s/o "Suing" the high school

[Nakia]

I am just wondering about something. If teachers are pushing kids so much in elementary schools, which is what I see around here, why are they falling off the wagon in middle/high school? I teach with a K teacher in AWANA, and those kids are writing paragraphs right now. Real paragraphs. I am amazed at what my best friend's 2nd grader is doing. I don't get it. Why are they pushing so much just to let them go when they get to the upper grades? Is it all about teaching to the test? Or are they just pushing and not caring if the kids really learn? Is any of this even making sense? LOL! I am sleepy...just rambling...

[Mejane]

I think that a lot of it may have to do with the kids themselves. Littles usually love school. Teens... not so much. ;)

[twoforjoy]

I am just wondering about something. If teachers are pushing kids so much in elementary schools, which is what I see around here, why are they falling off the wagon in middle/high school? I teach with a K teacher in AWANA, and those kids are writing paragraphs right now. Real paragraphs. I am amazed at what my best friend's 2nd grader is doing. I don't get it. Why are they pushing so much just to let them go when they get to the upper grades? Is it all about teaching to the test? Or are they just pushing and not caring if the kids really learn? Is any of this even making sense? LOL! I am sleepy...just rambling...

 

I think we're burning kids out at a young age. I think we're pushing them past the basics so fast that they lack a real grounding in those basics, and so when they get to higher-level stuff, they quickly get lost.

 

I also think, though, that we are pushing kids much farther at the high school level. As I said on the other thread, it wasn't too long ago that most people didn't go to college. Today, we expect every child to leave high school college-ready. Honestly, I think many people just hit a wall. They get to a point where they simply cannot perform at a higher level, and that might have been fine a generation or two ago, but today we still expect them to go further. And then we call them failures when they don't, or blame the teachers, instead of just recognizing that maybe everybody isn't cut out to do precalculus, and that's okay.

 

I wouldn't say that there's no interest in kids learning, but I do think there's a lot more interest in having kids perform than learn, if that makes sense.

 

And I think part of the problem, too, is that when you have students do work that is developmentally way beyond them--like writing paragraphs in kindergarten--it requires a lot of very intensive support from the teacher. Students get used to that, and when they get older and are expected to work more independently, they fall apart completely. I see this all the time with my students, more and more each year, and many college instructors I know have expressed the same thing. The number of students who need to be handheld through every step of every assignment, and who simply cannot manage any part of an assignment on their own, seems to keep growing. I think that's partly because they've never learned to work independently, because working independently would require actually taking a child's capabilities into consideration, and not just wanting them to churn out a product (that probably requires a lot of help) that makes the teacher/school look good. Help is good, but students do need to be increasingly independent, and I think when they hit college (or high school, if independence is expected there) a lot of students have huge problems because they were never taught how to learn and how to tackle things on their own. If they are given the answers, they can parrot them back, and if they are handheld through every step of an assignment, they can do what they're told to do, but they don't know how to find answers on their own, how to understand things on their own, or how to tackle projects on their own. Again, they know how to perform, but not how to learn.

Edited May 12, 2011 by twoforjoy

[In the Rain]

Excellent question, Nakia. I was wondering the same thing. The elementary schools in my area seem to push kids hard, harder than I push my kids. I was surprised by poor outcomes mentioned in the other thread, and wondered at what point kids get behind. :confused:

 

I think we're burning kids out at a young age. I think we're pushing them past the basics so fast that they lack a real grounding in those basics, and so when they get to higher-level stuff, they quickly get lost.

...

And I think part of the problem, too, is that when you have students do work that is developmentally way beyond them--like writing paragraphs in kindergarten--it requires a lot of very intensive support from the teacher. Students get used to that, and when they get older and are expected to work more independently, they fall apart completely. I see this all the time with my students, more and more each year, and many college instructors I know have expressed the same thing. The number of students who need to be handheld through every step of every assignment, and who simply cannot manage any part of an assignment on their own, seems to keep growing. I think that's partly because they've never learned to work independently, because working independently would require actually taking a child's capabilities into consideration, and not just wanting them to churn out a product (that probably requires a lot of help) that makes the teacher/school look good. Help is good, but students do need to be increasingly independent, and I think when they hit college (or high school, if independence is expected there) a lot of students have huge problems because they were never taught how to learn and how to tackle things on their own. If they are given the answers, they can parrot them back, and if they are handheld through every step of an assignment, they can do what they're told to do, but they don't know how to find answers on their own, how to understand things on their own, or how to tackle projects on their own. Again, they know how to perform, but not how to learn.

 

This is an interesting point. I see a huge difference in what my 9yo dd can achieve with my help vs. independently.

[TeacherZee]

I think we're burning kids out at a young age. I think we're pushing them past the basics so fast that they lack a real grounding in those basics, and so when they get to higher-level stuff, they quickly get lost.

 

I also think, though, that we are pushing kids much farther at the high school level. As I said on the other thread, it wasn't too long ago that most people didn't go to college. Today, we expect every child to leave high school college-ready. Honestly, I think many people just hit a wall. They get to a point where they simply cannot perform at a higher level, and that might have been fine a generation or two ago, but today we still expect them to go further. And then we call them failures when they don't, or blame the teachers, instead of just recognizing that maybe everybody isn't cut out to do precalculus, and that's okay.

 

I wouldn't say that there's no interest in kids learning, but I do think there's a lot more interest in having kids perform than learn, if that makes sense.

 

And I think part of the problem, too, is that when you have students do work that is developmentally way beyond them--like writing paragraphs in kindergarten--it requires a lot of very intensive support from the teacher. Students get used to that, and when they get older and are expected to work more independently, they fall apart completely. I see this all the time with my students, more and more each year, and many college instructors I know have expressed the same thing. The number of students who need to be handheld through every step of every assignment, and who simply cannot manage any part of an assignment on their own, seems to keep growing. I think that's partly because they've never learned to work independently, because working independently would require actually taking a child's capabilities into consideration, and not just wanting them to churn out a product (that probably requires a lot of help) that makes the teacher/school look good. Help is good, but students do need to be increasingly independent, and I think when they hit college (or high school, if independence is expected there) a lot of students have huge problems because they were never taught how to learn and how to tackle things on their own. If they are given the answers, they can parrot them back, and if they are handheld through every step of an assignment, they can do what they're told to do, but they don't know how to find answers on their own, how to understand things on their own, or how to tackle projects on their own. Again, they know how to perform, but not how to learn.

