Cub Scouts vs. the nonreligious family

[jenn-]

I'm an Atheist and my husband is a nonpracticing Christian. I knew going into scouting I was going to run into some religious issues, but I didn't think they would hit me so soon.

 

All the local packs meet in a church so I picked the one that was closest and we didn't have to be a member of their specific church. My kids know how to be quiet during prayer time and do a better job than their mommy does with at least looking the part, so the opening pray thing didn't bother me much, as I kind of expected it.

 

I bought the Wolf handbook today and now I am concerned. In order to earn their Bobcat patch they have to define their pledge which of course means defining their duty to God. My first instinct is "say what". :confused: Then it got worse when I realized that one of the required units to move up to Bear for the year is labeled "Duty to God". I don't know how I am going to handle that one.

 

So I need some experienced scouting moms help here. What happens if a family in the group is nonreligious? Is this going to be a continuing issue for me? If it wouldn't break my boys' hearts to back out now, I probably would, but since it would, it is not an option right now.

[DawnM]

atheists are actually not allowed to be scouts. It doesn't matter what religion you are, it can be anything, but you cannot be atheist.

 

This was actually brought before the Supreme Court and it was deemed that since they are a private organization they can do whatever they want with this topic.

 

Dawn

[jenn-]

atheists are actually not allowed to be scouts. It doesn't matter what religion you are, it can be anything, but you cannot be atheist.

 

This was actually brought before the Supreme Court and it was deemed that since they are a private organization they can do whatever they want with this topic.

 

Dawn

 

Guess I'm glad my boys aren't old enough to make such a declaration. I'll make sure not to volunteer for anything other than the taxi service for my children.

[ondreeuh]

Our scout leader was very cool. He said we could check it off when we felt our scout fulfilled the requirements, which was up to our own definition. I just checked it off and called it good. No problems.

[Murphy101]

I would expect it to be an on-going issue.

 

Here is a helpful link.

 

http://www.bsalegal.org/duty-to-god-cases-224.asp

 

I suppose there might be plenty of troops that don't actually follow the part line, so to speak, but I would not expect that to be the case.

[Carrie12345]

This is one of the two reasons we do not do scouts. It's not just one patch, it's a large aspect of the organization.

[Mom-ninja.]

Perhaps check into another organization like Spiral Scouts or Boys and Girls Club? 4H?

 

Not sure how religious (or not) those are.

[catz]

This is one of the two reasons we do not do scouts. It's not just one patch, it's a large aspect of the organization.

 

:iagree: We started a secular camp fire group with some other families and it has been a good fit for us.

[LidiyaDawn]

I was an atheist as a kid - as were (are) my father and stepmother. I was also a Brownie and Girl Guide (similar to scouts, but just for girls) and the promises had something about "do my duty to God, the Queen, and my country" in them… I just said them like everyone else. *shrug*

[oldskool]

I was always under the impression that as a scout you had to have some belief in a higher power. For Girl Scouts it is not, but for Boy/Cub Scouts it is really a part of who they are and is weaved into many parts of scouting activities. That was our experience anyway.

 

Lesley

[LidiyaDawn]

atheists are actually not allowed to be scouts. It doesn't matter what religion you are, it can be anything, but you cannot be atheist.

 

So would a Pagan family be welcomed?

 

As to the "atheists aren't allowed" .. her boys aren't the atheists - she is. SHE isn't the scouting member. ;)

[Lady Florida.]

atheists are actually not allowed to be scouts. It doesn't matter what religion you are, it can be anything, but you cannot be atheist.

 

 

This is why my son left scouts. At first we just kept our mouths shut, but when we found out that BSA doesn't think you can be a truly good citizen without believing in a god, that was it. While this might not be reflected by people running your Pack (or Troop when they move up), it is still official policy.

 

from BSA Legal.org (bolded mine)

 

"Boy Scouts of America believes that no member can grow into the best kind of citizen without recognizing an obligation to God. Accordingly, youth members and adult volunteer leaders of Boy Scouts of America obligate themselves to do their duty to God and be reverent as embodied in the Scout Oath and the Scout Law. Leaders also must subscribe to the Declaration of Religious Principle. Because of its views concerning the duty to God, Boy Scouts of America believes that an atheist or agnostic is not an appropriate role model of the Scout Oath and Law for adolescent boys. Because of Scouting’s methods and beliefs, Scouting does not accept atheists and agnostics as members or adult volunteer leaders."

[Lady Florida.]

Perhaps check into another organization like Spiral Scouts or Boys and Girls Club? 4H?

 

Not sure how religious (or not) those are.

