Have you seen this? I find it disturbing

[delaney]

http://chronicle.com/blogs/headcount/tying-high-school-diplomas-to-college-applications/28161?sid=at&utm_source=at&utm_medium=en

 

I get the reasoning behind it but fail to see why they would withhold a diploma that someone earned.

[Mrs Mungo]

http://chronicle.com/blogs/headcount/tying-high-school-diplomas-to-college-applications/28161?sid=at&utm_source=at&utm_medium=en

 

I get the reasoning behind it but fail to see why they would withhold a diploma that someone earned.

 

Woah!!

 

by submitting an enlistment application to the military

 

This is *quite* a bit different than sending in a college or apprenticeship program.

[KnitWit]

I can't even imagine how this would help anyone.

 

How stupid.

[Dawn in OH]

Don't they have anything better to do?

 

If the student earned the diploma, they deserve to receive the diploma, no strings attached. You work 13 years for that little piece of paper. You take the tests, you jump through the hoops. I don't think any extra hoops are necessary.

[Harriet Vane]

Intrusive and overbearing and totally inappropriate.

[Jenny in Florida]

No one is saying the graduate has to join the military or go to college or even get a job.

 

"According to the bill, students could satisfy the proposed graduation requirement in one of three ways: by applying to a postsecondary institution, by submitting an enlistment application to the military, or by attending an orientation session for an apprenticeship or training program."

 

They are just supposed to explore the options.

[Joker]

No one is saying the graduate has to join the military or go to college or even get a job.

 

"According to the bill, students could satisfy the proposed graduation requirement in one of three ways: by applying to a postsecondary institution, by submitting an enlistment application to the military, or by attending an orientation session for an apprenticeship or training program."

 

They are just supposed to explore the options.

 

I think "exploring" the options would be to just tour colleges or speak to a recruiter. They are requiring applications. Why? Seems very ridiculous to me.

[Tammyla]

Yes, it's disturbing to say the least.

 

http://chronicle.com/blogs/headcount/tying-high-school-diplomas-to-college-applications/28161?sid=at&utm_source=at&utm_medium=en

 

I get the reasoning behind it but fail to see why they would withhold a diploma that someone earned.

[CatMomof3]

Don't college applications cost money??? Will the government be helping with that???

[Jenny in Florida]

I think "exploring" the options would be to just tour colleges or speak to a recruiter. They are requiring applications. Why? Seems very ridiculous to me.

 

There are three ways to meet the requirement:

 

1. Submit one application to any post-secondary institution.

2. Apply to enlist in the military.

3. Attend an orientation session for something vocational.

 

The bill does NOT require applications.

 

The way I see it, we're talking about 30 minutes to apply to the local community college or one evening of sitting through a boring orientation at the local trade school. It's probably a waste of time for some students, but others might find they get interested in one of these options that they might not otherwise have taken the time to explore.

 

It's just career education. It honestly doesn't seem terribly ominous to me.

[Teachaheart]

Intrusive and overbearing and totally inappropriate.

 

:iagree: Plus it really limits the options in some ways as it does not seem to allow for those who would take a gap year, spend a year on the mission field, or directly enter the work force.

 

Don't most colleges still have application fees? So students and their families would have to spend extra money applying to colleges to satisfy this requirement even though some of them might not be applying because they really want to go to college. Then colleges have to spend time and money processing applications from people who really have no intention of enrolling. I imagine the same things would be true with regard to trade schools and apprenticeships.

[FaithManor]

Too much control!

 

On top of which, I know unemployed families in this area that can't come up with the $50.00 for a college AP. We have one boy in our church that had to delay college applications for a year because of his dad's unemployment. They could barely purchase enough groceries for the family, college Aps just weren't happening. He didn't even get to take his ACT his senior year and had to go with his score from sophomore year because his folks couldn't afford to pay for that either.

 

Seriously, it's getting so elitist out there. One district in our county will not allow seniors to participate in graduation ceremonies unless they purchase the "graduation package"...crappy cap and gown, 20 invitations, presentation folder, cord if graduating with honors, and one 8 x10 picture...total cost of the package with or without cords, $500.00. If you can't afford it or can but feel the cost is outrageous, they'll mail you your diploma printed on crappy paper! I have issues......major issues.....

 

The diploma was earned and quite frankly, the school is done. It does not have the right to attempt to control the future of the student/adult.

