A Question for the co-sleeping and/or EBF moms - just curious. :)

[PeacefulChaos]

ETA: I just wanted to come back and say that I didn't want anyone to feel like I was questioning the ability of these kids to grow up just like everyone else. I really was only referring to the baby/young toddler years. :) And mainly, the sleeping. :lol: Because I was voted 'Most likely to sleep through life' as a senior in high school, and I do love my sleeping... :lol:

 

Ok, I'm trying to think of how to ask it WITHOUT it sounding controversial... and I'm having a hard time. So let me just preface this by saying that I AM NOT asking to be judgmental or anything like that, I'm HONESTLY wondering. (I know, I also now look like I'm yelling - I'm just trying to make sure that, before I ask this, everyone knows that I'm coming from a place of honestly wondering and not trying to be snarky or rude.)

 

All right. :D

 

Here's my question. It's sort of AP-related, I guess. I've been reading various other threads, including the recent one on cosleeping. And I thought to myself, so, if the baby sleeps in the bed, and mom is always there to comfort baby and whatnot, does that lead to the baby being too reliant on mom for comfort? I don't mean as a newborn... I know they can't really do anything but rely on mom in that phase. :) I'm just not familiar with how the AP philosophy works... I guess I'm just wondering, is it not expected for them to learn how to soothe themselves at some point? (PLEASE please don't read that wrong... honest, clueless question) At what age? I also noticed in the EBF thread that many said that it was an easy thing for a toddler who is throwing a temper tantrum... but I have always thought that most people ignored tantrums, or put them in another room, not soothed them in any way. And I just didn't know if, like with co-sleeping, the baby like, wakes up even when they wouldn't if they knew how to soothe themselves? Or am I nuts and it's all the same, whether they are in the crib or in the bed?

Anyway, I'm just curious. Openly, honestly, curious. :) I don't really know anyone IRL who is AP, and generally the people around here who have babies sleeping in the bed with them are looked down upon as babying or spoiling the baby. It's a very pro-BF community (I was not popular in my choice not to), but everyone weans by a year, and if they haven't, people think it's weird. Anyway, all that just to say that this is all very unfamiliar to me, and I didn't realize it was so prevalent or widely accepted. Being on this board has widened my horizons quite a bit. :) I'm still happy with the way we've been raising our kids, but it has made me a lot more open to the different parenting decisions others make, and how little it should really matter to anyone else. ;)

Edited June 3, 2012 by PeacefulChaos

[mommymilkies]

They are babies-not adults with coping skills. Research shows that CIO and making them soothe themselves all of the time causes actual brain damage. Is that what you mean? Because I don't know any EBF or AP moms who never help or teach their kids to sooth themselves. But not in a harsh and forceful manner. Of course they learn to soothe themselves over time! Kids don't like being up all night, either. With co-sleeping, we sleep more comfortably because I can be lazy and not get out of bed, and I like cuddling and knowing my kid is breathing (I had a friend whose dd died of SIDS when our babies were 1 week apart in age-traumatized me for life!). So I sleep better. My LO is not a "cuddler", though, and spreads out at night. If she wakes and is hungry, she wakes me by saying milk and then falls back asleep and gets comfortable again.

 

So I'm confused by exactly what you're asking, really. Sorry for the rambling!

[LillyMama]

We weren't co-sleepers (we stopped after six months) and we did varying types of CIO when my kids we in the second six months of life. So I won't give you any anecdotal evidence.

 

But I do want to say- I've heard your same questions come regarding homeschooling. "Aren't you afraid if you're always there for your son he'll be a mama's boy?" So I just thought it was a little funny to see that question on these boards. :D

 

There are varying opinions on all facets of parenting. Some of us can be described as over-protective in some areas while neglectful in areas. It's just a matter of experience and priorities.

[chepyl]

I never nursed a tantrum. If they got hurt or were sick, I nursed to soothe. I have two of the most independent kids I know! DD still sleeps with us some, but she has no issues self soothing unless shr is REALLY hurt.

[Ellie]

Here's my question. It's sort of AP-related, I guess. I've been reading various other threads, including the recent one on cosleeping. And I thought to myself, so, if the baby sleeps in the bed, and mom is always there to comfort baby and whatnot, does that lead to the baby being too reliant on mom for comfort?

Not for us. :)

 

 

I don't mean as a newborn... I know they can't really do anything but rely on mom in that phase. :) I'm just not familiar with how the AP philosophy works... I guess I'm just wondering, is it not expected for them to learn how to soothe themselves at some point? (PLEASE please don't read that wrong... honest, clueless question) At what age?

I never heard the concept of children "soothing" themselves until long after my dc were all grown up. I guess it was never an issue for us.

 

I also noticed in the EBF thread that many said that it was an easy thing for a toddler who is throwing a temper tantrum... but I have always thought that most people ignored tantrums, or put them in another room, not soothed them in any way. And I just didn't know if, like with co-sleeping, the baby like, wakes up even when they wouldn't if they knew how to soothe themselves? Or am I nuts and it's all the same, whether they are in the crib or in the bed?

I would think it would depend on the reason for the tamtrum. When I ignored dd#1's little tantrums (I'd say "No, you may not stick your finger in the electrical outlet," and she'd fall down...not much of a tantrum but still a tantrum), which began when she was about a year old, they just got worse. So the next couple of times she did it, I popped her on her diaper-padded bum, and she quit doing that. I guess I should be thankful that her was so small, lol.

 

At any rate, I disagree that ignoring a tantrum is the best way to handle it, but again, it would depend...depend...depend.

