Algebra in 7th grade?

[ktgrok]

My sister, who was a vice principal at a middle school this year, told me that the advanced students take Algebra in 7th grade now, and Geometry in 8th grade. I remember the advanced track being Algebra in 8th grade! Now I'm panicking!

[wapiti]

I think it depends on the location. Here, that seems to be the case (I have a relative who recently did alg in 7th, geom in 8th in PS). However, there were a couple threads on the accelerated board recently about NYS not allowing kids to sit for the algebra Regents exam until they're in 8th (apparently some get around this by taking it in August at the start of 8th).

 

I don't see a need to panic, though :). There will be time to take calc in high school for those taking alg in 8th.

[Carol in Cal.]

It's true. Around here the norm is Algebra 1 in 8th grade, and accelerated is faster than that. Having said that, there are a LOT of kids who take algebra 1 two or even three times.

[NittanyJen]

Given what has happened to the so-called AP classes over time, one of two things will happen.

 

1. Plenty of kids will fail, either in algebra or in future courses.

 

2. The courses will be called algebra, or they will become watered down so that students can pass, and then subsequent courses will be watered down.

 

Neurologically, a very advanced student can handle a true algebra course by 7th grade, but they are the exception, not the norm; their brains are just not developmentally ready for it yet except in a handful of cases. The "Tiger Mother" parents pushing for this are doing their children no favors-- their kids not only fail the courses (or get watered down fake courses like the kids in many over-subscribed AP courses today) but they miss out on the chance to succeed by taking an appropriate math course that sets them up for actually doing very well in math in the future.

 

I really hate it when I hear of administrators caving to parental pressure instead of being professionals-- kind of like doctors performing procedures to make a patient happy, even if they know it will do the patient no good (or even potential harm).

[Elizabeth in WA]

Neurologically, a very advanced student can handle a true algebra course by 7th grade, but they are the exception, not the norm; their brains are just not developmentally ready for it yet except in a handful of cases.

 

It is my understanding that this argument, based on Piaget, has not held up to specific research and that algebra readiness is based not on some kind of neurological / developmental readiness but on pre-algebra (ie arithmetic) preparedness.

 

The advanced tracks around here do Algebra in 7th, and in the gifted programs even earlier. These kids frequently go on to upper level dual enrollment programs through the flagship state university in their senior year.

[Crimson Wife]

Neurologically, a very advanced student can handle a true algebra course by 7th grade, but they are the exception, not the norm; their brains are just not developmentally ready for it yet except in a handful of cases.

 

How is it that Asian and European countries have their college prep students take algebra 1 in 7th with no problem? Are their students somehow more neurologically advanced? Or are they just better prepared during K-6?

[Chris in VA]

I just asked some questions about algebra preparedness on this thread. Maybe you'll find it helpful!

[SailorMom]

I am sure some kids can handle algebra in 7th fine.

I think the majority of kids do better in 8th or 9th.

Of course, we have the benefit of working with our DC one-on-one, so on the boards there is more success than there would be at a PS.

As for other countries - I have no idea. But there are some aspects of algebra that are easier to really "get" when they are taught at older ages.

[TCB]

I hope you'll excuse my ignorance of the American school system but what is driving people to do algebra earlier and earlier. I can understand if you have an advanced student, but why everyone else earlier and earlier. Around here the PS system is having quite a bit of trouble getting 50% of their students to the proficient level in math in the elementary tests they take so how can possible rushing ahead help this. My understanding that the poor results on these tests are pretty widespread.

[ktgrok]

Ok, I looked at the pre test/placement test for AoPS pre algebra, and the only thing he couldn't do right now is the negative numbers, which wouldn't take long to learn. Hmm....

[TCB]

This is an interesting thread. My dd11 in 6th is just starting SM 5A and I don't think we'll get to Algebra 1 until 8th gr because, although she is quite able to do math, she just does not enjoy it. However I just looked at the placement pre-test for AOPS too and she could easily do everything except the neg numbers ?s. In fact, what she's learned about fractions is quite a lot beyond the test.