 

Faith

[Jenny in Florida]

:iagree: Plus it really limits the options in some ways as it does not seem to allow for those who would take a gap year, spend a year on the mission field, or directly enter the work force.

 

Don't most colleges still have application fees? So students and their families would have to spend extra money applying to colleges to satisfy this requirement even though some of them might not be applying because they really want to go to college. Then colleges have to spend time and money processing applications from people who really have no intention of enrolling. I imagine the same things would be true with regard to trade schools and apprenticeships.

 

Again, there are three options, not just submitting a college application. And it does not require actually following through on any of the options immediately or ever.

 

They don't even have to apply to the trade school, just attend an orientation session.

[Murphy101]

What a stupid waste of legislative time/money over something that has nothing to do with whether they earned their diploma or not.

[Jenny in Florida]

On top of which, I know unemployed families in this area that can't come up with the $50.00 for a college AP.

 

It is my understanding that it is possible to have the application fees waived if a family is not financially able to pay it.

 

From http://www.collegeboard.com/student/apply/the-application/922.html :

 

"If you received a fee waiver for the SAT®, you may be eligible for application fee waivers from some colleges. See the link below for a list of colleges that do not charge an application fee to, or may consider waiving the fee for, students who have received an SAT Program fee waiver.

Directory of Colleges Cooperating with the SAT Program Fee-Waiver Service (.pdf/1.54MB). Requires Adobe Reader (latest version recommended).

Learn more about the SAT Program Fee-Waiver Service.

Check with your counselor to see if there are other circumstances that might lead to colleges waiving your application fees. For example, you may qualify if you are eligible for free or reduced-fee lunches, or if your family’s annual income is below a certain amount."

[Gooblink]

What a stupid waste of legislative time/money over something that has nothing to do with whether they earned their diploma or not.

 

:iagree: Not to mention time and money wasted by families, filling out applications and sitting through interviews, just to get the diploma their child has rightfully earned.

 

Unbelievable overstepping of authority.

[bookfiend]

There are three ways to meet the requirement:

 

1. Submit one application to any post-secondary institution.

2. Apply to enlist in the military.

3. Attend an orientation session for something vocational.

 

The bill does NOT require applications.

 

The way I see it, we're talking about 30 minutes to apply to the local community college or one evening of sitting through a boring orientation at the local trade school. It's probably a waste of time for some students, but others might find they get interested in one of these options that they might not otherwise have taken the time to explore.

 

It's just career education. It honestly doesn't seem terribly ominous to me.

 

It seems terribly wasteful to me. Wasteful of everyone's time, both the student who doesn't want to pursue further education and the person who has to "review" the options with him. Who is compensating the admissions officer, recruitment personnel and vocational school for orienting THOUSANDS who now need to check off another box?

[Mrs Mungo]

There are three ways to meet the requirement:

 

1. Submit one application to any post-secondary institution.

2. Apply to enlist in the military.

3. Attend an orientation session for something vocational.

 

The bill does NOT require applications.

 

The way I see it, we're talking about 30 minutes to apply to the local community college or one evening of sitting through a boring orientation at the local trade school. It's probably a waste of time for some students, but others might find they get interested in one of these options that they might not otherwise have taken the time to explore.

 

It's just career education. It honestly doesn't seem terribly ominous to me.

 

I don't think it's "ominous" either. But, I think an application to enlist in the military being among the other options is a little misleading as far what it means to fill out an application to enlist in the military. It's not the same as applying to a college where you never intend to enroll. Students may not realize the implications.

[Teachaheart]

Again, there are three options, not just submitting a college application. And it does not require actually following through on any of the options immediately or ever.

 

They don't even have to apply to the trade school, just attend an orientation session.

 

 

The point is, it is not the school's place to require this of students in order to graduate. What a student intends to do upon receiving his diploma is not the school's business. If a student meets or exceeds all of the academic requirements for a high school diploma, he should receive the diploma, no strings attached.

 

It is a waste of time and money on the parts of the students and their families, the colleges and trade schools, and the military to complete and process applications or run orientation sessions for people who have absolutely no intention of enrolling or enlisting.

[JustGin]

Arrghh...we have IDIOTS at the helm here in Oregon :glare:

[delaney]

What bothers me the most is the fact that they are putting their noses in where they don't belong. High School ends with the diploma-period. What you do after you get it is your business. How can they withhold it? I see the good intentions of getting kids to think more seriously about their future but to withhold a diploma is crap. You either earn it or you don't.

