Statement of Faith?

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

...because the founders of a particular group did not want to....simple as that.

 

If you don't like the rules, found your own group.

 

What is so hard about accepting that some people's values are different from others and that they want to associate with like minded people?

 

Why should a Catholic group not have a SOF referencing the Pope? As to not debating religion, that is up to them but perhaps they are TEACHING religion and want to do so. At that point a SOF is perfectly valid as it defines the group.

 

This debate has gone in circles but despite all the gnashing of teeth and complaining about the decisions of others no one has yet been able to make a balanced argument about why an independent group should bend to the will of those who would join but do not want to play by the rules. Such an argument needs to be based on logic not emotion.

 

I had no probelm following the rules of the group we were in:D Nor did I have a desire to change them:D

 

As for religion, of course, they are free to teach it but our co-op focused on the basics such as math, language arts, grammar, spelling, history, and science. The ground rules helped to prevent any issues.

 

IMHO for a group that might meet once a week, why not just stick to academics. IMHO homeschoolers are in many areas few and far between so why not try to stick together and be welcoming of other homeschoolers with rules:D

 

MY 2 cents:)

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

As for founding your own group, it is a great idea but again in many areas you might a group of one since all of the other homeschoolers are in an exclusive group:(

[Veritaserum]

This debate has gone in circles but despite all the gnashing of teeth and complaining about the decisions of others no one has yet been able to make a balanced argument about why an independent group should bend to the will of those who would join but do not want to play by the rules. Such an argument needs to be based on logic not emotion.

 

I don't see anyone saying that someone who wants to join a SoF group would ask or expect to change the group (barring the required signed SoF ;)). If I joined a SoF group that allowed people to join who didn't agree with all aspects of the SoF, I would not go around bad-mouthing or trying to change the things I did not agree with. If, for example, my children participated in a YEC-minded classical co-op, I would not have them take science at the co-op because we are not YEC. I also would not have my kids explain to the other children why we accept evolution. It would be rude of me/my kids to do so in that setting.

 

And I think the whole "you're not our exact same flavor of Christianity/religion so you don't share our values" thing is really off the mark....

[pqr]

I had no probelm following the rules of the group we were in:D Nor did I have a desire to change them:D

 

As for religion, of course, they are free to teach it but our co-op focused on the basics such as math, language arts, grammar, spelling, history, and science. The ground rules helped to prevent any issues.

 

IMHO for a group that might meet once a week, why not just stick to academics. IMHO homeschoolers are in many areas few and far between so why not try to stick together and be welcoming of other homeschoolers with rules:D

 

 

 

....because they do not want to.

 

You found a co-op you liked, wonderful, I am very glad of it but the rule's of your co-op obviously are not those of others.

 

One would assume that the question of doing as you suggest was discussed at the founding of any co-op and that in many cases the decision was made to be more exclusive. Why is this an issue?

[pqr]

I don't see anyone saying that someone who wants to join a SoF group would ask or expect to change the group (barring the required signed SoF ;)).

 

So the logic is we just want to change this "one little thing", at least this "one little thing" as a first step?

[Sevilla]

Honestly, sometimes a SOF doesn't require enthusiastic adherence to each principle, but rather that as part of the group you agree to not go against it while at the group.

 

An evangelical homeschool group's statement of faith is going to be Protestant, but most likely someone who is Catholic/EO and even Mormon would be able to join provided they won't contradict the SOF while at events/classes/coop for that group. But unless you sit down and ask the director's you'll view it as more exclusionary than it actually is (and again, this depends on each particular group).

[Britomart]

You know, it seems like there's two separate issues on this thread:

 

1) Whether one group/person has a right to their/his/her own definitions of who is or isn't a member of their religious group and,

2) Whether those definitions, if they're allowed to exist, should influence the formation of homeschooling groups.

 

Thanks to this discussion, I understand more why #2 is problematic in many communities, especially small ones. And, for my part, especially if we're just talking field trips and park days, I'd much rather be part of a diverse group. (I think the beliefs of teachers are more complicated, but that's been pretty well hashed through in this thread.)

 

But #1 bothers me. I don't understand the idea that anyone who "self-identifies" as a Christian should be accepted by every Christian group as a Christian. People can be wrong. People can be wrong and think others are wrong. People can be wrong about thinking others are wrong. :) And on and on.

 

I can think of lots of situations where someone thinks that he is something, but actually isn't. Sad ones, like people who think they're cancer-free when they're not. Funny ones, like a little kid who thinks her whole name really is "Betty Sweetie-Pie Smith" because that's what her grandma always calls her. Controversial ones, like people who think they're male when they're really female. (Or, if you take the other side, people who can't accept those people's view of themselves.)

 

Anyway, I see no reason to accept "self-identification" as the be-all and end-all. Is it a piece of data? Sure. But historically, especially in religion, there have been other markers. Adherence to certain doctrines being high on the list. Participation in certain rites also mattering. I'm sure there are more.

 

Anyway, I can accept that someone else thinks that self-identification is the highest form of data. But I don't agree, simply because I've seen people be mistaken too many times, and been mistaken too many times myself. We're not always who we think we are. We aren't always right. And we can't always expect others to take our word for it.

 

Though I think we certainly should expect consideration and respect for our persons, I don't think we can always expect the same for our opinions. Again, it comes down to: what do you do if you think the other person is wrong? Usually, I know, you can be quiet about it. But if the context is right (they ask you outright what you think, it's a public forum, etc.), are you supposed to lie and say you agree when you don't?

[pqr]

Honestly, sometimes a SOF doesn't require enthusiastic adherence to each principle, but rather that as part of the group you agree to not go against it while at the group.

