Why so many physicians are foreigner?

[LibraryLover]

:)

 

One reason I have difficulty with the pat phrases "Americans are all xxxxxxx" , or "The Standard American Diet is xxxxxxxx", I think, "That makes no sense; America is all of us.

 

That's what I think - people from all over the world come here because the weather is good.:D

 

However, I used to live near Chapel Hill, NC and the various nationalities represented there is amazing. The dc and I were at the lake one day and there were other families there with children and everyone was playing together. There was a middle eastern family, a pakastani family, a "redneck" family, an African American family, a Latino family, and mine. I sat there thinking, "Only in America!":D We were all different in various ways, but yet we were all the same - families hanging out by the lake on a hot Sunday.

Edited January 14, 2011 by LibraryLover

[Medieval Mom]

And, of course, how can you *tell* when someone *is* a foreigner?

 

My dh is a foreigner by all definitions. He's a legal alien. However, he's had numerous people engage in conversations with him about "the problem with all these foreigners." :lol: Oh dear! I wonder if the people at work even know? Of course, so many people at his work are foreigners, too. Aren't we all? (Well, my family came here 300-ish years ago, but we're not native to this land. ;))

 

About accents... Once, at the dentist's office, the dental hygienist finished with my teeth, then walked away for a moment. In the meantime, the dentist was making small talk, asking about dh, etc. I told him dh came from x-country, just as the hygienist was returning. She turned to me and said, "Oh! No wonder you have an accent! I noticed that right away!" :tongue_smilie: Umm... I was born and bred 30 miles from here. :lol:

 

At any rate, this is the U.S.A. Aren't we proud of being a fantastic mix of people? Think of all the accents our forefathers had when they came! In memory of them, let's be respectful of all people who chose to come AND WORK, LEGALLY ;), in this country! :)

[Jean in Newcastle]

And, of course, how can you *tell* when someone *is* a foreigner?

 

My dh is a foreigner by all definitions. He's a legal alien. However, he's had numerous people engage in conversations with him about "the problem with all these foreigners." :lol: Oh dear! I wonder if the people at work even know? Of course, so many people at his work are foreigners, too. Aren't we all? (Well, my family came here 300-ish years ago, but we're not native to this land. ;))

 

About accents... Once, at the dentist's office, the dental hygienist finished with my teeth, then walked away for a moment. In the meantime, the dentist was making small talk, asking about dh, etc. I told him dh came from x-country, just as the hygienist was returning. She turned to me and said, "Oh! No wonder you have an accent! I noticed that right away!" :tongue_smilie: Umm... I was born and bred 30 miles from here. :lol:

 

At any rate, this is the U.S.A. Aren't we proud of being a fantastic mix of people? Think of all the accents our forefathers had when they came! In memory of them, let's be respectful of all people who chose to come AND WORK, LEGALLY ;), in this country! :)

 

Hear! Hear!

[Medieval Mom]

Hear! Hear!

 

:)

[Renee in NC]

And, of course, how can you *tell* when someone *is* a foreigner?

 

My dh is a foreigner by all definitions. He's a legal alien. However, he's had numerous people engage in conversations with him about "the problem with all these foreigners." :lol: Oh dear! I wonder if the people at work even know? Of course, so many people at his work are foreigners, too. Aren't we all? (Well, my family came here 300-ish years ago, but we're not native to this land. ;))

 

About accents... Once, at the dentist's office, the dental hygienist finished with my teeth, then walked away for a moment. In the meantime, the dentist was making small talk, asking about dh, etc. I told him dh came from x-country, just as the hygienist was returning. She turned to me and said, "Oh! No wonder you have an accent! I noticed that right away!" :tongue_smilie: Umm... I was born and bred 30 miles from here. :lol:

 

:lol: I think we have all had those "foot in mouth" moments!:tongue_smilie: Technically I am German and Scotch-Irish. My grandmother's grandparents came here in the late 1800s.

 

At any rate, this is the U.S.A. Aren't we proud of being a fantastic mix of people? Think of all the accents our forefathers had when they came! In memory of them, let's be respectful of all people who chose to come AND WORK, LEGALLY ;), in this country! :)

 

Am I being disrespectful? If so, what specifically is disrespectful? (Sincere questions and PM me if you would rather.)

