CAMom Posted February 14, 2011 Share Posted February 14, 2011 Part of the problem with this WHOLE discussion is that we are all talking at cross-purposes. Everyone has had different experiences with regard to groups who have a SOF. Yes, I guess that is true. That's why it's hard for me to see any group with a SOF just broad brushed into the negative experiences carried by someone else. Why would anyone malign a group unless they have specific interaction with that group? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veritaserum Posted February 14, 2011 Share Posted February 14, 2011 Wow! Did I say that? Where did I ever say that someone who holds ideas different than mine are making it up? You did: "See, that stuff does matter to me. Because I see a follower of Christ as one who follows what He actually taught about Himself not what he makes up about Him." I'm sorry. I inferred the "misguided fools" bit. I'm glad you don't feel that way, but I get frustrated and suspicious any time someone gets insistent about narrowly defining Chrstianity as ONLY a particular set of beliefs IN ADDITION to believing in and following Christ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veritaserum Posted February 14, 2011 Share Posted February 14, 2011 That is not what she is saying. If you read the whole conversation between the two of us about Jesus coming from Neptue you'll get the reference. I've read every post in this thread. I saw Neptune and unicorns as code for "additional scripture" or "non-triune God" or "non-literal interpretation of Genesis". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrothead Posted February 14, 2011 Share Posted February 14, 2011 I've read every post in this thread. I saw Neptune and unicorns as code for "additional scripture" or "non-triune God" or "non-literal interpretation of Genesis". Ooooh. I see. I can't speak for her, but I thought she was being serious not coded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joanne Posted February 14, 2011 Share Posted February 14, 2011 Yeah, any Christian who holds beliefs that differ from yours are just "making it up". They couldn't possibly have a different interpretation of His word, could they? No, they are all delusional, misguided fools who only think they are Christians. :001_rolleyes: Can't you see how the whole "I'm a Christian because I believe ABCD and you're not a Christian because you believe DEFGH" attitude is offensive? This is the reason I am against statements of *faith* for groups. They usually emerge from a Christian perspective that is agendized against catholics and LDS and rarely leave room for less than literal understanding of the Christian bible. I believe that my standing as a Christian is between me and God, and not an artificial man made, imposed construct. I have *much* less objection to actually wanting a select group (though I could discuss that ;)). My objection develops when Christians decide for others who "qualifies". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrothead Posted February 14, 2011 Share Posted February 14, 2011 (edited) Yes, I guess that is true. That's why it's hard for me to see any group with a SOF just broad brushed into the negative experiences carried by someone else. Why would anyone malign a group unless they have specific interaction with that group? I'm fairly certain that all of the anti-SOFers here have at one time or anther been at the wrong end of a SOF for one of their local groups or their only group. My experience wasn't so much an SOF - they weren't that organized. I was part of a loose co-op for science class. There were 4 families. The leader and I got on well. One lady acted like it pained her to talk to me. The 4th was kind of in between the two. The first "year" (Nov-May) dd and I were welcomed. The next year the leader moved, and turned it over to the lady who wouldn't speak to me. We were no longer welcomed. Turns out that it wasn't pain. She believed that if she associated with me (a Catholic) she would be condemning her immortal soul. It was her 6-year old that told my 6-year old on our second visit to the co-op that she (my dd) was going to Hell because we are Catholic. So, yeah, I have issues with "not being a good enough Christian." Edited February 14, 2011 by Parrothead Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovedtodeath Posted February 14, 2011 Share Posted February 14, 2011 Ultimately is that scenario any different than what we have going on now? Christians can't agree right now on how Jesus arrived. On how he arrived? Really? I had no idea.:001_huh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simka2 Posted February 14, 2011 Share Posted February 14, 2011 On how he arrived? Really? I had no idea.:001_huh: Yup! but that is a whole nuther' thread...;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry Goldwater Posted February 14, 2011 Share Posted February 14, 2011 So, is there no commonality in Christianity at all? Just anyone who says they are a Christian is? There's no objective truth that one must believe about Him? :iagree: I can say I'm a professional basketball player...that doesn't make me one...(If you saw me, my physique, and my athletic ability, you would agree, and you would laugh.) Having said that, there are some (actually many!) matters within Christianity that can be debated, even harshly. They don't necessitate division. But there are some that are non-negotiable. That's as far as I'm going to go in a forum like this...It sort of gets back to a point I made many pages ago. Are we talking about truths or beliefs? Or matters of taste? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lionfamily1999 Posted February 14, 2011 Share Posted February 14, 2011 :iagree: I can say I'm a professional basketball player...that doesn't make me one...