Transgender question related to the ABC Primetime show "(Extra)Ordinary Family"

[BethG]

Did anyone else see that special on ABC Primetime a few nights ago about the transgender in children?

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/extraordinary-family-inside-transgender-world/story?id=14414656

If you didn't, it was about children who, at a very early age (preschool) show signs of preferring to be/act like the opposite gender than their birth gender. The two kids covered on the show were both boys and they were the 2nd born in their respective families (and, incidently, the youngest/last born as well). The first child covered (who's mom authored a childrens book called, "My Princess Boy") had an older brother who appeared to be about 4 years his elder. The second child covered had an older sister who looked to be about 2 years his elder. Anyway, the show didn't discuss birth order and the issue at hand, but it got me to thinking that, of the 4 people (males) I know well enough to know about their home life/birth order/etc. who claim to be gay (not necessarily trans-gender) that all 4 of them are 2nd born children. Also, 3 of the 4 I know have older brothers. I just thought it was an interesting thought and I wondered if anyone else had similar observations among people they know who claim to be gay/transgender/homosexual (i know these terms are not synonymous).

 

I'm curious if there is any data out there regarding what role, if any, do birth order and genders of siblings has on gender differentiation/assumption/preference in individuals who claim to be gay or transgender.

 

Can you share information regarding those you know of (know well enough to know family/birth order) who claim to be gay/transgender regarding their birth gender and birth order and the gender and birth order of their siblings?

(NOTE: PLEASE DO NOT share any personal names/location/or any info that could POSSIBLY reveal identities --- just general info please).

 

Any thoughts?:bigear:

[ThatCyndiGirl]

My oldest is gay (not "claims to be", but IS). Her friend in youth group is transgender and is also the oldest in THAT family as well. The youth leaders daughter is also gay and the oldest in that family.

 

So, no. And they do not "claim to be". They are. I don't 'claim to be' heterosexual.

[Jenny in Florida]

My oldest is gay (not "claims to be", but IS). Her friend in youth group is transgender and is also the oldest in THAT family as well. The youth leaders daughter is also gay and the oldest in that family.

 

So, no. And they do not "claim to be". They are. I don't 'claim to be' heterosexual.

 

Thank you for saying it first.

 

We know many gay and lesbian folks. I don't see any pattern in birth order.

[BridgeTea]

Yes, I saw the special.

 

My gay child is my 2nd born. Her girlfriend is not. I would be surprised if there is a noticeable pattern in regards to birth order and who is gay.

 

My only other thought is that of all the gays I've ever known, "claiming" to be gay is not what or who they are. They are just gay, period.

[Pretty in Pink]

I remember some research referenced in a psychology text within the last few years that did indicate a *possible* association between birth order and homosexuality. The upshot, I believe, was that later-born males were more likely to be gay than first-born males. I am sorry that I cannot reference the studies specifically for you. I just remember seeing it mentioned in one of my textbooks.

[Tangerine]

I have a friend with a young child born male, living as a girl. She is the oldest.

[Crissy]

I remember some research referenced in a psychology text within the last few years that did indicate a *possible* association between birth order and homosexuality. The upshot, I believe, was that later-born males were more likely to be gay than first-born males. I am sorry that I cannot reference the studies specifically for you. I just remember seeing it mentioned in one of my textbooks.

 

My husband was telling me about some reading he did regarding higher rates of homosexuality among twins. It interested him because one of his brothers (a twin) is gay, as is one of his long-time friends (also a twin).

[lionfamily1999]

It seems like there is a movement away from the idea of all of this being set in stone at all (gender/sexuality). I read an article (and will try to find it so I can post a link) that referenced some California law allowing students to use bathrooms and locker rooms that corresponde with their chosen gender at the time. From what I've read, these things are in a state of flux and right means right now.

 

Ugh, I'll try to find (at least) the man that was quoted. I think he was a psychologist, but I can't remember. It was interesting. The idea that the gender "assigned" at birth meant nothing, that sexuality and gender was an ongoing choice.