[Jean in Newcastle]

Am I being disrespectful? If so, what specifically is disrespectful? (Sincere questions and PM me if you would rather.)

 

I don't feel like going back to see who said what, but I find it disrespectful to call American citizens, no matter how recent they might be, "foreigners". The whole point of an immigrant nation is that once you become a citizen, you belong.

[sleepymommy]

 

At any rate, this is the U.S.A. Aren't we proud of being a fantastic mix of people? Think of all the accents our forefathers had when they came! In memory of them, let's be respectful of all people who chose to come AND WORK, LEGALLY ;), in this country! :)

 

:cheers2: to that!

 

 

Am I being disrespectful? If so, what specifically is disrespectful? (Sincere questions and PM me if you would rather.)

 

I don't think you've been disrespectful. Just discussing your views, just as we all are.:001_smile:

 

I don't feel like going back to see who said what, but I find it disrespectful to call American citizens, no matter how recent they might be, "foreigners". The whole point of an immigrant nation is that once you become a citizen, you belong.

 

:cheers2: to that too!

[Trish]

I think you have to get your Florida license to practice within the first 10 years of becoming a doctor. Otherwise they won't let you practice there.

[*Jessica*]

Well, I live in the Northeast and all of my doctors are white and native born, including my dentist. I wouldn't have a problem with a foreign born doctor, but hasn't happened for me.

I'm also in the Northeast and almost all of our family doctors are white and, I assume, American-born. Those that I don't know the background of and may not be American don't advertise the fact and not one of them has any sort of accent that would lead me to think they may have been born in another country. Not that it would matter a bit to me in any case.

 

Our last doctor (he was my favorite general practioner ever, but he moved his practice) was born in India but he is an American, not a foreigner. :tongue_smilie:

Our optometrist is a white American male, dentist is a white American female, obstetricians are two white American males and one white American female, family doctor's office consists of a bunch of white American males and females and one Russian male.

 

Frankly, a little ethnic diversity would be welcome!

[mcconnellboys]

There are lots in smaller towns, where amounts earned are less. There are lots here in walk-in clinics....

[Brigitte]

I think a lot is going to depend on location. Around here, most doctors are US born, but Charlottesville there was a large population of foreign born doctors. I do know that my dad immigrated to the US from Belgium as a physician because he was frustrated by the system of socialized medicine. He had previously come to the US for his residency and again for some training in his specialty, but it was not until he was finished with all his schooling, training, etc. that he decided to move to the US permanently.

[Medieval Mom]

:lol: I think we have all had those "foot in mouth" moments!:tongue_smilie: Technically I am German and Scotch-Irish. My grandmother's grandparents came here in the late 1800s.

 

Am I being disrespectful? If so, what specifically is disrespectful? (Sincere questions and PM me if you would rather.)

 

Good heavens, no! I wasn't referring to anyone or any post! I'm sorry if it read that way. :)

[nd293]

This is an observation based on the Australian situation, but it might be applicable - it can be difficult to get medical practitioners to work in outlying areas, so qualified immigrants can get in more easily if they are willing to sign contracts to work in these areas. The geographic requirement doesn't last forever, or course, so after a few years the immigrant could move to whichever part of the country they choose. You are left, of course, with an outlying area that might need another immigrant to fill their medical needs. (In Australia this doesn't only apply to the medical field, but to any field where there is a shortage in a regional area).

[workingmom]

You weren't being offensive. I do understand what you are saying. I just wonder at what point do people who live and work in this country lose the foreign title.

 

Five generations of my family are here and because I have a "foreign" name and am "brown" I'm still considered foreign.

 

To put some light on why we do see many foreign;) doctors here. I know that for my husband, from Pakistan, had pretty much had two career options. Engineer or doctor. In countries like Pakistan, and I assume other economically challenged areas, there is a lot of pressure because if you don't do well the alternative is living a pretty bleak life. Education and jobs are the only things that keep you afloat and the understanding is that there are only a few fields of study that can offer that.

