The Unforgivable Sin

[Mergath]

Just to clarify, I'm not a Christian, but one aspect of Christianity I've always found intriguing is the idea of the unforgivable sin. I think I find it so interesting because I so rarely hear it mentioned, but I'd think it would be a big deal.

 

If you're a Christian, do you believe in the idea of an unforgivable sin? And what do you think constitutes an unforgivable sin?

[Jean in Newcastle]

My understanding is that the unforgivable sin is to reject the convicting ministry of the Holy Spirit. In other words, you are saying "no" to salvation through belief in what Jesus Christ did on the cross. That is unforgivable because forgiveness comes through accepting that and saying "yes". So it isn't doing something that people think of as particularly heinous.

[Forget-Me-Not]

Yes, in the LDS faith we believe that denial of the Holy Ghost is the unforgivable sin as well. But we believe that to deny you have to have received a sure witness, and thus we believe that there are very, very few who are capable of sinning to that extent.

[Mergath]

My understanding is that the unforgivable sin is to reject the convicting ministry of the Holy Spirit. In other words, you are saying "no" to salvation through belief in what Jesus Christ did on the cross. That is unforgivable because forgiveness comes through accepting that and saying "yes". So it isn't doing something that people think of as particularly heinous.

 

I guess what's always confused me about the concept is that, can a person commit this sin while they're still alive? I understand that Christians believe (to simplify) if you die unsaved you go to hell. Do they also believe a person can reject this midlife and be condemned to hell before death?

 

I hope that made sense, lol.

[milovany]

Mergath, the unforgivable sin is named in Scripture: blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. From what I understand, blasphemy is "evil and reproachful language" directed at God and His Kingdom; not just not believing in God, but despising God and all that He is, does and offers and living like it / saying so.

 

There is some disagreement on whether or not this can be repented of. My (uneducated) thought is that if a person dies in this belief, there will be no forgiveness as there was no repentance from it (and if a soul despises God, his choice has been made clear -- he wants nothing to do with God and God honors that). However if a person believes this way, stating so / living like it, but then turns to God and repents, there can be forgiveness.

[Little Nyssa]

My understanding is the same as Milovany's.

[Mergath]

Interesting. My dh and I were having a drawn out theological discussion earlier about this (and other things) and I was curious to see what the hive thinks about it, given the rather, er, diverse beliefs, even among Christians. ;)

 

Thanks for the responses. I'd love to hear what other people think, too.

[CupOCoffee]

My understanding of the unforgivable sin also matches Milovany...

 

I am interested in the differing opinions of this well though, and shall be listening.

 

~coffee~

 

P.S.: have I ever mentioned that I am so pleased to find a site where so many differing religious beliefs can (mostly) get along so well? I am sure there have been "moments" but from what I have seen here, I really do LOVE it and have learned much about some differing beliefs that I never knew before.

[Donna]

Mergath, the unforgivable sin is named in Scripture: blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. From what I understand, blasphemy is "evil and reproachful language" directed at God and His Kingdom; not just not believing in God, but despising God and all that He is, does and offers and living like it / saying so.

 

There is some disagreement on whether or not this can be repented of. My (uneducated) thought is that if a person dies in this belief, there will be no forgiveness as there was no repentance from it (and if a soul despises God, his choice has been made clear -- he wants nothing to do with God and God honors that). However if a person believes this way, stating so / living like it, but then turns to God and repents, there can be forgiveness.

 

:iagree:

[Jean in Newcastle]

I guess what's always confused me about the concept is that, can a person commit this sin while they're still alive? I understand that Christians believe (to simplify) if you die unsaved you go to hell. Do they also believe a person can reject this midlife and be condemned to hell before death?

 

I hope that made sense, lol.

 

Yes that makes sense. And yes, in my view (which defines what blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is differently than the Eastern Orthodox view and some others), yes, someone can commit this sin while they are still alive. I doubt that anyone other than God would know if that is the case, though. As long as someone is alive, they do have a chance to repent and to change their mind about the gospel.

 

The "how" is by hardening your heart. If you remember the Moses story, Pharoah kept hardening his heart against God. Each time he did so, the

harder it became and the more severe the plague until the firstborn sons were killed. Then it did seem like God finally broke through to Pharoah and he listened and let the people go. If you remember the story though, that softening was very shortlived before it hardened again and he sent the Egyptian army after them. At this point he and his army were wiped out in the Red Sea and there were no more chances. (As an aside, it talks about God hardening Pharoah's heart with the ultimate purpose in mind of showing His might and rescuing the Israelites but I believe that Pharoah gave Him his full cooperation in doing so).

