Cub Scouts vs. the nonreligious family

[Tangerine]

I consider abortion murder. Some do not. I'm not candy coating anything.

 

But you're coming to a public forum, and calling your fellow board members who have made agonizing decisions regarding non-viable fetuses, murderers. Whatever your stance, that just seems unkind and deliberately cruel.

[twoforjoy]

I imagine the reasons for declining enrollment in both the U.S. and Canada would primarily be that kids have far more activities to choose from (many of which are more intensive and time-consuming) today than they did a generation ago, and that kids today are just generally less interested in camping and outdoor-type skills. I don't imagine that political issues have much to do with membership numbers.

[WishboneDawn]

I imagine the reasons for declining enrollment in both the U.S. and Canada would primarily be that kids have far more activities to choose from (many of which are more intensive and time-consuming) today than they did a generation ago, and that kids today are just generally less interested in camping and outdoor-type skills. I don't imagine that political issues have much to do with membership numbers.

 

I tend to think that. Parents want bang for their buck as well. If you have a kid enrolled in soccer, dance and GG it's likely going to be GG that's dropped because the advantages in GG are harder to see then with the other two. An honestly, as numbers go down, the groups peddle harder to keep up with the kids - uniforms become t-shirts, camping trips become sleepovers, skill-building activities because touchy-feely discussions. I see this with GG anyway.

 

GG tries to become everything for every girl and in doing so lose the essential elements that made GG special in the past. It gets harder and harder for parents and kids to see what sets GG apart from church groups or Scouts or any number of other groups. I imagine it's similar for other groups. :(

[catz]

But you're coming to a public forum, and calling your fellow board members who have made agonizing decisions regarding non-viable fetuses, murderers. Whatever your stance, that just seems unkind and deliberately cruel.

 

:iagree: And completely irrelevant to the topic at hand. :confused: Still not sure how that popped into the mix. I don't remember revealing my stand on this issue at any point or seeing anyone else do that.

[Tangerine]

It gets harder and harder for parents and kids to see what sets GG apart from church groups or Scouts or any number of other groups. I imagine it's similar for other groups. :(

 

Can you tell me what Girl Guides is? I looked up the governing organization, which says Girl Guides and Girl Scouts. Is it the same governing organization as Girl Scouts of America, or is it completely different?

[Julie Smith]

I have no problem with Scouts Canada as long as they receive no special treatment from the government.

 

I do have a problem with BSA since it states:

The Boy Scouts of America maintains that no member can grow into the best kind of citizen without recognising an obligation to God.

 

I have problems with a organization that is allowed to teach that a person can not grow into "the best kind of citizen" without recognizing a obligation to god. I think that a organzation that believes in such a thing should not be allowed to operate and teach millions of children.

 

Yes I would feel the same with if a organization was trying to teach the opposite.

 

Ew. I missed that somehow.

 

 

 

I am surprised that there hasn't been more comments on that stance from BSA. Because of that line, I think the BSA goes beyond just excluding atheists.

[WishboneDawn]

Can you tell me what Girl Guides is? I looked up the governing organization, which says Girl Guides and Girl Scouts. Is it the same governing organization as Girl Scouts of America, or is it completely different?

 

It's the Canadian version. There's the world umbrella organization WAGGGS of which both GG and GS are members and then each country that's a member has it's own version. So it's like a bunch of sisters with the same mom but different dads. :D

[Tangerine]

So it's like a bunch of sisters with the same mom but different dads. :D

 

Wow, Girl Scouts must be WAY more liberal than Boy Scouts. :001_huh:

 

Thanks for the clarification!

[Impish]

Well in the basic definition of the word "discrimination" there is discrimination going on. It is legal discrimination and as I said earlier, the BSA are entitled to it as a private organization. I'm entitled to be disappointed that I am not wanted because I am an atheist.

 

But the reason I'm responding is I can't believe your argument that you would be fine joining a secular group that didn't say grace before meals. This is not the same thing. You are discussing a behavior (saying grace) versus a deeply-rooted belief system (secularism). You are equating not performing a behavior with completely excluding someone from membership.

 

And I wonder, are you one of the people who will refuse to shop at stores around Christmas because they no longer say "Merry Christmas?" Because there are a lot of people who get very angry about that. And again, they're entitled to that but it's essentially the same as your grace before a meal analogy.

