Cub Scouts vs. the nonreligious family

[RanchGirl]

I have problems with a organization that is allowed to teach that a person can not grow into "the best kind of citizen" without recognizing a obligation to god. I think that a organzation that believes in such a thing should not be allowed to operate and teach millions of children.

 

Yes I would feel the same with if a organization was trying to teach the opposite.

 

I find this very interesting. You don't feel that just not participating in an organization that has beliefs contrary to yours isn't enough, you actually feel that they 'should not be allowed to operate'? I hope you have a lot of spare time, you will be mighty busy reading through all the plans and belief statements that each organization in the world needs to submit to you for your approval so they can be allowed to exist.

 

Some people use this as a reason for outlawing homeschooling -- we can't approve what they're teaching to the children, what if we don't agree with it? Oh the horrors of someone having an opinion that I haven't approved!

 

Nothing against the OP, who seems to have been genuinely unaware that the Boy Scouts were a Christian organization, not to mention possibly struggling with a dh with a differing viewpoint.

[LucyStoner]

My sil is a lesbian - we're very close, and she's fine with BSA.

 

My brother and his husband are gay (one would hope!) and they do not support BSA. What does that mean? Very little. We could go round and round finding people from any discriminated group to verify our opinions.

 

That said, they even see why we let our particular son do it. But they won't donate their money (nor would we ask them to) and if they had sons instead of two daughters, they would not be joining, period. Our son has a hard time with social stuff due to anxiety, OCD and having been bullied and this is the only social and active group thing he has been really enthused by in 2 years. Here Campfire is not equivalent (and I discussed this with the CEO of Campfire here who I know well- she thought scouts was a better choice for my son because it has bigger groups, more structure and more boys) and ther was not an active enough alternative. All of the scout families we know are of pretty much the same mind as us. It's kind of a progressive don't ask don't tell unspoken truce with the national organization. They don't ask if we agree and we don't tell them we agree. I do think that this will change in time. It is a big organization, there is plenty of room for different congregations to have groups that adhere to their values. There is room to live and let live. If everyone who disagreed with BSA on this issue took their boys out, BSAs finances would be in a world of hurt and that is not a guess, that is fundraising chats I have had with their paid staff.

Edited September 1, 2011 by kijipt

[justasque]

Nothing against the OP, who seems to have been genuinely unaware that the Boy Scouts were a Christian organization, not to mention possibly struggling with a dh with a differing viewpoint.

 

Are they a Christian organization? I'm not sure I would describe it as quite that way. They are OK with members of any faith, just not OK with members of no faith. I assume they reflect the demographics of the country in that most are Christian, but I don't think the organization itself is formally Christian?

[bella_gitana]

They don't accept Wiccans, and they stopped recognizing UUs.

 

 

I believe you can define yourself as any religion and be part of scouts, at least that is what I have read. I am not positive it has to be an organized religion, but it does have to define a "godhead" of some sort from my understanding.

 

Dawn

[DawnM]

Did you get insurance for that taxi and leave your 18 kids at home while you earned that income? Don't forget to claim it all on your taxes.

 

:lol:

 

Sorry, couldn't resist.

 

Dawn

 

Wow! Just a totally shallow thing to say, but I have NEVER posted a thread that has made it to 30 pages. Normally I seem to be a thread killer, so this was a nice surprise to come home to after doing the "Mom's taxi service" thing.

[chiguirre]

Nothing against the OP, who seems to have been genuinely unaware that the Boy Scouts were a Christian organization, not to mention possibly struggling with a dh with a differing viewpoint.

 

Whoa, Nelly! BSA is NOT a Christian organization. You can earn a religious emblem for a wide variety of faiths, including Buddhism which is not necessarily theistic. So there's quite a bit of latitude about the meaning of God in the oath. It could mean one God, many gods or the interconnectedness of the universe. Take your pick.

