CC: What do you think of 'loyalty' to a pastor?

[PeacefulChaos]

I'm just wondering. I've been reading up on it and have seen some articles in both directions: supporting the pastor no matter what, and giving him unquestioned authority; or being supportive but not pledging blind loyalty to him.

Just curious as to what 'normal' people think (as opposed to some of these authors of the articles, who I know nothing about.) :)

[mommaduck]

I'm just wondering. I've been reading up on it and have seen some articles in both directions: supporting the pastor no matter what, and giving him unquestioned authority; or being supportive but not pledging blind loyalty to him.

Just curious as to what 'normal' people think (as opposed to some of these authors of the articles, who I know nothing about.) :)

Every case of the bolded that I've known about or experienced has become a set up for abuse.

[Myeightkiddies]

Every case of the bolded that I've known about or experienced has become a set up for abuse.

 

:iagree:

[sweetbasil]

I'm just wondering. I've been reading up on it and have seen some articles in both directions: supporting the pastor no matter what, and giving him unquestioned authority; :)

 

There's no Biblical justification for the above. A pastor is a man, not God.

[Paintedlady]

I don't give blind loyalty to anybody.

[ezrabean2005]

I am going to lump myself in the normal category and say that loyalty to any man in that fashion is disturbed and "wonky".

 

From my understanding, a Christian has a relationship with Christ and God right? So what is the purpose of the extra man who says to be loyal to him?

[Ellie]

Every case of the bolded that I've known about or experienced has become a set up for abuse.

:iagree:

[DesertDweller]

I can't imagine giving anyone unquestioned authority over my life.

 

A pastor is human and can make mistakes. It would be foolish to yield yourself to someone in such a way, and there is nothing scripturally to support a pastor having that type of roll in someone's life.

[IrresistibleGrace]

I'm just wondering. I've been reading up on it and have seen some articles in both directions: supporting the pastor no matter what, and giving him unquestioned authority; or being supportive but not pledging blind loyalty to him.

Just curious as to what 'normal' people think (as opposed to some of these authors of the articles, who I know nothing about.) :)

 

Not sure if I count as a 'normal person' since I am married to a pastor:001_smile:, but - I believe if you are a member of a church and that church has voted/elected a pastor/shepherd/spiritual leader then you have a covenantal agreement (along with all other members) to support your pastor. That being said, you should have a strong personal knowledge of Scripture and should ALWAYS test (that's not the right word but I can't think of what I'm trying to say) what you are being taught, no matter who it's coming from.

 

As for 'unquestioned authority' - that doesn't sound right to me. He certainly has a measure of authority but not 'unquestioned'. In our denom, he serves on an elder board and is held accountable by the entire team of elders.

 

Don't 'pledge blind loyalty to him'. Get to know him. Listen to his sermons (his heart) and develop a relationship with him and his family. And then be loyal to the spiritual leader God has placed in your life. Trust God, that He knows what He's doing by bringing this man to your church. Don't place your trust only in the man, people will let you down every time. :)

 

Maybe this helps, if you can decipher the rambling!

[JudoMom]

I'm just wondering. I've been reading up on it and have seen some articles in both directions: supporting the pastor no matter what, and giving him unquestioned authority; or being supportive but not pledging blind loyalty to him.

Just curious as to what 'normal' people think (as opposed to some of these authors of the articles, who I know nothing about.) :)

 

Heck no. The only person in my life that gets unquestioned authority is Jesus.

 

I'll let you determine whether or not I fall in the normal camp of people :D.

[battlemaiden]

Not sure if I count as a 'normal person' since I am married to a pastor:001_smile:, but - I believe if you are a member of a church and that church has voted/elected a pastor/shepherd/spiritual leader then you have a covenantal agreement (along with all other members) to support your pastor. That being said, you should have a strong personal knowledge of Scripture and should ALWAYS test (that's not the right word but I can't think of what I'm trying to say) what you are being taught, no matter who it's coming from.