 

An evangelical homeschool group's statement of faith is going to be Protestant, but most likely someone who is Catholic/EO and even Mormon would be able to join provided they won't contradict the SOF while at events/classes/coop for that group. But unless you sit down and ask the director's you'll view it as more exclusionary than it actually is (and again, this depends on each particular group).

 

On this point I have to agree with those who have an issue with an SOF. While I support the right to and even need for an SOF, I would be loathe to sign one (and would therefore not be in most co-ops) because if I put my signature to it then that is, giving my word, and I do not do that lightly. I certainly would not do that if I did not agree with the SOF in its entirety.

[JumpedIntoTheDeepEndFirst]

I guess I don't see the disconnect in this thread.

 

There are homeschooling groups that only want to have members who share a particular set of religious beliefs. They define those beliefs in their SOF. If you cannot sign the SOF honestly then they don't actually want you to join. It is that simple.

 

I can see dissatisfaction with this system in this thread in two areas:

 

1) Some folks dislike the fact that these groups typically, though not always or officially, refer to themselves as Christians or a Christian HS Group yet their SOF excludes many groups who would identify themselves as Christian. The problem here seems to be less with the idea of a HS group and more with the idea that a selective group of people have, for lack of a better word, hijacked the term Christian and defined it in such a way that it excludes other Christians.

 

For this there is no answer other than these folks might consider themselves the true Christians and don't believe anyone else is or that they consider their brand of Christianity to be their greatest unifying or identifying feature and don't wish to associate or have their kids associate with those who don't share their beliefs.

 

2) The hurt, upset and annoyance when the only groups in town that you could join exclude you based on their SOF and now you have no group to benefit from.

 

What can be said? They define themselves by their SOF, if you can't agree to it why would you want to join their group? Consider it a warning sign and move on. It is a shame that there aren't more educationally or activity focused groups rather than faith focused groups. For some reason most groups seem to have religion as their basis. You could analyze the homeschooling movement to discover why but that may be pointless. Ultimately the only answer is for more homeschoolers to take on the burden of beginning groups that are not rooted in an SOF. Until that time there is unlikely to be any change.

 

I have no dog in the fight, I've done most of my homeschooling with out the benefit of a group, co-op or other such club. There are many SOFs out there that I cannot sign as they aren't an expression of my branch of Christianity. I will not sign an SOF I do not believe in just to join.

 

The only honest answers are groups with an SOF only want members that agree to the SOF. There will be no inclusive/diverse/secular groups until more homeschoolers found them.

 

(This is much akin to the religious/secular curricula debates. There will be no all secular or all religion/denomination x curricula until someone writes them. The folks doing the writing seem happy with the status quo and so are many of the homeschool groups.)

[JumpedIntoTheDeepEndFirst]

I had no probelm following the rules of the group we were in:D Nor did I have a desire to change them:D

 

As for religion, of course, they are free to teach it but our co-op focused on the basics such as math, language arts, grammar, spelling, history, and science. The ground rules helped to prevent any issues.

 

IMHO for a group that might meet once a week, why not just stick to academics. IMHO homeschoolers are in many areas few and far between so why not try to stick together and be welcoming of other homeschoolers with rules:D

 

MY 2 cents:)

 

Because for many groups with an SOF these subjects are chuck full of religious implications and they wish to teach them through the prism of their religious beliefs.

 

Imagine the debate between young earth and old earth Christians in a science class...that could get ugly and that is why many groups use their SOF to influence their academic teachings.

[Veritaserum]

So the logic is we just want to change this "one little thing", at least this "one little thing" as a first step?

 

No, not a "first step". :001_rolleyes: There would be no ulterior motives to infiltrate the group and change its doctrine. :tongue_smilie: Guerilla homeschool mothers attack! :lol:

[silliness7]

It makes sense to me, different Christians believe very different things. That is why.

:iagree:

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

Because for many groups with an SOF these subjects are chuck full of religious implications and they wish to teach them through the prism of their religious beliefs.

 

Imagine the debate between young earth and old earth Christians in a science class...that could get ugly and that is why many groups use their SOF to influence their academic teachings.

 

Our group had a rule that we would not discuss or debate evolution or the age of the earth. I think they used Christian science materials though which I don't see as a problem since it was only for once a week. I had plenty of time to teach what I believe outside of co-o:D

 

Also, my ds is in a Christian school that the religious education I disagree with on many points to say the least. I teach ds to be respectful and not debate at school and to discuss any issues with me at home:D No problem:)

Edited February 12, 2011 by priscilla

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

No, not a "first step". :001_rolleyes: There would be no ulterior motives to infiltrate the group and change its doctrine. :tongue_smilie: Guerilla homeschool mothers attack! :lol:

 

:iagree: It would be just a chance to be with other homeschoolers and make friends seeing as I am open to making friends with others who hold differing beliefs:D

[silliness7]

Is it a Charlotte Mason group or a homeschool group? Why would a BJU'er want to joint a CM group? Wouldn't a BJU'er more thank likely want to join a homeschooling group than a CM specific group?

 

Because it's the only group in town. ;)

[JumpedIntoTheDeepEndFirst]

Our group had a rule that we would not discuss or debate evolution or the age of the earth. I think they used Christian science materials though which I don't see as a problem since it was only for once a week. I had plenty of time to teach what I believe outside of co-o:D

 

Also, my ds is in a Christian school that the religious education I disagree with on many points to say the least. I teach ds to be respectful and not debate at school and to discuss any issues with me at home:D No problem:)

 

The point with some groups isn't can you avoid such debates but rather that they don't want neutrality-they want a single viewpoint presented.

