Christians- should teenagers be spanked?

[Carol in Cal.]

1. Effective Biblical arguments: "Fathers, do not provoke your children to wrath."

2. Effective semi-Biblical argument: Suggest that they read "Dare to Discipline" by James Dobson. Those who advocate physical punishment for Christian homes often cite this book and this author, so he has credibility with them. And, IIRC, he says not to spank after age 8 or so. (Check first. But definately by age 10.) He has also said in one of his books that someone who is of age should not submit to this--that that would be a sick situation. I wish that I could remember which book it was, but I don't. It was in a Q and A section toward the back of one of his later books.

3. It is inconceivable to me that anyone could think that someone bending over to receive punishment means that they agree with it. That is just ridiculous. In households where physical punishment is ongoing and anger and judgement rule rather than grace, no girl would be brave enough to stand up for herself in that situation unless she had a weapon and an independent means of support. And maybe not even then. Anyone who knows ANYTHING about domestic violence would see immediately that this practice sets her up for spousal abuse down the road, totally.

 

I can understand your wanting to speak the truth in love in this situation, but I have to say that if my children were hearing this kind of conversation or teaching from their church leaders, I would have to find another church. And I am not one to leave churches lightly or quickly, but that would be a showstopper for me.

[Brindee]

Now, my husband says that he absolutely agrees but the spanking would look more like a whipping than a spanking and that young man or woman would think twice about dishonoring our name and our God again (think the woodshed out back in the old days)...in other words it wouldn't be a little child spanking, but a serious punishment fit for a man or woman, for a serious, serious offense of our home and our God.

But then they (and the pastor's children with their parents) would "serve" you out of fear! Our God doesn't force people to serve Him out of fear!

 

:grouphug:

[RebeccaC]

Romans 13:1

Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.

 

 

Titus 3:1

Put them in mind to be in subjection to rulers, to authorities, to be obedient, to be ready unto every good work,

 

As to the fact that these mothers are setting themselves up for battery and assault charges I might ask how their actions come into alignment with these verses. The law of the land say no and are they subumitting to the governing authorities, rulers or not. If they are not in alignment what does that say about rebellion in their own hearts. Just know that you will not win the argument but they might think about what you say later.

 

My mother nearly lost all of her children for beating her teenage daughter, whose welts were visible at ps. All it takes is for one teen in the family to get fed up and place a call to the authorities and these gals will be signing another tune.

[gandpsmommy]

I do not believe in spanking...at all, at any age.

:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree: I am raising two beautiful children who had to ask me recently what the word "spank" means. They have never been hit by adults, and yet they are remarkable children. Just like all other children, they are not perfect. But they are wonderful people, who friends, relatives, acquaintances, and perfect strangers often compliment on their pleasantness and good behavior. And like all other parents, dh and I are not perfect. But we try very hard to teach them appropriate behavior, how to make good decisions, how to treat other people thoughtfully and respectfully. It makes me physically ill to hear about people who use the Bible to justify and endorse hitting children, and it makes no sense whatsoever to me to use the Bible to justify and endorse hitting adults, either.

[Sweetpeach]

For the first time in a long time, I read every single response in this thread.

 

No surprise what I think about this: absolutely inappropriate to spank teenage children, and in terms of worshipping at the church, my only response is "run for the hills and quickly." People fully engrained in such dysfunction will not take kindly to a sweet, young lady pointing out that they are doing the parenting thing wrong.

 

My question for you, Calming Tea is this: In terms of your own beliefs, would you call yourself a first-generation Christian?

 

T

[BMW]

This isn't easy to share and I hope it isn't too long.

 

I left a domestic violence situation after 17 years of marriage. The Bible and my Christian faith were used to control me and spanking was an issue. I was in fear of losing my children, though I didn't spank them often and never left bruises/welts, my spouse did. He tried convincing me over and over that punitive ways were best and Biblical. He did not lead or teach with love. He actually said that we were to fear God and that as God's leader of the family, the children should fear him. That fear was to keep them obedient. Didn't work. Children grow up and see hypocrisy. My 16 yr. old dd had enough and ran away (only a couple of days) and set things in motion which made me face the ridiculous, horrible truth of what we were living. I could have easily had my children taken away, and now after the divorce, the dad hasn't seen my children for over a year and he wont do what the court says to do in order to see them.