 

As for 'unquestioned authority' - that doesn't sound right to me. He certainly has a measure of authority but not 'unquestioned'. In our denom, he serves on an elder board and is held accountable by the entire team of elders.

 

Don't 'pledge blind loyalty to him'. Get to know him. Listen to his sermons (his heart) and develop a relationship with him and his family. And then be loyal to the spiritual leader God has placed in your life. Trust God, that He knows what He's doing by bringing this man to your church. Don't place your trust only in the man, people will let you down every time. :)

 

Maybe this helps, if you can decipher the rambling!

 

This is a nice balanced answer.

[JudoMom]

.

Edited December 7, 2011 by JudoMom

[gardenmom5]

I consider myself very religious. My first priority is to what is right before God. As long as my leaders teacher and practice those things, I will listen to what they say. If they don't - they have no right of expectation to be listened to.

[Cheryl in NM]

As long as the preacher is following the Bible he deserves my loyalty. The minute he leaves the Bible and tries to assert any authority based on that he's lost my loyalty on that issue. Then I begin more active discernment on everything he says. It is my job to be discerning and make sure that I am following God's word, after all I will be accounting for every word, thought and deed to God.

[Harriet Vane]

I fall in the supportive-but-no-blind-loyalty category. I have personally witnessed the bad effect blind loyalty can have--power like that isn't good for anyone.

[Starr]

I'm married to one so I can tell you the truth. shhh They are not perfect. :lol: Yes, you need support for things to work well but blind loyalty is crazy.

[Parrothead]

I don't give blind loyalty to anybody.

Amen!

[momofkhm]

A pastor is human and can make mistakes.

 

:iagree:

[fairfarmhand]

I'm just wondering. I've been reading up on it and have seen some articles in both directions: supporting the pastor no matter what, and giving him unquestioned authority; or being supportive but not pledging blind loyalty to him.

Just curious as to what 'normal' people think (as opposed to some of these authors of the articles, who I know nothing about.) :)

 

 

I would go so far as to call the bolded a form of IDOLATRY which is expressly forbidden in the Scripture.

[simka2]

Blind loyalty is dangerous. Very, very, dangerous.:glare:

[TravelingChris]

I have never been a member in a church where the pastor demands loyalty like that. In fact, never have any of them asked that of the congregation. The one pastor who was in a church we never joined apparently became too powerful some years after we had left. It led to a church division since those who saw that he was preaching his own standards, not the Bible's, were alarmed and those whose loyalty was to the man and not to the Bible continued to be supportive. We were long gone from that area but that was what I heard from a few people still in the area.

 

The pastors in the last three churches we have joined are humble men who don't demand loyalty.

[shanezomom]

Kara, I'm wondering why there are articles out there supporting complete submission to a fallible human. Do the authors have an agenda? Do they make it clear that we are to test all against Scripture?

[LaxMom]

I can't imagine giving anyone unquestioned authority over my life.

 

A pastor is human and can make mistakes. It would be foolish to yield yourself to someone in such a way, and there is nothing scripturally to support a pastor having that type of roll in someone's life.

 

Indeed.

[simka2]

Kara, I'm wondering why there are articles out there supporting complete submission to a fallible human. Do the authors have an agenda? Do they make it clear that we are to test all against Scripture?

 

There are rather mainstream books out there that put forth blind loyality.

 

This is one of them http://www.amazon.com/Under-Cover-Promise-Protection-Authority/dp/0785269916

[Cindyg]

Absolutely not!

 

I can't even list the heartache that comes from parishoners looking the other way while the "man of God" arrogantly assumes he gets a get-out-of-jail card whenever he needs one. Our loyalty is to God and His Word. If the pastor can't live in the straight and narrow (also in kindness and humbleness), he can try making his living doing roofing in the summertime for all I care. Millstone about his neck, and all that. ("I am of Paul, I am of Apollos...) This is what those verses are talking about. The minister is supposed to lead us to Jesus not distract us away from him.

 

And I love my pastor. But if he strays, either our elders throw him out or my family will leave the church.