 

:iagree: with everything written!

[jlmom]

my dh is a high school social studies teacher. He teaches a mix of AP classes, college-track classes and non-college track classes. Other than the AP classes he comes home completely frustrated from the others. There are kids who failed for the year half way through the year. It's not because they do poorly on tests or don't do their homework. He gives them classwork to do that is graded and they just won't do it. Short of physically holding their hand and forcing them to write, what else can you do? Apathy plays a huge part in it, I think.

 

Teaching to the test is also a large part. So much time is spent on the tests, pre-tests, post-tests, etc. Extra classes are given to those who aren't "proficient". It's crazy.

[Anne in CA]

My experience with this in Oregon is that most of the money spent on education in upper grades is administration, extra curricular things, and classes that aren't condusive to academics. My oldest attended public hs and my other children will not. Math instruction in our local high school is STRICTLY calculator tutoring. There is NO therory or practical application of algebra, geometry or precalculus. Also, Enlgish instruction is only worksheets, no text or overall plan as far as I was ever able to tell, unless you are in an honors or AP class. I could go on, but I was really underwhelmed by the quality of our local high school.

[Angel]

I think we're burning kids out at a young age. I think we're pushing them past the basics so fast that they lack a real grounding in those basics, and so when they get to higher-level stuff, they quickly get lost.

 

I also think, though, that we are pushing kids much farther at the high school level. As I said on the other thread, it wasn't too long ago that most people didn't go to college. Today, we expect every child to leave high school college-ready. Honestly, I think many people just hit a wall. They get to a point where they simply cannot perform at a higher level, and that might have been fine a generation or two ago, but today we still expect them to go further. And then we call them failures when they don't, or blame the teachers, instead of just recognizing that maybe everybody isn't cut out to do precalculus, and that's okay.

 

I wouldn't say that there's no interest in kids learning, but I do think there's a lot more interest in having kids perform than learn, if that makes sense.

 

And I think part of the problem, too, is that when you have students do work that is developmentally way beyond them--like writing paragraphs in kindergarten--it requires a lot of very intensive support from the teacher. Students get used to that, and when they get older and are expected to work more independently, they fall apart completely. I see this all the time with my students, more and more each year, and many college instructors I know have expressed the same thing. The number of students who need to be handheld through every step of every assignment, and who simply cannot manage any part of an assignment on their own, seems to keep growing. I think that's partly because they've never learned to work independently, because working independently would require actually taking a child's capabilities into consideration, and not just wanting them to churn out a product (that probably requires a lot of help) that makes the teacher/school look good. Help is good, but students do need to be increasingly independent, and I think when they hit college (or high school, if independence is expected there) a lot of students have huge problems because they were never taught how to learn and how to tackle things on their own. If they are given the answers, they can parrot them back, and if they are handheld through every step of an assignment, they can do what they're told to do, but they don't know how to find answers on their own, how to understand things on their own, or how to tackle projects on their own. Again, they know how to perform, but not how to learn.

 

:iagree: :iagree:

 

I could say more but it would just be a rant;)

[KrissiK]

I think we're burning kids out at a young age. I think we're pushing them past the basics so fast that they lack a real grounding in those basics, and so when they get to higher-level stuff, they quickly get lost.

 

Definitely agree. This is why I subscribe so whole-heartedly to the Classical model of the trivium. Build a foundation people! Build that foundation. It's like some houses they built on my street. The "tract" home builder throws houses up so fast, they don't even let the foundations dry and set and they're putting up the walls. So, after a while and the whole thing settles, the house gets all messed up. The custom home builder who built a house on our street let that foundation dry a good long time before he started the rest of the house. Sure, it wasn't as impressive and that house took a while to go up, but I know it's much better quality than the other house on our street.

[LizzyBee]

I am just wondering about something. If teachers are pushing kids so much in elementary schools, which is what I see around here, why are they falling off the wagon in middle/high school? I teach with a K teacher in AWANA, and those kids are writing paragraphs right now. Real paragraphs. I am amazed at what my best friend's 2nd grader is doing. I don't get it. Why are they pushing so much just to let them go when they get to the upper grades? Is it all about teaching to the test? Or are they just pushing and not caring if the kids really learn? Is any of this even making sense? LOL! I am sleepy...just rambling...

 

What I've seen around here is that the elementary schools are not teaching foundational skills. They are skipping that information because they are in a rush to get kids writing paragraphs and essays. Kids get to high school not knowing parts of speech, sentence types, or math facts. As a result, they are not able to develop more sophistication in their writing or math skills. So you end up with kids in 12th grade still writing the same way they were in 5th grade because they don't have the information needed to progress to a more sophisticated level.

[TeacherZee]

my dh is a high school social studies teacher. He teaches a mix of AP classes, college-track classes and non-college track classes. Other than the AP classes he comes home completely frustrated from the others. There are kids who failed for the year half way through the year. It's not because they do poorly on tests or don't do their homework. He gives them classwork to do that is graded and they just won't do it. Short of physically holding their hand and forcing them to write, what else can you do? Apathy plays a huge part in it, I think.

 

Teaching to the test is also a large part. So much time is spent on the tests, pre-tests, post-tests, etc. Extra classes are given to those who aren't "proficient". It's crazy.

 

I teach high school and currently only teach non-college track kids and some days I just want to cry. They just do not want to do the work. I have resorted to fill-in-the-blanks work sheets and most (but not all) at least do that.

[SailorMom]

I think we're burning kids out at a young age. I think we're pushing them past the basics so fast that they lack a real grounding in those basics, and so when they get to higher-level stuff, they quickly get lost.

