A Schism in the HS Community?

[Heather in WI]

I would think these folks would have the least conflict. If God wants a particular type of hs programming, one continues on as it's always been, right? You're not looking for anything more than what already exists? No? I don't want that to sound wrong...I am sorry if it does. I am really trying to understand...:grouphug:

 

You're not searching for programs?

 

I'm sorry, but I'm not sure I'm understanding the question. I'm very tired right now, but I'll try to answer the question I think you're asking. :grouphug:

 

I'm not searching for a new curricula/programs. :confused:

 

I think everyone should be able to choose whatever they want to use to educate their child without fear that they will be vilified. I think a schism in the homeschool community would be terrible. I think the schism I've seen on this board in the past week has been painful. I'm a Christian (Reformed Baptist and believe in a literal 6 day Creation), but I don't believe that all Christian or all homeschool material should have to hold to my beliefs. I believe that we have the right and a duty to our conscience to create or use material that we believe in. I have no problem at all with materials existing that I don't agree with.

 

I believe that:

 

 

 

"Freedom of education, being an essential of civil and religious liberty, as well as a necessity for the development of intelligence, must not be interfered with under any pretext whatever ... interference with parental rights and rights of conscience in the education of children [are] an infringement of the fundamental Democratic doctrine that the largest individual liberty consistent with the rights of others insures the highest type of American citizenship and the best government. " ~Democratic Party Platform of 1892

 

[LibraryLover]

Thanks for being gentle with me. I wasn't quite understanding. I feel I understand what you mean now. :)

 

I'm sorry, but I'm not sure I'm understanding the question. I'm very tired right now, but I'll try to answer the question I think you're asking. :grouphug:

 

I'm not searching for a new curricula/programs. :confused:

 

I think everyone should be able to choose whatever they want to use to educate their child without fear that they will be vilified. I think a schism in the homeschool community would be terrible. I think the schism I've seen on this board in the past week has been painful. I'm a Christian (Reformed Baptist and believe in a literal 6 day Creation), but I don't believe that all Christian or all homeschool material should have to hold to my beliefs. I believe that we have the right and a duty to our conscience to create or use material that we believe in. I have no problem at all with materials existing that I don't agree with.

 

I believe that:

 

 

"Freedom of education, being an essential of civil and religious liberty, as well as a necessity for the development of intelligence, must not be interfered with under any pretext whatever ... interference with parental rights and rights of conscience in the education of children [are] an infringement of the fundamental Democratic doctrine that the largest individual liberty consistent with the rights of others insures the highest type of American citizenship and the best government. " ~Democratic Party Platform of 1892

 

[Ibbygirl]

I agree. I was so taken aback, I eventually had to leave the group. The woman who said it had homeschooled since the mid-90's. I respect where she is coming from, but she could not respect others who were different. That part was very narrow minded and I do not think she understood how it offended others. That part made me feel sorry for her.

 

:grouphug::grouphug: I just wonder, if she says it often, how many people (like me maybe) who would never have imagined they could possibly do this thing called home schooling if they would ever even attempt it?? I thank God for Donna Deklavon who was the first home schooler I ever met when I didn't even know that home schooling existed. She patiently listened to my questions and answered them and because of her encouragement I was willing to try even though I myself had a horrible PS experience and was pretty lacking in my own education. Home school has been such a rich and rewarding experience for my dd (and me since I learn right alongside her) I just can't imagine if someone came along in the beginning and dashed my hopes. It makes me want to cry to think of the ramifications in my child. DD went to public school for one year (to appease dh mainly who was not on board with the HS thing) and she was so mercilessly bullied (she's an Aspie and has OCD and ADHD) and the school did nothing about it. I was always in the principals office telling them about my dd getting beat up (5 kids pinned against a fence and repeatedly punched and kicked her) and the vice principal's reply was, "Everyone gets beat up sometime in school." :eek: My dd was 8 years old! After 2 months in the school my husband said we had to bring her home again.

 

Sorry for the tangent, but bottom line is I can't imagine a home schooler, who knows how hard fought it was to even get it legal in the first place, would ever wish to stop anyone from home schooling their children. We home school because we LOVE our kids and KNOW it is the best thing for them. NOBODY has the right to take that hope away from another parent who loves their children and wants what is best for them. :crying: I don't care if they come from different back rounds, racial/ethnic groups, whatever! We are ALL united by the common bond of MOTHERHOOD and wanting to give our children the very best that we can. That transcends all IMO.

 

*steps of soap box and goes back to the forum game thread* :tongue_smilie:

[ThatCyndiGirl]

Okay, this is oddly ironic. On his FB page is the following:

 

Also, we encourage Christians (and non-Christians) who might have a gripe about the AiG ministry to please contact us in private rather than attempt to post something for the world to see.

Thank you.

 

:confused: It was okay, though for him to publicly gripe about someone else? :glare:

[Mrs Mungo]

Okay, this is oddly ironic. On his FB page is the following:

 

Also, we encourage Christians (and non-Christians) who might have a gripe about the AiG ministry to please contact us in private rather than attempt to post something for the world to see.

Thank you.

 

:confused: It was okay, though for him to publicly gripe about someone else? :glare:

 

Holy crap!!!!! Whaaaat?!?!?!?!

