Help me think through this spanking incident, please.

[Colleen]

I'm aware there have been some discussions here of late about spanking, but I've not been able to participate and I have a question along these lines. First, some background. I did sometimes spank my oldest when he was little boy (up until age 3 or so). I found that it was not a particularly useful disciplinary tool, and it just plain didn't feel right to me. By the time I had three little guys to train up, spanking had pretty much dwindled to an almost-never occurence. Among other things, there just hasn't been cause for it. Which is not to say my boys are angels ~ of course not! ~ but they aren't directly disobedient or defiant. As well, I don't feel spanking sends the message I want to send, nor does it truly affect the heart or alter the behavior. When my youngest two choose to misbehave, my approach is to acknowledge that choice and make the consequences known to them. So I would describe my disciplinary-approach as consequence-based, and the older I get, the more I disagree with spanking. But I'm not out-and-out "against" those who sometimes use spanking as a form of discipline.

 

Anyway, that's background. What I want to ask you about is what you consider "too much" as far as spanking is concerned. I know some of you consider spanking, period, to be too much. So I'm really speaking more to those of you who do use spanking as a disciplinary tool. We have these friends ~ dear friends whom I admire and appreciate in so many respects. But. I worry about the manner in which the dad spanks his children. Actually, the word I would use for his method is "whip", not "spank". These friends prefer to have their children sit with them for the duration of the church service ~ and they must be very still, very quiet. This isn't necessarily the norm in our small chapel, btw. We're a very diverse group. What I've always done is this: I have the child with us for the first half of the service and when the sermon begins, he goes to the nursery to play. By age four or five, the child just stays with us the whole time. Our guys have always done well with this approach. They enjoy church and are well-behaved during the service. I don't feel compelled to keep a very small child with me throughout the entire service, though.

 

Anyway, these friends don't utilize the nursery, and if their young children (ages six and under) "misbehave" ~ which is really just being wiggly or quietly whining if admonished ~ they are removed and spanked (whipped). These are wonderful, cheerful, well-behaved children whom I love. The oldest is best friends with my 5 year old. I have to be honest and say that I absolutely cringe at what I consider to be far too stringest discipline on the part of the dad, though. As an example, once my second son was staying with these friends for a few days while Hans I were out of town. He was 9 at the time and at the dinner table, he asked for seconds. The dad told him to leave the table. Huh? My son was mystified. He honestly had no idea what he'd done wrong and when he asked, he was told not to question an authority figure. Very weird.

 

Okay, any-hoo, I've long been uneasy about the whipping approach. Then this past Sunday I witnessed (heard) one of the punishments and I literally thought I was going to throw up. I had left the service because I was feeling unwell, and I was sitting in our fellowship hall talking with another woman. The dad came in with his crying 4 year old daughter. She was crying...how can I explain it?...not the way a child cries who just doesn't want to get in trouble. It was the cry of a child who is truly afraid. I said to the guy, "Please don't do that [referring to the spanking I knew was coming] in here. I don't want to have to listen to that." He went out with her to their car and I thought he was going to adminster the spanking there. I think, though, that he was actually getting whatever it is he uses to spank with, because he then came back in the building. He then took her in the bathroom and I sat there listening to her cry/scream while there was this "crack, crack, crack" whipping noise ~ maybe seven or eight of those. I was shaking, nauseated, sickened. The woman I was talking to (who also disapproves of his disciplinary style) said to me, "Just don't say anything. It won't help. Calm down." When he walked out of the bathroom (after no "heart to heart" talk with the little girl, btw) I said, "Thank you for making us privy to that, you child abuser." Okay, not good wording on my part, I admit.

 

After church, he came up to me and said, "You owe me an apology." "Nope, I don't owe you anything. I don't want to listen to you abuse your children." (Again, I'm not helping with those particular words, I realize that.) He said, "So you want me to obey man instead of God? You need to learn to mind your own business." By the power of the Holy Spirit, I was able to say nothing else to add fuel to the fire. I told him I couldn't say anything right then that would come out politely, and that was it. He said he'd be waiting for my apology.

 

Okay. I've opened this can of worms, and now I'm deciding what to do next. I actually am willing to apologize to him as far as being too aggressive in my words and tone. But I can not leave it at that. When children are baptized at our chapel, the pastor asks the parents some questions, and also asks the congregation if we're willing to help the parents raise up these children, etc. I take these covenants seriously, and I expect others to do the same. To that end, I don't agree that I should merely shut up and "mind my own business" if I am convicted that this man is by no means "obeying God" by whipping a child for wiggling during a church service. I've already talked about this with his brother who also attends our church. The brother and his wife, also good friends of ours, agree with our concerns and have broached the subject with this other guy before. I believe the two brothers are going to talk more about this in the very near future.

 

But...what else? I have felt sick about this for the past two days. I can't forget the sound of that whipping, that child. And I do want to talk to this guy to clear the air as far as the tension that existed between us after church. I don't know how, if at all, I can present my concerns without him simply dismissing me as a busy-body who apparently isn't "obeying God" properly in my own disciplinary approach with my boys.

 

Would you say more? How? I know this is long, but it's weighing heavy on my heart and I appreciate your objective advice. Thanks, friends.

[Caroline]

I was in a similar situation, although not in church. I did not handle it as well as you. I took my children and left. I admire you for speaking up.

[Jan in SC]

Wow! I think you had a great deal of restraint. I'm not sure I wouldn't have gone in there and stopped it. (I may not have been that brave in person, though.)

 

Can the pastor/priest help? Maybe he/she can give words of wisdom to the father. I agree with you. Whether people spank or not, there is a line and it was most certainly crossed.

 

I'm so sorry for you, as it is heartbreaking when people you love have ideas that really make one question the relationship. I would not apologize. It seems like it would lend justification to this abuse.

