those with bad parents. However, you can choose a child in any of those categories and not all would choose __<insert bad behavior of choice>______.

 

In a situation in which you have a pack of kids, then group social norms have strong influence and it may be the group mentality, not the parenting at all, which is where fuel is added to the fire.

 

I'm not saying that kid or adult who commits a wrongful act shouldn't look into things inside that might be driving that act, but the fact remains that they committed the act.

 

One of the ways in which I see this "search for the victimization or bad parenting that led to this poor behavior" come out most dangerously when someone has shot people at their school and the first reaction is for the press to pull up stories of them being bullied. That then becomes a kind of justification in people's minds for what has happened and revenge fantasies suddenly become something that might be made into reality. Yes, bullying is bad and the victims should be helped. But when a bully victim becomes a bully him/herself, then that bullying is just as wrong. Plenty of victims of bullying choose other courses of action.

 

I don't think I'm being totally articulate here, but what I'm trying to say is hold the perps responsible. I don't mean that in a punitive way, but in a moral sense. I did it; I'm responsible. Other people may have responsibility to the kid, but if they fail the kid, the kid still has to control what s/he can control. No passing the buck. I am a huge bleeding heart, but I've seen hardcore kids turn around when they accept that truth and not before.

 

This is excellent. I always appreciate your words of wisdom.

 

I think kids these days all too often blame their bad choices on the bad parenting they say they had. I have seen this countless times. They will stop at nothing to blame someone else because they will NOT accept personal responsibility for even their own actions. Once the chikd has matured enough to see what a foll they were, that they can see their bad choices were entirely their fault, that is where real growth begins. Sometimes it never happens.

 

I also see a new trend in school, one I wasn't prepared for when I put my boys in school. It is the IN thing, or the COOL thing, to be trashing your family to your friends. When my oldest son came home with some wild stories, some of them broke my heart. Others had me :001_huh: i told him I was certain what was said was NOT true. More times than not he ended up finding out I was right. Especially with girls, they loved to lay it on thick so they could gain his compassion and sympathies. But it happens with both girls and boys.

[Denisemomof4]

I agree Denise. I wouldn't want my parenting examined... I'm sure we've all been less than stellar sometimes. I also wouldn't think my child would do anything horrible. They're just not like that... BUT, sometimes things happen. I'm hoping that they act respectfully, even when around others who don't. That's having honor, right? But, I don't think the lady needs $500,000 to deal with it.

 

I am surprised by the contributions. I also find it heartwarming. I was especially hurt for her when I heard she had a kid who committed suicice, and one of the kids told her she was so ugly that ALL her kids should commit suicide. How awful.

 

And don't get me wrong. There is not one single parent on the face of this earth who has not made parental mistakes.

 

There is also the fact that really good kids can and do come out of really crappy homes, just like really crappy kids can and do come out of really good homes. Ther is no one rule, but all too often the first defense is to blame the parents.

 

Life is all about the choices we make and the consequences to our choices.

[Denisemomof4]

I think this is a dangerous thought to be truthful. What you are saying here is they have "no control" I have seen this used as a defense on court shows. No. It is just not right it is called personal responsibility and stop making exuses for your bad (not you) choices and behaviors.

 

I as a child was never allowed these types of exuses and neither are my kids. I agree with Denise it can't be all the parents fault but this was a group of kids I find it hard to believe they all come from the greatest home esoecially as public school kids.

 

I do know that not all ps kids have bad homes I am not saying that but from my expierence the majority of ill behaved kids don't come from the greatest places. There also comes a point again when will people as a society stop making crap exuses for behavior and just say hey you were bad your being punished.

 

Put my daughter in a group and I can guarantee with my life she will not follow anything like this. My daughter would have been one on the bus screaming STFU I can bet my life on it. My two boys have some issues and behavior problems too but I can't see them doing this either.

 

Giving the exuse they were following Johhny from down the road is a dangerous slippery sloap taking away personal responsibility. It is becoming the mom who blames her kids bad grades on teachers It is also alot of what is wrong in this society in general.

 

I agree with this mostly, but lets not forget the lengths a child will go to to gain popularity, to be the cool kid, etc. That is what changed my younger son when he got into ps. It one of the main reasons my girls will NEVER step foot in ANY school, one because I fear she'd do the same, the other because I don't want her to be exposed to it. Well I obviously want neither to be exposed to it

[LMA]

I agree Denise. I wouldn't want my parenting examined... I'm sure we've all been less than stellar sometimes. I also wouldn't think my child would do anything horrible. They're just not like that... BUT, sometimes things happen. I'm hoping that they act respectfully, even when around others who don't. That's having honor, right? But, I don't think the lady needs $500,000 to deal with it.

 

The bus monitor did not ask for the money. A third party started it.