I'm not speaking from experience here, and I don't understand the system, but that course certainly looks doable for a kid that likes math, and maybe even for one that doesn't.

[NittanyJen]

It is my understanding that this argument, based on Piaget, has not held up to specific research and that algebra readiness is based not on some kind of neurological / developmental readiness but on pre-algebra (ie arithmetic) preparedness.

 

The advanced tracks around here do Algebra in 7th, and in the gifted programs even earlier. These kids frequently go on to upper level dual enrollment programs through the flagship state university in their senior year.

 

My response has nothing to do with Piaget, but with typical US instruction and outcomes. I have tutored at the nearby University and my husband is a professor of mathematics there. I have also tutored younger kids.

 

I get so many protests of "But I got an 'A' in honors/AP Calculus in high school, how can I be failing college math?". Simple. They were taught how to plug formulae into problems. They became great at memorizing lists of formulae. But they never understood any of what they were doing, and only stuck all that memorization into short-term memory. Mathematics is not about memorization; it is about understanding, and applying a toolkit to the correct situation and knowing how and when to combine different tools, because they get the 'why.'

 

Now, back to the Asian comment... Not all Asian countries do a great job of this either. In his upper level classes, my husband sees a lot of kids struggle with great technical competency, but low ability to creatively apply knowledge at the appropriate time. It is as much about being presented with material when you are ready to really move forward with it as the instruction you receive.

 

The effects are real, not some discredited theory, or we would not see so many kids graduating from high schools with coursework in trig, calc, and more, and then hitting college and having to really remediate their math knowledge because they don't even know the basic shape of a parabola, a sin curve, the trig identities, or far worse, why these ideas are useful not only in math but in nature.

 

Have you ever sat through an ecology course with people so far behind in calculus that population ecology had to be taught without calculus? It can be done, but there is no excuse for it at the college level-- what a monumental waste of time! The usual culprit is accelerating students beyond where they ought to be to make parents believe all of their kids are exceptional, and in the process, robbing kids of their chance to succeed.

 

If each proceeds at his or her own natural pace, A handful will be ready in 6th or 7th. Many will be ready in 8th. 9th is good for a solid student too. A few who just need more reinforcement may hold off a bit longer. People are all different and we all have our strengths and weaknesses. But I would be surprised to see more than 5-6 in a co-hort of 400 ready for algebra by 6th or 7th grade and really do well with it.

[TCB]

"Simple. They were taught how to plug formulae into problems. They became great at memorizing lists of formulae. But they never understood any of what they were doing, and only stuck all that memorization into short-term memory. Mathematics is not about memorization; it is about understanding, and applying a toolkit to the correct situation and knowing how and when to combine different tools, because they get the 'why.' "

 

 

This makes a lot of sense to me. I managed to get through math in high school in the UK by memorizing the above but not really knowing the 'why'. I'm only just now learning the 'why' as I go through it teaching dd.

[Jen500]

My response has nothing to do with Piaget, but with typical US instruction and outcomes. I have tutored at the nearby University and my husband is a professor of mathematics there. I have also tutored younger kids.

 

 

Jen, how much of the problem do you think is lack of good instruction (either the teacher's lack of knowledge or ability to teach the material, and/or the actual program used) vs. pushing many kids to take courses before they are ready? Or something else?

[Carol in Cal.]

I hope you'll excuse my ignorance of the American school system but what is driving people to do algebra earlier and earlier. I can understand if you have an advanced student, but why everyone else earlier and earlier. Around here the PS system is having quite a bit of trouble getting 50% of their students to the proficient level in math in the elementary tests they take so how can possible rushing ahead help this. My understanding that the poor results on these tests are pretty widespread.

 

Math wars, about 15 years ago, drove math education down into lower grades by setting finishing first year calculus by the end of high school as the final goal. That drove everything else back quite a bit.

[regentrude]

How is it that Asian and European countries have their college prep students take algebra 1 in 7th with no problem? Are their students somehow more neurologically advanced? Or are they just better prepared during K-6?