 

 

Lesley

 

Being a 4th generation physician, let me comment. In order for immigrants to come to this country from at least the Indian subcontient you must be highly educated. Many foreign doctors you see here, contrary to what has been posted don't go to medical school here because having gone to school here (since I was born and raised here) its tooo darn expensive. Plus with state residency requirements,foreign students can't really attend. So in reality most of the "foreign" doctors with "accents" actually went to medical school in their own countries with merit based schools (ie the got in bc they are brilliant)and then came here to do residency as the pp posted. Many residency spots go unfilled, aren't great programs, etc. So the foreign docs will take them and often practice in the boonies since the gov't can't get "us" American docs to live out there.

 

Having gone to an FL medical school the majority (greater than 80% of the class was Caucasian) yes the majority of non whites were Asian but not foreign (ie they were born here). We were the first class to 50/50 male /female but I have no idea where they pp stated that 50% are foreign and I even interviewed at Hopkins and that wasn't the case.

[Jean in Newcastle]

I talked to dh tonight about this thread. He is a foreign born (gasp!) medical professional who is a US citizen. You cannot practice medicine in the United States without passing a Medical licensing test which is in 3 parts. You do not have to be a US citizen but you do have to have a hospital willing to sponsor you in order to get your working visa. The first time pass rate for foreign educated doctors (according to Wikipedia) is 78% compared to 95% for American educated doctors. The test itself costs just under $3000 to take. There are many people who were doctors in their native countries who are in other professions in U.S. because they either cannot pass the test or cannot afford to take it. I've met cab drivers and auto mechanics who were trained as doctors in their native country. My dh has medical technicians working for him who were trained as doctors.

[Mrs Mungo]

Actually it means not born American. Many of us were born overseas but were born naturalized US Citizens. ;) Just being nit-picky!

 

Dawn

 

I think this may depend upon specific circumstances? Two of my kids were born in Germany (in German hospitals). They have certificates of birth abroad, not any kind of naturalization certificates. They were citizens at birth, they were not naturalized.

Edited January 15, 2011 by Mrs Mungo

[DawnM]

It isn't about birth certificates. It is about whether your children were born as American citizens. Passports and birth certificates will still state location of birth. It is a title/label, not a certificate to which I am referring.

 

Dawn

 

I think this may depend upon specific circumstances? Two of my kids were born in Germany (in German hospitals). They have certificates of birth abroad, not any kind of naturalization certificates.

[Ottakee]

My girls have seen lots of specialists through the years.

 

Next week are are seeing a mitochondrial specialist in Detroit and hoping to get a referral to Cleveland Clinic for yet another specialist. I believe one doctor is from Bangledesh and the other Pakistan. They obviously KNOW their stuff.

 

I do have a bit of trouble with them. Part of it is due to their very thick accents. I can usually get most of it but it is very hard for my special needs kids to understand what they are asking.

 

I think the other part that plays a role here is that they are so brilliant and the topic of conversation so specialized that they are using terminology that mere mortals would have trouble understanding no matter the accent or lack of it. After all, my 15dd has a combination of mito disorders that has no other known cases in the world.

 

I can see that the accent could be an issue for the elderly, those with hearing or language issues, special needs, etc. Maybe the doctors then could have a nurse in the room full time to help make sure everything is very clear.

[Slartibartfast]

We have only really had one Dr that was not American and that was the Dr that was ds' main Dr when he was in the NICU. He was from Ghana.

 

He first met ds as a newborn when the hospital he was born in called for a consult from the Children's Hospital. He immediately thought ds had a certain genetic condition. Six months later we received the genetic test results and he was right.

 

So, IMO he is a good Dr.

[Mrs Mungo]

It isn't about birth certificates. It is about whether your children were born as American citizens. Passports and birth certificates will still state location of birth. It is a title/label, not a certificate to which I am referring.

 

Dawn

 

I quoted you, but I was wondering about Jean's situation at birth v the situation of my kids.

[Mrs Mungo]

I guess I am not sure what is going on in this thread. Some people seem to be talking about foreign-born doctors while others are going by names and photos. My son's doctor is of Chinese heritage, but he's not an immigrant. Our pediatrician back in NC was named Gupta, but she wasn't an immigrant either. Funnily, our (non-military) pediatrician in Germany was from Missouri. :P

[Jean in Newcastle]

I think this may depend upon specific circumstances? Two of my kids were born in Germany (in German hospitals). They have certificates of birth abroad, not any kind of naturalization certificates. They were citizens at birth, they were not naturalized.