 

Those religious emblems are not written by BSA, they're written by the governing bodies of the faiths they teach. There are other requirements, like that faith organization chartering a certain number of scout units, so not every faith is represented. That doesn't mean scouts of that faith can't join BSA, they just can't earn a religion knot for their faith (and honestly, religion knots are not that popular even among scouts whose faiths are represented).

[KarenNC]

THere are male leaders. Here's a blog about a couple: http://girlscoutdads.com/

 

FWIW, when I was a brownie and junior scout, my dad was the first aider for our troop. He went on encampments with us (and so did my brother, as a tag-a-long) and I'm guessing Dad and Brother slept in a tent by themselves. It appears from that blog that men can no longer be first aiders, which I can understand in the light of today's very litigious society, but it makes me a bit sad for all those dads of girls who want to be involved in scouting with their daughters - their opportunities within Girl Scouting are shrinking.

 

Men can be leaders, but at least one leader has to be female and men are not allowed to sleep in the same area with girls on overnights, etc. I've seen at least one male leader at our service unit meeting and I know of one dad in another service unit who is a leader for both Girl Scouts and Boy Scouts (that must get confusing). They can still be first-aiders, or at least I can say that the first-aider for my daughter's Girl Scout day camp this past summer was a man, so I assume that's still allowed in our council.

[jenn-]

Did you get insurance for that taxi and leave your 18 kids at home while you earned that income? Don't forget to claim it all on your taxes.

 

:lol:

 

Sorry, couldn't resist.

 

Dawn

 

Don't I wish there was an income part of the Mom's Taxi Service. Yesterday's job required hauling 3 out of 4 kids (the forth was on vacation with my MIL) to speech for the youngest, and gymnastics for all of them. Today requires hauling all 4 out to piano practice for the oldest and later I get to subject my boys to the propaganda used to by the BSA to sell :lurk5:.

[lionfamily1999]

I find this very interesting. You don't feel that just not participating in an organization that has beliefs contrary to yours isn't enough, you actually feel that they 'should not be allowed to operate'? I hope you have a lot of spare time, you will be mighty busy reading through all the plans and belief statements that each organization in the world needs to submit to you for your approval so they can be allowed to exist.

 

Some people use this as a reason for outlawing homeschooling -- we can't approve what they're teaching to the children, what if we don't agree with it? Oh the horrors of someone having an opinion that I haven't approved!

 

Nothing against the OP, who seems to have been genuinely unaware that the Boy Scouts were a Christian organization, not to mention possibly struggling with a dh with a differing viewpoint.

It's the same with SOFs. The most "tolerant" do not feel the need to extend tolerance to those that disagree with them.

 

Fwiw, we'll be starting scouts all over again next year :D Luke cannot wait.

Give me stats that most religious folks, not culturally religious, condone homosexuality. Find me stats that say members already involved in the BSA are unhappy with this ruling? The demise of BSA won't be the homosexuality issue, it will be the changes made from coercion from people that are pro-homosexual wanting to destroy it.

:iagree:

[LidiyaDawn]

They don't accept Wiccans, and they stopped recognizing UUs.

 

So the requirement isn't just "faith" … it's whatever specific faiths the organization decides are okay.

 

What's the exact wording of the policy, I wonder?

[Jenny in Florida]

Those religious emblems are not written by BSA, they're written by the governing bodies of the faiths they teach.

 

Yes, but the BSA has the right to refuse to approve the curricula written for the various faiths.

 

For example, there are no emblem materials approved by the governing body of the Unitarian Universalist Association, because the BSA didn't like what the UUA submitted. After several revisions offered by the UUA that the BSA still refused to approve, the UUA walked away from negotiations.

 

For several years, UU scouts who wished to do so used the UUA materials and had their emblems awarded by their individual congregations, but the BSA did not approve them.

 

Eventually, a group of UUs not representing the UUA took it upon themselves to form an organization and work with the BSA to get an emblem approved. They did so, but the UUA says they do not represent the denomination.

 

So, sure, leaders of various faiths are free to write their own curricula for BSA emblems, but the BSA still gets to approve (or not) the contents.

