Crisis of faith- not in God but in the Church (this may be a rant and it is long)

[Hope in God]

I believe in biblical Christianity but I can't find any churches that seem to belive and teach the same. The church mission statement says they do, and they may, but I just don't see it in practice.

 

So many churches around here have gone the 'seeker sensitive' route which (can I be cynical here for a moment) translates into churches full of unsaved people (with a false sense of assurance) and where the real flock is starving from lack of spiritual food.

 

Two things that have really been bothering me:

 

The first is when I found out about the seperation of an awesome homeschooling couple that have a number of kids (two graduated as well as some still homeschooling -youngest in grade 4). They go to the local seeker sensitive church where many homeschooling families attend. We tried out this church for 3 weeks until I could bear it no longer. The preaching was watery at best and to avoid the mention of 'sin' the preacher had to do some fancy footwork and eventually ended up calling it 'distraction.' This church runs all sorts of programs such as 'financial peace university' where I would occasionaly see this couple in the hallway as I picked up my daugher from youth group (which was just games and snacks). I noticed that though the husband was always warm and friendly before, he now seemed really stand-offish. The last time I saw them I asked her how things were going and she was on the brink of tears as she said things were going fine while he was even more stand-offish and was standing a couple meters away from her and would not even make brief eye contact. A week or so later I found out that they had seperated. These people were pillars of the Christian homeschool community. I believe that if this church that they attended faithfully, every week (and evenings as well) were faithful to preach the gospel they would have had a chance- and much more than a chance.

 

Why do churches want to discard the gospel in order to be 'seeker sensitive.' If any 'seeker' does wander into the church how would they ever get saved without the gospel being preached. They may as well go to an Ekhart Tolle semanar for pete's sake!! I once heard a preacher say that the only seeker is the Holy Spirit and if you want to be seeker sensitive then be sensitive to him and I would agree! I have gone to church all my life as well as to a Christian school from grades 2-12 and still I didn't really know the gospel until I was 30 and happened onto a Paul Washer sermon on a friends ipod.

 

The second thing that has been bothering me is our church attendance. We have been trying out a different local church (after going nowhere for a while) and have really been on the fence about it. The people there are wonderful and very commited to eachother and the church but I am running into the same problem with the sermons being rather lite. The thing that really had me concerned is the change in my 5 year old daughter. She is the most spiritually sensitive child I have ever run across. I attribute it to the fact that she was never supposed to live (according to the doctors) and, as a preemie, had many near death experiences. We prayed non-stop for her and I think that due to all that prayer and the fact that all she had was Jesus, she has a real deep love for him. The first week we went to this church I asked her how Sunday school was and she emphatically told me "We did not talk about Jesus!" which she repeated about 10 times on the drive home. The next week was the same- "We didn't talk about Jesus" and she only repeated it 5 times on the way home. The third week and fourth week- same, just with less emphasis. Now (after 3 months) if I ask her how Sunday school was she just says "We made this" and thrusts a craft at me. It was only on reflection that I realized that she used to corner everybody and quiz them on their relationship with Jesus and what heaven is like and if they want to go to heaven to be with Jesus and now she doesn't do that anymore. In fact she doesn't talk about God even a fraction of the amount she used to. I know that it has been said that sending some kids to school makes them dumber and I wonder if sending some kids to Sunday school spititually dumbs them down?

 

So this is a bit of a rant and a bit of a "what to do?" What do you guys think?

[*********]

I'm right there with you on the 'seeker sensitive' stuff. Believer's need to have a 'believers meeting' they can attend, so as to grow in the word. Evangelism is separate from the believers meeting.

 

And, this is why we homechurch. :001_smile:

[staceyobu]

I can definitely feel your pain. We went through a series of bad churches right after we got married. We now go to a Presbyterian Church in America. I'm not sure what the options are where you live. I would definitely look into other denominations extensively. We did not think our theology would match where we are now, but the strong biblical teaching really drew us in. I feel that my children are learning in Sunday School. Both (my four and six year old) are learning a children's version of the Westminster Confession along with studying the Bible.

 

I really stay irritated when churches are running 82 "improve your life" programs but aren't really doing much teaching. And, often, they aren't really doing any real ministry to the non churched either.