 

Anyway, I'm just curious. Openly, honestly, curious. :) I don't really know anyone IRL who is AP, and generally the people around here who have babies sleeping in the bed with them are looked down upon as babying or spoiling the baby. It's a very pro-BF community (I was not popular in my choice not to), but everyone weans by a year, and if they haven't, people think it's weird. Anyway, all that just to say that this is all very unfamiliar to me, and I didn't realize it was so prevalent or widely accepted. Being on this board has widened my horizons quite a bit. :) I'm still happy with the way we've been raising our kids, but it has made me a lot more open to the different parenting decisions others make, and how little it should really matter to anyone else. ;)

 

I co-slept with dd#2, but not dd#1. I wish I had co-slept with dd#1. :-( And frankly, *I* look down on people who think BFing is great but then wean by a year. :001_huh: Ok, it might be too strong to say that I "look down" on them, but yeah, I have a few moments of being judgemental, especially when those people are critical of those who BF longer.

[pbb119]

In my observations w/4 children of my own, and having discussions w/other parents is this: a needy child will be needy regardless and an independent child will be so regardless as well. I do not think that AP "makes" a child needy/clingy, or otherwise unable to soothe themselves. Babies are born with different temperaments, and as a parent, I do not "parent" a specific way. I let my child lead how they need to be parented. Just as I choose different curriculum for different learning styles, I choose different parenting styles for different temperaments.

 

I co-slept my #1 and #3. #4 has never wanted or needed it. She started sleeping through the night by the time she was 4 months old (and she was EBF!). #3 co-slept for a short while when we moved into a new house and he couldn't sleep in his own bed. It didn't last more than a month.

 

My #3 would still be nursing if I let him. He co-slept continuously and nursed all night long straight through until he was 2 years old. I think he only stopped b/c I became pg w/#4 and he wasn't getting much anyway, and it was soooo uncomfortable for me that I had to limit his nursing...and he was over it by then anyway. He now sleeps in his own bed (he is 4) and he is my single **most** independent, confident, self-reliant, and well-rounded child of the bunch.

 

My first child only ended up co-sleeping when he wouldn't stop crying and sleep any other way. I didn't know anything about parenting styles, etc. at that time, and I tried like heck to make him sleep in his own crib because, well, that is what you are supposed to do, right? We did CIO, and some "method"....I can't remember what it was called to try and get baby to sleep on their own...nothing worked, and made things worse. Finally I gave in b/c I **needed** rest and he wasn't sleeping ANY other way! People constantly judged and criticized me for letting him co-sleep, and as a new parent, I took that so hard, and to heart. I tried so hard to do things the "traditional" and "accepted" way, and things only went from bad to worse with his crying and "neediness." It wasn't until I began AP, (after reading The Fussy Baby Book, by Dr. Sears) w/him that things got waaaaaay better, and by 2 years old, he was sleeping in his own bed all night long.

 

I think people should stop labeling parenting styles, or identifying w/a particular style, or trying to fit into a parenting style, and instead, should just follow their own instincts and the needs of the baby. If a baby is crying, (s)he needs something. Responding to those needs ~however much~ does not create a needy child, on the contrary, that child feels loved and secure and, IMO, is stronger and LESS likely to be needy in the future.

Edited June 3, 2012 by jmja11

[myfunnybunch]

With regard to self-soothing, cosleeping/EBF philosophy goes something like this: If baby's needs for comforting are met consistently, they will gradually naturally learn to self-soothe. Nothing wrong with "babying" a baby. :)

 

I nursed and co-slept with all of my little ones until somewhere between ages 2-3. I had a cio parent assure me that co-sleeping would lead to lifelong sleep problems, but my boys transitioned to sleeping in their owns beds without much fuss. They are good sleepers.

 

They're independent young men. I had another well-meaning person tell me that the reason my middle ds had a hard time separating as a toddler/young preschooler was because I let him sleep with us. It was just his personality. I let him separate from me when ready, and he's very self-assured at age 9.

 

I used to be certain that co-sleeping was best. Now I believe that it's more about routines and relationship. Children who know what to expect, whether that's bedtime with mom and dad or bedtime in a cozy bed, and whose parents give fairly consistent and loving guidance, will turn out just fine. :)

 

Cat

[freesia]

Ok, I'm trying to think of how to ask it WITHOUT it sounding controversial... and I'm having a hard time. So let me just preface this by saying that I AM NOT asking to be judgmental or anything like that, I'm HONESTLY wondering. (I know, I also now look like I'm yelling - I'm just trying to make sure that, before I ask this, everyone knows that I'm coming from a place of honestly wondering and not trying to be snarky or rude.)

 

All right. :D

 

Here's my question. It's sort of AP-related, I guess. I've been reading various other threads, including the recent one on cosleeping. And I thought to myself, so, if the baby sleeps in the bed, and mom is always there to comfort baby and whatnot, does that lead to the baby being too reliant on mom for comfort? I don't mean as a newborn... I know they can't really do anything but rely on mom in that phase. :) I'm just not familiar with how the AP philosophy works... I guess I'm just wondering, is it not expected for them to learn how to soothe themselves at some point? (PLEASE please don't read that wrong... honest, clueless question) At what age? I also noticed in the EBF thread that many said that it was an easy thing for a toddler who is throwing a temper tantrum... but I have always thought that most people ignored tantrums, or put them in another room, not soothed them in any way. And I just didn't know if, like with co-sleeping, the baby like, wakes up even when they wouldn't if they knew how to soothe themselves? Or am I nuts and it's all the same, whether they are in the crib or in the bed?

;)

 

I always felt that this view was curious. One of the reasons toddlers have temper tantrums is that they are not verbal enough to explain that they are tired, want something, etc. Allowing nursing to soothe gets you through until they are more verbal. It re-establishes attachment and once the child is calm it is easier to move to a solution to the problem.

 

I'm not sure I know how you mean self soothing. My children do still come to me for a hug when they are upset. There ability to cope with difficulty seems age appropriate. I am not sure crying in frustration when they were a baby and couldn't understand needing to wait would have taught that.

 

If you mean sleeping through the night, my last 3 were sleeping through by one month (with the normal teething difficulties later on.) The first slept through when I night weaned him at 11 months. The difference was I swaddled the last 3. Once unswaddled they didn't start waking. Oh, my second did suck her thumb and my third sucked his tongue. Is that what you mean by self soothing? They didn't cry it out in order to learn that, though.