[Denisemomof4]

It just seems too often people use exuse to exuse the behavior. All the time people are not held accountable. Back in the day it didn't matter who what why or when all that mattered is so and so did such and such and they paid for it. End of story. It is almost as if the victims are on trial in America. I have seen other people post that this woman was not a good person for the job? It didn't matter she is an adult and children respevct their elders plain and simple.

 

 

I absolutely agree with you here 100%. But I also want to point out something else. It is entirely FRUSTRATING when professionals and other adults in ANY setting, school definitely being one, let a child's stupid excuses excuse their bad behavior. This is not related to my RAD. I am sick and tired of telling people not to do that. Adults and professionals are just too lenient these days. I am sick and tired of troubled kids schmoozing their way through life, taking advantage of people, manipulating them, and not being held accountable. It has happened in my family and many of my friend's families. I wish adults would stop being ok with things that simply are NOT OK!!!! It is so entirely frustrating for parents, not just me, who are really trying to get their kids to stop doing XYZ.

[Denisemomof4]

It's not a matter of excusing or not excusing. It is pretty well documented that in adults group culture can actually begin to change people's perception of right and wrong without them realizing it, especially if they are somewhat isolated from outside society. It's part of our natural adaptability.

 

Life for many kids these days almost seems to be perfectly arranged to create this kind of problem. A was pointed out in the other thread, a lot of kids spend the vast majority of their awake time in groups of other kids from the time they are infants. They may be in care from before school starts until dinner, in activities and doing homework all evening and weekend, and all the family business needs to get done in those times as well. The moral boundaries they deal with on a day to day basis aren't those of their family, but of their peer group. And add to this that many of them spend significant amounts of home time watching shows like Survivor or playing video games - not activities that reinforce moral lines.

 

Even for those kids whose homes to give them a strong basis for right behavior, they get used to seeing other things in their school life - it no longer shocks them and that is an important part of how people respond to horrific things.

 

So in the end you have a bus full of kids, most who have nice families but are basically peer bonded. You have a few kids who are for one reason or another - teen brains, bad parenting, mental illness, abuse - out of control who are ringleaders. A few kids might know it is wrong but are used to the whole things, don't see how they can stop it, and are quite possibly afraid of the situation. There is absolutely no authority present which can impose order.

 

We should expect this sort of thing to happen given those sorts of parameters.

 

Thinking about this is important not because it allows us to make excuses for kids, but because it allows us to see how we have gone really wrong in the kinds of situations we have created for them.

 

This is EXCELLENT. I literally have chills!!!

[Leav97]

Am I the only one that finds it concerning that the bus monitor is completely out of control? That she her self is bullied and didn't report the problems on the bus. How is she protecting the kids on the bus when she can't protect herself and doesn't report problems?

 

Disclaimer: I haven't watched the video.

[swellmomma]

I absolutely agree with you here 100%. But I also want to point out something else. It is entirely FRUSTRATING when professionals and other adults in ANY setting, school definitely being one, let a child's stupid excuses excuse their bad behavior. This is not related to my RAD. I am sick and tired of telling people not to do that. Adults and professionals are just too lenient these days. I am sick and tired of troubled kids schmoozing their way through life, taking advantage of people, manipulating them, and not being held accountable. It has happened in my family and many of my friend's families. I wish adults would stop being ok with things that simply are NOT OK!!!! It is so entirely frustrating for parents, not just me, who are really trying to get their kids to stop doing XYZ.

 

This is what I was trying to get across in my first post, though I did a poor job of it. Using issues as an excuse, primarily my experience has been with parents claiming "little johnny couldn't help it" while trying to get johnny off the hook yet again. Particularily when it comes to conduct disorder as that is where my experience lies the behaviours of the child are a CHOICE, with RAD, or mental illness or ADHD etc the child can't help it and needs extra supports, but with ODD/CD it is a choice they make to respond how they do. That is where I was coming from. If you see your child making those choices and do not take the bull by the horns to address it and prevent it from happening again to the best of your ability (meaning we can't stop it all the time but we can do our best from allowing our kids to harm others) than that is the fault I find with parents.

 

I don't blame them for the kid having issues, I blame them for their response to them does that make sense?

[thefragile7393]

No it isn't always the parents-there are amazing involved parents who do their best and their kid has other ideas, has friends who influence them, etc. Unfortunately in my line of work that is not what I see the majority of the time. I see kids who were exposed to addictive substances in utero, who have dysfunctional homes, kids who are physically punished constantly for everything-and parents who don't want to step up to the plate because the problem in their mind is that it's the kid, not the parent. I love and appreciate the parents who step up to the plate and are their child's advocate and do anything they can do keep life smooth for their child. Unfortunately, as I said, they are in the minority. I'm not buying that a diganosis made those kids be cruel like that when it is obvious they knew what they were doing. Like it or not, many kids are like this just because-they see it in their lives through family. Sure there could be an underlying issue that meds and/or therapy could help, but none of that changes a dysfunctional life that only the parent can change.