[JumpedIntoTheDeepEndFirst]

:iagree: It would be just a chance to be with other homeschoolers and make friends seeing as I am open to making friends with others who hold differing beliefs:D

 

The point is that they aren't open to meeting those folks. IF you don't agree they don't want YOU teaching or influencing THEIR kids.

 

Because it's the only group in town. ;)

 

So you would join any group just to join-even if they said things that were offensive to you or contradicted what you believe? Not all of us are willing to do that nor are we willing to lie on an SOF to seem as though we belong.

 

I've come to terms with not fitting some groups-even if they are the only game in town. I'm still not going to insist that they accept me on my terms. It's their group not mine.

[Plucky]

Actually, I have been on the other side of things.

 

I get that the OP was sad and frustrated and venting here. As usual, posts wander all over and become bigger than where they started, especially in matters of faith.

 

I have experienced the isolation of homeschooling in an area that has few groups nearby. And realized after a few visits that despite the fact that one was "the only act like it in town," that it would not be a good fit for our family. The funniest part about it was that it was an "all-inclusive" group that was actually surprisingly rigid with negative opinions for all that didn't fit their philosophies. Watching how they treated people, we decided to move on ... but it wasn't easy since there wasn't anything else at the time. I realize that it was our decision as opposed to a group SOF in our case.

 

While these are frustrating situations, I still agree with Sola's point. :001_smile:

 

Yep, the inclusive group was openly hostile to anyone Christian, and they made sure to find out who those people were and black ball them. We have had 3 very active secular hs groups and they've all imploded so many times. They keep starting new ones with new names.

 

I am a part of a SOF hs group, and there have been Christians of all denominations, including Catholics. We don't have to agree with the SOF, we can just sign that we don't agree with it but won't make it a big deal.

 

There are a lot of LDS/Mormon homeschool groups and a couple Catholic. I don't believe I would be welcome at either and it doesn't bother me. I have many Catholic and protestant friends that homeschool. I have friends that are new age or agnostic/atheists that homeschool. (I even babysat a friends kids so they could go to Obama's Inaugural Party downtown. I am not an Obama fan.)

 

I have met a ton of LDS/Mormon homeschoolers lately, and it has been very interesting. I don't feel like they are open to being friends that are different, and their young kids are so cute, they don't understand that someone can not be Mormon. Now I could be reading them wrong and they don't mind interacting with people outside their religion. Who knows?

 

I have mostly enjoyed my hs group. Lately, not so much. I have gone against the flow of some groups and am not as welcomed. That is okay, too.

 

I think problems in groups of people are pretty constant and that people get together in groups that have similar beliefs and opinions. When people that disagree have a lot of discord, some of it is normal, and some of it is pretty nasty (WTM anyone?). I think these groups try to head that off with SOFs or other policies, it doesn't work all the time though. :lol:

[Mrs Mungo]

Sola, that's all well and good when you live in a place permanently. My family moves and starts our life over every 2-3 years. That makes it very hard to start a group from scratch.

[silliness7]

My brother and sister both went to colleges which required the students to sign SOF in order to attend. (and not Bob Jones. :001_smile:)

SOF are not unique to the homeschooling world. To many Christians education and religion are fundamentally intertwined and cannot be separated. This is not comparmentalizing. It is exactly the opposite.

 

Many Christians think that you can compartmentalize English and Religion. One goes here, one goes over there. There is no reason that the two should need to mix. One does not inform the other. I can see why, if you think this, that the whole idea of exclusive education groups would not make any sense to you. But others operate under a different paradigm. There doesn't seem to be much grace or understanding in this thread for people living and breathing and homeschooling under that paradigm.

Edited February 12, 2011 by silliness7

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

The point is that they aren't open to meeting those folks. IF you don't agree they don't want YOU teaching or influencing THEIR kids.

 

Who said anything about teaching or influencing others kids? I would think trying to influence others kids would be disrespectful. Gee It would not bother me not to teach and be a helper:)

 

 

So you would join any group just to join-even if they said things that were offensive to you or contradicted what you believe? Not all of us are willing to do that nor are we willing to lie on an SOF to seem as though we belong.

 

Yes I would consider joining a group that I don't agree with on everything. The school my son goes to has a religion class that I mostly disagree with but the school has many other redeeming qualities to me. Gee who said anything about lying on a SOF? This is why I don't like them. I have no problem with having a SOF that one does not have to sign but just as a FYI even though I don't prefer them. I can see the value in groups that I may not necessarily agree with 100%. Of course, there may be some groups that I absolutely could not join but many of them I think I could and do it with respect:D

 

I've come to terms with not fitting some groups-even if they are the only game in town. I'm still not going to insist that they accept me on my terms. It's their group not mine.

 

Again who said anything about accepting me on my terms as if I intend to go in there and argue and debate with them? Again that would be disrespectful.

 

My 2 cents:)

[JumpedIntoTheDeepEndFirst]

My brother and sister both went to colleges which required the students to sign SOF in order to attend. (and not Bob Jones. :001_smile:)

SOF are not unique to the homeschooling world. To many Christians education and religion are fundamentally intertwined and cannot be separated. This is not comparmentalizing. It is exactly the opposite.

 

Many Christians think that you can compartmentalize English and Religion. One goes here, one goes over there. There is no reason that the two should need to mix. One does not inform the other. I can see why, if you think this, that the whole idea of exclusive education groups would not make any sense to you. But others operate under a different paradigm. There doesn't seem to be much grace or understanding in this thread for people living and breathing and homeschooling under that paradigm.

 

Ok-You've got me confused?