 

The first 2 co-slept in a side car arragement, the second 2 in a co-sleeper until 5 months and then a crib in our room (until 2 or so.)

 

Anyway, I guess what I'm saying is that I don't see any difference in my kids ability to cope compared to their friends who cried it out.

 

Thank you for asking. I get very frustrated when folks (on either side of this issue) just make assumptions based on stereotypes and exaggerations that they read in books. :001_smile:

 

eta: They are all good sleepers now, too.

Edited June 3, 2012 by freesia

[freesia]

With regard to self-soothing, cosleeping/EBF philosophy goes something like this: If baby's needs for comforting are met consistently, they will gradually naturally learn to self-soothe. Nothing wrong with "babying" a baby. :)

 

:iagree:

 

I nursed and co-slept with all of my little ones until somewhere between ages 2-3. I had a cio parent assure me that co-sleeping would lead to lifelong sleep problems, but my boys transitioned to sleeping in their owns beds without much fuss. They are good sleepers.

 

:iagree:

They're independent young men. I had another well-meaning person tell me that the reason my middle ds had a hard time separating as a toddler/young preschooler was because I let him sleep with us. It was just his personality. I let him separate from me when ready, and he's very self-assured at age 9.

 

My child who had the greatest difficulty separating from me as a little one is by far my most independent now. I think bc I didn't force her then, she grew in confidence.

 

I used to be certain that co-sleeping was best. Now I believe that it's more about routines and relationship. Children who know what to expect, whether that's bedtime with mom and dad or bedtime in a cozy bed, and whose parents give fairly consistent and loving guidance, will turn out just fine. :)

:iagree:

 

Cat

.

[Mommyof4ks]

I followed the 'they need to be independent from birth' philosophy mainly because I did I not know any different with my first, and oddly enough she is my most dependent child. My boys co-slept, BF for well over a year, and we're practically attached to my hip lol, and they are much more independent and outgoing, and they can calm themselves quickly and usually think more rationally than dd. I do not know if those things are related or not, but I do find it interesting.

 

So in short, no I do not find that AP parenting leads to dependence. Obviously if a parent does not want to let their child grow up that would lead to dependence, but I have not seen that among those I know.

[Excelsior! Academy]

Nope. Not here. The one child I wore constantly is my most outgoing. The child I nursed the shortest time is my most quiet. We have not noticed unusual attachment. at. all. All of my children are very secure. While we Homeschool and they like being with me and our family, they are perfectly fine when circumstances dictate otherwise.

[Farrar]

Well...

 

I think any philosophy can be carried too far. I won't say that I haven't seen AP parents who have such a lack of boundaries for their children in every possible way that it makes me crazy because unfortunately I have.

 

On the other hand, I don't think co-sleeping and EBF are the cause of lack of boundaries by any means. You can absolutely have appropriate boundaries within those practices. We practiced child-led weaning (they didn't go that long term though) and co-slept long term (I eased them out before they turned 6 yo) and especially as the kids got older, we established a lot of clear boundaries about the family bed and what was acceptable and what was not.

 

As for tantrums, I think it depends a lot on the child. I used to try and soothe mine through them but they had weaned themselves by the age at which tantrums are bad. And soothing them did not help end a single tantrum, so we did have to take another tactic. For me, this is where philosophy meets practice - you have to be willing to change course if it's not working, even if you think one method is right.

[redsquirrel]

But..but..if you don't send them to school how will they ever learn to be independent? How will they learn to deal with bullies? You are making life too easy on them!

 

That's what questions about AP remind me of.

 

But..but.. if you let them nurse and co-sleep how will they ever learn to be independent? How will they learn to take care of themselves when they are sad? You are making life too easy on them.

 

Children WANT to grow up. They WANT to be independent. Being and AP parent simply makes them part of the conversation. In some things, I let my kids lead the way. In some things I led the way. Most of the time, we found our way together. I see a relationship as having a back and forth component. Being in a family is something we do together, not something I do to my children.

 

And so much of this is cultural. My SIL lived in Japan for 20 years, married to a Japanese man and raising a family. She found this obsession with independence of babies to be very western. In Japan families sleep together as a matter of course. When adult children visit their parents they sleep in the same room. They seem to do fine as a people and a culture.

[kricau]

Just a word of warning...I am STILL sleeping with my 7 year old !!!

[kricau]

LOL

But I should also mention that she is a fully functioning member of society. She goes to a co-op class once a week. Takes a Gymnastic class once a week. And is perfectly capable of making (and keeping) friends.

So I am not to worried about her social skills. I am just saying that old habits die hard......

Edited June 3, 2012 by kricau
spell check

[Soror]

My kids are far more independent than the non-cosleeping CIO kids I know, as people always tell us. They also do not come to back to our bed after moving out unlike many. I think there are personality differences but also when a child's needs are met when they are small it makes them more confident later.

Edited June 3, 2012 by soror

[VeganCupcake]

But..but..if you don't send them to school how will they ever learn to be independent? How will they learn to deal with bullies? You are making life too easy on them!

 

That's what questions about AP remind me of.

 

But..but.. if you let them nurse and co-sleep how will they ever learn to be independent? How will they learn to take care of themselves when they are sad? You are making life too easy on them.

 

Children WANT to grow up. They WANT to be independent. Being and AP parent simply makes them part of the conversation. In some things, I let my kids lead the way. In some things I led the way. Most of the time, we found our way together. I see a relationship as having a back and forth component. Being in a family is something we do together, not something I do to my children.

 

And so much of this is cultural. My SIL lived in Japan for 20 years, married to a Japanese man and raising a family. She found this obsession with independence of babies to be very western. In Japan families sleep together as a matter of course. When adult children visit their parents they sleep in the same room. They seem to do fine as a people and a culture.

 

Yes, just as children have a drive to learn ("Why? What's that?"), they have a drive to be independent ("I do it myself!"). Sometimes they need to be closer to us, and sometimes they are ready for more distance and separation. That changes with outside events, developmental stages, and other factors.