 

I lived with Christian Biblical legalism controling my life in many ways. You've heard lots of great responses. I urge you to get quiet in your heart and seek God. Punitive legalism leads to rebellion. And when children are raised in it, they don't know any better but to submit to it, thinking it is right. Trust me, I still see it in some of my children who are learning that it's not right to violate people physically (yes, even with spankings) and it's not right to treat family members as possessions and it's not right to control them. Raise children, pass on your beliefs, rasie them in the truth of God's love and Word, but when they grow up, allow them to think and decide some things for themselves and in the safety of home - and guide them with love and convictions. And pray.

 

Still learning,

Bee

[gandpsmommy]

I very, very much agree with you, Elaine. I can't imagine that there aren't other incredibly controlling, legalistic parenting ideas being taught that can absolutely poison a parent-child relationship. If I were that 18 year old girl, generally well-behaved (though, how silly is that, as though she's 10, she's an adult) and my parents shamed me in this way...I'd be out of there so fast their heads would spin, and if my dad as the pastor made me think THIS is what the church and a relationship with Christ was about, I'd probably leave that behind too.

 

I know. I think that it is incredibly sad to hear of any child, teenager, or adult being abused. But it saddens and sickens me even more to hear people trying to attribute this behavior to following Christ. I can't imagine why anyone who wasn't already a Christian and knew this reasoning to be false would want to have anything to do with Christianity after hearing abuse justified as "raising godly children" and trying to be "Christian" parents.

[Jackie in AR]

This isn't easy to share and I hope it isn't too long.

 

I left a domestic violence situation after 17 years of marriage. The Bible and my Christian faith were used to control me and spanking was an issue. I was in fear of losing my children, though I didn't spank them often and never left bruises/welts, my spouse did. He tried convincing me over and over that punitive ways were best and Biblical. He did not lead or teach with love. He actually said that we were to fear God and that as God's leader of the family, the children should fear him. That fear was to keep them obedient. Didn't work. Children grow up and see hypocrisy. My 16 yr. old dd had enough and ran away (only a couple of days) and set things in motion which made me face the ridiculous, horrible truth of what we were living. I could have easily had my children taken away, and now after the divorce, the dad hasn't seen my children for over a year and he wont do what the court says to do in order to see them.

 

I lived with Christian Biblical legalism controling my life in many ways. You've heard lots of great responses. I urge you to get quiet in your heart and seek God. Punitive legalism leads to rebellion. And when children are raised in it, they don't know any better but to submit to it, thinking it is right. Trust me, I still see it in some of my children who are learning that it's not right to violate people physically (yes, even with spankings) and it's not right to treat family members as possessions and it's not right to control them. Raise children, pass on your beliefs, rasie them in the truth of God's love and Word, but when they grow up, allow them to think and decide some things for themselves and in the safety of home - and guide them with love and convictions. And pray.

 

Still learning,

Bee

 

 

Bee,

 

Thank you for having the courage to share your story.

 

I am glad that you and your dc are now out of that abusive situation.

 

Blessing to you and your family.

[Margo out of lurking]

I wish I had time to research this a little, but here are some things that come to mind.

 

I would look into the Greek translation of the word "child" in the verse to which your friend is relying. (I understand though that they are considering the behavior "childish," but that seems to me to be outside the context of the verse.) I would find Biblical examples of the shepherd's rod GUIDING, not beating.

 

Spanking an 18 yo is battery, and we are instructed Biblically to follow the laws of our countries.

 

I would ask her to consider "heart issues," referring to Matt 23:25-26 (cleaning the inside of the cup is more important than cleaning the outside).

 

Wow. To think I was surprised yesterday when a local mom mentioned she spanked her 10yodd...

[...................]

You guys gave me lots to think about and consider.

 

My husband and I talked about it and we are going to go to the women in question and address them on the issue. If they refuse to listen, we will have to escalate this to a higher authority. (as per Matthew 18)

 

My husband said they are perfectly within their legal right to spank a 17 year old, and the law would argue maybe an 18 year old if she agrees to it.

 

He explained that the stronger spouse (our pastor) is often away (he works far away for many days) and busy, and that she, who is not good at communicating and often overwhelmed, is left with this as her last recourse of getting her teenagers to listen to her. That basically, she stinks at parenting and that is why he has allowed this last action.

 

Though I still see it as far worse of an issue than dh, I certainly can see why he is not ready to jump ship over this issue.

 

However my dh said regardless of that, it's just plain unwise, and certainly illegal for the 18 year old and not socially acceptable over all.

 

So hopefully we'll get some action in this area. I have to pray and hope for the best.

[Joanne]

My husband said they are perfectly within their legal right to spank a 17 year old, and the law would argue maybe an 18 year old if she agrees to it.