 

Or Camp Fire USA. That's where we headed after leaving Cub Scouts, and my son really likes it. They have a non-discrimination policy concerning religion or lack thereof, as well as sexual orientation.

[DawnM]

Well, she asked. I am just the messenger. She sounded like she is not comfortable with the concept and it sounds like maybe this isn't the organization for her.

 

I believe you can define yourself as any religion and be part of scouts, at least that is what I have read. I am not positive it has to be an organized religion, but it does have to define a "godhead" of some sort from my understanding.

 

Dawn

 

So would a Pagan family be welcomed?

 

As to the "atheists aren't allowed" .. her boys aren't the atheists - she is. SHE isn't the scouting member. ;)

[Ipsey]

I'm an Atheist and my husband is a nonpracticing Christian. I knew going into scouting I was going to run into some religious issues, but I didn't think they would hit me so soon.

 

All the local packs meet in a church so I picked the one that was closest and we didn't have to be a member of their specific church. My kids know how to be quiet during prayer time and do a better job than their mommy does with at least looking the part, so the opening pray thing didn't bother me much, as I kind of expected it.

 

I bought the Wolf handbook today and now I am concerned. In order to earn their Bobcat patch they have to define their pledge which of course means defining their duty to God. My first instinct is "say what". :confused: Then it got worse when I realized that one of the required units to move up to Bear for the year is labeled "Duty to God". I don't know how I am going to handle that one.

 

So I need some experienced scouting moms help here. What happens if a family in the group is nonreligious? Is this going to be a continuing issue for me? If it wouldn't break my boys' hearts to back out now, I probably would, but since it would, it is not an option right now.

 

When my husband was young, he used to just not say the God parts in the pledge. I don't know how he dealt with the rest. He was an atheist and still is. I'll be curious as to how my husband suggests we deal with this when my son, assuming he still an atheist, when it becomes an issue in scouts.

[Colleen]

"Boy Scouts of America believes that no member can grow into the best kind of citizen without recognizing an obligation to God. Accordingly, youth members and adult volunteer leaders of Boy Scouts of America obligate themselves to do their duty to God and be reverent as embodied in the Scout Oath and the Scout Law. Leaders also must subscribe to the Declaration of Religious Principle. Because of its views concerning the duty to God, Boy Scouts of America believes that an atheist or agnostic is not an appropriate role model of the Scout Oath and Law for adolescent boys. Because of Scouting’s methods and beliefs, Scouting does not accept atheists and agnostics as members or adult volunteer leaders."

This is an example of why I wouldn't do Boy Scouts ~ and I say that as a Christian. I can only imagine how much stronger I'd feel about it if I was an atheist or agnostic. I respect the organization's right to declare and adhere to their beliefs, but I can't subscribe to them. The fact that a particular troop is a-religious is beside the point; for me, it's the principle.

[Ipsey]

This is an example of why I wouldn't do Boy Scouts ~ and I say that as a Christian. I can only imagine how much stronger I'd feel about it if I was an atheist or agnostic. I respect the organization's right to declare and adhere to their beliefs, but I can't subscribe to them. The fact that a particular troop is a-religious is beside the point; for me, it's the principle.

 

I really struggle with it, honestly, and with their stance on gays. . .that really blows me away. Curiously, I was talking to the lesbian couple across the street, and a lesbian friend of theirs (in her middle age, and with a long-term partner) is a "professional" Girl Scout and is in charge of a large region of the country in some sort of capacity. I was floored, but glad that even though gays are discriminated against by the scouts, that some gay people are willing to fly under the radar in an anti-gay organization to be of help to it, and to others. I wonder if some of these issues are viewed with a nod and shrug in some areas.

[Carrie12345]

I really struggle with it, honestly, and with their stance on gays. . .that really blows me away. Curiously, I was talking to the lesbian couple across the street, and a lesbian friend of theirs (in her middle age, and with a long-term partner) is a "professional" Girl Scout and is in charge of a large region of the country in some sort of capacity. I was floored, but glad that even though gays are discriminated against by the scouts, that some gay people are willing to fly under the radar in an anti-gay organization to be of help to it, and to others. I wonder if some of these issues are viewed with a nod and shrug in some areas.

 

Girl Scouts do not discriminate. I forget that some people don't realize that the Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts are two completely separate organizations.