 

If that is the case, then perhaps the birth order connections are more a result of the more maleable attitudes of younger children. That, imo, comes about because parents tend to relax as they have more children. Isn't the joke that the first baby is kept pristine, the second one gets a bib, and the third one is lucky for a dirty sock?

[ThatCyndiGirl]

Did a real psychologist actually say that he or she believes that gender and sexuality are "ongoing choices"? I would question their bias if that is the case. Most people would not 'choose' to be a part of such a hated group.

 

ETA: Of all sub-groups within this group imo transgendered people have the worst go of it. Can YOU imagine always feeling like you were in the wrong body? That people referred to you as the wrong gender? I have ALWAYS identified myself as female, always embraced that. Luckily, I was born into a body that matches. My neighbor went off on a tirade one day about "those people having surgery to become a different gender" and how "god doesn't make mistakes". I asked her, "So, children born with birth defects should stay that way, too?" Sometimes it just doesn't match. I can't IMAGINE what they go through.

Edited September 2, 2011 by ThatCyndiGirl

[Tangerine]

Did a real psychologist actually say that he or she believes that gender and sexuality are "ongoing choices"? I would question their bias if that is the case. Most people would not 'choose' to be a part of such a hated group.

 

ETA: Of all sub-groups within this group imo transgendered people have the worst go of it. Can YOU imagine always feeling like you were in the wrong body? That people referred to you as the wrong gender? I have ALWAYS identified myself as female, always embraced that. Luckily, I was born into a body that matches. My neighbor went off on a tirade one day about "those people having surgery to become a different gender" and how "god doesn't make mistakes". I asked her, "So, children born with birth defects should stay that way, too?" Sometimes it just doesn't match. I can't IMAGINE what they go through.

 

:iagree: And what about those born ambiguously gendered who are arbitrarily assigned one at birth. :confused:

[BethG]

My oldest is gay (not "claims to be", but IS). Her friend in youth group is transgender and is also the oldest in THAT family as well. The youth leaders daughter is also gay and the oldest in that family.

 

So, no. And they do not "claim to be". They are. I don't 'claim to be' heterosexual.

 

I used the word claim to denote that individual's self-described/pronouncement of his/her own sexuality. Finding out what that person HIMSELF/HERSELF CLAIMS about this is more of an accurate description/portrayal than third party observations/opinions of others on the subject, thus the use of the term neutral word "CLAIM." This is a subject about which many (including parents/teachers) can lend an opinion quite easily, so to me finding out a person's own CLAIM is an important distinction. So, when I ask people to think of people who personally claim to be gay/etc., I am, in effect, making this point of, "Don't give me examples of people that you think seem gay or others say that are gay....rather, please give me examples of those give their own personal testimony/CLAIM/ownership of being gay/transgender/etc. so that the example is credible/relevant/legitimate."

[twoforjoy]

If that is the case, then perhaps the birth order connections are more a result of the more maleable attitudes of younger children. That, imo, comes about because parents tend to relax as they have more children. Isn't the joke that the first baby is kept pristine, the second one gets a bib, and the third one is lucky for a dirty sock?

 

The theories I've seen around birth order have to do with hormones during pregnancy. I think the idea is that subsequent births (particularly subsequent male births) might affect the hormones the mother produces during the pregnancy, and there's more and more research looking into how prenatal hormone exposure impacts later development.

[Ria]

I used the word claim to denote that individual's self-described/pronouncement of his/her own sexuality. Finding out what that person HIMSELF/HERSELF CLAIMS about this is more of an accurate description/portrayal than third party observations/opinions of others on the subject, thus the use of the term neutral word "CLAIM." This is a subject about which many (including parents/teachers) can lend an opinion quite easily, so to me finding out a person's own CLAIM is an important distinction. So, when I ask people to think of people who personally claim to be gay/etc., I am, in effect, making this point of, "Don't give me examples of people that you think seem gay or others say that are gay....rather, please give me examples of those give their own personal testimony/CLAIM/ownership of being gay/transgender/etc. so that the example is credible/relevant/legitimate."

 

With all due respect, that is the most convoluted explanation I have ever read. I don't think anyone was going to give examples of people suspected of being gay....