[shell in SC]

In my mind I would think this was child abuse too. I would consider anyone that carries an item around in their car to use in beating their children an abuser. I feel so bad for those children! It's one thing to do something wrong and be punished so that you can learn appropriate behavior, but to just beat a child b/c they can't sit through a church service is horrible (I can't even sit through a church service!)

 

I will keep these children in my prayers and the father as well.

[Scarlett]

So I would describe my disciplinary-approach as consequence-based, and the older I get, the more I disagree with spanking. But I'm not out-and-out "against" those who sometimes use spanking as a form of discipline..

 

For reference, this exactly sums up how I feel about spanking.

 

As for the situation you described. Oh, my. I felt sick to my stomach just from the description. Wow. I think I would call him or email him and tell him basically what you told us. Yes, you can apologize for as you put it, 'your aggressive words and tone' (although I was cheering through that part) and that may open up dialogue. Tell him that you are not against spanking, but that you think he carries it too far and that it seems more abusive than corrective. Tell him you care for his family and his children and your concern is sincere.

 

Since other people are aware of it, and other men (who he might respect more than you perhaps?) are willing to talk to him about it, that is all I would do for now.

 

If it doesn't change in a timely manner, I would definitely go to the next step. For you that may mean your church leaders, and beyond that the authorities..which I would do anon. I can tell you though that men (and women) who have that attitude that they are doing 'god's will' will not take kindly to being called down on it. Usually. Maybe something or someone can move his heart to see that he is being too harsh.[/color][/font]

[Sue G in PA]

Wow, Colleen. I'm not sure what to tell you to do. So hard. It seems that this family might subscribe to the Pearl method of discipline (To Train Up a Child) which we once thought was "the bomb", but later ditched b/c it heart my heart too much. What this man is doing to his children sounds like abuse to me. Many Christians use the verse "spare the rod, spoil the child" to justify their actions. We did. But, many good Christian friends encouraged me to look at that verse differently and not take it "literally"...meaning don't look at the word "rod" to mean a literal rod or stick. Rod could just be discipline in any form, KWIM? My stomach hurts just reading your post. I truly ache for the children. I'm all for discipline and making a child "tow the line". Your post sounds like this family might be taking it too far. I can only imagine these children are living in constant fear of making the slightest mistake! If that man would have treated my child the way he treated yours while he was visiting, he'd have heard an earful a lot earlier than this.

 

I'm not sure I'd apologize to him. Yes it would be the Christian thing to do, but you spoke truth. Yes, it was hard to hear, but it was truth, IMO. First, can you speak to the pastor about this? Perhaps this man would listen to the pastor? If that doesn't work, I'd pray about whether or not to get the state involved. I'd go there ONLY as a LAST resort b/c once they are involved...it's hard to get them "uninvolved", KWIM? I'm so sorry you had to witness this. I'm not against spanking. We do spank. I don't feel that spanking is abuse, but what you witnessed sure seems to be taking spanking "over the line", KWIM? I'll be praying for you to have wisdom here and for this family as well.

[Eleni]

im in tears just reading that...Im so sorry for those children, and that you had to listen to that happen. That is just wrong what he did...extraordinarily wrong.

[dirty ethel rackham]

Oh, there are so many things wrong with this situation. My hands are shaking after reading this and I want to throw up. Where is whipping one's children Biblical? He has definitely crossed the line from discipline to abuse. Those poor children. Where does the inner discipline come from, when obedience comes from fear? His expectations are not developmentally appropriate. While it is not wrong to expect children to behave, it is wrong to expect that children that young will not make mistakes and it is wrong to punish so severely. My heart goes out to these small children. If I were in this situation, I would have to report him due to the fact that my volunteer positions at church make me a mandatory reporter.

 

I don't know what to tell you about how to deal with this person. Based upon what he said to you, I am pretty sure that there is no way that you will change his mind. Is it possible that a pastor may be able to help this man see the error of his ways? Can you bring this to church leadership?

 

(I, too, have not used spanking successfully. On the rare occasions that I did use it, it always felt wrong. When I saw fear instead of remorse on my child's face, I knew that I had to change. I became determined to find other, less punative ways to discipline.)

 

BTW, Colleen, nice to see you back. Have your tech problems improved?

[Old Dominion Heather]

Boy, I know how you feel.

 

I would possibly either call him or write a letter to him apologizing for your tone, and maybe addressing him in public instead of privately. Then I would express your concerns again about these whippings. I would bring in your churches views on the responsibilities of communicants, etc... and see if he is willing to hear you.

 

I think if that is not effective, you should use the whole Biblical model of confronting a brother... you need to get someone, male if possible in case he is one of the "women don't get an opinion" croud, and not the pastor to go with you and talk to him. Then get the pastor involved. If that isn't effective, he would probably leave the church and at that point, I might call the police. (that part is a tough call though.)

 

I'm sorry. I guess the best thing that you can do is pray for him, that he would be willing to listen to what you have to say.

 

Frankly, he sounds like a family member of mine who is h3ll to live with for his wife and kids. I think the rest of the family has put the fear of God into him though.

[Kelli in TN]

As one who has, long ago, put my own children through similar, I think I would have had to go in the bathroom and stage an intervention. I probably would have tried to get someone to go in with me.

 

It would not help though.The abuse will still go on at home. I don't think it can be stopped. That sounds so pessimistic, but I think it would take an act of God to make that father come to his senses. He really thinks God wants hiim to beat those children and he is so sure of his rightness and his righteousness that no amount of reasoning is going to reach him.

 

Colleen, I have to say your post just stirred up all sorts of pain for me. Pain for the child I was at the hands of someone who "disciplined" that way (until my mom and her lawyer rescued me), pain for the children of mine who lived through my years of being a follower of the proponents of that sort of childrearing.

 

I think I will go hand out hugs to my kids now. They'll think I've flipped my lid. Again!!!