[happyhomemaker25]

I was born and raised Southern Baptist. We just recently switched to a Reformed Church and I will say it has been so refreshing. We go verse by verse through the Bible, except occasionally when the preacher does a topical sermon on something very needed. For instance he preached for two weeks on the reality of Heaven and today he preached on Grieving with Hope. When the whole Harold Camping mess came down he took a Sunday to talk about that as well. Mostly, he is preaching verse by verse through Hebrews on Sunday mornings and Romans on Wed. night right now.

My biggest issue with the seeker sensitive movement is how we want everyone to feel comfortable at church. If I have unresolved sin in my life I don't want to be comfortable I want it pointed out! Also, and this will be foreign to some and probably offensive which I don't mean to be, if you don't know, love, and respect God you should not feel comfortable when His word is being preached.

I believe the model for church should be teaching Christians how to live a Holy life and reach out to others not just in word but in deed. Christians should then take that out to the unbelieving world. Church should be geared toward equipping the saints.

Also I don't see the need for bigger buildings and better programs. We have homeless people on the streets, orphans, widows barely making ends meet and fatherless children by the thousands, but praise the Lord we just built a new Worship center that will seat 5,000 people. GAG!!!!

Sorry, this is my soap box issue. I so understand what you are talking about.

[mamakimberly]

Hmm... how to word this?

 

I'd be really hesitant to judge a church because of one couple's separation. And I'd be really hesitant to judge someone because they are separating. You have no idea what is happening in their world that might be the cause of this- and it may have an underlying cause that has nothing to do with (your perceived) lack of depth in their church.

 

It does sound like you're not in the best church situation for what you're desiring out of a church.

 

I've heard a few things that resonated with me on church sermons and worship. If you don't like the worship, the good news is you have 6 1/2 days to worship as you wish- you're only at church a few hours of the week, and your worship music can be whatever style you want for those 6 1/2 days. And for church sermons, Sunday morning should not be your Bible study. If you're expecting to get all of your spiritual food on Sunday morning, you will always be spiritually hungry.

 

YMMV. JMHO. Etc...

[Parker Martin]

I'd categorize our church as seeker sensitive, but extremely in depth. It's seeker sensitive in that everyone is welcome, free bread is given to visitors, new people are encouraged to join small groups, everyone is friendly, etc. But it's definitely for actual seekers. There's no watering down of the Gospel message. The pastors go through whatever part of the Bible we're studying verse by verse. Teaching is in depth and involvement in carrying out the things Christ commanded is expected. The church supports a great number of missionaries and runs many community programs to help the poor, drug-addicted, disabled, etc.

 

So I would say that being seeker-sensitive does not necessarily mean a church has to go with Christianity-lite. In fact, I'd say that that's not really seeker sensitive at all. If they're seeking, what are they supposed to find in a place that teaches nothing, believes nothing, expects nothing?

 

If they're seeking, the church should offer something for them to find.

 

It can be so tough to find a church that one feels is operating as Christ would desire. I know that we looked for so so long. But it's wonderful when found, so take heart! :grouphug:

[Parker Martin]

I'd be really hesitant to judge a church because of one couple's separation. And I'd be really hesitant to judge someone because they are separating. You have no idea what is happening in their world that might be the cause of this- and it may have an underlying cause that has nothing to do with (your perceived) lack of depth in their church.

 

:iagree:

 

This could also be a chance for your church to work hard at supporting this couple, embodying Christ's love for them, and helping them to get closer to God in their time of trial.

[JVA]

We attend a Southern Baptist church and have for nearly 20 years. The pastor teaches verse by verse- it's quite in-depth. People need the gospel.....he started in I Corinthians today and I imagine we'll be in this book through Feb or March. It's very appropriate for our times and location....we're near DC- a cosmopolitan city and full of sin. The leadership has resisted going the 'seeker' or 'purpose-driven' route.

[Sue G in PA]

I didn't read your entire post yet but the phrase "seeker sensitive" just jumped out at me b/c our pastor JUST preached on this today! We are a very NON seeker sensitive church. My pastor is a very "tell it like it is" sort of preacher. Preaches the Word...no matter who it offends. Will go back now and read your whole post :)

[Penny_P]

The last bit about your daughter really got to me. :( Do you incorporate Bible study in your homeschool? I have no words of advice, just :grouphug:.

 

My dh just snorts at the feel good, message-lite sermons that are given most places. We eventually became Catholic, but in our short journey there have only been a few priests so far that address divorce, immodesty, etc with strong words. It seems our church leaders are afraid of chasing people away.