[lionfamily1999]

Did a real psychologist actually say that he or she believes that gender and sexuality are "ongoing choices"? I would question their bias if that is the case. Most people would not 'choose' to be a part of such a hated group.

 

ETA: Of all sub-groups within this group imo transgendered people have the worst go of it. Can YOU imagine always feeling like you were in the wrong body? That people referred to you as the wrong gender? I have ALWAYS identified myself as female, always embraced that. Luckily, I was born into a body that matches. My neighbor went off on a tirade one day about "those people having surgery to become a different gender" and how "god doesn't make mistakes". I asked her, "So, children born with birth defects should stay that way, too?" Sometimes it just doesn't match. I can't IMAGINE what they go through.

This essentialist view of gender was challenged in 1990, when feminist philosopher Judith Butler published her groundbreaking book Gender Trouble. She argued that gender is a learned social behavior that we each perform.

Swarthmore students today cite Butler regularly when they talk about gender as “a fluid state of identity.†It seems almost obvious to this generation that femininity and masculinity are nothing more than social constructs that we act out—and that there are many more than two gender choices.

Now, the quote that I found (the above is new to me, and I only skimmed it) is to follow. I saved the quote and can't find the magazine. I know only that I tagged it: Bret Johnson/phychotherapist - Laura Markowitz (which is what led me to the article linked above). Quoting as I have it written... so short handish:

Addressing the prob faced by individs who had come out of the closet... later hetero... So what AM I, they asked.

The psychotherapist's response was, essentially to not worry; its okay to change your seual identity whever you wish. In his words, today people "don't want to fit into any boxes... they want to be free to change their minds."

 

...

 

"a challenge to the old, modernist way of thinking" that you were born with a gender that does not change because it is rooted in our biological identity... I might have been straight yesterday, but I can homosexual today, and maybe bisexual tomorrow. One's psychosexual identity is said to be in constant flux.

:lol: This is written in my journal, a quote with a quote in it. Sorry it's hard to follow.

 

Anyway, I thought it was quite interesting that there was a movement towards the idea that sexuality was, indeed, a choice. It's kind of funny that science is deciding that we are what we choose to be.

[ThatCyndiGirl]

In the future a simple "I am only asking about people who call themselves gay/transgender/etc., NOT people whom you suspect are gay, etc." would explain your intent.

 

When some people (myself included) read "claim to be gay" it can be code for "isn't REALLY gay, they just THINK that they are because they havn't figured out the truth yet". (think 'pray the gay away')

 

As to your original hypothesis, the last research that I read was that the more older brothers a boy has the more likely he is to be gay. I remember my husband saying, "So, statistically speaking, at least one of the Duggar kids is gay and just doesn't know it yet". :001_huh:

[lionfamily1999]

:iagree: And what about those born ambiguously gendered who are arbitrarily assigned one at birth. :confused:

The idea is that gender (any gender, regardless of chromosomes and body parts) is assigned arbitrarily, period.

With all due respect, that is the most convoluted explanation I have ever read. I don't think anyone was going to give examples of people suspected of being gay....

I know plenty of people that would. I see what she is saying. The question is not, does his mother believe him to be gay, or does he claim he is gay. By claiming it, he is declaring himself to be gay which holds more water than any other person's opinion of what he is.

[Ria]

 

When some people (myself included) read "claim to be gay" it can be code for "isn't REALLY gay, they just THINK that they are because they havn't figured out the truth yet". (think 'pray the gay away')

:

 

This is exactly what I was thinking.

[ezrabean2005]

I don't think, in this day and age, that anyone would enter into this type of conversation with the light idea of describing someone who "seems gay" (that seems extremely juvenile). You are or you aren't. My grandfather was the oldest. My brother is the oldest as well.

 

It's a theory, but I don't really understand why this kind of time would be spent on researching it. It seems to me that it would be more beneficially spent on an issue that matters. I also agree with a previous poster that I am very fortunate to prefer acting like a female and I have a body that happens to match how I act.

 

I have a feeling this thread is going to disappear quickly. I don't know how much of this theory there is to discuss. It's not a disease or a birth defect that should discovered so it can be "cured".