 

I had a lot of separation anxiety when I was a kid, and it was not because I was parented in an AP fashion! :lol: Quite the opposite. I suspect that when we meet a child's needs for closeness, we make it possible for them to have more confidence to explore and move away when the time comes because they know they can come back to have the need for closeness met again.

 

It is also true that in most cultures, babies and children sleep with their parents and/or grandparents. It's only a very recent western, affluent development to put babies and children in separate beds and rooms.

[Michelle in AL]

I can answer from my own family's experience.

 

Brother (16 yrs my junior): EBF and co-sleeper until age 8? Has pretty significant anxiety, depression issues, on multiple medications for these, but his father (not the same as mine) has these issues too. Coping mechanism seems to be anxiety/avoidance.

 

Brother (20yrs my juinor): EBF, cosleeper until age 11. Appears to cope well, main coping mechanism is to talk it out with those close to him and persevere through. Has some insomnia issues probably due to being a little high strung (normal for family).

 

My oldest dd: BF until 10 mos. Cosleeper at times until age 3 or 4. Very independent, copes well, handles herself extremely well under stress.

 

Youngest dd: BF until 14 mos, cosleeper at times until about 6. Copes very well. Learned other coping mechanisms such as journaling, art, yoga etc. More emotional than older dd.

 

So as I outline it in my family, it seems the poor coping mechanisms/inability to self soothe are more likely due to family genetics.

[garddwr]

I have just done what my own instincts tell me my babies need. It seems natural to me that a very small person who is not in fact able to take care of themself should be confident that a trusted, loving adult is nearby to take care of them. I do not expect them to self-soothe anymore than I expect them to make their own meals, do their own laundry, or walk themselves to the park. Generally they share my bed until they are about 4 years old, then (now that I have olders) graduate to sharing a bed with a sibling if they so prefer. I grew up this way--I actually really enjoyed having a preschooler to cuddle in bed with when I was a teenager. Across cultures, this is more the norm and North American/Western European societies that put babies and toddlers in beds by themselves are the exception.

 

As for the waking more--yes, I think my children to wake more, or at least they wake ME more, than they would if they were not still BF'ing. But as long as they're in bed with me it's easy to just roll over and nurse for a few minutes and go right back to sleep. They don't seem to "sleep through the night" until they are weaned, and even then they sometimes wake and need a special snuggle. My 4 year old has frequent nightmares, and I know it is very comforting to her to have someone to cuddle close to when she is scared.

 

One of my friends told me a story related to the standard American setup (babies/toddlers in separate beds and rooms) that really made me cringe--her toddler slept in a room down the hallway, with the door closed. When he woke during the night they expected him to go back to sleep on his on. One night she heard him crying but just waited for him to stop and fall back asleep, which eventually he did. When she got up in the morning and went in his room she found that he had had an upset tummy during the night and he and his bed were covered in cold wet vomit. I couldn't handle a situation like that--when something is wrong with one of my little ones, whether they are scared or sick or just sad and lonely, I want to be there for them--I want them to know there is always someone ready to love and cuddle and take care of them, and they don't have to face their troubles on their own.

Edited June 3, 2012 by thegardener

[Sara in AZ]

Thank you got your honest question. All of my babies have slept with us until between the ages of 2 and 3. I often reflect on advice I received when my first was a baby from a woman (incidentally one of my homeschooling mentors whom I greatly respect.). It 's on the opposite end of the spectrum: she told me that her pediatrician father told her that any baby over 6 months who is still waking in the night is being basically playing and manipulating it's parents. That makes about as much sense to me as thinking a co sleeping infant will never gain independence. To me, it has always made sense to meet my infant and toddler's needs through proximity and bf as best I could.

[ChristusG]

My oldest AP baby is now 8 years old. I exclusively breastfed, co-slept (still have a family bedroom), wore her, and never really left her anywhere for 3 or 4 years (didn't leave her AT ALL for the first two years).

 

She's very confident and independent now. She's shy (as in, she won't talk to many people), but she's not afraid to dive into new situations with people that she doesn't know. She may not talk to those people, but if there are activities to participate in, she definitely will. She doesn't mind being left in new places without me (camps, activities, etc). I feel that because I was there for her at all times as she was growing and learning about the world, she has confidence that I will be there for her when she needs me now....so she doesn't have to stick right by my side. She knows I'll be there when needed.

 

My second AP baby is now 5 and she hasn't quite reached her independence yet. She'll get there. My first got there around 6 years old and has come into her own even more in the past year.

[Mergath]

I've shared this before here, I think, but the initial reason I decided to co-sleep was something I heard in an Anthropology class, long before I was pregnant. The prof was telling us about some studies he'd done in Africa, in a place where co-sleeping is the norm, and about how one young man came up to him and asked, "Now tell me the truth, is it true that in America you make your babies sleep in cages?" I never looked at a crib the same way after that.

 

As to the op's question, we didn't do EBF for medical reasons, but we've always co-slept. Dd still sleeps with us ninety-nine percent of the time. She doesn't have any strange attachment issues, is becomeing a very, very outgoing child, and has no problems self-soothing. I think a lot more of a child's temperment has to do with what goes on during the waking hours than with where they sleep.

[ktgrok]

They ask for what they need, so eventually yes, they learn to soothe themselves just by getting older and more mature, and having more mature sleep patterns. Plus they learn object permanance, so they are able to reason out that mom is still in the house, and everyone is safe, etc....a toddler can't reason that out really.

 

Plus, personally, I think most mammals sleep cuddled together...how many adults have trouble sleeping when their significant other is out of town? I know I do. I think it is very natural. But eventually the need for space/independence outweighs the need for comfort and a sleeping partner.

 

When we transitioned my son to his own bed, in his own room, he was about 3 , or a bit more. He was old enough to understand what was going on, to talk to me about it, to understand that "I'll check on you in a minute" meant I would be right back, etc. A baby or toddler really can't understand all that. So we had no problem transitioning. I would sit on his bed with him the first few days, while he fell asleep. Then I would sit in a chair beside the bed and read with a book light. Then I sat in the hall with my book. Then, the next night, I would go "check on something in the kitchen" and come right back...once I could do that I told him I was going to be in the next room, and to call if he needed me. That worked fine, no tears, no crying it out, and he now, at age 12, sleeps like a rock. You couldn't wake him if you tried.