 

Are you saying that groups with an SOF are just honest and should be preserved/left alone or that groups with an SOF need to become all inclusive and compartmentalize more?

 

ETA: After you edited your post I'm even more confused...was this or wasn't this a response to my post?

Edited February 12, 2011 by JumpedIntoTheDeepEndFirst

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

Yep, the inclusive group was openly hostile to anyone Christian, and they made sure to find out who those people were and black ball them. We have had 3 very active secular hs groups and they've all imploded so many times. They keep starting new ones with new names.

 

 

 

IMHO these groups were not truly inclusive then. OTOH if a religious group came into an inclusive group and tried to make it a religious group that too would not be truly inclusive of them:)

[JumpedIntoTheDeepEndFirst]

Originally Posted by JumpedIntoTheDeepEndFirst

The point is that they aren't open to meeting those folks. IF you don't agree they don't want YOU teaching or influencing THEIR kids.

 

Who said anything about teaching or influencing others kids? I would think trying to influence others kids would be disrespectful. Gee It would not bother me not to teach and be a helper:)

 

 

So you would join any group just to join-even if they said things that were offensive to you or contradicted what you believe? Not all of us are willing to do that nor are we willing to lie on an SOF to seem as though we belong.

 

Yes I would consider joining a group that I don't agree with on everything. The school my son goes to has a religion class that I mostly disagree with but the school has many other redeeming qualities to me. Gee who said anything about lying on a SOF? This is why I don't like them. I have no problem with having a SOF that one does not have to sign but just as a FYI even though I don't prefer them. I can see the value in groups that I may not necessarily agree with 100%. Of course, there may be some groups that I absolutely could not join but many of them I think I could and do it with respect:D

 

I've come to terms with not fitting some groups-even if they are the only game in town. I'm still not going to insist that they accept me on my terms. It's their group not mine.

 

Again who said anything about accepting me on my terms as if I intend to go in there and argue and debate with them? Again that would be disrespectful.

My 2 cents:)

 

1)First, just being in the room as an adult is considered a mentor/leadership position. What you say or leave unsaid can be considered an influence on the kids.

 

2)My comment was predicated on those groups that have an SOF that must be signed as a condition of membership. Not those that have a non-binding SOF, if you will. To join a group with a binding SOF and not believe what they believe would, IMHO, be lying.

 

3)I'm just saying that a group with an SOF has a right to expect that it's members agree with the SOF. I am also saying that I, personally, am at peace with the fact that I do not fit the mold of most SOFs and I don't expect a group to redefine themselves to include me.

[silliness7]

Ok-You've got me confused?

 

Are you saying that groups with an SOF are just honest and should be preserved/left alone or that groups with an SOF need to become all inclusive and compartmentalize more?

 

I'm just saying that some people view the relationship between religion and education differently. From what I gather in the discussion at large is that when people respond with their opinion of SOF's they are responding from the way they view the relationship between religion and education and either think that 1) everyone one should view the relationship as they do or 2) assume that everyone else already does and SOF's are mean.

[Melinda in VT]

My brother and sister both went to colleges which required the students to sign SOF in order to attend. (and not Bob Jones. :001_smile:)

SOF are not unique to the homeschooling world. To many Christians education and religion are fundamentally intertwined and cannot be separated. This is not comparmentalizing. It is exactly the opposite.

 

Many Christians think that you can compartmentalize English and Religion. One goes here, one goes over there. There is no reason that the two should need to mix. One does not inform the other. I can see why, if you think this, that the whole idea of exclusive education groups would not make any sense to you. But others operate under a different paradigm. There doesn't seem to be much grace or understanding in this thread for people living and breathing and homeschooling under that paradigm.

 

Can you give me an example of how this looks? I have an English degree from a religious university, and looking back on it, I don't remember our religious beliefs coming into the discussion at all, really. I think the standards of the sponsoring church influenced the literature selections and the course offerings, but in class discussions were religion-free, as I remember.

 

And this definitely wasn't an institution that believed you should keep religion out of the classroom.

 

So, I'm curious. Can you give me an example of how religion comes into play in your English study? :bigear: :001_smile:

[Plucky]

IMHO these groups were not truly inclusive then. OTOH if a religious group came into an inclusive group and tried to make it a religious group that too would not be truly inclusive of them:)

 

That is true. They weren't really inclusive. I do need to say that the implosion of the inclusive homeschool groups are from disagreements among the agnostic/atheist members. I've heard really funny stories since I am friends with some people who have belonged. Homeschoolers are an opinionated bunch.

[pqr]

Homeschoolers are an opinionated bunch.

 

Say it is not so!!!!

[JumpedIntoTheDeepEndFirst]

I'm just saying that some people view the relationship between religion and education differently. From what I gather in the discussion at large is that when people respond with their opinion of SOF's they are responding from the way they view the relationship between religion and education and either think that 1) everyone one should view the relationship as they do or 2) assume that everyone else already does and SOF's are mean.

 

Thank you and good point. An SOF does often define this relationship.

[Plucky]

Say it is not so!!!!

 

I know it's hard to believe, pqr. Unfortunately, I've outed us. :D

[Britomart]

Can you give me an example of how this looks? I have an English degree from a religious university, and looking back on it, I don't remember our religious beliefs coming into the discussion at all, really. I think the standards of the sponsoring church influenced the literature selections and the course offerings, but in class discussions were religion-free, as I remember.

 

And this definitely wasn't an institution that believed you should keep religion out of the classroom.

 

So, I'm curious. Can you give me an example of how religion comes into play in your English study? :bigear: :001_smile:

 

I also have an English degree from a religious university, and one of the ways that our (mostly) shared religious views informed our discussion was that most of us thought there was such a thing as objective truth. In the classes where we had someone who didn't believe that, the discussion all of the sudden became vastly different!