The grace analogy would be that I wouldn't be allowed to express my religious beliefs, and therefore it would technically be an infringement upon my rights. Its not 'just' a behaviour, but an expression of a 'deeply rooted belief'. It would be obviously inappropriate to bring tracts, start praying, etc, etc in a secular group, and yet expressing my faith is covered both by freedom of religion and free speach, so I *could*, technically, make a stink and demand my rights and freedoms...Or, go with the flow, or find another group.

 

I just don't see the logic in going into a group that has a clearly stated pov and either demanding they change for me, or giving them a negative label b/c my personal pov is at odds with theirs. It obviously works for all of those who are members, so why would I think that my personal pov is more important, more valid than all the others, and that the group should have to change to accomodate me?

 

And no, I don't care one way or another what someone in a store may or may not say.

[WishboneDawn]

Wow, Girl Scouts must be WAY more liberal than Boy Scouts. :001_huh:

 

Thanks for the clarification!

 

It is a lot more liberal. The GG/GS movement has never been a part of the BS movement. It was started by Baden-Powell's wife, Olave Baden-Powell so there's a parallel but that's it.

[OH_Homeschooler]

The grace analogy would be that I wouldn't be allowed to express my religious beliefs, and therefore it would technically be an infringement upon my rights. Its not 'just' a behaviour, but an expression of a 'deeply rooted belief'. It would be obviously inappropriate to bring tracts, start praying, etc, etc in a secular group, and yet expressing my faith is covered both by freedom of religion and free speach, so I *could*, technically, make a stink and demand my rights and freedoms...Or, go with the flow, or find another group.

 

And yet, that stuff happens all the time. For example, at my favorite coffee shop, I always see groups of people praying loudly. Religious signs are posted all over the place. Christians even knock on my door when my kids are sleeping (waking them up) to try to recruit me to their church. As an atheist, I'm bombarded with religious messages everywhere I go, and even when I'm in my own home.

 

I said I get that the BSA has the right, and I will not have my kid join. I'm not going to raise a stink about it. But I will honestly say I'm disappointed because there seem to be quite a few good things he could get from it, and there really are not the other options available here for him.

[QueenCat]

My DH and a number of my male friends had really good experiences as Boy Scouts, and none recall there being an emphasis on religion.

 

My boys have been in two troops, due to a move, and one pack. None of them emphasized the religious badges or requirements.

[LucyStoner]

No, I don't believe homosexuality is the reason for declining enrollment. SC admits girls and gays, and it hasn't helped it's membership. For people to say that BSA's membership decline is because of the homosexuality issue is disingenuous as well.

 

 

The reason? No. A reason? Yes. I know dozens of parents that will not let their kids join because the this stance. Most of the scouting families I know (my son is a Bear level cub scout, this is our 3rd year with it) are opposed these rules, even at the higher local levels. Now I live in a pretty progressive area of the country, but we are not alone. The national organization knows this and would have to say goodbye to some big areas and cities if they actively screened people out, rather than largely ignoring people ignoring the rule on homosexuality in progressive areas.

 

In time, this policy will change.

[Lady Florida.]

Well, one person's free speech can be interpreted by another as whining. I don't have a problem with people discussing it. Does it get old for me sure, but oh well.

 

You could choose not to read the thread.

 

I would never compare not letting homosexuals into Boy Scouts with murdering babies. When someone trots that out as an example it does little to influence me.

 

The point is the Supreme Court made a decision, whether you like the comparison or not. You can't trot out the Supreme Court as the final answer only when their decision is one you agree with.

Edited August 31, 2011 by floridamom
fixed quotes

[Jenny in Florida]

The reason? No. A reason? Yes. I know dozens of parents that will not let their kids join because the this stance.

 

Exactly. My son would have LOVED to be a scout, but we didn't allow him to join because of their policies regarding religion and homosexuality. He did participate with Camp Fire for a while and is now begging to go back, but there is not a local club, and I'm not into doing the 45-minute drive right now.

 

We know many people who have not allowed Boy Scouts specifically for these reasons. And our church, which used to sponsor a troop, severed ties 10 years ago because of BSA's stance on those issues.

 

So, I'm sure it's not "the reason," but I suspect it is a factor.

[Lady Florida.]

