Jenny in Florida Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 Still, I don't think the BSA or Scouts Canada has done a good job in communicating that message. They're known for the skills and camping and they seem content to leave that as their public image. Which is exactly why I believe it is important to participate in conversations like this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plucky Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 Do you really think that everybody who has a child in the BSA supports their policies on religion and homosexuality? Of course not. Are you going to get upset and complain though if they do start enforcing their policies? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julie Smith Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 No, if there wasn't support for the BSAs way of doing things then people wouldn't join. I think you are deflecting. Many people aren't joining. Total membership in BSA's traditional programs has declined by approximately 27% (969,360 members), since 1997! http://www.bsa-discrimination.org/html/bsa_membership.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twoforjoy Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 Of course not. Are you going to get upset and complain though if they do start enforcing their policies? No, I'll just pull my son if it becomes an issue. But I'm assuming there aren't many anti-gay diatribes in Cub Scout meetings or too many Cub Scouts forced out for being atheists. My hope is that those things just don't come up at this level anyway and wouldn't be an issue in his particular pack. And, once he's old enough that those things might become issues, whether I like it or not, he'll probably be old enough to decide for himself whether or not he wants to be a part of the organization given those policies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plucky Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 Many people aren't joining. Total membership in BSA's traditional programs has declined by approximately 27% (969,360 members), since 1997! http://www.bsa-discrimination.org/html/bsa_membership.html That is true. It is shrinking. I think the largest troops we have in our area are the LDS ones. There are so many different organizations vying for people's time. To really get a good outcome from scouts parents should be involved, so many want to drop off. I know plenty of families that have dropped out because they didn't have time for scouts. Totally reasonable. There are sports, jobs, activities that take the place of scouts. Also totally reasonable. I believe that Canadian Boy Scouts have also shrank and they allow homosexuals. Some that used to go to their organization quit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plucky Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 No, I'll just pull my son if it becomes an issue. But I'm assuming there aren't many anti-gay diatribes in Cub Scout meetings or too many Cub Scouts forced out for being atheists. My hope is that those things just don't come up at this level anyway and wouldn't be an issue in his particular pack. And, once he's old enough that those things might become issues, whether I like it or not, he'll probably be old enough to decide for himself whether or not he wants to be a part of the organization given those policies. Do you know that homosexuality never comes up in our troop? We pray, have chaplains, and religious leaders attend our ceremonies, but we don't discuss homosexuality. It just doesn't come up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WishboneDawn Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 (edited) No, I'll just pull my son if it becomes an issue. But I'm assuming there aren't many anti-gay diatribes in Cub Scout meetings or too many Cub Scouts forced out for being atheists. My hope is that those things just don't come up at this level anyway and wouldn't be an issue in his particular pack. And, once he's old enough that those things might become issues, whether I like it or not, he'll probably be old enough to decide for himself whether or not he wants to be a part of the organization given those policies. I think it becomes your ethical issue too though. If he's involved, so are you. You'll be supporting him and so the organization. *sigh* Not sure how I'd deal with it. Here in Canada I'm okay, sort of. I know my agnostic husband doesn't see an issue with him being excluded from the Scouts. He think it's reasonable I guess. But I think that if it were the BSA I might have to find something else? Hard stuff to navigate! Edited August 31, 2011 by WishboneDawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julie Smith Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 That is true. It is shrinking. I think the largest troops we have in our area are the LDS ones. There are so many different organizations vying for people's time. To really get a good outcome from scouts parents should be involved, so many want to drop off. I know plenty of families that have dropped out because they didn't have time for scouts. Totally reasonable. There are sports, jobs, activities that take the place of scouts. Also totally reasonable. I believe that Canadian Boy Scouts have also shrank and they allow homosexuals. Some that used to go to their organization quit. The shrinking enrollment may be because of the various other choices for parents of children. I found the article I linked to was very fair in stating that might be one of the reasons for shrinking enrollment in BSA. But there might be others. I do know that BSA is starting to become very worried about the enrollment rates that keep decreasing every year even though the number of available youth has been increasing. Some thoughts to why include: One must consider that according to a 2008 Gallup survey, "57% of Americans agree that homosexuality should be considered acceptable." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plucky Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 If the answer to the BSAs membership decline is including homosexuals, why is Canada Scouting memberships declining at a faster rate than the BSA. CS admits girls and homosexuals. http://www.scoutscan.com/issues/membershipstats.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julie Smith Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 (edited) If the answer to the BSAs membership decline is including homosexuals, why is Canada Scouting memberships declining at a faster rate than the BSA. CS admits girls and homosexuals. I was looking for stats comparing the declining membership of BSA with Scouts Canada. (With hopefully reference to when Scouts Canada starting allowing homosexuals and girls) But I couldn't find any. Please post you links to the Scouts Canada declining numbers. I have the declining numbers for BSA. I admit I have trouble finding out thinks about Scouts Canada since Canada has two Scout associations, and one if french. My french is not very good and I could in no way successfully read complex information in french, and several articles are in french. Oh, Sorry. I missed your link. Edited August 31, 2011 by Julie Smith To add that I missed the link. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plucky Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 I was looking for stats comparing the declining membership of BSA with Scouts Canada. (With hopefully reference to when Scouts Canada starting allowing homosexuals and girls) But I couldn't find any. Please post you links to the Scouts Canada declining numbers. I have the declining numbers for BSA. I admit I have trouble finding out thinks about Scouts Canada since Canada has two Scout associations, and one if french. My french is not very good and I could in no way successfully read complex information in french, and several articles are in french. I linked it before you posted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ipsey Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 Wait a minute though. BSA does have, from what I've read here, quite an emphasis on faith and belief. To those outside the group it may seem to be mainly about survival skills or selling popcorn but it's pretty obvious that's not the case for many of those running the organization. Otherwise, why the badges related to God and faith? It's not quite fair for us to bring up the aspects of the BSA that would make it uncomfortable for an atheist kid and then maintain those aspects have nothing to do with how Boy Scouts are supposed to act. If it's in the program, it's likely because the BSA believes it's integral to being a BSA. I didn't understand that belief in God and faith were requirements for being good and doing the right, moral thing. But I know many people/organizations do. I have no problem with any religious person doing good things and saying they're doing them because they believe in God. My kid can be just as moral and upright as any religious kid. My husband was in Scouts for years, as an atheist, and never had the impression that it was a religious institution. That's fine that there are badges for faith. Just like there are badges for lots of things. Kids aren't required to earn them all, are they? If my atheist kid didn't want to earn a religion badge, that would be no skin off my nose. How many religion badges are there, by the way? Again, I have no problem with the BSA having the right to say anyone is excluded. But I have the right also to say I don't like specific policies. And I agree, the BSA should not receive any government funding/goodies if they don't follow the rules. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WishboneDawn Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 The shrinking enrollment may be because of the various other choices for parents of children. I found the article I linked to was very fair in stating that might be one of the reasons for shrinking enrollment in BSA. But there might be others. I do know that BSA is starting to become very worried about the enrollment rates that keep decreasing every year even though the number of available youth has been increasing. Some thoughts to why include: One must consider that according to a 2008 Gallup survey, "57% of Americans agree that homosexuality should be considered acceptable." I think even amongst some of those who disagree with homosexuality, even on religious grounds, there's a shift. I have friends who are more conservative in their faith then I am and while they disapprove of homosexuality it doesn't always translate into thinking it's unacceptable for homosexuals to be involved in groups involving children. True Blue - there are a lot of factors at play up here. I'm not discounting your hypothesis completely but consider that Canada is generally more secular then the US and has higher rates of acceptance of homosexuality then the US as well. It seems very unlikely that an inclusive attitude towards homosexuality in Scouts Canada is the reason for declining enrollment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plucky Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 