 

I also think, though, that we are pushing kids much farther at the high school level. As I said on the other thread, it wasn't too long ago that most people didn't go to college. Today, we expect every child to leave high school college-ready. Honestly, I think many people just hit a wall. They get to a point where they simply cannot perform at a higher level, and that might have been fine a generation or two ago, but today we still expect them to go further. And then we call them failures when they don't, or blame the teachers, instead of just recognizing that maybe everybody isn't cut out to do precalculus, and that's okay.

 

I wouldn't say that there's no interest in kids learning, but I do think there's a lot more interest in having kids perform than learn, if that makes sense.

 

And I think part of the problem, too, is that when you have students do work that is developmentally way beyond them--like writing paragraphs in kindergarten--it requires a lot of very intensive support from the teacher. Students get used to that, and when they get older and are expected to work more independently, they fall apart completely. I see this all the time with my students, more and more each year, and many college instructors I know have expressed the same thing. The number of students who need to be handheld through every step of every assignment, and who simply cannot manage any part of an assignment on their own, seems to keep growing. I think that's partly because they've never learned to work independently, because working independently would require actually taking a child's capabilities into consideration, and not just wanting them to churn out a product (that probably requires a lot of help) that makes the teacher/school look good. Help is good, but students do need to be increasingly independent, and I think when they hit college (or high school, if independence is expected there) a lot of students have huge problems because they were never taught how to learn and how to tackle things on their own. If they are given the answers, they can parrot them back, and if they are handheld through every step of an assignment, they can do what they're told to do, but they don't know how to find answers on their own, how to understand things on their own, or how to tackle projects on their own. Again, they know how to perform, but not how to learn.

 

:iagree:

[myfunnybunch]

we're pushing them past the basics so fast that they lack a real grounding in those basics, and so when they get to higher-level stuff, they quickly get lost.

 

This.

 

And this....

 

it requires a lot of very intensive support from the teacher. Students get used to that, and when they get older and are expected to work more independently, they fall apart completely.

 

So many parents, when they hear that I homeschool, tell me about their middle-schoolers falling apart in middle school, for this very reason. It happened to our eldest dd. (So we brought her home, filled in the deficits, pushed her to work and learn independently and sent her back to high school to be an A student who was praised for her creativity and independence.)

 

Read this article, posted on the PHP Facebook page, about highschool English. It's shocking but not in a surprising way. We're pushing our young students and "engaging" our high school students. Seems awfully backward to me.

 

Cat

[Margaret in GA]

I teach high school and currently only teach non-college track kids and some days I just want to cry. They just do not want to do the work. I have resorted to fill-in-the-blanks work sheets and most (but not all) at least do that.

 

This validates the conclusion that I reached several years ago. I volunteered one year in our local ps's 1st grade reading class. I would help the kids that needed extra help with the resources the teacher provided me-- taking the kids into the hallway and drilling them with flash cards or reading one on one with them. I came to believe that these kids were smart, but they had been so accustomed to failing, that they didn't even try most days. It's like their brains would shut down because they knew they couldn't do it, so why bother. The earlier we try to teach kids to read, write, and do math before they are actually ready, the earlier we instill this failure mentality. We are not teaching kids to learn, we are teaching them to fail. It's sad.

 

Margaret

[myfunnybunch]

My experience with this in Oregon is that most of the money spent on education in upper grades is administration, extra curricular things, and classes that aren't condusive to academics. My oldest attended public hs and my other children will not. Math instruction in our local high school is STRICTLY calculator tutoring. There is NO therory or practical application of algebra, geometry or precalculus. Also, Enlgish instruction is only worksheets, no text or overall plan as far as I was ever able to tell, unless you are in an honors or AP class. I could go on, but I was really underwhelmed by the quality of our local high school.

 

I think this is more school than state specific. What's horrifying is that my dd's school, also in Oregon, requires freshmen to read and write at what *I* consider to be an appropriate level for high school freshmen. It's far more rigorous than anything I experienced in high school. The horrifying part is the number of parents who compain that it's too hard. (Same with the science teacher: "He expects students to do 'college-level' work." Really he tells students they will be more than prepared for a college level chemistry class after his class...as they should be.)

 

And quite frankly, the school overall isn't all that. It's in good shape for an Oregon high school, but...well, that's not really the gold standard, kwim? These particular teachers happen to good at what they do and unwilling to dumb it down to accommodate their students, but that seems to be rarer all the time.

 

Got a little OT, sorry. Spelling time, so no time to re-read. I hope this makes sense.

 

Cat

[TeacherZee]

This validates the conclusion that I reached several years ago. I volunteered one year in our local ps's 1st grade reading class. I would help the kids that needed extra help with the resources the teacher provided me-- taking the kids into the hallway and drilling them with flash cards or reading one on one with them. I came to believe that these kids were smart, but they had been so accustomed to failing, that they didn't even try most days. It's like their brains would shut down because they knew they couldn't do it, so why bother. The earlier we try to teach kids to read, write, and do math before they are actually ready, the earlier we instill this failure mentality. We are not teaching kids to learn, we are teaching them to fail. It's sad.

 

Margaret

 

:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:

 

Oh boy do I agree!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Most of my current students are fidgety boys. I think that they were asked to learn to read and write far far to early. They weren't developmentally ready and so they felt stupid. They also didn't fit into the school setting where you should sit still, raise your hand and do things in a certain order. All this lead to them internalizing that they were stupid and that is now their self image. They often tell me "you have to understand that we are [non-college track] students. We don't get this stuff". The thing is, I think many of them are super smart really. So sad.