[laughing lioness]

So this is a bit of a rant and a bit of a "what to do?" What do you guys think?

 

What to do about what? About your friends seperating? About the lack of depth you see in your dd's SS class, about your discomfort with seeker sensitive churches? About how to procede? What exactly are you asking about?

[myfatherslily]

I'm sorry, I know the in-between feeling well. I was feeling the little things building up about my own non-denominational, very Bible-based church, which is filled with people I love. I didn't want to nit-pick. I wanted to either have a real reason to not attend, or to stop getting upset about seemingly silly things (like how Children's Church was essentially Bible-story movie hour). I may not like the songs, but we can sing anything we want at home. I may not love children's church, but I'm still teaching them. So I struggled, because I really do love those people and there was nothing "wrong" with what was going on!

 

Now in the past couple years, I've the most incredible depth within the Orthodox church. When I first started learning about the church, it was more of "What in the WORLD? These people are crazy...." The depth, the beauty, the ages and ages of wisdom built upon each other with Christ as the cornerstone... it's amazing me.

 

I know there are others here who are finding the same beauty within the (just-as-ancient) Catholic church :)

 

ETA: As a divorced person, I would like to add that it was not my church's fault that things fell apart. It happens even in the best of churches. I would be so sad if someone judge my church (the non-denom one) based on the fact that my husband chose a different path. It sounds like you saw other problems within the church, which are certainly causes for concern. But please don't assume that the couple would be fine if the church was just better. Just pray for them, cause it's very hard.

Edited October 16, 2011 by myfatherslily

[momacacia]

Wow, this is a fascinating thread for today! DH and I were just discussing this on the drive home after a table discussion in our Sunday school where one set of parents explained that they came (were led by their children, actually) to our church from a more "traditional" church with deeper worship music (hymns), etc. She mentioned the pastor of our more contemporary service saying in a sermon that they dress more casually in that service so that "seekers" are comfortable coming there, when she was dressed more formally as she did in her previous church. So, while it was okay to point out that she was "overdressed" and making people "uncomfortable by the way she dressed," the thought that maybe people should dress in a way that's honoring and respectful to God when they come to church, never crossed anyone's mind. It's all about making "seekers" comfortable.

 

Frankly, I don't care how people dress when they come to church (I do have an opinion), but I don't think the church should snub either those dressed up or those dressed down. And honestly, the lady's husband in Sunday school was in a hooded sweatshirt and look sloppy. I'd show up at Wal-Mart like that, but not church, work, or a coffee out with mom friends.

 

DH's final comment on the matter was that church really is for God and worshipers, not seekers. We should be engaging the seekers out on the street, in our neighborhood, at our jobs, not turning 180 degrees in church to make them cozy at the footstool of God, where without Jesus none of us should be all too cozy. Okay, DH only said the first part, I added the rest. ;)

 

I'm very sorry about your dd. She sounds very special and that's very sad. I don't have any advice on what to do, but I'd hop on fixing that quick. I think you have a good point about Sunday school and public school. It's really all just the dumbing down of everything in our culture. Others in our Sunday school class can't believe that I expect 6.5yo to memorize Psalm 139, and it all just goes on from there.

 

If you find a solution or a great church in my area, let me know.

 

:confused:

[TraciWA]

There is a web site called www.9marks.org . They are called Nine Marks ministries and really stand for the biblical church model. There is a church search button on their site that can help you find churches that may fit what you are looking for.

[Jean in Newcastle]

There is a web site called www.9marks.org . They are called Nine Marks ministries and really stand for the biblical church model. There is a church search button on their site that can help you find churches that may fit what you are looking for.

 

As far as I can tell, this site only lists churches in the United States. The OP is in Canada.

[Aquinas Academy]

Now in the past couple years, I've the most incredible depth within the Orthodox church. When I first started learning about the church, it was more of "What in the WORLD? These people are crazy...." The depth, the beauty, the ages and ages of wisdom built upon each other with Christ as the cornerstone... it's amazing me.

 

I know there are others here who are finding the same beauty within the (just-as-ancient) Catholic church :)

 

OP, if you are interested, I can PM you the names of some Catholic and Orthodox parishes in your area (I used to live in Victoria). I don't want to force you in this direction and I will not be offended if you choose not to go. It's just an idea you may wish to consider. :)

:grouphug:

[Ellie]

The Catholic Church is the "most Biblical" one. Y'all probably don't agree with me...*I* wouldn't have agreed with me two years ago, but there it is. Two thousand years of preaching the Gospel, begun with the men who actually walked and talked with Jesus.