 

Or think about the matter of author's intent, and how important you think that is. Religious people tend to give it a lot more weight, ime, I think largely because of the huge role religious texts play in our lives. That respect for texts and authors spills over into your average English class.

[Gretchen in NJ]

I truly wish that groups billing themselves as "non-denominational Christian" would keep their SOF's to what is contained in the Nicene Creed. If it's any more detailed than that, kindly call yourself a "non-denominational Protestant" or "Reformed" or "YEC's only" or what have you group. :glare:

:iagree:You have a good point here. I belong to a group which only has their leaders on the board sign the statement of faith, but anyone can join as long as they respect that the group is Christian. It is why I stopped helping and planning any activities for the group.

[Carol in Cal.]

You know, it's interesting--this thread has given me a lot of food for thought.

 

I had not previously considered the distinction between a SOF requirement for a coop vs. a field trip/social group. And actually, I do agree that it makes sense for the SOF to be more stringent for the coop. It's something that can also be addressed at the curriculum level, but it's really important to be clear about content upfront, one way or another. If I wanted no coverage of evolution, I would want to know that I was signing up for a group that felt the same way, or conversely if I wanted coverage of it. That's just one example, and there are a multitude of them.

 

Second major issue--secularism is not the same as inclusiveness. In a secular group people are pretty much enjoined from talking about faith issues, especially in a personal way. In an inclusive group, faith issues can come up but they reflect both diversity and tolerance or even embracing of differences.

 

I have gradually become sympathetic to the desire for Christian SOF's in groups over time with experience, which is quite contrary to my normal inclinations. This is because I have been in so many situations where a group is not what it says. A secular or inclusive group often tolerates/celebrates any faith BUT Christianity, as if Christianity is the one offensive religion. That gets old, and tiptoeing around in a secular group is exhausting after a while as a steady diet. The first time I attended a meeting of my Christian homeschooling moms' group, and they opened with prayer, it was such a relief to be able to do that that I actually teared up. It was a blessing to have Christianity and homeschooling in common and able to be expressed with these women.

 

I think that generally it serves Christianity poorly to separate from the rest of society too much, but when it comes to children, parents must do what they think is right FOR THEIR FAMILIES, and a little more guidance and isolation is both reasonable and necessary than it might be for adults. And, I would not want to be in a Christian group with psuedo-Christian sects, because I would not want those to be presented to my children as just alternative Christian denominations--that would be completely inconsistent with my own beliefs and that of the greater Christian community. I would be glad to be in a secular or inclusive group with psuedo-Christian sect members--that is different. If I make an affiliation based on shared faith, then I had better make sure that we actually do share that faith, even if we don't agree in every particular. And I affirm the rights of others to define that line differently than I do.

[Kate CA]

You know, it's interesting--this thread has given me a lot of food for thought.

 

I had not previously considered the distinction between a SOF requirement for a coop vs. a field trip/social group. And actually, I do agree that it makes sense for the SOF to be more stringent for the coop. It's something that can also be addressed at the curriculum level, but it's really important to be clear about content upfront, one way or another. If I wanted no coverage of evolution, I would want to know that I was signing up for a group that felt the same way, or conversely if I wanted coverage of it. That's just one example, and there are a multitude of them.

 

Second major issue--secularism is not the same as inclusiveness. In a secular group people are pretty much enjoined from talking about faith issues, especially in a personal way. In an inclusive group, faith issues can come up but they reflect both diversity and tolerance or even embracing of differences.

 

I have gradually become sympathetic to the desire for Christian SOF's in groups over time with experience, which is quite contrary to my normal inclinations. This is because I have been in so many situations where a group is not what it says. A secular or inclusive group often tolerates/celebrates any faith BUT Christianity, as if Christianity is the one offensive religion. That gets old, and tiptoeing around in a secular group is exhausting after a while as a steady diet. The first time I attended a meeting of my Christian homeschooling moms' group, and they opened with prayer, it was such a relief to be able to do that that I actually teared up. It was a blessing to have Christianity and homeschooling in common and able to be expressed with these women.

 

I think that generally it serves Christianity poorly to separate from the rest of society too much, but when it comes to children, parents must do what they think is right FOR THEIR FAMILIES, and a little more guidance and isolation is both reasonable and necessary than it might be for adults. And, I would not want to be in a Christian group with psuedo-Christian sects, because I would not want those to be presented to my children as just alternative Christian denominations--that would be completely inconsistent with my own beliefs and that of the greater Christian community. I would be glad to be in a secular or inclusive group with psuedo-Christian sect members--that is different. If I make an affiliation based on shared faith, then I had better make sure that we actually do share that faith, even if we don't agree in every particular. And I affirm the rights of others to define that line differently than I do.

 

This is an excellent post. I agree completely. Thanks for sharing it. :001_smile:

[Mrs Mungo]

I had not previously considered the distinction between a SOF requirement for a coop vs. a field trip/social group. And actually, I do agree that it makes sense for the SOF to be more stringent for the coop. It's something that can also be addressed at the curriculum level, but it's really important to be clear about content upfront, one way or another. If I wanted no coverage of evolution, I would want to know that I was signing up for a group that felt the same way, or conversely if I wanted coverage of it. That's just one example, and there are a multitude of them.

 

The only group where I've been involved in a co-op was a Christian group that did not require a SOF. We did not all share the same ideas about creation (old earth v. young earth, it was about half and half). We did a history co-op together. However, we came together, decided on a curriculum (SOTW), and went with what the curriculum said. It was jointly decided ahead of time that any further discussion would not take place within the co-op class, that could be done at home.