 

I don't know if you want this much detail in an answer but just in case, here is a passage of the Bible which speaks to what I'm talking about. The bolding is mine.:

 

John 12:35 - 43 So Jesus said to them, “ For a little while longer the Light is among you. Walk while you have the Light, so that darkness will not overtake you; he who walks in the darkness does not know where he goes. While you have the Light, believe in the Light, so that you may become sons of Light.â€

These things Jesus spoke, and He went away and hid Himself from them. But though He had performed so many signs before them, yet they were not believing in Him.

 

This was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet which he spoke: “ Lord, who has believed our report? And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?†For this reason they could not believe, for Isaiah said again, “ He has blinded their eyes and He hardened their heart, so that they would not see with their eyes and perceive with their heart, and be converted and I heal them.†These things Isaiah said because he saw His glory, and he spoke of Him.

 

Nevertheless many even of the rulers believed in Him, but because of the Pharisees they were not confessing Him, for fear that they would be put out of the synagogue; for they loved the approval of men rather than the approval of God."

 

So for those who let God harden their heart, they did not respond to all of Jesus' words and miracles. But those that did not (like Nicodemus and a few others), did believe even if they did not have boldness at that time.

[Pamela H in Texas]

From Insight on the Scriptures:

Jesus told Pharisees of his day that if they were blind, they would have no sin, evidently meaning that their sins could be forgiven by God on the basis of their ignorance; however, because they denied being in ignorance, ‘their sin remained.’ (Joh 9:39-41) Jesus said they had “no excuse for their sin” because they were witnesses of the powerful words and works proceeding from him as the result of God’s spirit on him. (Joh 15:22-24; Lu 4:18) Those who, either in word or by their course of action, willfully and knowingly blasphemed God’s spirit thus manifested would be “guilty of everlasting sin,” with no forgiveness possible. (Mt 12:31, 32; Mr 3:28-30; compare Joh 15:26; 16:7, 8.) This could be the case with some who came to be Christians and then deliberately turned from God’s pure worship. Hebrews 10:26, 27 states that “if we practice sin willfully after having received the accurate knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice for sins left, but there is a certain fearful expectation of judgment and there is a fiery jealousy that is going to consume those in opposition.”

 

Like LemonPie (yummm...lol) said, a lot of people (especially in the past) could not do this. They simply didn't have a chance to learn about God, his Kingdom, his King, etc in order to turn away from it. Our (Jehovah Witness) belief, based on scripture, is that they will get the opportunity, via resurrection, to choose God or not. Simply dying without having heard will not cause one to be cut off forever.

 

God is the only one able to truly know the heart of each and every one of us.

Edited May 6, 2012 by 2J5M9K

[Parrothead]

The unforgivable sin is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. It can be forgiven if one repents (and partakes of the Sacrament of Reconciliation). But by the very nature of this sin one who does not repent cannot be forgiven simply because he/she does not want to be forgiven.

[Kathleen in VA]

My understanding is that the unforgivable sin is to reject the convicting ministry of the Holy Spirit. In other words, you are saying "no" to salvation through belief in what Jesus Christ did on the cross. That is unforgivable because forgiveness comes through accepting that and saying "yes". So it isn't doing something that people think of as particularly heinous.

 

:iagree:My pastor has always said the unforgivable sin is unbelief.

[MissKNG]

I like how it's explained here:

 

The unpardonable sin is a sin that must be progressed into; it is not a sin that can be committed by just anybody at the snap of his or her finger. It starts with resisting the Holy Spirit, and turns into a rejection against Him; the result is a final rejection of the Holy Spirit in that person's life, resulting in blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.

 

Blasphemy is a sin which is a sin that meant from the heart (Mark 7:21-23), and is committed when a person(s) speaks evil against somebody, before other people; therefore it is dangerous (not necessarily unpardonable, but dangerous) to speak out to prevent the work of the Lord from being done, such as trying to shut down a ministry which God is moving in, convince people to walk away from Jesus, or prevent them from coming to Jesus.

 

It is a sin that is committed naturally, flows out freely, and comes from deep within the heart (1 Samuel 16:7, Mark 7:21-23, Luke 6:45); it is not simply some mistaken words spoken, but it is a sin that comes from a heart that is deeply rooted with evil and rejection against the Holy Spirit (Matthew 12:34, Mark 7:21-23, Luke 6:45).