 

He explained that the stronger spouse (our pastor) is often away (he works far away for many days) and busy, and that she, who is not good at communicating and often overwhelmed, is left with this as her last recourse of getting her teenagers to listen to her. That basically, she stinks at parenting and that is why he has allowed this last action.

 

Though I still see it as far worse of an issue than dh, I certainly can see why he is not ready to jump ship over this issue.

 

 

Calming Tea,

 

I don't know how to gently say what I am about to say. Sometimes "we" don't see things as "not acceptable" or "not normal" when we are immersed in them. I know I was there for a long time in some regards. I didn't know what I didn't know; I didn't know that some(things) in my life were *way* not ok.

 

All that to say if I had a husband/father of my kids who thought like the quotes above, I would be very, deeply concerned. The thinking represented in the quotes above is unwell, not good or acceptable parenting and disturbing.

[RebeccaC]

My husband said they are perfectly within their legal right to spank a 17 year old, and the law would argue maybe an 18 year old if she agrees to it.

 

.

 

I don't know what state you live in but it is not legal in all states and it takes just one social worker or police officer or.... to be of the opinion that it has escalated to abuse to make it illegal. Or for the 18 yo to state that they did not agree and then it is mom's word against an 18 on whether there was agreement or not. I would imagine then it would be up to a judge to decide and I doubt they would find in favor of mom.

[Jami]

He explained that the stronger spouse (our pastor) is often away (he works far away for many days) and busy, and that she, who is not good at communicating and often overwhelmed, is left with this as her last recourse of getting her teenagers to listen to her. That basically, she stinks at parenting and that is why he has allowed this last action.

 

If this is the situation, if this man's household is in this much disorder, he should not be in the position of teaching anyone. He does not meet the Biblical qualifications to be an elder in the church. Now I know there are teens who despite amazing, loving parenting still dishonor their parents, but if his wife is overwhelmed and the children are generally defiant, then there's a problem and I would not submit to this man's leadership.

[Just a Jen in Mississippi]

I've skimmed all the posts and I agree with the major consensus that teens should not be spanked for the reasons of "provoking them to wrath". For what it's worth, I married my high school sweet-heart 16 days after I turned 18!! I can't imagine getting a spanking from my parents at that age!! That's just absurd to me. I just think if you want a teen to start acting his or her age, you will have to treat them as such and not as a child needing a spanking! I can't imagine how degrading that would be!

[OnTheBrink]

If this is the situation, if this man's household is in this much disorder, he should not be in the position of teaching anyone. He does not meet the Biblical qualifications to be an elder in the church. Now I know there are teens who despite amazing, loving parenting still dishonor their parents, but if his wife is overwhelmed and the children are generally defiant, then there's a problem and I would not submit to this man's leadership.

 

:iagree:

[covenant.christian]

I think it depends on the age of the child, but I have always thought after 14 was unnecessary. But, that could be my kids too.

[LibraryLover]

:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree: I am raising two beautiful children who had to ask me recently what the word "spank" means. They have never been hit by adults, and yet they are remarkable children..

 

 

:iagree: We've never spanked our children. I can't imagine my dh laying a hand on our children like that. I appreciate those folks who believe it's possible to raise a family without anyone being struck. I was spanked as a child, but my dh was never. I think he's a much more together person than I am, fwiw. :tongue_smilie:

[Fourmother]

I haven't read all the responses, so forgive me if I'm repeating what someone else has said. I think trying to change this woman's mind is an exercise in futility. You can no more change her mind than she can successfully parent an 18 year old adult. You could construct the soundest biblical argument, only to have it dismissed again and again. Sometimes we are so convinced of our "rightness," or perhaps righteousness, that we can't hear reason when it is presented to us by others, or unfortunately even by God. This family will have to learn by suffering the consequences of their choices. Just like we all do I guess.

 

Her adult children will put a stop to this by standing up for themselves, leaving the house or both. I can only hope that they do it in a healthy way. There is a danger that while fleeing their parents' dysfunctional home, they could be running toward something even worse. Sadly, unless there was an eminent danger of abuse directed at her children, I would quietly distance myself from this woman or at least stop discussing this subject with her.

[...................]

my dh and I are both first generation christians.

 

My dh is dead set against leaving because he feels that however unwise (and we have been the ones to address the problems several times with the pastor)...that he is a charter member and there are no other churches nearby where he would learn a bit of theology. Mostly fluff...