[Ria]

 

I know plenty of people that would. I see what she is saying. The question is not, does his mother believe him to be gay, or does he claim he is gay. By claiming it, he is declaring himself to be gay which holds more water than any other person's opinion of what he is.

 

I see what she's saying, too, but the original wording is still *almost* offensive in that it requires an explanation of intent (see above posts). Seems to me it would be simpler all around to just ask, "What's the birth order of gay people you know."

[Veritaserum]

In the future a simple "I am only asking about people who call themselves gay/transgender/etc., NOT people whom you suspect are gay, etc." would explain your intent.

 

When some people (myself included) read "claim to be gay" it can be code for "isn't REALLY gay, they just THINK that they are because they havn't figured out the truth yet". (think 'pray the gay away')

 

:iagree: "Claims to be" is not neutral. "Self-identifies as" might be.

 

The only transgendered person I know of is my friend's FIL (now a second MIL). S/He had an operation and now lives as a female. I don't know her birth order.

[ezrabean2005]

There is a HUGE difference between someone who is gay and someone who is transgender. I understand it's easy to lump them together (and society does, even I do at times). But it is a big difference.

[BethG]

With all due respect, that is the most convoluted explanation I have ever read. I don't think anyone was going to give examples of people suspected of being gay....

 

How silly of me to assume that this ever occurs!!! You're right....NO ONE would ever ascribe her own opinion as to another's sexuality based on observations/third-party-opinions/gossip/etc. Thanks for reminding me!

[lionfamily1999]

There is a HUGE difference between someone who is gay and someone who is transgender. I understand it's easy to lump them together (and society does, even I do at times). But it is a big difference.

I guess it depends on what gender the transgender person finds attractive in comparison to the gender that they identify with...

[ezrabean2005]

I guess it depends on what gender the transgender person finds attractive in comparison to the gender that they identify with...

 

Essentially, yes.

[amey311]

The transgendered person I know for whom I know some of the birth order is someone living as a man now (born female) and he has an older sister. I don't think he has younger siblings, but I'm not sure if there are other older siblings.

 

Also - I'm quite willing to be corrected on how I phrased that. I think H is a great person (and I knew him as both genders) and I'd hate to think I phrased things poorly.

[C_l_e_0..Q_c]

:iagree: And what about those born ambiguously gendered who are arbitrarily assigned one at birth. :confused:

 

 

When looking for our ancestor tree, we have a great-great-uncle with a definite female name - Emily. His birth certificate states he was female. Yet later on, he fathered quite a few chidlren. That was in the late 1800. No sex changes then!

 

Talk about arbitrary gender!

[sarawatsonim]

Did a real psychologist actually say that he or she believes that gender and sexuality are "ongoing choices"? I would question their bias if that is the case. Most people would not 'choose' to be a part of such a hated group.

 

ETA: Of all sub-groups within this group imo transgendered people have the worst go of it. Can YOU imagine always feeling like you were in the wrong body? That people referred to you as the wrong gender? I have ALWAYS identified myself as female, always embraced that. Luckily, I was born into a body that matches. My neighbor went off on a tirade one day about "those people having surgery to become a different gender" and how "god doesn't make mistakes". I asked her, "So, children born with birth defects should stay that way, too?" Sometimes it just doesn't match. I can't IMAGINE what they go through.

 

You know your on Facebook too much when you look for the Like button. :tongue_smilie:

I'll just have to stick with the :iagree:. I know a transgendered child and I agree with you 100%.

[astrid]

I used the word claim to denote that individual's self-described/pronouncement of his/her own sexuality. Finding out what that person HIMSELF/HERSELF CLAIMS about this is more of an accurate description/portrayal than third party observations/opinions of others on the subject, thus the use of the term neutral word "CLAIM." This is a subject about which many (including parents/teachers) can lend an opinion quite easily, so to me finding out a person's own CLAIM is an important distinction. So, when I ask people to think of people who personally claim to be gay/etc., I am, in effect, making this point of, "Don't give me examples of people that you think seem gay or others say that are gay....rather, please give me examples of those give their own personal testimony/CLAIM/ownership of being gay/transgender/etc. so that the example is credible/relevant/legitimate."