 

The unpardonable sin is like a final rejection of the Holy Spirit, which results in blasphemy against Him, and it cuts the cord forever from being drawn to Jesus. When a person is in this kind of a mindset, they aren't concerned one bit about what they are doing and have a deep root of evil in their heart (Matthew 12:34). Once a person commits the unpardonable sin, it is impossible for them to change.

 

The reason you can cut off Jesus, and still change, is because the Holy Spirit can lead you back. It is the Holy Spirit who brings a person to Jesus; therefore, when you flat out reject the Holy Spirit, who is left to bring you back, and give you a heart of repentance and concern? If a person cannot realize that they need Jesus, they are hopeless.

[Mommyfaithe]

My understanding is that the unforgivable sin is to reject the convicting ministry of the Holy Spirit. In other words, you are saying "no" to salvation through belief in what Jesus Christ did on the cross. That is unforgivable because forgiveness comes through accepting that and saying "yes". So it isn't doing something that people think of as particularly heinous.

 

:iagree:

This is the one unpardonable sin, to grieve the Holy Spirit.

[OrganicAnn]

I'm always reminded of the story of Faust.

[Kathleen in VA]

As long as there is breath, there is hope. A person can reject Christ up to the last ten seconds of their life and then at the last second, repent and believe. When I think of an someone I know who has rejected the Gospel message all their life and then died, I still do not think "they went to hell for sure." No one knows what goes on in a person's mind and heart right up until their last breath. Only God can know that. I trust that God is a loving, merciful God and that He is also a just, holy God. Whatever eternal end that person has is determined by a God with those attributes. Only God knows where he/she will spend eternity and I trust that He knows enough to make the right decision. I always, in my own heart and mind, hold out hope that they may have repented in their last few moments here on earth, but leave it ultimately to the God of all grace and wisdom.

[goldberry]

I like how it's explained here:

 

The unpardonable sin is a sin that must be progressed into; it is not a sin that can be committed by just anybody at the snap of his or her finger. It starts with resisting the Holy Spirit, and turns into a rejection against Him; the result is a final rejection of the Holy Spirit in that person's life, resulting in blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.

 

Blasphemy is a sin which is a sin that meant from the heart (Mark 7:21-23), and is committed when a person(s) speaks evil against somebody, before other people; therefore it is dangerous (not necessarily unpardonable, but dangerous) to speak out to prevent the work of the Lord from being done, such as trying to shut down a ministry which God is moving in, convince people to walk away from Jesus, or prevent them from coming to Jesus.

 

It is a sin that is committed naturally, flows out freely, and comes from deep within the heart (1 Samuel 16:7, Mark 7:21-23, Luke 6:45); it is not simply some mistaken words spoken, but it is a sin that comes from a heart that is deeply rooted with evil and rejection against the Holy Spirit (Matthew 12:34, Mark 7:21-23, Luke 6:45).

 

The unpardonable sin is like a final rejection of the Holy Spirit, which results in blasphemy against Him, and it cuts the cord forever from being drawn to Jesus. When a person is in this kind of a mindset, they aren't concerned one bit about what they are doing and have a deep root of evil in their heart (Matthew 12:34).

 

That's a nice explanation. When I was young, I used to be afraid I might commit the unforgivable sin. I finally understood that no one commits the unforgivable sin ACCIDENTALLY. Even if you commit a sin on purpose, if you still feel repentence and desire forgiveness, it is an indication that you have not committed the unforgivable sin. Such a person would not desire forgiveness, but has rejected it.

 

There are some Biblical examples of hideous sins that were committed purposefully, and yet still were forgiven. (Manasseh comes to mind, although he still turned back to badness even after that.)

 

Wanted to clarify my take on unbelief though, I don't believe you can fully reject and turn against something you never believed in the first place. Hence, in most cases, I don't think that simple unbelievers CAN commit the unforgivable sin.

Edited May 6, 2012 by coloradoperkins

[Heather in Neverland]

This gives a biblically accurate answer: http://www.gotquestions.org/unpardonable-sin.html

[Kathleen in VA]

This gives a biblically accurate answer: http://www.gotquestions.org/unpardonable-sin.html

 

That's excellent, Heather - thanks for finding that and posting it.

[usetoschool]

I love that so many diverse faiths are answering in pretty much the same way and I learn so much here from various denominations. From an LDS perspective I would add that it is more than just not believing, but receiving a sure witness from the Holy Ghost and then actively rejecting and fighting against that witness. It is a sin that not many people will be held accountable for.