[Scarlett]

I would not apologize. It seems like it would lend justification to this abuse.

 

The main reason I would apologize is that he may not hear her other words if he is hung up on thinking she owes him an apology. She can apologize for her tone and her public admonishment of him and at the same time say, 'but I'm not sorry to be speaking up for your chidren's sake. Please consider that you are taking the spankings too far.' He may hear the important words if she apologizes first.

[Kim in Appalachia]

You were quite brave, I agree. I think you need to go and talk to the man privately (actually, it would be better if it was with your husband). You can apologize if he thought you were being rude. But I would not apologize for confronting him. I would be honest in telling him it seems he has crossed a line, so to speak, in spanking his children. I would not tell him you are uncomfortable with spanking. Keep it about him. If he will not listen you should bring his wife into it, but then you should go to your pastor or elders.

 

This will be hard, I actually can't imagine doing it. :blush:

 

By the way, I am completely comfortable with spanking. There is a difference between spanking and abuse, and those who abuse love to hide behind "religious" excuses for their abuse.

[Michelle in AL]

Oh, the description of that child's situation, makes me sick. I say this coming from an abusive home. Luckily, when I came to adulthood, I learned in nursing school that most abuse victims become abusive unless they learn alternative ways of handling anger/frustration. That never left me and before I had my own children I read many books on parenting and discipline.

 

I would almost consider turning them in to child protective services, although that almost always is ineffective.

 

I would definitely consider talking to your pastor about it, since it's happening on his church grounds. Maybe he can discuss this from a Biblical perspective with the dad. I think the only possible person this guy would respect is a male authority figure (pastor). I don't think anything you said would make a difference.

 

I read that a child should only be spanked across the bottom once. The first spank is for discipline, the rest are often to relieve anger/frustration from the parent.

 

I fully agree with this statement.

 

What I found to be the most effective discipline method for the situation you're describing is to get down to the level of the child, look them directly in the eye while holding their hand and whisper what you want them to do. Making them focus through eye contact, and making them pay attention to your voice by whispering seems to make it much more serious to them.

 

Oh, sad, sad, sad.

[Scarlett]

It would not help though.The abuse will still go on at home. I don't think it can be stopped. That sounds so pessimistic, but I think it would take an act of God to make that father come to his senses. He really thinks God wants hiim to beat those children and he is so sure of his rightness and his righteousness that no amount of reasoning is going to reach him.

 

I have to agree that it is doubtful that it will stop. And sometimes strangers speaking up makes it worse on the kids...BUT...at least that little 4 yo girl will know that someone in the world thinks what her father is doing to her is wrong. That one confrontation may save her spirit until she can grow up and get out.

 

Also, even though I doubt this man can be changed, I think Colleen should still go through the steps of doing all she can do. For her own good.

[Kelli in TN]

I have to agree that it is doubtful that it will stop. And sometimes strangers speaking up makes it worse on the kids...BUT...at least that little 4 yo girl will know that someone in the world thinks what her father is doing to her is wrong. That one confrontation may save her spirit until she can grow up and get out.

 

Also, even though I doubt this man can be changed, I think Colleen should still go through the steps of doing all she can do. For her own good.

 

Oh, I agree, she should speak up. If enough people speak up to this man, who knows, he might just get a clue. I just know that when someone is in that mindset they are pretty stubborn.

[Plucky]

I don't know what I'd do but I do suggest you not be alone with this man or let your children go to his house again. Even his responses to you were pretty arrogant and throw up some real red flags. His abusive behavior may go farther than physical with his kids.

[Scarlett]

I read that a child should only be spanked across the bottom once. The first spank is for discipline, the rest are often to relieve anger/frustration from the parent.QUOTE]

 

I agree with this...I have read one swat for each year...and that helped me to keep a check on anger...

[Frontier Mom]

And we wonder why children leave the church? You asked him not do that in the church and he did anyway. I think he owes you the apology and should be explaining his actions to you, not the other way around.

 

I would approach the pastor and get his advice since it happened in the church. The bible, which he seems to want to take literally, says if you go to someone and they don't listen, take someone along, hence the pastor.

[Call Me Cordelia]

Well, you've judged him (correctly or incorrectly, notwithstanding) and called him an abuser in front of his child. How receptive would you be to someone who has done that to you?

 

We attend a church comprised of mostly home schoolers among whom the aforementioned practice of children sitting through the service from infancy/toddlerhood is common. I have seen it work by parents who use great love with their children, so it's not so much that particular act I question, but the motivation and spirit behind it.

 

I would doubt at this point that he would listen to you. Whether or not you should apologize and for what is between you and God.

 

I find your point about a congregation's responsibilities compelling and would follow the Matthew 18 steps.

 

And, FWIW, I'm no longer real big on spanking either.

 

Cordelia

[RoughCollie]

There is a difference between spanking and abuse. Abuse is against the law. I would report an adult to the Department of Social Services if I thought abuse was taking place.

 

RC

[Stacy in NJ]

I think families have the right to discipline within reasonable limits. As described, this dad passed "reasonable" some time ago. Publically whipping a small child is grossly inappropriate. I consider the bathroom public. I would be even more concerned about what he was doing privately.

 

Before doing anything, I'd speak with both your husband and your pastor. This guy needs a talking to, not just a confrontation with you, but rather a prolonged discussion with his church family. This is really beyond just the immediate situation and confrontation. Your church members need to decide if this type of discipline, within the church, is okay, or whether this dad needs a bit of an intervention. I wouldn't call child protective services, I would try to confront and resolve it within your church.

 

What a tough situation. Good luck.

[Colleen]

BTW, Colleen, nice to see you back. Have your tech problems improved?

 

For whatever reason, I was able to access the boards today for the first time in a couple of weeks (I think?). I believe it's a server issue. Hoping maybe all is well again ~ but that's what I thought the last time!