[Ali in OR]

My cynical view is that there is a big push to get kids to 4th or 5th grade level as soon as possible...and then keep them there. Skills ARE pushed at younger and younger ages, but if you go to a middle school or school board meeting around here, you start to pick up on what THEIR agenda is. Their big goal is to "close the achievement gap". All of the extra resources (teacher time, study halls, etc.) are focused on getting students in the bottom quartile to improve. At a school board meeting I attended last year a middle school vice principal was giving a presentation on testing data from his school and what improvement the lowest quartile was showing. And what about the 50% of the student population who scored better than average? THEIR SCORES SHOWED NO GROWTH IN THE MIDDLE SCHOOL YEARS! They hope to address this in the future with "enrichment", but in reality there is no motivation for them to do so because their objective is to "close the achievement gap." It actually helps them to achieve their goal if their is no growth or improvement in the upper quartiles. I think the middle school years are probably the most important years to home school.

 

I know all of that still doesn't address why lower performing kids are lower performing, especially with all of the extra attention they get. Previous posters have had some good comments on that. I'm in the camp of "preserve and foster a love of learning". That is what will carry a student through middle school and high school. And I think it is pretty easy to damage or kill that love of learning by pushing skills too early so there are more "failures" and by drilling and drilling for standardized tests instead of actually learning interesting things about our world.

[Swirl]

I am just wondering about something. If teachers are pushing kids so much in elementary schools, which is what I see around here, why are they falling off the wagon in middle/high school? I teach with a K teacher in AWANA, and those kids are writing paragraphs right now. Real paragraphs. I am amazed at what my best friend's 2nd grader is doing. I don't get it. Why are they pushing so much just to let them go when they get to the upper grades? Is it all about teaching to the test? Or are they just pushing and not caring if the kids really learn? Is any of this even making sense? LOL! I am sleepy...just rambling...

 

Are you saying that kids in this same district that could once write real paragraphs in 2nd grade are now falling off the wagon in middle/high school?

 

Or are you talking about the middle/high schoolers from that other thread?

 

I'm curious to know how the middle/high schoolers are faring in this particular district. Have you worked with any children in the middle/high grades? What is their work like?

[angela in ohio]

What I've seen around here is that the elementary schools are not teaching foundational skills. They are skipping that information because they are in a rush to get kids writing paragraphs and essays. Kids get to high school not knowing parts of speech, sentence types, or math facts. As a result, they are not able to develop more sophistication in their writing or math skills. So you end up with kids in 12th grade still writing the same way they were in 5th grade because they don't have the information needed to progress to a more sophisticated level.

 

Bingo.

 

Don't teach phonics, so they are reading more quickly by memorizing, but then they get stuck at a certain level with no skills to go beyond.

 

Don't teach the "why" of math, just memorize and move on, and then they don't have the skills to handle high school math.

 

etc.

 

Also, my dd just finished reading Outliers, so we were discussing it. I was reminded that he talks about the devestating effects of summer vacations on below-average to average SES school children. And a U.S. culture that doesn't value education, hard-work, or perseverance. Those things can catch up with kiddos by high school.

 

And then you have the "theory of the moment" garbage in the teacher colleges, the state testing in an attempt to circumvent that, and so forth...

[Karis]

I am just wondering about something. If teachers are pushing kids so much in elementary schools, which is what I see around here, why are they falling off the wagon in middle/high school? I teach with a K teacher in AWANA, and those kids are writing paragraphs right now. Real paragraphs. I am amazed at what my best friend's 2nd grader is doing. I don't get it. Why are they pushing so much just to let them go when they get to the upper grades? Is it all about teaching to the test? Or are they just pushing and not caring if the kids really learn? Is any of this even making sense? LOL! I am sleepy...just rambling...

 

Forgive me. I didn't read all the posts. I'm on here for like... 2 minutes.

 

Has anyone heard/ seen some film called "Race to Nowhere?'

[Janie Grace]

Forgive me. I didn't read all the posts. I'm on here for like... 2 minutes.

 

Has anyone heard/ seen some film called "Race to Nowhere?'

 

Just saw the trailer for that. It looks really interesting.

[twoforjoy]

My cynical view is that there is a big push to get kids to 4th or 5th grade level as soon as possible...and then keep them there. Skills ARE pushed at younger and younger ages, but if you go to a middle school or school board meeting around here, you start to pick up on what THEIR agenda is. Their big goal is to "close the achievement gap". All of the extra resources (teacher time, study halls, etc.) are focused on getting students in the bottom quartile to improve.

 

Given the way schools are evaluated, though, this makes sense. Teacher and school effectiveness is measured by test scores, test scores take into account all students (as per NCLB), and so the students who are poor performers drag down the scores and reputation of teachers and entire schools. If a school wants to perform better in the way we currently measure performance, raising the test scores of the lowest performers is really the only way to go about it.

 

Sure, it hurts all the other students, but the school's funding and reputation is on the line.

 

I know all of that still doesn't address why lower performing kids are lower performing, especially with all of the extra attention they get.

 

Honestly, as awful as this is to say, after years of teaching, my only answer is "Because some people just aren't very smart." Or, to put it in a nicer way, "Some people lack an aptitude for and interest in academic pursuits." That's just how it is.

 

I think it's ridiculous to think that we're going to get everybody to be a great writer who can think critically about history and philosophy and can understand physics and chemistry and passes precalculus. It's no more realistic, IMO, than expecting everybody to be a good basketball player or ballet dancer or pianist. Thank God for my childhood dance teacher's sake that she was not expected to have all of her students leave her class ready to enter a professional dance company. I would have been her undoing. I simply had no aptitude for ballet, and I didn't love it enough to spend the inordinate amount of time and effort it would have taken for me to become even somewhat proficient.

 

Some people aren't very athletic; some people aren't very musical; and some people aren't very academic. It's just how it is. And I think it can be very, very difficult for people who ARE academically-inclined (which I think includes most teachers, whether homeschooling parents or teachers in traditional classrooms) to understand that. I know it can be very hard for me to understand. I get so frustrated sometimes with the students who just do NOT seem to get it, no matter how much I explain, no matter how much their classmates explain, no matter how many different explanations are tried, no matter how many questions I try to answer. But, at this point, I've come to accept that sometimes that's not because of a lack of effort on their part, or a lack of clarity on mine, but simply because the concept I'm trying to get across is beyond their capacity to understand. The way I feel when a mathematician friend tries to explain incredibly difficult and abstract concepts to me (something that is just beyond my understanding and probably beyond my capacity to understand given that I'm not a super-mathematically-inclined person) or when my husband tries to explain something about computer programming to me (which does not interest me in the slightest and so I'm not inclined to expend the mental energy I'd have to to make any sense out of it)? That's how these students feel when faced with concepts that are, to me, much more basic and much less challenging. They just DO NOT and CANNOT get it.