[thefragile7393]

Am I the only one that finds it concerning that the bus monitor is completely out of control? That she her self is bullied and didn't report the problems on the bus. How is she protecting the kids on the bus when she can't protect herself and doesn't report problems?

 

Disclaimer: I haven't watched the video.

Bus monitors have little power...they can't do anything but TELL someone to knock it off and that isn't going to scare kids who have no respect for authority in the first place. They aren't going to care. The ones that fear consequences of some kind would listen, but many kids don't have that. I would recommend watching the video as well first.

[Denisemomof4]

Am I the only one that finds it concerning that the bus monitor is completely out of control? That she her self is bullied and didn't report the problems on the bus. How is she protecting the kids on the bus when she can't protect herself and doesn't report problems?

 

Disclaimer: I haven't watched the video.

 

This is so frustrating to me! I think she is probably a kind hearted woman who doesn't want to cause problems. I also think everyone involved in this situation is so stunned by the attention that they quite don't know what to do.

 

If my kid was involved, I would be disappointed that she was being so lenient. And it would be far from the first time I witnessed this behavior in an adult.

[Denisemomof4]

This is what I was trying to get across in my first post, though I did a poor job of it. Using issues as an excuse, primarily my experience has been with parents claiming "little johnny couldn't help it" while trying to get johnny off the hook yet again. Particularily when it comes to conduct disorder as that is where my experience lies the behaviours of the child are a CHOICE, with RAD, or mental illness or ADHD etc the child can't help it and needs extra supports, but with ODD/CD it is a choice they make to respond how they do. That is where I was coming from. If you see your child making those choices and do not take the bull by the horns to address it and prevent it from happening again to the best of your ability (meaning we can't stop it all the time but we can do our best from allowing our kids to harm others) than that is the fault I find with parents.

 

I don't blame them for the kid having issues, I blame them for their response to them does that make sense?

 

So that is NOT what I got out of your first response. Yes, I agree with you ALMOST 100% ;):001_smile: your expertise is in CD. Mine is in RAD. Of course you're not going to study RAD. You have enough on your over flowing pkate.

 

RAD kid's behaviors ARE a choice. When they acout out badly, can switch it off and on as they pkease, choose to bully the parent and nobody else, that is all their CHOICE.

 

I have heard of many RAD's erroneously being diagnosed with ODD and CD then later sociopath. RAD kids can even be diagnosed with Aspergers and bipolar. It isn't until an experienced RAD therapist is found that the real diasnosis is given. Still, they all have similarities.

 

And I agree that the child has to be held accountable. As your son gets older, bigger and stronger, it is going to get more and more difficult for you to do that but I know you already know that. The one kid I spoke of who wasn't formally adopted had CD.

[Denisemomof4]

No it isn't always the parents-there are amazing involved parents who do their best and their kid has other ideas, has friends who influence them, etc. Unfortunately in my line of work that is not what I see the majority of the time. I see kids who were exposed to addictive substances in utero, who have dysfunctional homes, kids who are physically punished constantly for everything-and parents who don't want to step up to the plate because the problem in their mind is that it's the kid, not the parent. I love and appreciate the parents who step up to the plate and are their child's advocate and do anything they can do keep life smooth for their child. Unfortunately, as I said, they are in the minority. I'm not buying that a diganosis made those kids be cruel like that when it is obvious they knew what they were doing. Like it or not, many kids are like this just because-they see it in their lives through family. Sure there could be an underlying issue that meds and/or therapy could help, but none of that changes a dysfunctional life that only the parent can change.

 

And again, there ARE kids that can't be helped by the parents no matter how hard they try.

 

Then there are the foster and adoptive families who adopt those damaged kids and do all they can do to help them. There's only so much one can do to help exposed kids. But I don't want this thread to go there....... Thre are many, many that already have.

 

I am not saying that thre are no kids in horrible, dysfunctional families. I AM saying that all too often that is the first assumption in these circumstances. It's wrong to do that.

[Denisemomof4]

Bus monitors have little power...they can't do anything but TELL someone to knock it off and that isn't going to scare kids who have no respect for authority in the first place. They aren't going to care. The ones that fear consequences of some kind would listen, but many kids don't have that. I would recommend watching the video as well first.

 

THAT IS a problem when a child doesn't fear consequences. It eould make me question that.

 

And I wonder why the heck the bus DRIVER didn't pull over and call for help. That has been done before.