 

Several reasons:

1. They are better prepared, because the math teachers receive a better education and know more math.

2. The math instuction, at least in Europe, is not as compartmentalized as in the US. There IS no math class called "algebra" where easy and hard algebra concepts are lumped together - algebra concepts are introduced beginning in 6th grade, BUT mixed with arithmetic and geometry (many geometry concepts the US saves for 10th grade are taught in 6th grade - basic proofs, construction and congruency of triangles). A 7th grader is taught linear equations with one unknown, but quadratics may not be introduced till 9th grade. This is a much more effective way of teaching algebra concepts and skills than waiting until the student is ready for the complete algebra 1 content and lumping it into one year.

[Crimson Wife]

I hope you'll excuse my ignorance of the American school system but what is driving people to do algebra earlier and earlier. I can understand if you have an advanced student, but why everyone else earlier and earlier. Around here the PS system is having quite a bit of trouble getting 50% of their students to the proficient level in math in the elementary tests they take so how can possible rushing ahead help this. My understanding that the poor results on these tests are pretty widespread.

 

California decided to make Algebra 1 in 8th grade the standard based on some pretty faulty reasoning IMHO. Studies had shown that students who had taken Algebra 1 in 8th grade were more successful in college. Well, duh- it used to be that only the smart kids did Algebra 1 before high school!

 

Shifting average students from 9th to 8th meant that the honors track also had to get shifted forward a year so that the honors students wouldn't lose their advantage in college admissions.

[ktgrok]

I realized today that my son is already 12, going into 6th grade, because I didn't start him in kindy until age 6. I think that means he will have a better chance at being successful.

[NittanyJen]

Jen, how much of the problem do you think is lack of good instruction (either the teacher's lack of knowledge or ability to teach the material, and/or the actual program used) vs. pushing many kids to take courses before they are ready? Or something else?

 

I think there are of a lot of things going on.

 

I have seen actual math classes in the University (and tutored some individuals) who were math teachers in the PS system, trying to get their "highly qualified" status, who were absolutely griping about taking college math classes, because "math is something that I just hate and never understood!" And these were math teachers at the middle and high school levels. One was an "AP Calc" teacher. Taking calculus.

 

I do think that algebra in the 8th grade is often possible-- sometimes I wonder why kids have to spend so many years learning basic arithmetic over and over again, though these days teachers do have to spend soooo much time reviewing the prior year, getting everyone on the same page, and then gearing up for NCLB testing, that much instructional time is completely wasted.

 

Another issue to consider is that a particular "8th grader" might be any of a variety of ages-- people start kids in Kindy a week after the 5th birthday, or hold them back "to give them an extra year" and enroll them a week before their 7th birthday . . . in a given class, you can have a nearly 3 year spread, before factoring in any kids who may have skipped a grade or been held back in the intervening years! On the conservative side, an 8th grade class might have a 4-year spread of ages in it. Hence a variety of readiness and neurological maturity (and the idea of neurological maturity is not completely discredited, or the entire idea of the trivium would be out the window, now wouldn't it?).

 

Another issue, particularly in American school systems, and even in some homeschool programs (not all) is the insistence in breaking mathematics (and other subjects) up into discrete chunks instead of teaching them as interrelated. I mean this as mathematical subjects and in terms of academic subjects in general. I cringe at "no math physics" courses, or history courses that don't involve literature, literature courses that don't invoke the historical context in which it was written (can you imagine discussing "Roll of Thunder, Hear My Cry" with no knowledge of the reconstruction? Or "Julius Caesar" with no understanding of the development of Rome? It can be done, but not with any real richness).

 

Mathematics informs pretty much every discipline, from art to all sciences to geography to music and agriculture. It makes no sense to teach it in isolation. Geometry and calculus and trigonometry and algebra are all intertwined, not discrete subjects having nothing to do with one another. Math books at the elementary level that separate multiplication from division, and division from fractions just drive me nuts. I do feel that math programs that teach the basics of arithmetic as being interrelated do a better job of making math make sense, and can move students along at a faster pace-- particularly with a good instructor/mentor at the helm. Of course, everyone learns differently, and there is no "one size fits all" curriculum approach. After all, not everyone in Asia is a math genius, either :).