 

It was that controversy, along with the Supreme Court fight about LGBT scouts and leaders, that caused many UUs to turn away from Boy Scouts. In fact, my own home church sponsored a troop until that point, but they parted ways during that controversy.

[Tangerine]

Whoa, Nelly! BSA is NOT a Christian organization. You can earn a religious emblem for a wide variety of faiths, including Buddhism which is not necessarily theistic. So there's quite a bit of latitude about the meaning of God in the oath. It could mean one God, many gods or the interconnectedness of the universe. Take your pick.

 

Those religious emblems are not written by BSA, they're written by the governing bodies of the faiths they teach. There are other requirements, like that faith organization chartering a certain number of scout units, so not every faith is represented. That doesn't mean scouts of that faith can't join BSA, they just can't earn a religion knot for their faith (and honestly, religion knots are not that popular even among scouts whose faiths are represented).

 

I'm curious how this meshes with the post (a bajillion pages ago) talking about praying during meetings. If there is a troop with a diverse religious make-up, how does the praying go down?

[LidiyaDawn]

BSA Legal

 

Boy Scouts of America believes that no member can grow into the best kind of citizen without recognizing an obligation to God.

 

Yuck. They're actually stating that kids can't grow up to be "the best" kind of people unless they believe in [Abrahamic?] God. What a bunch of monkey chuck.

 

the Boy Scouts of America will not employ atheists, agnostics, known or avowed homosexuals, or others as professional Scouters or in other capacities in which such employment would tend to interfere with the mission of reinforcing the values of the Scout Oath and the Scout Law in young people.

 

They made sure to keep a loophole there eh?

 

The Boy Scouts of America, therefore, recognizes the religious element in the training of the member, but it is absolutely nonsectarian in its attitude toward that religious training.

 

Doesn't that mean they can't be picking and choosing?

[lionfamily1999]

http://usscouts.org/advance/boyscout/religious.asp

[DawnM]

Popcorn sales is my nemesis. I HATE it. And I have 3 boys, so we have to sell even more.

 

Dawn

 

Don't I wish there was an income part of the Mom's Taxi Service. Yesterday's job required hauling 3 out of 4 kids (the forth was on vacation with my MIL) to speech for the youngest, and gymnastics for all of them. Today requires hauling all 4 out to piano practice for the oldest and later I get to subject my boys to the propaganda used to by the BSA to sell :lurk5:.

[Jenny in Florida]

It's the same with SOFs. The most "tolerant" do not feel the need to extend tolerance to those that disagree with them.

 

Says who?

 

I've said repeatedly in this thread and in many regarding Statements of Faith for homeschool groups that I absolutely support the right of those organizations to define their own rules. Since I so value my own right to choose and participate in organizations that align with my family's values, I recognize my obligation to defend the rights of others to do the same, even when I think their "standards" are ridiculous and/or bigoted.

 

However, I also believe that those of us who disagree with said organizations have the right (and responsibility) to speak our minds when the subject is aired.

 

Interesting story: My church was the site of a protest a few weeks ago. It happened to be on a day when my family was out of town. However, as I understand it, a fundamentalist Christian group that was in town for a conference decided to picket in front of our santuary. They carried signs and yelled at people as folks tried to make it to religious education classes and the service.

 

They also yelled at a parent and child who arrived late that the child was being spiritually endangered by the false teachings of our church.

 

The police were called and on hand to make sure nothing awful happened. Eventually, some of the protesters put down their signs and were invited to come inside. I gather they were not a terribly receptive audience, but the point is that we didn't run them off or have them arrested or try to shout them down. Instead, we invited them in to share the day with us.

 

Of course, one of those folks later wrote a lovely blog post suggesting that our church is held together by a "common hate for God" and assuring us that "tears flowed over" our "lost souls." Sigh.