[Murphy101]

What bothers me the most is the fact that they are putting their noses in where they don't belong. High School ends with the diploma-period. What you do after you get it is your business. How can they withhold it? I see the good intentions of getting kids to think more seriously about their future but to withhold a diploma is crap. You either earn it or you don't.

 

Yep.

 

Honestly it sounds like a backdoor way to force taxpayers to funnel free money to the college and trade schools. They will get thousands of application fees for nothing that they probably otherwise wouldn't.:glare:

[KnitWit]

I don't think it's ominous. I think it will be a waste of a lot of people's time. Why have people put in the position of dealing with kids who are just *going through the motions* to get their diploma? No matter WHICH option they are working with, they need to be spending their time and efforts on the kids who are seriously interested and might actually follow through.

 

Just my opinion. :)

[kchara]

What bothers me the most is the fact that they are putting their noses in where they don't belong. High School ends with the diploma-period. What you do after you get it is your business. How can they withhold it? I see the good intentions of getting kids to think more seriously about their future but to withhold a diploma is crap. You either earn it or you don't.

 

 

:iagree: Yet again, the state is overstepping its bounds. What a student does after graduation has no bearing on whether or not they earned the diploma, and is none of the state's business.

[Mimm]

So they're going to flood the nearest school with the lowest application fee with applications from people who aren't interested in attending. So then the schools that are getting the most of these applications are going to hike their application fees. To deal with the overload in applications, they're going to be sloppier about rejecting people, and making silly requirements in a simple effort to cut back on the sheer number of applications they have to process. This will hurt people who actually do want to attend.

[KnitWit]

So they're going to flood the nearest school with the lowest application fee with applications from people who aren't interested in attending. So then the schools that are getting the most of these applications are going to hike their application fees. To deal with the overload in applications, they're going to be sloppier about rejecting people, and making silly requirements in a simple effort to cut back on the sheer number of applications they have to process. This will hurt people who actually do want to attend.

 

Yep...and mess with numbers as far as enrollment/retention/scores/etc.

 

I bet the schools will protest. I would.

[OLG]

Surely intelligent people can think of a better way to motivate high schoolers to consider their futures! This strategy is going to do nothing to help and is only indicative of more big government invading personal lives. Or, do states now get some federal funds based on the number of students applying to colleges or something????

[ondreeuh]

That is just way too legalistic. DD's high school has a careers class in which they're required to learn about professions and make a resume. Some schools require job shadowing or internships to graduate. This diploma requirement seems like a cheap/ineffective way to say they are teaching career skills without actually doing something helpful.

 

DD's new school has a HUGE careers program. The students form a corporation, practice mock interviews, complete internships at one of their many partners, and have the opportunity to work on certifications as part of their classwork.

[Mrs Mungo]

That is just way too legalistic. DD's high school has a careers class in which they're required to learn about professions and make a resume. Some schools require job shadowing or internships to graduate. This diploma requirement seems like a cheap/ineffective way to say they are teaching career skills without actually doing something helpful.

 

I agree with this too.

 

I don't find it disturbing or ominous or even overstepping. I find it practically useless. A required careers class would make a lot more sense.

[IATeachingMom]

What if you've been saving your money and want to take a "gap year" or trip. What if you're going to do something else.... study a language in another country....take care of a sick/elderly family member, get married and become a stay at home mom (unrealistic for sure!), my point is, that there is more than just 3 options.... I homeschool because I want my kids to dream big... not inside the small box of "what's normal". I wouldn't want to sit through a dumb orientation session for apprenticeship if I was going to take a gap year... waste of time!

 

I think that potential law is crazy!

[SonshineLearner]

Yup, waste of time and money. Perhaps requiring the school to do... what it probably does... would be good. Tour of a local community college and State College if close. Explaining the Registration process... etc... What the students and parents decide... totally up to them.

[thescrappyhomeschooler]

Why don't they quit cutting funding to colleges and universities, and then maybe more students will be able to afford to go?

[Denise in Florida]

My first thought - Is this an announcement that their High School is useless and they need to go somewhere else to get training/education?

 

"Hello kids, thanks for spending the last 12 to 13 years with us. Sorry you are still unprepared, better hurry up and fix that on your own.":lol:

 

I haven't finished reading the other responses, so someone else may have already mentioned this.

[athena1277]

What a stupid waste of legislative time/money over something that has nothing to do with whether they earned their diploma or not.

 

:iagree:Also, the colleges will need more admissions counselors to wade through all the extra applications for kids who have no intention of going to their school.