 

He feels he can't sit under someone that just isn't going to deliver any messages that will teach him in deep theological Reform terms, and I feel like I can't sit under these people who are the blind leading the blind -they are very unwise. Though loving, loyal people, there's a lot of problems in their family.

 

I think my dh assumes that with his strong leadership of our own home and my more logical ways of thinking, that we are not prone to fall in with their lack of understanding in key areas.

[Carol in Cal.]

My husband and I talked about it and we are going to go to the women in question and address them on the issue. If they refuse to listen, we will have to escalate this to a higher authority. (as per Matthew 18)

 

My husband said they are perfectly within their legal right to spank a 17 year old, and the law would argue maybe an 18 year old if she agrees to it.

 

He explained that the stronger spouse (our pastor) is often away (he works far away for many days) and busy, and that she, who is not good at communicating and often overwhelmed, is left with this as her last recourse of getting her teenagers to listen to her. That basically, she stinks at parenting and that is why he has allowed this last action.

 

 

 

It is disturbing to me that the explanation about the pastor and his wife would seem to justify their behavior. Sometimes to understand is not necessarily to forgive.

 

I am glad that you and your DH are in agreement that this issue needs to be addressed. I hope that you are ready, and I mean this very very gently, not to be listened to. I hope that you are ready for the high possibility that you might end up cornered into needing to leave your fellowship if you pursue this. And, FWIW, I think that you are doing to the right thing in not letting this slide!

[*anj*]

If this is the situation, if this man's household is in this much disorder, he should not be in the position of teaching anyone.

 

[PiCO]

I do have lots of links and research, opinions and ideas on spanking and Christianity. But I'm not going to pull them out; it would obscure the real issue here.

 

The real issue is that spanking older children in general and teenagers/legal adults is absolutely, positively and completely inappropriate on many levels. I would seriously question any parent/family who embraced this thought.

 

Just a summary of concerns:

 

1) Coaching, guiding, discipline and admonishment needs to be applied with wisdom, grace and in a safe environment. While I believe you can be a terrific parent and include spanking as a tool in the early years, spanking should be out of the picture well before teen years.

 

2) The legalism involved with quoting rod passages justifying spanking a legal adult is creepy and speaks to other issues I'd have concerns with.

 

3) There are sexual connotations with spanking "children" of that age. I'm not saying the parents who spank are getting sexual thrills or that is what motivations them. I *am* saying that applying adult hands on near adult bottoms in a forceful manner IS a sexual/body violation.

 

4) The family dynamic that needs to be in place for this to happen has to be, by definition, not completely well (at best).

 

I would not only be concerned for this family, I'd leave this church without question.

 

 

Brilliant, brilliant, brilliant. I'm not allowed to give you any more good rep, Joanne- so I had to comment here.

[Jackie in AR]

If this is the situation, if this man's household is in this much disorder, he should not be in the position of teaching anyone. He does not meet the Biblical qualifications to be an elder in the church. Now I know there are teens who despite amazing, loving parenting still dishonor their parents, but if his wife is overwhelmed and the children are generally defiant, then there's a problem and I would not submit to this man's leadership.

 

Yes, yes, yes!!

[percytruffle]

my dh and I are both first generation christians.

 

My dh is dead set against leaving because he feels that however unwise (and we have been the ones to address the problems several times with the pastor)...that he is a charter member and there are no other churches nearby where he would learn a bit of theology. Mostly fluff...

 

He feels he can't sit under someone that just isn't going to deliver any messages that will teach him in deep theological Reform terms, and I feel like I can't sit under these people who are the blind leading the blind -they are very unwise. Though loving, loyal people, there's a lot of problems in their family.

 

I think my dh assumes that with his strong leadership of our own home and my more logical ways of thinking, that we are not prone to fall in with their lack of understanding in key areas.

 

(((CT))) I am concerned for you. You are playing with fire and are likely to get burned. Please pray together as a couple that God will direct you to a place where you can grow and be encouraged in His truth, not the words and ideas of a flock who are not on the right path. Whenever I have had a serious need in my life and I have prayed fervently, He has not let me down. Do not think this church is your only option. It may appear that way, but we do not always see the other options available to us until we ask God to show us the way and he opens our eyes. Just ask Him.

 

I agree whole-heartedly with those above who stated that your pastor does not fulfill the Biblical mandates to shepherd a flock.