That said, the contemporary BSA is not for us, so I have been looking into alternatives. Unfortunately, I can't find anything already up and running near us, so I am thinking of trying to start something. I live in a quite liberal neighborhood with an active cub scout troop, so I have to think that other parents would be interested in that sort of thing.

 

A friend and I started a Camp Fire USA club. It was hard work to get it going, but worth it. Our boys were glad to have a group that believes they can grow into the best kind of citizen without believing in a deity. The club fizzled out, but our two are still working individually and go to occasional meetings at our Council office so they can be with the other club members.

[Lady Florida.]

I don't consider it bigotry. Some do.

 

I consider abortion murder. Some do not. I'm not candy coating anything.

 

 

I don't consider it murder. Neither does the Supreme Court. Some do.

 

Bigotry on the other hand, should be pointed out whenever and wherever it exists. My opinion. You're free to disagree.

[Laura Corin]

The demise of BSA won't be the homosexuality issue, it will be the changes made from coercion from people that are pro-homosexual wanting to destroy it.

 

The UK scout organisation (which admits girls, by the way) does not exclude atheists or gay people. There is no sign of its demise: it's very popular.

 

Laura

Edited August 31, 2011 by Laura Corin

[JennyD]

A friend and I started a Camp Fire USA club. It was hard work to get it going, but worth it. Our boys were glad to have a group that believes they can grow into the best kind of citizen without believing in a deity. The club fizzled out, but our two are still working individually and go to occasional meetings at our Council office so they can be with the other club members.

 

That's good to hear! There doesn't even seem to be a council office in my state, but I have "Call Campfire" on my list of things to do. I'll see what, if anything, they can suggest.

[mom2scouts]

WOW. :confused: I am a Christian, but how horrible! Excluding children because they believe what they have been brought up to believe breaks my heart. Agnostics often believe in a higher power...just not sure about the whole thing. My ex husband was agnostic for a period of time...and so was I. He is now athiest and I am Christian...go figure. LOL Anyway...I don't like that one little bit. It hurts me when groups exclude others "in the name of the Lord." That is NOT what Jesus did and that is not a good representation of who *I* choose to be as a Christian.

 

The problem is that Boy Scouts has some religious requirements. If you don't practice any religion, it's pretty hard to participate in the requirements. We have very religious families, UUs families and non church attending families in our Pack. We allow them to work on the religious requirements at home in their own way.

[mom2scouts]

Just for the record Girl Scouts absolutely DO discriminate against the non-religious. My husband was VERY available to our dd's scouting activities, even took them camping, which I loathe. But, he could never be a leader or official volunteer due to his non-belief. :glare:

 

DD is no longer a scout.

 

Also, I don't think anyone brought up the point that Girl Scouts discriminate against MEN! Men are not allowed to be GS leaders, but women have been welcomed into all positions of Boy Scout leadership for many years.

[Jennifer3141]

Also, I don't think anyone brought up the point that Girl Scouts discriminate against MEN! Men are not allowed to be GS leaders, but women have been welcomed into all positions of Boy Scout leadership for many years.

 

 

Well, no offense to the men of the world but it IS the moms who do the majority of this type of activity, at least around here.

 

And I would not send my girl to a troop run by a man. No way.

 

But without moms running BS troops, I'm guessing there would be a lot fewer troops!!

[SailorMom]

I understand that people probably don't like many of the policies, and that's good. I just could never support organizational homophobia, even if I didn't see it, etc. My best friend is a lesbian, as is my closest cousin. I live in a very gay-friendly area and have had many other gay friends. That may be why I feel so strongly about it.

 

My sil is a lesbian - we're very close, and she's fine with BSA.

[8circles]

Well, no offense to the men of the world but it IS the moms who do the majority of this type of activity, at least around here.

 

And I would not send my girl to a troop run by a man. No way.

 

But without moms running BS troops, I'm guessing there would be a lot fewer troops!!

 

Curious - why not?

[SailorMom]

 

I don't know how I'd look my gay friends in the face again if I knew my children were involved with a group that specifically excluded them or gay children.

 

See above post - my sil is a lesbian. FYI - we're originally from CA, and have many gay friends. As far as I know - not one of them has a problem with our sons being in BSA.....

[OH_Homeschooler]

My sil is a lesbian - we're very close, and she's fine with BSA.

 

I'm not a racist, some of my best friends are black!