 

s for learning to be independent...kids WANT to be independent, once they are ready for it. That's why they are always saying "me do it!". They are dependent on us for SUCH a short time, and allowing them to be dependent like that won't stop them from wanting normal independence. There is no need to "teach" independence, it will come, probably faster and more than we want!!!! (says the mom with the 2 year old insisting on dressing herself!)

[ktgrok]

Also, keep in mind that what we call "AP" is really just normal parenting in many many societies, and is how less developed societies raise children. The concept of putting babies to sleep by themselves, limiting nursing to one year, using playpens, etc is VERY new and a totally novel concept in human history. Tribal societies wear their children, nurse an average of about 3-5 years, and cosleep, often with the whole family in one room. Just because our society has changed doesn't mean our babies' brains have changed, or their needs.

[ChristusG]

Also, keep in mind that what we call "AP" is really just normal parenting in many many societies, and is how less developed societies raise children. The concept of putting babies to sleep by themselves, limiting nursing to one year, using playpens, etc is VERY new and a totally novel concept in human history. Tribal societies wear their children, nurse an average of about 3-5 years, and cosleep, often with the whole family in one room. Just because our society has changed doesn't mean our babies' brains have changed, or their needs.

 

:iagree: This. Totally. I often wonder if I should raise my babies in Africa or somewhere of the like....I feel quite out of place most times among other families.

[PeacefulChaos]

Thanks everyone! (More replies are, of course, still great. :) )

I did realize as I was reading through that I didn't really specify what I meant by self soothing - I was thinking like if they wake up during the night, getting themselves back to sleep without nursing or having mom comfort them, etc.

I hope no one felt like I was saying I doubt their kids' independence. I agree that kids want to be independent. :) I also think that it looks like everything comes down to what I've always thought regarding other things - kids are people, and they do what they want to do when they want to do it. (I often say stuff like this when people try to tell others how incredibly easy girls are and how boys are just awful... ;) )

Anyway, just to specify in the OP, I was thinking about more of the baby/toddler stage.

I also didn't specify what type of tantrum, which also explains why what I pictured when someone said they nursed a toddler having a tantrum had me confused. :) For me, a tantrum is screaming/laying down on the floor (well, for Pink, technically...not me! :lol: ) and the whole nine yards. I've always just picked her up and put her on her bed for it, and told her she can come out when she's done. :) (Half the time she decides to lay down or play instead, the other half she stops within 30 seconds of me leaving her there and comes out. :D ) But I think that a lot of tantrums aren't quite so...tantrum-y. So that explains my confusion over that, I think, as well as the differences between children and what works for each one.

I also really appreciate everyone not taking offense to my question, or fussing at me for being completely ignorant about it all. :D

 

Oh, and that's true about the comparison between that and homeschooling - I had never thought of that! And you know, it's crazy how no matter what, people will give others grief about what they choose. I don't understand Mommy Wars at all...

[freesia]

I did realize as I was reading through that I didn't really specify what I meant by self soothing - I was thinking like if they wake up during the night, getting themselves back to sleep without nursing or having mom comfort them, etc.

I hope no one felt like I was saying I doubt their kids' independence. I agree that kids want to be independent. :) I also think that it looks like everything comes down to what I've always thought regarding other things - kids are people, and they do what they want to do when they want to do it. (I often say stuff like this when people try to tell others how incredibly easy girls are and how boys are just awful... ;) )

Anyway, just to specify in the OP, I was thinking about more of the baby/toddler stage.

I also didn't specify what type of tantrum, which also explains why what I pictured when someone said they nursed a toddler having a tantrum had me confused. :) For me, a tantrum is screaming/laying down on the floor (well, for Pink, technically...not me! ) and the whole nine yards. I've always just picked her up and put her on her bed for it, and told her she can come out when she's done. (Half the time she decides to lay down or play instead, the other half she stops within 30 seconds of me leaving her there and comes out. ) But I think that a lot of tantrums aren't quite so...tantrum-y. So that explains my confusion over that, I think, as well as the differences between children and what works for each one.

I also really appreciate everyone not taking offense to my question, or fussing at me for being completely ignorant about it all. :D

 

Oh, and that's true about the comparison between that and homeschooling - I had never thought of that! And you know, it's crazy how no matter what, people will give others grief about what they choose. I don't understand Mommy Wars at all...

 

Thanks for clarifying. Yes, mine all figured out away to get back to sleep without nursing.

 

With regard to tantrums, I think there are many kinds. I don't think I'd have been able to make one of mine nurse while they were in the middle of a willfull, on the floor tantrum. I might suggest it but it was still the toddlers choice to nurse or not. Most of the folks I know who soothe w/ nursing are intune to the behaviors that lead to a tantrum and circumvent the tantrum with the nursing iykwim. In that case it is not giving attention to the tantrum, it is preventing the tantrum. In anycase, it is not giving in to the demand of the toddler and, if nursing is freely available at any time,it's not giving special attention bc of a tantrum, either. So, it doesn't really reinforce the tantrum, it just helps teach that other people are there to help us when we feel overwhelmed.

 

But, I have been known to pick a 2 1/2 year old tantrumer and put him/her on the bed, too. As someone else said, ap is just parenting, not a set of rules. It's about trying to be in tune to what your child needs most at that moment. And, actually, I know cio parents who do just that, too.:001_smile:

[ktgrok]

Thanks everyone! (More replies are, of course, still great. :) )

I did realize as I was reading through that I didn't really specify what I meant by self soothing - I was thinking like if they wake up during the night, getting themselves back to sleep without nursing or having mom comfort them, etc.