 

Later, I did a high school level class with some of the same moms. Again, we decided on a curriculum and went with what the curriculum said. However, at that point, even the YEC moms were aware that their kids would need to know what scientists/historians believed, even if the moms disagreed. This worked well in my experience and obviously the moms were happy with it, or they would not have done it a second time.

 

Obviously, science is more tricky. BUT, I have also done science classes at my house with YEC moms. We just sort of glossed over those sort of issues. You can make impressions to show how fossils are made without discussing how long you believe the process takes. That can be done at a separate time.

 

Honestly? The key is everyone trusting and respecting each other. I guess I've been lucky that my experiences have been good, but I chose my groups carefully.

 

Second major issue--secularism is not the same as inclusiveness. In a secular group people are pretty much enjoined from talking about faith issues, especially in a personal way. In an inclusive group, faith issues can come up but they reflect both diversity and tolerance or even embracing of differences.

 

I have gradually become sympathetic to the desire for Christian SOF's in groups over time with experience, which is quite contrary to my normal inclinations. This is because I have been in so many situations where a group is not what it says. A secular or inclusive group often tolerates/celebrates any faith BUT Christianity, as if Christianity is the one offensive religion. That gets old, and tiptoeing around in a secular group is exhausting after a while as a steady diet. The first time I attended a meeting of my Christian homeschooling moms' group, and they opened with prayer, it was such a relief to be able to do that that I actually teared up. It was a blessing to have Christianity and homeschooling in common and able to be expressed with these women.

 

I've been a member of an inclusive group (a truly inclusive group) and a lot of non-denominational Christian groups without a SOF requirement. I never had the experience of secular moms being actively anti-religion. Only once was I ever even friends with someone like that, and she was a cultural Jew who wasn't really practicing.

 

I think that generally it serves Christianity poorly to separate from the rest of society too much, but when it comes to children, parents must do what they think is right FOR THEIR FAMILIES, and a little more guidance and isolation is both reasonable and necessary than it might be for adults. And, I would not want to be in a Christian group with psuedo-Christian sects, because I would not want those to be presented to my children as just alternative Christian denominations--that would be completely inconsistent with my own beliefs and that of the greater Christian community. I would be glad to be in a secular or inclusive group with psuedo-Christian sect members--that is different. If I make an affiliation based on shared faith, then I had better make sure that we actually do share that faith, even if we don't agree in every particular. And I affirm the rights of others to define that line differently than I do.

 

I guess I just don't really understand the difference. I have been a member of Christian groups with Mormons, Catholics, etc. But, it's not like we talked doctrine at meetings or that the kids talked doctrine among themselves. I'm just confused as to what that would look like. Either way some people consider themselves Christians who are not Christians to other people. That's something you discuss at home with your kids.

[ocelotmom]

I've been a member of an inclusive group (a truly inclusive group) and a lot of non-denominational Christian groups without a SOF requirement. I never had the experience of secular moms being actively anti-religion. Only once was I ever even friends with someone like that, and she was a cultural Jew who wasn't really practicing.

Same here. The "secular" group I used to be a part of had several Christians (and members of various non-Christian religions), and it wasn't an issue. I did hear plenty of anti-Conservative sentiment within this group, but nothing specifically anti-Christian.

 

I hope Christians join our fledgling inclusive group.

 

I've been thinking about the SoF issue in areas where there isn't much choice of groups for homeschooling families. Several people have mentioned knowing others who didn't agree with the SoF joining the group anyways for whatever benefts it provided. It seems to me that, in areas where there isn't a lot of choice, a mandatory statement of faith (as opposed to a standard of behavior) may select for unscrupulous inviduals, as those with enough honesty and integrity to not sign something they don't believe won't sign.

[Mrs Mungo]

I've been thinking about the SoF issue in areas where there isn't much choice of groups for homeschooling families. Several people have mentioned knowing others who didn't agree with the SoF joining the group anyways for whatever benefts it provided. It seems to me that, in areas where there isn't a lot of choice, a mandatory statement of faith (as opposed to a standard of behavior) may select for unscrupulous inviduals, as those with enough honesty and integrity to not sign something they don't believe won't sign.

 

Or people who don't really take their beliefs seriously? Who don't think about them? That is a possibility. I was once a member of a group that did not require a SOF for members, but did for teachers and board members. People were *always* trying to get me to sign the SOF so that I could be in charge of more things. But, I could not sign it, I take those things seriously. There were several people who did not understand why I didn't just sign it.

[weaver_67579]

And, I don't understand why every thing must be for every body. Why are people supposed to compromise their values just so someone doesn't get their feelings hurt? Have people become so infantile that they have to have a part of every. little. thing. or they throw a fit and scream about how unfair it all is? And, why in the world would anyone want to be part of a group that holds different values and wants like-minded people in it? This makes no sense to me. I won't allow someone in my home who would influence my dd in a way that's counter to my values. Why in the world would I want to force myself into a group and make them accept me if we're just totally different? That's awkward for everyone.

 

 

It is not that they don't have the right to have whatever kind of group they want. Around here-my personal experience is that the Christian groups were not always up-front about their requirements. The one said you could belong but not sign the SOF but then gave me the run-around for months. why not just say we do not accept United Methodists or people who do not believe in literal Bible interpretation or whatever reason(s) they failed to accept me. I would have had no issue with them if they were completely up front.