[Jennifer3141]

Curious - why not?

 

Because more men molest children that women do. I carefully vet the adults in my kids' lives. I do not trust an organization to do it as well as I do.

[Jenny in Florida]

I'm not a racist, some of my best friends are black!

 

I was thinking the same thing!

[Ipsey]

The problem is that Boy Scouts has some religious requirements. If you don't practice any religion, it's pretty hard to participate in the requirements. We have very religious families, UUs families and non church attending families in our Pack. We allow them to work on the religious requirements at home in their own way.

 

What kind of religious requirements are there?

 

My husband grew up in a religious home; all Catholic. He went to Mass weekly and was an altar boy. Went to CDC (or whatever the teaching classes are called). It was something children in the family were expected to do. He was an atheist however.

 

Would he have met the requirements because he participated in religious life, in spite of being Atheist?

 

I just didn't know about this, but am very interested!

[mirth]

Also, I don't think anyone brought up the point that Girl Scouts discriminate against MEN! Men are not allowed to be GS leaders, but women have been welcomed into all positions of Boy Scout leadership for many years.

 

Good point. (Wow, I didn't know this about GS. Really, there are no male leaders?)

[Tangerine]

My sil is a lesbian - we're very close, and she's fine with BSA.

 

You could find the occasional black person who is ok with race restricted country clubs. One doesn't speak for the group, nor does it automatically make it ethical.

[Ipsey]

See above post - my sil is a lesbian. FYI - we're originally from CA, and have many gay friends. As far as I know - not one of them has a problem with our sons being in BSA.....

 

No, no, I understand. I'm sure many don't have an issue with it. But my conscience would get to me. And I would feel bad about it.

 

I second Tangerine's point. Some can let it go. This one sticks in my conscience.

[SailorMom]

I think part of the reason people get upset at the discrimination in Boy Scouts is because it's such a prevalent organization in public schools and its receiving government benefits. For kids who go to public schools and want to do an extracurricular group with friends from school, Boy Scouts and Girls Scouts are basically it. They are the only organizations that hold regularly scheduled meetings at most elementary schools. The schools give out information, they allow them to use their facilities free of charge, they support them - even schools with required uniforms will allow the scouts to wear their scouting uniform instead on special occassions. No other organization gets this kind of support from public schools.

 

If it was handled as a PRIVATE organization in all aspects and was marketed as a Christian/religious organzation - most people wouldn't have a problem with it. My son was eligible to join Cub Scouts this year and I spent some time talking with the other t-ball moms about it. A lot of people (especially around here which is very secular), especially those with younger children just starting out in scouts, are unaware of how discriminatory and political they are. Many just think of it as a fun activity for boys. The fact that Girl Scouts is handled very differently just adds to the confusion.

 

I know there are other organizations available. Believe me, I have looked into all of them. None are as wide-spread as Boy and Girl Scouts, none have the strength on a national level (except maybe 4-H but even that is smaller in urban areas) and not everyone has the ability to just start up their own group.

 

BSA packs and troops can MEET at schools, but not be 'chartered' by schools recieving public funding. So - for example, the pack my sons went to here was aloowed to use the cafeteria for Pack meetings once a month (not for regular meetings), but only because the PTA at the school was our sponsor and they asked to use the space for us.

 

It has actually become against the law for a PS to support BSA. Sure kids can wear thier uniforms, and they allow fliers to be handed out - but MANY other organization handed out fliers at that school - many clubs - AWANAS, 4-H, all the rec sports, karate clubs, etc.

I don't see how anyone, anymore, can say BSA is getting special support unless a PS is breaking the law.

[SailorMom]

Also, I don't think anyone brought up the point that Girl Scouts discriminate against MEN! Men are not allowed to be GS leaders, but women have been welcomed into all positions of Boy Scout leadership for many years.

 

Yes - I've been a committee member for years, a den leader, and Cub Master. Women are allowed to be Scoutmasters. There are NO positions women can't fill in BSA.

[mom2scouts]

It only gets in the way if the adults put it there. :tongue_smilie:

Believe me, the adults WILL put them there and it won't be the Scout leaders. I'm just happy that our Cub Scout Pack has doubled in size in the past two years and we're having a great time. My daughter, however, will not be joining Girl Scouts. I guess she'll have to wait until she's 14 and can join the BSA Venturing program. (Maybe that's age discrimination?)