 

ETA: I grew up in the pastor-as-ultimate-authority culture. And that pastor never abused his privilege. Still doesn't make it right.

[sassenach]

I'm just wondering. I've been reading up on it and have seen some articles in both directions: supporting the pastor no matter what, and giving him unquestioned authority; or being supportive but not pledging blind loyalty to him.

Just curious as to what 'normal' people think (as opposed to some of these authors of the articles, who I know nothing about.) :)

 

Curious, are you talking about authority in your own personal life or authority over the church? Those are 2 different things. What I mean is, if a pastor makes a church decision (let's say, we're going to make changes to our worship music), first of all that pastor is probably making the decision with the other elder-pastors. Second, that decision may rub up against the preferences of the church members, but unless it is something unbiblical (which would be hard to do, but let's say he's going in the direction of pole dancing worship), he should be supported. You cannot imagine the sheer amount of complaints that pastors have to navigate. They are almost always connected to some church preference that someone has lifted to the level of idolatry.

 

If you are talking on a personal level, I can't say that I have met many pastors that want that type of authority. I would be weary of anyone who pursued it. However, a Christian might need to give permission for someone to speak into their lives on that level. It can be very healthy, but only in the context of true godly counsel. For example, if someone has had the weakness of having girlfriend, after girlfriend, after girlfriend in their lives and they ask for counsel to seek out the root of this pattern, they might give another Christian permission to cut them off, so to speak. Now that person won't have real authority, the guy can date if he wants to, but that type of wise counsel with given authority can be healthy.

 

Make sense?

 

ETA: I don't think I need to explain what unhealthy personal authority looks like. Or, do I?

Edited December 7, 2011 by Shannon831

[JVA]

I don't give blind loyalty to anybody.

 

Except, to Jesus. Men are fallible, He's NOT.

[tex-mex]

Humans are notoriously flawed.

 

God is not -- and it is dangerous to believe man over God.

[QuirkyKapers]

Support, certainly. Blind loyalty? Not happening here.

[Bluegoat]

I think that we are all under authority, including in human relationships. That authority always has boundaries.

 

That goes for pastors and members of the congregation. From the individual Christian's perspective, there are dangers in giving a pastor to much authority or too little.

[elegantlion]

Blind loyalty is dangerous. Very, very, dangerous.:glare:

 

:iagree: Even the pastor can creep in as a wolf in sheep's clothing. It can start as loyalty of good intentions (on the congregations part), and get twisted into an imbalance of power which ends very badly.

 

I had the wool pulled over my eyes once as part of that congregation and ended up feeling used. I won't comment further, but I think there are parts of the church (church as in the business organizational structure) that should remain outside of the pastor's realm.

[Mimm]

I would never ever offering unquestioning support or obedience to a pastor or any other human being.

[TravelingChris]

Simka, I looked at that book you said was advocating that position. Wow, just wow. As I said, I haven't been a member in a church with a pastor who held that position but along with the other situation I relayed which divided the church, I have an even more troubling story to tell if someone thinks pastor should have unquestioned loyalty pledged to them. Someone who was one of a group of chaplains who preached at the base chapel, but in certain regards was the main chaplain of that particular chapel, recently pleaded guilty to horrible offenses and will likely be spending the rest of his life behind bars. He didn't do these things to chapel attenders other than his daughter but I think having loyalty to the man versus to the Bible or to Jesus is very dangerous.

[PeacefulChaos]

Kara, I'm wondering why there are articles out there supporting complete submission to a fallible human. Do the authors have an agenda? Do they make it clear that we are to test all against Scripture?

I think that my google search brought up some very extreme results. I did read one that was saying (it was more of a blog post, actually, from a book, I do believe) that Christians should just follow everything a pastor says. Period. In one, a pastor had his board sign a loyalty pledge to him. In another, the pastor would bring a board member up on stage and give him a bunch of commands, to show how 'loyal' he was to him, boasting that, if the pastor told the man to, he would go jump off a bridge.

Many of the others went more into walking the fine line between being supportive and loyal while at the same time having a mind of our own.