[FriedClams]

I'm right there with you on the 'seeker sensitive' stuff. Believer's need to have a 'believers meeting' they can attend, so as to grow in the word. Evangelism is separate from the believers meeting.

 

And, this is why we homechurch. :001_smile:

 

:iagree: We left a church where the teaching was weak and the children's discipleship program was disbanded so they could have a "production" for kids once a month to get their parents in the door. I agree that parents need to be there - but the kids got dumped in the process.

 

It was hard leaving - but we couldn't be happier. Our kids faith in Jesus Christ and their walk with God is the most important thing for us - and we are so glad they are in a place where they can grow and learn. The kids are challenged in our church - they read scripture, they run the A/V stuff, and they are allowed to share a lesson if they are so led. It's amazing.

 

Please, pray about it. God will lead you in the way your should go.

[jennsmile]

I agree with the other posters that divorce happens in all churches and not to judge the church on individuals and their choices.

 

I am grateful for our church's Primary program for the kids. I know each week they are getting a lesson and learning our beliefs. It sounds like you either need to help bring change to this church and have them teach about Jesus to your 5 yo or you need to find a church to help her faith grow.

 

:grouphug:

[happi duck]

...The church mission statement says they do, and they may, but I just don't see it in practice....

 

Sadly, this is the same at our church too....talks a good talk but nothing is ever put in practice.

[lisamarie]

I'm in the same boat and have yet to find a church in my area that tells it like it is. We were going to an Anglican church with a fabulous Pastor, but he up and quit and moved his family across the country. Now DH and I are left to figure out what to do from here. We have stopped going to church for the past few months and have a family prayer time instead. I did tell DH that I am going to church this coming Sunday. He can find a church for us or I will go with my Grandma (who is Catholic--we are decidedly not).

[JenniferB]

I've been a faithful 10+ year participant of the best non-denominational Bible-teaching-and-preaching church on the planet (in my opinion). The people are wonderful, the pastor and his wife are wonderful, but I am still not satisfied. This dissatisfaction in me came to a head in December, and since then I have been inquiring into the Orthodox Church. We will probably be converting within the year. I have hope now that I am on the path to union with The Holy Trinity.

[Mama2Many4]

I would say Catholic too if what you want is biblical. Can't get more biblical than Jesus Christ himself starting The Church.

[Hope in God]

Thank-you all for your words of encouragement!

 

I typed a long response yesterday but it was somehow lost. Although while I was typing things became clearer to me as sometimes occurs while typing everything out.

 

I think that churches that preach self-improvement messages are really, not to put it too srongly I hope, preaching an anti-gospel. The foundation of the gospel is man's lostness. The fact that no matter how much effort we used to free ourselves or find ourselves or improve ourselves, we would still be hopelessly lost. The entire Old Testament establishes that this is true. It also shows us that salvation is not through the law but through faith (I love reading the recap in Hebrews 11). We see in the New Testament that it is by grace that we have been saved, and that, through faith not through self improvement.

 

Ephesians 2:8-9

8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

 

If a church is afraid to approach the issue of sin and man's complete and utter lostness what foundation do they have to preach the gospel? We have been saved from the wrath of God but many churches would never think of preaching on the wrath of God. So if they do actually get to preaching a sort of gospel it is incomplete and doesn't make sense. We end up thinking that we really are okay and we don't need salvation. When I was younger and going to Christian school I remember thinking that it was a waste for Jesus to die because we really don't need to be saved.

 

So how can a church that preaches "your best life now" be preaching the gospel? Likewise, how can good fruit come from a church that is not preaching the gospel?

[staceyobu]

Thank-you all for your words of encouragement!

 

I typed a long response yesterday but it was somehow lost. Although while I was typing things became clearer to me as sometimes occurs while typing everything out.

 

I think that churches that preach self-improvement messages are really, not to put it too srongly I hope, preaching an anti-gospel. The foundation of the gospel is man's lostness. The fact that no matter how much effort we used to free ourselves or find ourselves or improve ourselves, we would still be hopelessly lost. The entire Old Testament establishes that this is true. It also shows us that salvation is not through the law but through faith (I love reading the recap in Hebrews 11). We see in the New Testament that it is by grace that we have been saved, and that, through faith not through self improvement.