 

I also have a personal problem with folks assuming I would try and indoctrinate their kids in areas we don't agree. I personally would consider it rude to "preach" to someone's kids and would consider it rude for someone to do it to mine. Just because someone does not have identical views on stuff-does not mean they will try and counter your parenting. I find the "everyone not like me is out to get me" kind of paranoid. The OP mentioned it being a Christian group-and wasn't she self-identified as Christian? I would hardly consider that "totally different" In fact-I would guess more similarity than differences. I also don't "get" having such hangups on a few differences when there are so many things in common.....

 

Don't misunderstand. I'm not talking about groups that are hostile and intentionally hurtful (but even if a group was, why would you want to be there anyway?), but if a group says up front, "Here's what we believe and we want to be a group that believes XYZ" why in the world get mad that you're not a good fit? Move on or create a group yourself.

 

 

I wouldn't want to be part of a group like that-but not all groups are that up-front. I had my issues when I moved to a new area-I did't know anyone else that homeschooled then. Startig a new group myself right then would not have been possible for me-it's a nice idea, but not for everyone's situation. BTW a neighbor did start a new group and I was one of the first members. I love the inclusive group-based on homeschooling-not religious preference. I am definitely ok with my United Methodist-Christian kids hanging with folks of other faiths-Christian or not and have never had an issue with anyone "indoctrinating" them. If I did-like I can't teach my kids what we believe anyway-and that others don't always have the same views....life goes on.

 

 

Anyway, I just don't get the "everyone must accept ME ME ME but I'm allowed to be disparaging toward others if I don't like them" mentality

.

 

I didn't take that from the OP's post.

[Mrs Mungo]

It is not that they don't have the right to have whatever kind of group they want. Around here-my personal experience is that the Christian groups were not always up-front about their requirements. The one said you could belong but not sign the SOF but then gave me the run-around for months. why not just say we do not accept United Methodists or people who do not believe in literal Bible interpretation or whatever reason(s) they failed to accept me. I would have had no issue with them if they were completely up front.

 

And this can be a real problem for people who move a lot. I've seen a group like this, that aren't upfront, they just have you fill out an application and they accept or reject you without telling you why. For example, one family who had recently moved was rejected, despite being fundamentalist Christians. Another member told her it was probably because they had not been members of their "home church" for long enough. Well, that just sucks for people who move a lot.

 

I don't think a lot of people here are understanding the many different guises under which this appears or the various situations that preclude just starting a new group. When I had moved to NC the first time my dh immediately deployed. I had a 5 year old, a 3 year old and a 1 year old. I had just moved from a place where I had 8 volunteer jobs that I parceled out to 6 different people when I left. I was burned out, I was stressed, I had no time or energy to make my own group. I'm sorry, but a lot of responses just seem callous and clueless about the various life situations people find themselves in.

Edited February 13, 2011 by Mrs Mungo

[OnTheBrink]

You know, life ain't perfect and you can't always have what you want. Callous? Maybe, but that's reality. Things don't always go the way you want them to. People don't always bend to your way of thinking. Sometimes, reality sucks. It's just life.

[Mama Geek]

It all comes back to the groups having the freedom to decided what they want to be. I do think the groups should be up front about their SOF and what they are and if they have to be signed.

 

Even if they are the only group in town, they have the right to be what they want to be and accept the people that they want to accept (there is nothing wrong or immoral about that). It doesn't matter whether it is social or academic. If you want something different you can start it yourself or do without IMO. There are plenty of places to meet people and there is nothing that says you can't be friends with people in a group that you can't be part of.

 

Yes, I would be aggravated if I invested time in a group and didn't know there was a SOF and it wasn't something I was willing to sign if needed.

[ciyates]

I used to have a real problem with SOF but after seeing groups torn apart because they did not have one, I have changed my opinion. We are a military family and have moved a lot. We have been apart of many, many groups. Currently the best co op in our area requires me to sign a SOF that I don't agree with so unfortunately we are not apart of it.

 

We are apart of a Christian co-op that requires a SOF and a secular one that does not. The first runs much smoother than the second.

 

For what it is worth I have yet to see a truly inclusive co-op.

[Melinda in VT]

I also have an English degree from a religious university, and one of the ways that our (mostly) shared religious views informed our discussion was that most of us thought there was such a thing as objective truth. In the classes where we had someone who didn't believe that, the discussion all of the sudden became vastly different!

 

Or think about the matter of author's intent, and how important you think that is. Religious people tend to give it a lot more weight, ime, I think largely because of the huge role religious texts play in our lives. That respect for texts and authors spills over into your average English class.

 

Thank you for this response. It made me think.

 

I'm not convinced that a lack of religious belief = a lack of belief in objective truth or a disregard for the author's intent, but I can see how those things might be more common if you don't believe in a diety.

 

And neither of those points seem to support excluding Jews, Muslims, or less orthodox Christian groups.

[Smithie]

Sorry, I couldn't read all of the twelve pages intervening, but I wanted to address this:

 

Parrothead wrote:

 

"Yes, the Christian group has the right to exclude the Jewish family, but does that make it right?

 

That is where people have problems with SOFs."

 

And somebody else responded:

 

But why does it make it wrong? Again, I'm not talking about being hostile to anyone. But if I want to start a group that does XYZ, why am I wrong to not include people who want to do LMNOP? If the purpose of my group is to accomplish ABC, why would I want people who's agenda is DEF?

 

... my experience with this has been that the objective/agenda/purpose of my super-duper-fundamentalist homeschool group is To Educate And Socialize The Children. Coincidentally, this is also my goal. I belong to a different religion, but that doesn't mean I have a different agenda for the co-op! Good grief!