[kiana]

:iagree: Everybody judges, I guess. I remember one mom saying that she wasn't mainstream enough for the mainstream group, and not alternative enough for the alternative group.

 

I heard my father say once (twenty years ago) that the only choices for homeschooling get-togethers were the full beards and headcoverings crew or the wispy beards and bean sprouts crew.

[Mrs Mungo]

I heard my father say once (twenty years ago) that the only choices for homeschooling get-togethers were the full beards and headcoverings crew or the wispy beards and bean sprouts crew.

 

When we first started homeschooling my dh asked why all of my friends were hippies or Jesus freaks.

[jld]

I heard my father say once (twenty years ago) that the only choices for homeschooling get-togethers were the full beards and headcoverings crew or the wispy beards and bean sprouts crew.

Lol. It's too bad we can't just focus on what we have in common (educational freedom, as another poster just said), instead of our differences.

[kiana]

Okay, this is oddly ironic. On his FB page is the following:

 

Also, we encourage Christians (and non-Christians) who might have a gripe about the AiG ministry to please contact us in private rather than attempt to post something for the world to see.

Thank you.

 

:confused: It was okay, though for him to publicly gripe about someone else? :glare:

 

Wow. How does that fit with this other article from them?

 

http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/2011/03/28/ethical-publicly-correct

[Kirch]

That makes me so incredibly sad! :( I think it's great that so many people are trying homeschooling. The more the merrier I say. I cannot imagine the impact in my family if PS was the only option that I had for my children. Shudder. My boundary schools are awful.

 

:iagree: The more homeschoolers out there homeschooling every which way makes it easier for my family to school *our* way! More curricula, more classes/co-ops, more resources, growing recognition by society that homeschooling can work . . .

[Audrey]

Ok, so...if this happened, & "educators" & "Christians" parted ways...would that be so bad?

 

If the legalization of hs'ing a couple of decades ago (jeepers, is it 3 now?) gave rise to the growth of the hs industry, couldn't a split between these two warring camps give rise to the growth of secular hs materials?

 

Dh thinks it's preposterous, that anybody can hs. But...I'm thinking about it, & I don't think there's any hs material that teaches evolution. I know there's little in the way of secular history.

 

It would be a real bummer (to me) if the "education" side became ANTI-Christian, but barring that, I'd love to be a part of a community in which I was pretty confident that the mom next to me wasn't squirming because somebody else's statement of faith was excluding or belittling hers.

 

I'd love for Scripture to be sacred again, too, or literature at least, instead of a weapon. But that's really a different thread.

 

So what do you think--would a schism be so bad? Maybe it could have a different term. Propagation. The bi-caging of two crazed monkeys, because the one-cage deal is making them Really Hard to Feed. :D

 

Did you think there wasn't already a schism? Because there is and has been ever since the rise of HSLDA and the fundamentalist publishers and organizations. Those of us who never subscribed to that very particular brand of thinking distanced ourselves from it as soon as it became apparent that certain people wanted to co-opt the entirety of homeschooling for themselves.

 

Just because we don't hold exclusionist conventions, just because we don't build exclusionist organizations, just because we don't blog, facebook and twitter like manic monkeys about it, doesn't mean we aren't out here doing our own thing in opposition to those who would like to see us all shut out and shut down.

 

Or were you just addressing the schism between different types of Christian homeschoolers? In which case, ignore my statement above and have at yourselves.

[Peela]

My first introduction to the *concept* of homeschooling was at a very alternative, John Holt type playgroup.

When several years later I decided to homeschool, before I was plugged into the community here, the first homeschoolers we met- literally on our first day, in the park near our house, by coincidence- were Scientologists! They have their own homeschooling community- completely separate from everyone else- yet they welcomed us into their weekly park day for sport, for 6 months, just from meeting my son and I in the park. Thats just plain friendly!

 

I noticed the community here is flooding with fresh energy, as I was leaving it. The old people who used to run the various groups were moving on- mostly fundamentalist Christians- I was a definite minority in the years I was involved, as a secular person. And many of the new people are secular, and are demanding that activities cater to secular folk- science classes with evolution etc . It looked healthy to me. Supply and demand, basically.

[Anne Rittenhouse]

I completely agree.

 

As an secular ex-homeschooler who left the movement four years ago because of unChristain like behavior and attitudes and exclusion, there is a small, oh so very small part of me that dances with glee as finally the fundy beast is finally turning on itself. I am ashamed of this feeling. The larger part of me grieves for the hundreds of people who will be hurt by this new division. I can identify and understand the larger part of most of the posts, as most are rewrites of the secular vs. Christian internet division in the mid 90's.

 

All I can say is I've been there done this before and can't imagine the pain of the aftermath. I always felt the movement was not as strong as it was before the Christian vs. any one else who can't sign a statement of faith debacle of the 90's and I think it will be even weeker after this schism.

 

The hope and the charge for those left from all the other divisions...the people who eduate for education's sake, the mainstream protestants, the seculars, the unschoolers, the non-Christians, the "what-every you name it" is to put aside YOUR divisions. If this schism occurs and it looks like it will based on the rhetoric machine of the far right, those left ALL, all the outsiders, COLLECTIVELY make up the larger base of homeshoolers. We are not counted, because we aren't organized or called to do so. My charge to all of you is to come together and show how your divisions can be put aside and that the diversity of your groups make up your strength. Have meetings and show and speakers with the widest range of possiblities. Show all the choices you have. Exclude no one or no method or no lifestyle from your movement. Grow the possiblities.