[Retired]

for every thing.My first sparks of rebellion were directly related to "spoil the child* spare the rod"** I remember being 11 and my dad still spanking me.* I was embarrassed and it just started the absolute hate(rebellion) toward my parents, Church, and God that lasted till I was 30 yo.* I just believe a spanking* is not effective discipline after the preschool years.* I can only imagine the resentment building up in these teens.* When I turned 18, I wanted to show my parents what a bad person I really could be.* Since they thought all the spankings were the only form of parenting.This is still a sore spot.I did forgive my parents and have a great relationship now but it was a long time before I forgave.

[Elaine]

If this is the situation, if this man's household is in this much disorder, he should not be in the position of teaching anyone.

 

Amen and Amen!

[Kelli in TN]

I have been thinking about this the whole time I was at Kroger. Except for when I was grumbling about prices, of course.

 

I am not in the never spank crowd and I don't think I ever will be. But I think spanking should be very, very rare and only for children that cannot reason yet. A minor swat on the hiney for the toddler who is endangering himself with a full on temper tantrum is not likely to cause emotional damage.

 

My oldest three got spanked all. the. time. We followed parenting formulas that were punitive in nature. Yeah. The proof is in the pudding there. Lots of damage and broken relationships.

 

The younger three have been raised by different parents. They look just like the parents who raised the other three (well, older, wider versions) but their childhood is drastically different. I was trying to picture myself even swatting my 10 year old and I could not comprehend how I would do such a thing. That is how far God has brought me as a mom. My 13 year old? I swatted his arm with a rolled up paperback math book the other day, but it made him laugh so how serious do you think I was? I still have to gently swat my 8 year old on the rear every once in a great while when he gets so wound up and emotional (angry) that all other attempts to get his attention fail me.

 

God has brought me so far from those parenting philosophies that I can no longer even relate to that mindset.

 

It's been an interesting thread for me in that it led me to think on these things. I think I might make a good lab rat, since I have the with and without comparisons when it comes to corporal punishment.

[Sahamamama]

"Fathers, do not exasperate your children; instead, bring them up in the training and instruction of the Lord."

 

I don't think that spanking at that age is effective. It also may reveal an underlying problem on the part of the parents with control and anger issues, however "ritualized" the spankings are.

[CLHCO]

They say the Bible is black and white and that it's my conditioning by society to be against spanking teenagers.

 

"History," Martin Luther said, "is like a drunk man on a horse. No sooner does he fall off on the left side does he mount again and fall off on the right."

 

I would charge that in this case, they are correct because we all have conditioning by society and their conditioning is making them leap so far that they fall off the on the right. We should all check ourselves regularly to make sure we're actually on the horse.

[OnTheBrink]

my dh and I are both first generation christians.

 

My dh is dead set against leaving because he feels that however unwise (and we have been the ones to address the problems several times with the pastor)...that he is a charter member and there are no other churches nearby where he would learn a bit of theology. Mostly fluff...

 

He feels he can't sit under someone that just isn't going to deliver any messages that will teach him in deep theological Reform terms, and I feel like I can't sit under these people who are the blind leading the blind -they are very unwise. Though loving, loyal people, there's a lot of problems in their family.

 

I think my dh assumes that with his strong leadership of our own home and my more logical ways of thinking, that we are not prone to fall in with their lack of understanding in key areas.

 

Honey, your last paragraph concerns me. It's a dangerous thing to lean on yourself, on your own understanding and logic and to assume that that alone will keep you out of trouble. People are easily deceived. Eve walked with God herself and yet was deceived. Your dh may be a very strong leader, but strong leaders are only as strong as what they're taught by their own leaders. Never assume you're above being deceived. And, deception doesn't come with a blaring fanfare. It can creep in in small steps, often a slow, wearing away of convictions that leads to compromise that leads to assimilation to bad theology. Pray fervently over whether you need to stay in this church. Charter memberships don't mean squat to God. You can love people and not be in their erroneous midst. I hope this makes sense; that I've communicated clearly what I'm trying to say. I'm in no way criticizing your dh or you. You're both young and young in the Lord, so I hope what I've said will give you something to consider and pray over. Blessings to you and yours.

[gardenschooler]

Calming Tea, I'm not going to flame you.

 

But this is so heartbreaking. Why can't you see this is abuse?

 

I don't have much to say that would be constructive, so I'll keep it short. I hope you and your dh will very prayerfully consider if this is the kind of leadership that you really need in a church.

[Jami]

Sandra, you're in FL aren't you? In a metropolitan area? I'm *sure* there are Reformed churches where you would find sound theological teaching. Reformed theology is often called "the doctrines of grace" and I think you need to find a place where there is a deeper understanding of God's grace, and our need to live out grace in the home and in all areas of life. You might try the Presbyterian Church in America, Orthodox Presbyterian Church, Confederation of Reformed Evangelical Churches, Sovereign Grace churches, a Reformed Baptist church, etc.