[TheApprentice]

It's an easy out to blame the parents because most parents considering themselves good parents, and their children wouldn't dare behave this way. When kids are around other kids, their behavior can be altered, and it has no reflection, necessarily, on parenting. I think it's naive to think parents hold this much control over another human being.

[Dmmetler]

I think that if my child had taken part-or even sat back and did/said nothing, I'd be pulling my child from that school. Even if I'd never considered homeschooling before. Virtual school, private school, Abeka video classes....something. Because that's one TOXIC peer group, and while I know good kids can end up following a bad seed or two, especially when they fear being targets themselves, that's not an environment I'd want my child in.

 

While I started homeschooling for academic reasons, more and more I'm realizing that while homeschooling doesn't shelter my child from the bad parts of life, it gives her a lot more control over them.

 

Of course, I'm the person who regularly walked 2 miles in middle school, carrying a saxophone case, to avoid the bus, because I considered the middle school bus to be something out of Dante, populated by vaguely human looking demons who somehow transformed from normal kids when they went through the portal to the movable abyss.

[clarkacademy]

This is so frustrating to me! I think she is probably a kind hearted woman who doesn't want to cause problems. I also think everyone involved in this situation is so stunned by the attention that they quite don't know what to do.

 

If my kid was involved, I would be disappointed that she was being so lenient. And it would be far from the first time I witnessed this behavior in an adult.

 

This is not a sarcasm thing I promise. What would you have liked her to do? In your opinion what should have happened to these boys?

 

I would also just like to say in some kind of defense I have heard of bus drivers pulling over or even going back to school. My sons comes to mind. Not only did she get in MAJOR trouble she lost a week of work with NO pay. In Indiana my sons special needs bus went back to the school because of a certain child. Yes they called his parents to come get him and the driver even called all the other parents to let them know why their child was late.

 

A bunch of other parents called complaining and that driver got in trouble and lost a week with no pay for taking the children to a place that was not a designated stop.

[Denisemomof4]

This is not a sarcasm thing I promise. What would you have liked her to do? In your opinion what should have happened to these boys?

 

I would also just like to say in some kind of defense I have heard of bus drivers pulling over or even going back to school. My sons comes to mind. Not only did she get in MAJOR trouble she lost a week of work with NO pay. In Indiana my sons special needs bus went back to the school because of a certain child. Yes they called his parents to come get him and the driver even called all the other parents to let them know why their child was late.

 

A bunch of other parents called complaining and that driver got in trouble and lost a week with no pay for taking the children to a place that was not a designated stop.

 

It was stated in the other thread that she didn't want to press charges. I think she should have. If these kids continue on this path, who knows how bad things will get. I have heard of policemen saying that often times all it takes for a turn around is that first time they are hauled away in handcuffs.

 

She also reported nothing. That was wrong of her, the bus driver and the kids who did nothing.

 

I wish I could recall the details but one of my son's buses did pull over and call for help. I don't remember why. Another time I was worried when my kids were very late. I called the school and found out that the bus driver had to turn around to drop off an unruly kid at school. So I guess things are different depending on the state and/or district.

 

If both adults remained silent, that was wrong. It was a bad example to the kids who witnessed the bullying, and it was a horrible example to the bullies. If things went away silently, those bullies would have been empowered to do more.

 

I personally believe the punishment those bullies are experiencing due to all the publicity may be just what they need to set them straight.

Edited June 22, 2012 by Denisemomof4

[justLisa]

THAT IS a problem when a child doesn't fear consequences. It eould make me question that.

 

And I wonder why the heck the bus DRIVER didn't pull over and call for help. That has been done before.

 

There should REALLY be some kind of contract between bus driver/school, and EACH and every child/parent about what is appropriate, and what is inappropriate. If a child acts up, warning, and next time is a trip to principal. Next time you are off the bus for a week or something. And anything terrible such as in this video, bus driver can pull over and call police.

 

I would never send my kid to public school and certainly not a bus, but that is not an option for most kids. And so many parents do not parent but an hour at night and weekends.

[Denisemomof4]

I doubt anything would have come of it even if she had wanted to press charges. There probably wouldn't have been any hand cuffing. They are 13 year old boys who called her mean names as far as we know one time.

 

I don't agree with her not reporting it to anyone though. She is only allowing them to continue their bullying ways by doing that.

 

It was stated in either the other thread or the article linked that she didn't want to press charges. That leads me to assume she could have pressed some sort of charge but I really don't know.

 

You're probably right about the cuffs, but with a child that age, being taken to the police department, finger printed and charged hopefully would have scared them straight. We'll never know.

[Lisbeth]

School is a place of learning, not a guaranteed babysitter. One of our societal problems is that we have come to view school as a babysitter. If your child cannot be civil and handle him or herself in a place of learning, then parents should find other care for th at child. The bad behavior should not have to be endured by good kids or teachers.