[LidiyaDawn]

So are they welcoming to ALL faiths or not? It doesn't sound like they are.. (someone said they "don't accept" Wiccans, for example)

 

Yet they teach Conducting an Interfaith Service

 

…. interfaith - but only the ones they want?

 

Those court cases were atheists and agnostics, right? I wonder what would happen if someone who was very much "of faith" - but a faith that had been "not allowed" were to challenge it.

[lionfamily1999]

I'm curious how this meshes with the post (a bajillion pages ago) talking about praying during meetings. If there is a troop with a diverse religious make-up, how does the praying go down?

As a Christian, I don't pray with the larger BS prayers. We stand quietly, but we don't take part. The prayers are so general as to be, for us, a little creepy... We lift our voices to the great creator, the higher power which connects us all... However, in the smaller groups, where most of the kids worship the same God, the prayers are more specific.

 

 

 

====================

The biggest complaint I've read about SOFs is how they are not open and complainer (claiming to have the most open mind of all) can't stand them and thinks they should be outlawed, or fought into non-existence. That's not so tolerant ;) I'm glad your church allowed the picketers to finish their demonstration, good for you :D However, the folks who claim to be the most tolerant would have been happy to cry out for how they should have been arrested. That's my point.

 

Sort of like BSA, who doesn't claim to be tolerant or fair, being attacked for not being tolerant or fair by people that claim to be tolerant. Well, sure you can complain all you want, but that's not tolerating, that's complaining, that's meddling and that's saying that this group is wrong and must be changed. So, when the other poster said that BSA would be destroyed by people that want to force them to change their policies, I agreed.

[SailorMom]

So are they welcoming to ALL faiths or not? It doesn't sound like they are.. (someone said they "don't accept" Wiccans, for example)

 

Yet they teach Conducting an Interfaith Service

 

…. interfaith - but only the ones they want?

 

Those court cases were atheists and agnostics, right? I wonder what would happen if someone who was very much "of faith" - but a faith that had been "not allowed" were to challenge it.

 

 

They welcome all faiths. You can worship a chair and you'll still be able to participate. Nature worship is completely accepted.

[TxMama]

So are they welcoming to ALL faiths or not? It doesn't sound like they are.. (someone said they "don't accept" Wiccans, for example)

 

Yet they teach Conducting an Interfaith Service

 

…. interfaith - but only the ones they want?

 

Those court cases were atheists and agnostics, right? I wonder what would happen if someone who was very much "of faith" - but a faith that had been "not allowed" were to challenge it.

 

A boy does not have to earn a Religious emblem of their faith to progress through scouting. This is an elective type of requirement. I believe the "don't accept" comment was related to the Religious emblem. The Religious emblem is something earned through a religious organization that can be worn on the scout uniform. My eldest son is an Eagle Scout and never earned a religious emblem of any kind during his scouting career. My younger son is a Webelos and earned one but doesn't wear it on his uniform.

 

http://usscouts.org/advance/cubscout/intro.asp will give you specific information regarding the "Duty to God" or reverant requirement during the various stages of scouting. Each rank has it's own requirement. Any person " of faith" can meet these requirements in one manner or another.

 

HTH

[WishboneDawn]

So are they welcoming to ALL faiths or not? It doesn't sound like they are.. (someone said they "don't accept" Wiccans, for example)

 

Yet they teach Conducting an Interfaith Service

 

…. interfaith - but only the ones they want?

 

Those court cases were atheists and agnostics, right? I wonder what would happen if someone who was very much "of faith" - but a faith that had been "not allowed" were to challenge it.

 

I'm guessing the common thread is the Creator, the belief in God. They aren't in fact, open to all faiths rather just those who share a belief in a higher power. As I understand it that's not required to be either UU or Wiccan.

[SailorMom]

A boy does not have to earn a Religious emblem of their faith to progress through scouting. This is an elective type of requirement. I believe the "don't accept" comment was related to the Religious emblem. The Religious emblem is something earned through a religious organization that can be worn on the scout uniform. My eldest son is an Eagle Scout and never earned a religious emblem of any kind during his scouting career. My younger son is a Webelos and earned one but doesn't wear it on his uniform.