 

Well, lets explore the idea that babies that are comforted at night won't learn to self soothe. What would that look like, taken to its conclusion? Do we REALLY think that teen boys would be unable to sleep through the night without nursing, if mom doesn't force them to nightwean? Of course not. Do we REALLY think they will go off to college unable to sleep at night wtihout someone cuddling them? No, again, of course not. They will eventually sleep through the night on their own. It will just be later than if you forced it. So my son, and AWFUL sleeper as a newborn, needed help sleeping until he was about 3 years old. That's years longer than if I had forced him to sleep, or to "self soothe". But you know what? It's still only 3 years out of a lifetime. What does it hurt to let them go that long, and what is gained by forcing it a few years earlier? It goes by SO fast. When they are older and don't want your opinion or your hugs or whatever you will miss those nights when they fell asleep in your arms.

[ktgrok]

Thanks for clarifying. Yes, mine all figured out away to get back to sleep without nursing.

 

With regard to tantrums, I think there are many kinds. I don't think I'd have been able to make one of mine nurse while they were in the middle of a willfull, on the floor tantrum. I might suggest it but it was still the toddlers choice to nurse or not. Most of the folks I know who soothe w/ nursing are intune to the behaviors that lead to a tantrum and circumvent the tantrum with the nursing iykwim. In that case it is not giving attention to the tantrum, it is preventing the tantrum. In anycase, it is not giving in to the demand of the toddler and, if nursing is freely available at any time,it's not giving special attention bc of a tantrum, either. So, it doesn't really reinforce the tantrum, it just helps teach that other people are there to help us when we feel overwhelmed.

 

But, I have been known to pick a 2 1/2 year old tantrumer and put him/her on the bed, too. As someone else said, ap is just parenting, not a set of rules. It's about trying to be in tune to what your child needs most at that moment. And, actually, I know cio parents who do just that, too.:001_smile:

 

Yup, a baby/toddler crying because they don't even know what they want, because they are tired and just OVER it, I will attempt to nurse, to get them to calm down long enough to think again. A kid tantrumming because I won't let them do something silly and dangerous, but is otherwise fine, gets ignored or put on her bed. Now she is really good about going to her room on her own when she gets upset. My aspie needed to nurse more when he was upset, he needed to reconnect.

[PeacefulChaos]

Well, lets explore the idea that babies that are comforted at night won't learn to self soothe. What would that look like, taken to its conclusion? Do we REALLY think that teen boys would be unable to sleep through the night without nursing, if mom doesn't force them to nightwean? Of course not. Do we REALLY think they will go off to college unable to sleep at night wtihout someone cuddling them? No, again, of course not. They will eventually sleep through the night on their own. It will just be later than if you forced it. So my son, and AWFUL sleeper as a newborn, needed help sleeping until he was about 3 years old. That's years longer than if I had forced him to sleep, or to "self soothe". But you know what? It's still only 3 years out of a lifetime. What does it hurt to let them go that long, and what is gained by forcing it a few years earlier? It goes by SO fast. When they are older and don't want your opinion or your hugs or whatever you will miss those nights when they fell asleep in your arms.

 

That's very true! Though 3 years, when you're in it, probably seems like forever... ;)

 

Oh, and I just wanted to come back and say that I didn't want anyone to feel like I was questioning the ability of these kids to grow up just like everyone else. I really was only referring to the baby/young toddler years. :) And mainly, the sleeping. :lol: Because I was voted 'Most likely to sleep through life' as a senior in high school, and I do love my sleeping... :lol: :D

Edited June 3, 2012 by PeacefulChaos

[catz]

No - I honestly think this leads to more independent and confident kids in the long run. My daughter and I started out very shy, and she got the AP parenting and at 8 she is just a fire cracker. I don't worry about her in groups of older kids at all. It took me years and years to get over my shyness and confidence issues. My 11 year old has always had a very strong sense of self and independence. They develop that independance when they're ready and not on an adult time table. I'm not 100% AP by the books, but I lean that way and I don't think it's for everyone. But if you have a very whiny, clingy child that is wanting more more more, I think you probably have some changes to make so that child will feel like they're getting enough.

[Embassy]

Basically, if you meet every need when they are little they will be more likely to be independent when older. I nursed and didn't require my kids to self-soothe. I actually wanted them to be dependent on me rather than a piece of silicone or a thumb. They grew and slept through the night without my help. I still come lay next to my 4 year old when she wakes at night or take her into my bed if I'm already sleeping. I treated cries as communication and not as anything manipulative. Babies are supposed to need their mother. From an educational standpoint responding to cries as communication is an excellent thing to do for cognitive skills and language development.

 

My kids are great sleepers now that they are older. They are well-adjusted and often receive positive comments from others.

 

I don't know if I ever nursed during a tantrum. I don't think my child would have wanted to nurse during a tantrum. If the tantrum is because the child is tired or hungry then nursing makes sense.

[freesia]

That's very true! Though 3 years, when you're in it, probably seems like forever... ;)

 

Oh, and I just wanted to come back and say that I didn't want anyone to feel like I was questioning the ability of these kids to grow up just like everyone else. I really was only referring to the baby/young toddler years. :) And mainly, the sleeping. :lol: Because I was voted 'Most likely to sleep through life' as a senior in high school, and I do love my sleeping... :lol: :D

The thing is, that you can be AP and co-sleep and still night wean. This usually leads to the child sleeping through the night. I seriously get very depressed when I don't get enough sleep. It is not pretty. That is why I night weaned my first (but still co-slept)and looked for gentle ways to encourage sleeping through the night with the others.

[stripe]

My view of the universe & child development:

Thanks, Eliana. Beautifully put and insightful as always.

 

I remember watching an episode of "Shalom in the Home" where Shmuley Boteach was very opposed to co-sleeping because he felt the marriage comes first. I found it very strange.

 

In my husband's culture, people sometimes ignore fussy toddlers/kids because they find them annoying, frankly, but screaming babies must be soothed because they will drive everyone in the house crazy -- especially at night! No one has a whole extra room (or wing of the house) in which to stick a baby. I also think it helps to have more than one adult who can take care of a kid/baby. It's so much work for a mother to raise a baby on her own most of the day. Sometimes what we really need is a nice aunt or grandma to step in and diffuse difficult situations or give the mother a break.