 

I went and looked in the fireproof safe to make sure I was giving correct information. I wasn't correct. I have a birth certificate made out by the hospital in Japan, another birth certificate made out by the embassy and a certificate of birth abroad. My dh has a naturalization certificate. I think I got confused because I'm always the one holding all the papers when we go abroad. Mea culpa and I'm sorry for my misrepresentation of the facts.

[kalanamak]

I have a birth certificate made out by the hospital in Japan, another birth certificate made out by the embassy and a certificate of birth abroad.

 

We were beginning to wonder about you, Jean.

[Jean in Newcastle]

We were beginning to wonder about you, Jean.

 

You've met me. You know how wacky I am.:D And since it is documented fact that my brain is swiss cheese, my lapses were not due to trying to deceive. (Ooo, that sort of rhymes!)

[sewingmama]

It's a similar situation here in Australia - with both doctors and nurses. The main reason for it being that we are not producing enough doctors/nurses of our own and so we import them. ;)

[Hannah]

It's a similar situation here in Australia - with both doctors and nurses. The main reason for it being that we are not producing enough doctors/nurses of our own and so we import them. ;)

 

And we loose well trained doctors to Australia and other (predominantly English speaking) countries because of better working conditions, better pay (they have big student loans) and the hope of a safer and better life for their children. In spite of a failing public health system, the training here is still very rigorous and good. The doctors are well prepared to take exams elsewhere and also have very good practical experience by the time they graduate.

 

Our training is different than the USA. School leaving results are used for screening into med school. Candidates then need to score well on an entrance exam. They do a 6-year degree (with patient care starting in year three) and earn an MBChB degree. They then have a two year internship and one year of community service before being able to register. The community service is often in rural hospitals and in some cases the newly graduated doctor is te only doctor on staff! There are quite a number who leave before the community service year. Although they earn salaries from the internernship year, it is low paying, as is the community service year.

[Lolly]

I think a lot is going to depend on location. Around here, most doctors are US born, but Charlottesville there was a large population of foreign born doctors. I do know that my dad immigrated to the US from Belgium as a physician because he was frustrated by the system of socialized medicine. He had previously come to the US for his residency and again for some training in his specialty, but it was not until he was finished with all his schooling, training, etc. that he decided to move to the US permanently.

 

I know a few Canadian born, bred, trained physicians who have followed this route. They do not want to work under the Canadian healthcare system.

[Mrs Mungo]

You've met me. You know how wacky I am.:D And since it is documented fact that my brain is swiss cheese, my lapses were not due to trying to deceive. (Ooo, that sort of rhymes!)

 

I did not think you were being deceptive, :D I just wondered what was up. If John McCain and my kids have the same certificate, I was wondering if something happened in between.

[Laura Corin]

And, of course, how can you *tell* when someone *is* a foreigner?

 

 

My boys are British and American from birth. If they turned up at an American university, they would sound like foreigners: having home educated with me, their accents are largely BBC British.

 

Laura

[kalanamak]

Because people with the wherewithal to get through medical training have the wherewithal to move if they so choose.

 

I know Indian docs who love India because they can have a beautiful house in an enclosed courtyard with servants to run every errand and grow vegetables, etc, and I know Indian docs who choose to live here, do their own housework, and have both in the marriage working so they don't have to deal with corruption.

 

I knew one who decided to leave India because his father died in a car crash that would have been just nothing here, but he died because there was no blood bank or transfusion available where he had the crash (and it wasn't in the middle of nowhere). He decided that just wasn't civilized enough for him, and spent the next several years making sure he got "out". He was a lovely man, a good resident, and I'm sure this country is better for having him here. :) But it wasn't for income or our election process, but because of the blood bank. There are a lot of traffic fatalities there, and he was not willing to risk losing another family member that way. My ex had lost an aunt similarly.

[tex-mex]

tex-mex, the info you've responded to here is not only incorrect, it's erroneous. Go back and read all of the posts. I'm saying that nicely, no snark intended. :D

 

I can assure you that there are scores of American-born folks, even white ones ;), getting into US med schools. Statistically, American -born med grads are the majority.

 

 

Excuse me...? Why are you directing this factoid to me?