[Unicorn.]

I really think he owe's you one. Your description of him frightens me actually. I wonder if he beats his wife too? His behavior toward your son, (a guest in his home) shows that he has power/control issues. I would talk to your pastor. If the pastor can't convince him he is not doing "God's will" w/ this behavior, then I think an anon call to CPS is in order.

 

I really admire you for speaking up to him. We don't always agree, but in this case I am 100% behind you.

[readwithem]

. First, can you speak to the pastor about this? Perhaps this man would listen to the pastor? If that doesn't work, I'd pray about whether or not to get the state involved. I'd go there ONLY as a LAST resort b/c once they are involved...it's hard to get them "uninvolved", KWIM? I'm so sorry you had to witness this. I'm not against spanking. We do spank. I don't feel that spanking is abuse, but what you witnessed sure seems to be taking spanking "over the line", KWIM? I'll be praying for you to have wisdom here and for this family as well.

 

 

Agreeing with this. He's made it clear that he won't listen to you.

 

What an awful situation.

[GreenKitty]

I would talk to the pastor immediately, if nothing comes of it I would involve CPC.

[Marie in Oh]

is this man has adhered to a particular parenting model 100%-- probably a mix of the Pearls mixed with Vison Forum. The rigidity of this style of parenting is very appealing to some parents, ie. this is the way to get well behaved children and I am obeying God in the process.

 

It is graceless. Period. It shows no understanding that children are children and not little adults.

 

I'd like to know if the father you describe has gotten what he deserves from God? He may have not thought about it this way, but when I started to look at myself and my failings as an adult follower of Christ, I realized that I haven't gotten what I deserve. What have I gotten? Grace. And a whole lot of it. I try to give the same to my children as they grow and learn. I don't always succeed, but grace based parenting is where we are at these days.

[Fourmother]

As an example, once my second son was staying with these friends for a few days while Hans I were out of town. He was 9 at the time and at the dinner table, he asked for seconds. The dad told him to leave the table. Huh? My son was mystified. He honestly had no idea what he'd done wrong and when he asked, he was told not to question an authority figure. Very weird.

 

The thing about the dinner table really gives me pause. It sounds so much like Oliver Twist. This guy is on a very strange power trip, and he's taking along anyone who is unlucky enough to cross his path - his own kids, other's people's kids, and other adults. Most parents use discretion when correcting their children in public, whether they spank or not. These public beatings serve not only to terrify his children, but to intimidate anyone else who happens to be around. Nothing you say will change this man's behavior. Perhaps the pastor might be of some influence, but I honestly doubt it. You've stated your opinion clearly and forcefully. There's little more you can do, short of notifying the proper authorities if you feel the situation truly warrants it. If I were in your shoes I would act to severely limit his exposure to my family.

[Tami]

and so I have to conclude that it is a recommended form of discipline. What I have noticed is that children are far more disrespectful of adults and others since the advent of more progressive parenting techniques. There are many Scriptures that recommend corporal punishment as a means to drive away foolishness/rebellion and to save the child in the end.

 

A few thoughts.

 

The practice of discipline and love is given in the Scripture, and all the "right or wrong" of discipline should begin with a correct exposition on what God's word says on the subject

 

We don't know how defiant/rebellious the 4 yo was to her father

 

I *think* the point of spanking is for a child not to repeat the behavior, so of course the process is unpleasant

 

If you take a belt and snap it lightly on your leg, it will make a LOT of noise, but not be injurious (I just tried this!)

 

Discipline should be redemptive, and not angry.

 

Some children are more foolish, defiant, and disobedient than others. Some require harsher discipline than others. If your children have been generally dutiful, you may not undersand what a parent of a strong willed, defiant child deals with.

 

Fathers are not to provoke their children by being unnecessarily harsh.

 

Spanking is not popular in today's culture, and is generally painted as evil and abusive. I remember a time when a bratty child, disrespectful child would be spanked right in the open, and everyone would cheer, "Well done!" Now Child Protective Services would be called.

 

No discipline seems pleasant at the time! Spanking is an unpleasant business. I would guess most children would cry out if they KNOW a spanking is coming.

 

If you have a problem with another church member, you need to immediately call your elder board and meet together with the person and the elders.

 

Rather than call the father a judgmental name in front if his child (abuser), you could have made the choice to find an elder or paster RIGHT THEN AND THERE. Do it now.

 

You'll feel much better when you get to the bottom of this whole thing. If this dad is an abuser, he needs accountability and action NOW. If your perception of the situation was in error, perhaps it can be cleared up and restoration can happen.

 

Just a few random thoughts.

[Colleen]

Thank you for the replies thus far. Im grateful I can access the board today so I can "talk" this through. While I have some reservations about discussing it publicly, I do want the objective input. Granted, you aren't entirely objective in that you've only heard my side of the story. I would venture to say, though, that this male friend wouldn't disagree with my presentation of the facts.

 

I wanted to add that I genuinely do like and trust this man. He is not a volatile person, not an ogre or on a power trip by any stretch of the imagination. In fact, his calm-cool-collected approach is actually what makes the discipline even harder for me to fathom. I can understand someone reaching out and slapping a child in a momentary loss of patience. When I react in anger to a child, I feel remorse and am led to apologize. Apologize not for disciplining them, but for not disciplining myself. But I can't understand a premediated whipping. That's probably the "right" way to do it, according to people who use that method. And in that regard, this guy is doing it "right". In the incident on Sunday, this man certainly wasn't angry. He was just doing what he does when one of the children misbehaves or disobeys (from his perspective) in church. And if you met this family, they're so lovely and peaceful and happy you wouldn't think his disciplinary method is harming his children. Perhaps it isn't, for all I know. Just yesterday I was reading about Martin Luther's parents stringent discipline ~ his mother whipping him until he bled, for example. One could argue that these methods were used by years, often by upstanding people.