[KidsHappen]

However, the mindset of many homeschoolers who consider themselves part of the "roots" of homeschooling when it was illegal -- think that it has to be fundamental Christianity.

 

I don't know about that. I consider myself to be part of the roots movement (when I started it was not legal everywhere) and I am definitely not Christian nor was I even aware of the large Christian homeschooling population until I had already been homeschooling quite awhile. I think that way back in the beginning it was more hippies than Christians. :D

Edited March 30, 2011 by KidsHappen

[Miss Sherry]

Ah, a good scare about compulsory curriculum and all the homeschoolers will be screaming together, again.:001_smile: It is just a sign of how comfy people feel now.

You do have a point.

[Miss Sherry]

Ok, so...if this happened, & "educators" & "Christians" parted ways...would that be so bad?

 

 

It would be a real bummer (to me) if the "education" side became ANTI-Christian, but barring that, I'd love to be a part of a community in which I was pretty confident that the mom next to me wasn't squirming because somebody else's statement of faith was excluding or belittling hers.

 

I'd love for Scripture to be sacred again, too, or literature at least, instead of a weapon. But that's really a different thread.

 

So what do you think--would a schism be so bad? Maybe it could have a different term. Propagation. The bi-caging of two crazed monkeys, because the one-cage deal is making them Really Hard to Feed. :D

I don't believe that "educators" and "christians" homeschooling can or should be split. That concept is just not part of my thinking. But I am probably looking at this differently than what you are saying and not really getting what you mean by that.

 

Whether or not a schism is a bad thing, of course depends on how that is being applied. I do not think it is a bad thing that there are various groups of different types of homeschoolers. People do tend to organize into groups of like minded people.It's a good thing to do that in order to support and help one another. It's a bad thing to do that out of hostility and judgment against one another.

The schisms are not something that may or may not happen. They just are. It's the hostility and divisiveness that is not good at all, I think. Homeschool conference speakers or attenders should not go away from a conference feeling they have been torn to shreds by speakers. There is no good at all in that kind of schism.

It's always good that various ideas are actually discussed. But for them to be discussed in a mean spirited way and for schisms to happen in that way is certainly not good.

I suppose I may not be really getting what you are saying by "would" a schism be a bad thing. The way I see it is, there already ARE schisms. Do you mean would more divisiveness be a good thing ?

 

What goes on at conferences and between the organizers and speakers of those groups, I do not think is really indicative of what is going on in the minds of most homeschoolers. I suspect some of them like to think that somehow they "run" the "homeschool community" and some kind of homeschool world is revolving around them, but most homeschoolers are busy at home caring for their families and couldn't care less about all of that drama.

Edited March 30, 2011 by Miss Sherry

[AvasMom]

Okay, this is oddly ironic. On his FB page is the following:

 

Also, we encourage Christians (and non-Christians) who might have a gripe about the AiG ministry to please contact us in private rather than attempt to post something for the world to see.

Thank you.

 

:confused: It was okay, though for him to publicly gripe about someone else? :glare:

 

Wow. The irony of that is disturbing. Makes me want to post something publicly on his FB page about it. :001_huh:

[AvasMom]

I heard my father say once (twenty years ago) that the only choices for homeschooling get-togethers were the full beards and headcoverings crew or the wispy beards and bean sprouts crew.

 

:lol:

[Sebastian (a lady)]

Ok, so...if this happened, & "educators" & "Christians" parted ways...would that be so bad?

 

If the legalization of hs'ing a couple of decades ago (jeepers, is it 3 now?) gave rise to the growth of the hs industry, couldn't a split between these two warring camps give rise to the growth of secular hs materials?

 

Dh thinks it's preposterous, that anybody can hs. But...I'm thinking about it, & I don't think there's any hs material that teaches evolution. I know there's little in the way of secular history.

 

It would be a real bummer (to me) if the "education" side became ANTI-Christian, but barring that, I'd love to be a part of a community in which I was pretty confident that the mom next to me wasn't squirming because somebody else's statement of faith was excluding or belittling hers.

 

I'd love for Scripture to be sacred again, too, or literature at least, instead of a weapon. But that's really a different thread.

 

So what do you think--would a schism be so bad? Maybe it could have a different term. Propagation. The bi-caging of two crazed monkeys, because the one-cage deal is making them Really Hard to Feed. :D

 

Maybe I'm looking for something different in materials now that my kids are older. Maybe it reflects the fact that I haven't felt like I got such an outstanding value out of the questions and interpretive portions of curriculum. But I'm not seeing the big dearth of material for this or that viewpoint.

 

On my coffee table I have a Kingfisher Illustrated History of the World (down to about $20 used on Amazon now, btw :D) and a Prentice Hall Science Explorer that I bought used for $5. The library down the street is full of history and science titles. The approach in the WTM allows you to use whatever spine best suits the reading level, maturity, sensitivity and particular interests of your kids.