 

I don't know, maybe I'm too cynical, but I really think that's it. Of course, there's also the issue of inequality and how that impacts things, and the role of family involvement in a child's education, and those do impact scores and I do think we should address those issues because those students could be performing at higher levels, but I also think we need to accept that not everybody is a scholar, or even particularly smart. That doesn't diminish their worth as a person any more than somebody not being musical or athletic or artistic or funny diminishes their worth as a person, but it is something we need to acknowledge.

[Nakia]

Are you saying that kids in this same district that could once write real paragraphs in 2nd grade are now falling off the wagon in middle/high school?

 

Or are you talking about the middle/high schoolers from that other thread?

 

I'm curious to know how the middle/high schoolers are faring in this particular district. Have you worked with any children in the middle/high grades? What is their work like?

 

 

I didn't read the other thread all the way through. I have no idea what the elementary school in that particular district are doing.

 

I have not personally worked with kids in any grades because my kids are homeschooled, and I'm not a teacher. But I have friends with kids of all ages, in my district, and I see that the schools/teachers are pushing skills in elementary school that blow my mind. Kids in K are writing paragraphs and my friend's 2nd grader is doing fractions. I don't mean she is learning what 1/4 and 1/2 are. She is adding and subtracting fractions. She is not in any gifted program. That's why I wonder how these same kids are falling off the wagon in high school. My youngest brother is 23, so he graduated fairly recently, and he didn't even know how to read a ruler when he graduated. True story. He doesn't even know all the parts of speech. Yet, he made good grades all the way through school. So yes, kids, in my school district, are being forced to do things in elementary school that most kids that age are really not capable of, and then they are stalling in middle/high school. I just wonder why.

 

I appreciate all the responses. It has given me a lot to chew on. We have always talked about our girls possibly going to public high school...now, I'm not so sure.

[Perry]

 

Honestly, as awful as this is to say, after years of teaching, my only answer is "Because some people just aren't very smart." Or, to put it in a nicer way, "Some people lack an aptitude for and interest in academic pursuits." That's just how it is.

Clearly, not everyone is college material. There is a distribution of intelligence and aptitude, and many people aren't ever going to be academically successful. However, most kids can learn to read. Most kids can learn basic math.

 

According to Dr. Reid Lyon,

 

Instructional Casualties:

Dr. Reid Lyon: Absolutely. Absolutely. The fact is that, oh how do I want to say this? I’ll just be blunt. When we look at the kids who are having a tough time learning to read and we went through the statistics, thirty-eight percent nationally, disaggregate that, seventy percent of kids from poverty and so forth hit the wall. Ninety-five percent of those kids are instructional casualties. About five to six percent of those kids have what we call dyslexia or learning disabilities in reading. Ninety-five percent of the kids hitting the wall in learning to read are what we call NBT: Never Been Taught. They’ve probably been with teachers where the heart was in the right place, they’ve been with teachers who wanted the best for the kids, but they have been with teachers who cannot answer the questions: 1) What goes into reading, what does it take? 2) Why do some kids have difficulty? 3) How can we identify kids early and prevent it? 4) How can we remediate it?

The same is true with math. Some kids will clearly never be able to do calculus, but it is just inexcusable that even the most intelligent kids aren't being taught. From an old post of mine:

EDM and TERC Investigations are why I started homeschooling. Loathe. Them.

 

My dd went back to ps this year. She takes Geometry with a small class of 8th graders who are the highest achieving math students in the school. Most of them are in the talented and gifted program.

Last month the teacher gave them a fraction assessment.

 

It was a 32 question test over the 4 basic operations. An example: 3/5 +2/5=?

My dd found it very simple and finished it in 7 minutes. None of the other kids finished in the allotted 30 minutes, and they all found it very difficult.

 

 

She frequently helps her classmates with their algebra and T-math. She is astounded by what they don't know and haven't been taught. They are constantly using convoluted, complicated methods to solve basic, straightforward problems. When she shows them how she does it, they are shocked and say "well that makes sense. Why didn't they just teach us that!"

 

These are bright, motivated kids. They haven't been taught math. It is inexcusable that the best 8th grade math students can't do simple fractions.

 

 

 

We used Singapore through 6B, then Chalkdust Prealgebra and Foerster's Algebra 1. While she likes ps in general, she has told me she will never take another ps math class and wants to dual enroll from now on and do math at home. :hurray:

 

There's great information about the failure to teach reading at Children of the Code.

 

Louisa Moats

[Perry]

That's why I wonder how these same kids are falling off the wagon in high school. My youngest brother is 23, so he graduated fairly recently, and he didn't even know how to read a ruler when he graduated.

But was he writing paragraphs and doing fractions in K? I'm wondering if this is a recent development, and how these kids as a cohort will do in high school.

 

My kids were writing a lot in elementary school (ps), but there was virtually no instruction and the output was horrible. The teachers didn't care what they wrote, as long as there were words on the paper. I know my kids wouldn't have been able to write a coherent paragraph without tons of help.

[twoforjoy]

Clearly, not everyone is college material. There is a distribution of intelligence and aptitude, and many people aren't ever going to be academically successful. However, most kids can learn to read. Most kids can learn basic math.

 

And most kids are learning those things.

 

I get a lot of really bad students, but none are illiterate. They all can read with a basic degree of understanding. I would be willing to bet that nearly all of them can read with more proficiency than the average person a few generations ago. But, today we expect more from them. We'd consider them failures for only being able to read at a basic level, whereas a hundred years ago, that would have been an educational success.

