How did YOU get obedience?

[toawh]

I really liked Dr. Kevin Leman's book Have a New Kid by Friday. It really worked in my case. My kids obey me without my having to spank or lose my temper. I seriously love that book. It's hard work though at first. The idea is you train the parents not the kids... Read it and see what you think.

[Mommyfaithe]

:iagree:

 

This families I know that were first time obedience parents have robot kids that literally RAN away from their house as soon as they were 18.

 

The ones I know were not robots. They were pissed off teens who snuck around and did what they felt like ...only on the q-t. They were liars and as soon as they had a chance...off they went.

 

These were the kids cutting themselves, on drugs, having multiple sexual partners...but seemingly first time obedient. Those parents were the ones who gave ME a hard time for not spanking...not forcing my girls to wear skirts, or keeping them from make up once they were 16.

 

I did not allow my kids to disobey....I worked with them...and taught them how to do what I wanted done.

 

Faithe

[Guest submarines]

I have an idea to turn off the debate response:

 

Yes, I achieved obedience. I did it by ______________________________________________.

 

:lol:

 

ETA: I see a lot more posts since I've posted this...going back and reading now...

 

Yes, I achieved obedience. I did it by never expecting it, and never wanting it. I don't want obedient children. I want thinking children, questioning children, children who will challenge blind authority and exercise their own decision making powers. Obedient children grow up to be either rebellious teens / adults, or obedient adults. Neither is my goal, as neither characterises happy, productive, creative, members of society.

 

For us, obedience is a by product of allowing "disobedience." My kids do what I tell them, not because they have to, and not because I 'told them so', but because they trust me.

 

It is very convenient when children do what is asked with great attitude, on the first request. However I'm happy when my children do what I ask them most of the time, mostly with a great attitude, and without power struggles. I'd rather have this, than blind obedience.

[Sputterduck]

I think the Pearls coined this term, and I don't like the Pearls and certainly don't use their methods, but the key to my success so far has been tying heart strings.

 

With well-tied heart strings it bothers my son to do wrong things and it bothers him to upset me. With that accomplished it really takes nearly nothing to keep him in line.

[regentrude]

Yes, I achieved obedience. I did it by never expecting it, and never wanting it. I don't want obedient children. I want thinking children, questioning children, children who will challenge blind authority and exercise their own decision making powers.

...

However I'm happy when my children do what I ask them most of the time, mostly with a great attitude, and without power struggles. I'd rather have this, than blind obedience.

 

 

:iagree:

You put it very nicely.

Humans can, and should, think, question, and exercise judgement.

Dogs are not capable of that.

My kids are human.

[simka2]

I apologize for focusing on 100% obedience....of course I know this is real life. And of course I know children aren't dogs. But in another way, they are. They are social animals, able to learn a structure of conduct and right behavior.

 

 

:crying:

[Pamela H in Texas]

Elena, I liked parts of Raising Godly Tomatoes. I love the relationship part. I love the reasonable discipline parts (like setting them up for success, letting the "leash" out slowly, helping them, etc). I simply do not believe spanking (or really any punishment) is required to get it done.

 

Again, I really think it is simply making it clear that you say what you mean and mean what you say AND then you follow through.

 

The thing about dogs. Dogs are never going to grow up and be expected to think for themselves. They aren't meant to be self-disciplined. They aren't meant to grow up and move on. Children are. If you control children to a great degree without teaching them to learn to think things through and learn self-control, your kids will have to learn those things later. Look how many young people go NUTS between ages 16 and 24!?!?!

 

Anyway, just a few things to consider.

 

Oh, one more thing? If you're going to post on highly traffic'd topics, you might want to change your post count per page in threads. Mine is set on 30 so THIS post is at the bottom of the 2nd page :)

Edited August 27, 2011 by 2J5M9K

[stripe]

I'm just left feeling that discipline and obedience are perhaps lost arts, very much the way that dog training is. I want to re-find those arts.

 

I don't want my kids to just obey me. I don't believe I am of a different species than they are. I believe I know more than they do because I am older, and my concern as their mother helps me guide them to become good people. I don't think I will always know more than they will about what the right thing to do is. I don't think dogs make many moral decisions, whereas I expect my children to wrestle with serious issues, not just learn not to poop on the floor.

 

I remember when I was a child. I appreciated being treated as a human.

 

I know people who were expected to obey their parents when they asked for immoral things. Perhaps a dog would unquestioningly, say, attack an innocent person on their owner's command, but I applaud those of any age who stand up for injustice, even when initiated by a parent or elder. Many injustices have been perpetrated by those who know the child will obey a parent or elder.

 

My children are human beings, and, as such, I believe were given brains and can learn. Even learn more than I can teach them! And that they will someday be self-reliant, and can be expected to do the right thing even without an old bone to chew on.

 

But then I never thought about putting my kids to sleep after 10 years, or hoping my dogs would take care of me in my old age.

[astrid]

Yes, I achieved obedience. I did it by never expecting it, and never wanting it. I don't want obedient children. I want thinking children, questioning children, children who will challenge blind authority and exercise their own decision making powers. Obedient children grow up to be either rebellious teens / adults, or obedient adults. Neither is my goal, as neither characterises happy, productive, creative, members of society.

 

For us, obedience is a by product of allowing "disobedience." My kids do what I tell them, not because they have to, and not because I 'told them so', but because they trust me.

 

It is very convenient when children do what is asked with great attitude, on the first request. However I'm happy when my children do what I ask them most of the time, mostly with a great attitude, and without power struggles. I'd rather have this, than blind obedience.

 

YES. THIS. EXACTLY.

Well said.

 

astrid

[stripe]

And for that matter, I have had times when my children have been right and I have been wrong, both factually and morally.

[justamouse]

 

I apologize for focusing on 100% obedience....of course I know this is real life. And of course I know children aren't dogs. But in another way, they are. They are social animals, able to learn a structure of conduct and right behavior.

 

After reading Godly Tomatoes, I started spanking for ALL disobedience. I have to say it made a huge positive improvement in our house. I went from losing my temper frequently to not losing my temper at all, which made for a happier home. If there's one thing my dog training has taught me, its how to mete out discipline fairly and without emotion. The major flaw that I saw is that it worked in the home, but not out of the home because I'm not going to spank in the middle of the grocery store. Kids, like dogs, realize that type of thing very quickly.

 

But now of course I've slipped back....my kids are not THAT bad...I mean I'm not someone you'd shake your head at in the grocery store:D I would not have what I call major discipline problems. But it does bother me. Its very hard to throw yourself into something without being confident of the results, or confident that you're doing the right thing. So that is where this question is coming from. I DO want obedience...but I don't know exactly HOW to get it.

 

Alright, so now since I have broken all of my own rules, this thread is officially a free for all.....:lol:

 

Wow.

 

I think we are on different planets (I wouldn't compare my kids to an animal, they are not anything like animals. You CAN get blind obedience out of a dog-which is why CHILDREN are not dogs) and, frankly, I don't think you want to do differently, you just wanted to hear that if you keep spanking, with enough persistence, it will work.

 

Sorry, I can't give you that answer. And I won't.

 

I could be wrong-you could truly be searching, but I'll tell you now, the first step will be relating to your kids from a different place-one that doesn't compare them to animals.

Edited August 27, 2011 by justamouse

[MamaJo]

I generally assign work for a bad attitude or a lack of obedience though I have never really focused on obedience too much and it has never been much of an issue.

[regentrude]

And for that matter, I have had times when my children have been right and I have been wrong, both factually and morally.

 

:iagree:

 

Only a person who considers herself infallible can find it reasonable to demand blind obedience.

[Parrothead]

Thanks for lots of good responses! Don't have time to respond to more right now, but thought I'd give a quick answer even though I am disobeying my own rule :)

We all do. ;)

 

I will try to give you my quick psych profile:

I was raised in a liberal, permissive household. We were polite, well behaved children. We had an affectionate and loving relationship. I never backtalked or was sassy, but on a deeper level, obedience and respect was missing.

Are you certain? Do you have an ideal of what obedience and respect look like in your head and are simply not seeing your ideal?

 

 

Fast forward to my adult, pre-children years. I was a dog trainer. I can get complete, reliable off-leash obedience from any dog, under any situation (again, short of the jumping off the bridge command.) If you don't believe me it is because permissive, relationship building training which focuses on what the dog is feeling has permeated the landscaping and what I would call 'real' dog training has been erased from our collective consciousness.

Please come see what you can do with my Basset hound that refuses to "come."

 

Fast forward to post-kids years. Heeeeeelp!!!!! :D My kids are wild animals. They are friendly, social and loving, but spirited and wild. They run and run and run. I start reading books about ADHD even though I believe 100% that it doesn't exist. :D Slowly, I turn into a nagging, frustrated parent "how many times do I have to tell you...."

Please look at your thinking again. Yes, ADHD does exist. Once you meet a child that suffers from ADHD you will never question that it exists. Now, it is over-diagnosed? Sure, and probably a lot. Are there people who would rather not actively parent and just keep feeding their kid pills? Sure. Sadly it happens all the time.

 

A dog must listen within a second of being given a command. I never thought that either could or should apply to kids. But deep down I always wanted it to. I wanted it to for two reasons: 1) I believe whole-heartedly that obedience is good for the soul. I understand that others do not. 2) When I am not obeyed I feel frustrated and disrespected. Perhaps some would just say I need therapy.

You just might need therapy. I wonder how much you are transferring feelings about dog training to your kids.

 

Yes, there is a Commandment that must be obeyed. Yup, according to this Commandment a child obeying a parent is good for the sou. But a child also has free will. And without going into a deep theological discussion, you'll have to, maybe, change your thinking a bit.

 

Also, yes, it is frustrating to have to repeat a request or order more than once. But children truly need to be trained over and over and over again.

 

Do you want your children to fear you or respect you? That is ultimately what you have to ask yourself. Your decision will ultimately decide your future parenting style.

 

 

So, over the last year, I've had what I would call an awakening. I read a book called "Getting your child to do what you want them to do" or something like that. I don't think it advocated spanking, but it did advocate obedience. (Actually, its probably time for me to go back and re-read that.) That is when I began to realize that maybe I can merge my dog and child worlds. Then I read Raising Godly Tomatoes, and it was an epiphany that anyone would even THINK of disciplining a child who didn't listen on the first time. Up until then, I was more of a 1-2-3 parent. Of course I know from dog training that that means 'disobeying me twice is OK' but I just didn't know a different way.

Again, you are raising children, not training dogs. Stop comparing your children to dogs.

 

 

I'm just left feeling that discipline and obedience are perhaps lost arts, very much the way that dog training is. I want to re-find those arts. I definitely wasn't taught it growing up. I envy those who grew up in households where they were obedient and thus know instinctively how to pass that on.

 

I apologize for focusing on 100% obedience....of course I know this is real life. And of course I know children aren't dogs. But in another way, they are. They are social animals, able to learn a structure of conduct and right behavior.

 

After reading Godly Tomatoes, I started spanking for ALL disobedience. I have to say it made a huge positive improvement in our house. I went from losing my temper frequently to not losing my temper at all, which made for a happier home. If there's one thing my dog training has taught me, its how to mete out discipline fairly and without emotion. The major flaw that I saw is that it worked in the home, but not out of the home because I'm not going to spank in the middle of the grocery store. Kids, like dogs, realize that type of thing very quickly.

 

But now of course I've slipped back....my kids are not THAT bad...I mean I'm not someone you'd shake your head at in the grocery store:D I would not have what I call major discipline problems. But it does bother me. Its very hard to throw yourself into something without being confident of the results, or confident that you're doing the right thing. So that is where this question is coming from. I DO want obedience...but I don't know exactly HOW to get it.

 

Alright, so now since I have broken all of my own rules, this thread is officially a free for all.....:lol:

Figure out what kind of mom you want to be. What do you want your kids to get out of their childhood? Find out what motivates your kids work with that as much as possible.

[ktgrok]

Also, as an actual technique, "outlasting" is probably the best. The idea is that there is NO OTHER OPTION than what I said. Life ends until you do what I say, and you will do what I say. Things like punishment give the child an option..it is "do this or that happens". Outlasting takes away the choice. It is just "do this."

[lovelaughs_times_three]

Thanks for lots of good responses! Don't have time to respond to more right now, but thought I'd give a quick answer even though I am disobeying my own rule :)

 

I will try to give you my quick psych profile:

I was raised in a liberal, permissive household. We were polite, well behaved children. We had an affectionate and loving relationship. I never backtalked or was sassy, but on a deeper level, obedience and respect was missing.

 

Fast forward to my adult, pre-children years. I was a dog trainer. I can get complete, reliable off-leash obedience from any dog, under any situation (again, short of the jumping off the bridge command.) If you don't believe me it is because permissive, relationship building training which focuses on what the dog is feeling has permeated the landscaping and what I would call 'real' dog training has been erased from our collective consciousness.

 

Fast forward to post-kids years. Heeeeeelp!!!!! :D My kids are wild animals. They are friendly, social and loving, but spirited and wild. They run and run and run. I start reading books about ADHD even though I believe 100% that it doesn't exist. :D Slowly, I turn into a nagging, frustrated parent "how many times do I have to tell you...."

 

A dog must listen within a second of being given a command. I never thought that either could or should apply to kids. But deep down I always wanted it to. I wanted it to for two reasons: 1) I believe whole-heartedly that obedience is good for the soul. I understand that others do not. 2) When I am not obeyed I feel frustrated and disrespected. Perhaps some would just say I need therapy.

 

So, over the last year, I've had what I would call an awakening. I read a book called "Getting your child to do what you want them to do" or something like that. I don't think it advocated spanking, but it did advocate obedience. (Actually, its probably time for me to go back and re-read that.) That is when I began to realize that maybe I can merge my dog and child worlds. Then I read Raising Godly Tomatoes, and it was an epiphany that anyone would even THINK of disciplining a child who didn't listen on the first time. Up until then, I was more of a 1-2-3 parent. Of course I know from dog training that that means 'disobeying me twice is OK' but I just didn't know a different way.

 

I'm just left feeling that discipline and obedience are perhaps lost arts, very much the way that dog training is. I want to re-find those arts. I definitely wasn't taught it growing up. I envy those who grew up in households where they were obedient and thus know instinctively how to pass that on.

 

I apologize for focusing on 100% obedience....of course I know this is real life. And of course I know children aren't dogs. But in another way, they are. They are social animals, able to learn a structure of conduct and right behavior.

 

After reading Godly Tomatoes, I started spanking for ALL disobedience. I have to say it made a huge positive improvement in our house. I went from losing my temper frequently to not losing my temper at all, which made for a happier home. If there's one thing my dog training has taught me, its how to mete out discipline fairly and without emotion. The major flaw that I saw is that it worked in the home, but not out of the home because I'm not going to spank in the middle of the grocery store. Kids, like dogs, realize that type of thing very quickly.

 

But now of course I've slipped back....my kids are not THAT bad...I mean I'm not someone you'd shake your head at in the grocery store:D I would not have what I call major discipline problems. But it does bother me. Its very hard to throw yourself into something without being confident of the results, or confident that you're doing the right thing. So that is where this question is coming from. I DO want obedience...but I don't know exactly HOW to get it.

 

Alright, so now since I have broken all of my own rules, this thread is officially a free for all.....:lol:

 

I was typing my other response while you were typing this one, so I didn't see this before I posted.

 

Hmmmm.... I have thoughts to add, but I wanted to make one observation first. From what I've heard/read (and I am by NO MEANS an expert in training dogs), doesn't positive reinforcement work better even in training animals than negative reinforcement? I hate to compare raising kids to raising dogs....feels wrong on some level....but since this is what you are comparing.....isn't this true? I've seen many animal trainers giving their dogs/birds/animals a treat to reward their positive behavior. They, in fact, train them by giving them a treat when they get anywhere near the desired goal at first. Then, the next time, they wait to give the treat until the animal gets even closer to the goal...etc.

 

This is actually part of what I do with my kids. I rely more on my positive reinforcement than my negative. I reward my kids with lots of praise for their good behavior. I work hard to make sure I "catch them" doing good.

 

I am sure I have more thoughts, but wanted to add this one first....

[Joanne]

After reading Godly Tomatoes, I started spanking for ALL disobedience. I have to say it made a huge positive improvement in our house. I went from losing my temper frequently to not losing my temper at all, which made for a happier home. If there's one thing my dog training has taught me, its how to mete out discipline fairly and without emotion. The major flaw that I saw is that it worked in the home, but not out of the home because I'm not going to spank in the middle of the grocery store. Kids, like dogs, realize that type of thing very quickly.

 

:

 

I find *frequent* spanking to be abusive. I am not a person who believes all spanking is abusive.

 

But spanking for every issue is restricted, myopic parenting.

Edited August 27, 2011 by Joanne

[Pamela H in Texas]

Oh, as if I haven't (and won't) post enough in this thread....

 

I think the grocery store thing is a REALLY good evaluation standard. If you won't use a method in the grocery store, you probably don't need to be using it. I have 7 children, five of whom are 5 and under. I absolutely can discipline in the grocery store (and do). I did today.

[Sputterduck]

The ones I know were not robots. They were pissed off teens who snuck around and did what they felt like ...only on the q-t. They were liars and as soon as they had a chance...off they went.

 

These were the kids cutting themselves, on drugs, having multiple sexual partners...but seemingly first time obedient. Those parents were the ones who gave ME a hard time for not spanking...not forcing my girls to wear skirts, or keeping them from make up once they were 16.

 

I did not allow my kids to disobey....I worked with them...and taught them how to do what I wanted done.

 

Faithe

 

That's funny... the kids I knew who were like had had either parents who were very not strict or families that were dysfunctional. Also, there were some who cared more about their friends than health and morality and were really into the emo thing.

 

My friends and I were the good kids in school. The ones who were at the top of the class, went to top universities, and obeyed their parents. The parents of my friends were strict. They did expect first time obedience. They did require much of their children. Their homes were not dysfunctional. Love abounded. High expectations were set and met. My friend with the strictest parents got her masters *and* bachelors from Stanford in 4 years. Then she went out into the world and helped starving villages find an ecomonic means to support themselves. Every single person from this group has gone on to do great things with their lives.

 

None of us snuck out, skipped school, had sex, were cutters, smoked, did drugs, or hated our parents. Plenty of people in high school did, though.

Edited August 27, 2011 by Sputterduck

[WishboneDawn]

I'm just left feeling that discipline and obedience are perhaps lost arts, very much the way that dog training is. I want to re-find those arts.

 

Consider that real obedience might come from a child who's learned self-discipline. The spanking might get obedience but it really doesn't do much for self-discipline in a child. In a way they sometimes even work to opposite ends. Self-discipline (and I keep adding that 'self' because I really think that's the only kind there is) is about doing the right and good thing even when it's hard like doing the laundry or taking the cup to the sink. Obedience is just about doing what you're told. It's a mask or a show, but not the real substance. Even when I used it what I really meant was that my kids have the self-discipline to follow through on what I require them to do.

 

It really might be good to sit down and have a think on your goals in this. Keep in mind your actually raising adults. Looking at your kids as future adults, is it self-discipline you want for them or obedience?

 

I apologize for focusing on 100% obedience....of course I know this is real life. And of course I know children aren't dogs. But in another way, they are. They are social animals, able to learn a structure of conduct and right behavior.

 

I think you're actually looking more for that self-discipline piece.

 

After reading Godly Tomatoes, I started spanking for ALL disobedience. I have to say it made a huge positive improvement in our house. I went from losing my temper frequently to not losing my temper at all, which made for a happier home. If there's one thing my dog training has taught me, its how to mete out discipline fairly and without emotion. The major flaw that I saw is that it worked in the home, but not out of the home because I'm not going to spank in the middle of the grocery store. Kids, like dogs, realize that type of thing very quickly.

 

But now of course I've slipped back....my kids are not THAT bad...I mean I'm not someone you'd shake your head at in the grocery store:D I would not have what I call major discipline problems. But it does bother me. Its very hard to throw yourself into something without being confident of the results, or confident that you're doing the right thing. So that is where this question is coming from. I DO want obedience...but I don't know exactly HOW to get it.

 

Consider that things have slipped then. You're spanking wasn't really working as well as you think or really getting you the results you wanted. If it was, there wouldn't be the slipping back when it stopped. Consider also that you need something that works a) when you're in public and b) when they're out of the nest. That's self-discipline. See posts from Chucki, Joanne and I for more info on that. :D

 

I've got a book recommendation for you that I think would REALLY help you sort this out. It's Barbara Coloroso's Kids Are Worth It! It's not a point-by-point guidebook but more of a read that will help you give your parenting goals real thought and then start building a foundation.

 

She also talks about parents who come from either very strict or very permissive backgrounds and how they tend to swing from one extreme to the other in their parenting. I'm wondering if some of that might apply? In any case it will probably help ground you a bit.

 

Alright, so now since I have broken all of my own rules, this thread is officially a free for all.....:lol:

 

No biggie. It's one of those hot button topics. Take what works and ignore what doesn't. :D

[Pamela H in Texas]

Please come see what you can do with my Basset hound that refuses to "come."

 

My lhasa is sitting here driving me batty. EVERY single time there is ANY sound in the house or someone comes in or out of the garage--something that happens a lot at night as my hubby has a man-cave in the garage so we all (older kids and me) join and leave him multiple times.

 

BTW, this has to be something wrong with us as our last two dogs did it also.

[FO4UR]

Thanks for lots of good responses! Don't have time to respond to more right now, but thought I'd give a quick answer even though I am disobeying my own rule :)

 

I will try to give you my quick psych profile:

I was raised in a liberal, permissive household. We were polite, well behaved children. We had an affectionate and loving relationship. I never backtalked or was sassy, but on a deeper level, obedience and respect was missing.

 

Fast forward to my adult, pre-children years. I was a dog trainer. I can get complete, reliable off-leash obedience from any dog, under any situation (again, short of the jumping off the bridge command.) If you don't believe me it is because permissive, relationship building training which focuses on what the dog is feeling has permeated the landscaping and what I would call 'real' dog training has been erased from our collective consciousness.

 

Fast forward to post-kids years. Heeeeeelp!!!!! :D My kids are wild animals. They are friendly, social and loving, but spirited and wild. They run and run and run. I start reading books about ADHD even though I believe 100% that it doesn't exist. :D Slowly, I turn into a nagging, frustrated parent "how many times do I have to tell you...."

 

A dog must listen within a second of being given a command. I never thought that either could or should apply to kids. But deep down I always wanted it to. I wanted it to for two reasons: 1) I believe whole-heartedly that obedience is good for the soul. I understand that others do not. 2) When I am not obeyed I feel frustrated and disrespected. Perhaps some would just say I need therapy.

 

So, over the last year, I've had what I would call an awakening. I read a book called "Getting your child to do what you want them to do" or something like that. I don't think it advocated spanking, but it did advocate obedience. (Actually, its probably time for me to go back and re-read that.) That is when I began to realize that maybe I can merge my dog and child worlds. Then I read Raising Godly Tomatoes, and it was an epiphany that anyone would even THINK of disciplining a child who didn't listen on the first time. Up until then, I was more of a 1-2-3 parent. Of course I know from dog training that that means 'disobeying me twice is OK' but I just didn't know a different way.

 

I'm just left feeling that discipline and obedience are perhaps lost arts, very much the way that dog training is. I want to re-find those arts. I definitely wasn't taught it growing up. I envy those who grew up in households where they were obedient and thus know instinctively how to pass that on.

 

I apologize for focusing on 100% obedience....of course I know this is real life. And of course I know children aren't dogs. But in another way, they are. They are social animals, able to learn a structure of conduct and right behavior.

 

After reading Godly Tomatoes, I started spanking for ALL disobedience. I have to say it made a huge positive improvement in our house. I went from losing my temper frequently to not losing my temper at all, which made for a happier home. If there's one thing my dog training has taught me, its how to mete out discipline fairly and without emotion. The major flaw that I saw is that it worked in the home, but not out of the home because I'm not going to spank in the middle of the grocery store. Kids, like dogs, realize that type of thing very quickly.

 

But now of course I've slipped back....my kids are not THAT bad...I mean I'm not someone you'd shake your head at in the grocery store:D I would not have what I call major discipline problems. But it does bother me. Its very hard to throw yourself into something without being confident of the results, or confident that you're doing the right thing. So that is where this question is coming from. I DO want obedience...but I don't know exactly HOW to get it.

 

Alright, so now since I have broken all of my own rules, this thread is officially a free for all.....:lol:

 

 

Before you ask HOW, ask WHY.

 

 

I think it's completely unhealthy for children to have the obedience of a trained dog. "Children are born persons." (quote from Charlotte Mason) They are born with the ability to think and reason and make choices outside of a master. They are born with the desire to use their own brain, their own hands, their own logic. To demand perfect obedience is to deny their humanity.

 

Children are also born imitators. They do as you do, not as you say. If you attempt to control them with threats/punishments/etc....they will do the SAME to you. (I'm going to throw this temper-fit if you don't give me what I want!!!)

 

There is a power/control issue here. Let go of it, and love your dc.

[Guest submarines]

A dog must listen within a second of being given a command. I never thought that either could or should apply to kids. But deep down I always wanted it to.

 

Errrrrrrr, dogs are trained using behaviorist techniques, reinforcement schedules, punishments and rewards. Their cognitive abilities are at best approaching human 3 year old. There's no comparion between human and canine emotional, social, cognitive development. Do you really want your children to obey within a second? Don't you want them to learn to think first? There are horrific examples in history where people just blindly obeyed.

[WishboneDawn]

Oh, as if I haven't (and won't) post enough in this thread....

 

I think the grocery store thing is a REALLY good evaluation standard. If you won't use a method in the grocery store, you probably don't need to be using it. I have 7 children, five of whom are 5 and under. I absolutely can discipline in the grocery store (and do). I did today.

 

That's a great point. You're parenting can't be depend on being in the right place. It has to be something you can put into action anytime, anywhere.

[LucyStoner]

The best breakdown of this often not developmentally appropriate expectation I have ever read comes from:

 

http://goybparenting.com/?page_id=54

 

I agree with the goal of having kids listen the first time, but I think it is a matter of showing and doing and not merely telling at young ages. It's a process. Anything that promises immediate results, a one size fits all kids approach etc is something that I would back away from for MY sake and the sake of MY KIDS.

[Ginevra]

I have an idea to turn off the debate response:

 

Yes, I achieved obedience. I did it by ______________________________________________.

 

:lol:

 

ETA: I see a lot more posts since I've posted this...going back and reading now...

 

Yes, I achieved obedience. I did it by relating to my children as dearly loved human beings. Nobody wants to offend their best buddy.

 

However, I'm under no illusion that I'm all done, as my kids are not finished baking yet.

 

Thanks for lots of good responses! Don't have time to respond to more right now, but thought I'd give a quick answer even though I am disobeying my own rule :)

 

I will try to give you my quick psych profile:

I was raised in a liberal, permissive household. We were polite, well behaved children. We had an affectionate and loving relationship. I never backtalked or was sassy, but on a deeper level, obedience and respect was missing.

 

Fast forward to my adult, pre-children years. I was a dog trainer. I can get complete, reliable off-leash obedience from any dog, under any situation (again, short of the jumping off the bridge command.) If you don't believe me it is because permissive, relationship building training which focuses on what the dog is feeling has permeated the landscaping and what I would call 'real' dog training has been erased from our collective consciousness.

 

Fast forward to post-kids years. Heeeeeelp!!!!! :D My kids are wild animals. They are friendly, social and loving, but spirited and wild. They run and run and run. I start reading books about ADHD even though I believe 100% that it doesn't exist. :D Slowly, I turn into a nagging, frustrated parent "how many times do I have to tell you...."

 

A dog must listen within a second of being given a command. I never thought that either could or should apply to kids. But deep down I always wanted it to. I wanted it to for two reasons: 1) I believe whole-heartedly that obedience is good for the soul. I understand that others do not. 2) When I am not obeyed I feel frustrated and disrespected. Perhaps some would just say I need therapy.

 

So, over the last year, I've had what I would call an awakening. I read a book called "Getting your child to do what you want them to do" or something like that. I don't think it advocated spanking, but it did advocate obedience. (Actually, its probably time for me to go back and re-read that.) That is when I began to realize that maybe I can merge my dog and child worlds. Then I read Raising Godly Tomatoes, and it was an epiphany that anyone would even THINK of disciplining a child who didn't listen on the first time. Up until then, I was more of a 1-2-3 parent. Of course I know from dog training that that means 'disobeying me twice is OK' but I just didn't know a different way.

 

I'm just left feeling that discipline and obedience are perhaps lost arts, very much the way that dog training is. I want to re-find those arts. I definitely wasn't taught it growing up. I envy those who grew up in households where they were obedient and thus know instinctively how to pass that on.

 

I apologize for focusing on 100% obedience....of course I know this is real life. And of course I know children aren't dogs. But in another way, they are. They are social animals, able to learn a structure of conduct and right behavior.

 

After reading Godly Tomatoes, I started spanking for ALL disobedience. I have to say it made a huge positive improvement in our house. I went from losing my temper frequently to not losing my temper at all, which made for a happier home. If there's one thing my dog training has taught me, its how to mete out discipline fairly and without emotion. The major flaw that I saw is that it worked in the home, but not out of the home because I'm not going to spank in the middle of the grocery store. Kids, like dogs, realize that type of thing very quickly.

 

But now of course I've slipped back....my kids are not THAT bad...I mean I'm not someone you'd shake your head at in the grocery store:D I would not have what I call major discipline problems. But it does bother me. Its very hard to throw yourself into something without being confident of the results, or confident that you're doing the right thing. So that is where this question is coming from. I DO want obedience...but I don't know exactly HOW to get it.

 

Alright, so now since I have broken all of my own rules, this thread is officially a free for all.....:lol:

 

A couple of things...First, I am a big fan of a perfectly obedient dog. It's kind of funny, because I just made a dog-obedience reference in the thread about Kevin Leman's book. I have a German Shepherd in part because I wanted a dog that can look and act like that - like they have their act together. I didn't want a little fuzzy lap dog that I can dress up in baby clothes. :D I wanted a dog that could look like one bad muther! ;)

 

BUT - my dog never needs to grow into an independent being. He never needs to be able to discipline himself or relate interpersonally with others. He will not raise children of his own that, in turn, will grow into independent beings.

 

My children will do all of these things. They will no longer look to me - like an obedient dog - to define the parameters of their lives; they will need to define them for themselves. That's why I think dog training is best left for dogs.

 

The part highlighted about the grocery store is why I don't believe in obedience through dictatorship. The cat's away, the mice will play. Obedience through relationship doesn't operate this way. It's why I don't do things that would harm my dh the moment his back is turned. I love him and I value our relationship, so I govern myself. He has no need to keep me in line, because I am in line through love. (BTW, this is not a far-fetched comparison; it was rather recently in history that the law regarded how a man "disciplined" his wife as his business.) I don't worry, "Will my kids act wild in the grocery store because they know the 'choke collar' is hanging on kitchen door at home?" We are best buddies and they generally don't wish to offend their best buddy. But if I was their dictator? Well, you know what usually happens to dictators...

[WishboneDawn]

I apologize for focusing on 100% obedience....of course I know this is real life. And of course I know children aren't dogs. But in another way, they are. They are social animals, able to learn a structure of conduct and right behavior.

 

This is getting some attention from people here but notice she said she knows kids are not dogs and the bolded is a pretty reasonable statement. I think she's closer to a lot of our thinking then she realizes, just needs a bit of help thinking this through. ;):001_smile:

[mommymilkies]

It's more that I don't believe children can be absolutely obedient.

 

If I remember my Bible stories correctly, not even God managed that.

 

Reflecting on my own upbringing, I would have to say that whatever parenting methods you use, this is going to take the whole time they live under your roof.

 

Rosie

I agree. Anecdotally, I didn't have any obedient spanked friends growing up. I don't expect instant obedience. I don't want my kids to have blind trust in anyone and to respond robotically to an order. I want them to think, understand, and learn to make good decisions. I do this by earning their trust. I could not earn their trust by hitting them. I would never trust anyone if they hit me, either.

[Guest submarines]

The major flaw that I saw is that it worked in the home, but not out of the home because I'm not going to spank in the middle of the grocery store.

 

 

 

This only reinforces the point that spanking fails as a discipline tool, *especially* when obedience is a priority.

 

When my children start acting inappropriate outside of the home, in most cases I just need to make eye contact, and shake my head. Usually I smile when I do it. Their faces would show something like, "I know, Moooooom," and the behaviour stops. (This doesn't apply to developmentally appropriate "misbehaviour" when toddlers might be hungry, restless, tired and so on. In those cases I intervene based on the situation and try to solve their issue before it overwhelms everybody.)

 

So if anything, they behave better when we are out of the home. Home is a safe place, and we are all naturally more relaxed at home. They don't have to be of their absolute best at home all the time. We all try, but it is not the end of the world if we are not.

[Joanne]

The best breakdown of this often not developmentally appropriate expectation I have ever read comes from:

 

http://goybparenting.com/?page_id=54

 

I agree with the goal of having kids listen the first time, but I think it is a matter of showing and doing and not merely telling at young ages. It's a process. Anything that promises immediate results, a one size fits all kids approach etc is something that I would back away from for MY sake and the sake of MY KIDS.

 

Wow. Thank you.

[Joker]

This only reinforces the point that spanking fails as a discipline tool, *especially* when obedience is a priority.

 

When my children start acting inappropriate outside of the home, in most cases I just need to make eye contact, and shake my head. Usually I smile when I do it. Their faces would show something like, "I know, Moooooom," and the behaviour stops. (This doesn't apply to developmentally appropriate "misbehaviour" when toddlers might be hungry, restless, tired and so on. In those cases I intervene based on the situation and try to solve their issue before it overwhelms everybody.)

 

So if anything, they behave better when we are out of the home. Home is a safe place, and we are all naturally more relaxed at home. They don't have to be of their absolute best at home all the time. We all try, but it is not the end of the world if we are not.

 

Yes! I hardly ever worry about my kids' behavior outside of the home. They are always so well behaved. They know what's expected because we've always been consisitent. They do relax at home and sometimes we have issues but they're great kids. I did spank the oldest twice but that was it and hasn't happened since she was 7. The youngest was never spanked.

[ktgrok]

OP, it sounds like what actually worked after reading Godly Tomatoes, and what worked with the dogs, was consistency. It wasn't the spanking, it was the consistency. It was the responding to problems before they escalate. You can do that without spanking. I do. My parents do too.

 

And to be totally honest, it works with dogs without punishment too. Really well. There have been numerous studies done at the university level showing that dogs trained without punishement, but with clicker training and rewards, responded both faster and more reliably than dogs trained with just punishment, or dogs trained with both punishment and reward. I've met one of the people that did such a study, seen the results, watched videos of it, etc. It is true, although counter intuitive. The reason is that if a dog is corrected sometimes for doing stuff, he learns that doing stuff might be corrected. So there is a lag between the command and the action because the dog has to decide if the action he is about to do is one that might be corrected. It is very fast, but it still is slower than dogs that were trained just with positive reinforcement.

 

I do believe most people let their dogs run wild, and their kids. I do believe in having very high expectations of both my dogs and my kids. I was a dog trainer for many years. I started using techniques that sound similar to yours, and only changed when I got a weimaraner from hades. Corrections didn't work on her. She'd take a leash pop ANY DAY over doing what you wanted. Pinch collars too. I eventually resorted to koehler type methods, and she freaked out. After using his methods to teach her to drop a frisbee she refused to ever pick on up again, in her whole life. It was at that moment I decided to find another way. Clicker training gave me faster, more reliable results, but it did take extra work up front. And I find the same with my kids.....positive relationship methods take more work up front than spanking, but yield better results by far.

[WishboneDawn]

 

When my children start acting inappropriate outside of the home, in most cases I just need to make eye contact, and shake my head.

 

Yup. Who needs a spank when you've got the "look"? :D

 

I know parents who wouldn't believe that I can adjust my kids' behaviour with just the cock of an eyebrow but it happens.

 

I should note I sometimes really, really, really suck at parenting too. I have my moments. Luckily the good stuff generally has lasting effects so that the off days aren't such a disaster.:)

[LauraGB]

My children are not "obedient". The are independent thinking individuals who benefit from advise. I've always treated them as such. I hope it continues to work well. With the teen years approaching, I'm crossing my fingers and hoping like crazy I made the right choice.

[Julie in Austin]

I think the grocery store thing is a REALLY good evaluation standard. If you won't use a method in the grocery store, you probably don't need to be using it.

 

:iagree:

 

Brilliant.

[ktgrok]

The ones I know were not robots. They were pissed off teens who snuck around and did what they felt like ...only on the q-t. They were liars and as soon as they had a chance...off they went.

 

These were the kids cutting themselves, on drugs, having multiple sexual partners...but seemingly first time obedient. Those parents were the ones who gave ME a hard time for not spanking...not forcing my girls to wear skirts, or keeping them from make up once they were 16.

 

I did not allow my kids to disobey....I worked with them...and taught them how to do what I wanted done.

 

Faithe

 

YES! The neighbors kids are "first time obedience" trained. They are also the ones I find to be sneaky and untrusthworthy. I don't like my son hanging out with them, as I feel they would throw him under the bus to protect themselves from a whipping.

[WishboneDawn]

That's funny... the kids I knew who were like had had either parents who were very not strict or families that were dysfunctional. Also, there were some who cared more about their friends than health and morality and were really into the emo thing.

 

My friends and I were the good kids in school. The ones who were at the top of the class, went to top universities, and obeyed their parents. The parents of my friends were strict. They did expect first time obedience. They did require much of their children. Their homes were not dysfunctional. Love abounded. High expectations were set and met. My friend with the strictest parents got her masters *and* bachelors from Stanford in 4 years. Then she went out into the world and helped starving villages find an ecomonic means to support themselves. Every single person from this group has gone on to do great things with their lives.

 

None of us snuck out, skipped school, had sex, were cutters, smoked, did drugs, or hated our parents. Plenty of people in high school did, though.

 

I suspect there are parents doing FTO well and those doing it very badly and you and the other poster know folks on opposite ends of the spectrum.

[Oops, duplicate account :/]

I really liked Dr. Kevin Leman's book Have a New Kid by Friday. It really worked in my case. My kids obey me without my having to spank or lose my temper. I seriously love that book. It's hard work though at first. The idea is you train the parents not the kids... Read it and see what you think.

 

Oh, thanks for the rec. Off to check out the reviews and get a feel for it. Thanks!

[KungFuPanda]

OP, how is your relationship with your parents today? Do you really believe you'd be a better person if your parents hit you consistently?

 

The trouble with comparing children to animals is that a dog is dependent upon you it's whole life and it dies in its teens or sooner. With children, it's about raising responsible, complex adult humans with the self-confidence to make their way in this world independently. With a dog, you can get away with training that makes life easier for you today, but with kids you expect to have a relationship with them in their adult years. They'll decide to trust you or not with their own children based on how you treat them now.

[texasmama]

My children are mostly obedient most of the time with mostly good attitudes. As others have stated, that is the best I hope for. My goal is not perfect obedience all the time.

 

I achieve that in an ongoing, never ending process of respecting them as having the full rights of personhood, though they are not fully mature, and pour on love, patience and clear boundaries. I like natural and logical consequences parenting, and I am always looking beyond the behavior to the heart.

 

My outlook is that I am not raising children. I am raising adults. Because that is what they will be some day. I consider myself to constantly be in the role of teacher and guide as they navigate through their childhoods to become the person God intended them to be. My goal is not to get ini God's way too much by imposing my own stamp on their lives. I am not attempting to raise mini-me's.

 

Mostly, my children are delightful once they mature a bit. I hit a rough patch with my teenager for a couple of years, rode it out, and we are both better for it. I get outside help and advice when needed (professional counseling). I give extra grace to the child with learning disabilities and anxiety. I give my kids clear feedback about how their behavior affects me and others. I explain my decisions. I use positive reinforcement liberally when needed for behavioral change. I don't expect behavior that is developmentally beyond what they are capable of.

 

What I have found is that forging the relationship through the above methods causes them to mostly want to obey me. Sorry I don't have any very concrete answers for you. I parent very intuitively, and that can be difficult to quantify. My kids are pretty delightful little folks, though, and I truly enjoy them, as do others, so hopefully that means that I am doing something right. We should have the answer to that in about 20 more years.;)

[Guest submarines]

Yup. Who needs a spank when you've got the "look"? :D

 

I know parents who wouldn't believe that I can adjust my kids' behaviour with just the cock of an eyebrow but it happens.

 

I should note I sometimes really, really, really suck at parenting too. I have my moments. Luckily the good stuff generally has lasting effects so that the off days aren't such a disaster.:)

 

Oh, me too, naturally. I just resolve to try my best, and I forgive myself for my mistakes. If I didn't, I'd be depressed. And I do make mistakes, and sometimes overreact, or act or say something out of frustration. It happens. I'm absolutely not perfect, and that's okay.

[warriormom]

We do spank in our family, but we have achieved obedience without really spanking (except for serious offenses).

 

We are consistent. We ask them to obey all the way, right away and with a happy heart. I have repeated that millions of times. We do a lot of planning sessions before we go places, "I expect that you....if not, you get one warning then we go home without complaint." I am one of those who believes in taking away the child's currency. If they love to play xbox, watch a show a day, paint for free time, that is what I take away one of those for disobedience. These are not rights but priveledges (sp?). The Well-Behaved Child by John Rosemond is a GREAT source for good common sense advice without spanking. The key is consistency to the point that even if you do not want to be consistent you are. You just need to keep in mind the "end game". Having who Children obey their parents, so they can obey God's word, so they can have a good life since they respect authority (boss, police officer, professor etc.) Oh and realize that the world does not revolve around them or owe them anything. A lot of adults still have not figured this out :)

[Sputterduck]

I suspect there are parents doing FTO well and those doing it very badly and you and the other poster know folks on opposite ends of the spectrum.

 

Yeah. There are bully FTO parents who do nothing but scare their kids for the slightest offenses and loving FTO parents who teach that ignoring someone until they're upset (ie not listening until mommy or daddy get angry) is wrong and disrespectful and not a loving way to treat people. That's why behind everything I think the key is tying heart strings. Bully parents tear apart heart strings and parents acting in love build them up.

[ktgrok]

Oh, and whomever it was that wants to teach the Bassett Hound to come...that is EASY!!! (if we are being reasonable and not asking said hound to come while he is mid rabbit chase...at that point medical studies have shown the part of the brain responsible for hearing is actually shut off). Start by saying "here!" every time you hand the dog a treat or put the food bowl down. After doing this a week straight say "here!" while a step away from the dog..so the dog has to move forward just a step. Do that for a few days. Then say "here" when two steps away from the dog, and give the treat. At this point start hiding the treat on your body, or on a nearby counter, and say "here" just in front of the dog, and give the treat. This teaches that even if your hands are empty, a treat could still appear. Start with greater distances again, but VERY gradually. When you can call the dog from any room of the house go outside to practice, but only from 1 inch away. When you increase distraction you need to decrease distance. Then work up to farther away. Then try again in another location, but from an inch away again. Then fade the treats some..but keep them most of the time. This is the one behavior I still give treats for most of the time. (I fade them for sit, down, stay, etc very quickly). Every now and then give a HUGE treat. A famous trainer told me that twice a year she hides a hamburger in a tree at a local dog park, before taking the dogs into it. While they are playing she will call them, and then produce a hamburger from a tree! The dogs think she is magic, and always come because they never know when she might pull a hamburger out of thin air :)

 

Hand in hand with this, while you are training the dog, don't use the word "here" with anything that the dog would see as punishment. So don't call the dog "here" and bathe it. Don't call the dog "here' and make it come inside when it wants to be outside, that is punishment to the dog. Eventually, when the dog is trained you can call them in those situations, but not in the beginning.

 

Hope that helps.

[Sputterduck]

Yup. Who needs a spank when you've got the "look"? :D

 

I know parents who wouldn't believe that I can adjust my kids' behaviour with just the cock of an eyebrow but it happens.

 

I should note I sometimes really, really, really suck at parenting too. I have my moments. Luckily the good stuff generally has lasting effects so that the off days aren't such a disaster.:)

 

Ha! My grandma said her father never laid a hand on his kids, even though there were many of them and his wife died and left him alone to raise them. She said he never needed to because he had a "look" that could not be taken lightly.

[MrsBasil]

Oh, and whomever it was that wants to teach the Bassett Hound to come...that is EASY!!! (if we are being reasonable and not asking said hound to come while he is mid rabbit chase...at that point medical studies have shown the part of the brain responsible for hearing is actually shut off). Start by saying "here!" every time you hand the dog a treat or put the food bowl down. After doing this a week straight say "here!" while a step away from the dog..so the dog has to move forward just a step. Do that for a few days. Then say "here" when two steps away from the dog, and give the treat. At this point start hiding the treat on your body, or on a nearby counter, and say "here" just in front of the dog, and give the treat. This teaches that even if your hands are empty, a treat could still appear. Start with greater distances again, but VERY gradually. When you can call the dog from any room of the house go outside to practice, but only from 1 inch away. When you increase distraction you need to decrease distance. Then work up to farther away. Then try again in another location, but from an inch away again. Then fade the treats some..but keep them most of the time. This is the one behavior I still give treats for most of the time. (I fade them for sit, down, stay, etc very quickly). Every now and then give a HUGE treat. A famous trainer told me that twice a year she hides a hamburger in a tree at a local dog park, before taking the dogs into it. While they are playing she will call them, and then produce a hamburger from a tree! The dogs think she is magic, and always come because they never know when she might pull a hamburger out of thin air :)

 

Hand in hand with this, while you are training the dog, don't use the word "here" with anything that the dog would see as punishment. So don't call the dog "here" and bathe it. Don't call the dog "here' and make it come inside when it wants to be outside, that is punishment to the dog. Eventually, when the dog is trained you can call them in those situations, but not in the beginning.

 

Hope that helps.

 

 

Thank you! I'm going to have to try this with our lab whose brain hasn't quite grown in yet. PM if have any tricks for jumping. :001_smile:

 

OP, so sorry to hijack. Hope you find a workable solution. :grouphug:

[ktgrok]

Thank you! I'm going to have to try this with our lab whose brain hasn't quite grown in yet. PM if have any tricks for jumping. :001_smile:

 

OP, so sorry to hijack. Hope you find a workable solution. :grouphug:

 

Teach him a REALLY good, fast, reliable sit/stay as his automatic reaction when he greets people. He can't sit and jump at the same time :)

[LucyStoner]

Wow. Thank you.

 

I realized after I posted that you had already posted the exact same link. :blushing: Reading after a long day at work. :001_smile:

 

ETA: a smarter lady than me pointed out that you are the person behind goyb parenting. All I can say is THANK YOU, your site has seriously helped me and my husband and thus our whole family. I reccomend goyb to so many people I know IRL. I volunteer to lead a couple of parenting support groups per year or so and I mention your stuff all of the time.

Edited August 27, 2011 by kijipt

[LibraryLover]

Crate training.

 

My kids love their crates. I put fresh water and Skittles in there daily.

 

Works like a charm. Seriously. My kids have never been arrested and they are very decent folks. One got a free ride to grad school and everything.

Edited August 27, 2011 by LibraryLover

[Ariston]

OP, it sounds like what actually worked after reading Godly Tomatoes, and what worked with the dogs, was consistency. It wasn't the spanking, it was the consistency. It was the responding to problems before they escalate.

 

And to be totally honest, it works with dogs without punishment too. Really well. There have been numerous studies done at the university level showing that dogs trained without punishement, but with clicker training and rewards, responded both faster and more reliably than dogs trained with just punishment, or dogs trained with both punishment and reward. I've met one of the people that did such a study, seen the results, watched videos of it, etc. It is true, although counter intuitive. The reason is that if a dog is corrected sometimes for doing stuff, he learns that doing stuff might be corrected. So there is a lag between the command and the action because the dog has to decide if the action he is about to do is one that might be corrected. It is very fast, but it still is slower than dogs that were trained just with positive reinforcement.

 

I do believe most people let their dogs run wild, and their kids. I do believe in having very high expectations of both my dogs and my kids. I was a dog trainer for many years. I started using techniques that sound similar to yours, and only changed when I got a weimaraner from hades. Corrections didn't work on her. She'd take a leash pop ANY DAY over doing what you wanted. Pinch collars too. I eventually resorted to koehler type methods, and she freaked out. After using his methods to teach her to drop a frisbee she refused to ever pick on up again, in her whole life. It was at that moment I decided to find another way. Clicker training gave me faster, more reliable results, but it did take extra work up front. And I find the same with my kids.....positive relationship methods take more work up front than spanking, but yield better results by far.

 

Oh no, I didn't know there would be anyone on here dog savvy enough to realize that this was a clicker vs. Koehler debate!!! I am terribly tempted to get into it, but I'll refrain. :D One thing that I will say about the dog world is that at least most trainers have the same goal in mind. From reading these responses, even the mere idea of obedience in children is controversial.

 

I completely agree with what is in bold above. Spanking makes the reaction to disobedience very easy, thoughtless, and consistent. You disobey, you get a spank. But I believe you that it is achievable without spanking. In fact in Godly Tomatoes, she addresses situations when a parent does not want to spank, and states that it will be a lot more work but is achievable. That is really what I'm struggling with.