[momma2three]

I really struggle with it, honestly, and with their stance on gays. . .that really blows me away. Curiously, I was talking to the lesbian couple across the street, and a lesbian friend of theirs (in her middle age, and with a long-term partner) is a "professional" Girl Scout and is in charge of a large region of the country in some sort of capacity. I was floored, but glad that even though gays are discriminated against by the scouts, that some gay people are willing to fly under the radar in an anti-gay organization to be of help to it, and to others. I wonder if some of these issues are viewed with a nod and shrug in some areas.

 

Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts are not related to eachother. Girl Scouts accepts anyone.

[DawnM]

Girl scouts has different rules.

 

 

I really struggle with it, honestly, and with their stance on gays. . .that really blows me away. Curiously, I was talking to the lesbian couple across the street, and a lesbian friend of theirs (in her middle age, and with a long-term partner) is a "professional" Girl Scout and is in charge of a large region of the country in some sort of capacity. I was floored, but glad that even though gays are discriminated against by the scouts, that some gay people are willing to fly under the radar in an anti-gay organization to be of help to it, and to others. I wonder if some of these issues are viewed with a nod and shrug in some areas.

[Jennifer3141]

Girl Scouts do not discriminate. I forget that some people don't realize that the Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts are two completely separate organizations.

 

Two totally different groups. Most of my lesbian friends were scouts. :lol:

[Tangerine]

There's no Boy Scouts for us. My DH (raised Mormon) was an archery instructor, and very active in scouts. He likes what they have, but we can't be involved in them in good conscience. While my children make no declaration of faith, per se, we are atheist parents with a commitment to GLBT equality. If it gets to be too much, perhaps the other scouting or similar organizations would be a better fit. I've looked into Spiral Scouts, but they're pretty few and far between.

[KungFuPanda]

Girl Scouts do not discriminate. I forget that some people don't realize that the Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts are two completely separate organizations.

 

:iagree: I don't think people realize that they are similar in name only. People tend to think one is a girl vision and one a boy version. I've had kids on both and they are VERY different.

 

If I were an athiest, I would not put my son in cub scouts. If you're lucky, he'll grow tired of it and fade out naturally. However, the longer he is in and the more he gets attached to the program, the harder it will be when the inevitable showdown occurs. It can't end well for your son.

[catz]

Two totally different groups. Most of my lesbian friends were scouts. :lol:

 

LOL - I know a number of lesbian (and non-Christian for that matter) families involved in girl scouts. But none involved in boy scouts. Actually, our campfire group came about because of a couple lesbian families with boys was looking for an outlet. We go to a UU church that is extremely gay/lesbian family friendly.

[WishboneDawn]

I was an atheist as a kid - as were (are) my father and stepmother. I was also a Brownie and Girl Guide (similar to scouts, but just for girls) and the promises had something about "do my duty to God, the Queen, and my country" in them… I just said them like everyone else. *shrug*

 

The Girl Guides and Girl Scouts are a different organization from the Boy Scouts. Religion doesn't play the same role and there's no requirement to either be of a certain faith or even be a person of faith.

[NotSoObvious]

This is one of the two reasons we do not do scouts. It's not just one patch, it's a large aspect of the organization.

:iagree:I only have girls, but this is also one of two reasons we wouldn't do boy scouts. My girls do Girl Scouts, but I don't find these kinds of issues, at least at this level.

[WishboneDawn]

Also, I think Boy Scouts outside of the US would be a different matter as well. I know they have the same umbrella organization but I'm fairly sure the Canadian Boy Scouts ( Scouts Canada)can not and do not discriminate on the basis of faith or sexuality.

Edited August 30, 2011 by WishboneDawn

[Ipsey]

I had no idea! Yes, I just thought the Girl Scouts were the female incarnation of Boy Scouts. Hmmm, that may make my decision different.

Perhaps I'll just put my little boy in 4-H instead of Boy Scouts.

Food for thought.

 

Thanks all!

[Julie Smith]

Also, I think Boy Scouts outside of the US would be a different matter as well. I know they have the same umbrella organization but I'm fairly sure the Canadian Boy Scouts ( Scouts Canada)can not and do not discriminate on the basis of faith or sexuality.

 

They do on faith, not on sexuality.

I found this on the website: http://www.scouts.ca/dnn/AboutUs/FAQs/tabid/345/Default.aspx

Do you have to believe in God to join Scouts Canada? Is Scouting a Christian organization?

No, but you must have a basic spiritual belief. Spirituality has been one of the three main principles of Scouting around the world since its inception 100 years ago. Scouts Canada welcomes members of many different faiths and denominations; we are proud of our commitment to diversity. That said, you need not belong to an organized religion, but all leaders and youth must take the Scout Promise in good faith, and leaders should be able to include some form of spirituality in their program for the youth.“God” is the word in the Promise used to represent spirituality, and for some may represent an actual deity, but it may also mean to your family an expression of your personal spirituality.