 

I am truly trying to see it from the other side. I want to understand. I don't want to create a rift between all of us; these people, along with other members of their extended family, are like an extension of our own family. I want, in short, to do what is right ~ if a "right" does exist in such a situation.

 

I do plan to talk more about this with my pastor. (His wife was the one sitting there with me when it happened, and I'm sure she's shared some of this with him already.) The thing is, our pastor is pretty hands-off when it comes to inserting himself into other people's lives. He makes a point not to impress his own opinion about childrearing, etc on others. I appreciate that, to an extent. But I must now ask him if this isn't perhaps one time when his pastoral authority should be exerted, his advice shared? Though I don't know that it will matter, as the man in question is much more conservative in his theology, and a stubborn person to boot.

 

I guess I don't know that any amount of input from anyone will matter, which is why I've never said a word in the past. Only after being a party (so to speak) to Sunday's incident do I feel like I can not simply be a silent witness.

[RebeccaC]

After church, he came up to me and said, "You owe me an apology." "Nope, I don't owe you anything. I don't want to listen to you abuse your children." (Again, I'm not helping with those particular words, I realize that.) He said, "So you want me to obey man instead of God? You need to learn to mind your own business." By the power of the Holy Spirit, I was able to say nothing else to add fuel to the fire. I told him I couldn't say anything right then that would come out politely, and that was it. He said he'd be waiting for my apology.

 

From what you have posted the whipping sounds like abuse, however his need for an apology and then waiting for an apology sounds like control and a pride issue with this man. I would not speak with him alone and might take the issue up with your dh and the pastor of you church.

 

I of course do not know this man but I would guess that he does not hold women in high regard and if you tangle with him on your own I would wager you will get a stronger taste of his need to control.

 

Your pastor needs to know that the sound of the whipping was emotionally unsettling, and that visitors to your church and or members, may be turned off to the congregation and make a calls to the appropriate authorities. What you do is up to you but I might think long and hard about making such a call.

[GreenKitty]

From what you have posted the whipping sounds like abuse, however his need for an apology and then waiting for an apology sounds like control and a pride issue with this man. I would not speak with him alone and might take the issue up with your dh and the pastor of you church.

 

I of course do not know this man but I would guess that he does not hold women in high regard and if you tangle with him on your own I would wager you will get a stronger taste of his need to control.

 

Your pastor needs to know that the sound of the whipping was emotionally unsettling, and that visitors to your church and or members, may be turned off to the congregation and make a calls to the appropriate authorities. What you do is up to you but I might think long and hard about making such a call.

 

:iagree:

[st_claire]

Forget about who needs to apologize and contact child services immediately! If that's how he treats them in public, imagine what he might be doing in private.

 

I would go right this second and call CPS on the family. Let them decide if it's abuse. The second you even suspect abuse you should call. In this case it sounds like abuse for sure.

[Gamom3]

 

Colleen, I have to say your post just stirred up all sorts of pain for me. Pain for the child I was at the hands of someone who "disciplined" that way (until my mom and her lawyer rescued me), pain for the children of mine who lived through my years of being a follower of the proponents of that sort of childrearing.

 

I think I will go hand out hugs to my kids now. They'll think I've flipped my lid. Again!!!

 

This goes as for me as well. I was raised being spanked or getting a whipping...never abused though! But I have taken it TO far with my oldest(to where I think it was abusive)...thinking I was doing the right thing. I have apologized to him multiple times..which will never be enough!

I regret spanking, "whipping", him the way I did.

Those times will never be wiped away from my memory! I pray that he has forgiven me for the way I had treated him!

 

I think you need to go to the pastor, talk to him about the situation and your concerns. If you have to have the pastor set up a meeting with the man and his wife about how they handle the situation in church. Sometimes people misinterpret the Bible and need things clarified.

[PrairieAir]

While the description you gave makes me a little ill, it is the incident as you perceived it and not necessarily 100% correct. You were not in the bathroom. You do not say that you saw any marks on the child. You say he went to get whatever he used to administer the whipping which indicates to me that you do not even know what he used.

 

As for what you heard, sounds can be deceiving. A loud crack does not mean that the impact had much force. I have also heard children crying as you described when there was no reason for it (they wanted something they couldn't have/weren't getting their way or the like). It is jarring to hear that kind of cry and it does make me worry and want to investigate when I hear that type of cry, but some kids are very good (even at a young age) about being manipulative in this way. They know the effect it has. Other kids may not be trying to manipulate but just cry differently.

 

As I said, though, it would have upset me and just reading the description was upsetting. However, I do not think you had enough evidence to come out and call him a child abuser. The manner in which you did it--publicly and in front of the child who had just been disciplined--was wrong. You indicated that you already know this was not the best way to handle the situation, though. You can't go back and erase it, but I do think it is appropriate to apologize. I also think it's appropriate to follow that apology with a discussion of how you felt hearing that, how it sounded to you, why it caused you such concern and such an emotional reaction. You said these people are good friends. They must have some good qualities. Maybe you could tell them, "Look, I've always admired you for...and I value our friendship. Also, as a sister in Christ and a fellow member of ________ Church, I feel compelled to discuss my concerns with you. Perhaps I don't know enough about what is going on to make a judgement, but it looks and sounds truly heartbreaking." Then spell out your concerns kindly and lovingly. Tell him you know it is not your business to tell him exactly how to discipline his children, but that you would hope he would tell you and try to help if he saw what may be a problem in your life.