 

:001_huh: WHAT?! :001_huh:

 

I cannot believe I just read that. (Several times, in fact. It was convoluted and very difficult to follow.)

 

astrid

[lionfamily1999]

This essentialist view of gender was challenged in 1990, when feminist philosopher Judith Butler published her groundbreaking book Gender Trouble. She argued that gender is a learned social behavior that we each perform.

Swarthmore students today cite Butler regularly when they talk about gender as “a fluid state of identity.†It seems almost obvious to this generation that femininity and masculinity are nothing more than social constructs that we act out—and that there are many more than two gender choices.

Follow the link ;)

[Ria]

:001_huh: WHAT?! :001_huh:

 

I cannot believe I just read that. (Several times, in fact. It was convoluted and very difficult to follow.)

 

astrid

 

I knew I couldn't have been the only one! :lol:

[astrid]

Whew. I posted before reading any replies, but was so :confused::confused: by the OP's original post that I jumped in without reading further.

 

And I"m still :001_huh::001_huh::001_huh:...... despite "claiming to be" an English teacher. ;)

 

astrid

[Elizabeth in MN]

I am an only child and I'm on the Lesbian side of Bisexual.

 

I probably know dozens if not over 100 transgender folks, of all genders. I've known most for decades. There is only one I can think of that is a second born child. Of the thousands of GLB people I have talked to I can't think of noticing a pattern is birth order. Now, kids adopted through Catholic Agencies, hell yes but not birth order.

[astrid]

I am an only child and I'm on the Lesbian side of Bisexual.

 

I probably know dozens if not over 100 transgender folks, of all genders. I've known most for decades. There is only one I can think of that is a second born child. Of the thousands of GLB people I have talked to I can't think of noticing a pattern is birth order. Now, kids adopted through Catholic Agencies, hell yes but not birth order.

 

Interesting that you say this, Elizabeth. I"m hetero, but have several friends who are gay. I can think of three just off the top of my head who were adopted through Catholic Family Charities, two in Boston and one in Hartford. I never gave it any thought until now.

 

astrid

[Amy in NH]

I know three openly gay people. All are the youngest in their families:

 

1. One is a man, the youngest of three boys.

2. One is a man with two older sisters.

3. One is a woman with two older brothers and one older sister.

 

The two men in question I have known since they were small children, when people predicted based on their comments, behaviors, and mannerisms that they would be gay when they grew up. You could just "tell". It was actually a relief when they came out.

 

I know another man who is the youngest, with two older sisters, who we all (family) think is gay. He is in his 50s now. We can't tell if he won't admit it to himself, or if he knows he is but just won't come out to everyone else. Or maybe he isn't, but I really doubt it.

 

I have read recently that fraternal birth order is the largest predictor of homosexuality. Apparently younger brothers are more likely to be gay; the more older brothers the more likely.

[Janie Grace]

Now, kids adopted through Catholic Agencies, hell yes but not birth order.

 

What do you think the connection is here? Were they adopted at birth? Why should the religious affiliation of the agency affect anything? (I'm not Catholic or at all offended that there might be a connection, just curious.)

 

To answer the OP, I have a cousin who is gay; she has an older sister.

Friend (male) -- has four older sisters.

Friend (male) -- has an older sister.

Edited September 2, 2011 by Janie Grace

[lionfamily1999]

And there it is. We know he's gay, he just won't admit it. At least, he claims not to be.

[Carpe]

The trangendered persons I know were all first-born.

 

All the effeminent gay men have older brothers, however macho gay men and all gay women seem to be completely random.

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

This essentialist view of gender was challenged in 1990, when feminist philosopher Judith Butler published her groundbreaking book Gender Trouble. She argued that gender is a learned social behavior that we each perform.

Swarthmore students today cite Butler regularly when they talk about gender as “a fluid state of identity.†It seems almost obvious to this generation that femininity and masculinity are nothing more than social constructs that we act out—and that there are many more than two gender choices.