[SailorMom]

I'm not a racist, some of my best friends are black!

 

Are you kidding me - seriously????

 

No wonder these threads go the way they do. So many emotional people who can't have a civil discussion without throwing insults around.

 

I have insulted no one, I have only offerred my personal - very non-inflamatory- opinion and info about our lives, and have given accurate info on BSA, and you're basically coming back and calling me a homophobe.

 

Very mature.

[SailorMom]

You could find the occasional black person who is ok with race restricted country clubs. One doesn't speak for the group, nor does it automatically make it ethical.

 

 

My point was more that I am not sheltered from LGBT people, that I have friends and family as well, and still am ok with it, and don't feel like I'm betraying them. And yes - none of the people i know have an issue with it.

 

And if you truly believe what you just typed, I'd like to actually be given an example. Saying ridiculous things to make a point still makes them ridiculous.

[Tangerine]

My point was more that I am not sheltered from LGBT people, that I have friendfs and fmaily as well, and still am ok with it.

 

And if you truly believe what you just typed, I'd like to actually be given an example. Saying ridiculous things to make a point still makes them ridiculous.

 

 

You want me to find a black person who doesn't have a problem with race restricted country clubs?

 

I really don't understand why what I said is ridiculous. It seems like a pretty close parallel to an isolated gay person who is ok with sexual preference restricted organizations.

[WishboneDawn]

Because more men molest children that women do. I carefully vet the adults in my kids' lives. I do not trust an organization to do it as well as I do.

 

I don't think men should be involved in GG/GS as leaders but not for that reason. I think it's a place for girls to find female mentors and feel comfortable talking about topics related to gender. Personally, I think SC would benefit if it were men only.

 

But the reality is the vast majority of volunteers in these situations are women. I think the reason SC let girls join has more to do with the realities of who their adult volunteers were then with worries about gender discrimination.

[WishboneDawn]

Because more men molest children that women do. I carefully vet the adults in my kids' lives. I do not trust an organization to do it as well as I do.

 

I don't vet the adults in my life as carefully as groups like GG/BSA/whatever. I don't demand police and sex offender registry checks for instance.

[SailorMom]

No, no, I understand. I'm sure many don't have an issue with it. But my conscience would get to me. And I would feel bad about it.

 

I second Tangerine's point. Some can let it go. This one sticks in my conscience.

 

 

Yeah - that makes sense. It does bother me, and again - I'm one of those trying to work from within for preogress and change.

BSA only started letting women become CubMasters in 1977, and even later for Scoutmasters. I do believe they will change, but not if everyone who disagrees with all of thier policy simply turns away in anger. Organizations don't change overnight, and really, the public acceptance of LGBT in the general public is only about 15 years old.

 

The military just caught up for heaven's sake, and talk about being supported by tax dollars!!!! I think that is another reason I think a lot of this conversation is a bit silly - unless you (the general you) were out picketting the military and protesting your tax dollars going to it before next month - well - it's pretty hypocritical.

[SailorMom]

You want me to find a black person who doesn't have a problem with race restricted country clubs?

 

I really don't understand why what I said is ridiculous. It seems like a pretty close parallel to an isolated gay person who is ok with sexual preference restricted organizations.

 

 

Isolated???? Are you kidding me??? You think I don't know her partner, her friends? My neighbors who love the scouts and always want us in the parades for the city that they organize???

[Tangerine]

.

Edited August 31, 2011 by Tangerine
.

[Ipsey]

Yeah - that makes sense. It does bother me, and again - I'm one of those trying to work from within for preogress and change.

BSA only started letting women become CubMasters in 1977, and even later for Scoutmasters. I do believe they will change, but not if everyone who disagrees with all of thier policy simply turns away in anger. Organizations don't change overnight, and really, the public acceptance of LGBT in the general public is only about 15 years old.

 

The military just caught up for heaven's sake, and talk about being supported by tax dollars!!!! I think that is another reason I think a lot of this conversation is a bit silly - unless you (the general you) were out picketting the military and protesting your tax dollars going to it before next month - well - it's pretty hypocritical.

 

I can see your point, and I do agree that it will change, but. . . just can't now.