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

Now, my husband says that he absolutely agrees but the spanking would look more like a whipping than a spanking and that young man or woman would think twice about dishonoring our name and our God again (think the woodshed out back in the old days)...in other words it wouldn't be a little child spanking, but a serious punishment fit for a man or woman, for a serious, serious offense of our home and our God.

 

(Edited to say I asked him about this on the phone and he said I totally misunderstood this- he was talking about Biblical caning- which was a last recourse before stoning I guess. He was basically saying you can't do that now, so it's a moot point- that spanking a teenager by the definition we mean would be totally ridiculous and the Biblcal way obviously is illegal and hopefully unnecessary anyway.)

 

 

 

I was whipped as a young teen, and this brought about a rift between me and my parents that's never been repaired.

 

If you've read any of my posts about my parents in the past, you'll know that I want no part in dishonoring them, to the point where I will live a lifestyle that I do not choose in order to give them respect and not bring them to grief. I love them and believe they did the very best they knew how in rearing me and launching me out into the world (or something akin to the world) at age 17. They sacrificed greatly for me. They are kind, dear people who thought they were doing the Biblical thing by whipping me to the point that even the most staunch defender of spanking would call social services. (It drew blood and I still have scars.)

 

But that last whipping caused a rift -- a psychological one, a fundamental one -- of trust and of deep disappointment that will never, ever heal. That relationship will always have scars that will not allow some feelings to be felt because those nerves are dead. My close relationships are harmed even to this day, even though I'm not carrying around an "It's not my fault! It's all their fault" attitude. It is what it is, though.

 

The respect they hoped to be winning -- my father by whipping me and mother for standing by and watching -- just evaporated that day. There are things I do respect in them as good people, and I honor them as I said as my parents. But something was lost that day, something I can't put my finger on to even define, and it's never coming back again. They provoked me... not to wrath, exactly, but I guess to harden my heart out of self-preservation. I'm not sure that's not even worse than wrath.

[Jami]

:grouphug: ((Pam))

[Marie in Oh]

that just saddens me. I can't imagine. :grouphug:

[momtoboys]

I haven't read the all the replies, but the topic caught my eye. No, absolutely not, do I believe teenagers should be spanked, and my boys will not be. There are other ways to discipline teenagers.

[abbeyej]

You might try ...

 

Also, if you happen to be in Orlando, there's a Reformed Presbyterian Church. I believe it's the only one in Florida, but it's also a very conservative Reformed denomination...

[Retired]

I always wanted my mom to defend me, she just stood there. I wanted her to say just once for my dad to stop. It does harden your heart. It took me years to forgive. We have a very loving relationship now. It helped that my father said he was wrong. He was a new christian and listened to what the church was preaching at the time.

 

hugs

 

April (AKA Cafelattee)

[6packofun]

An older teen is much too close to adulthood for spanking to be an effective OR respectful method of discipline, IMO.

 

When I was growing up, my mom and I were not Christians. She spanked and slapped quite a bit, but when I reached 14 and she smacked my face one time, it was the last because I slapped her back and told her not to ever do it again but that I'd respect any other discipline. It was humiliating to me even though no one else saw, especially when I was still looking to her as a parent for self-control.

 

I know that some say that they can spank with complete control and not in anger, but the teen years are a time when mutual respect becomes very important. Spanking says, "I still need to treat you as a young child and physical pain has to be part of your training until you leave this house. At work or school or in every other relationship, no one is allowed to touch you in a painful way, but I still am."

 

BALONEY.

[3lilreds in NC]

I don't have anything useful to add. This thread makes me cry.

 

:grouphug: to Pam and Cafelattee. I would hug you for a long, long time IRL if you shared that with me.

 

:grouphug: to Calming Tea. This is such a hard thing for you. I pray that you and your dh can see that you need to hold to God, not the particular church you attend. If they believe in this kind of abuse for their children, I shudder to think what other insidious "doctrine" they preach. I have to believe that you do not attend the only worthwhile church in your area and I pray that God will lead you elsewhere.

 

:grouphug: to all the ladies on this board. I am a better (and still learning) parent because of all of you.

[VaKim]

I don't think the rod is spanking-- The rod was a used by a shepherd to direct the paths of his sheep. He would correct his flock when they wandered from the right path. To use the analogy for raising children, as parents we are the speherds and we are to correct our children when the wander from the right path. This can be done in many ways, not just spanking, and it definitely should be done diferently when handling chldren 10 and over. The Bible also says, "Fathers do not provoke your children to wrath." I think spanking an older child is doing just that.