 

I doubt that we will ever have a Kum Bay Ah sort of feel to homeschooling. At least not for several more decades. When you are rejecting the majority choice of the community around you, possibly choosing something that the extended family doesn't understand or actively disapproves, choosing to stay at home rather than use the school your church has started, and also financing it out of hide; you are going to be rather defensive about that choice.

 

When I watch Smarter than a Fifth Grader with my kids, if they get something wrong, it isn't just because they have leaky sieve minds or because the show doesn't ask questions about Roman emperors or the Norman Conquest. It is because I have failed as a teacher. At least that is the feeling that I always have. (FWIW, I saw a similar defensiveness among the expats who had to choose between different international school options. Choice brings responsibility. And that can be a burden.)

 

Expecting that a conference would be accepting of all viewpoints might be expecting too much. I was thinking last night that it could be cool to have a conference that was a wider education conference for parents and others to attend. Then I thought that the homeschoolers and the charter schoolers and the cyber schoolers and the afternoon tutors might not all get along.

 

I do have to wonder if this is a public outcry or an outcry in public. My in laws live in Cincinnati and haven't heard much about the conference or any dispute surrounding it. Sure there are groups that are moving to protect their name (one way or the other) or to try to market themselves as not one thing or another. That is understandable. It is marketing. I don't need to let it consume so much of my attention.

[KellyKelley]

When we first started homeschooling my dh asked why all of my friends were hippies or Jesus freaks.

 

I love this comment because all my friends are either hippies or Jesus freaks or hippy Jesus freaks. The last group is my favorite.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

I"m not hiding anything. People need to know they can be Christians & think, too.

 

I don't know how to quote your quote, and I'm hoping in the car TO DRIVE TO THE CONVENTION in an hour, so...

 

I don't think that you can do anything to change the mind of the entire homeschool community, anymore than you can convince everyone to watch less tv and play games with their family, eat more nutritious food or read more books.

 

What you can control is your little circle of the world. You can be welcoming to whoever crosses your path and help them a little ways further down their own. You can set an example of graciousness and welcome. You can point out to groups you are in when they are excluding people or making assumptions about points of view*. And if a group you are in is too whatever and resists your efforts to steer it to a better path, you can remove your support of it.

 

 

 

 

*FWIW, the assumptions about POV do run both ways. I'm on a couple local homeschool elists that aren't associated with an IRL group. There was a post about an upcoming documentary screening that was incredibly pointed politically. There was quite a back and forth about it. I don't think that it occured to the poster that any right thinking person wouldn't agree with her viewpoint on politics, unions and social justice. Certainly not on HER elist. What was amusing was that there was a whole discussion of raising "post partisan kids", which seemed to mean kids that held the view of the original poster, as if it didn't reflect a partisan viewpoint. Most amusing really.

[Onceuponatime]

Ok, so...if this happened, & "educators" & "Christians" parted ways...would that be so bad?

 

If the legalization of hs'ing a couple of decades ago (jeepers, is it 3 now?) gave rise to the growth of the hs industry, couldn't a split between these two warring camps give rise to the growth of secular hs materials?

 

Dh thinks it's preposterous, that anybody can hs. But...I'm thinking about it, & I don't think there's any hs material that teaches evolution. I know there's little in the way of secular history.

 

It would be a real bummer (to me) if the "education" side became ANTI-Christian, but barring that, I'd love to be a part of a community in which I was pretty confident that the mom next to me wasn't squirming because somebody else's statement of faith was excluding or belittling hers.

 

I'd love for Scripture to be sacred again, too, or literature at least, instead of a weapon. But that's really a different thread.

 

So what do you think--would a schism be so bad? Maybe it could have a different term. Propagation. The bi-caging of two crazed monkeys, because the one-cage deal is making them Really Hard to Feed. :D

 

That's funny. I got up this morning wondering if we should call this the year of the "Great Schism." ;)

 

I am so glad I am not involved. I don't go to conventions and I do my own thing. Except... for the fact that I live in fundamentalist country and many people assume that's what I am. Probably even my neighbors.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

I think that you can't really pin down a start to homeschooling. There were different groups that came to something that was rather similar, through different paths and for different reasons. One side popularized it more in some circles and another side popularized it more in others. Now it has rather merged and morphed into something else.

 

Debating the foundations of homeschooling, as if it gives one side or the other ownership over the concept doesn't make sense to me. In the same way I like the metaphor of pioneers and settlers and refugees (is that the right one at the end)? It does help to explain the different experiences and attitudes that different families can have. Listening to Zan Tyler a few years ago describe how she started homeschooling and then had a judge threaten her with jail for doing so was incredible. The story still gives me chicken skin and a sense that I too can be a tough woman when the need arises. But just because someone started homeschooling a decade before I did doesn't diminish what I am doing with my family or the experiences we've had.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

My husband asked a similar question. In fact one of the first activities we participated in with a homeschool group was a tie dying party in the park. :lol: We are so not tie dying kind of people.

 

Funny, we're conservative Christians and a military family, but I would so be there. My oldest could wear tie dye every day for two weeks and not wear anything twice.

[Mommyfaithe]

We are secular homeschoolers and have no trouble finding material on evolution and history. It may not be pre-packaged and ready to spoon feed, but it exists.

I deal with the debate by staying away from it. I don't have time for conventions anyway. :)

I have a hard time considering myself part of a "homeschool community" - our family's motivations for homeschooling are different from those of the families we have met. So, I don't fee personally invested in the fights.