 

This from Heather's link: Many people fear they have committed some sin that God cannot or will not forgive, and they feel there is no hope for them, no matter what they do. Satan would like nothing better than to keep us laboring under this misconception.

 

And this from LDS General Conference talk given in April: I do not know who in this vast audience today may need to hear the message of forgiveness inherent in this parable, but however late you think you are, however many chances you think you have missed, however many mistakes you feel you have made or talents you think you don’t have, or however far from home and family and God you feel you have traveled, I testify that you have not traveled beyond the reach of divine love. It is not possible for you to sink lower than the infinite light of Christ’s Atonement shines.

Edited May 6, 2012 by jcooperetc

[Moxie]

I understand that Christians believe (to simplify) if you die unsaved you go to hell.

 

I am Catholic and this is not what we believe.

[SJ.]

This is an interesting thread topic. It seems a little contradictory to me that many of the posts say that the unforgivable sin can be forgiven with repentance. If that is the case then it is not an unforgivable sin, right? I would assume that an unforgivable sin could never be forgiven, under any circumstances.

[Halcyon]

I guess what's always confused me about the concept is that, can a person commit this sin while they're still alive? I understand that Christians believe (to simplify) if you die unsaved you go to hell. Do they also believe a person can reject this midlife and be condemned to hell before death?

 

I hope that made sense, lol.

 

I am a Chrisitan, but believe in Universal Salvation. I don't believe in Hell. I don't believe a truly just and good God would ever give up on any of us. I also believe that a Father who loves us, ALL of us, would never allow an evil (such as Hell) to defeat Him, overcome Him, and prevent us from bringing his children back to Him. He is unknowable and all-powerful, and to me that extends beyond the death of the physical body.

Edited May 6, 2012 by Halcyon

[goldberry]

Somewhat surprised that so many believe that the unforgivable sin is continued unbelief.

 

How does that fit in with Hebrews 6:4-6

American Standard Version (ASV)

 

4 For as touching those who were once enlightened and tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit,

5 and tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the age to come,

6 and then fell away, it is impossible to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

 

 

I believe that only someone who either once believed, or received such convincing evidence that could not be denied, can then fall away into such a state that it is impossible to revive them to repentance (hence unforgivable). Once someone reaches that state of total rejection and rebellion, it states specifically that it is IMPOSSIBLE to revive them to repentence. So how could it be continuing unbelief that could be rectified by believing?

 

Also, what about 1 John 5:16

American Standard Version (ASV)

16 If any man see his brother sinning a sin not unto death, he shall ask, and God will give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: not concerning this do I say that he should make request.

 

If that were the case, then this would be saying that we shouldn't pray for those in "continued unbelief". I don't see that as making sense.

[Parrothead]

I am Catholic and this is not what we believe.

Well, technically. The terminology is different. If anyone is interested here is a good article that explains it.

 

I don't want to derail Mergath's thread, so if anyone has a question about Catholics and salvation let's start another thread.

[Candid]

Mergath, the unforgivable sin is named in Scripture: blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. From what I understand, blasphemy is "evil and reproachful language" directed at God and His Kingdom; not just not believing in God, but despising God and all that He is, does and offers and living like it / saying so.

 

There is some disagreement on whether or not this can be repented of. My (uneducated) thought is that if a person dies in this belief, there will be no forgiveness as there was no repentance from it (and if a soul despises God, his choice has been made clear -- he wants nothing to do with God and God honors that). However if a person believes this way, stating so / living like it, but then turns to God and repents, there can be forgiveness.

 

Somewhat surprised that so many believe that the unforgivable sin is continued unbelief.

 

How does that fit in with Hebrews 6:4-6

American Standard Version (ASV)

 

4 For as touching those who were once enlightened and tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit,

5 and tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the age to come,

6 and then fell away, it is impossible to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

 

 

I believe that only someone who either once believed, or received such convincing evidence that could not be denied, can then fall away into such a state that it is impossible to revive them to repentance (hence unforgivable). Once someone reaches that state of total rejection and rebellion, it states specifically that it is IMPOSSIBLE to revive them to repentence. So how could it be continuing unbelief that could be rectified by believing?

 

Also, what about 1 John 5:16

American Standard Version (ASV)

16 If any man see his brother sinning a sin not unto death, he shall ask, and God will give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: not concerning this do I say that he should make request.

 

If that were the case, then this would be saying that we shouldn't pray for those in "continued unbelief". I don't see that as making sense.