 

Ephesians 2:8-9

8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

 

If a church is afraid to approach the issue of sin and man's complete and utter lostness what foundation do they have to preach the gospel? We have been saved from the wrath of God but many churches would never think of preaching on the wrath of God. So if they do actually get to preaching a sort of gospel it is incomplete and doesn't make sense. We end up thinking that we really are okay and we don't need salvation. When I was younger and going to Christian school I remember thinking that it was a waste for Jesus to die because we really don't need to be saved.

 

So how can a church that preaches "your best life now" be preaching the gospel? Likewise, how can good fruit come from a church that is not preaching the gospel?

 

I think you would be happy in a reformed church.

[simka2]

Thank-you all for your words of encouragement!

 

I typed a long response yesterday but it was somehow lost. Although while I was typing things became clearer to me as sometimes occurs while typing everything out.

 

I think that churches that preach self-improvement messages are really, not to put it too srongly I hope, preaching an anti-gospel. The foundation of the gospel is man's lostness. The fact that no matter how much effort we used to free ourselves or find ourselves or improve ourselves, we would still be hopelessly lost. The entire Old Testament establishes that this is true. It also shows us that salvation is not through the law but through faith (I love reading the recap in Hebrews 11). We see in the New Testament that it is by grace that we have been saved, and that, through faith not through self improvement.

 

Ephesians 2:8-9

8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

 

If a church is afraid to approach the issue of sin and man's complete and utter lostness what foundation do they have to preach the gospel? We have been saved from the wrath of God but many churches would never think of preaching on the wrath of God. So if they do actually get to preaching a sort of gospel it is incomplete and doesn't make sense. We end up thinking that we really are okay and we don't need salvation. When I was younger and going to Christian school I remember thinking that it was a waste for Jesus to die because we really don't need to be saved.

 

So how can a church that preaches "your best life now" be preaching the gospel? Likewise, how can good fruit come from a church that is not preaching the gospel?

I bolded the things I just cannot comprehend in your post. I do not know a God of Wrath. I have only ever known a God of Love. I always saw the foundation of the Gospel as God's amazing love for a broken sin sick humanity and His desire to see that healed.

 

Here is my understanding in a very simple illustration. http://ancientfaith.com/podcasts/stevethebuilder/love_wins_an_orthodox_view_of_salvation

 

I do wish you the best on your spiritual journey. :grouphug:

[Aquinas Academy]

I bolded the things I just cannot comprehend in your post. I do not know a God of Wrath. I have only ever known a God of Love. I always saw the foundation of the Gospel as God's amazing love for a broken sin sick humanity and His desire to see that healed.

 

Here is my understanding in a very simple illustration. http://ancientfaith.com/podcasts/stevethebuilder/love_wins_an_orthodox_view_of_salvation

 

I do wish you the best on your spiritual journey. :grouphug:

:iagree:I loved that video, Simka.

[Greta]

I can say that in the Orthodox Church, I have found there to be a truly awe-inspiring balance of NOT compromising on the gospel to accommodate changes in society or softening its message to make it more palatable to modern tastes, and yet also NOT being harsh or legalistic but meeting people where they are (and helping them heal and grow from there). It is truly beautiful. I hope and pray that you, too, find what you are looking for. :grouphug:

[mommaduck]

I think you would be happy in a reformed church.

 

If one is looking for the God of Wrath, then I would have to :iagree:

 

I bolded the things I just cannot comprehend in your post. I do not know a God of Wrath. I have only ever known a God of Love. I always saw the foundation of the Gospel as God's amazing love for a broken sin sick humanity and His desire to see that healed.

 

Here is my understanding in a very simple illustration. http://ancientfaith.com/podcasts/stevethebuilder/love_wins_an_orthodox_view_of_salvation

 

I do wish you the best on your spiritual journey. :grouphug:

:iagree: This is where I've found the God of Grace, Mercy, Love, and Peace.

[Carrie-txmama2six]

Thank-you all for your words of encouragement!

 

I typed a long response yesterday but it was somehow lost. Although while I was typing things became clearer to me as sometimes occurs while typing everything out.

 

I think that churches that preach self-improvement messages are really, not to put it too srongly I hope, preaching an anti-gospel. The foundation of the gospel is man's lostness. The fact that no matter how much effort we used to free ourselves or find ourselves or improve ourselves, we would still be hopelessly lost. The entire Old Testament establishes that this is true. It also shows us that salvation is not through the law but through faith (I love reading the recap in Hebrews 11). We see in the New Testament that it is by grace that we have been saved, and that, through faith not through self improvement.