I think even amongst some of those who disagree with homosexuality, even on religious grounds, there's a shift. I have friends who are more conservative in their faith then I am and while they disapprove of homosexuality it doesn't always translate into thinking it's unacceptable for homosexuals to be involved in groups involving children. True Blue - there are a lot of factors at play up here. I'm not discounting your hypothesis completely but consider that Canada is generally more secular then the US and has higher rates of acceptance of homosexuality then the US as well. It seems very unlikely that an inclusive attitude towards homosexuality in Scouts Canada is the reason for declining enrollment. No, I don't believe homosexuality is the reason for declining enrollment. SC admits girls and gays, and it hasn't helped it's membership. For people to say that BSA's membership decline is because of the homosexuality issue is disingenuous as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Florida. Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 I'm disappointed in this thread. I'm fine with most BSA policies. Why? A woman who is an atheist asked about the religious policy of BSA. People responded, and along with their responses gave their opinions of the policies. They are allowed to to that. The whining gets old. I don't see whining. I see statements regarding why some of us would never put our boys in Boy Scouts, or why we pulled them out. I see people disagreeing with BSA's policies and calling them what they are. The Supreme Court declared it legal. If people don't like it find another organization or create another.I know the "A" word is not good to bring up on this forum, but the Supreme Court declared that legal too. How do many Christians feel about being told to just deal with that fact? Why are they fighting to make it illegal again? Just because the Supreme Court declared something legal is not reason for those who disagree with the SCOTUS to give up trying to change things. I personally hope they're unsuccessful on that front, but I support their right to try. I think it's the fact that BSA is such a large group, with so much backing, you can find it anywhere, it's widely recognized, and has so many ways people can participate. People, including atheists and gays, want to be a part of it, for all of it's benefits--many of which have to do with the fact that's it's a group that's been around for so long and is established. It's a bit of a shock to find out they can discriminate against groups of people whose non-belief and sexual identity don't have anything to do with decent behavior and the skills Boy Scouts are supposed to exhibit. If BSA was a p!ssant little group, no one would care. :iagree:That and the fact that in many communities BSA still gets government support. That is understandable. I don't want people signing up for something they haven't researched. It's surprising to that people would put their kids in something that they didn't research. If someone joins scouts and finds they don't like it or have conflicting beliefs they don't have to stay, and they aren't trapped. :001_smile: :iagree:Many people use these forums as part of their research. Someone asking about policies and experiences in BSA can be part (not all, not by any means) their research, can it not? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LidiyaDawn Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 If the answer to the BSAs membership decline is including homosexuals, why is Canada Scouting memberships declining at a faster rate than the BSA. CS admits girls and homosexuals. http://www.scoutscan.com/issues/membershipstats.html I think it's mostly because not as many kids these days are interested in (or have time for) that sort of activity/organization anymore. About the boy scout thing.. you know what bugs me the most about the whole 'keep out the atheists/agnostics/GLBT/etc' stuff? It's not that a private organization shouldn't do what it wants (although I wouldn't want to support that in any way either) it's that this is a HUGE group thing for kids. KIDS… kids who generally don't care if someone believes in God (or any other deity), don't care if someone is GLBT… they just want to hang and have fun together. Kids only begin to care about those things when adults bring it into their lives. They aren't born thinking that you can't be a good citizen without a belief in a deity. [or whatever else] I dunno. That just feels blech to me. Can't the kids just all have fun together without all the messy grown up crap getting in the way? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WishboneDawn Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 Again, I have no problem with the BSA having the right to say anyone is excluded. But I have the right also to say I don't like specific policies. And I agree, the BSA should not receive any government funding/goodies if they don't follow the rules. I agree completely with this. If they want to exclude some, fine, but they should understand that choice comes with a trade off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plucky Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 Why? A woman who is an atheist asked about the religious policy of BSA. People responded, and along with their responses gave their opinions of the policies. They are allowed to to that. I don't see whining. I see statements regarding why some of us would never put our boys in Boy Scouts, or why we pulled them out. I see people disagreeing with BSA's policies