 

Another thing. You say his oldest is only 5? I remember when my children were all young and how I felt sitting in fellowship with them or during any other more serious occasion. Our fellowship is small and casual, but I felt an intense burden to keep my children still and quiet. I was afraid that every little movement or noise would distract someone from hearing the Word. I thought these little guys were somehow big enough to understand that they should have enough respect for God and His Word to sit still even if the teaching went a little long or was over their heads. It distressed me so much that I'm afraid I rarely heard any of the teaching myself. I began to develop an attitude about going to fellowship. I did not enjoy it at all and quite often I was out of fellowship with God about going to Bible fellowship! I took a similar approach to homeschooling and raising my children in general. I was so very serious. If I understood grace and mercy, I did not practice them much. I was a young mother and bent on proving I could do everything right.

 

This dad thinks he is doing what is right. He isn't doing it because he wants to hurt his kids. He needs to be guided gently. I don't know whether or not you can do much more than apologize and explain your concerns. I don't know that he will listen to you now. He may not have before. He needs to be counselled by someone he respects, probably another man and a leader in your church who has successfully raised children to adulthood. I wouldn't push talking to him too much because pride can build a wall pretty quickly and then he may not be receptive to anyone. If he resists talking to you, go to someone who you think will be more effective.

[elizabeth]

is this man has adhered to a particular parenting model 100%-- probably a mix of the Pearls mixed with Vison Forum. The rigidity of this style of parenting is very appealing to some parents, ie. this is the way to get well behaved children and I am obeying God in the process.

 

It is graceless. Period. It shows no understanding that children are children and not little adults.

 

I'd like to know if the father you describe has gotten what he deserves from God? He may have not thought about it this way, but when I started to look at myself and my failings as an adult follower of Christ, I realized that I haven't gotten what I deserve. What have I gotten? Grace. And a whole lot of it. I try to give the same to my children as they grow and learn. I don't always succeed, but grace based parenting is where we are at these days.

I really think you are amazing. Thank you for your post.

[CLHCO]

Honestly, I do utilize spanking, but I would consider it a "get moving" or "right now" single swat on a toddler, not a whipping. I will admit here that my husband has officially given my son a spanking but it's about once or twice a year for the most defiant behaviors that pop up now and then to test us and that too will stop soon since he's getting too old. Because of the rarity, they are effective.

 

It's my opinion that if you are going to believe the Bible's discussions of the rod as meaning a spanking, it's a final and last resort for the most serious of infractions when a natural consequence wouldn't work better, such as a challenge on authority by a young boy, though I believe this too is open for disagreement.

 

God has harshly judged His people in the past in a variety of ways. Very often it was a natural consequence of their behaviors, something described in Romans and other places. Babylon comes to mind as an example of the worst, which got a defiant nation's attention, but even that was warned and grace was given even during the captivity. If you randomly slam your child with the worst of it all for every infraction, what message are you sending? The Greeks lived in fear that their petty gods would do whatever they want to them without love. That's the view he's giving them of God. They'll be slammed with the worst if they don't appease the gods at every moment. Perhaps I'm being over-dramatic though so such a charge would be with careful consideration, I trust.

 

If he is lording power over his children, for what sounds like his sake to get the behaviors he thinks looks "proper Christian", to demand someone apologize instead of dealing with a Christian Sister in understanding and explaining how he really is trying to love and sacrifice for his children, I honestly wonder if it's not time to make an appeal to the church elders. You do not have authority over him but if there is a problem and your case is made, the church should hold authority if he is honestly living by Biblical principles.

 

Two final things. First, I would apologize but clarify why. Your comment was probably snarky instead of brought to a brother in love. Second, could your husband stand with you if you brought your concerns to this gentleman, or if necessary, the church leadership? Women often come off as over-emotional in such areas with men as the rational ones (justified or not). I think it would help.

[Sue G in PA]

From what you have posted the whipping sounds like abuse, however his need for an apology and then waiting for an apology sounds like control and a pride issue with this man. I would not speak with him alone and might take the issue up with your dh and the pastor of you church.

 

I of course do not know this man but I would guess that he does not hold women in high regard and if you tangle with him on your own I would wager you will get a stronger taste of his need to control.

 

Your pastor needs to know that the sound of the whipping was emotionally unsettling, and that visitors to your church and or members, may be turned off to the congregation and make a calls to the appropriate authorities. What you do is up to you but I might think long and hard about making such a call.

 

 

:iagree: Leave it in the hands of your pastor for now. Your pastor really does need to get involved in this, IMHO. The pastor is the authority of his "sheep" and on issues like this should gently, and in love, confront this man/family. This man might be administering this discipline in a calm and non-angry way, but it doesn't really matter. It's not even the fact that he used an "object" to spank the child. Some people prefer to use an object rather than their own hands b/c they say that "hands are to be used for loving, not disciplining". It's the number of times he "whipped" her, her obvious fear before the spanking was even done (telling me it's happened before). Sounds like a control/pride issue with him, but you obviously know him better. I hope your pastor gets involved. If he doesn't, perhaps ask your dh to speak w/ this man. I agree that you, as a woman, would probably not be heard by this man.

[Moxie]

I haven't read the other replies yet.

 

My first thought it to tell your pastor but then I bet this "man" (not what I would consider a real man, btw) would just become indignant and change churches.

 

Honestly, I would call CPS. I don't say that lightly but using a weapon on a 4 year old, when a spanking from a grown man is often too hard for such a small child, is abuse that needs looked into.

 

Edited to add:

 

Demanding an apology of a grown woman!! I would have been so tempted to slug him right in the nose!! He sounds horrible and controlling. I wouldn't be surprised if his wife is afraid of him also.

 

Give me their address. I'll call CPS.

[Michelle T]

I don't know what I'd do but I do suggest you not be alone with this man or let your children go to his house again. Even his responses to you were pretty arrogant and throw up some real red flags. His abusive behavior may go farther than physical with his kids.

 

 

All of his actions that you have described sound like he has severe power issues. I would not approach him alone, and I would certainly never allow my children to go to his home. I agree with others that you should talk to the pastor first.