 

http://usscouts.org/advance/cubscout/intro.asp will give you specific information regarding the "Duty to God" or reverant requirement during the various stages of scouting. Each rank has it's own requirement. Any person " of faith" can meet these requirements in one manner or another.

 

HTH

 

Oh! I gotch, sorry :)

Just as an aside, the religious organizations develop their own curriculum, which are then approved by BSA as meeting what they see as minimum requirements. So - if, say, deism (in my case) is not offerred, it is because no deist organization has developed a curriculum yet. It isn't about which ones BSA chose to include.

[MamaBearMO]

So the requirement isn't just "faith" … it's whatever specific faiths the organization decides are okay.

 

What's the exact wording of the policy, I wonder?

 

 

The following faiths or denominations have religious awards for Tiger Cubs, Cub Scouts, and/or Webelos Scouts:

 

* African Methodist Episcopal Church

* African Methodist Episcopal Zion Church

* Anglican Catholic Church

* Armenian Church of America (Eastern Diocese)

* Baha'i

* Baptist

* Buddhist

* Christian Church (Disciples of Christ)

* Christian Methodist Episcopal Church

* Church of Christ, Scientist (Christian Scientist)

* Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)

* Churches of Christ

* Community of Christ

* Eastern Catholic

* Eastern Orthodox

* Episcopal

* General Church of the New Jerusalem (The New Church)

* Hindu

* Islamic

* Jewish

* Lutheran

* Meher Baba

* National Association of Anglican and Traditional Catholic Scouters

* Polish National Catholic

* Presbyterian Church in America

* Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.)

* Protestant and Independent Christian Churches -- (Available to any Christian denomination)

* Religious Society of Friends (Quakers)

* Roman Catholic

* The Salvation Army

* Unitarian-Universalist Scouters Association

* United Church of Christ

* United Methodist

* United Pentecostal Church International

* Unity Churches

[ciyates]

I, personally, have only seen homosexuality brought up once in the troops we have been involved with. In our area we have several small troops so often troops get together for campouts. One troop had 2 young men that were openly gay and in a relationship with one another. They became intimate at a campout. They were removed from the troop. It wasn't our troop so I am not sure how it was handled exactly. Our troop was camping with them and were very uncomfortable. It was addressed at our troop behavior that any intimate behavior is unacceptable. That is the one and only time it has ever been an issue.

 

Our troop does hold it its volunteers to the same standard as the boys. If a man was having an affair he would be asked to step down from his leadership position. It has happened (not in our troop but our area).

[TxMama]

Oh! I gotch, sorry :)

Just as an aside, the religious organizations develop their own curriculum, which are then approved by BSA as meeting what they see as minimum requirements. So - if, say, deism (in my case) is not offerred, it is because no deist organization has developed a curriculum yet. It isn't about which ones BSA chose to include.

 

Yes. If a deist organization created a youth religious emblem then they could offer it.

 

BSA does not create or administer the religious emblem program of any faith.

 

I don't know of the process to decide which religious emblems get recongnized by BSA (which just means that it can be worn on the uniform). I am not aware of any religious emblems that are not currently recognized by BSA. The current list is varied enough that it is obvious not just Christian faiths that are recognized.

 

Also, a boy can meet this requirement through his home and with his parents. Honestly, after having gone through a religious emblem program with my youngest son, we will be meeting future requirements at home.

 

HTH

[JadeOrchidSong]

I, personally, have only seen homosexuality brought up once in the troops we have been involved with. In our area we have several small troops so often troops get together for campouts. One troop had 2 young men that were openly gay and in a relationship with one another. They became intimate at a campout. They were removed from the troop. It wasn't our troop so I am not sure how it was handled exactly. Our troop was camping with them and were very uncomfortable. It was addressed at our troop behavior that any intimate behavior is unacceptable. That is the one and only time it has ever been an issue.