[Nakia]

Ok, I looked at the pre test/placement test for AoPS pre algebra, and the only thing he couldn't do right now is the negative numbers, which wouldn't take long to learn. Hmm....

 

 

Where did you find that placement test?

[regentrude]

Where did you find that placement test?

 

http://www.artofproblemsolving.com/Store/products/prealgebra/pretest.pdf

[kiana]

I get so many protests of "But I got an 'A' in honors/AP Calculus in high school, how can I be failing college math?". Simple. They were taught how to plug formulae into problems. They became great at memorizing lists of formulae. But they never understood any of what they were doing, and only stuck all that memorization into short-term memory. Mathematics is not about memorization; it is about understanding, and applying a toolkit to the correct situation and knowing how and when to combine different tools, because they get the 'why.'

 

:iagree:

 

I see this all. the. time. I'd rather have a student who took *and understood* Pre-Algebra and Algebra 1 than one who's gone through calculus and never understood anything but *thinks* he did.

[Nakia]

http://www.artofproblemsolving.com/Store/products/prealgebra/pretest.pdf

 

Thank you! I think I have seen that before.

[Amy1k]

I haven't read the entire thread...I have a 15 year old, public school sophomore. He is taking pre-calculus this year. He took Algebra (for high school credit) in 7th grade along with about 30 of his classmates. Only about half of them ended up passing the class. I'm not sure how many students ended up passing Algebra 2 last year, but his class only had 15 students.

[regentrude]

I have seen actual math classes in the University (and tutored some individuals) who were math teachers in the PS system, trying to get their "highly qualified" status, who were absolutely griping about taking college math classes, because "math is something that I just hate and never understood!" And these were math teachers at the middle and high school levels. One was an "AP Calc" teacher. Taking calculus.

 

This alone would suffice to explain the abysmal state of math education.

Why on Earth do people like this decide to become math teachers???

[elegantlion]

I realized today that my son is already 12, going into 6th grade, because I didn't start him in kindy until age 6. I think that means he will have a better chance at being successful.

 

In our case my son was ready by scope and begging to do algebra in 7th. We started. He turned 13 right after we started school. Because we had a beyond chaotic year we are finishing algebra I in 8th. This was our back up plan anyway, so I'm not too distressed. I'm using some MEP (GCSE level) which is integrated math as well.

 

I'm anxious to see how he'll do this year. We started last week, but didn't work math in until Monday.

[kiana]

This alone would suffice to explain the abysmal state of math education.

Why on Earth do people like this decide to become math teachers???

 

I have had pre-service teachers tell me they didn't need to know 'all that math' because they were 'just going to teach pre-algebra and algebra'.

 

I have had them tell me they were 'good at math' in high school and didn't understand 'all this advanced stuff' but were continuing with a math ed major because they didn't know what else to do.

 

But I really think the roots are further down, where we have pre-service elementary school teachers who are making comments such as 'I don't need to know advanced stuff like fractions, because I only want to teach kindergarten.'

[Ali in OR]

I taught high school math in CA for four years about 20 years ago. I taught at an excellent public school in the shadow of a great university--so lots of professors kids in our classes. Over 90% of students went on to 4 year colleges/universities. The standard for the honors track in this district was (and still is by the way) algebra in 8th grade, honors geometry in 9th grade. This led to BC calculus in the senior year, and the honors courses were all rigorous, difficult courses. In my two years teaching the honors freshman courses, there was 1 student out of about 140 who took the class as an 8th grader (biking over from the middle school to do so). It was a hard class for many of those bright, hard-working 9th graders. They were just reaching the stage of being ready for proving theorems. You can definitely teach geometry to 8th graders, but you have to water down what you are teaching. And if the standard in CA is now that the average students are all doing algebra in 8th grade, I guarantee you that those classes are less rigorous than they used to be. Or the kids aren't passing. I've taught too many kids (hard workers with plenty of academic support at home) who found our rigorous high school courses a challenge to think that that is now all being mastered in middle school courses by kids who are 1-3 years younger.