and calling them what they are. I know the "A" word is not good to bring up on this forum, but the Supreme Court declared that legal too. How do many Christians feel about being told to just deal with that fact? Why are they fighting to make it illegal again? Just because the Supreme Court declared something legal is not reason for those who disagree with the SCOTUS to give up trying to change things. I personally hope they're unsuccessful on that front, but I support their right to try. :iagree:That and the fact that in many communities BSA still gets government support. :iagree:Many people use these forums as part of their research. Someone asking about policies and experiences in BSA can be part (not all, not by any means) their research, can it not? Well, one person's free speech can be interpreted by another as whining. I don't have a problem with people discussing it. Does it get old for me sure, but oh well. I would never compare not letting homosexuals into Boy Scouts with murdering babies. When someone trots that out as an example it does little to influence me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plucky Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 I think it's mostly because not as many kids these days are interested in (or have time for) that sort of activity/organization anymore. About the boy scout thing.. you know what bugs me the most about the whole 'keep out the atheists/agnostics/GLBT/etc' stuff? It's not that a private organization shouldn't do what it wants (although I wouldn't want to support that in any way either) it's that this is a HUGE group thing for kids. KIDS… kids who generally don't care if someone believes in God (or any other deity), don't care if someone is GLBT… they just want to hang and have fun together. Kids only begin to care about those things when adults bring it into their lives. They aren't born thinking that you can't be a good citizen without a belief in a deity. [or whatever else] I dunno. That just feels blech to me. Can't the kids just all have fun together without all the messy grown up crap getting in the way? That would be nice wouldn't it? But messy adult crap, always, always get in the way. That is why organizations have policies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoggirl Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 Wonder if the mods are still experiencing a power outage. I'm surprised this thread is still going. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plucky Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 Wonder if the mods are still experiencing a power outage. I'm surprised this thread is still going. Aww, come on. I was a little irritated earlier, but now I am enjoying the discussion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wheres Toto Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 I think part of the reason people get upset at the discrimination in Boy Scouts is because it's such a prevalent organization in public schools and its receiving government benefits. For kids who go to public schools and want to do an extracurricular group with friends from school, Boy Scouts and Girls Scouts are basically it. They are the only organizations that hold regularly scheduled meetings at most elementary schools. The schools give out information, they allow them to use their facilities free of charge, they support them - even schools with required uniforms will allow the scouts to wear their scouting uniform instead on special occassions. No other organization gets this kind of support from public schools. If it was handled as a PRIVATE organization in all aspects and was marketed as a Christian/religious organzation - most people wouldn't have a problem with it. My son was eligible to join Cub Scouts this year and I spent some time talking with the other t-ball moms about it. A lot of people (especially around here which is very secular), especially those with younger children just starting out in scouts, are unaware of how discriminatory and political they are. Many just think of it as a fun activity for boys. The fact that Girl Scouts is handled very differently just adds to the confusion. I know there are other organizations available. Believe me, I have looked into all of them. None are as wide-spread as Boy and Girl Scouts, none have the strength on a national level (except maybe 4-H but even that is smaller in urban areas) and not everyone has the ability to just start up their own group. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catz Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 Wonder if the mods are still experiencing a power outage. I'm surprised this thread is still going. LOL - that's what I was thinking. :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julie Smith Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 Wonder if the mods are still experiencing a power outage. I'm surprised this thread is still going. I must admit I thought about that when posting. I tired to keep my posts as nice as possible. :) I think I'll go read those board rules again to see if I have violated any rules. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tangerine Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 Wonder if the mods are still experiencing a power outage. I'm surprised this thread is still going. Well now that we've got "baby murder" involved, it can't be long for this world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WishboneDawn Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 No, I don't believe homosexuality is the reason for declining enrollment. SC admits girls and gays, and it hasn't helped it's membership. For people to say that BSA's membership decline is because of the homosexuality issue is disingenuous as well. :confused:Showing that it hasn't helped in one situation doesn't mean it's not hurting it in others. Regardless, membership in a lot of groups for kids that attempt to appeal to the general population is declining these days. We're having the same issue in GGs. I suspect it has more to do with fractured families and communities then other issues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plucky Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 They may feel trapped, because their children love the camping and the popcorn sales and the uniforms and, at that point, neither know nor care about the policies of the larger organization. That's what I meant. Dear me, does anyone love the popcorn sales? Shudder. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plucky Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 Well now that we've got "baby murder" involved, it can't be long for this world. You called it the A word. I call it the BM word. I didn't introduce the topic. :001_smile: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tangerine Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 You called it the A word. I call it the BM word. I didn't introduce the topic. :001_smile: I didn't call it anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoggirl Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 Aww, come on. I was a little irritated earlier, but now I am enjoying the discussion. I am neither irritated nor failing to enjoy the discussion; I'm just surprised. :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catz Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 I must admit I thought about that when posting. I tired to keep my posts as nice as possible. :) I think I'll go read those board rules again to see if I have violated any rules. I think it's actually been a good, quite civil discussion. Although now baby murder is the mix :confused:, so maybe it's on it's way out! :tongue_smilie: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plucky Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 :confused:Showing that it hasn't helped in one situation doesn't mean it's not hurting it in others. Regardless, membership in a lot of groups for kids that attempt to appeal to the general population is declining these days. We're having the same issue in GGs. I suspect it has more to do with fractured families and communities then other issues. But there is no proof that it is hurting the organization. You say one reason that Canadian scouts may be hurting, but don't apply it to BSA? I'm confused. If the only thing BSA has to do to make it successful and not die - like people are claiming - is to allow homosexuals and not push the god issue - then why didn't it work for CS??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julie Smith Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 No, I don't believe homosexuality is the reason for declining enrollment. SC admits girls and gays, and it hasn't helped it's membership. For people to say that BSA's membership decline is because of the homosexuality issue is disingenuous as well. I said, "I wonder if it may affect". I hardly said that is does. It's something I can wonder about later. I admit comparing numbers, statistics, ... is something I really have to sit down and work hard at. I wish we had access to a time machine. Suddenly allow homosexuals and atheists into the scouting program, wait ten years and see how things stand. Then go back in time and try the reverse. Compare various stats. Yup, a time machine would make discussions like this easier. I personally want to say, "I hope no one gets banned on this thread, myself included." PS. I have no idea why, but every time I type atheist I add a extra "s" in the middle and have to get spell checker to correct me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ipsey Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 Oh, my! I didn't even know what "A" was referring too. I though. . ."adultery?" Guess I'm too much of a newbie :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WishboneDawn Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 But there is no proof that it is hurting the organization. You say one reason that Canadian scouts may be hurting, but don't apply it to BSA? I'm confused. If the only thing BSA has to do to make it successful and not die - like people are claiming - is to allow homosexuals and not push the god issue - then why didn't it work for CS??? I'm not stating any opinion on the connection between membership and homosexuality. I was only stating that because being open to homosexuals in one context doesn't seems to help SC does NOT mean that it's not the reason it doesn't hurt the BSA. Whether it actually does hurt the BSA, I don't know. Haven't got a clue. The reason I gave for why enrollment in some groups is declining could WELL apply to the BSA. I mentioned that in the 2nd paragraph where I was talking about groups in general, Girl Guides included. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julie Smith Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 If the only thing BSA has to do to make it successful and not die - like people are claiming - is to allow homosexuals and not push the god issue - then why didn't it work for CS??? Scouts Canada still pushes the God issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WishboneDawn Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 PS. I have no idea why, but every time I type atheist I add a extra "s" in the middle and have to get spell checker to correct me. I generally type "athiest". My delicate Christian fingers just can't handle such a horrible word. :Angel_anim: (I can apparently handle making TeA with an agnostic man though:D) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tangerine Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 So, strenuous objection to "bigot", liberal use of "baby murder"... :001_huh: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plucky Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 Scouts Canada still pushes the God issue. So then the answer is religion? But wait, supposedly people don't have a problem with the religious aspect of it, since it is a religious organization. I thought BSA was unpopular because of the homosexuality issue. I don't think BSA can win. There are other organization that people can join that would make them happy. Why not join those organizations? Make these organizations wonderful and fabulous and then lure those that aren't entirely happy with BSA away. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plucky Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 So, strenuous objection to "bigot", liberal use of "baby murder"... :001_huh: Yep. I don't sugar coat that issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LidiyaDawn Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 I think it's mostly because not as many kids these days are interested in (or have time for) that sort of activity/organization anymore. About the boy scout thing.. you know what bugs me the most about the whole 'keep out the atheists/agnostics/GLBT/etc' stuff? It's not that a private organization shouldn't do what it wants (although I wouldn't want to support that in any way either) it's that this is a HUGE group thing for kids. KIDS… kids who generally don't care if someone believes in God (or any other deity), don't care if someone is GLBT… they just want to hang and have fun together. Kids only begin to care about those things when adults bring it into their lives. They aren't born thinking that you can't be a good citizen without a belief in a deity. [or whatever else] I dunno. That just feels blech to me. Can't the kids just all have fun together without all the messy grown up crap getting in the way? That would be nice wouldn't it? But messy adult crap, always, always get in the way. That is why organizations have policies. It only gets in the way if the adults put it there. :tongue_smilie: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KungFuPanda Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 Right now, BSA is enjoying the luxury of being a private organization AND receiving federal funds/favors that most private, religious organizations do not receive. They'll fight to have their cake and eat it too. I predict they'll one day have to choose one over the other and their discriminatory policies will fall to the wayside in the face of dwindling funds and enrollment. Another issue is that the people putting their children into scouts now either don't know about the controversy, OR were cub scouts as a child and remember scouting from a child's point of view. They often don't realize that BSA has gotten MORE discriminatory in the last few generations, largely due to increased involvement from the Mormon church at the higher levels. It's very interesting reading and I'm glad I don't have to think about it any more. I wasn't aware of these policies when my son was a cub scout for a few years. (We left because it wasn't a good fit for my physically disabled son.) A bit of good news for parents who are conflicted is that Cub Scouts and Boy Scouts aren't the same and there is an easy exit at the end of cubs. Unless, of course, your son is hooked . . . THEN you're in bigger trouble than you are now. :glare: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tangerine Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 Yep. I don't sugar coat that issue. Bigotry, however, should be candy coated? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julie Smith Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 So then the answer is religion? But wait, supposedly people don't have a problem with the religious aspect of it, since it is a religious organization. I thought BSA was unpopular because of the homosexuality issue. I don't think BSA can win. There are other organization that people can join that would make them happy. Why not join those organizations? Make these organizations wonderful and fabulous and then lure those that aren't entirely happy with BSA away. I have no problem with Scouts Canada as long as they receive no special treatment from the government. I do have a problem with BSA since it states: The Boy Scouts of America maintains that no member can grow into the best kind of citizen without recognising an obligation to God. I have problems with a organization that is allowed to teach that a person can not grow into "the best kind of citizen" without recognizing a obligation to god. I think that a organzation that believes in such a thing should not be allowed to operate and teach millions of children. Yes I would feel the same with if a organization was trying to teach the opposite. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plucky Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 It only gets in the way if the adults put it there. :tongue_smilie: But eventually someone has to make standards and policies. We've had numerous secular homeschool groups in my area keep imploding because parents keep fighting about rules, standards, etc. It's crazy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plucky Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 Bigotry, however, should be candy coated? I don't consider it bigotry. Some do. I consider abortion murder. Some do not. I'm not candy coating anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WishboneDawn Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 So then the answer is religion? But wait, supposedly people don't have a problem with the religious aspect of it, since it is a religious organization. I thought BSA was unpopular because of the homosexuality issue. I don't think BSA can win. There are other organization that people can join that would make them happy. Why not join those organizations? Make these organizations wonderful and fabulous and then lure those that aren't entirely happy with BSA away. :svengo: You take what's said so far beyond what's said.:001_smile: She just said, "Scouts Canada still pushes the God issue." That's a common factor with both the BSA and SC and both are seeing membership declines. It IS a correlation, might not be the cause but it might be a correlation worth exploring. We can discuss this without casting the BSA as winners or losers. We're just discussing, at this point, why the membership is declining right? It's not good or bad, it just IS. So why? Another answer to the decline may be, so what? Maybe it IS declining because of the "God issue" but maybe that's a good thing for the Boy Scouts as it might concentrate membership on a more targeted group of kids that the Boy Scouts appeals to more. Goodness know I've had kids in GG who really had no interest in being there. There are times I would have gladly taken a smaller troup of more focused girls. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OH_Homeschooler Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 I guess I just don't understand the discriminatory stance. Not all groups are suitable for all families, I thought that was a pretty normal situation. Its not like the Boy Scouts hide their stance, or use a sneaky way of going about things, its stated flat out. I mean, if I was joining a secular group, I wouldn't be upset that they didn't say grace before meals, and wouldn't consider it discriminatory that they didn't. To me, its kinda like complaining that AWANAS is religious. I suppose that any sort of rules governing any group would be considered discriminatory, b/c someone, somewhere would be left out. Well in the basic definition of the word "discrimination" there is discrimination going on. It is legal discrimination and as I said earlier, the BSA are entitled to it as a private organization. I'm entitled to be disappointed that I am not wanted because I am an atheist. But the reason I'm responding is I can't believe your argument that you would be fine joining a secular group that didn't say grace before meals. This is not the same thing. You are discussing a behavior (saying grace) versus a deeply-rooted belief system (secularism). You are equating not performing a behavior with completely excluding someone from membership. And I wonder, are you one of the people who will refuse to shop at stores around Christmas because they no longer say "Merry Christmas?" Because there are a lot of people who get very angry about that. And again, they're entitled to that but it's essentially the same as your grace before a meal analogy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JennyD Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 I have no beef with the Supreme Court's decision in the Dale case -- we do have a right of association, after all -- but I personally find it depressing that an organization that does so much good maintains that excluding atheists and gays is a crucial prerequisite for that same good. I will say that my atheist husband, who did Scouts for years and had a wonderful experience -- was completely baffled to hear about the faith requirement. At least in NJ in the 1980s, nobody could have cared less. And I have a friend who is an Eagle Scout who came out as gay as a teen and again, it was a nonissue (midwestern town, also in the 80s). That said, the contemporary BSA is not for us, so I have been looking into alternatives. Unfortunately, I can't find anything already up and running near us, so I am thinking of trying to start something. I live in a quite liberal neighborhood with an active cub scout troop, so I have to think that other parents would be interested in that sort of thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WishboneDawn Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 I have no problem with Scouts Canada as long as they receive no special treatment from the government. I do have a problem with BSA since it states: The Boy Scouts of America maintains that no member can grow into the best kind of citizen without recognising an obligation to God. I have problems with a organization that is allowed to teach that a person can not grow into "the best kind of citizen" without recognizing a obligation to god. I think that a organzation that believes in such a thing should not be allowed to operate and teach millions of children. Yes I would feel the same with if a organization was trying to teach the opposite. Ew. I missed that somehow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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