 

I am a Christian homeschooler, and I also find myself having a hard time considering myself a part of the homeschooling community...other than here. I don't feel terribly vested in these homeschool " wars", except why should the majority of homeschoolers be bullied by a vocal minority? So many of us have been driven from homeschool groups, events and social arenas because we won't do the Gothard thing, or unschool, or wear denim dresses only, or allow our kids to run free ......just trying to show the 2 very extreme sides in my neck of the woods.

 

I find secular homeschoolers just as exclusive as the Christian Fundy homeschoolers. I have been with both groups with the same results. It is not really a evolution/creation debate....it is ridiculous posturing...instead of love and support.

 

It is the same old...same old....divide and conquer...the devil hard at work...and people play right into it...Christian, secular, etc. It is a game the evil one loves to play....don't let him win.

 

Faithe

[Susan Wise Bauer]

[quote name=Sebastian (a lady);2573384

I don't think that you can do anything to change the mind of the entire homeschool community' date=' anymore than you can convince everyone to watch less tv and play games with their family, eat more nutritious food or read more books.

 

What you can control is your little circle of the world. You can be welcoming to whoever crosses your path and help them a little ways further down their own. You can set an example of graciousness and welcome. You can point out to groups you are in when they are excluding people or making assumptions about points of view*. And if a group you are in is too whatever and resists your efforts to steer it to a better path, you can remove your support of it.

:iagree:

 

I wanted to modify what I said about a schism last night with two observations.

 

The schism is actually between Christians who want to add a certain interpretation of Genesis to their list of nonnegotiables for membership in the kingdom of God,and those who agree to disagree. That's been coming for a long time. Home schooling groups are just one facet of it.

 

Second...home schooling's in good shape. Really. Lots of energy and wonderful resources being produced. The current convention battle isn't over home schooling. It's about controlling the most obvious means of communication. Home schoolers are so decentralized and grass-roots oriented that there's no straightforward way to speak, or market, or communicate, to the majority of them. Conventions have long been the most obvious way to do that.

 

I'm still pretty convinced that conventions don't reach huge swathes of the home schooling community. But they're out there. (Hence my house-conference idea. :-))

 

SWB

[Mommyfaithe]

I love this comment because all my friends are either hippies or Jesus freaks or hippy Jesus freaks. The last group is my favorite.

 

Funny, I am both...see location....

Faithe

[elegantlion]

Okay, this is oddly ironic. On his FB page is the following:

 

Also, we encourage Christians (and non-Christians) who might have a gripe about the AiG ministry to please contact us in private rather than attempt to post something for the world to see.

Thank you.

 

:confused: It was okay, though for him to publicly gripe about someone else? :glare:

:confused: :confused: :confused:

 

 

Holy crap!!!!! Whaaaat?!?!?!?!

 

:iagree: Can dish it out, but can't take it? :confused: Seriously?

[angela in ohio]

This isn't true for everyone, everywhere. John Holt wasn't relgious, and I consider him the founder of hsing (what he called unschooling is not what it has become --radical unschooling is a different animal) as I know it. All these Christian names...I don't know them.

 

That's exactly what I was saying:

 

A certain group "owned" state homeschool groups. But they weren't the only founders of homeschooling (don't forget the hippies and all. ;)) They didn't own everything, but conventions were there territory.

 

What goes on at conferences and between the organizers and speakers of those groups, I do not think is really indicative of what is going on in the minds of most homeschoolers. I suspect some of them like to think that somehow they "run" the "homeschool community" and some kind of homeschool world is revolving around them, but most homeschoolers are busy at home caring for their families and couldn't care less about all of that drama.

 

:iagree:

 

I don't think this convention hoopla signals any big change.

 

Based on what I have read here, I feel like if there is any schism that anyone would be concerned about it is among Christian homeschoolers and not between those who are Christian and those who are not.

 

Exactly. There had already been two distinct groups. The book Kingdom of Children describes the early days of homeschooling and the two distinct groups and their interactions and differences. Very interesting reading for anyone who wants to know the history of homeschooling.

 

This kerfluffle :001_smile: is within the Christian group. Framing it as a difference between secular and Christian homeschoolers is siding with the Ham crew, iykwim. ;)

[NanceXToo]

We are secular homeschoolers and have no trouble finding material on evolution and history. It may not be pre-packaged and ready to spoon feed, but it exists.

I deal with the debate by staying away from it. I don't have time for conventions anyway. :)

I have a hard time considering myself part of a "homeschool community" - our family's motivations for homeschooling are different from those of the families we have met. So, I don't feel personally invested in the fights.

 

:iagree:

 

I'm a secular homeschooler. I've been able to find materials to use without a problem.

 

I have very little knowledge of the "debate" other than little tidbits I've picked up from just skimming post titles here, but I stay away from it for the same reasons quoted above.

 

I don't attend conventions.

 

I can get along with everyone who is willing to get along with me and have no problem letting my kids mix with families from various religious and lifestyle backgrounds when we do things with our homeschool meetup group- which is an inclusive one that exists for socialization and fun learning days, not religious purposes.

 

I'm glad that there are educational materials available to all of us- that those who want a religious curriculum can find one. That those of us who want a secular curriculum can find one.