 

If you want to push algebra to younger than 8th grade, my question is "to what end?" Is your child so motivated by math that they will take college level courses while still in high school? In my experience, there are very few students with this level of talent and interest. I can think of some specific individuals who were accelerated early who simply stopped taking math after calculus. I don't think that acceleration serves the student well--better to take calculus a year older, a year more mature. And if your child wants to pursue science or technology in college, they will be well-prepared by following the algebra in 8th to BC calc senior year path. I have an engineering degree as does my husband as do many of our friends and family, and none of us took algebra in 7th grade. It isn't necessary.

[8filltheheart]

I have had pre-service teachers tell me they didn't need to know 'all that math' because they were 'just going to teach pre-algebra and algebra'.

 

I have had them tell me they were 'good at math' in high school and didn't understand 'all this advanced stuff' but were continuing with a math ed major because they didn't know what else to do.

 

But I really think the roots are further down, where we have pre-service elementary school teachers who are making comments such as 'I don't need to know advanced stuff like fractions, because I only want to teach kindergarten.'

 

Ok, am I the only one that is freaked out that any educated person (and oh my goodness, ones in education!) thinks that fractions are "advanced stuff"???

 

Yikesters!!

[8filltheheart]

I taught high school math in CA for four years about 20 years ago. I taught at an excellent public school in the shadow of a great university--so lots of professors kids in our classes. Over 90% of students went on to 4 year colleges/universities. The standard for the honors track in this district was (and still is by the way) algebra in 8th grade, honors geometry in 9th grade. This led to BC calculus in the senior year, and the honors courses were all rigorous, difficult courses. In my two years teaching the honors freshman courses, there was 1 student out of about 140 who took the class as an 8th grader (biking over from the middle school to do so). It was a hard class for many of those bright, hard-working 9th graders. They were just reaching the stage of being ready for proving theorems. You can definitely teach geometry to 8th graders, but you have to water down what you are teaching. And if the standard in CA is now that the average students are all doing algebra in 8th grade, I guarantee you that those classes are less rigorous than they used to be. Or the kids aren't passing. I've taught too many kids (hard workers with plenty of academic support at home) who found our rigorous high school courses a challenge to think that that is now all being mastered in middle school courses by kids who are 1-3 years younger.

 

If you want to push algebra to younger than 8th grade, my question is "to what end?" Is your child so motivated by math that they will take college level courses while still in high school? In my experience, there are very few students with this level of talent and interest. I can think of some specific individuals who were accelerated early who simply stopped taking math after calculus. I don't think that acceleration serves the student well--better to take calculus a year older, a year more mature. And if your child wants to pursue science or technology in college, they will be well-prepared by following the algebra in 8th to BC calc senior year path. I have an engineering degree as does my husband as do many of our friends and family, and none of us took algebra in 7th grade. It isn't necessary.

 

I agree completely. I attempted to articulate something like this on the cross-posted thread on the K8 board (but absolutely no where near as well!! Ali's post is far more coherent.)

 

I'm not sure of the purpose behind the push. 4 yr plans at the university level even for engineers starts at cal 1.

 

I do have 2 students that are ahead of alg in 8th, but neither of them "skipped" any math. They simply flew through their math books (except for ds who did skip the 2nd grade text b/c he taught himself multiplication through observation.) They both also took alg 1 twice, once w/ an easier text and once with a challenging text.

 

My ds loves math. He loves to take a math problem and go walking for an hour thinking about it. He is willing to work for hours solving a single problem. He is the type of student that really benefits from advancing b/c he would hate math if he was doing typical age level math. My dd.....not so much. Whereas my ds has taken alg 3, counting and probability, etc in addition to normal math sequence courses and will be taking cal BC as a 10th grader and will thrive in college level classes afterward, our dd will probably take cal AB in 11th and stats in 12th. (though those are yrs away and things may change......the difference is that while she is good in math, she doesn't love it the way ds does. Of course, that may change as well. 15/16 reveals a child that is often very different from the 12 yo version. ;) ) She just isn't "into" math like ds and doesn't want to spend her free time exploring all sorts of problems.