 

Ephesians 2:8-9

8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

 

If a church is afraid to approach the issue of sin and man's complete and utter lostness what foundation do they have to preach the gospel? We have been saved from the wrath of God but many churches would never think of preaching on the wrath of God. So if they do actually get to preaching a sort of gospel it is incomplete and doesn't make sense. We end up thinking that we really are okay and we don't need salvation. When I was younger and going to Christian school I remember thinking that it was a waste for Jesus to die because we really don't need to be saved.

 

So how can a church that preaches "your best life now" be preaching the gospel? Likewise, how can good fruit come from a church that is not preaching the gospel?

I agree!!!

[staceyobu]

I bolded the things I just cannot comprehend in your post. I do not know a God of Wrath. I have only ever known a God of Love. I always saw the foundation of the Gospel as God's amazing love for a broken sin sick humanity and His desire to see that healed.

 

Here is my understanding in a very simple illustration. http://ancientfaith.com/podcasts/stevethebuilder/love_wins_an_orthodox_view_of_salvation

 

I do wish you the best on your spiritual journey. :grouphug:

 

Did he mean that the Orthodox church does not recognize hell or a place of eternal separation from God?

[Caitilin]

Did he mean that the Orthodox church does not recognize hell or a place of eternal separation from God?

 

The Orthodox view is that those who are in hell experience God's love just as much as do those who are in heaven. The difference is that, through their own choices, those in hell experience that Love as pain and torment, while those in heaven experience it as joy and peace. God does not force himself on humanity; humans make their own choices, whether that means to draw nearer God to draw further away from Him.:001_smile:

[mommaduck]

Did he mean that the Orthodox church does not recognize hell or a place of eternal separation from God?

Orthodox view of Hell

 

Yes, Hell is recognised. No, it's not viewed as a place of eternal separation from God. Instead, it's being in God's Presence that causes torment for some.

Edited October 18, 2011 by mommaduck

[simka2]

Did he mean that the Orthodox church does not recognize hell or a place of eternal separation from God?

 

The Orthodox view is that those who are in hell experience God's love just as much as do those who are in heaven. The difference is that, through their own choices, those in hell experience that Love as pain and torment, while those in heaven experience it as joy and peace. God does not force himself on humanity; humans make their own choices, whether that means to draw nearer God to draw further away from Him.:001_smile:

 

Orthodox view of Hell

 

Yes, Hell is recognised. No, it's not viewed as a place of eternal separation from God. Instead, it's being in God's Presence that causes torment for some.

The above ladies said it much better than I could. ;) Just a note, this is not some newfangled idea. It was she Church's teaching long before the Reformation. :001_smile:

 

Edited to add: This is addressed generally, I am more than happy to answer any questions via pm's that I am able. I did not want to totally derail the OP's thread. The post I originally responded to was a bit confusing for me. Even in my Protestant days I did not know a wrathful God. :)

Edited October 18, 2011 by simka2

[Hope in God]

I really hear all of you about the 'God's wrath' thing. I was never taught anything about this dimension of God but then comes the question- what was in the cup that Jesus drank on the cross? When Jesus pleaded in the garden three times for his father to take the cup away from him and each time he also resigned "not my will but yours be done"- what was he asking for God to take from him. Did he sweat drops of blood because her was afraid of death? I don't think so.

 

It was the cup of God's wrath. Jesus was the mediator between us and God and he drank the cup of God's wrath that was OURS in order that God's justice be satisfied and we would be reconciled to God.

 

So many churches malign the character of God by only preaching a two dimensional picture of God. He is the Lion and the Lamb. He is both just and merciful. How could God be just and at the same time let wrong go unpunished?

 

The word wrath is mentioned 181 times in the Bible and many of those times it is refereing to God's wrath. If the church were to preach from the Word how could they avoid teaching on the wrath of God- especially in reference to the gospel?

 

John 3:36

36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them.

[mommaduck]

I really hear all of you about the 'God's wrath' thing. I was never taught anything about this dimension of God but then comes the question- what was in the cup that Jesus drank on the cross? When Jesus pleaded in the garden three times for his father to take the cup away from him and each time he also resigned "not my will but yours be done"- what was he asking for God to take from him. Did he sweat drops of blood because her was afraid of death? I don't think so.