"Duty to God" as defined by the World Organization of the Scouting Movement, means "a person's relationship with the spiritual values of life, the fundamental belief in a force above mankind."

 

Are homosexuals allowed to join Scouts Canada?

Scouts Canada does not discriminate for reasons of gender, culture, religious belief (see above) or sexual orientation.

[KungFuPanda]

If you have a HIGH tolerance for TV-MA shows, you may want to Watch Penn and Teller's show "Bullsh:t!" Season 4 Episode 1 is about the Boy Scout organization. NOT for kids, but informative. Its on Netflix.

[mommymilkies]

atheists are actually not allowed to be scouts. It doesn't matter what religion you are, it can be anything, but you cannot be atheist.

 

This was actually brought before the Supreme Court and it was deemed that since they are a private organization they can do whatever they want with this topic.

 

Dawn

 

:iagree: This is one of the reasons we dropped out.

[NanceXToo]

Darn. My daughter has been in Girl Scouts for like 4 years and is starting back this year as a Cadette.

 

I did think Boy Scouts was the same organization but for boys and was going to start him next year. But after reading this thread, I guess not. We are secular Jews and I'd call myself agnostic and my husband leaning strongly toward atheism so I guess that's out.

 

That Camp Fire USA sounded good but doesn't seem to be local enough to us. Guess we can do 4H but that will mean waiting a couple more years.

 

Oh well!

[kalanamak]

Girl Scouts do not discriminate. I forget that some people don't realize that the Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts are two completely separate organizations.

 

My brother was a girl scout (well, the camp altered his name a little) in 1966. :)

 

Our local pack is not heavy on the religion, but is light on camping, and heavy on movies and "fun". I opted out. I'm hoping Sea Scouts will pan out in later years.

[kalanamak]

"the fundamental belief in a force above mankind."

 

I be-LEEVE in hydrogen bonds!

[Ipsey]

If you have a HIGH tolerance for TV-MA shows, you may want to Watch Penn and Teller's show "Bullsh:t!" Season 4 Episode 1 is about the Boy Scout organization. NOT for kids, but informative. Its on Netflix.

 

Watching right now!

:)

[jenn-]

Thank you everyone for your responses. Religion is just one of those topics that is not brought up at this house. Telling my DH I decided against scouts because of the religious aspect would NOT be pretty. I'm going to have to give it a go for at least a year, but I will make sure DH has to take them to their meetings more often than I do. I know he will get bored of the mundane week to week activities and probably won't complain if we don't sign up again next year.

[thescrappyhomeschooler]

God has never been an integral part of any of our scouting. Our pack was associated with our school. Our troop is also fairly a-religious tho we do say a prayer and a pledge of allegiance and meet at a church.

 

Same here. I am non-religious believer in an unspecified deity, i.e., I believe there is some kind of higher being, I just can't define or describe it. I am also a Cub Scout den leader. We have Jews, Christians and Muslims in our pack and we allow the parents to handle all the "God" stuff. We say the pledge, but we never say a prayer.

[DawnM]

You can try to find a more secular group.

 

There are some troops/packs that are far more religious than others. Each individual pack/troop can make their own bi-laws, so what may be true of one troop may not be true of another.

 

Dawn

 

Thank you everyone for your responses. Religion is just one of those topics that is not brought up at this house. Telling my DH I decided against scouts because of the religious aspect would NOT be pretty. I'm going to have to give it a go for at least a year, but I will make sure DH has to take them to their meetings more often than I do. I know he will get bored of the mundane week to week activities and probably won't complain if we don't sign up again next year.

[KarenNC]

Guess we can do 4H but that will mean waiting a couple more years.

 

You can see if there is a group of Cloverbuds (younger version of 4H, starts at age 5) in your area. http://www.national4-hheadquarters.gov/library/fs-cloverbuds-02-08.pdf

 

Here, 4H is supported by the state and by its bylaws secular, but you may need to do some education of a particular leader. We did, when my daughter was 5. We are Neopagan UU's, and the leader, knowing we were not Christian but honestly just not processing what that might mean, set up a community service project of Christmas caroling to a local nursing home. I was okay with the basic concept (we do celebrate the secular aspects of Christmas), but then she chose very "confessional" carols and I wasn't comfortable. We had a long chat about it and she thanked me for helping her understand more about working with non-Christian families. Overall 4H is a great organization and a great supplement to homeschooling.