[amy g.]

None of my babies learned to soothe themselves. I'm the most extreme parent ever. I wouldn't do bottles or pacifiers or cribs or infant seats.

 

I just held them and nursed them and slept with them, talked to them, sang to them, bathed with them. The only time we did not have body contact, was when someone else was holding them.

 

The only reason I don't still have children sleeping in my bed is because they have older siblings to sleep with. My son is the only one who sleeps alone, but he slept with my oldest until my 5 year old came along, and kicked him out of her bed. They all have their own rooms and beds, but prefer to be together.

 

My own PERSONAL OPINION is that my excessive nurturing has helped them become exceptionally mature and self confident young people. The clinging, insecure children I know are that way because they have never really had their needs met.

 

My children were allowed to be infants, and now they are so over that. They are ready to be treated like adults.....especially the 5 year old.

 

They did great alone when Dh and I were in Barcelona last month.

 

If Miss Good gets accepted to a festival that she applied for in Austin, I'll really let her and my son drive up there and stay unattended 8 weekends in a row? Why? Because they are that competent and trustworthy.

 

I won't lie. The baby years are hard when you never get a break, but I wouldn't trade it for the world.

[ktgrok]

That's very true! Though 3 years, when you're in it, probably seems like forever... ;)

 

 

 

It does, sometimes, but it is SO much easier with the second, because by then you know that they will grow up and stop needing you so much. I probably COULD manage to wean my 2 year old now, with some tears, but one reason I don't is I know that it won't be long before she doesn't want to nurse anymore, and why rush that?

 

Also, I bet the time spent letting a child CIO seems to take forever too...I woujld think.

[LaxMom]

In my observations w/4 children of my own, and having discussions w/other parents is this: a needy child will be needy regardless and an independent child will be so regardless as well. I do not think that AP "makes" a child needy/clingy, or otherwise unable to soothe themselves. Babies are born with different temperaments, and as a parent, I do not "parent" a specific way. I let my child lead how they need to be parented. Just as I choose different curriculum for different learning styles, I choose different parenting styles for different temperaments.

 

<snip>

 

I think people should stop labeling parenting styles, or identifying w/a particular style, or trying to fit into a parenting style, and instead, should just follow their own instincts and the needs of the baby. If a baby is crying, (s)he needs something. Responding to those needs ~however much~ does not create a needy child, on the contrary, that child feels loved and secure and, IMO, is stronger and LESS likely to be needy in the future.

Well...

 

I think any philosophy can be carried too far. I won't say that I haven't seen AP parents who have such a lack of boundaries for their children in every possible way that it makes me crazy because unfortunately I have.

 

On the other hand, I don't think co-sleeping and EBF are the cause of lack of boundaries by any means. You can absolutely have appropriate boundaries within those practices. We practiced child-led weaning (they didn't go that long term though) and co-slept long term (I eased them out before they turned 6 yo) and especially as the kids got older, we established a lot of clear boundaries about the family bed and what was acceptable and what was not.

 

As for tantrums, I think it depends a lot on the child. I used to try and soothe mine through them but they had weaned themselves by the age at which tantrums are bad. And soothing them did not help end a single tantrum, so we did have to take another tactic. For me, this is where philosophy meets practice - you have to be willing to change course if it's not working, even if you think one method is right.

 

I agree with these. I wouldn't consider us "AP" parents, though many of the practices worked with one or all of the children, in various situations. We're more "matter of fact" parents. I've never nursed anyone through a tantrum. That sounds like a rather dangerous proposition, offering my flesh to an out of control, toothy, gasping person. :eek: On the other hand, none of mine have really been comfort nursers, so that may be why I have trouble imagining it.

 

I generally avoid labels, or a purist view of anything. And, through experience, I generally avoid those who embrace purist viewpoints. I've found them to be very pushy and condescending, and more interested in what I've come to call "name brand parenting" than what actually works for any parent-child combination.

[PeacefulChaos]

It does, sometimes, but it is SO much easier with the second, because by then you know that they will grow up and stop needing you so much. I probably COULD manage to wean my 2 year old now, with some tears, but one reason I don't is I know that it won't be long before she doesn't want to nurse anymore, and why rush that?

 

Also, I bet the time spent letting a child CIO seems to take forever too...I woujld think.

 

I wouldn't know. :) But you're probably right.

Pretty much anything that would require a loss of sleep would seem like forever, I think... :D :lol:

[AdventureMoms]

My oldest co-slept and was EBF, and is self-weaning currently (so, yes, at 4yo she still nurses when she wants to). Someone always lays with her until she falls asleep, and if she wakes in the night one of us will go lay with her (or she can come in with us). My sons were not breastfed for very long (alas!) and sleep in cribs because they prefer it. I'd love it if they'd sleep with us! But they're not interested, lol. However, when they tantrum we don't ignore them or stick them in another room. When a pre-verbal 18 month old throws a tantrum it's because they don't know a better way to deal with their emotions. Often they are frustrated because they can't communicate what they want or can't understand why they can't have what they want.

 

I don't get the self-soothing concept, especially for very young children. I soothe my kids when they are sick or scared or frustrated or whatever. That's my job, a part of how I parent them. I don't have a problem with them coming to me when they are scared or hurt or upset, really ever. Honestly I hope I have the kind of relationship where they call me when they are upset even as adults.

 

The 4yo seems independent in an age appropriate way. She will go to friends houses without me, kicks me out of the house when the sitter comes, will stay in gymnastics class if I drop her off. Sure she also insists that someone accompany her to the bathroom which is a bit annoying, but she's 4. About 5 minutes ago it seems she was a helpless newborn. In about 15 minutes more I think she'll be off to college, and I'm sure she'll be able to sleep by herself there, and probably she'll be able to walk to the bathroom alone too. Maybe there are only monsters in my house.