 

While I agree with milovaný for the most part, I think I also agree with coloradoperkins. Based on my readings of theological debate this is a difficult statement in the Bible; no one quite agrees on what it means and yet no one quite disagrees. I suspect a lot of people are agreeing for the most part because no one denomination has take a big stand on these verses because of their less than clear nature.

 

If I might offer one overly simplistic view I've heard: in the Bible, the main things are the plain things and the plain things are the main things. While there is no doubt that Christians disagree over many things they often disagree on details (how or when you are baptized not whether you should be baptized for instance). One reason they argue these points is they aren't plain in the Bible. And some points are really, really less than plain, this is one.

 

The candid part of me cynically adds, that she sometimes thinks they spend so much time talking over these less than clear points to avoid the really, really clear ones which strike me as the tough and difficult ones.

[milovany]

This is an interesting thread topic. It seems a little contradictory to me that many of the posts say that the unforgivable sin can be forgiven with repentance. If that is the case then it is not an unforgivable sin, right? I would assume that an unforgivable sin could never be forgiven, under any circumstances.

 

I can see what you're saying, and understand how that can be confusing. Here's my thought on the matter: It's "unforgivable" only because the person choosing to blaspheme the Holy Spirit (and I don't think it's simply unbelief as described by some above) has chosen not to repent. If he dies in that state of unrepentance, the sin has become unforgivable due to his own choice (not God's). On God's part, He is always willing to forgive, and if someone softens his/her heart and turns to him, He will not turn His back on Him (see the Parable of the Prodigal Son).

[SJ.]

I can see what you're saying, and understand how that can be confusing. Here's my thought on the matter: It's "unforgivable" only because the person choosing to blaspheme the Holy Spirit (and I don't think it's simply unbelief as described by some above) has chosen not to repent. If he dies in that state of unrepentance, the sin has become unforgivable due to his own choice (not God's). On God's part, He is always willing to forgive, and if someone softens his/her heart and turns to him, He will not turn His back on Him (see the Parable of the Prodigal Son).

 

I think I see what you are saying. It is only unforgivable when you are still living in that state, once you are repentant you are forgiven. Does this mean all other sins are forgivable without repentance? Murder? Rape?

[Onceuponatime]

I have heard a couple of explanations other than the most common ones::

 

*Suicide is the unforgiveable sin.

 

*Denying or disbelieving the power of God to forgive sins. This is said to be the difference between Peter and Judas who both turned against Jesus. One did not trust that God had the power to forgive him and killed himself, the other went on to be forgiven and lived as a leader in the church.

 

*Calling the things and acts of God "evil" or demonic is blaspheming the Holy spirit, as the Pharisees did to Jesus when he healed and drove out demons.

 

*Calling what is good bad, and what is bad good, and leading others to believe it.

 

Editing to say: I have trouble believing Hell myself. I believe people are responsible for evil and create internal and external "hells." One way to do this is to convince themselves or someone else that there is no hope for them, which goes along with the above.

Edited May 6, 2012 by Onceuponatime

[Joanne]

I am a Chrisitan, but believe in Universal Salvation. I don't believe in Hell. I don't believe a truly just and good God would ever give up on any of us. I also believe that a Father who loves us, ALL of us, would never allow an evil (such as Hell) to defeat Him, overcome Him, and prevent us from bringing his children back to Him. He is unknowable and all-powerful, and to me that extends beyond the death of the physical body.

 

This, only more radical.

 

The idea of unforgivable and a Christian concept of God is an oxymoron to me. I don't *really* believe in "sin" from a traditional Christian perspective, and I certainly don't believe in "unbelief" as being the threshold. If there is a threshold, I'd hope that it would be something more like rape, murder, or sexual crimes against children.

 

I need my God to hate THOSE more than unbelief.

[milovany]

I think I see what you are saying. It is only unforgivable when you are still living in that state, once you are repentant you are forgiven. Does this mean all other sins are forgivable without repentance? Murder? Rape?

 

Hmmmm, no, I couldn't say that either I guess. Thank you for pressing me to think this through, although me thinking it through on my own doesn't always bring the right results. :tongue_smilie:

 

I don't think one can be a murderer, rapist, assaulter of children and be forgiven even if they didn't repent just because they didn't verbally and vehemently rail against God. So maybe "blaspheming the Holy Spirit" isn't just verbal but also in the way someone lives. If someone kills another person, or if someone rapes another person, or if someone assaults children -- would this not also be "evil and reproachful" works toward God (in whose image we are made, from whose hands we are made), as described earlier? And if this person never repents, and dies in that unrepentance, then they have not created a place for themselves where forgiveness comes to them. They were offered it (through conviction of the Holy Spirit), but have already rejected it. Just thinking out loud ....