Yes, my tax dollars are going to the military, but me not paying taxes won't help--it'll get me arrested. Me not putting my son in Scouts might not help either, but it's willfully opting out of something I'm not required to do anyway. Furthermore, he's an atheist, so far as he last told me. He's not welcome there. I'll let the believers inside of Scouts change it, if they really want to welcome us and GLBT folks.

 

I don't see that as hypocrisy.

[KarenNC]

Yes. If I came across like, "someone chased us down and yelled at us for not believing in god" then I apologize. I didn't mean to characterize it that way. There was something on the form about "will uphold the oath", I think, which includes belief in god. It wasn't a "Well, I NEVA!" kinda' thing, it was more of a personal integrity issue: How could we attest to something that we do not believe? It would have felt like lying.

 

If the GS did not specifically say in the trainings/literature that it was fine to substitute "God" with whatever worked for you, then I would agree. I love high church music and liturgy, but can't honestly recite the Nicene Creed, which is why we are no longer Episcopalians. But the GS do indeed specifically give that opportunity to substitute, so IMO, it's not a conflict.

 

Here's what our council's leader handbook says:

http://www.hngirlscouts.org/content_documents/LeaderHandbook09.pdf

Any adult, female or male, who believes in the principles

of Girl Scouts and can serve as a positive role model for girls

can apply to be a Girl Scout leader.....

QUALIFICATIONS:

* Ability and interest to work with girls ages 5-17 and

work well with adults

* Believe in the aims and purposes of the Girl Scout

organization and subscribe to the principles expressed in

the Promise and Law.

* Be willing to abide by the policies and standards of Girl

Scouts, Hornets’ Nest Council and Girl Scouts of the USA

* Register as a member of Girl Scouts of the USA

 

and here's the part about substitutes:

Girl Scouts is open to all girls, ages 5-17, regardless of

race, religion, national origin, physical ability, or socio-economic

factors who:

* accept the Girl Scout Promise and Law (girls may

substitute their own faith’s word in the Promise)

* accept the principles and beliefs of Girl Scouting

* pay yearly membership dues

 

So, the way I read it, girls and leaders are welcome to substitute whatever they see fit,m be that Allah, the Olympians, the Christian version of God, the Jewish version of God, science, etc or remain silent on that part. That's how we handled it on our troop. I don't personally see why one could not with integrity say they were upholding the principles of Girl Scouting (as I read them, that's committing to serving something outside of just one's own self-interest) while not saying "serve God." I like "the good" myself.

[JadeOrchidSong]

Yup. And how is it fair, for all the families currently involved in BSA, who are pleased with the organization and likely part of the attraction is because of the faith inclusion rather than despite it, to demand that it gets tossed out? Isn't that in itself discriminatory, to tell them, "Sorry, can't have that" even though its been that way from the start, and is part of why you joined?

 

:iagree:Strongly agreed!!!:iagree:

 

 

If you are not happy about cub scout or boy scout or any organization for that matter, you can join another organization that matches your beliefs or

simply start your own.

Edited August 31, 2011 by aomom

[Tangerine]

Here's what our council's leader handbook says:

http://www.hngirlscouts.org/content_documents/LeaderHandbook09.pdf

Any adult, female or male, who believes in the principles

of Girl Scouts and can serve as a positive role model for girls

can apply to be a Girl Scout leader.....

 

Awesome. :D

[FriedClams]

If you are not happy about cub scout or boy scout or any organization for that matter, you can join another organization that matches your beliefs or

simply start your own.

 

[/b]

 

:iagree:

[Jennifer3141]

I don't vet the adults in my life as carefully as groups like GG/BSA/whatever. I don't demand police and sex offender registry checks for instance.

 

 

Really? Because when I hired a babysitter, I did check her record. Seems like a non-issue to do so. I also checked her references carefully - I know from turning in my GS paperwork as a leader that out local council did NOT do this. They did a criminal check and called it good.

[WishboneDawn]

Really? Because when I hired a babysitter, I did check her record. Seems like a non-issue to do so. I also checked her references carefully - I know from turning in my GS paperwork as a leader that out local council did NOT do this. They did a criminal check and called it good.

 

I've never hired a babysitter. My sister and MIL would be appalled that I didn't call them first. :D

 

ETA: When I filled out the paperwork to be a leader for GGs I had to get a police records/sex offenders check, get interviewed and provide references.