 

But yes to answer the OP's question, it's true that I wouldn't mind being able to find even MORE secular homeschooling materials. :D

[Paisley Hedgehog]

nm

[Mommyfaithe]

I think it will be more keenly felt in Christian circles, Aubrey. (Yeah for you and me!:glare:)

 

People will assume that b/c I am a Christian and I HS that....

 

Or they will assume that b/c they see certain books on my shelf that I....

 

 

 

The whole "not-Christian-enough" thing doesn't apply if you aren't a professing Christian in the first place.

 

I'm thinking my game-plan for irl is to avoid the topic. (Conservative Christian...dh in the ministry...I'm going to need LOTS of bean-dip.) "Quick kids! Hide our history books!!! The deacon and his wife are coming for dinner!!!!":tongue_smilie::auto:

 

:D:D

[angela in ohio]

I just downloaded my ds's assignment sheet for the week from his umbrella, and there is an opening letter in which our Director has written an editorial coming down firmly on one side of the current AIG-led controversy.

 

I think there are a lot of self-important people in the homeschool movement for some reason. Why does anyone have to make a statement letting us know which "side" they are on? Are they really thinking: "I must let everyone who cannot think this through without me know which side is right!" :001_huh:

[Rivka]

Has anyone else read Mitchell Stevens' book Kingdom of Children? He's a sociologist, and he did an extensive ten-year study of homeschooling families from all sides of the spectrum. The book outlines the two roots of homeschooling, fundamentalist Christians and liberal unschoolers, talks about the ways they are similar and different, and explores how their differing political and organizational tactics have led to most formal organizations being fundamentalist.

 

In light of the current crisis, I should probably read it again - time to hit the library!

[Purple Sage]

I really think that what people are now seeing is a schism that has been developing among "Christians" for quite some time now. This judgment being thrown around of certain groups of believers not being the right kind of Christians has been causing believers like me to pull away from fundamental Christians who use the bible as a club to beat people up. After all, my understanding of the bible says that people must come to a position of belief for themselves and that salvation is based on a personal relationship with God, not what denomination you consider yourself or whether you can have a scripture war and make the other person wet themselves or just let you think you have won so you will shut up!

 

I live in a very religious town....there is an incredible amount of division among different groups of believers, with groups setting themselves above others. It is something that I certainly don't understand, but that I refuse to participate in, on any level.

 

Somewhere in this town there is a woman whose head is still spinning because she accused me of not being "Christian enough." I wasn't attempting to shove my beliefs down anyone's throat or intimidate them with my knowledge of scripture you know...and I dared to laugh at her and tell her she was probably right. I actually had a moment of concern that her head was going to explode!

 

Until those who are NOT of the "I am a better Christian than you are" group just refuse to participate or engage in this childish behavior (whether secular or just not "Christian enough"), this is going to continue. For me....it is not worth my time! I have SOOOO many other things that need doing, like teaching my kids that there are a lot of different belief systems out there and you cannot know WHAT you believe and WHY if you are ignorant to what other people believe! That is one of the main reasons we home school. I want my kids to make educated decisions, not protect them from a diverse world view! And I surely won't select a curriculum that intentionally keeps them blind to certain information just because I am afraid that if they see all the options they might, heaven forbid, pick the wrong choice!

[Hedgehogs4]

You have to wonder with rhetoric like "take back homeschooling" being thrown about. What does that mean anyway? I am seeing it pop up on FB feed. Who has the authority to "take it back" and *from whom*?

 

I wasn't aware that it had gone anywhere. I'm doing just fine in my little classical bubble over here. It seems there is a camp who seems to think they have a copyright on hsing and must strong-arm others into compliance with their way of thinking.

[Hedgehogs4]

Okay, this is oddly ironic. On his FB page is the following:

 

Also, we encourage Christians (and non-Christians) who might have a gripe about the AiG ministry to please contact us in private rather than attempt to post something for the world to see.

Thank you.

 

:confused: It was okay, though for him to publicly gripe about someone else? :glare:

 

:banghead:

[Trish]

It will be interesting to see how the debate evolves.

 

:D

[kiana]

It will be interesting to see how the debate evolves.

 

:D

 

Blasphemer! :D

[FO4UR]

 

The schism is actually between Christians who want to add a certain interpretation of Genesis to their list of nonnegotiables for membership in the kingdom of God,and those who agree to disagree. That's been coming for a long time. Home schooling groups are just one facet of it.

 

 

SWB

 

:iagree: This HSing schism is an aftershock of something that has been going on in Christianity in the USA for a very long time. The Genesis debate is only the tip of the iceberg for *that*...used like a litmus test for entrance into the fold. I'm saddened to see this bleed into HSing, but I can't say that I'm surprised.

[TXMary2]

When there is a market big enough, someone will start a secular conference. When someone thinks there is enough money to be made by strictly secular homeschoolers, it will happen.

 

As far as there not being "secular hs materials" available, sorry, but I find this ridiculous. The whole reason exclusively christian or "fundie" materials came about was because everything out there was a from a secular humanist and evolutionary viewpoint.