Follow the link ;)

 

I do not believe this true. There was a case a baby born male who had a tragic circumcision accident. Consequently the doctors advised to assign this child a female status and the family raised him as female. This child grew up and was very unhappy in his assigned gender and eventually reverted back to his male status. I also recall that this child was unaware that he was born male and they even used hormones from what I recollect to help in his assigned female gender. Therefore to me it is not so fluid at all. I think our brains due to possibly hormonal influences in utero end up feeling male or female in most cases.

[Terabith]

Transgender and homosexuality are two totally different issues. Some transgendered persons are gay. Some are straight.

 

My daughter's godmother is transgendered. She was the youngest. My roomate in college is a transgendered man. He was also the youngest. Another transgendered man I went to college with was the firstborn. I don't believe there are any studies about birth order and gender variance.

 

There is something called the Fraternal Birth Order Effect that deals with homosexuality and men. For each son a woman gives birth to, the chances that the next son will be gay increases by 28-48%. However, the rate is pretty low, so it would take ten brothers before the chance of a boy being homosexual hits 50%. http://www.pnas.org/content/103/28/10771.long

 

I don't know about any studies related to homosexuality and females.

 

Transgendered persons almost invariably go through absolute hell. Even in the most supportive environment, it is so, so hard. Being gay isn't exactly a picnic either, but gender issues are so fundamental. A helpful way to think of it is as a birth defect. And yes, the use of bathrooms is a HUGE issue. My roommate had a terrible time of it. When she would go into a woman's restroom, women would get upset and give her horrible looks and sometimes go get management. And honestly, getting "caught" in a men's restroom has a high probability of physical violence. So, I'm all for unisex bathrooms, and allowing people to use that restroom that corresponds to their identified gender instead of their genitalia. And I'm in favor of allowing adolescents to get, at the least, hormones that prevent puberty. Hormonal therapy is much more successful if it is begun early.

Edited September 2, 2011 by Terabith
clarification

[lionfamily1999]

I do not believe this true. There was a case a baby born male who had a tragic circumcision accident. Consequently the doctors advised to assign this child a female status and the family raised him as female. This child grew up and was very unhappy in his assigned gender and eventually reverted back to his male status. I also recall that this child was unaware that he was born male and they even used hormones from what I recollect to help in his assigned female gender. Therefore to me it is not so fluid at all. I think our brains due to possibly hormonal influences in utero end up feeling male or female in most cases.

I was quoting an article. Post modern thought on psychosexuality and gender. The idea is that gender is not connected with physical attributes, but rather something that is fluid and can be changed at will. Thus, we're all capable of being transgender if we choose to be so, eschewing the idea of gender being the result of what is assigned and accepted by society due to our physical form.

 

I think we're all made in God's image ;) I just found the article very interesting for what is the newer approach to viewing gender and sexuality as something that the individual can change as the individual sees fit. "I might have been straight yesterday, but I can be homosexual today, and maybe bisexual tomorrow. One's psychosexual identity is said to be in constant flux." That is the result of gender also being in flux.

 

Why would we not teach our children that they are boys or girls/males or females, unless it's because we do nto believe that the social construct of gender is wrong and gender can be chosen by the individual? Perhaps some do choose to identify with the gender they are born with, but (according to the post-modern thought) they should not be bound to do so.

 

So, if naming your child a gender specific name is going to screw them up for life by forcing them to accept a gender that was assigned to them by their physical anatomy, then their gender is up in the air until they pick what they want to be and if they decide differently later they should be able to do so.

[Tangerine]

I can certainly understand fluid sexuality. And sometimes those who are currently with a same-sex partner "identify" as gay for purposes of simplicity, when in another situation they could be with an opposite sex person. I'm having difficulty grasping fluidity in gender identity.

[WishboneDawn]

I do not believe this true. There was a case a baby born male who had a tragic circumcision accident. Consequently the doctors advised to assign this child a female status and the family raised him as female. This child grew up and was very unhappy in his assigned gender and eventually reverted back to his male status. I also recall that this child was unaware that he was born male and they even used hormones from what I recollect to help in his assigned female gender. Therefore to me it is not so fluid at all. I think our brains due to possibly hormonal influences in utero end up feeling male or female in most cases.