 

We have also become much too tolerant as a society. All of the little things we have allowed to creep in in the name of tolerance, being the cool parent, being e friend instead of the parent, being hip, being open minded...add up to an atmosphere of permissiveness and kids not having any moral compass. The path is straight and narrow. No path or moral guidance = the void being filled with cool, mean, loose standards. Even if it is hopelessly dorky and old fashioned of me to think so.

[Denisemomof4]

School is a place of learning, not a guaranteed babysitter. One of our societal problems is that we have come to view school as a babysitter. If your child cannot be civil and handle him or herself in a place of learning, then parents should find other care for th at child. The bad behavior should not have to be endured by good kids or teachers.

 

We have also become much too tolerant as a society. All of the little things we have allowed to creep in in the name of tolerance, being the cool parent, being e friend instead of the parent, being hip, being open minded...add up to an atmosphere of permissiveness and kids not having any moral compass. The path is straight and narrow. No path or moral guidance = the void being filled with cool, mean, loose standards. Even if it is hopelessly dorky and old fashioned of me to think so.

 

Well said, NOT hopelessly dorky and old fashioned at all.

[I.Dup.]

I agree with the PP who said kids need supervision. Period, end of story. Ideally this supervision would be being done by their PARENTS. Because, you know, we as the parents are supposed to be training them and raising them and all. It's no one else's job but people today seem to think they can pawn their kids off to the school bus driver, the school teachers, the neighborhood kids, the neighborhood kid's parents, and on and on. And they really believe if you put a bunch of stupid, pre-teen boys together in a group with little to no adult supervision, they will make good decisions? :confused::001_huh: And this is called socialization? :001_huh::001_huh:

 

I just watched the video for the first time and it really pi$$ed me off. These kids were way over the line. I would want to cut their tongue out if I was their parent for speaking that way to anyone.

 

I err on the side of the parents being largely responsible for a child's behavior. I think it was swellmomma that said if your kid is so mentally ill they cannot be controlled- don't let them out in public. I don't know, I'm just mad because I just watched the video.

[I.Dup.]

School is a place of learning, not a guaranteed babysitter. One of our societal problems is that we have come to view school as a babysitter. If your child cannot be civil and handle him or herself in a place of learning, then parents should find other care for th at child. The bad behavior should not have to be endured by good kids or teachers.

 

We have also become much too tolerant as a society. All of the little things we have allowed to creep in in the name of tolerance, being the cool parent, being e friend instead of the parent, being hip, being open minded...add up to an atmosphere of permissiveness and kids not having any moral compass. The path is straight and narrow. No path or moral guidance = the void being filled with cool, mean, loose standards. Even if it is hopelessly dorky and old fashioned of me to think so.

 

Well said!!!

[JustGin]

I started to read the responses to the thread about the punks bullying the elderly bus monitor. I am not pointing fingers at anyone but I think it is important to understand that it truly is NOT always the parents fault. I have witnessed this first hand with two very close and loving friends. Both are awesome moms, spent a TON of time with their kids (one is a homeschool mom) and both were heavy on nurture and disciplined appropriately. I also have a kid who is disrespectful, selfish, and has been problematic in school, one I could see doing that. It has NOTHING to do with the parenting.

 

Sometimes bullies were bullied themselves at school, bullied at home, bully to be cool. Sometimes parents truly can NOT do anything to help because the kid has a mental illness. Sometimes they are plain old defiant. It is not always the parent.

 

I have to say that I have met more good parents than not in my life. I have most definitely met bad parents, and even parents who would look at that video and do nothing.

 

Sometimes I just get tired of the finger pointing, especially while dealing with mentally ill kids who will do as they please no matter what we parents say or do.

 

Well said! I have a "tough" kid, and yes she has done stuff that embarrassed us and/or was illegal and I would consider us pretty decent parents. She has a ton of issues and is at times h**l to raise, but we love her and we keep at it. It's easy to forget that kids are people too and can and do make poor choices independent of the way they've been raised.

Edited June 22, 2012 by JustGin

[jewellsmommy]

I'd appreciate it if you could name some school districts that use this procedure so I can pass this info on to the administrators here.We'd like to do some cost cutting. Mentally ill children are classified here and get their own bus with their own aide. Some of the routes are $100K each child for the regular school year.

 

****Edited to remove too much personal info :)

 

Ds was in public school before coming to us. He rode the bus with all the other children. He would here too. I know because I've been tempted to put him in school. :tongue_smilie: I won't actually do it but anyway... I know of other children too.

Now, If I made a big fuss, then maybe I could fight for a bus with a special aid. I don't know as I have never even heard of it being offered and I'm hsing anyway. Here, they keep them in the same class room too and just give an extra aid for one on one help. And just for the record, ds is a pretty extreme case that would definitely warrant the extra help if they had it.

 

All that being said, I think there are multiple possible causes for children to act out like that. Sometimes it only takes one rotten kid and a lot of peer pressure to make "good" kids who have been properly raised to succumb to an attitude of jerkiness. It's mob mentality 101.

Edited June 22, 2012 by jewellsmommy

[Joanne]

True story Denise. My comments about pack behavior and anyone's sucesptability went ignored.

[TXMomof4]

The first line of moral culpability lies with the kids. I know that is radical to say nowadays, but I think our therapeutic culture of tracing everyone's sins back to their parents or to some trauma or bullying is actually part of the problem --it distances the perpetrator from his or her act. That is not at all to say that parenting--good and bad--doesn't highly influence kids. But ultimately people make their own choices. Some people have less range of choice than others--those with mental illness, those with lower IQs, victims of certain kinds of trauma, and yes, those with bad parents. However, you can choose a child in any of those categories and not all would choose __<insert bad behavior of choice>______.

 

In a situation in which you have a pack of kids, then group social norms have strong influence and it may be the group mentality, not the parenting at all, which is where fuel is added to the fire.

 

I'm not saying that kid or adult who commits a wrongful act shouldn't look into things inside that might be driving that act, but the fact remains that they committed the act.

 

One of the ways in which I see this "search for the victimization or bad parenting that led to this poor behavior" come out most dangerously when someone has shot people at their school and the first reaction is for the press to pull up stories of them being bullied. That then becomes a kind of justification in people's minds for what has happened and revenge fantasies suddenly become something that might be made into reality. Yes, bullying is bad and the victims should be helped. But when a bully victim becomes a bully him/herself, then that bullying is just as wrong. Plenty of victims of bullying choose other courses of action.

 

I don't think I'm being totally articulate here, but what I'm trying to say is hold the perps responsible. I don't mean that in a punitive way, but in a moral sense. I did it; I'm responsible. Other people may have responsibility to the kid, but if they fail the kid, the kid still has to control what s/he can control. No passing the buck. I am a huge bleeding heart, but I've seen hardcore kids turn around when they accept that truth and not before.

 

I do completely agree with everything above. One added thing - the one interview I heard from a father led me to believe that that father is probably very good. He was "brokenhearted and devastated" when he saw the video. The response you'd expect from a parent whose child has made a very bad choice. He then proceeded to go into why it 'wasn't fair' that his son was being portrayed as a monster and this one little action shouldn't ruin his life.

 

Well.... his son was behaving like a monster. His son may not believe it right now, but I imagine his life isn't ruined forever. Rather than looking at the behavior and immediately trying to help, he immediately started to blame. Yes, his son is facing a lot of criticism - he deserves criticism. Rather than drawing that child in and trying to help him, he starts blaming society for the consequences his son is facing. It is a subtle, but real example of parents refusing to believe that their child is responsible for their bad decisions.

I doubt every child in that group was a bad/mentally ill/sociopath. I imagine most of the parents are 'good' parents. The fact is that all of the factors - group think, lack of supervision, poor judgement AND lack of accountability for the kids led to this situation and thousands more like it daily.

[Tarreymere]

School is a place of learning, not a guaranteed babysitter. One of our societal problems is that we have come to view school as a babysitter. If your child cannot be civil and handle him or herself in a place of learning, then parents should find other care for th at child. The bad behavior should not have to be endured by good kids or teachers.

 

We have also become much too tolerant as a society. All of the little things we have allowed to creep in in the name of tolerance, being the cool parent, being e friend instead of the parent, being hip, being open minded...add up to an atmosphere of permissiveness and kids not having any moral compass. The path is straight and narrow. No path or moral guidance = the void being filled with cool, mean, loose standards. Even if it is hopelessly dorky and old fashioned of me to think so.

 

Nice idea, but there IS NO other 'care' for some children. Certainly not anything someone could pay for unless one were extremely wealthy. And sociopaths do not always choose to be born into wealthy families.

 

The only thing I could finally think of to do was to quit my job (which supported the family) and chain my dd to my body. Literally. CPS agreed with that, as long as she was chained to me and not to an inanimate object. Even then she escaped. Do you even understand what that is like? How sustainable do you think that was? By then I had four younger children at home also. This illness doesn't present until the teen years remember. There is NO OTHER CARE. In case you are curious, you can't even hire a security guard to sit on your kid because they won't do it. What other care? Teens are as physically large as adults, too. Would you want to chain a hundred and thirty pound violent sociopath to YOUR body?