 

I can walk into my library and find 8 Dawkins books and 1 anti-Dawkins view. I can turn on the TV and get any number of evolutionary viewpoint shows on National Geographic, Discovery etc, etc. The library, Amazon.com have thousands of non-christian materials available. Used bookstores sell materials that the public schools use. So, excuse me if I sound rude, but there is no shortage of non-christian materials out there.

 

If you are a secular homeschooler who wants a non-fundie group, then start one. Don't join groups that you know you disagree with and then complain about them or start trouble. Rome wasn't built in a day, so your group may not be big, but spread the word.

 

I don't join groups that are contrary to what I believe just because it is the only one out there.

 

I think a divide in the homeschool community might be necessary but I don't think it will stop people from griping. As for those who are saying "take back homeschooling" I find that a little ridiculous and don't understand it at all. I am not threatened by materials I don't agree with, I just don't buy them. I don't care what materials other homeschoolers use or what they teach their kids. It's called choice and freedom and I like it.

 

Personally, my beliefs have evolved since I became a homeschooler, but I started homeschooling for both academic and religious reasons. I continue homeschooling for so many more reasons than those.

Edited March 30, 2011 by TXMary2

[TXMary2]

Okay, this is oddly ironic. On his FB page is the following:

 

Also, we encourage Christians (and non-Christians) who might have a gripe about the AiG ministry to please contact us in private rather than attempt to post something for the world to see.

Thank you.

 

:confused: It was okay, though for him to publicly gripe about someone else? :glare:

 

I think that is called hypocrisy.:001_huh:

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

Completely 100% foreseeable as the community of home education has expanded way beyond the borders of fundamentalist Christianity as its driving force. You should see what Ham is putting forth on facebook about the evangelical community as well. It is truly a divisive, vicious and unparalleled attack on any mode of reading the Bible other than as both science and history literally. There is no doubt in my mind that this was unavoidable as those who brook no ideas or interpretations other than their own are doomed to run into a brick wall. The ability to entertain a thought without agreeing to it is the hallmark of an educated gentleman or gentlelady. Apparently this concept is lost on his ilk.

 

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

[JumpedIntoTheDeepEndFirst]

I don't believe that homeschooling is the specific responsibility or property of any one group. While an individual homeschool, co-op, support group or curricula may reflect a particular set of beliefs (religious, political, philosophical or educational) we cannot assume to extend that set of beliefs to the legally recognized educational system known as homeschooling or home education. Personally I think we need to begin to care about what happens to homeschooling in general because if we don't, it will divide the homeschooling movement to the point where we will be open to loosing legalized homeschooling for religious, educational, or any other reason. Eventually the opponents of homeschooling will use all that we say against each other against us all. I don't believe that a huge publicly debated schism among homeschoolers will lead to anything positive. I do however hope that I would be proven wrong.

 

I realize that this is an alarmist position but I do think that it is not completely unrealistic. Occasionally we forget that there are groups who want to end homeschooling. They may not be getting far at the moment but they do keep trying.

 

I believe that homeschooling in the most general sense is simply an educational system available to anyone of any set of beliefs (political, religious, or otherwise). A family's faith/beliefs will certainly influence their homeschool. However, one set of beliefs cannot be used to define an entire educational system that is based on an element of personal choice.

[Jennifer3141]

I think that is called hypocrisy.:001_huh:

 

You might also get away with calling it "plain crazy." :D

 

This debate fascinates me. I co-op science and history with a couple of other moms. We recently "allowed" (not the right word!) a Xtian mom to join us when she's got the time.

 

I felt kind of sorry for her when she said something like, "You moms are so much nicer than the Xtian HS moms." Apparently, the Xtian HS moms are very concerned about who is going where when they die.

 

I don't have time for stuff like that in my life and hang it all, it makes me glad it's not part of what I've got to deal with as an adult. I do find it oddly ironic that the thing that is supposed to bring people the most comfort can be so darn damaging. I'm watching my new friend really struggle with is. And I'm wondering why the Xtian HS moms cannot see how very un-Christlike that looks.

[Aubrey]

Did you think there wasn't already a schism? Because there is and has been ever since the rise of HSLDA and the fundamentalist publishers and organizations. Those of us who never subscribed to that very particular brand of thinking distanced ourselves from it as soon as it became apparent that certain people wanted to co-opt the entirety of homeschooling for themselves.

 

Just because we don't hold exclusionist conventions, just because we don't build exclusionist organizations, just because we don't blog, facebook and twitter like manic monkeys about it, doesn't mean we aren't out here doing our own thing in opposition to those who would like to see us all shut out and shut down.

 

Or were you just addressing the schism between different types of Christian homeschoolers? In which case, ignore my statement above and have at yourselves.

 

Well...until SWB's post, I hadn't ever heard it *put* that way. I've been trying for the last couple of years to be vocal about the other end of Christianity--you know, be nice to people who believe differently, maybe even be *friends* with them.

 

But when SWB suggested a schism "was coming" w/ such a dark tone, I couldn't help wondering how bad that would be. If your side of things (not to imply there are only 2 sides) is being blocked out by groups like HSLDA, wouldn't an *official* schism sort of help? I mean, I'd totally be in an education camp with you. You're smart & sincere & interesting.

 

Anyway...I'm definitely not talking about different types of Christian hs'ers. I think there would be Christians on both sides of the divide, but that's not my point at all.