 

It was the cup of God's wrath. Jesus was the mediator between us and God and he drank the cup of God's wrath that was OURS in order that God's justice be satisfied and we would be reconciled to God.

 

So many churches malign the character of God by only preaching a two dimensional picture of God. He is the Lion and the Lamb. He is both just and merciful. How could God be just and at the same time let wrong go unpunished?

 

The word wrath is mentioned 181 times in the Bible and many of those times it is refereing to God's wrath. If the church were to preach from the Word how could they avoid teaching on the wrath of God- especially in reference to the gospel?

 

John 3:36

36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them.

Just is different from Wrath. Also, since coming into the EO, I've found that as a Protestant, even Reformed, we only heard HALF the story...talk about two dimensional! Ex: Do YOU know the history of Saint Stephen before he became a martyr?

 

I would have to look up the actual translation of the verses that use "wrath" to see what KIND of wrath is meant and if the verse is even translated correctly. I'm in a Greek Church. Greek is the first language of these people. I have found quite a few things that are mistranslated in English Protestant Bibles. I've even seen where one verse was entirely replaced to mean something else.

[simka2]

I really hear all of you about the 'God's wrath' thing. I was never taught anything about this dimension of God but then comes the question- what was in the cup that Jesus drank on the cross? When Jesus pleaded in the garden three times for his father to take the cup away from him and each time he also resigned "not my will but yours be done"- what was he asking for God to take from him. Did he sweat drops of blood because her was afraid of death? I don't think so.

 

It was the cup of God's wrath. Jesus was the mediator between us and God and he drank the cup of God's wrath that was OURS in order that God's justice be satisfied and we would be reconciled to God.

 

So many churches malign the character of God by only preaching a two dimensional picture of God. He is the Lion and the Lamb. He is both just and merciful. How could God be just and at the same time let wrong go unpunished?

 

The word wrath is mentioned 181 times in the Bible and many of those times it is refereing to God's wrath. If the church were to preach from the Word how could they avoid teaching on the wrath of God- especially in reference to the gospel?

 

John 3:36

36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them.

I am not sure I want to respond as this goes a bit out of my depth and is very different from what I originally learned at seminary. For example, when studying church history at seminary it went from the epistles straight to the Reformation. Uuuummm, there is a huge amount of history between those 2 pints.

 

The simple non-exhaustive answer is this: God's love is experienced as wrath to those who do not want it. They will feel His love, but because they do not want it it will not feel like love...it will feel like wrath.

 

The notes in my Orthodox bible on that particular verse say, "John echoes the teaching of Christ Himself (v. 18). Note the absence of the word "alone" in this statement of faith. "We do not from this assert that faith alone is sufficent for salvation; the directions for living that are given in many places of the Gospels, show this." (John Chrysostom) See also James 2:14-24

 

 

It sounds to me you are really struggling with people taking their faith seriously, their God seriously. Orthodoxy handles this problem a bit differently. Orthodoxy doesn't have a once saved always saved doctrine. Salvation occurs at death. Therefore we have great motivation to continue to grow in our faith, all throughout our lives. Not out of fear, per se, but simply because we cannot take anything for granted.

 

There is more about this in this discussion, because Orthodoxy is not black and white like other things. We can know we have relationship with God, we just do not have a Doctrine of "once saved always saved."

 

http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/group.php?do=discuss&group=&discussionid=2065

 

Hope that helps!

[Carol in Cal.]

Thank-you all for your words of encouragement!

 

I typed a long response yesterday but it was somehow lost. Although while I was typing things became clearer to me as sometimes occurs while typing everything out.

 

I think that churches that preach self-improvement messages are really, not to put it too srongly I hope, preaching an anti-gospel. The foundation of the gospel is man's lostness. The fact that no matter how much effort we used to free ourselves or find ourselves or improve ourselves, we would still be hopelessly lost. The entire Old Testament establishes that this is true. It also shows us that salvation is not through the law but through faith (I love reading the recap in Hebrews 11). We see in the New Testament that it is by grace that we have been saved, and that, through faith not through self improvement.

 

Ephesians 2:8-9

8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

 

If a church is afraid to approach the issue of sin and man's complete and utter lostness what foundation do they have to preach the gospel? We have been saved from the wrath of God but many churches would never think of preaching on the wrath of God. So if they do actually get to preaching a sort of gospel it is incomplete and doesn't make sense. We end up thinking that we really are okay and we don't need salvation. When I was younger and going to Christian school I remember thinking that it was a waste for Jesus to die because we really don't need to be saved.