 

Curious, are you talking about authority in your own personal life or authority over the church? Those are 2 different things. What I mean is, if a pastor makes a church decision (let's say, we're going to make changes to our worship music), first of all that pastor is probably making the decision with the other elder-pastors. Second, that decision may rub up against the preferences of the church members, but unless it is something unbiblical (which would be hard to do, but let's say he's going in the direction of pole dancing worship), he should be supported. You cannot imagine the sheer amount of complaints that pastors have to navigate. They are almost always connected to some church preference that someone has lifted to the level of idolatry.

 

If you are talking on a personal level, I can't say that I have met many pastors that want that type of authority. I would be weary of anyone who pursued it. However, a Christian might need to give permission for someone to speak into their lives on that level. It can be very healthy, but only in the context of true godly counsel. For example, if someone has had the weakness of having girlfriend, after girlfriend, after girlfriend in their lives and they ask for counsel to seek out the root of this pattern, they might give another Christian permission to cut them off, so to speak. Now that person won't have real authority, the guy can date if he wants to, but that type of wise counsel with given authority can be healthy.

 

Make sense?

 

ETA: I don't think I need to explain what unhealthy personal authority looks like. Or, do I?

Authority I don't have a problem with - particularly in the church setting, because let's face it, a pastor is not sole authority over the church. He has people he answers to - he is not the 'boss' of the church, so to speak. I actually can't think of an instance where a pastor would have free reign to change anything in the church at all, just by himself.

 

 

I think you need to define the term "loyalty." As you ponder the issue, what does loyalty (or disloyalty) look like?

 

A pastor thinking that just because of his position, people should follow what he says - because he has been given 'favor' or 'authority' from God is what I'm unsure of.

People refusing to think for themselves because they feel that no matter what, a pastor is right - just because he is their pastor - is another thing I'm having a hard time with.

I personally feel as though I pledge no 'loyalty' to any human in that sense. But I'm finding many that feel differently. I just want to be coming at it from the right perspective, I guess. A lot of people will happily quote scriptures that say to 'obey your leaders' and I'm left thinking :confused: - because to me, that just doesn't seem right. To me, I should be able to think for myself and have an opinion that differs from the pastor. To me, it should be okay to disagree, it should be okay to bring up concerns if they are a big deal to the individual, it should be okay to think a little differently. I think that it should be welcomed for people to express their uncertainty with decisions that have been made without their consent or knowledge. I think it should be welcomed for people to step up and try to take responsibility for themselves, their lives, and their salvation. We don't rely on a pastor to get us into heaven...or do some do that? (not here, just general 'some') Do some just accept what the pastor says as the Truth no matter what? Do they even check? Come judgment time, if their life wasn't what it could have been, are they just going to point fingers at the pastor and say 'well, it's his fault - he was my pastor'? (Overdramatic but just saying to try to emphasize my point) To some I feel like it's 'agree with the pastor on everything or leave'. I guess I'm just trying to see if my reluctance to feel a deep seated loyalty to any human is something that I need to get past - or if such blind loyalty is, in fact, not Biblically sound.

ETA: I'm not new to church - not even new to this one. I know our pastor and his family well, and I support them very much. Just wanted to throw that out there - this isn't so much something that I'm personally struggling with on any level other than just what I think. Does that make any sense?? :tongue_smilie:

Edited December 8, 2011 by PeacefulChaos

[Celia]

In the community of believers I belong to, people take turns leading the Sunday meeting and Bible studies. We have no paid ministry, but are united by our common faith, and have no head over us other than God and Christ. I love this. Particularly because it encourages a lot of personal Bible study, but also because there isn't any that are given a special elevated position over others.

 

To the question of loyalty to a pastor, I think it's a crazy idea that anyone should follow another without question. But we should all love and serve one another in humility.

[Lucy in Australia]

We have one pastor and several deacons. Our congragation loves our pastor and is loyal to him. Every so often, he encourages us to check everything we hear from the pulpit against our Bibles. He would be the first to be nervous if we chose to be loyal to him no matter what.