 

I am speaking from personal experience. Now if you choose to disbelieve my previous statement, you are more than welcome to do so. But please stop with calling me erroneous and being the "thread" police. I did not respond to the OP.

Edited January 16, 2011 by tex-mex

[Miss Marple]

I find this discussing interesting in a couple of respects. The ideas that other nationalities are more willing to work hard and sacrifice to get the results (MD degree) and that our school system is poor in the math and sciences are things I've been discussing with dh and ds for a while now. I wonder because...dh was accepted to 2 medical schools in the 80's - one in his state of residency and the other out of state. He had decent MCAT but certainly not stellar scores but had attended a very poor "church school" utilizing the ACE Paces in which he completed high school in 2.5 years. He feels his high school education was horrid, but he went to the community college for some math and science courses for a year and on to a private college out of state. He graduated summa cum laude in Chemistry in 3 years. He was accepted to medical school at age 19 and graduated summa cum laude at age 23. In his case, his coursework in high school had no bearing on his acceptance to medical school. It all came about through his college level work and his hard work.

 

Ds is a junior at our state university which is ranked in the top 5 nationally for his major (petroleum engineering). They have a lot of foreign students (they are called international students there) in his program. His impression is that they are some of the laziest and poorest students of the group. Many don't do the assignments, don't attend classes, and don't assist with the group assignments. Most are from wealthy families and will work in their family's business (petroleum related somehow) and I wonder if that provides little incentive for them to work hard. So these kids aren't working hard to get their degree.

 

I think, too, that the increase in "foreign" (whether citizens or not) in physicians is an anomaly seen more on the coasts and heavily populated areas rather than our area. We are seeing some increase in the number of "other than caucasian" physicians but I think it's just because they are finally moving into our area. Another aspect is that many of the top students at universities are choosing NOT to go to medical school because of the possibility that their return on investment (time and training) is under threat. These students are going into other fields. I have talked with many of dh's co-physicians and their children are looking at other careers. In my own family not one of our kids plan to be a doctor because they've seen the amount of time dad puts into his job and the decreasing returns. Perhaps the "foreign/or of foreign descent" families are more willing to work for the returns because their own home countries already have socialized medicine and they are OK with that. I think that many of you are seeing an increase in "foreign sounding/appearing" physicians because there is more immigration into your areas than in the middle of the country.

 

FWIW, there are good and bad physicians everywhere whether they are "foreign sounding/appearing" or average American sounding/appearing. I don't think nationality or ethnic descent makes any difference - it's all in the individual.

[kalanamak]

In his case, his coursework in high school had no bearing on his acceptance to medical school. It all came about through his college level work and his hard work.

 

In my own family not one of our kids plan to be a doctor because they've seen the amount of time dad puts into his job and the decreasing returns.

 

I don't think med schools care one whit about high school. I don't recall it even being on the forms (which was fine for me, because I never finished high school).

 

Some people are "born doctors". Since I was very little people outside my family (no one in it....we didn't coax or pressure anyone) have been saying "you should be a doctor". (And keep in mind how few females from small town Kansas in the 1960s went to med school!) Outside I nodded politely, inside I screamed NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO, but it was no use. They were right. (And the two of us who were "born" that way have turned out to have the least $$$ in the family.)

 

So, hopefully the "born doctors" will continue to do it. My guy is even more "born into it" than me, but I am stressing the concept of nursing or medical social worker, in case he doesn't have the memorization skills, etc. needed. :)

[Miss Marple]

Some people are "born doctors".

 

You're probably right. DS#1 gets lightheaded and pale when he cuts himself; ds#2 thinks the fluids associated with childbirth are horrid (he's rather OCD) and thinks humans would be better off laying eggs; ds#3 has LDs associated with difficulty memorizing so that wouldn't work for him; ds#4 might consider it if the returns were better at this time. The first question Ds#4 asks is "how much money does that profession make and how much school is involved". He'll do well at anything and has no great passion at this time. Funny, but it's difficult to raise these fellas for work outside of the medical field since that is what both dh and I know best. It has stretched me tremendously!

[kalanamak]

You're probably right. DS#1 gets lightheaded and pale when he cuts himself;!

 

So did I. It was part of my NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.