 

So how can a church that preaches "your best life now" be preaching the gospel? Likewise, how can good fruit come from a church that is not preaching the gospel?

 

The other thing about preaching 'your best life now' and the 'name it and claim it' stuff is that it completely ignores the clear truth that those material things are not promised in the first place. If they were, why would Paul never have been freed from his 'thorn in the side'? Why would Stephen have been martyred? etc. The Gospel is God's good news for all, but not necessarily an easy life for all. It transcends this life and puts us in eternal life starting while we are still on earth. "Our citizenship is in heaven" is what the Bible says about this.

 

I have a great book recommendation for you about law and Gospel. It's online at the following link: http://www.lutherantheology.com/uploads/works/walther/LG/

 

It is pretty dry, but you're a WTM homeschooler so you can handle it! I first read it in college and it gave me a lot to think about. Start with the theses, and then go back to the preface/intro and through the book bit by bit. There is a reader's edition that is corrected available from Concordia Publishing House as well--but the link is free.

[Ellie]

I can say that in the Orthodox Church, I have found there to be a truly awe-inspiring balance of NOT compromising on the gospel to accommodate changes in society or softening its message to make it more palatable to modern tastes, and yet also NOT being harsh or legalistic but meeting people where they are (and helping them heal and grow from there). It is truly beautiful. I hope and pray that you, too, find what you are looking for. :grouphug:

That's what I found in the Catholic Church, as well. :)

[MissKNG]

One huge example of God's wrath - read Revelation.

[mommaduck]

I can say that in the Orthodox Church, I have found there to be a truly awe-inspiring balance of NOT compromising on the gospel to accommodate changes in society or softening its message to make it more palatable to modern tastes, and yet also NOT being harsh or legalistic but meeting people where they are (and helping them heal and grow from there). It is truly beautiful. I hope and pray that you, too, find what you are looking for. :grouphug:

:iagree: beautifully stated

[Rose in BC]

I'm right there with you on the 'seeker sensitive' stuff. Believer's need to have a 'believers meeting' they can attend, so as to grow in the word. Evangelism is separate from the believers meeting.

 

 

:iagree:

[mommaduck]

One huge example of God's wrath - read Revelation.

Only if you are pre-trib, rapture, and all that. I'm not. My understanding is that Revelations barely made it into the canon.

[caedmyn]

Have not read the responses so this may have gone off into a different direction entirely, but have you considered a Church of Christ? They are the only churches I'm aware of that follow the Bible only without any man-made doctrines. Which is not to say that some of them don't soft-pedal the truth or go with the mega-church mentality...but there are some good ones out there.

[milovany]

They are the only churches I'm aware of that follow the Bible only without any man-made doctrines.

 

:D Everyone would (and pretty much does) say this about their own church, don't they? :D

 

I personally do think the church you mentioned is full of manmade doctrines; just like you probably think mine is. :001_smile:

[MamaCoop04]

Have you read Radical by David Platt?? I think you'll like it :)

[Greta]

That's what I found in the Catholic Church, as well. :)

 

Oh, that's wonderful! I have no direct, personal experience of Catholicism. But I have noticed with my Catholic friends that there is a certain . . . I don't know, a quiet peace about the way they live out their faith. I'm probably not expressing that well, but trust me, I do mean it as a compliment! :D

 

 

beautifully stated

 

:blushing: Thanks, but if so, then the words did not come from me. :001_smile:

[ChocolateReignRemix]

:D Everyone would (and pretty much does) say this about their own church, don't they? :D

 

I personally do think the church you mentioned is full of manmade doctrines; just like you probably think mine is. :001_smile:

 

 

Exactly. All churches are full of man-made doctrines and interpretations.

[milovany]

Exactly. All churches are full of man-made doctrines and interpretations.

 

 

Ummm, that's not what I said. :tongue_smilie:

[Hope in God]

Exactly. All churches are full of man-made doctrines and interpretations.

 

:iagree:

I guess it is hard not to interpret things as a [hu]man because that is just what we are.

 

Thank-you again for all your ideas. I am going to check out some of these suggestions.

 

I have heard good things about the book Justification and Regeneration by Charles Leiter. Anyone read this?

 

Anyone here check out Calvary Chapel churches and would be willing to share their experiences?