 

But repentance and turning to God will always bring forgiveness from what I understand. I don't believe the unforgivable sin is simply unbelief because one can believe and still not repent (turn away from sin).

Edited May 7, 2012 by milovaný

[iamrachelle]

Mergath, the unforgivable sin is named in Scripture: blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. From what I understand, blasphemy is "evil and reproachful language" directed at God and His Kingdom; not just not believing in God, but despising God and all that He is, does and offers and living like it / saying so.

 

There is some disagreement on whether or not this can be repented of. My (uneducated) thought is that if a person dies in this belief, there will be no forgiveness as there was no repentance from it (and if a soul despises God, his choice has been made clear -- he wants nothing to do with God and God honors that). However if a person believes this way, stating so / living like it, but then turns to God and repents, there can be forgiveness.

 

Very well said, Milovany. :iagree:

[Trish]

Rejecting God's mercy.

[AuntieM]

This gives a biblically accurate answer: http://www.gotquestions.org/unpardonable-sin.html

 

Thanks, Heather. This excellent, easy to read article sums up what I've been taught on this topic (from a Bible-church background).

 

Candid, I also agree with your observation that sometimes we "major on the minor" issues and forget to live out the most basic tenets of our Christian faith. Thanks for the reminder. :grouphug:

Edited May 7, 2012 by AuntieM
Cited the wrong boardie

[TheHomeScientist]

Some years ago, there was an organized Blasphemy Challenge Day. The organizers asked non-believers to shoot video of themselves blaspheming the holy spirit and post the videos on youtube. There were thousands of respondents, and it was actually pretty entertaining to see how inventive some of them were in coming up with new ways to do it.

[DawnM]

Interesting. I do wish they hadn't used Kenneth Hagan as the Protestant example as I am sure 95% of Protestants do not follow his theology.

 

But I still found it enlightening. I am still not clear on how the sacraments work with salvation or what exactly is a mortal sin.

 

I also think there can be similar issues with Catholics thinking their deeds done outside of church are ok because they are "covered" by baptism or confession.....much like Protestants feel they are "covered" by a personal acceptance of Jesus Christ as their savior.

 

I really am not sure I am articulating well because I really don't want anything to turn into a "we" and "they" conversation because I believe Catholics are indeed Christian and don't want to come across as superior in any way religiously, I am just still not sure I get it.

 

Dawn

 

Well, technically. The terminology is different. If anyone is interested here is a good article that explains it.

 

I don't want to derail Mergath's thread, so if anyone has a question about Catholics and salvation let's start another thread.

Edited May 7, 2012 by DawnM

[dangermom]

From the LDS POV, the rejection of the Holy Ghost is someone saying "God, I understand exactly who you are and what you are doing, and I want no part of it." Most people are never in a position to truly be able to make that choice, which is why we think of it as something extremely rare. But should a person be able to understand who God is and truly want to reject him completely, God will honor that wish. He won't force anyone to go to heaven or to be with him if they don't want to.

 

If you can't say no to God, then free will doesn't mean anything.

 

Therefore I do not believe in universal salvation--because some people (even if only a very, very few) are not going to want it. Will God force them? How would that be heaven?

[Rene']

Somewhat surprised that so many believe that the unforgivable sin is continued unbelief.

 

How does that fit in with Hebrews 6:4-6

American Standard Version (ASV)

 

4 For as touching those who were once enlightened and tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit,

5 and tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the age to come,

6 and then fell away, it is impossible to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

 

 

I believe that only someone who either once believed, or received such convincing evidence that could not be denied, can then fall away into such a state that it is impossible to revive them to repentance (hence unforgivable). Once someone reaches that state of total rejection and rebellion, it states specifically that it is IMPOSSIBLE to revive them to repentence. So how could it be continuing unbelief that could be rectified by believing?

 

What you reference here is different than the "unpardonable sin" that Jesus speaks of in Mark 3:29. Heather's link is exactly correct - in the context of Mark 3 Jesus is performing miracles and the scribes (unbelievers) say he is casting out devils by the prince of devils. Jesus' answer is that a house divided against itself cannot stand - Satan casting out Satan is impossible. According to Jesus, those who say that the work of the Holy Spirit is the work of the devil "hath never forgiveness" - meaning even if they repent they cannot be forgiven.