 

My son is learning secular 1st grade content and a lot of Jesus stories. When I substitute in his class, I read Torah stories or secular stories. My high school literature class is covering Beowulf to Virginia Woolf, and so far my only possibly-contentious insertion has been to assure them that there is not a massive Catholic conspiracy to take over the governments of the world - and that was more of a scholarly opinion than a Jewish opinion. :lol:

 

Really, it's just. not. a. problem. for people of different religions to learn together, as long as everybody is respectful. Exclusionary (as opposed to informative) SOFs just boggle my mind. If I'm willing for my child to hear the Jesus stories, then I don't see how our presence is polluting.

 

I've been involved with another co-op headed by a JW, and I wanted to give a shout-out in that direction: having been on the receiving end of discrimination and exclusion because of her faith, she did an AWESOME job of creating a co-op environment where the conduct and content was acceptable to conservative Protestants, but those of all faiths (and no faith) were able to participate fully.

[unsinkable]

Sorry, I couldn't read all of the twelve pages intervening, but I wanted to address this:

 

Parrothead wrote:

 

"Yes, the Christian group has the right to exclude the Jewish family, but does that make it right?

 

That is where people have problems with SOFs."

 

And somebody else responded:

 

But why does it make it wrong? Again, I'm not talking about being hostile to anyone. But if I want to start a group that does XYZ, why am I wrong to not include people who want to do LMNOP? If the purpose of my group is to accomplish ABC, why would I want people who's agenda is DEF?

 

... my experience with this has been that the objective/agenda/purpose of my super-duper-fundamentalist homeschool group is To Educate And Socialize The Children. Coincidentally, this is also my goal. I belong to a different religion, but that doesn't mean I have a different agenda for the co-op! Good grief!

 

My son is learning secular 1st grade content and a lot of Jesus stories. When I substitute in his class, I read Torah stories or secular stories. My high school literature class is covering Beowulf to Virginia Woolf, and so far my only possibly-contentious insertion has been to assure them that there is not a massive Catholic conspiracy to take over the governments of the world - and that was more of a scholarly opinion than a Jewish opinion. :lol:

 

Really, it's just. not. a. problem. for people of different religions to learn together, as long as everybody is respectful. Exclusionary (as opposed to informative) SOFs just boggle my mind. If I'm willing for my child to hear the Jesus stories, then I don't see how our presence is polluting.

 

I've been involved with another co-op headed by a JW, and I wanted to give a shout-out in that direction: having been on the receiving end of discrimination and exclusion because of her faith, she did an AWESOME job of creating a co-op environment where the conduct and content was acceptable to conservative Protestants, but those of all faiths (and no faith) were able to participate fully.

 

That's funny, but then again...a person who needs to hear that probably wouldn't believe you anyway.

[Parrothead]

Sorry, I couldn't read all of the twelve pages intervening, but I wanted to address this:

 

Parrothead wrote:

 

"Yes, the Christian group has the right to exclude the Jewish family, but does that make it right?

 

That is where people have problems with SOFs."

 

And somebody else responded:

 

But why does it make it wrong? Again, I'm not talking about being hostile to anyone. But if I want to start a group that does XYZ, why am I wrong to not include people who want to do LMNOP? If the purpose of my group is to accomplish ABC, why would I want people who's agenda is DEF?

 

... my experience with this has been that the objective/agenda/purpose of my super-duper-fundamentalist homeschool group is To Educate And Socialize The Children. Coincidentally, this is also my goal. I belong to a different religion, but that doesn't mean I have a different agenda for the co-op! Good grief!

 

My son is learning secular 1st grade content and a lot of Jesus stories. When I substitute in his class, I read Torah stories or secular stories. My high school literature class is covering Beowulf to Virginia Woolf, and so far my only possibly-contentious insertion has been to assure them that there is not a massive Catholic conspiracy to take over the governments of the world - and that was more of a scholarly opinion than a Jewish opinion. :lol:

 

Really, it's just. not. a. problem. for people of different religions to learn together, as long as everybody is respectful. Exclusionary (as opposed to informative) SOFs just boggle my mind. If I'm willing for my child to hear the Jesus stories, then I don't see how our presence is polluting.

 

I've been involved with another co-op headed by a JW, and I wanted to give a shout-out in that direction: having been on the receiving end of discrimination and exclusion because of her faith, she did an AWESOME job of creating a co-op environment where the conduct and content was acceptable to conservative Protestants, but those of all faiths (and no faith) were able to participate fully.

Shhhhhhh... we are trying to keep that on the down low.

 

 

 

:lol::lol::lol::lol: Seriously, people believe that? No wonder I have to sit at the back of the bus.

[Xuzi]

Shhhhhhh... we are trying to keep that on the down low.

 

 

 

:lol::lol::lol::lol: Seriously, people believe that? No wonder I have to sit at the back of the bus.

There's people who believe that about Mormons too. :glare: I heard it spouted a lot when Romney was running for president. Wouldn't want to give the Mormon church a "toe hold" in taking over the greatest nation on earth.

[unsinkable]

There's people who believe that about Mormons too. :glare: I heard it spouted a lot when Romney was running for president. Wouldn't want to give the Mormon church a "toe hold" in taking over the greatest nation on earth.

 

You know what, we should band together.

 

You have missionaries all over the world.

 

We have missionaries all over the world.

 

We just need to arm them. :lol:

[Xuzi]

You know what, we should band together.

 

You have missionaries all over the world.

 

We have missionaries all over the world.

 

We just need to arm them. :lol:

Are their guns you can fire safely from the back from a bicycle? :tongue_smilie:

[unsinkable]

Are their guns you can fire safely from the back from a bicycle? :tongue_smilie:

 

OMGoodness! SO funny!

 

I know that during the airdrop part of D-Day some of the soldiers jumped out of planes with collapsible bikes.