 

I think there's probably variance on this. That for some, maybe most of us, it's ingrained (like the case you mentioned). For others it may well be a more fluid thing.

[Terabith]

I was quoting an article. Post modern thought on psychosexuality and gender. The idea is that gender is not connected with physical attributes, but rather something that is fluid and can be changed at will. Thus, we're all capable of being transgender if we choose to be so, eschewing the idea of gender being the result of what is assigned and accepted by society due to our physical form.

 

I think we're all made in God's image ;) I just found the article very interesting for what is the newer approach to viewing gender and sexuality as something that the individual can change as the individual sees fit. "I might have been straight yesterday, but I can be homosexual today, and maybe bisexual tomorrow. One's psychosexual identity is said to be in constant flux." That is the result of gender also being in flux.

 

Why would we not teach our children that they are boys or girls/males or females, unless it's because we do nto believe that the social construct of gender is wrong and gender can be chosen by the individual? Perhaps some do choose to identify with the gender they are born with, but (according to the post-modern thought) they should not be bound to do so.

 

So, if naming your child a gender specific name is going to screw them up for life by forcing them to accept a gender that was assigned to them by their physical anatomy, then their gender is up in the air until they pick what they want to be and if they decide differently later they should be able to do so.

 

The fact is, transgender is a rare condition. So, giving your child a gender specific name is fine, and teaching them that he or she is a boy or a girl is fine. It's not going to screw the child up, and the fact of the matter is, the odds are overwhelmingly in the favor of the biological gender being the correct one. The issue is when the child consistently claims that he or she is the different gender. If that was the case, I would listen to them. I wouldn't freak out if my two or three year old claimed to be the opposite gender, but if it continued and seemed to involve other "identification" (clothing, friendships, activities), I would keep an eye open and be very supportive.

 

The experience I have had of going through transition with two very close friends is that it's not something that is changed at will. If there was ANY way they could have changed their gender at will, they would have changed it to their biological gender. The extreme pain, of praying every single night for years and years that God take this away; the social stigma, the fear of being caught, the shame, the families who disowned them, the money, the physical pain of transition....... this isn't something that is trivial or a choice. Both of them came very close to suicide as a result of this.

[butterflymommy]

I read a study once that the only familial/ birth order commonality between gay men was the number of older brothers-- the more older brothers a man had, the more likely he was to be gay.

 

My personal experience, most of the gay people I've known, male or female, were molested as children. I can only think of one who wasn't, and he has a brother who is also gay. I'm pretty sure there have been studies showing this is not a proven causal issue, but in my little circle of life, it's definitely a common factor.

 

The only person I know personally, and am close to, who has transgender inclinations (he ultimately decided not to go through with any of them) was an only child who was molested/ abused/ severely neglected as a child.

 

The only other transgender person I know-- indirectly-- was the second born and claimed to have been molested by his parents.

[dragons in the flower bed]

Statistically, men are more likely to be gay if they have older brothers. It doesn't matter if they ever met those older brothers. It's completely a weird youngest-child-of-many-brothers stat. I imagine it can be looked up using Google.

 

That's all I know about it for sure. I can talk about how few studies have been done on the transgendered population since the 1970s. That was such a different period, cultural, for the lesbian and gay community, that we can no longer consider those forty-year-old studies relevant. It was much safer then to just be gay, funny as that sounds.

[lionfamily1999]

The fact is, transgender is a rare condition. So, giving your child a gender specific name is fine, and teaching them that he or she is a boy or a girl is fine. It's not going to screw the child up, and the fact of the matter is, the odds are overwhelmingly in the favor of the biological gender being the correct one. The issue is when the child consistently claims that he or she is the different gender. If that was the case, I would listen to them. I wouldn't freak out if my two or three year old claimed to be the opposite gender, but if it continued and seemed to involve other "identification" (clothing, friendships, activities), I would keep an eye open and be very supportive.