 

Proverbs 23

13Do not hold back discipline from the child,

Although you strike him with the rod, he will not die.

14You shall strike him with the rod

And rescue his soul from Sheol.

 

If you insist on obedience when they are little (yes, spanking when needed), you shouldn't have to even think about such a thing by the time they are 12 or so.

[Jugglin'5]

If you insist on obedience when they are little (yes, spanking when needed), you shouldn't have to even think about such a thing by the time they are 12 or so

 

 

 

:iagree:

[percytruffle]

(((Pam and April))) :grouphug:

 

There are no words. But there are hugs.

[Jenny in Atl]

(((Pam and April))) :grouphug:

 

There are no words. But there are hugs.

I've stayed out of this because as someone w/o faith at this time I felt my view would not be welcome. But, I do have to say I have seen so many wonderful posts throughout this thread. I studied the effects of corporal punishment on children while in college. My own dh was "whipped" as a child. Pam is so right, the damage goes deep and is passed down without a strong love to intervene. There are so many other ways to disciple a child and teen that work, that there is really never any reason to strike a child.

:crying:

[Carol in Cal.]

If you insist on obedience when they are little (yes, spanking when needed), you shouldn't have to even think about such a thing by the time they are 12 or so.

 

But see, you can insist on obediance without spanking children. Isn't that the point of GOYB?

 

I did not decide when pregnant never to spank, but I decided to try not to. And I figured out what to do instead. And based on this process and on my observations with my friends, the spanking debate is fueled by a couple of red herrings.

 

One is the issue of legality. I'm not arguing that it should be illegal. That is a separate issue.

 

The other is the issue of not being able to picture what to do instead. This has two sides. The pro-spanking side that uses spanking all the time as a tool cannot picture how to avoid it, because it is always their fallback. The anti-spanking but ineffective side seems to demonstrate how crucial spanking is just because they don't discipline at all--they can't imagine what to do instead either, so they are permissive and their kids often act spoiled.

 

But, there are parents who insist on obedience and do follow through on their instructions and rules but without spanking. And that is the best kind of parent to be. Flat out.

 

And no, my DD is not perfect. But no, I don't spank her and have not practiced that. And yes, although imperfect, most people think she is a pretty good kid. And so do I.

[LisaNY]

You won't find a Bible argument one way or another.

 

However, common sense would tell you that in those days one's childhood was over by age 13 or so.

 

ETA: My respect for these individuals would be seriously diminished by this because they have proved that their method of child-rearing did not produce mature healthy God-fearing adults by age 18. I personally was a mature healthy God-fearing adult by age 15.

 

Yep! That's exactly what I was thinking!

 

Not to mention the fact that spanking an 18yo just seems SO inappropriate - unhealthy, even.

[LisaNY]

 

3) There are sexual connotations with spanking "children" of that age. I'm not saying the parents who spank are getting sexual thrills or that is what motivations them. I *am* saying that applying adult hands on near adult bottoms in a forceful manner IS a sexual/body violation.

 

 

 

BINGO!!!

[RebeccaC]

However the pastor's wife and the other most influential woman at my church are both still spanking teenagers. The pastor's wife recently spanked her 18 year old daughter (a good kid by any standard, though she does have a bit of an argumentative side)

 

I questioned when they would stop, and they just kept quoting the bible, that the bible makes no age requirement, and says over and over that the Rod will break foolishness out of a child, and the Rod corrects, and Fathers/mothers who hate their children refuse to use the rod.

 

So I said, but umm...teenagers aren't children. They're adults in most senses of the word.

 

My friends answered that society's 18 year old point does not define adult, that we as Christians should use Biblical definitions, and that there, again, is no age requirement on the use of the Rod.

 

They say the Bible is black and white and that it's my conditioning by society to be against spanking teenagers. I point out that not only are you basically spanking an adult (they still disagreed with the use of the term adult), but it's not very effective.

 

 

 

Well one problem with your friends logic is when the bible was written 18 year olds were considered adults. In fact girls as young as 12 and 13 were married off or had marriage contracts and young men were working. So at what age is a child too old to spank 21? If they are still living at home when they are 25 is it OK? These are questions I might ask.

 

What this comes down to is, not child training but the need to control thro physical force because neither parent nor child has self control. Which speaks about poor leadership in both your pastor and his wife.

 

I would think that the argumentative side of this 18 is strengthened by spanking. Any spanking after a child has reach the age of reason will breed bitterness. Especially when the spanking is done because the mother is overwhelmed and needs to gain control by physical force. This implies a lack of self control on the mothers part and self control is one of the fruits of the spirit, which......

Galatians 5:22

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,

5:23 gentleness, self-control;

makes a big implication about this woman's walk with God. I draw this conclusion from what Peter writes that the lack of self control means...

2 Peter 1:9 For he who lacks these qualities is blind or short-sighted, having forgotten his purification from his former sins.

It is my opinion that the husband and the wife in this area are blind and Jesus said that when the blind lead the blind they all fall in a ditch. Not saying that you and your dh are blind but what these parents are demonstrating is blindness due to a lack of self control because mom is overwhelmed and dad is gone too much. They have taken their knowledge of scripture and used it without self control to justify spanking a legal adult because mom is overwhelmed and dad is gone too much to be involved.

 

Here is the context for the 2 Peter passage which states as long as you practice self control among other things you will not stumble....

2 Peter 1:5-11

5 Now for this very reason also, applying all diligence, in your faith supply moral excellence, and in your moral excellence, knowledge, 6 and in your knowledge, self-control, and in your self-control, perseverance, and in your perseverance, godliness, 7 and in your godliness, brotherly kindness, and in your brotherly kindness, love. 8 For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they render you neither useless nor unfruitful in the true knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For he who lacks these qualities is blind or short-sighted, having forgotten his purification from his former sins. 10 Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble;

 

This does not even take in to consideration that this 18 year old is also this woman and man's sister in Christ, fellow heir, and this mother and father both lack brotherly (sisterly) kindness. Where is the kindness in spanking a fellow heir? I could build from here but I won't.... This is just some things to chew on as you think about this whole situation. I think you are right to be concerned but I don't think you will change their minds.

[H.S. Burrow]

Honey, your last paragraph concerns me. It's a dangerous thing to lean on yourself, on your own understanding and logic and to assume that that alone will keep you out of trouble. People are easily deceived. Eve walked with God herself and yet was deceived. Your dh may be a very strong leader, but strong leaders are only as strong as what they're taught by their own leaders. Never assume you're above being deceived. And, deception doesn't come with a blaring fanfare. It can creep in in small steps, often a slow, wearing away of convictions that leads to compromise that leads to assimilation to bad theology. Pray fervently over whether you need to stay in this church. Charter memberships don't mean squat to God. You can love people and not be in their erroneous midst. I hope this makes sense; that I've communicated clearly what I'm trying to say. I'm in no way criticizing your dh or you. You're both young and young in the Lord, so I hope what I've said will give you something to consider and pray over. Blessings to you and yours.

 

 

:iagree: SolaMichelle, you have said it WAY better than I could.

 

CT...I have been moved to tears from this post. I have been asking God what to say to you. I am concerned that you and your dh (so new in your faith) must approach your pastor to correct problems with his leadership.

 

Honey, this is SOOOOO wrong......it makes my heart break for your family. Please prayerfully consider another church. This pastor does not sound like a Biblical man....it sounds like one who has twisted scripture to fit HIS beliefs.

[Doran]

Over the course of the past year or more, I have had the sad "honor" of helping a Christian friend whose life is currently a shambles due to the fact that she finds herself married to a man who chooses to interpret the Bible in ways that support his personal, dysfunctional ideas of how to be a husband and father. From the outside looking in I can tell you that he has been emotionally abusive to his wife in his dominance of her and their three children. He takes his "direction", in part, from his pastor. The pastor is learned and able to speak with authority. But, he is also manipulative and judgemental. He has an idea of holiness that smacks of a power-hungry authoritarian ruler. But, because he couches his words and his teachings in Biblical references, his congregation believes that he speaks the truth.

 

I have to be totally honest here and tell you that reading your OP, and reading your subsequent posts in this thread has put my stomach in knots. Your situation sounds so much like that of my friend, except that I'm not trying to imply that your life is a shambles. I am heart sickened because, to me, this situation sounds like child abuse. If you were to read about this family from an unbiased perspective -- remember that family you had such concern over way back? -- would you not fear for the children living under that roof? I'm not an alarmist most of time, but the tale you tell alarms me.

 

I'm sorry. I know you asked for Biblical support for why your pastor's actions are questionable (or wrong?), and I have not provided that. All I'm going on is a gut wrenching feeling that this situation is terribly twisted. I hope your heart will reveal to you why it is wrong and that you will find a way to remove yourselves from it.

 

With good intention,