 

But what you are referencing, Hebrews 6, is talking about believers falling away. If a believer truly falls away they cannot be saved again. Christ died once. He is not going to die again for them.

 

However, the main point of Hebrews 6 is really about "going on unto perfection, and not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and faith toward God."

 

All Christians know people (or know themselves) who keep rededicating themselves to God, keep trying to start fresh, keep thinking they have back-slidden and need to get right with God again. The author is essentially saying "stop getting saved". The point is that you either are saved or you aren't and if you have been you can't be saved again if you lose it. It doesn't say anyone *has* lost it, just that if they do it's impossible to be saved again.

 

The author says in verses 9 and 10: But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister.

 

 

Also, what about 1 John 5:16

American Standard Version (ASV)

16 If any man see his brother sinning a sin not unto death, he shall ask, and God will give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: not concerning this do I say that he should make request.

 

If that were the case, then this would be saying that we shouldn't pray for those in "continued unbelief". I don't see that as making sense.

This is speaking of believers who sin. The "sin unto death" is not an unforgivable sin in the sense of eternal d**nation, but of God not healing one in this life and so because of their sin, they die. That does not mean they have lost their salvation. Sometimes the flesh is killed, to save the spirit.

[Mergath]

But what you are referencing' date=' Hebrews 6, is talking about believers falling away. If a believer truly falls away they cannot be saved again. Christ died once. He is not going to die again for them.

[/quote']

 

That's interesting. I'm not an expert in Christian theology, so I'm having a bit of trouble following everything here, but do most Christians believe that if one is a Christian and converts to a different faith or whatever, then wants to return to Christianity, they have permanently lost their salvation and are ****ed regardless of what they do?

[Jean in Newcastle]

That's interesting. I'm not an expert in Christian theology, so I'm having a bit of trouble following everything here, but do most Christians believe that if one is a Christian and converts to a different faith or whatever, then wants to return to Christianity, they have permanently lost their salvation and are ****ed regardless of what they do?

 

Not if they believe in something called "eternal security" like I do. I believe that salvation is based on God's faithfulness, not on anything that man does. When a person believes that what Jesus Christ did on the cross applies to him or her personally, then God gives them spiritual life. They have a number of other invisible things that happen at that time too. But what happens at salvation is permanent. The person can walk away but is still saved even if they don't acknowledge it because it has to do with a new birth. (An analogy is that you could walk away from your human family but can't be unborn. Like all analogies this is imperfect though.;)) So yes, they can come back. But not all Christian denominations etc. believe in eternal security.

[milovany]

That's interesting. I'm not an expert in Christian theology, so I'm having a bit of trouble following everything here, but do most Christians believe that if one is a Christian and converts to a different faith or whatever, then wants to return to Christianity, they have permanently lost their salvation and are ****ed regardless of what they do?

 

A different belief than what Jean describes: If the person is walking toward salvation (God) but then turns away and stays away not wanting anything to do with this same God, yes, their salvation is in jeopardy (but only God knows, and it's not up to me/us to decide). If this person turns back and pursues salvation (God) again, God will in no way turn his back. He welcomes all who come with open arms, and shows them the way of salvation.

 

Only some Christians believe in "eternal security" also known as "once saved, always saved." It was not a belief in the early church until well into the second millennium, from what I understand, and only in some protestant denominations.

Edited May 8, 2012 by milovaný

[dangermom]

I agree with milovaný--a person can decide to turn away from God and perhaps lose their salvation, but coming back home again is always an option too.

[mommaduck]

A different belief than what Jean describes: If the person is walking toward salvation (God) but then turns away and stays away not wanting anything to do with this same God, yes, their salvation is in jeopardy (but only God knows, and it's not up to me/us to decide). If this person turns back and pursues salvation (God) again, God will in no way turn his back. He welcomes all who come with open arms, and shows them the way of salvation.

 

Only some Christians believe in "eternal security" also known as "once saved, always saved." It was not a belief in the early church until well into the second millennium, from what I understand, and only in some protestant denominations.

:iagree: A study of the history of the belief of "OSAS - Once Saved, Always Saved" is interesting. It's a spin off of the Calvinist view of Predestination (though I know that there are some Baptists that will deny this ;) ), but combined with the Free Will part. Raised Baptist, eventually became Reformed, and converted to Orthodoxy)

[ereks mom]

This gives a biblically accurate answer: http://www.gotquestions.org/unpardonable-sin.html

 

That's excellent, Heather - thanks for finding that and posting it.