 

The experience I have had of going through transition with two very close friends is that it's not something that is changed at will. If there was ANY way they could have changed their gender at will, they would have changed it to their biological gender. The extreme pain, of praying every single night for years and years that God take this away; the social stigma, the fear of being caught, the shame, the families who disowned them, the money, the physical pain of transition....... this isn't something that is trivial or a choice. Both of them came very close to suicide as a result of this.

Yet, there are now schools that refuse to identify gender and families that refuse to identify gender, because they do not want the socially constructed idea of gender as being attached to phsyical anatomy to dictate what gender their child identifies with. There are educated people arguing that gender is fluid and that any fixed gender ideals are percieved or forced upon a person by social constructs.

 

IOW, we're all transgender, we just don't realize it.

 

Look, I only agree with this stuff in a funny sideways sort of way. I believe that it's a matter of choice. I don't think that we should change our gender or psychosexuality day by day, but I do agree that it's possible to do.

 

A bit back I posted the link for the article I found. There's more out there. This isn't one wackado croaking out from the boonies. These are "scholars."

[DianeW88]

There is something called the Fraternal Birth Order Effect that deals with homosexuality and men. For each son a woman gives birth to, the chances that the next son will be gay increases by 28-48%. However, the rate is pretty low, so it would take ten brothers before the chance of a boy being homosexual hits 50%.

 

That's interesting. One family that I'm acquainted with has three sons. The two oldest are gay, the youngest is not. I won't tell the researcher if you don't. :D

[Ipsey]

I read a study once that the only familial/ birth order commonality between gay men was the number of older brothers-- the more older brothers a man had, the more likely he was to be gay.

 

My personal experience, most of the gay people I've known, male or female, were molested as children. I can only think of one who wasn't, and he has a brother who is also gay. I'm pretty sure there have been studies showing this is not a proven causal issue, but in my little circle of life, it's definitely a common factor.

 

The only person I know personally, and am close to, who has transgender inclinations (he ultimately decided not to go through with any of them) was an only child who was molested/ abused/ severely neglected as a child.

 

The only other transgender person I know-- indirectly-- was the second born and claimed to have been molested by his parents.

 

 

It's been a trope for a long time that homosexuality is brought on by molestation. I will be glad when this runs its course.

 

Correlation does not equal causation.

 

None of the gay people I know has been molested. All of the people I know who have been molested by different-sex predators are heterosexual.

 

And that is also anecdotal evidence.

 

Molestation doesn't make you gay.

[twoforjoy]

This essentialist view of gender was challenged in 1990, when feminist philosopher Judith Butler published her groundbreaking book Gender Trouble. She argued that gender is a learned social behavior that we each perform.

Swarthmore students today cite Butler regularly when they talk about gender as “a fluid state of identity.†It seems almost obvious to this generation that femininity and masculinity are nothing more than social constructs that we act out—and that there are many more than two gender choices.

Follow the link ;)

 

Butler's main point is that gender is performative: that it's not something we essentially are, but something we do. One example she used in her work was the song "You make me feel like a natural woman." On the face of it, that seems like a total contradiction--how could somebody make you feel like a natural woman? But Butler argues that that's exactly what gender is. It's about performing a certain gender identity so that you get validation that then makes you feel like you are that identity.

 

And, there's much truth to that. What it means to be a woman today looks different than what it meant to be a woman 400 years ago. What it means to be a woman in the United States looks different than what it means to be a woman in rural China or in Saudi Arabia. If you were to travel to Saudi Arabia and "perform" your gender identity the way you perform it in the United States, you'd probably be in a whole lot of trouble!

 

I do find it funny that anybody would imagine that Butler has had any significant impact on this generation, though. Nobody outside of lit and feminist theory reads her, and I'm not sure she's read that much any more (she was more late 90s/early 00s). Feminist theorists are not, contrary to what some believe, the secret architects of our culture. Not even close.

[stripe]

Molestation doesn't make you gay.

 

But I do know people for whom molestation was very traumatic and it affected their sex life. And I too know a large number of molestation survivors who joined a religious order and vowed chastity or who became repulsed by heterosexual sex. If sexuality can be said to be fluid, couldn't trauma push you in one direction or the other?