 

And, most people can do basic math, if by basic math we mean simple calculations, with a pencil and paper if necessary. But, again, that's not enough. We think students who can't manage algebra are failures. That's a new expectation.

 

I really don't think enough can be said about rising educational expectations. Yes, it's totally not "homeschooling correct" to say it, but educational standards are rising, and have been for a long time. I have to admit, I do laugh when I read these accounts of what education was like back when "everybody" was classically educated, and the examples used are people like Cotton Mather or John Adams. These were the elite of society! You cannot take the educational level of the most elite in society two or three hundred years ago and compare it to the education that your average person today receives. We can certainly compare elites to elites--how does the education that John Adams got compare to the education that, say, the Bush twins or the Obama girls are getting?--or we can compare averages to averages--how does the average public school today compare to the education received by the average person in 1800? But you can't compare apples to oranges.

 

For the average person, we have absolutely seen a rising floor of literacy. Literacy has gone from being defined as simply being able to sign one's name, to being able to read at what would now be considered a third- or fourth-grade level, all the way up to today, where it's being able to read at a tenth-grade level. So to imagine 1) that most kids today aren't learning to read or do basic math and 2) that somehow in the past the average person was more proficient at those things than your average person today is, from everything I've read about education and literacy, to misinterpret things.

 

Yes, we absolutely could do a better job of teaching basic skills. But that would require accepting that, for some students, it may indeed take 10 or even 12 years of schooling to acquire those basic skills, and that doesn't mean they or the educational system failed. As long as we can't accept that, we'll see students rushed through the basics so that more time can be spent trying to teach the higher-level stuff we think equals a successful education.

Edited May 12, 2011 by twoforjoy

[Nakia]

But was he writing paragraphs and doing fractions in K? I'm wondering if this is a recent development, and how these kids as a cohort will do in high school.

 

My kids were writing a lot in elementary school (ps), but there was virtually no instruction and the output was horrible. The teachers didn't care what they wrote, as long as there were words on the paper. I know my kids wouldn't have been able to write a coherent paragraph without tons of help.

 

 

Sorry, that was a dumb example. I'm really not quite sure how to express myself. I am kind of out of it today. Been through a lot lately. Sorry about that.

[Daisy]

I agree with everything that has been previously stated.

 

I"ll add that in schools around here they are dealing with major behavioral problems.

 

Drugs, pregnancy, truancy, bullying, and gangs in the middle schools and high schools.

 

In elementary you have parents who are doing all the above. My husband has first graders who are not emotionally stable enough to learn. One little girl who wasn't concentrating on her class assignment recently told my husband, "A man called our house last night and told my Daddy he was going to stab him to death if he doesn't pay back his money." Nearly 35% of his class has a parent in jail on drug charges.

 

By high school they are just living their parent's lives.

 

So yeah, honestly most teachers around here are just hoping to cram as much education into these kids as they can before they wind up pregnant at 13yrs old.

[Perry]

And most kids are learning those things.

I agree that many kids that go to college should not be there.

 

I do not agree that that is the entire problem. There are many, many kids who are capable of great academic success that are being failed by the schools. Many of the kids who are unable to do algebra are capable, but fail because they have such a terrible background in the fundamentals.

 

My daughter, a sophomore in public high school, has not yet written a single paper. Her final project in English last semester involved writing a rap song and performing it with a group. She's done pretty posters and decorated paper bags, made videos, and done a few Power Point presentations. What she hasn't done is analyzed a work of literature, written a paper, or done original research. She has plenty of potential, and is certainly college material. She is not being challenged. Expectations are ridiculously low. This is in one of the most affluent and prestigious school districts in the state. Highly educated parents, very low rate of free and reduced lunch.

 

We will supplement this summer, as usual.

 

I should mention that her science classes have been very good.

Edited May 12, 2011 by Perry

[Perry]

Sorry, that was a dumb example. I'm really not quite sure how to express myself. I am kind of out of it today. Been through a lot lately. Sorry about that.

Oh, I'm not trying to argue. :)

 

Just wondering if things have changed between his elementary schooling and now.

[Mejane]

Expectations are ridiculously low. This is in one of the most affluent and prestigious school districts in the state.

 

Sounds familiar. Dd's friend, a senior at one of the top-ranked high schools in CT, had to write a paper for English class. The topic? "What's in my backpack and what it says about me." :glare: To make matters worse, dd said her paper was practically unreadable. Sad, sad, sad.

[....]

Bingo.

 

Don't teach phonics, so they are reading more quickly by memorizing, but then they get stuck at a certain level with no skills to go beyond.

 

Don't teach the "why" of math, just memorize and move on, and then they don't have the skills to handle high school math.

 

etc.

 

Also, my dd just finished reading Outliers, so we were discussing it. I was reminded that he talks about the devestating effects of summer vacations on below-average to average SES school children. And a U.S. culture that doesn't value education, hard-work, or perseverance. Those things can catch up with kiddos by high school.

 

And then you have the "theory of the moment" garbage in the teacher colleges, the state testing in an attempt to circumvent that, and so forth...

 

:iagree: "Impressive-looking" academics are pushed too early and they're not given enough time to play/explore.

 

Our neighbor's kid (4th grade) told me how they were studying algebra in math now. That might sound impressive on the syllabus or to the parents, but I've seen that kid's math homework and she's at about the same level as my 2nd grader.

 

I think there might be a lot of hot air blowing around, too. :glare:

[Nakia]

Oh, I'm not trying to argue. :)

 

Just wondering if things have changed between his elementary schooling and now.

 

I know you aren't arguing, and you brought up a valid question!

[mom2scouts]

What I've seen around here is that the elementary schools are not teaching foundational skills. They are skipping that information because they are in a rush to get kids writing paragraphs and essays. Kids get to high school not knowing parts of speech, sentence types, or math facts. As a result, they are not able to develop more sophistication in their writing or math skills. So you end up with kids in 12th grade still writing the same way they were in 5th grade because they don't have the information needed to progress to a more sophisticated level.