 

:iagree:

 

And here is another good source: http://christianity.about.com/od/faqhelpdesk/i/blasphemyagains.htm

[Rene']

That's interesting. I'm not an expert in Christian theology, so I'm having a bit of trouble following everything here, but do most Christians believe that if one is a Christian and converts to a different faith or whatever, then wants to return to Christianity, they have permanently lost their salvation and are ****ed regardless of what they do?

 

Most Christians - no. Most would believe either in eternal security (once saved always saved) or that if you left the faith you could come back.

 

I believe the Bible teaches that if one is a believer in Christ, and then rejects Him after having already believed in Him, then they cannot be saved again. Only God would know a person's heart and true beliefs in this matter.

 

I believe in "security of the believer" - that is, as long as one continues in the faith of Christ, they are saved. Works do not get us saved and they do not keep us saved. They do, however, prove our faith.

[Joanne]

That's interesting. I'm not an expert in Christian theology, so I'm having a bit of trouble following everything here, but do most Christians believe that if one is a Christian and converts to a different faith or whatever, then wants to return to Christianity, they have permanently lost their salvation and are ****ed regardless of what they do?

 

No, it is not a universal Christian doctrine.

[justamouse]

A different belief than what Jean describes: If the person is walking toward salvation (God) but then turns away and stays away not wanting anything to do with this same God, yes, their salvation is in jeopardy (but only God knows, and it's not up to me/us to decide). If this person turns back and pursues salvation (God) again, God will in no way turn his back. He welcomes all who come with open arms, and shows them the way of salvation.

 

Only some Christians believe in "eternal security" also known as "once saved, always saved." It was not a belief in the early church until well into the second millennium, from what I understand, and only in some protestant denominations.

:iagree:

[Greta]

A different belief than what Jean describes: If the person is walking toward salvation (God) but then turns away and stays away not wanting anything to do with this same God, yes, their salvation is in jeopardy (but only God knows, and it's not up to me/us to decide). If this person turns back and pursues salvation (God) again, God will in no way turn his back. He welcomes all who come with open arms, and shows them the way of salvation.

 

I believe this based upon my own personal experience of "coming home". The God that I know is infinite in His capacity for love, forgiveness, and mercy. For that reason, I have wondered if the unforgivable sin is not the one for which God will not forgive us, but the one for which we will not forgive ourselves, the one for which we will not accept His forgiveness. I don't know, and I'm not staking any claim. Just kind of "thinking out loud" here.

[Bluegoat]

Hmmmm, no, I couldn't say that either I guess. Thank you for pressing me to think this through, although me thinking it through on my own doesn't always bring the right results. :tongue_smilie:

 

I don't think one can be a murderer, rapist, assaulter of children and be forgiven even if they didn't repent just because they didn't verbally and vehemently rail against God. So maybe "blaspheming the Holy Spirit" isn't just verbal but also in the way someone lives. If someone kills another person, or if someone rapes another person, or if someone assaults children -- would this not also be "evil and reproachful" works toward God (in whose image we are made, from whose hands we are made), as described earlier? And if this person never repents, and dies in that unrepentance, then they have not created a place for themselves where forgiveness comes to them. They were offered it (through conviction of the Holy Spirit), but have already rejected it. Just thinking out loud ....

 

But repentance and turning to God will always bring forgiveness from what I understand. I don't believe the unforgivable sin is simply unbelief because one can believe and still not repent (turn away from sin).

 

I think that perhaps the difference between heinous acts and blaspheming the Holy Spirit is that in the former case we can still maintain some sort of connection with God, no matter how tarnished or weak it is. The person is, in part, denying truth and life in committing such an act, but usually he is not denying the existence of truth, of right and wrong, totally. Even hardened criminals often have a sense of justice or even a moral code that goes beyond justice. When we blaspheme the Holy Spirit we willfully set out to kill that connection, to deny truth that we know. It is a bit like Satan and the fallen angels - they know who God is, what kind of being he is, they have seen him face to face, and yet they deny and work against that at each moment.

 

I think that if people do that with enough perseverance, they can come to a place where they are actually unable to repent. They have in a real way killed their own souls.

 

I'm not sure it is realistic though to talk about a person who is only guilty of that particular sin but no others. It seems unlikely that such a person would shrink from heinous acts as well.

Edited May 8, 2012 by Bluegoat