 

Our troop does hold it its volunteers to the same standard as the boys. If a man was having an affair he would be asked to step down from his leadership position. It has happened (not in our troop but our area).

 

I would NOT want my boys near any scouts (boys) that are openly intimate as a couple during a scout event whether they are gay or heterosexual. Campouts are not time for romance. It detracts from the purpose of building community and outdoor skills for the boys.

Edited September 1, 2011 by aomom

[mom2scouts]

People were also getting a bit uppity about the government subsidy of a group that maintained discriminatory policies. Thankfully, things are changing. Philadelphia told them to admit gays, or pay fair market rent on their headquarters (rather than the $1 they had been paying).

 

You neglected to mention that the Boy Scouts BUILT that headquarters building and then donated it to the city with the stipulation that they would get $1 rent in perpetuity.

[mom2scouts]

My husband was in Scouts for years, as an atheist, and never had the impression that it was a religious institution. That's fine that there are badges for faith. Just like there are badges for lots of things. Kids aren't required to earn them all, are they?

 

If my atheist kid didn't want to earn a religion badge, that would be no skin off my nose. How many religion badges are there, by the way?

 

 

EVERY Cub Scout rank has a faith based requirement. We allow the parents to sign off when they feel their child has completed the requirements. There are RANK requirements and not just "badges".

[NavyWifeandMommy]

EVERY Cub Scout rank has a faith based requirement. We allow the parents to sign off when they feel their child has completed the requirements. There are RANK requirements and not just "badges".

 

 

My child's Den doesn't enforce anything religous. We are the only Christian family in my son's den. Everyone does seem to pray. Some to one God and some to many Gods. Somewhere is says even it the person prays to the Tree outside, it is a form of belief.

[Jenny in Florida]

Oh! I gotch, sorry :)

Just as an aside, the religious organizations develop their own curriculum, which are then approved by BSA as meeting what they see as minimum requirements. So - if, say, deism (in my case) is not offerred, it is because no deist organization has developed a curriculum yet. It isn't about which ones BSA chose to include.

 

Again, this isn't strictly true. Yes, the individual faiths develop the curricula, but the BSA has to decide whether to approve them. They never did approve the one designed by the Unitarian Universalist Association. So, instead, a private group calling itself the Unitarian Universalist Scouting Association -- which the UUA has made very clear is neither associated with nor sanctioned by them -- stepped in and made the changes demanded by the BSA to get a curriculum approved.

[Jenny in Florida]

* Unitarian-Universalist Scouters Association

 

Right. See how it doesn't say "The Unitarian Universalist Association?" That's because the BSA refused to approve the official curriculum designed by the UUA. What you have instead is a curriculum made up by a group of private people who don't actually represent our denomination.

[Tangerine]

You neglected to mention that the Boy Scouts BUILT that headquarters building and then donated it to the city with the stipulation that they would get $1 rent in perpetuity.

 

Have you read the whole thread?

[ThatCyndiGirl]

Until today I had no idea that Salvation Army was a church. Who knew that when I was bargain hunting....I was worshipping?! :tongue_smilie:

[barbarajon]

I don’t get it why people tend to intrude in other person’s personal interest and beliefs. If a person is a believer or non believer of God, it doesn’t mean that the person’s ideology would hamper or attack your belief. I hate when people interfere into something which should be NOYB (none of your business). I didn’t know that about scouts. Thanks for sharing with us.

[Beauty From Ashes]

I have no problem with Scouts Canada as long as they receive no special treatment from the government.

 

I do have a problem with BSA since it states:

The Boy Scouts of America maintains that no member can grow into the best kind of citizen without recognising an obligation to God.

 

I have problems with a organization that is allowed to teach that a person can not grow into "the best kind of citizen" without recognizing a obligation to god. I think that a organzation that believes in such a thing should not be allowed to operate and teach millions of children.

 

Yes I would feel the same with if a organization was trying to teach the opposite.

 

So almost all churches and many Christian private schools would be closed? :001_smile: