Statement of Faith?

[pqr]

Are their guns you can fire safely from the back from a bicycle? :tongue_smilie:

 

Here you go. Not so much back firing as front firing.

 

 

http://www.landships.freeservers.com/new_pages/arm_mc.htm

Edited February 13, 2011 by pqr

[Mrs Mungo]

You know, life ain't perfect and you can't always have what you want. Callous? Maybe, but that's reality. Things don't always go the way you want them to. People don't always bend to your way of thinking. Sometimes, reality sucks. It's just life.

 

And that was the whole point of this thread. It is callous. It comes across as neither compassionate nor Christian. It violates the golden rule. It sucks, it upsets and hurts people. People have the right to be as exclusionary and jerky as they please, a lot of people are still going to be hurt by it.

[pqr]

And that was the whole point of this thread. It is callous. It comes across as neither compassionate nor Christian. It violates the golden rule. It sucks, it upsets and hurts people. People have the right to be as exclusionary and jerky as they please, a lot of people are still going to be hurt by it.

 

 

...but you are asking that others make major changes in their co-ops to accomodate you. That too is, as you put it, "callous and clueless about the various life situations people find themselves in." You are not very compassionate about their desires or needs and the diatribe launched against the SOF crowd does, I assume, mean "a lot of people are still going to be hurt by it" One poster even called them "so called Christians!" They have been mocked, insulted and your post even calls into question their compassion and Christinity. All this because they simply wish to raise their children as they see fit.

 

I grant that you agree that they have a right to a SOF but you show zero consideration for their views. Comparing a co-op with an SOF to flag burners? Different ends of the spectrum, but I still see your point. Nevertheless we are not talking about the scum who burn our flag but about fellow HSers who, while they have a fundamental difference in view on the SOF, are still generally the good guys.

Edited February 13, 2011 by pqr

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

And that was the whole point of this thread. It is callous. It comes across as neither compassionate nor Christian. It violates the golden rule. It sucks, it upsets and hurts people. People have the right to be as exclusionary and jerky as they please, a lot of people are still going to be hurt by it.

 

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

 

 

Plus, if I am a helper in one of these classes I might be subversive with the crayons and the glue:tongue_smilie:

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

...but you are asking that others make major changes in their co-ops to accomodate you. That too is, as you put it, "callous and clueless about the various life situations people find themselves in." You are not very compassionate about their desires or needs and the diatribe launched against the SOF crowd does, I assume, mean "a lot of people are still going to be hurt by it" One poster even called them "so called Christians!"

 

I grant that you agree that they have a right to a SOF but you show zero consideration for their views. Comparing a co-op with an SOF to flag burners? Different ends of the spectrum, but I still see your point. Nevertheless we are not talking about the scum who burn our flag but about fellow HSers who, while they have a fundamental difference in view on the SOF, are still generally the good guys.

 

Who said anything about asking them to change their views or classes? My son and I do not try to be subversive or disrespectful of the school or previous co-ops he attended. We followed the ground rules:D

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

Sorry, I couldn't read all of the twelve pages intervening, but I wanted to address this:

 

Parrothead wrote:

 

"Yes, the Christian group has the right to exclude the Jewish family, but does that make it right?

 

That is where people have problems with SOFs."

 

And somebody else responded:

 

But why does it make it wrong? Again, I'm not talking about being hostile to anyone. But if I want to start a group that does XYZ, why am I wrong to not include people who want to do LMNOP? If the purpose of my group is to accomplish ABC, why would I want people who's agenda is DEF?

 

... my experience with this has been that the objective/agenda/purpose of my super-duper-fundamentalist homeschool group is To Educate And Socialize The Children. Coincidentally, this is also my goal. I belong to a different religion, but that doesn't mean I have a different agenda for the co-op! Good grief!

 

My son is learning secular 1st grade content and a lot of Jesus stories. When I substitute in his class, I read Torah stories or secular stories. My high school literature class is covering Beowulf to Virginia Woolf, and so far my only possibly-contentious insertion has been to assure them that there is not a massive Catholic conspiracy to take over the governments of the world - and that was more of a scholarly opinion than a Jewish opinion. :lol:

 

Really, it's just. not. a. problem. for people of different religions to learn together, as long as everybody is respectful. Exclusionary (as opposed to informative) SOFs just boggle my mind. If I'm willing for my child to hear the Jesus stories, then I don't see how our presence is polluting.

 

I've been involved with another co-op headed by a JW, and I wanted to give a shout-out in that direction: having been on the receiving end of discrimination and exclusion because of her faith, she did an AWESOME job of creating a co-op environment where the conduct and content was acceptable to conservative Protestants, but those of all faiths (and no faith) were able to participate fully.

 

:iagree: Great post:D

[pqr]

Who said anything about asking them to change their views or classes? My son and I do not try to be subversive or disrespectful of the school or previous co-ops he attended. We followed the ground rules:D

 

You are asking them to do away with a SOF. This is changing their views on the value of that SOF is it not?

[Britomart]

Thank you for this response. It made me think.

 

I'm not convinced that a lack of religious belief = a lack of belief in objective truth or a disregard for the author's intent, but I can see how those things might be more common if you don't believe in a diety.

 

And neither of those points seem to support excluding Jews, Muslims, or less orthodox Christian groups.

 

Oh! no! I don't think that a lack of religious belief equals a lack of belief in objective truth or a disregard for the author's intent, rather I meant that religious belief made it more likely you'd approach the texts with that belief and regard.

 

And you're right, it doesn't exclude Jews, Muslims, etc . . . actually, my guess is that conservative Jews, Muslims and Christians would get along better in a literature class than conservative Christians and liberal Christians would. Just given how those two groups read the same Bible and get such vastly different things out of it - it makes me think they have vastly different approaches to texts!

[Mrs Mungo]

You are asking them to do away with a SOF. This is changing their views on the value of that SOF is it not?

 

I have never asked a group or a person to do away with a SOF. I gave my experiences on some of the various groups we have been involved with, including one that required a SOF for leadership/teaching positions. I haven't asked anyone to change, I am merely asking that people understand that there are negative consequences as well as the positives than you mention. Sola *agreed* that it was callous and basically said, "too bad, so sad." you might see that as a compassionate Christian stance, but I do not. You are allowed your view, I certainly understand it. I am allowed my opinion, whether or not you agree with it. Eta: Challenging people's views on a SOF isn't the same as requesting that a group change their policy.

 

Eta: I have been an active member of at least 12 different groups in various regions of the US and overseas. I have a very good understanding of the types of groups that work and thrive and the type that do not. How many groups have *you* (not your wife) been an active, participating member of, pqr? It is my *personal experience* that the best, most thriving group I have been involved with was a tolerant, non-SOF-requiring, forth-rightly Christian group. It has been my experience that when a group gets more closed it slowly dies off.

Edited February 13, 2011 by Mrs Mungo

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

You are asking them to do away with a SOF. This is changing their views on the value of that SOF is it not?

 

I am only asking for no SOF or a SOF that is an FYI only:D I do not like the idea of signing them since then it is exclusionary IMHO.

[Smithie]

"...but you are asking that others make major changes in their co-ops to accomodate you."

 

Nope. I'm not asking for any changes at all. Which is why I'm so astounded to encounter groups that ask that question, get my answer, and STILL decide that that "no Jews allowed" is a morally tenable policy for their freakin' co-op. :confused:

[Parrothead]

You are asking them to do away with a SOF. This is changing their views on the value of that SOF is it not?

No one is asking anyone to do away with anything. We are just bitc***g about the fact they exist. There is a difference.

[Mrs Mungo]

No one is asking anyone to do away with anything. We are just bitc***g about the fact they exist. There is a difference.

 

And I will make a list of threads full of senseless complaining, if you feel the need to attack them all.

[Pretty in Pink]

Eta: I have been an active member of at least 12 different groups in various regions of the US and overseas. I have a very good understanding of the types of groups that work and thrive and the type that do not. How many groups have *you* (not your wife) been an active, participating member of, pqr? It is my *personal experience* that the best, most thriving group I have been involved with was a tolerant, non-SOF-requiring, forth-rightly Christian group. It has been my experience that when a group gets more closed it slowly dies off.

 

This has also been my experience, as a family that moves frequently and has been involved in half a dozen homeschool groups and co-ops over the past 8 years. I saw a group fall apart because some members (those in elected leadership positions) drafted and ratified a more exclusionary statement of faith against the wishes of over half of the group. This group had previously been an openly Christian group that was open to families of all faiths and belief systems; the SOF originally served to let everyone know exactly what the group was about, but members were not required to subscribe to the SOF, just acknowledge that they understood where the group officially stood. It was in no way exclusionary.

[pqr]

I have been an active member of at least 12 different groups in various regions of the US and overseas. I have a very good understanding of the types of groups that work and thrive and the type that do not. How many groups have *you* (not your wife) been an active, participating member of, pqr?

 

 

Not as many as you, but that is perhaps because I do not seem to move quite as frequently and my wife does most of the teaching, while I work outside the home. I suspect this is true of the vast majority of HS families. How many groups has your *husband* (not you) been an active participating member of, Mrs Mungo? I assume, however, that your husband is just as aware of the activities of your co-ops as I am of those I have helped and those that I have simply observed, so what exactly is your point?

 

Then again there are many groups we could have joined and did not because I would not sign an SOF that I did not completely agree with.

 

Nevertheless I do not call those who would exclude me ""callous and clueless about the various life situations people find themselves in" nor do I question their compassion or Christianity, I try to be bigger than that.

[Lovedtodeath]

 

""callous and clueless about the various life situations people find themselves in" nor do I question their compassion or Christianity, I try to be bigger than that.

You have taken that quote out of context.

[pqr]

You have taken that quote out of context.

 

How? The line was "I had just moved from a place where I had 8 volunteer jobs that I parceled out to 6 different people when I left. I was burned out, I was stressed, I had no time or energy to make my own group. I'm sorry, but a lot of responses just seem callous and clueless about the various life situations people find themselves in".

 

The comment says that many who support a SOF are callous and clueless....where have I lost context?

[Lovedtodeath]

How? The line was "I had just moved from a place where I had 8 volunteer jobs that I parceled out to 6 different people when I left. I was burned out, I was stressed, I had no time or energy to make my own group. I'm sorry, but a lot of responses just seem callous and clueless about the various life situations people find themselves in".

 

The comment says that many who support a SOF are callous and clueless....where have I lost context?

Thank you for providing context. The responses that were telling people that if they did not like a SOF they should just make their own group seemed clueless. Not everyone can make their own group, and it isn't just as easy as joining one.

 

That is not the same as calling people with a SOF in their group callous and careless.

[Carol in Cal.]

Really, it's just. not. a. problem. for people of different religions to learn together, as long as everybody is respectful. Exclusionary (as opposed to informative) SOFs just boggle my mind. If I'm willing for my child to hear the Jesus stories, then I don't see how our presence is polluting.

 

 

So, let me ask you this: Is is respectful to teach the Jesus stories as revealed truth? Is it respectful to lead children in prayer to Jesus at the beginning and end of a literature class, prayer, perhaps, that Jesus would illumine all that is studied being as how He is the Light of the World? Maybe that is what leaders of groups with SOF's want to do.

 

The question isn't, as far as I can see, one of respect as much as it is a question of shared celebration/practices/faith.

 

Yes, it is truly and completely possible to learn together as long as everyone either stifles or expresses mutual respect for each others' faiths.

 

And in fact, I have done that, organizationally--I have taught a Junior Great Books coop that was secular (not inclusive, but secular). I have started and run a year long middle school literature group that was perhaps more inclusive than secular, but that had secular leanings. I am now running a small girls group for 4th and 5th graders at a local public elementary school that is entirely secular. I have never started or taught in a specifically Christian group outside of a church.

 

Having said that, I would like to have been able to teach from a Christian perspective, and pray together, beyond the church and my own home, with children from more families than just my own. So I understand and actually have developed a lot of sympathy for those who have decided to do so. And in that case, it's not a question of pollution. It is a question of trying to establish Christian community, which is a reasonable and worthy goal. It's not that anyone is specifically against anyone else. It is that they are organizing FOR a goal that is worth a great deal to them and to their families. They have every right to do that.

Edited February 13, 2011 by Carol in Cal.

[pqr]

Thank you for providing context. The responses that were telling people that if they did not like a SOF they should just make their own group seemed clueless. Not everyone can make their own group, and it isn't just as easy as joining one.

 

That is not the same as calling people with a SOF in their group callous and careless.

 

 

So because I will not join some co-ops due to a moral inability to sign a SOF that I do not believe in and yet still say buck up and live with it or found your own group I am callous? Maybe. Clueless? No. Remember one of my responses was just that...."Go and found a group of your own"

 

It certainly is calling those with a SOF who say "no you may not join, go and found your own group" both callous and clueless. Context fits.

Edited February 13, 2011 by pqr

[weaver_67579]

You know, life ain't perfect and you can't always have what you want. Callous? Maybe, but that's reality. Things don't always go the way you want them to. People don't always bend to your way of thinking. Sometimes, reality sucks. It's just life.

 

I don't have to like it or be quiet about it. When new homeschoolers meet me and ask about groups-I do let them know the problems that I-and others I know-have had with the group. OTOH. I have no problem referring very conservative folks that would like that kind of exclusive group to them either.

 

Their group is shrinking quickly. A lot of people are leaving or becoming inactive because of how they treat some of their members and how they treat some new people recommended for membership by members (myself and several friends included). OTOH-our very inclusive group has grown a lot this year......

[weaver_67579]

It all comes back to the groups having the freedom to decided what they want to be. I do think the groups should be up front about their SOF and what they are and if they have to be signed.

 

Even if they are the only group in town, they have the right to be what they want to be and accept the people that they want to accept (there is nothing wrong or immoral about that). It doesn't matter whether it is social or academic. If you want something different you can start it yourself or do without IMO. There are plenty of places to meet people and there is nothing that says you can't be friends with people in a group that you can't be part of. QUOTE]

 

have a right, but as you said-they should be completely up-front. To behave otherwise is rude and unnecessary.

[pqr]

-they should be completely up-front. To behave otherwise is rude and unnecessary.

 

Correct.

[weaver_67579]

I used to have a real problem with SOF but after seeing groups torn apart because they did not have one, I have changed my opinion. We are a military family and have moved a lot. We have been apart of many, many groups. Currently the best co op in our area requires me to sign a SOF that I don't agree with so unfortunately we are not apart of it.

 

to change your mind-what caused the groups to fall apart? Could it have been something that could have been prevented with a code of conduct rather than a SOF? I have also knows a bunch of people that just signed even if they did not believe the sof.

 

We are apart of a Christian co-op that requires a SOF and a secular one that does not. The first runs much smoother than the second.

 

 

I would guess that to be more a function of the leadership abilities of the people in charge than a SOF. Some people are good managers and some are not

 

 

For what it is worth I have yet to see a truly inclusive co-op.

 

 

Also interesting....What has made them not inclusive? Personally I have heard of people posting here that many tend to be hostile to Christians, but I haven't seen it personally in the groups I have belonged to. I do thing there is a big difference between accepting and respecting someone for having different beliefs and having to put up with them using that as a forum to push those beliefs on others. There is a fine line. I have had someone find out that I am not YE in a group I used to belong to and they sent me internet links to YE stuff....That was not cool in my opinion. It had nothing to do with me not respecting her beliefs or ability to have them. She was overstepping bounds. Now-if we had had a discussion and I told her I was interested-that would have been ok. The door swings both ways on that. Our group is very accepting of folks of many religious types (including some pastor's families), and we do talk personally about our faiths, but preaching to others or sending them stuff like I mentioned without them asking would likely get you warned and if you did not quit-kicked out of the group. Would kicking them out make the group not inclusive. We do have a code of conduct rather than a SOF and I like that much better...

[Plucky]

 

 

 

Also interesting....What has made them not inclusive? Personally I have heard of people posting here that many tend to be hostile to Christians, but I haven't seen it personally in the groups I have belonged to. I do thing there is a big difference between accepting and respecting someone for having different beliefs and having to put up with them using that as a forum to push those beliefs on others. There is a fine line. I have had someone find out that I am not YE in a group I used to belong to and they sent me internet links to YE stuff....That was not cool in my opinion. It had nothing to do with me not respecting her beliefs or ability to have them. She was overstepping bounds. Now-if we had had a discussion and I told her I was interested-that would have been ok. The door swings both ways on that. Our group is very accepting of folks of many religious types (including some pastor's families), and we do talk personally about our faiths, but preaching to others or sending them stuff like I mentioned without them asking would likely get you warned and if you did not quit-kicked out of the group. Would kicking them out make the group not inclusive. We do have a code of conduct rather than a SOF and I like that much better...

 

That is not what happened in the group I was in. Christians were not overstepping. There was outright derision from group members if one found out you were a Christian. Now this hs group was crazy and did disband.

 

I've heard other inclusive groups aren't like this in my area, but they do have power struggles and it has nothing to do with religion. Like I mentioned earlier, they keep disbanding and starting over under new names.

 

I do remember last year, we opened the pe co-op to every homeschooler, and the secular members kept their distance and segregated themselves from the rest of us. I was surprised because I was friendly acquaintances with a couple and I did overhear negative remarks about Christians. It really does go both ways.

[unsinkable]

You know what is funny? Every Catholic school I've had dealings with takes non-Catholic students.

 

And the homeschooling parents who don't send their kids to school never say it is because there are non-Catholics there.

[Slartibartfast]

Never mind.

Edited February 14, 2011 by Sis

[Xuzi]

Thinking about this topic a bit more today, and it struck me where some of my hang-ups in regards to SOF's may be coming from.

 

When I see a Christian co-op touting the "All Christians Welcome!" sign, and then having a SOF that excludes me, and when I hear some say that they don't want Mormonism being legitimized as a bonefide Christian denomination, it makes me feel like me and my kids are someone other Christians are trying to "protect" their kids from. Like we pose a danger or a risk to them. It brings back painful memories of my elementary days when I would make a new friend, and then a few days or weeks later wind would get to my new friends' parents that their little Jimmy or Jainey is playing with a Mormon, and that would be the death knell of the friendship. I heard many times as a kid "My parents don't want me playing with a Mormon." It caused me a lot of heartache as a kid, that my faith, which from an early age I *loved*, somehow made me an unacceptable playmate, and somehow "unworthy" of having friends (because it happened a *lot*), and it was never explained to me by my ex-friends what exactly it was about my faith that was dangerous. As I got into HS it didn't happen as much, and I made friends with Catholics and Proeststants and atheists, but I grew up always being a bit leery of mainstream Christianity, and it wasn't until a few years ago when I decided I needed to try and break through that mistrust and I joined a MOPS group (which had a SOF that you signed saying you understood the beliefs of the group, without being required to agree with them) that I started trying to understand mainstream Christianity more, and was able to discover some of the beauty within that side of Christianity, and let go of some of that mistrust.

 

But SOF's that are meant to keep my family OUT still rankle at those last bits of mistrust I have within me. I realize that many of those groups don't mean any offence towards me or my faith, and really just want to meet with like-minded individuals, but when it feels like it's more to keep me and my kids OUT than to draw people of a certain faith IN, it stings a little bit.

[HRAAB]

Thinking about this topic a bit more today, and it struck me where some of my hang-ups in regards to SOF's may be coming from.

 

When I see a Christian co-op touting the "All Christians Welcome!" sign, and then having a SOF that excludes me, and when I hear some say that they don't want Mormonism being legitimized as a bonefide Christian denomination, it makes me feel like me and my kids are someone other Christians are trying to "protect" their kids from. Like we pose a danger or a risk to them. It brings back painful memories of my elementary days when I would make a new friend, and then a few days or weeks later wind would get to my new friends' parents that their little Jimmy or Jainey is playing with a Mormon, and that would be the death knell of the friendship. I heard many times as a kid "My parents don't want me playing with a Mormon." It caused me a lot of heartache as a kid, that my faith, which from an early age I *loved*, somehow made me an unacceptable playmate, and somehow "unworthy" of having friends (because it happened a *lot*), and it was never explained to me by my ex-friends what exactly it was about my faith that was dangerous. As I got into HS it didn't happen as much, and I made friends with Catholics and Proeststants and atheists, but I grew up always being a bit leery of mainstream Christianity, and it wasn't until a few years ago when I decided I needed to try and break through that mistrust and I joined a MOPS group (which had a SOF that you signed saying you understood the beliefs of the group, without being required to agree with them) that I started trying to understand mainstream Christianity more, and was able to discover some of the beauty within that side of Christianity, and let go of some of that mistrust.

 

But SOF's that are meant to keep my family OUT still rankle at those last bits of mistrust I have within me. I realize that many of those groups don't mean any offence towards me or my faith, and really just want to meet with like-minded individuals, but when it feels like it's more to keep me and my kids OUT than to draw people of a certain faith IN, it stings a little bit.

 

:grouphug:

[Slartibartfast]

 

I grant that you agree that they have a right to a SOF but you show zero consideration for their views. Comparing a co-op with an SOF to flag burners? Different ends of the spectrum, but I still see your point. Nevertheless we are not talking about the scum who burn our flag but about fellow HSers who, while they have a fundamental difference in view on the SOF, are still generally the good guys.

 

I think it is a fine comparison. *shrug*

 

I may may/not agree with flag burning or SOF but both are permitted by the constitution.

 

I do think it is jerky to have a SOF.

Edited February 14, 2011 by Sis

[Lovedtodeath]

It brings back painful memories of my elementary days when I would make a new friend, and then a few days or weeks later wind would get to my new friends' parents that their little Jimmy or Jainey is playing with a Mormon, and that would be the death knell of the friendship. I heard many times as a kid "My parents don't want me playing with a Mormon." It caused me a lot of heartache as a kid, that my faith, which from an early age I *loved*, somehow made me an unacceptable playmate, and somehow "unworthy" of having friends (because it happened a *lot*),

Better to be a PM... nevermind.

[lovemyboys]

This is what a friend and I are doing. She started the yahoogroup, then I came along when I found it while searching when we moved. 6 months later, we're up to a whole 6 members :) I plan to make paper fliers soon and put them up in likely places, as this town doesn't seem particularly internet-savvy.

 

Good luck. I hope it really works for you....even if the active core of members stays fairly small. Better to have a small harmonious group than a growing bigger contentious group.

 

(Ask me how I know ... Well, don't ask, you can guess! ;) )

[Mama Geek]

Thank you for providing context. The responses that were telling people that if they did not like a SOF they should just make their own group seemed clueless. Not everyone can make their own group, and it isn't just as easy as joining one.

 

That is not the same as calling people with a SOF in their group callous and careless.

 

It is not clueless to expect that if people want a group to suit their needs that they should start one or go without. There is no one stopping them from doing this. I am sure that a good number of groups start with 2 or 3 families. I think I was the first person to suggest that. People start companies, churches, and anything else that you can think of. Your telling me that not everyone can start a HS group that fits their needs? It sounds a whole lot more like they are just unwilling to do the work involved.

[Parrothead]

It is not clueless to expect that if people want a group to suit their needs that they should start one or go without. There is no one stopping them from doing this. I am sure that a good number of groups start with 2 or 3 families. I think I was the first person to suggest that. People start companies, churches, and anything else that you can think of. Your telling me that not everyone can start a HS group that fits their needs? It sounds a whole lot more like they are just unwilling to do the work involved.

I think the point of contention here is that if one is in a large city/heavily populated area starting a new group is all well and good. The problem is while it seems like everyone lives in a large city or populous area, that isn't reality.

 

If one lives in an area with 6 homeschooling families and 5 of those families exclude based on religion (or hair color or number of kids or whatever) with whom is family number 6 to start a group?

[Mrs Mungo]

Not as many as you, but that is perhaps because I do not seem to move quite as frequently and my wife does most of the teaching, while I work outside the home. I suspect this is true of the vast majority of HS families. How many groups has your *husband* (not you) been an active participating member of, Mrs Mungo? I assume, however, that your husband is just as aware of the activities of your co-ops as I am of those I have helped and those that I have simply observed, so what exactly is your point?

 

I'm in my tenth year of homeschooling. My dh has attended one day of one conference and has attended two support group meetings. He doesn't have the first clue about the inner workings of this or that group. I suspect that is true of the vast majority of homeschool families.

 

Nevertheless I do not call those who would exclude me ""callous and clueless about the various life situations people find themselves in" nor do I question their compassion or Christianity, I try to be bigger than that.

 

You sure love those straw-man arguments. Ad-hominem attacks are just so much easier than arguing what what I actually said, aren't they?

 

Thank you for providing context. The responses that were telling people that if they did not like a SOF they should just make their own group seemed clueless. Not everyone can make their own group, and it isn't just as easy as joining one.

 

That is not the same as calling people with a SOF in their group callous and careless.

 

This.

 

It is not clueless to expect that if people want a group to suit their needs that they should start one or go without. There is no one stopping them from doing this. I am sure that a good number of groups start with 2 or 3 families. I think I was the first person to suggest that. People start companies, churches, and anything else that you can think of. Your telling me that not everyone can start a HS group that fits their needs? It sounds a whole lot more like they are just unwilling to do the work involved.

 

My eldest dd is 15 years old. She has lived in 8 homes. Do you logically think that's enough time to truly get a homeschool group off the ground from scratch, EVERY time I move? And I get these people from where? Add to the many other hats I wear? Just TRY to put yourself in someone else's shoes for a minute instead of defending your own position. There are as many different life situations as there are people here. To not understand that you are going to make some people mad when you intentionally exclude them from a group is a clueless response. To not understand that it's not so easy for everyone because everyone is different is clueless. To not have compassion for the situation of other people is callous.

 

I just don't see a single response about starting a homeschool group that is HELPFUL here. If I did, I would be responding differently. The OP posted a VENT about a situation she was upset about. You can be helpful or you can dump on her some more. Essentially saying "too bad, so sad," isn't helping your position.

Edited February 14, 2011 by Mrs Mungo

[KatieH]

I'll just say that I don't have any problem with SOF, even when they exclude me, and leave it at that. Nothing else I type sounds charitable.

[pqr]

I'm in my tenth year of homeschooling. My dh has attended one day of one conference and has attended two support group meetings. He doesn't have the first clue about the inner workings of this or that group. I suspect that is true of the vast majority of homeschool families..

 

It may be true of the majority but not of me. I know of what I speak. In our time HSing I have taught lessons in co-ops, attended many many meetings and am fully involved. Truth be told my wife makes most of the decisions but I am aware of them all.

 

You sure love those straw-man arguments. Ad-hominem attacks are just so much easier than arguing what what I actually said, aren't they?..

 

You mean quoting you directly and then further making the point in a post that you neglected to quote me on?

 

 

Just TRY to put yourself in someone else's shoes for a minute instead of defending your own position. There are as many different life situations as there are people here. To not understand that you are going to make some people mad when you intentionally exclude them from a group is a clueless response. To not understand that it's not so easy for everyone because everyone is different is clueless. To not have compassion for the situation of other people is callous.

 

 

So stop questioning people's compassion and Christian charity....as you did. Stop telling me that I am clueless....as you did.

 

Do your own thing and let others do theirs. In other words live and let live. If anything your arguments have strengthened my conviction that even if I would not sign a SOF they are the right way to go.

 

The attacks on those who simply want to be left alone and the cacophony of attacks on those who actually want to raise their children without their choices being questioned by those who feel "left out" is deafening.

 

Over the course of 30 pages it has become apparent that the anti-SOF crowd is using arguments that are eerily similar to the anti-HS crowd.

 

"Your children will not meet those of other beliefs if you have a strict SOF" = "Your children will not be socialized if you HS"

 

"We don't want to change your beliefs, we just want you to change the requirements to join" = "We don't want to change your beliefs or HSing, we just want you to register your HS, provide XY & Z"

 

"You are being exclusionary" = "HS children are raised by religious wackos who want nothing to do with society in general"

 

"If you let us in you would see, we don't want to change anything, we have the same goals" = "Trust us we are from the PS and if you send your children to PS you would see, we just want to help educate them, we have the same goals"

 

"We know better, SOFs are bad" = "We know better, HS is bad"

 

No, you have strongly made the case that SOFs are absolutely the correct choice. Many HSers fled the PS system for precisely the reasons that you are attacking. They did not want someone else to influence how they educated their children.

 

Incidentally, does it bother you that if the pressure tactics of the anti-SOF crowd win then some families will leave a co-op? Put yourself in their shoes….show them the same feeling that you demand from them.

Edited February 14, 2011 by pqr

[OnTheBrink]

I don't have to like it or be quiet about it. When new homeschoolers meet me and ask about groups-I do let them know the problems that I-and others I know-have had with the group. OTOH. I have no problem referring very conservative folks that would like that kind of exclusive group to them either.

 

Their group is shrinking quickly. A lot of people are leaving or becoming inactive because of how they treat some of their members and how they treat some new people recommended for membership by members (myself and several friends included). OTOH-our very inclusive group has grown a lot this year......

 

No one said you had to be quiet about anything. I support your right to complain about it. :001_smile:

[Mrs Mungo]

It may be true of the majority but not of me. I know of what I speak. In our time HSing I have taught lessons in co-ops, attended many many meetings and am fully involved. Truth be told my wife makes most of the decisions but I am aware of them all.

 

I asked a question.

 

You mean quoting you directly

You twisted my words so much that someone else even pointed out you did it.

 

and then further making the point in a post that you neglected to quote me on?

 

So stop questioning people's compassion and Christian charity....as you did. Stop telling me that I am clueless....as you did.

You admit I did not quote you, and yet you insist that my words are for you? You admit that you don't even belong to a group with a SOF and probably would not sign one yourself. Therefore, how could my post refer to you?

 

Do your own thing and let others do theirs. In other words live and let live. If anything your arguments have strengthened my conviction that even if I would not sign a SOF they are the right way to go.

People have a right to complain about things they don't like. Even complaining about people complaining, OBVIOUSLY.

 

The attacks on those who simply want to be left alone and the cacophony of attacks on those who actually want to raise their children without their choices being questioned by those who feel "left out" is deafening.

 

The anti-SOF crowd is using arguments that are eerily similar to the anti-HS crowd.

 

"Your children will not meet those of other beliefs if you have a strict SOF" = "Your children will not be socialized if you HS"

The only post I saw that said anything remotely like this was from a person who liked the SOF because she did not want her children to become to close to people of other faiths.

 

"We don't want to change your beliefs, we just want you to change the requirements to join" = "We don't want to change your beliefs or HSing, we just want you to register your HS, provide XY & Z"

SEVERAL people have said they are NOT asking anyone for anything. They are expressing their PERSONAL dislike. It sounds like *you* are the one who refuses to live and let live. So we don't like it, what's it to you?

 

"You are being exclusionary" = "HS children are raised by religious wackos who want nothing to do with society in general"

Quote where someone implied anything like that. Statements of faith are INTENDED to be exclusionary. It's an objective fact that it's exclusionary. *Many* people have said that's why they like it. That's why other people don't like it. It's a divisive issue.

 

"If you let us in you would see, we don't want to change anything, we have the same goals" = "Trust us we are from the PS and if you send your children to PS you would see, we just want to help educate them, we have the same goals"

Again, I have personally been involved in inclusive co-ops with a high level of trust and respect and it worked extremely well. That is my personal experience.

 

"We know better, SOFs are bad" = "We know better, HS is bad"

People can believe homeschooling is bad all day long, it doesn't affect me.

 

No, you have strongly made the case that SOFs are absolutely the correct choice. Many HSers fled the PS system for precisely the reasons that you are attacking. They did not want someone else to influence how they educated their children.

This makes me doubt whether you have read all of my posts. I VERY SPECIFICALLY said that I understood why some people prefer a SOF for a co-ops situation and that I just didn't understand it when it came to park days, zoo trips and the like. Did you read that? Do you actually care what I say or you just like to yell at me, personally?

 

Incidentally, does it bother you that if the pressure tactics of the anti-SOF crowd wins then some families will leave a co-op? Put yourself in their shoes….show them the same feeling that you demand from them.

Give me a quote where someone has gone to a group and asked them to change. It's not there, pqr, another strawman.

[OnTheBrink]

 

It may be true of the majority but not of me. I know of what I speak. In our time HSing I have taught lessons in co-ops, attended many many meetings and am fully involved. Truth be told my wife makes most of the decisions but I am aware of them all.

 

 

 

You mean quoting you directly and then further making the point in a post that you neglected to quote me on?

 

 

 

 

So stop questioning people's compassion and Christian charity....as you did. Stop telling me that I am clueless....as you did.

 

Do your own thing and let others do theirs. In other words live and let live. If anything your arguments have strengthened my conviction that even if I would not sign a SOF they are the right way to go.

 

The attacks on those who simply want to be left alone and the cacophony of attacks on those who actually want to raise their children without their choices being questioned by those who feel "left out" is deafening.

 

The anti-SOF crowd is using arguments that are eerily similar to the anti-HS crowd.

 

"Your children will not meet those of other beliefs if you have a strict SOF" = "Your children will not be socialized if you HS"

 

"We don't want to change your beliefs, we just want you to change the requirements to join" = "We don't want to change your beliefs or HSing, we just want you to register your HS, provide XY & Z"

 

"You are being exclusionary" = "HS children are raised by religious wackos who want nothing to do with society in general"

 

"If you let us in you would see, we don't want to change anything, we have the same goals" = "Trust us we are from the PS and if you send your children to PS you would see, we just want to help educate them, we have the same goals"

 

"We know better, SOFs are bad" = "We know better, HS is bad"

 

No, you have strongly made the case that SOFs are absolutely the correct choice. Many HSers fled the PS system for precisely the reasons that you are attacking. They did not want someone else to influence how they educated their children.

 

Incidentally, does it bother you that if the pressure tactics of the anti-SOF crowd wins then some families will leave a co-op? Put yourself in their shoes….show them the same feeling that you demand from them.

 

:iagree:

[Parrothead]

 

 

Incidentally, does it bother you that if the pressure tactics of the anti-SOF crowd win then some families will leave a co-op? Put yourself in their shoes….show them the same feeling that you demand from them.

Who is pressuring whom? No one (from the Hive) is actively trying to change any particular group or at least hasn't let on about it. The thread is a grouch-fest not a how-can-I-make-these-people-take-me-and-my-poor-children-in. Seriously if someone started one of those there would be a pretty unanimous "you can't make them do anything" answer.

[pqr]

Mrs Mungo

 

You said "I had just moved from a place where I had 8 volunteer jobs that I parceled out to 6 different people when I left. I was burned out, I was stressed, I had no time or energy to make my own group. I'm sorry, but a lot of responses just seem callous and clueless about the various life situations people find themselves in"

 

...as I was one of those people who stated that if you do not like it go and found your own co-op, I am obviously in your view clueless and callous. I am not misquoting you, I am not taking it out of context.

 

Your read the challenge and even quoted it, but not my response.

 

As to the other questions you ask, there are numerous posts of people calling SOFs exclusionary and calling members of such co-ops "so called Christians" or lamenting that the groups simply do not understand....

 

 

Calling people callous, uncharitable, un-Christian, clueless etc is a call to change Stating that people should just sign an SOF and thereby undermine a co-op (I assume that like me you do not like liars in your midst) is a de facto movement to change a co=op, it is also patently dishonest.

 

 

You say "SEVERAL people have said they are NOT asking anyone for anything. They are expressing their PERSONAL dislike. It sounds like *you* are the one who refuses to live and let live. So we don't like it, what's it to you? "

 

When you call me and others like me clueless, when you challenge the charity, compassion and beliefs of a fair number of the posters on this thread then it becomes a point of discussion. That is what it is to me. If you express a personal dislike that is fine, but expect a response.

 

 

You say "This makes me doubt whether you have read all of my posts. I VERY SPECIFICALLY said that I understood why some people prefer a SOF for a co-ops situation and that I just didn't understand it when it came to park days, zoo trips and the like. Did you read that? Do you actually care what I say or you just like to yell at me, personally?"

 

I read everything you posted, I find your views thought provoking (even if I disagree)....so yes I do care what you say. Do really feel that I am "yelling" at you? I know you claim to understand, but it is only a partial understanding. Tell me when your co-op goes to the zoo or park is education not part of it? Do you not explain a little bit about species, culture etc? If you understand why a co-op would want a SOF why would they not want it for a trip to the zoo?

 

Must be off - enjoy.

[Mama Geek]

 

My eldest dd is 15 years old. She has lived in 8 homes. Do you logically think that's enough time to truly get a homeschool group off the ground from scratch, EVERY time I move? And I get these people from where? Add to the many other hats I wear? Just TRY to put yourself in someone else's shoes for a minute instead of defending your own position. There are as many different life situations as there are people here. To not understand that you are going to make some people mad when you intentionally exclude them from a group is a clueless response. To not understand that it's not so easy for everyone because everyone is different is clueless. To not have compassion for the situation of other people is callous.

 

I just don't see a single response about starting a homeschool group that is HELPFUL here. If I did, I would be responding differently. The OP posted a VENT about a situation she was upset about. You can be helpful or you can dump on her some more. Essentially saying "too bad, so sad," isn't helping your position.

 

You have chosen your path and I have chosen mine. We all have choices and make decisions. My dh does contracting wherever the money is. My dd and I will go with him in most cases. I have made many moves over my lifetime, so I know what I am in for.

 

I never dumped on the OP and I think for a least a few people including myself you and others have demonstrated why a SOF is needed, so I don't think you have helped her either.

 

Unless there is a major disaster, I will be homeschooling so that I can guide and teach my dd as I see fit.

 

You and I don't see eye to eye on much of anything and we can just add this to the list.

[Smithie]

"So, let me ask you this: Is is respectful to teach the Jesus stories as revealed truth? Is it respectful to lead children in prayer to Jesus at the beginning and end of a literature class, prayer, perhaps, that Jesus would illumine all that is studied being as how He is the Light of the World? Maybe that is what leaders of groups with SOF's want to do."

 

Yes, that's totally respectful, in a Christian co-op. Co-op is hardly the only place that my kids are exposed to that kind of thing. I don't know why I'd shoot us in the foot by eschewing all the benefits of co-op, only to have my kids encounter the same worldview at the zoo, on the playground, from the teachers in our public schools, etc. (Yes, I live in the South.)

 

Now if you'll excuse me, I have to go off to my Christian co-op. :D

[JennyD]

I think that I have now read all of the pages of this very long and contentious thread. It has been very interesting. I am Jewish and at the moment (i.e., not living where they're the only homeschooling game in town) can't take the 'statement of faith' thing all that personally, but I can certainly see how if you self-identify as Christian it could be a huge deal, on either side of the equation.

 

One question: Are there other places in the American Christian world where these 'statements of faith' are similarly divisive, or is this largely a homeschooling phenomenon? Obviously, I know that there are all different kinds of Christian denominations, but are there other interdenominational arenas in which this kind of thing comes up?

 

(I should note that Jews are most emphatically not without their own cage matches. They just don't generally look like these.)

Edited February 14, 2011 by JennyD

[mommaduck]

I think that I have now read all of the pages of this very long and contentious thread. It has been very interesting. I am Jewish and can't take the 'statement of faith' thing all that personally, but I can certainly see how if you self-identify as Christian it could be a huge deal, on either side of the equation.

 

One question: Are there other places in the American Christian world where these 'statements of faith' are similarly divisive, or is this largely a homeschooling phenomenon? Obviously, I know that there are all different kinds of Christian denominations, but are there other interdenominational arenas in which this kind of thing comes up?

 

(I should note that Jews are most emphatically not without their own cage matches. They just don't generally look like these.)

 

I know there are churches that are against parachurch organizations (aka Council of Churches where there are food pantries, clothing closets, etc)...but they just don't volunteer or support them; they aren't rejected by them.

[Mrs Mungo]

Mrs Mungo

 

You said "I had just moved from a place where I had 8 volunteer jobs that I parceled out to 6 different people when I left. I was burned out, I was stressed, I had no time or energy to make my own group. I'm sorry, but a lot of responses just seem callous and clueless about the various life situations people find themselves in"

 

...as I was one of those people who stated that if you do not like it go and found your own co-op, I am obviously in your view clueless and callous. I am not misquoting you, I am not taking it out of context.

 

You claim I call PEOPLE clueless and callous rather than the responses. "A lot of these RESPONSES SEEM callous and clueless," is not the same as saying "pqr, you are clueless and callous." It's not *at all* the same thing. So, yes, you are taking it out of context AND twisting my words.

 

As to the other questions you ask, there are numerous posts of people calling SOFs exclusionary and calling members of such co-ops "so called Christians" or lamenting that the groups simply do not understand....

Calling them exclusionary is not the same as calling them racist. They are exclusionary by objective definition and purpose. To pretend otherwise is silly.

 

Calling people callous, uncharitable, un-Christian, clueless etc is a call to change

THIS is where you are completely wrong. That's *exactly* why I used the flag analogy. Unlike you, I don't think flag burners are "scum," so we obviously have a different view. I do think they are somewhat clueless and jerky. I don't like people burning the flag. However, I think the legal status of flag burning should remain the same. Just because it's legal and I believe it's a valid form of protest, I don't think it needs to change. That's why I used it as an analogy.

 

Stating that people should just sign an SOF and thereby undermine a co-op (I assume that like me you do not like liars in your midst) is a de facto movement to change a co=op, it is also patently dishonest.

I have been a member of more than one co-op where people just signed the SOF without taking it seriously. I don't think it makes them liars, I think it means they don't take it as seriously as I do. The only one calling names here is you.

 

When you call me and others like me clueless, when you challenge the charity, compassion and beliefs of a fair number of the posters on this thread then it becomes a point of discussion. That is what it is to me. If you express a personal dislike that is fine, but expect a response.

When the posters themselves don't claim to be compassionate? In fact, several of stated they they DO NOT feel a need to be compassionate or charitable to those outside of their our belief system in this case? Why do you feel the need to challenge it? Many of them admit their responses are not compassionate or charitable.

 

I read everything you posted, I find your views thought provoking (even if I disagree)....so yes I do care what you say. Do really feel that I am "yelling" at you? I know you claim to understand, but it is only a partial understanding. Tell me when your co-op goes to the zoo or park is education not part of it? Do you not explain a little bit about species, culture etc? If you understand why a co-op would want a SOF why would they not want it for a trip to the zoo?

In the groups (NOT co-ops, I have REPEATEDLY and EMPHATICALLY stated that I understand why *some people* feel the need for a SOF in a CO-OP, even though you just quoted it, you keep ignoring that fact) that I have been a part of we usually take a tour with a docent or zookeeper. The parents are not the ones talking to the group in those cases. That is my experience.

 

I never dumped on the OP and I think for a least a few people including myself you and others have demonstrated why a SOF is needed, so I don't think you have helped her either.

 

I don't think *anyone* has demonstrated a need for a SOF in groups that do park days, go to the zoo and so forth. Personally, I have also said that I have had good experiences in co-op situations that did not require a SOF. I understand why some people prefer one in co-op situations, but I have no experience with that.

 

"So, let me ask you this: Is is respectful to teach the Jesus stories as revealed truth? Is it respectful to lead children in prayer to Jesus at the beginning and end of a literature class, prayer, perhaps, that Jesus would illumine all that is studied being as how He is the Light of the World? Maybe that is what leaders of groups with SOF's want to do."

Every Christian homeschool group I have ever been a part of leads the group in prayers. Under what circumstances do you believe a forthrightly Christian group would need a signed SOF from each member to do that?

 

One question: Are there other places in the American Christian world where these 'statements of faith' are similarly divisive, or is this largely a homeschooling phenomenon? Obviously, I know that there are all different kinds of Christian denominations, but are there other interdenominational arenas in which this kind of thing comes up?

 

Homeschool groups are the only place I have ever encountered such a thing. The group I mentioned earlier where I did not participate as a leader because of the SOF issue? It was through my church at the time. The SOF was laden in more doctrine than even the church required for membership. Long-time members of the church could not teach in the group because the SOF was so specific. I taught BIBLE CLASSES in another context at the church to some of the same kids I couldn't teach in the co-op. That's probably a large part of the reason I see it as such a contentious issue.

Edited February 14, 2011 by Mrs Mungo

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

"So, let me ask you this: Is is respectful to teach the Jesus stories as revealed truth? Is it respectful to lead children in prayer to Jesus at the beginning and end of a literature class, prayer, perhaps, that Jesus would illumine all that is studied being as how He is the Light of the World? Maybe that is what leaders of groups with SOF's want to do."

 

Yes, that's totally respectful, in a Christian co-op. Co-op is hardly the only place that my kids are exposed to that kind of thing. I don't know why I'd shoot us in the foot by eschewing all the benefits of co-op, only to have my kids encounter the same worldview at the zoo, on the playground, from the teachers in our public schools, etc. (Yes, I live in the South.)

 

Now if you'll excuse me, I have to go off to my Christian co-op. :D

 

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

[mirth]

My eldest dd is 15 years old. She has lived in 8 homes. Do you logically think that's enough time to truly get a homeschool group off the ground from scratch, EVERY time I move? And I get these people from where? Add to the many other hats I wear? Just TRY to put yourself in someone else's shoes for a minute instead of defending your own position. There are as many different life situations as there are people here. To not understand that you are going to make some people mad when you intentionally exclude them from a group is a clueless response. To not understand that it's not so easy for everyone because everyone is different is clueless. To not have compassion for the situation of other people is callous.

 

I want to understand from the above: is inclusion the only acceptable form of compassion? If not, then on order to be compassionate to every possible member or reader of a group's charter, does it have to say, "We realize some people will feel excluded from our group. We are sorry for this feeling of malignment."? I really don't think any organization, which is afterall only composed of people (and their rights to free speech and assembly), needs to apologize for its existence. What a pansy nation we would be if everything has to begin with "I'm sorry this may offend anyone out there, but ..."

[Mrs Mungo]

I want to understand from the above: is inclusion the only acceptable form of compassion? If not, then on order to be compassionate to every possible member or reader of a group's charter, does it have to say, "We realize some people will feel excluded from our group. We are sorry for this feeling of malignment."? I really don't think any organization, which is afterall only composed of people (and their rights to free speech and assembly), needs to apologize for its existence. What a pansy nation we would be if everything has to begin with "I'm sorry this may offend anyone out there, but ..."

 

Let me reiterate. I did not say the groups lacked compassion. I said some of the responses here lacked compassion. EVERYONE acknowledges that these groups have every right to exist and to do whatever they want. BUT, people don't have to like it. I was saying please try and understand why some people don't like it, here are a few of the legitimate reasons people don't like it. How pansy is it for everyone to have to like everything you do?