(If you saw me, my physique, and my athletic ability, you would agree, and you would laugh.) Having said that, there are some (actually many!) matters within Christianity that can be debated, even harshly. They don't necessitate division. But there are some that are non-negotiable. That's as far as I'm going to go in a forum like this...It sort of gets back to a point I made many pages ago. Are we talking about truths or beliefs? Or matters of taste? That's the root of the problem though Barry. For some, there are no truths, only feelings, preferences, &tc; there are some where the 'truths' are a longer list than the lists others have; and there are some where the truths, while seemingly coming from that same source, are completely different from the 'truths' that the others can almost agree on. I have no issue with SOFs. I think they do a good thing. They inform the person joining what sort of beliefs are shared amongst the group and that those beliefs are considered VERY IMPORTANT. IOW, imo, the SOF says, "X is the truth. We believe this. It is not open to discussion and it is VERY IMPORTANT to us that X is understood to be the TRUTH. This is more important to us than a full member body. We are willing to take our lumps while upholding this TRUTH." Whether or not that 'truth' is important to anyone else, like prospective members or turned off never going to join members, is secondary. The SOF makes it clear that those truths are, to those members or that group, VERY IMPORTANT. If it's not important to someone else, I guess that would be very hard to understand. If that truth is not shared by someone else, I guess it would be even harder to understand. To them, that group, it is that important. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Mungo Posted February 14, 2011 Share Posted February 14, 2011 :iagree: I can say I'm a professional basketball player...that doesn't make me one...(If you saw me, my physique, and my athletic ability, you would agree, and you would laugh.) Having said that, there are some (actually many!) matters within Christianity that can be debated, even harshly. They don't necessitate division. But there are some that are non-negotiable. That's as far as I'm going to go in a forum like this...It sort of gets back to a point I made many pages ago. Are we talking about truths or beliefs? Or matters of taste? Ultimately, this is the problem people have with the SOF issue. One person's divine truth is another person's false doctrine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovedtodeath Posted February 14, 2011 Share Posted February 14, 2011 Yup! but that is a whole nuther' thread...;) I think I am starting to know what she meant... originally created vs. not created, virgin birth vs. not a virgin birth. When I posted that I was thinking more along the lines of in order to get here, he was born as a human. I think we all agree to that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrothead Posted February 14, 2011 Share Posted February 14, 2011 I think I am starting to know what she meant... originally created vs. not created, virgin birth vs. not a virgin birth. When I posted that I was thinking more along the lines of in order to get here, he was born as a human. I think we all agree to that. :lol::lol: I'm not touching it with a 20-foot pole. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JumpedIntoTheDeepEndFirst Posted February 14, 2011 Share Posted February 14, 2011 Ultimately, this is the problem people have with the SOF issue. One person's divine truth is another person's false doctrine. But it is also exactly the reason that some groups have an SOF. They don't want people (like me usually) preaching a "false doctrine" to their kids. The SOF is their way of keeping me out. It may not be fair and often sucks but that is what they believe. I'm just glad they let me know through the SOF before I joined the group. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoPlaceLikeHome Posted February 14, 2011 Share Posted February 14, 2011 But it is also exactly the reason that some groups have an SOF. They don't want people (like me usually) preaching a "false doctrine" to their kids. The SOF is their way of keeping me out. It may not be fair and often sucks but that is what they believe. I'm just glad they let me know through the SOF before I joined the group. Yes, but would you really preach to other's kids? I would think most people would not ever do that IMHO. I would think that is disrespectful to those other parents. Plus I would never ever preach or debate when I was a member of co-op that had differing beliefs than mine. I will offer to help pass out the crayons and glue or sit in the lounge while I wait for ds:D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simka2 Posted February 14, 2011 Share Posted February 14, 2011 :lol::lol: I'm not touching it with a 20-foot pole. :iagree::lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Mungo Posted February 14, 2011 Share Posted February 14, 2011 But it is also exactly the reason that some groups have an SOF. They don't want people (like me usually) preaching a "false doctrine" to their kids. The SOF is their way of keeping me out. In the case of a group that goes to the zoo, does park days, has a field day, etc, when would you be preaching to someone's child? That's what I don't understand. And as was said in the very first page or two of the thread, couldn't you have a conduct code to avoid preaching to the children, if necessary? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CAMom Posted February 14, 2011 Share Posted February 14, 2011 I've read every post in this thread. I saw Neptune and unicorns as code for "additional scripture" or "non-triune God" or "non-literal interpretation of Genesis". Well, you definitely saw something that wasn't there. That is not at all what I was saying. Not at all! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simka2 Posted February 14, 2011 Share Posted February 14, 2011 But it is also exactly the reason that some groups have an SOF. They don't want people (like me usually) preaching a "false doctrine" to their kids. The SOF is their way of keeping me out. It may not be fair and often sucks but that is what they believe. I'm just glad they let me know through the SOF before I joined the group. Wouldn't it be even better if they let you know in the name of their group. It may seem like splitting hairs, but to call a group "Christian Homeschool Group of Houston," and then have an SOF that say's only this type "specific" form of Christianity is allowed. Wouldn't you feel a bit decieved and angry that someone took a word that defines you, but then said you don't qualify. Or even if you wouldn't feel that way, understand that others might? Now, I do think we are responsible for our feelings, we need to deal with our anger, but that doesn't mean these types of set-ups should go unchallenged. Then there's the the other issue of being in a rural area, but that horse has been beat :D! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slartibartfast Posted February 14, 2011 Share Posted February 14, 2011 In the case of a group that goes to the zoo, does park days, has a field day, etc, when would you be preaching to someone's child? That's what I don't understand. And as was said in the very first page or two of the thread, couldn't you have a conduct code to avoid preaching to the children, if necessary? That would make more sense to me than excluding Catholics/non-Catholics/Mormons/Jews/JW ect ect I mean really...how gross is it to be saying "I don't want my kids playing with Jews and Catholics"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrothead Posted February 14, 2011 Share Posted February 14, 2011 Wouldn't it be even better if they let you know in the name of their group. It may seem like splitting hairs, but to call a group "Christian Homeschool Group of Houston," and then have an SOF that say's only this type "specific" form of Christianity is allowed. Wouldn't you feel a bit decieved and angry that someone took a word that defines you, but then said you don't qualify. Or even if you wouldn't feel that way, understand that others might?Now, I do think we are responsible for our feelings, we need to deal with our anger, but that doesn't mean these types of set-ups should go unchallenged. Then there's the the other issue of being in a rural area, but that horse has been beat :D! It also doesn't mean that one isn't allowed to fuss about one's frustration on one's inclusive homeschool message board. ;) Misery loves company and all that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CAMom Posted February 14, 2011 Share Posted February 14, 2011 I'm fairly certain that all of the anti-SOFers here have at one time or anther been at the wrong end of a SOF for one of their local groups or their only group. My experience wasn't so much an SOF - they weren't that organized. I was part of a loose co-op for science class. There were 4 families. The leader and I got on well. One lady acted like it pained her to talk to me. The 4th was kind of in between the two. The first "year" (Nov-May) dd and I were welcomed. The next year the leader moved, and turned it over to the lady who wouldn't speak to me. We were no longer welcomed. Turns out that it wasn't pain. She believed that if she associated with me (a Catholic) she would be condemning her immortal soul. It was her 6-year old that told my 6-year old on our second visit to the co-op that she (my dd) was going to Hell because we are Catholic. So, yeah, I have issues with "not being a good enough Christian." I'm sorry you had such a negative experience.:grouphug: I've been on the wrong end of a SOF, too. I couldn't sign one presented to me that declared a dispensational, pre-millenial view of the end times. It really didn't bother me, though. I just moved on. I've also had the experience of not being a good enough Christian. I actually had my salvation questioned by friends when I confessed that I'd read the Twilight series. It didn't matter to them that I read them to have something in common with my sister. In fact, that made it worse to them. I've also been accused of being a legalist and not accepting enough. I guess I'm too in the middle to please anyone. It's just going to have to be OK for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simka2 Posted February 14, 2011 Share Posted February 14, 2011 It also doesn't mean that one isn't allowed to fuss about one's frustration on one's inclusive homeschool message board. ;) Misery loves company and all that. :iagree:That's a part of the process!!! ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slartibartfast Posted February 14, 2011 Share Posted February 14, 2011 a dispensational, pre-millenial view of the end times. I would ask them if they supported The People's Front of Judea or The Judea People's Front That is what their SOF was about?? REALLY??? That is just silly. :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrothead Posted February 14, 2011 Share Posted February 14, 2011 I'm sorry you had such a negative experience.:grouphug: I've been on the wrong end of a SOF, too. I couldn't sign one presented to me that declared a dispensational, pre-millenial view of the end times. It really didn't bother me, though. I just moved on. I've also had the experience of not being a good enough Christian. I actually had my salvation questioned by friends when I confessed that I'd read the Twilight series. It didn't matter to them that I read them to have something in common with my sister. In fact, that made it worse to them. I've also been accused of being a legalist and not accepting enough. I guess I'm too in the middle to please anyone. It's just going to have to be OK for me. :grouphug: As I'm getting older I'm finding I don't have as much time left as I did in my 20s. That bit that I bolded above would be enough for me to start cutting ties with these friends. I mean, seriously? From reading a bit of popular fiction? I don't think I'll ever be accused of being legalist or of scrupulosity. ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry Goldwater Posted February 14, 2011 Share Posted February 14, 2011 I would ask them if they supported The People's Front of Judea or The Judea People's Front Wow...OK...now it all makes sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Mungo Posted February 14, 2011 Share Posted February 14, 2011 I would ask them if they supported The People's Front of Judea or The Judea People's Front BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! :smilielol5: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CAMom Posted February 14, 2011 Share Posted February 14, 2011 I would ask them if they supported The People's Front of Judea or The Judea People's Front That is what their SOF was about?? REALLY??? That is just silly. :lol: No, it wasn't what is was about. It was just one point out of several.:) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slartibartfast Posted February 14, 2011 Share Posted February 14, 2011 Wow...OK...now it all makes sense. What are you implying here? I watched that movie with my mom. :tongue_smilie: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Mungo Posted February 14, 2011 Share Posted February 14, 2011 What are you implying here? I watched that movie with my mom. :tongue_smilie: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slartibartfast Posted February 14, 2011 Share Posted February 14, 2011 That is my all time favorite Monty Python bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlockOfSillies Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 Well, there's this one... 13Now when Jesus came into the district of Caesarea Philippi, He was asking His disciples, "Who do people say that the Son of Man is?" 14And they said, "Some say John the Baptist; and others, Elijah; but still others, Jeremiah, or one of the prophets." 15He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?" 16Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." 17And Jesus said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. (Matthew 16:13-17) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlockOfSillies Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 But He gave us the Scriptures so that we could point people to the truth outside of our own opinions. The apostles had no problem calling people out on their false doctrines, and furthermore they warned their audiences to contend for the faith and guard against false teachers who would try to infiltrate the Body. Whew, talk about a rabbit trail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovedtodeath Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 I guess I'm too in the middle to please anyone. It's just going to have to be OK for me. Me too. We should make our own exclusive club. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovedtodeath Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 We were just talking about this very scene!:lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mommaduck Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 Well, there's this one... 13Now when Jesus came into the district of Caesarea Philippi, He was asking His disciples, "Who do people say that the Son of Man is?" 14And they said, "Some say John the Baptist; and others, Elijah; but still others, Jeremiah, or one of the prophets." 15He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?" 16Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." 17And Jesus said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. (Matthew 16:13-17) This would include many more people than the SOF's typically include. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mommaduck Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 But He gave us the Scriptures so that we could point people to the truth outside of our own opinions. The apostles had no problem calling people out on their false doctrines, and furthermore they warned their audiences to contend for the faith and guard against false teachers who would try to infiltrate the Body. Whew, talk about a rabbit trail. A co-op is not "the body" nor a place that sits and picks apart people's doctrines. In fact, if it was, then the SOF's aren't covering enough particulars...because they leave out other differences between the people involved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrothead Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 This thread just. won't. die. :lol::lol::lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mommaduck Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 This thread just. won't. die. :lol::lol::lol: oops, sorry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xuzi Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 This thread just. won't. die. :lol::lol::lol: "I feel fine! I feel haaaaappyyyyyyyy!" [/Monty Python] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joanne Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 This thread just. won't. die. :lol::lol::lol: Please sign: I believe in the conception, birth and existence of the Well Trained Mind Board. I believe it exists in board form on earth, in spirit form in minds and has descended into hell (on occassion). I renouce my affiliation with and tie to certain threads. I align myself with what is homeschooling, what is proper, and what is worthy. By signing below, I grant that I embrace the above. X_________________________________________________ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry Goldwater Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 This thread just. won't. die. :lol::lol::lol: c'mon!!! 500 posts is just on the horizon! Go, go, go!