 

Even when she was placed in residential treatment by the courts for short spurts of time she regularly escaped and mixed with the general population of kids. Eventually I ran out of money and had to work. Did I work while she was supposedly at school or in the evening when my absence would mean literally dozens of other delinquents would invade my home and put my other kids at risk? What would you do?

 

It sound alll nice and proper to say 'the parents should' this or 'the parents should' that, but in reality the parents may well be shell-shocked and horrified themselves and completely overwhelmed. Isn't that what this thread is about? That even good, caring, involved parents can end up completely out of their depth trying to parent a kid with a serious mental illness and not be successful?

 

It would have been very helpful if some of those human services dollars coudl have been allocated for long term residential treatment with close 24 hour supervision, and intensive treatment and monitoring of kids like these, but our society would rather sigh and pretend that all bad kids are the result of lazy parents. And then act horrified when one of those kids surfaces in their own (good) neighborhood.

 

Please remember that your average sociopath presents as pleasant and charming and makes friends easily, they don't run around with a sign on their heads. These kids aren't mentally challenged. they can be very bright and even gifted intellectually, they don't have any trouble with impulse control or with knowing right from wrong, and when you meet them they are very sweet, friendly, and nice, usually very popular with other kids. Leaders, in fact. If any of those kids on that bus is a sociopath you won't be able to tell by looking at him or even listening to him. They are perfectly capable of acting contrite when it is expedient, they are capable of feigning remorse. It is how they act when they think they can get away with it, when they think no one important is watching that makes the difference. And isn't that exactly what happened on that bus? None of those kids ever thought anyone would know what they did or said. If those kids aren't sociopaths they are at the very least 'on the spectrum'.......they had no guilt or remorse UNTIL they got caught. Sounds like a sociopath to me.

 

I agree that some kids just need their parents to step up. But you are living in a fantasy world if you think that is all that needs to happen. There is a substantial percentage of kids out there with this diagnosis influencing the culture and behavior of the rest of these kids. That culture reinforces those antisocial traits and it is a vicious cycle. I've read that the incidence of sociopaths in society is increasing because of certain social and culture attitudes and other factors that reinforce sociopathic tendencies. We should all find that frightening.

Edited June 24, 2012 by Rainefox

[Tarreymere]

I've said this before, but kids spend so much time in school and other facilities that they have very little time around anyone working on the other aspects of their development (such as behavior). We get told child rearing isn't anyone's job, but the parents, but many kids don't spend much time with their parents.

 

One of the reasons I homeschool and do not work is because when I was working I didn't see my child except to basically tuck him in at night and a few hours on the weekend (which was time shared with all the other tasks that had to get done). And those who did spend the bulk of the time with my kid weren't doing any parenting.

 

I really think that either kids need to spend more time with their parents, or teachers really do need more training in areas other than education because they ARE spending so much time with our kids.

 

Some people do make doing it all work (working, spending time with their kids, etc.). So I don't want to say this is that way for every situation, but it was for mine. So basically my choice was to raise my children and give up my career, or have my career and hope for the best in terms of how my children turned out. I'm glad I had the choice. Not everyone does. But what the heck. If kids are spending more time with their teacher than me why don't they think the child has needs besides academics? Makes no sense to me.

 

 

It isn't the teacher who is influencing those kids, it is the other kids. It is all that 'socialization' that we are so determined that our kids 'should' have, that we think they 'need'. Public and private school parents who take their kids to school in the morning and drop them off, then ferry the kids to afterschool activities, ect and rarely spend even that mythical 'quality time' with their kids are the most gulliable but even homeschoolers fall for the idea that their kids 'need' lots of time around other kids to 'develop properly'.

 

Well, you are wrong. It isn't the teacher, it isn't the parents, it is the other kids who become the strongest and most important influence on kids, on how they think, how they feel, and how they act, how they dress, on what they say or what they listen to. Kids, especially in the teen years. are intensely drawn to 'fit in' with the crowd. Who is the 'crowd'? The crowd is that group of kids.....and they don't look like or act like adults. So, who is making the choices that determine what the 'crowd' will look like or act like? Other kids, that's who. kids who are bright, charming, natural leaders......and some of those bright, charming popular kids are sociopaths.

 

I began to find out what my bright, charming, popular fourteen year old kid was when she tried to smash in another girl's face with a brick to keep that girl from testifying against a local drug dealer in a criminal trial. Did she get kicked out of school? No. Did she go to jail? Not that time. Did she get banned from the bus, the library, or the cafeteria? No. Did the school kick her out of the college prep courses or prevent her from taking AP courses? No. Did all of her friends drop her in horror and refuse to have anything to do with her? No, in fact she became even more popular. Your kid wanted to be like my kid. Your kid wanted to dress like my kid, to hang out with her, to listen to the music she listened to, to spend time with her. THAT is what you should think about........THAT is what you should be concerned about.