Michelle T

[Colleen]

There are many Scriptures that recommend corporal punishment as a means to drive away foolishness/rebellion and to save the child in the end.

 

Yes, I'm aware of that, although of course Christians don't all hold to the same interpretations of Scripture. I can understand one's reliance on Scripture as a means for corporal punishment, and I understand where this man is coming from when he asserts that his disciplinary methods are a product of following God. I think we have to be wary of reading any particular verse or verses in a vacuum, though. Likewise, we have to extend as parents grace to our children, as our Father extends grace to us.

 

We don't know how defiant/rebellious the 4 yo was to her father

 

That's correct; I don't know. I am in church with them nearly every week, though, and spend a good deal of time with them outside of church. To that end, I have a feel for what precedes the spanking.

 

I *think* the point of spanking is for a child not to repeat the behavior, so of course the process is unpleasant

 

I've wondered if this man thinks the end-result of the spanking should be a lack of repeated offenses. If so, then by that measure, his tactics aren't working. I'm aware spanking is no popular in our culture. I don't want this to be a discussion of the "rightness" or "wrongness" of spanking, which is why I made clear my own background. I'm not coming at this situation from a position of being adamently against spanking. I agree, too, that since my children are fairly well-behaved, I have been saved the trouble of having to deal with real stubbornness and defiance. I know this family, and these children, well enough to say that the same is true for them.

 

Rather than call the father a judgmental name in front if his child (abuser), you could have made the choice to find an elder or paster RIGHT THEN AND THERE.

 

Yes, I acknowledged twice in my original post that my own wording was not beneficial. Although I might add that I don't think saying the words "child abuse" in front of a young four year old who is crying so noisily as to barely notice my presence was of note to her. But you are right in that I could have chosen a different approach. Honestly, though, the dynamic in our chapel is not such that I would have simply run to an elder at the end of the service.

 

Thank you for your thoughts; I appreciate them, along with the many other replies!

[LizzyBee]

I agree that the description of the spanking sounds over the top for such a young child and for simply being wiggly in church. But you also said the children seem cheerful and happy. In that situation, I would not call CPS because I think only in extreme cases are children better off in foster care than with their own families. There is a very high rate of physical and sexual abuse in foster families. It's been my own observation that children seem to respond best to strict discipline (which does not necessarily have to include spanking) combined with lots of physical affection and spoken affirmation. It sounds like although the dad may be too harsh in his discipline, he nevertheless is doing a decent job of affirming to his kids that they are loved.

 

Now that your concern is out in the open, I would certainly go to the pastor or elders and share your concerns as well as what occurred on Sunday. Hopefully, they can mediate and smooth the situation so that the man might take your concerns to heart. I agree that he probably will not listen to you, but if the men of the church think he is being too harsh, perhaps he would be willing to reconsider.

[Colleen]

While the description you gave makes me a little ill, it is the incident as you perceived it and not necessarily 100% correct. You were not in the bathroom. You do not say that you saw any marks on the child. You say he went to get whatever he used to administer the whipping which indicates to me that you do not even know what he used.

 

I hope I didn't sound as if I know every detail of what went on behind that closed door; I don't. It is in part my perception. Whether or not there marks on the child is actually beside the point to me, though. I wouldn't use "marks" as a means for deciding if my own corrective discipline was too harsh. Goodness, I've said things to my boys that were downright mean. Did those comments leave visible marks? No. Yet that doesn't alter the fact that I was wrong, that I was too harsh. But you're right in that I wasn't entirely "there", nor do I know what he used to adminster the whipping. I've always assumed he uses a belt but again, that's really neither here nor there to me.

 

As for what you heard, sounds can be deceiving. A loud crack does not mean that the impact had much force. I have also heard children crying as you described when there was no reason for it

 

True, I have no idea how much impact the force of the spanking had. Obviously, this girl was able to go back into church and sit still and be quiet, so it's not as if she was writhing in pain. Again, though, I don't know that the degree of impact is the be-all, end-all to me. As for the crying, I have heard many children, in many situations, whine and cry and moan when they don't get what they want, etc. To me, there is a notable difference in the cry of a child ~ a child I know well ~ who is genuinely fearful.

 

I do not think you had enough evidence to come out and call him a child abuser. The manner in which you did it--publicly and in front of the child who had just been disciplined--was wrong. You indicated that you already know this was not the best way to handle the situation, though. You can't go back and erase it, but I do think it is appropriate to apologize. I also think it's appropriate to follow that apology with a discussion of how you felt hearing that, how it sounded to you, why it caused you such concern and such an emotional reaction. You said these people are good friends. They must have some good qualities. Maybe you could tell them, "Look, I've always admired you for...and I value our friendship. Also, as a sister in Christ and a fellow member of ________ Church, I feel compelled to discuss my concerns with you. Perhaps I don't know enough about what is going on to make a judgement, but it looks and sounds truly heartbreaking." Then spell out your concerns kindly and lovingly. Tell him you know it is not your business to tell him exactly how to discipline his children, but that you would hope he would tell you and try to help if he saw what may be a problem in your life.

 

You expressed this very well; thank you.

 

This dad thinks he is doing what is right. He isn't doing it because he wants to hurt his kids. He needs to be guided gently. I don't know whether or not you can do much more than apologize and explain your concerns. I don't know that he will listen to you now. He may not have before. He needs to be counselled by someone he respects, probably another man and a leader in your church who has successfully raised children to adulthood. I wouldn't push talking to him too much because pride can build a wall pretty quickly and then he may not be receptive to anyone. If he resists talking to you, go to someone who you think will be more effective.

 

Good insights; thanks again.

[Quiver0f10]

I would go to the pastor with this and have him deal with the dad.

[Danestress]

I think he forced you to witness (with your ears) a very intimate discipline session that you had already indicated, in no uncertain terms, would make you uncomfortable. I think that was bad manners. I think it would make most people uncomfortable (if not utterly hysterical), and I think in most jurisdictions, it would warrant a visit from a social worker if reported. Not that I would report it.