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mommaduck Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 Please sign: I believe in the conception, birth and existence of the Well Trained Mind Board. I believe it exists in board form on earth, in spirit form in minds and has descended into hell (on occassion). I renouce my affiliation with and tie to certain threads. I align myself with what is homeschooling, what is proper, and what is worthy. By signing below, I grant that I embrace the above. X_________________________________________________ Love it! Signed, Mommaduck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karenciavo Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 I was just reading the thread killer thread the other day :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry Goldwater Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 I was just reading the thread killer thread the other day :lol: ...and...who killed it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karenciavo Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 (edited) Ultimately it was SWB :thumbdown: :lol: Edited February 15, 2011 by Karenciavo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justamouse Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 (I should note that Jews are most emphatically not without their own cage matches. They just don't generally look like these.) *snort* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JumpedIntoTheDeepEndFirst Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 Yes, but would you really preach to other's kids? I would think most people would not ever do that IMHO. I would think that is disrespectful to those other parents. Plus I would never ever preach or debate when I was a member of co-op that had differing beliefs than mine. I will offer to help pass out the crayons and glue or sit in the lounge while I wait for ds:D In the case of a group that goes to the zoo, does park days, has a field day, etc, when would you be preaching to someone's child? That's what I don't understand. And as was said in the very first page or two of the thread, couldn't you have a conduct code to avoid preaching to the children, if necessary? Sadly-in my limited experience it pervades everything. There are some folks who can't not say something as their faith/belief permeates every aspect of their lives. I've seen Jesus brought into the discussion during a game at a PE class by the instructor. It is not necessarily bad that these folks share their faith and I'm not saying they shouldn't; I am just saying that the SOF covers these situations and that there are groups that wouldn't want me to share my beliefs with them in so casual a manner. They just come right out and say it in an SOF. Does it suck when we can't join and we get lonely, of course it does. But not everyone in the world plays nicely together. There is no reason for them not to have such SOF based groups. Wouldn't it be even better if they let you know in the name of their group. It may seem like splitting hairs, but to call a group "Christian Homeschool Group of Houston," and then have an SOF that say's only this type "specific" form of Christianity is allowed. Wouldn't you feel a bit decieved and angry that someone took a word that defines you, but then said you don't qualify. Or even if you wouldn't feel that way, understand that others might?Now, I do think we are responsible for our feelings, we need to deal with our anger, but that doesn't mean these types of set-ups should go unchallenged. Then there's the the other issue of being in a rural area, but that horse has been beat :D! To be truly explicit about their beliefs how long would that name have to be? I don't think a name is enough space to get all the details some folks need. Add to this the fact that some groups do actually consider their version of Christianity the only acceptable version and their name may make sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrothead Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 Please sign: I believe in the conception, birth and existence of the Well Trained Mind Board. I believe it exists in board form on earth, in spirit form in minds and has descended into hell (on occassion). I renouce my affiliation with and tie to certain threads. I align myself with what is homeschooling, what is proper, and what is worthy. By signing below, I grant that I embrace the above. X_________________________________________________ Signed, Chucki the Parrothead. :lol::lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pqr Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 You claim I call PEOPLE clueless and callous rather than the responses. "A lot of these RESPONSES SEEM callous and clueless," is not the same as saying "pqr, you are clueless and callous." It's not *at all* the same thing. So, yes, you are taking it out of context AND twisting my words. Of course it is the same thing. People are judged by their words and what they say. If someone makes callous and clueless remarks then they are by definition callous and cllueless (in the area they spoke of) or they would not have made such remarks. When you say that the responses are callous and clueless you cast judgement on those individuals who made them. I stand by my comment that if you do not like a SOF then found your own group or do without. Given that I am fairly well versed in aspects of HSing and that I have refused to put my children in a co-op where I could not sign the SOF I know of what I speak. If you deem my response clueless then you deem me (in that area) clueless. Don't duck and weave, stand up for what you say. My skin is thick enough that I will not break under your words, but know that by calling responses callous and clueless you are calling the responders the same. There is no twisting of words but perhaps an attempt to recant? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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