 

That group ended up folding for a few years due to the leader's health, and we've been in GS for several years now. My daughter is going to be in a troop where I'm not the leader for the first time this year (Cadette) and it's going to be interesting :).

[LidiyaDawn]

I was an atheist as a kid - as were (are) my father and stepmother. I was also a Brownie and Girl Guide (similar to scouts, but just for girls) and the promises had something about "do my duty to God, the Queen, and my country" in them… I just said them like everyone else. *shrug*

 

The Girl Guides and Girl Scouts are a different organization from the Boy Scouts. Religion doesn't play the same role and there's no requirement to either be of a certain faith or even be a person of faith.

 

Oh I know they're different - but we did have to learn and recite all that stuff. I don't know what they'd have done with a girl who decided to skip the God part….

 

[this was back in the eighties.. who knows, they may not recite them anymore]

[chiguirre]

Hey jenn,

 

Check out the page that lists all the religion badges you can earn. There are some non-theistic religions listed, so if you can affirm a belief in the unity of the universe (like Tao or Brahman) you'll be fine.

[jenn-]

Hey jenn,

 

Check out the page that lists all the religion badges you can earn. There are some non-theistic religions listed, so if you can affirm a belief in the unity of the universe (like Tao or Brahman) you'll be fine.

 

I will look into that. Thanks.

[justasque]

Another approach is to work for change from within.

 

I think boy scouts differs widely both by troop and by area of the country in how much the religious and sexual preference rules play out. We have found very little specific religion in boy scouts, in part because ds's troop, and the camp where he works, include a wide range of kids with differing beliefs. One of my ds's fellow scouts wore eye liner and nail polish to every meeting; 'nuf said on that. ;)

 

If you like and support your local troop but not the national policies, then you can keep your financial and other support at the local level and speak out about the policies when an opportunity arises.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

Also, I think Boy Scouts outside of the US would be a different matter as well. I know they have the same umbrella organization but I'm fairly sure the Canadian Boy Scouts ( Scouts Canada)can not and do not discriminate on the basis of faith or sexuality.

 

Many national scouting associations are part of the world scouting movement, but they are independent and self governing groups that set their own membership requirements. There really isn't an umbrella org that governs them, though many look to Baden Powell as the founder of the movement.

[momma2three]

Another approach is to work for change from within.

 

I think boy scouts differs widely both by troop and by area of the country in how much the religious and sexual preference rules play out. We have found very little specific religion in boy scouts, in part because ds's troop, and the camp where he works, include a wide range of kids with differing beliefs. One of my ds's fellow scouts wore eye liner and nail polish to every meeting; 'nuf said on that. ;)

 

If you like and support your local troop but not the national policies, then you can keep your financial and other support at the local level and speak out about the policies when an opportunity arises.

 

Unfortunately, their national organization is not likely to change their opinions any time soon. They did, after all, take their case to the SCOTUS. And a large portion of the money raised at the local level gets sent to the national level.

 

Just things to keep in mind.

[justasque]

And a large portion of the money raised at the local level gets sent to the national level.

 

 

By default, yes, but you can donate specifically to the troop, or a particular troop project (such as updating/maintaining troop equipment), rather than donating as part of a fundraiser where part will go to national. It's a fine line, but with a scoutmaster who understands that you are trying to making an ethical choice, it can be done, if imperfectly.

[Lady Florida.]

I had no idea! Yes, I just thought the Girl Scouts were the female incarnation of Boy Scouts.

 

Many people don't realize that Camp Fire Girls (now Camp Fire USA) was the original sister organization to Boy Scouts, and was started by some of the same people that started Boy Scouts in the U.S. And yet, Camp Fire doesn't discriminate.

[KungFuPanda]

Watching right now!

:)

 

 

Inappropriate TV watcher!!!!! :lol:

[Lady Florida.]

Unfortunately, their national organization is not likely to change their opinions any time soon. They did, after all, take their case to the SCOTUS. And a large portion of the money raised at the local level gets sent to the national level.

 

Just things to keep in mind.

 

:iagree: Then there's that whole thing about pretending to believe, or at the very least hiding the fact that you don't. I wanted my son to know there is nothing to be ashamed of and plenty to be proud of, regarding our family's atheism. I did not want to teach him that he needed to hide who he is in order to be accepted.

[T'smom]

My brother was a girl scout (well, the camp altered his name a little) in 1966. :)

 

Our local pack is not heavy on the religion, but is light on camping, and heavy on movies and "fun". I opted out. I'm hoping Sea Scouts will pan out in later years.

 

What are Sea Scouts? I'm getting ready to google...but thought I'd ask as well.