 

By insisting on whipping this child semi-publically with someone who already mentioned she would really have strong feelings about it, he took the risk that someone (you!) would say something. So you did. And you said it in front of the child because he made it really likely that would happen. You didn't call the police. You didn't assault him. You didn't write a letter to the editor exposing him. You just told him "that's abusive."

 

I would let him know, if it's addressed again, that you like him, respect him, value his friendship and that you think that was abusive and always will. I hope you will tell him that you will *always* say something when you witness something that is clearly abusive in your view. You can say you think he has the legal right (or maybe not, depending on your jurisdiction) but that's not the issue. The issue is whether you will confront child abuse when you see it. You did, and I think he's darn lucky that you only did what you did. And you can acknowledge that sometimes the line between "discipline" and "abuse" is subject to a lot of debate, but that you think he crossed the line by a wide margin and would be happy to debate that point publically.

 

I totally understand too, Colleen, that you can really like someone and have good experiences with them, and still recognize that they have appalling parenting. I have friends who do things that really make me scratch my head, and I understand it's not really my business. But for me this would cross the line because he chose to make sure you heard it.

 

Now, I wouldn't pick at this with him, I'm just telling you want I would say if he really insists on talking more about it. As it is, I think that having told him and your daughter what you think, and having asked a family member to consider it, you have done all you really must.

[nakitty]

Im not against spanking...but that isn't spanking....that is clearly abuse. And had that jerk told ME to apologize I likely would have punched him in the face. Call the police. You owe it to those children.

[5Youngs]

First, how blessed your children are to have you!!!

It is a gift to love your children and to have compassion towards them.

It may sound strange, but not all parents know how to do both.

 

There is a BIG difference between teaching children to fear you and to obey out of love.

You can't have it both ways.

And, honestly, it largely will affect their relationship with God when they are grown.

Will they obey and follow Him bc they are afraid of Him or because they love Him and know that they are a part of His heart?

There is a book by Reb Bradley called Shepherding Your Child's Heart.

I would recommend it for you and for anyone who wants to know WHY you feel the way you do about discipline.

 

It is never easy to stand on your own.

You know how to do this: you're a homeschooler!

God never puts us in a situation unless He's given us the resources to handle it.

It sounds like the Holy Spirit was prompting you to speak, just as He restrained you at the end of the confrontation.

I am so proud of you for standing up for that child!

You did the right thing~

The dad was wrong to expose you to his bad behavior.

I agree with the previous posters, you need to go to the pastor and explain to him what happened.

Implore him to have a talk with the father.

It is his responsibility to get involved when his congregation is not making good decisions.

The dad invited it by acting like this in public!!!

 

Hang in there, and never underestimate the power of prayer.

God loves those kids and he wants the best for them.

I will be praying that God's presence invades their lives and that His peace invades yours!

Dawanna:grouphug:

[Barb_]

I have also heard children crying as you described when there was no reason for it (they wanted something they couldn't have/weren't getting their way or the like). It is jarring to hear that kind of cry and it does make me worry and want to investigate when I hear that type of cry, but some kids are very good (even at a young age) about being manipulative in this way. They know the effect it has. Other kids may not be trying to manipulate but just cry differently.

 

I nodded along with the rest of your post, but deeply disagree with the point above. There is a fundamental difference between an angry, whining, or manipulative cry, even an out of control one, and a truly frightened cry. There is no 4yo possessing the acting skills to put on something like that.

 

Barb

[Joanne]

What I want to ask you about is what you consider "too much" as far as spanking is concerned. I know some of you consider spanking, period, to be too much. So I'm really speaking more to those of you who do use spanking as a disciplinary tool. We have these friends ~ dear friends whom I admire and appreciate in so many respects. But. I worry about the manner in which the dad spanks his children. Actually, the word I would use for his method is "whip", not "spank".

 

I have not read the thread.

 

What you described of this family, the children and the Dad is absolutely an abusive dynamic. The expectations of the children, the heavily punitive, frequent application of over the top physical discipline is.....abuse.

 

I am "against spanking". But I'm not stupid, naive or an idealist. Indeed, I think even talking about spanking misses the mark. There are people who believe in spanking as applied by your church member and there are people who spank, as you did, infrequently. To make any assumptions about parents who include spanking is silly. Parents can be terrific parents on either "side" of that issue.

 

I believe with every fiber of my being that frequently punished kids are at a disadvantage. I believe any parenting approach that includes frequent spanking or punishment is suspect, removed from healthy knowledge of developmental and age appropriate issues and generates needless punitive atmosphere.

 

Spanking should never be used as primary discipline, frequent discipline or as "the" discipline tool of a family. Punishment, if used at all, should be a small part of the family approach and dynamic.

[Tammyla]

I haven't read all the responses yet. My feelings are that he owes you an apology. If you give him the ordered apology, you will likely in his mind place your OK on what he did. That sounded like abuse to me, and if he goes that far in public with his church family listening...I'm very worried about how he is at home.

 

fwiw, I think you were very brave and said what many would have felt, but not voiced aloud.

[Joanne]

agree that the description of the spanking sounds over the top for such a young child and for simply being wiggly in church. But you also said the children seem cheerful and happy.

 

Abused can seem cheerful and happy. In many cases, they do not know that what they are experiencing as parenting IS abuse.

 

Spanking is not popular in today's culture, and is generally painted as evil and abusive.

 

Actually, statistics are that nearly 98% of children under the age of 5 are spanked. There is a more vocal voice against it than there once was. I've always found the assertion that "kids behaved better when parents spanked" to be simplistic and inaccurate.

 

Again, it's useless to talk about the need for spanking OR the need to not spank. "Spanking" is too broad a term in application to evaluate effectively.