[Aubrey]

I just downloaded my ds's assignment sheet for the week from his umbrella, and there is an opening letter in which our Director has written an editorial coming down firmly on one side of the current AIG-led controversy. I am very grieved this morning, and trying to figure out if I am going to be able to leave my ds in a great program when I fundamentally disagree with the leaders. (AND, when we've already signed a contract for next year. :glare:)

 

I'm getting a lot of these emails, too, & am disturbed by them. For the most part, they're openly acknowledging that they're trying to protect their businesses & income, which I understand, but I'm so disappointed at their a) assumption that all of their customers are Ham-ites, & b) absent that assumption, they think being a Ham-ite themselves is "standing up for the TRUTH." That God won't bless them if they "compromise." That people who are openly Christian (Ham-ites) or openly secular will do ok, but those who "try to be all things to all people" (SWB) will fail.

[KnitWit]

I *do* agree with you, SWB, regarding the fact that a person's particular view of origins will be a litmus test, I *also* agree with the pp who said that it is the tip of the iceberg.

 

The UNFORTUNATE thing is that all too often, *if* a person DOES hold to YCE, then it is assumed you automatically hold to a *package deal* that comes along with that and includes a certain political position on all things, an extreme view on what the future does and does NOT hold for your female offspring, the way you worship, the way you dress, the way your children will find a mate, etc. etc. etc. THIS, in my opinion, is what must be disassembled. It will be difficult because all of this is believed to be what the Bible teaches and there is a complete disconnect when someone comes along that does NOT believe that the Bible mandates any of this and yet claims to be a Christian. Honestly, I think Christians need to put a stop to this. We must think for ourselves and STOP supporting groups and companies that think they have the right to interpret God's Word for all.

 

Just my .02

[SweetBean]

I"m not hiding anything. People need to know they can be Christians & think, too.

Thank you for saying this. As a Christian, I find the idea that Christians don't give a flying leap about excellence in education very insulting. I honestly think that this entire issue with Ham has been blown way out of proportion. Some people care for his curriculum advice, that doesn't mean that all of us need to take a side in this and divide up. Are you kidding me? Yikes! I have plenty of friends, Christian and otherwise who make very different curriculum choices than I do. Who cares? Do we really need to keep our Christianity a secret, or go our own separate ways? I think that parties involved need to work this out privately, and the rest of us need to take a step back.

[Aubrey]

When there is a market big enough, someone will start a secular conference. When someone thinks there is enough money to be made by strictly secular homeschoolers, it will happen.

 

As far as there not being "secular hs materials" available, sorry, but I find this ridiculous. The whole reason exclusively christian or "fundie" materials came about was because everything out there was a from a secular humanist and evolutionary viewpoint.

 

Gosh--I really seem to have hit a nerve w/ secular hs'ers. This was really just based on my personal experience. I've only been hs'ing for about 6 yrs...I've never used blatantly Creationist materials (the ones I've seen have been too full of logical fallacies, which offend me more than any view of origins :D:D). My point was just that I haven't *seen* any hs material that teaches evolution. To be fair, I haven't looked for it.

 

I have looked for secular history, & I have not found anything that is chronological. I've only seen 1 or 2 programs that were even secular. Being a Christian, I really don't mind Christian history, but I haven't even seen anything that neutral: everything is either "missionary focused" toward the East (because the West is so Christ-like?) or providential or something.

 

I know my blood pressure can't take that, & honestly, I don't want to give that much to those perspectives. I'm friends w/ people who buy these kinds of curric, & I LOVE the people. They don't talk like the tm's they use, kwim? I even love many aspects of these currics. But I can't help being heart-broken over how they must make other people feel & over the "education" they're giving the kids who use them.

 

I can walk into my library and find 8 Dawkins books and 1 anti-Dawkins view. I can turn on the TV and get any number of evolutionary viewpoint shows on National Geographic, Discovery etc, etc. The library, Amazon.com have thousands of non-christian materials available. Used bookstores sell materials that the public schools use. So, excuse me if I sound rude, but there is no shortage of non-christian materials out there.

 

I'm really confused by why this would be so upsetting to you. I'm glad these materials are working for you. I just know that if it were me, I'd be overwhelmed at having to put all of that together myself. I'm grateful to have programs like SOTW & NOEO & other things already put together for me.

 

If you are a secular homeschooler who wants a non-fundie group, then start one. Don't join groups that you know you disagree with and then complain about them or start trouble. Rome wasn't built in a day, so your group may not be big, but spread the word.

 

Huh?

 

I don't join groups that are contrary to what I believe just because it is the only one out there.

 

Um...ok.

 

I think a divide in the homeschool community might be necessary but I don't think it will stop people from griping. As for those who are saying "take back homeschooling" I find that a little ridiculous and don't understand it at all. I am not threatened by materials I don't agree with, I just don't buy them. I don't care what materials other homeschoolers use or what they teach their kids. It's called choice and freedom and I like it.

 

Personally, my beliefs have evolved since I became a homeschooler, but I started homeschooling for both academic and religious reasons. I continue homeschooling for so many more reasons than those.

 

Now I feel like I'm in the twilight zone: that was my whole point. I can't tell if we agree or disagree or if you're a Christian or not. I mean, it's fine either way, I'm just *really* confused by your post.