[Deniseibase]

This alone would suffice to explain the abysmal state of math education.

Why on Earth do people like this decide to become math teachers???

 

I dunno about elsewhere, but at my high school, considered one of the top schools in the state at the time, all the math teachers (except two who only taught the accelerated classes) were coaches first and foremost and taught math only because they had to teach something. They mostly stood up there and read out of the book.

 

The UPSIDE of that is, it makes me realize that whatever *I* do in my homeschool, no matter *MY* faults as a teacher, I can't possibly do any worse than that.

Edited August 21, 2011 by Deniseibase
forgot the last bit :-)

[Deniseibase]

They both also took alg 1 twice, once w/ an easier text and once with a challenging text.

 

Mind if I hijack the thread a little to ask what texts you used?

[Crimson Wife]

Why on Earth do people like this decide to become math teachers???

 

My SIL is a teacher, and her B.Ed. concentration was Special Education. The first year out of college, she was a general Special Ed. teacher. Then her principal needed someone to teach general ed 7th grade math, so SIL was assigned the class. Fortunately, she inherited the family love of math (FIL is a retired high school math teacher, DH works in finance, etc.) but I can see where someone who didn't like the subject much could wind up teaching it.

[Crimson Wife]

I dunno about elsewhere, but at my high school, considered one of the top schools in the state at the time, all the math teachers (except two who only taught the accelerated classes) were coaches first and foremost and taught math only because they had to teach something. They mostly stood up there and read out of the book.

 

I shouldn't :lol: because it's actually sad, but I know *EXACTLY* what you mean by this! That was my U.S. History 1 teacher. Excellent soccer coach, got our school's team to the state finals 5 years in a row, but couldn't teach worth beans. :glare:

[NittanyJen]

This alone would suffice to explain the abysmal state of math education.

Why on Earth do people like this decide to become math teachers???

 

My Uncle taught in a small, poorly funded, rural school. In 9th grade, you got him for general science. In 10th you had him for biology. In 11th, for chemistry. In 12th, for physics.

 

You teach where you are needed. Can you imagine being an 'expert' in all of those fields? He got such a complex about it, that even after retiring, he continued taking college classes in the sciences all the way until he died -- and tutoring the local HS students so he could share what he had learned.

[LNC]

Is it possible for a 12th grader to take Ap calc bc and Ap stat in the same year? That

is the main reason I would want my accelerated math son to take algebra in 7th.

[8filltheheart]

Mind if I hijack the thread a little to ask what texts you used?

 

I have used MUS's old version of the combination book of Algebra/Geometry. (They have since split the book in 2 and incorporated the honors book, but other than that the content is the same.) I use it as pre-alg/pre-geo.

 

I follow that with Foersters alg.

 

BUT.......neither Horizons nor AoPS had pre-alg books until this yr. I didn't even know about AoPS until my now 10th grader was in 8th. (and he has since used AoPS's alg 3, intro to counting & prob, pre-cal, as well as their original vols 1 and 2). I tried switching my dd who was in 6th last yr (and had finished MUS's alg/geo text early in the yr) over to AoPS alg. Unfortunately, the best part of AoPS is the discovery and since she had already completed MUS's alg, the discovery was missing and she therefore did not like the book and thought its teaching was dumb.

 

The switch to Foerster's isn't at all difficult. We fly through the first 5 chpts with the exception of the word problems and then slow down in chpt 6. B/c I have done it multiple ties, I find the process very easy. I'm not familiar enough with AoPS's discovery method to figure out where she could just jump in.

 

W/my remaining crew, I might just go into AoPS pre-alg and progress forward from there.

[Deniseibase]

Thanks, 8FillTheHeart! We are doing AoPS Pre-algebra too, it's working great so far but of course we are not far in yet :) I was wondering if you thought even the AoPS Algebra needed something else with it for young kids, so you answered my question perfectly! :)

[regentrude]

My Uncle taught in a small, poorly funded, rural school. In 9th grade, you got him for general science. In 10th you had him for biology. In 11th, for chemistry. In 12th, for physics.

 

You teach where you are needed. Can you imagine being an 'expert' in all of those fields?

 

See, to me, coming from Germany, that is just plain weird. There, a teacher studies at the university the subjects he is going to teach, usually a combination of two subjects. For example, a teacher might be a physics and math teacher with the education to be an expert in these subjects - but would not be qualified, nor be expected, nor be allowed, to teach biology or French.

I am used to teachers who ARE experts in their fields. There are good and bad teachers, of course, but at least they are all educated to receive the necessary subject expertise.

[Crimson Wife]

See, to me, coming from Germany, that is just plain weird. There, a teacher studies at the university the subjects he is going to teach, usually a combination of two subjects. For example, a teacher might be a physics and math teacher with the education to be an expert in these subjects - but would not be qualified, nor be expected, nor be allowed, to teach biology or French.

I am used to teachers who ARE experts in their fields. There are good and bad teachers, of course, but at least they are all educated to receive the necessary subject expertise.

 

California has a general high school science teacher credential program that I have enough credits in the various college science classes to enter. I studied biopsychology/neuroscience, minored in human biology, and was pre-med my first two years. I worked as a departmental tutor for the biology core, so that subject I definitely feel I know well enough to teach.

 

But I don't feel confident in my mastery of chemistry or physics to be able to teach those subjects well at the high school level. I could teach something like Suchoki's Conceptual Chemistry or Hewitt's Conceptual Physics (and probably will to my kids in middle school) but true honors chem & physics I'll need to outsource.

 

It's scary to think that the state of CA considers me qualified enough to teach those subjects if I just took a few PC edu-babble courses ("The Multicultural Foundations of a Diverse Classroom" and so on) and did a couple semesters' worth of supervised student teaching :eek:

[angela in ohio]

See, to me, coming from Germany, that is just plain weird. There, a teacher studies at the university the subjects he is going to teach, usually a combination of two subjects. For example, a teacher might be a physics and math teacher with the education to be an expert in these subjects - but would not be qualified, nor be expected, nor be allowed, to teach biology or French.

I am used to teachers who ARE experts in their fields. There are good and bad teachers, of course, but at least they are all educated to receive the necessary subject expertise.

 

That's how it is in Michigan. A high school teacher gets basically a 4-year degree in their subject, plus their teaching classes. For example, I will be two courses shy of a regular math degree when I graduate to teach high school math.) So a teacher could be teaching Bio and Chem with their major/minor, but not all the sciences. Then they are required to continue taking classes while they teach. Unless they decided to go into admin (so they need to get that Master's,) those will also be in their field.

[angela in ohio]

My SIL is a teacher, and her B.Ed. concentration was Special Education. The first year out of college, she was a general Special Ed. teacher. Then her principal needed someone to teach general ed 7th grade math, so SIL was assigned the class. Fortunately, she inherited the family love of math (FIL is a retired high school math teacher, DH works in finance, etc.) but I can see where someone who didn't like the subject much could wind up teaching it.

 

NCLB took care of problems like that. :D Teachers must be "highly qualified" in the area that they teach, or the school loses funding.

 

That still doesn't guarantee that they can teach effectively (or that they can be fired for being ineffective teachers.)

Edited August 21, 2011 by angela in ohio

[In The Great White North]

But I don't feel confident in my mastery of chemistry or physics to be able to teach those subjects well at the high school level. I could teach something like Suchoki's Conceptual Chemistry or Hewitt's Conceptual Physics (and probably will to my kids in middle school) but true honors chem & physics I'll need to outsource.

In the Feb of AP Chemistry (ie 2nd year) the chemistry teacher at my high school was pink slipped (for the 8th year in a row.) He, unsurprisingly, was tired of not knowing if he would have a job come fall, so he quit and got a job in industry. The biology teacher finished the year. A lesson ahead of us all the way. Poor guy.