Edited June 24, 2012 by Rainefox

[MamaBearTeacher]

I agree that group mentality and peer pressure are a big part of situations like these. I think that in situations smart kids (and even adults) choose to follow the strong person. If a person wants to succeed in a me-centered world they are not going to stick up for the underdog (even though it is the right thing to do) and risk being ostracized themselves. In very few cases will they be caught anyways. Bullying happens every day, all the time and it is rarely made public like this.

 

But the child who was doing most of the taunting? I was shocked at the horrific things that came out of his mouth. As a 13-year old I would never have even thought such awful things about anyone, let alone a kindly, elderly passive bus monitor. His insults were cruel and disgusting but they were also complex, creative and relentless. I didn't watch the whole thing and I don't want to. I feel so sorry for the woman.

That boy scares me so much. How did such cruel thoughts even enter his mind?

[Lang Syne Boardie]

Rainefox, I've learned a lot from your posts in this thread. Thanks for taking the time to explain and share.

[jujsky]

True story Denise. My comments about pack behavior and anyone's sucesptability went ignored.

 

When I told my mom about this news story, her second reaction (her first was, "What a bunch of horrible brats! I hate jr. high! That's the worse age!") was pack mentality. She said when kids get in a group, they feed off each other.

[brehon]

Rainefox, I've learned a lot from your posts in this thread. Thanks for taking the time to explain and share.

 

:iagree: I also agree with whomever said that focusing on these kids' parents & whatever failings they might have detracts from the bigger issues. It also allows us a measure of false comfort.

[Denisemomof4]

True story Denise. My comments about pack behavior and anyone's sucesptability went ignored.

 

:confused: I do believe in pack behavios and many of us stated that. I didn't see you respond upthhread.

 

I hope you are ok.:grouphug:

[Denisemomof4]

I do completely agree with everything above. One added thing - the one interview I heard from a father led me to believe that that father is probably very good. He was "brokenhearted and devastated" when he saw the video. The response you'd expect from a parent whose child has made a very bad choice. He then proceeded to go into why it 'wasn't fair' that his son was being portrayed as a monster and this one little action shouldn't ruin his life.

 

Well.... his son was behaving like a monster. His son may not believe it right now, but I imagine his life isn't ruined forever. Rather than looking at the behavior and immediately trying to help, he immediately started to blame. Yes, his son is facing a lot of criticism - he deserves criticism. Rather than drawing that child in and trying to help him, he starts blaming society for the consequences his son is facing. It is a subtle, but real example of parents refusing to believe that their child is responsible for their bad decisions.

I doubt every child in that group was a bad/mentally ill/sociopath. I imagine most of the parents are 'good' parents. The fact is that all of the factors - group think, lack of supervision, poor judgement AND lack of accountability for the kids led to this situation and thousands more like it daily.

 

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

[Denisemomof4]

Nice idea, but there IS NO other 'care' for some children. Certainly not anything someone could pay for unless one were extremely wealthy. And sociopaths do not always choose to be born into wealthy families.

 

The only thing I could finally think of to do was to quit my job (which supported the family) and chain my dd to my body. Literally. CPS agreed with that, as long as she was chained to me and not to an inanimate object. Even then she escaped. Do you even understand what that is like? How sustainable do you think that was? By then I had four younger children at home also. This illness doesn't present until the teen years remember. There is NO OTHER CARE. In case you are curious, you can't even hire a security guard to sit on your kid because they won't do it. What other care? Teens are as physically large as adults, too. Would you want to chain a hundred and thirty pound violent sociopath to YOUR body?

 

Even when she was placed in residential treatment by the courts for short spurts of time she regularly escaped and mixed with the general population of kids. Eventually I ran out of money and had to work. Did I work while she was supposedly at school or in the evening when my absence would mean literally dozens of other delinquents would invade my home and put my other kids at risk? What would you do?

 

It sound alll nice and proper to say 'the parents should' this or 'the parents should' that, but in reality the parents may well be shell-shocked and horrified themselves and completely overwhelmed. Isn't that what this thread is about? That even good, caring, involved parents can end up completely out of their depth trying to parent a kid with a serious mental illness and not be successful?

 

It would have been very helpful if some of those human services dollars coudl have been allocated for long term residential treatment with close 24 hour supervision, and intensive treatment and monitoring of kids like these, but our society would rather sigh and pretend that all bad kids are the result of lazy parents. And then act horrified when one of those kids surfaces in their own (good) neighborhood.

 

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

 

I am SO sorry you had to go through that. What a scary time for your family. Thank you for sharing:grouphug:

[I.Dup.]

Have any of you read the book "Hold On To Your Kids?" This conversation reminds me of that book, and it details just about the same things Rainefox is writing.