 

:iagree:My son was in public school last year for first grade. They were required to write whole page journals daily, but they were never taught how to write a good paragraph or even corrected on spelling or sentence structure. Schools seem to think they'll learn how to write just by writing. My son, like many young boys, wasn't ready for that much writing and it caused major issues with his teacher and his opinion of school. He is now extremely writing resistant and it has affected what I've been able to do with him this year.

[LostSurprise]

Kindergartners here to copying and dictation, but there's no real paragraph writing until first grade.

 

Regarding teenagers, I taught high school for a few years and my opinion is that:

 

*we have a culture that doesn't admire intellectuals or intellectual pursuits

* teen culture and media culture REALLY doesn't respect academics

*peers are important to teens so if your friends aren't into academics you don't want to be a 'show off'

*teens have a lot of new freedoms and activities (sports, dating, jobs). Many teens do not have time for school too.

*most teens have never had someone sit down with them and help them figure out a life plan

*most curriculums/teachers do not show how the lessons relate to real life

*many teens have no idea about what they want to do--the future is so far away

 

Basically, parents back off in the early teen years and give teens more freedom. Life goes on as usual unless someone really messes up. Most parents don't know how to slowly give teens more independence. Either they hold on too long or give it all too early. It's like there's no middle ground. Someone has to limit the activities and say no, AND be the mentor who helps them verbalize their dreams and help them plan the way to get there (and the fall back plan). Lots of uncomfortable conversations, lots of apologizing, lots of laughing.

 

I know too many parents of 'good' kids who are happy enough to just let things ride and too many parents of 'bad' kids who just don't want to deal with it anymore. It takes as much energy to deal with a teen as it does a young child, we just don't want it to be that way.

[....]

Kindergartners here to copying and dictation, but there's no real paragraph writing until first grade.

 

Regarding teenagers, I taught high school for a few years and my opinion is that:

 

*we have a culture that doesn't admire intellectuals or intellectual pursuits

* teen culture and media culture REALLY doesn't respect academics

*peers are important to teens so if your friends aren't into academics you don't want to be a 'show off'

*teens have a lot of new freedoms and activities (sports, dating, jobs). Many teens do not have time for school too.

*most teens have never had someone sit down with them and help them figure out a life plan

*most curriculums/teachers do not show how the lessons relate to real life

*many teens have no idea about what they want to do--the future is so far away

 

Basically, parents back off in the early teen years and give teens more freedom. Life goes on as usual unless someone really messes up. Most parents don't know how to slowly give teens more independence. Either they hold on too long or give it all too early. It's like there's no middle ground. Someone has to limit the activities and say no, AND be the mentor who helps them verbalize their dreams and help them plan the way to get there (and the fall back plan). Lots of uncomfortable conversations, lots of apologizing, lots of laughing.

 

I know too many parents of 'good' kids who are happy enough to just let things ride and too many parents of 'bad' kids who just don't want to deal with it anymore. It takes as much energy to deal with a teen as it does a young child, we just don't want it to be that way.

 

Good post!

[justamouse]

I think we push, push, push and by the time they have to make the real push, the Big Climb, they're totally burned out.

[scrapbabe]

I think schools are filling the heads of the elementary age children with tons of information. At this age they are curious and mostly happy to please. But we haven't really taught them how to learn or to enjoy learning. So when they get older and they care more about pleasing their friends than the adults in their life, they have no motive to study and do well, and without all the hand holding that they got in elementary school, they don't know how to study and apply themselves. I also think there's such a huge focus in high school on being on the football team, or being a cheerleader, and those things bring status and recognition when being a good student doesn't.

 

In all honesty most of us didn't really learn how to learn. We just want to know enough to get by. I see myself do this all the time. I've really had to struggle to get myself to want to stretch myself and learn something new. I took an online class last semester that made me realize how hard learning really is for me... I don't enjoy it. If we don't teach our children at a young age to value learning simply for the rewards of knowing, then they will fall into the same trap. The important thing is not to tell them what to think, but how to think. The schools (and probably most of us who went to public school) simply aren't teaching our children to think.

[MrsMe]

Exactly! Early burnout! A lot of these kids are in some school getting this stuff pushed down their throat starting at 7 weeks called Day Care! Remember when kids went to nursery school rarely and most started K, some not even K? We learned to read in 1st.

 

Flunking? So what, we'll push you through anyway.

 

Plus...the basics are run through like a race. Hurry up and grab your calculator! If you don't use it, you don't remember it.

 

Name your reason.

[justamouse]

And I also think that they have to show a reason for preschool and K. It's not 'just daycare' and parents expect a return on their monetary investment, you know?

[Aubrey]

If you want to really improve/revamp the system, you start w/ the youngest grades. You can't change expectations & just lay it on 11th graders.

 

So if the K class meets these new expectations in 2001, then K & 1st should be able to meet them in '02. It's a trickle-up effect.

 

Does it work? I have no idea. I had the 11th graders at the top from the old system. :lol: But this is what they told us...

[LynnG in Arizona]

The whole writing paragraphs in K blows my mind. I honestly cannot fathom what that looks like. Neither one of my kids could/can do that and they are no sluffs with their abilities. Supposedly by 3rd grade here a large number of students are performing well below the expectations, yet they have supposedly been writing paragraphs since K? Yeah right. I really just don't believe it is as amazing as it sounds.

 

I agree completely! I hear a consistent story from neighborhood parents about their K'ers pushed seemingly beyond what is even developmentally appropriate (imo). Fluent reading by Christmas of the kindergarten year and writing true paragraphs by early spring. Yet somewhere by mid or late elementary school it all falls apart. I honestly don"t get it. Or have the expectations only recently been raised to overly ambitious levels?

 

I am sincerely puzzled.

[Rosie_0801]

If you want to really improve/revamp the system, you start w/ the youngest grades. You can't change expectations & just lay it on 11th graders.

 

So if the K class meets these new expectations in 2001, then K & 1st should be able to meet them in '02. It's a trickle-up effect.