[Wendi]

It is my understanding that it is possible to have the application fees waived if a family is not financially able to pay it.

 

From http://www.collegeboard.com/student/apply/the-application/922.html :

 

"If you received a fee waiver for the SAT®, you may be eligible for application fee waivers from some colleges. See the link below for a list of colleges that do not charge an application fee to, or may consider waiving the fee for, students who have received an SAT Program fee waiver.

Directory of Colleges Cooperating with the SAT Program Fee-Waiver Service (.pdf/1.54MB). Requires Adobe Reader (latest version recommended).

Learn more about the SAT Program Fee-Waiver Service.

Check with your counselor to see if there are other circumstances that might lead to colleges waiving your application fees. For example, you may qualify if you are eligible for free or reduced-fee lunches, or if your family’s annual income is below a certain amount."

 

So then people are going through the hassle of getting the application fee waived so they can submit an application to college when they have no intention of going anyway? And if I remember correctly, a college application is rather lengthy.

 

What about people who just want to get a job that doesn't require college or trade school? They have to go through the motions just to get their diploma that they've already earned?

 

I agree with others that having a career class, having a job fair at high school, inviting representatives from colleges, trade schools, military, etc., to address the students makes more sense than this.

 

Wendi

[Jenny in Florida]

The point is, it is not the school's place to require this of students in order to graduate. What a student intends to do upon receiving his diploma is not the school's business. If a student meets or exceeds all of the academic requirements for a high school diploma, he should receive the diploma, no strings attached.

 

Here's the thing, though, I think: Schools require all kinds of things for graduation. Some require a certain number of hours of community service. Some require senior projects. All require certain courses. Many (all?) states require health classes in which students learn about sex and birth control and the dangers of drugs and drinking and smoking.

 

Many of those things aren't "academic," either.

 

There are lots of things I don't like about public schools, many things I find silly or not helpful to my children. That's one of the many reasons I don't send them to public schools.

 

I just don't see why this is any different?

[Jenny in Florida]

I homeschool because I want my kids to dream big... not inside the small box of "what's normal".

 

Right. And folks in the state considering this law can choose to homeschool, too.

[Snickerdoodle]

I wonder what the dropout rates are in Oregon?

[mommaduck]

The bill’s sponsor, Rep. Tobias Read, a Democrat, told The Oregonian that the bill was a way to increase college-going rates during a time of budget constraints.

 

$$ is attached to this in one way or another. "We are going to force you to 'explore' your options, hoping you will spend money on college where you might have chosen not to otherwise...because we need money."

[twoxcell]

That's Oregon for ya:001_huh:! I'm just glad they have kept their noses out of home school!

[Teachaheart]

Here's the thing, though, I think: Schools require all kinds of things for graduation. Some require a certain number of hours of community service. Some require senior projects. All require certain courses. Many (all?) states require health classes in which students learn about sex and birth control and the dangers of drugs and drinking and smoking.

 

Many of those things aren't "academic," either.

 

There are lots of things I don't like about public schools, many things I find silly or not helpful to my children. That's one of the many reasons I don't send them to public schools.

 

I just don't see why this is any different?

 

Apart from the community service requirement some schools impose, those others you have listed are all academic. As other posters have said, if the schools want to create a career exploration course in which students learn about various careers and the educational/training requirements for them, learn to fill out applications for higher education/training/jobs, and learn to prepare resumes and cover letters and require this class in order to graduate, I would not necessarily be opposed to something like that. Nor would I be opposed to school sponsored and school run college and career fairs. However, requiring students and their families to spend time and money on applications or orientations that they would not otherwise complete or attend in order to fulfill some additional non-course requirement is and ought to remain outside the bounds of authority public schools have. Additionally, Mrs. Mungo has stated that applications for military enlistment are a completely different beast than those for college and trade school and ought not be done merely to fulfill a non-course graduation requirement.

 

Colleges spend quite a bit of money and manpower processing applications and planning courses based on the number of students applying to various schools and programs. Organizers of orientations for trade school programs do as well. It wastes that money and manpower when a fair number of the applicants and attendees are not seriously interested or have no intention of enrolling in the school. Others posters have mentioned the further effects such waste could have in the long run, so I will not repeat those.