 

The 18mo twins are a bit too independent for my taste, the way they run off at the drop of a hat! But yes, if they are hurt they come to me. They are babies still! If they get mad because I took away the stick they hit sister with, they might throw a tantrum. That's ok, but I don't stick them in isolation because their coping skills are still undeveloped. They'll figure out better ways to deal with stuff as they learn how to talk and think and generally grow up.

[Runningmom80]

I agree with these. I wouldn't consider us "AP" parents, though many of the practices worked with one or all of the children, in various situations. We're more "matter of fact" parents. I've never nursed anyone through a tantrum. That sounds like a rather dangerous proposition, offering my flesh to an out of control, toothy, gasping person. :eek: On the other hand, none of mine have really been comfort nursers, so that may be why I have trouble imagining it.

 

I generally avoid labels, or a purist view of anything. And, through experience, I generally avoid those who embrace purist viewpoints. I've found them to be very pushy and condescending, and more interested in what I've come to call "name brand parenting" than what actually works for any parent-child combination.

 

 

:iagree: I totally agree. I don't like labeling or parenting "styles." It sort of cheapens the role, and work of motherhood in my mind. Kids, and parents are so individual.

[AdventureMoms]

That's very true! Though 3 years, when you're in it, probably seems like forever... ;)

 

Oh, and I just wanted to come back and say that I didn't want anyone to feel like I was questioning the ability of these kids to grow up just like everyone else. I really was only referring to the baby/young toddler years. :) And mainly, the sleeping. :lol: Because I was voted 'Most likely to sleep through life' as a senior in high school, and I do love my sleeping... :lol: :D

 

Lol, my DW is also a sleep-lover. That's why we cosleep with DD! We all sleep better that way. I wish the boys would sleep with us so we don't have to get up and deal with them at night, it is much more exhausting to me than caring for the child in my own bed. Some folks find it harder though, and that's a different story, but for us it works.

[Walking-Iris]

I don't think 3 years feels like forever. When I was pregnant with my first, my midwives (I saw three at a birthing center and they all took it in turns to be a part of visits so mothers would be comfortable with who was on call) basically mentored me in breastfeeding and cosleeping and AP parenting.

 

I've always coslept and EBF (no bottles or pacifiers) and child-led weaned. My oldest is 9 and he nursed until he was about 3 (clarifier---he nursed at that age maybe once or twice a day). Then I realized one day we had gone a week without nursing and so on and then he was weaned. He coslept until he was 4. Another disclaimer: I personally don't introduce the idea of separate beds until they are 3-4 years old. I had zero trouble getting him into his own bed. Weaning from cosleeping took about a month. He's very rarely come into our bed since.

 

My nearly 5 year old nursed until 2.5. Same story as above more or less. He's still transitioning to his new room. I never make a big deal about any of it. They are welcome to sleep with us or not. IMO if a parent pushes and feels any resentment then it's going to cause a longer transition from cosleeping.

 

My nearly 2 year old still nurses throughout the day and cosleeps.

 

All my kids soothed themselves to sleep. I think that my close presence when they awakened comforted them. I imagine that if they had to fully awake and really start crying to get my attention and then wait for me to drag myself to their room and then had to wait for me to get a bottle from the kitchen etc etc then that would be a lot less sleep for everyone. Three babies and I have very rarely had to actually get out of bed to attend to an infant's needs. Sit up to change a dipe or deal with the occasional illness maybe. My kids have also rarely had to resort to full scale crying either unless something was sincerely wrong---illness, injury etc.

 

And as far as the toddler stage. They went to sleep when they were sleepy. We go to bed, read, talk, nurse if they still are, and then 9 times out of 10 they roll around, try to find a comfortable spot, stare at the walls, eventually fall asleep. I don't believe the definition of self soothing means you have to be left alone and lonely when you need and desire human contact the most. I don't think you can spoil someone as far as sleep is concerned. People fall asleep when they are sleepy, and when they're young and most vulnerable they feel safest near their parents. And then as they grow and mature their needs change and they naturally move away from the parents.

 

It's a pattern seen in nearly all mammals. I mean imagine a kangaroo suddenly deciding to leave her baby all alone by a separate tree at night. It would go against all her instincts as a mother. Same with any other mammalian mother or infant. Kittens and puppies meow and whine at night when they are first separated from their parents and most decent pet owners will keep them near at first until they feel safer. Humans after all are mammals. We don't experience the same threats and we're smart enough to realize it...as adults. But babies and young children aren't mature enough to realize it yet. They are still working on the same instincts that infants have had since the beginning of time. We adults have been able to override our instincts to a degree because we know the crib in the nursery is safe and we have a monitor by the bed. But I don't think it fair to expect an infant to override their instincts by CIO or any other classical conditioning methods. I also have chosen to embrace natural mammalian motherhood instead of modern artificial means.

[Bluegoat]

To me thinking a baby will learn to always be dependent from sleeping with parents is a bit like thinking if you give them breast-milk or formula they will never learn to eat solid food. All things come in their own time. Wee babies are built to sleep next to an adult - it's how they regulate their breathing, sleep cycles, and temperature. For a longer amount of time it allows them to nurse as they need to and provides emotional security. In due time they become independent.

[Walking-Iris]

To me thinking a baby will learn to always be dependent from sleeping with parents is a bit like thinking if you give them breast-milk or formula they will never learn to eat solid food. All things come in their own time. Wee babies are built to sleep next to an adult - it's how they regulate their breathing, sleep cycles, and temperature. For a longer amount of time it allows them to nurse as they need to and provides emotional security. In due time they become independent.

 

:iagree: This.

[chepyl]

Another thought, my kids are good sleepers. But since we coslept and nursed, they rarely axtually woke up fully at night. In their sleep they would wiggle and fuss a bit, I would immediately feed them and they stayed asleep unless they had a really bad diaper. I don't know for sure, bit I think this helped to sleep train them. As they needed less to eat, they woke less at night. I eventually moved them to their own beds. For DS it was easy, for DD it was a little harder because she had to sleep in our room, but a few adjustments to Ned location and we were good.