 

Does it work? I have no idea. I had the 11th graders at the top from the old system. :lol: But this is what they told us...

 

It doesn't really work, no, because it's not the K grades you need to start with, but the teachers. They already have a day job that carries over into their personal lives, so there's no use telling them to study grammar and composition in their spare time. Isn't going to happen even if they agree in principle.

 

Rosie

[lionfamily1999]

It doesn't really work, no, because it's not the K grades you need to start with, but the teachers. They already have a day job that carries over into their personal lives, so there's no use telling them to study grammar and composition in their spare time. Isn't going to happen even if they agree in principle.

 

Rosie

Excellent point!

 

How much change can the students themselves effect by being better prepared? Sure, they're the 'new and improved version,' but if they're going to the same high school teachers then it's doubtful those teachers, after years of doing damage control, are going to be up to the task.

 

I say, send them all home :lol: Actually, no, I say... goodnight zzzzzz it's too late for me to hop on a platform.

[Happy2BaMom]

*we have a culture that doesn't admire intellectuals or intellectual pursuits

* teen culture and media culture REALLY doesn't respect academics

*peers are important to teens so if your friends aren't into academics you don't want to be a 'show off'

 

I think this is a HUGE factor, and usually one that is not acknowledged by armchair critics of education (whatever their background). So many kids today want to be on American Idol or So You Think You Can Dance or they want to be Miley Cyrus (or whomever is hot right now).

 

I remember reading once that when Bill Gates went to China that he was the type of celebrity there that Britney Spears was (this was obviously several years ago) in America. He had throngs of young people turning out to see him, get his autograph, listen to him speak, etc.

 

A country's idols will tell you a lot about where they're headed. Unfortunately, our idols are not too impressive (IMHO).

[Perry]

*we have a culture that doesn't admire intellectuals or intellectual pursuits

* teen culture and media culture REALLY doesn't respect academics

*peers are important to teens so if your friends aren't into academics you don't want to be a 'show off'

I think this is a HUGE factor, and usually one that is not acknowledged by armchair critics of education (whatever their background).

I agree that these are important factors. Unfortunately, schools and teachers can't do anything about them. While it's fine to point those things out, it doesn't fix anything. OTOH, there are plenty of things they DO have control over - increasing expectations, improving standards, using evidence based rather than ideological instructional approaches. I don't see those things happening. Not here anyway.

[Rosie_0801]

I agree that these are important factors. Unfortunately, schools and teachers can't do anything about them. While it's fine to point those things out, it doesn't fix anything. OTOH, there are plenty of things they DO have control over - increasing expectations, improving standards, using evidence based rather than ideological instructional approaches. I don't see those things happening. Not here anyway.

 

Teachers don't always have control over those things. Schools don't always have control over those things. For those sorts of things to be implemented, you need the schools and a large, vocal group of parents to agree. A friend of mine didn't get a job at a well regarded private school because he said he believed children needed to be challenged. The principal said something along the lines of the parents not liking that. I've no idea how you get everyone onto the same page...

 

I think we need people to become teachers because they like education, not just because they like kids.

 

Rosie

[Perry]

Teachers don't always have control over those things. Schools don't always have control over those things. For those sorts of things to be implemented, you need the schools and a large, vocal group of parents to agree.

No individual teacher is going to change the system. But policy is made by educators. Curriculum committees, made up of teachers, choose curricula. At least that's how it works here. Parents have complained bitterly, mainly about the math curricula, but it makes no difference. The district does whatever it wants.

[amsunshine]

I agree that these are important factors. Unfortunately, schools and teachers can't do anything about them. While it's fine to point those things out, it doesn't fix anything. OTOH, there are plenty of things they DO have control over - increasing expectations, improving standards, using evidence based rather than ideological instructional approaches. I don't see those things happening. Not here anyway.

 

I have no idea if our limited experience in public schools was the norm, but if it was, I disagree that schools can't do anything about emphasizing the importance of academics.

 

I pulled my dds out of ps when they were in K and 1st. One of the things we observed while we were there was a constant effort to award students for non-academic "achievements" and to downplay academics. Sometimes, I felt like I was in an alternate universe...it was almost as if people felt hostile toward acknowledging academic achievement, yet there were regular awards ceremonies for students (and a push to make sure every student in class got one of these awards at least once) for things like "being a good helper", or the like.

 

I'm not saying I don't think these other things are important to recognize and acknowledge...but there was no award for "best speller" of the month, or anything similar.

 

Anyway, to make a long story short, if elementary schools today are, in general, anything like ours was/is (and ours is in a good district with a good reputation...a "10" school on the GreatSchools list)....maybe the hostility to recognizing/rewarding academic achievement is something that could be changed.

[ElizabethB]

Bingo.

 

Don't teach phonics, so they are reading more quickly by memorizing, but then they get stuck at a certain level with no skills to go beyond.

 

Don't teach the "why" of math, just memorize and move on, and then they don't have the skills to handle high school math.

 

etc.

 

Also, my dd just finished reading Outliers, so we were discussing it. I was reminded that he talks about the devestating effects of summer vacations on below-average to average SES school children. And a U.S. culture that doesn't value education, hard-work, or perseverance. Those things can catch up with kiddos by high school.

 

And then you have the "theory of the moment" garbage in the teacher colleges, the state testing in an attempt to circumvent that, and so forth...

 

:iagree:

 

They aren't really learning the 3Rs, they are faking the 3Rs and this shows up later. In reading, when it shows up, it's called the "4th grade slump." (And was unknown before sight word teaching, there didn't used to be a 4th grade slump, the phrase originated after the effects of Whole Language began. It was first called the "fourth-grade hump" and was even mentioned by Dolch, creator of the Dolch sight words.) The math catches up sometime around middle school when you have to be able to think about the math a bit more. It also shows up a bit earlier in word problems, I've tutored students whose underlying math weakness became apparent in 3rd or 4th grade word problems.

Edited May 13, 2011 by ElizabethB