 

Same school, after German III, pink slipped the German teacher and told the FRENCH TEACHER to teach GERMAN IV!!! He had had 1 year of German 30 years earlier. But he had Teacher's certificate.

 

It would be hard for you to be less qualified.

 

BTW, this was Michigan.

[ktgrok]

My chemistry teacher was actually a physics teacher. He had no interest in chemistry. I learned virutally nothing in that class, other than how to cheat well. Oh, and lots and lots about fishing...that was all he talked about.

[melmichigan]

NCLB took care of problems like that. :D

 

NCLB, :rofl:, enough said.

[Matryoshka]

Same school, after German III, pink slipped the German teacher and told the FRENCH TEACHER to teach GERMAN IV!!! He had had 1 year of German 30 years earlier. But he had Teacher's certificate.

 

I took German III my freshman year of high school. That was the only level they offered - it was being phased out. The German teacher also decided to take a year's leave of absence. So, the 7 of us in that class got a completely non-German-speaking teacher who sat in the class and generally made sure we weren't goofing off. The German teacher came in about once a month to give us our assignments, which we then did by ourselves under "supervision" of the other guy.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

I have had pre-service teachers tell me they didn't need to know 'all that math' because they were 'just going to teach pre-algebra and algebra'.

 

I have had them tell me they were 'good at math' in high school and didn't understand 'all this advanced stuff' but were continuing with a math ed major because they didn't know what else to do.

 

But I really think the roots are further down, where we have pre-service elementary school teachers who are making comments such as 'I don't need to know advanced stuff like fractions, because I only want to teach kindergarten.'

 

Not to turn this into a teacher bashing thread, but I had similar conversations with people regarding teaching writing when I was getting my education master's degree. One of the last classes I took was on Teaching Composition. This wasn't a required class, but was one of the courses that counted as a methods class for people trying to certify for middle school or high school English.

 

I would say that about half the class struggled to understand the academic essays that were our reading assignments. Many struggled with writing about those essays. And a great number of them would talk in class about how they really didn't like to write. For the life of me, I could not understand why some of these people were getting ed degrees and planning on teaching classes on a subject that they did not enjoy and were not proficient in.

 

[NB: I was blessed with a string of English teachers that were very experienced, loved literature, loved writing and knew how to teach it. But I can't help wondering how many of these teachers have long since retired, and were not replaced with someone of similar calibre. And, FWIW, in my military days, I saw plenty of people who were out of their depth and needed to be cut loose. So it isn't something that is just about teachers.]

[Charles Wallace]

This alone would suffice to explain the abysmal state of math education.

Why on Earth do people like this decide to become math teachers???

Because they don't want to grade papers, and because coaches have to teach something.

[Blessedchaos]

Here advanced students do Algebra I in 6th grade. It is very, very common. My son did this and found it to be very easy, so the school moved him up a level to Advanced Math. When he finished Algebra I midyear they moved him to Probability and Statistics (high school course). Now in 7th he is in Geometry, which counts as high school credit also.

[Blessedchaos]

Neurologically, a very advanced student can handle a true algebra course by 7th grade, but they are the exception, not the norm; their brains are just not developmentally ready for it yet except in a handful of cases. The "Tiger Mother" parents pushing for this are doing their children no favors-- their kids not only fail the courses (or get watered down fake courses like the kids in many over-subscribed AP courses today) but they miss out on the chance to succeed by taking an appropriate math course that sets them up for actually doing very well in math in the future.

 

I have to disagree here somewhat. While many students perhaps would do better to wait for algebra, there are plenty of children who really are ready at a younger age. In my son's case it would have been a huge disservice to hold him back from Algebra in 6th grade due to his age. He had already completed Prealgebra and was bored in the regular Algebra I class before he was moved up. Granted, his test scores in math have always been above the 99th percentile, but there are many 6th/7th graders who really can handle it. To the school's credit, if a student is struggling, they would not hesitate to move them mid-year to a more appropriate level. I also didn't find the text to be watered down in the slightest; in fact he felt it contained many more concepts than our homeschool Algebra I curriculum did when he compared them side by side.

Edited October 22, 2011 by Blessedchaos