 

Lunch is over, and I have students eagerly waiting for Latin and piano lessons, so let me just finish by saying that I understand the desire to have high school students explore various options for their futures. I do not, however, agree with the way this particular bill proposes doing so. Although I am not opposed to discussing this topic further, I will not be able to come back online until tomorrow. So, perhaps we should just agree to disagree. :001_smile:

[Sebastian (a lady)]

That is just way too legalistic. DD's high school has a careers class in which they're required to learn about professions and make a resume. Some schools require job shadowing or internships to graduate. This diploma requirement seems like a cheap/ineffective way to say they are teaching career skills without actually doing something helpful.

 

DD's new school has a HUGE careers program. The students form a corporation, practice mock interviews, complete internships at one of their many partners, and have the opportunity to work on certifications as part of their classwork.

 

I remember doing some similar career interest surveys in school (around 9th grade). I think such information is well within the goals of the school, just as hosting a college fair or getting students to a larger local college fair is a good idea and within the school's mission.

 

Is there really a shortage of students with an idea of what they are going to do after graduation? I don't remember this being a problem when I graduated. Maybe the plans involved going to work on a farm or on a fishing boat or at the local Frito-Lay plant. Maybe it was military or community college or a four year college. But I don't remember many people thinking they were just going to lay around on the couch while their mom brought them cake, cola and the TV remote.

 

(I also find it humorous that the military is an option, given how many ps teachers are adamately against allowing recruiters to talk to students.)

[FaithManor]

I would follow the money trail. How many graduates are we talking and how many colleges in the state of Oregon? Most kids and especially those not inclined to attend college, will apply to the local state schools and CC's. That's easiest. State schools charge an average of about $50.00 for an application fee and of course that's not refundable. So let's multiple $50.00 times all of the graduating seniors who would choose to do the college ap...trade schools run around $35.00 here but some of the really good ones are much higher...and let's assume the smallest percentage will apply to the military and there is no cost, but applying is actually an action not to be taken lightly.....

 

Hmmm....lots of money in the coffers of cooleges and since the non-serious students will not fill out the application with thoughtful effort, their aps will be easy to weed out, lots of money to the trade schools, and the military gets stuck holding the bag for having to send recruiters to check on this stuff, and no money to offset the cost.

 

Additionally, if one these students who makes a lame application to the military were later to actually rethink and possibly want to pursue a military career, they've got a major strike against them. The state schools won't care a lick and the kids will still have a decent chance of getting accepted there as well as at the trades and cc's.

 

Follow the money...this likely does not have the noble goal of motivating students to higher pursuits!

 

Faith

[ThatCyndiGirl]

Not to mention that I think that it puts the kids in a position where they are, let's face it, doing something dishonest when filling out apps for military, trade school, college THAT THEY HAVE NO INTEREST IN. They are wasting people's time just to check off a box.

 

And.....it's horrible to make military one of the options. Recruiters are more than some high school kids could deal with and I would hate to think of a kid being talked into military service just because he/she wanted to check off a box. It is quite a committment, not something to take lightly. (I'm not anti-military. We are a military family, but it is NOT for everybody!)

[Photo Ninja]

This is a bill that won't solve any problems, will create problems, and those who will benefit are the politicians who will use it as a talking point to try to convince constituents that they are helping students be more successful in life, and the state colleges who will receive thousands (tens of thousands?) of dollars in applications fees from students who don't want to attend. I suppose it is one way to help replace money the state cut from universities, but the politicians should just be honest and admit it. This bill needs to be vetoed.

[twoforjoy]

I agree with this too.

 

I don't find it disturbing or ominous or even overstepping. I find it practically useless. A required careers class would make a lot more sense.

 

This. I don't think it's overstepping or anything like that; states can and do require things beyond just course work completion for high school graduation.

 

I just think it's a waste of time, and will have no real impact other than giving students one more pointless hoop to jump through.

[lcelmer]

:iagree: Yet again, the state is overstepping its bounds. What a student does after graduation has no bearing on whether or not they earned the diploma, and is none of the state's business.

:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:

[joannqn]

Stupid!

 

Has nothing to do with helping students.

 

And what about students who have other plans? Like starting a business or taking a gap year. Why not just charge an additional fee to get the diploma; that's all they are really doing anyway.

[Annabel Lee]

I don't think it's "ominous" either. But, I think an application to enlist in the military being among the other options is a little misleading as far what it means to fill out an application to enlist in the military. It's not the same as applying to a college where you never intend to enroll. Students may not realize the implications.

 

:iagree: Once you sign that dotted line for the military, there's no getting out of it.