Why so many physicians are foreigner?

[blessedmom3]

I am European living now in US- FL . All our physicians in exclusivity --pediatrician, OB, dermatologist, allergist-- are foreigner. I hardly ever met an American doctor... Just wondering why ?I guess young American don't like to be doctors and instead they choose fields in the computer , banking and lawyers ?

 

I noticed a lot of adds here about suing for accidents , medical errors , disability etc, so I assume there is a need for many lawyers thus I also assume why here the dentists are the most expensive in the whole world .

 

Anyway , my original question why we don't see more American doctors?

[Renee in NC]

It's a FL thing and I don't know why it is that way! I have never run into so many foreign doctors anywhere else.

[Jean in Newcastle]

This is a country of immigrants. Many of these "foreign" Drs. are just as American as white Caucasian Americans. Also many immigrants are very conscious of living the American dream. They will purposefully choose careers that will allow them to do that.

[Mejane]

It's a FL thing and I don't know why it is that way! I have never run into so many foreign doctors anywhere else.

 

There are plenty in the northeast, mostly Asian.

Edited January 14, 2011 by Mejane

[OnTheBrink]

Well, all of my doctors (internist, dermatologist, obgyn, dentist) are American (and, btw, I'd not assume those doctors you're referring to are not Americans--they just might be from other countries and be US citizens).

 

But my guess is that the medical schools in the US are better than the ones in other countries so they come here for school and then set up practice here. I don't think one's nationality/culture plays much into what career they choose.

[thescrappyhomeschooler]

My obstetricians were all native born Americans. My kids' pediatrician is native born American. My general doctor is of foreign origin, whether she is an American citizen, I don't know. I do know she went to med school in Turkey. My previous general doctor was from Lebanon. When my mom was in the hospital, she had 2 Indian doctors and one Chinese doctor- all of whom I am assuming weren't born here due to their heavy accents. I'm in Northeast Ohio, so I don't think it's a FL thing. I don't know why foreign doctors like to practice here.

[FaithManor]

I am not certain what all of the factors are. I do know that a very dear friend who is now a dentist, wanted to go to medical school. He took all Honors level classes in high school, had a 4.0, and was valedictorian of a class of 574 students. He graduated from Pre-Med/chemistry major with 4.0. He was on a waiting list at ten different medical schools in the United States. During the wait, he got a master's degree in medical research or something similar - I can't remember the exact name of the degree. He was still on the wait list and finally had a heart to heart with the dean of three different med schools and their answers (paraphrased) was, "You are a whilte, American Male. It doesn't matter how qualified you are, we have diversity quotas that must me met. If you were female, of different ethnicity, or foreign born, you would be in no sweat. Most white males who are citizens experience a five-seven year waiting list before getting a place. You are waiting on others to drop out, fail out, or violate a rule and then we will go down the list and attempt to fill that spot with a person of other ethnicity or at least a white female."

 

That's what he was told. Please don't call me a racist. I am only repeating his story and I have known him to be a person of extreme integrity so I believe him. He eventually gave up the wait and went to dental school which does not have diversity quotas or at least the one he attended did not.

 

I know another man that was told this, though I don't know him well enough to say for certain that this is exactly what he encountered. But, he says that a dean told him there are no diversity quotas on transfer students and that if he could get into a foreign country, do one year of med school there, and transfer back, he would have an easy time finding a slot. He went to Grenada, came back as a transfer student, and though he did not attend what I would call, a stellar university, he is a doctor today....I find him a bit "spacey" and am not comfortable with him as our physician. But, the doctor that is now our GP is of Jewish descent and born in Detroit/both parents were are native born Americans and he went to the Wayne State Medical school. So, he apparently did not have problems getting in.

 

So, this is just incidental...I don't know what the real problem is but possibly, it could be that math and science has been so badly run into the ground in this nation, that there are far fewer American high school grads that are willing to embrace the rigorousness of med school.

 

Faith

[Daisy]

We have a lot of Pakistani and Indian doctors in our city. My pediatrician of 11 years closed down her office and moved back to India two years ago because of the economy and insurance junk. She said it just wasn't worth it anymore. She'd been here forever.

 

It doesn't bother me. We've always just joked that no one wants to be a doctor in Bakersfield when they can go 90 minutes away and work in Santa Barbara instead.

 

The only American doctors we've seen here are specialists such as cardiologists, my husband's neck surgeon, and of course, plastic surgery doctors. Maybe Americans doctors just know where the real money is made? LOL.

[Guest Katia]

I have lived in 7 different states in the last 30ish years, and all of our doctors, except for ONE, have been Americans.

 

The one was our ped when we lived in Michigan. He was Greek. He was a fantastic doctor that we loved dearly, and right when we were ready to move to a different state, he retired and moved back to Greece. That was a great loss for all the children in his practice.

 

Now, we have had many doctors of differing ethnicities, but they were all American.

[Crimson Wife]

I was pre-med for the first 2 years of college and the Asians were the ones willing to sacrifice having ANY sort of life whatsoever outside of studying in order to get A's.

 

The moment I realized that I wasn't cut out to be a pre-med was when I was heading over to Fraternity Row with my sorority sisters at midnight on the first Friday back from Winter Break. Classes hadn't started so there were no assignments yet. However, when we passed the 24 hour study room at the library, it was packed with Asians studying to get ahead. I worked hard in college but I also wanted to have a life. When Friday and Saturday night rolled around, I wanted to socialize with my then-boyfriend (now DH) and/or my sorority sisters. I saw clearly in that moment that I wasn't willing to sacrifice that so that I could compete with the Asians who did.

[creekland]

I don't know what the real problem is but possibly, it could be that math and science has been so badly run into the ground in this nation, that there are far fewer American high school grads that are willing to embrace the rigorousness of med school.

 

Faith

 

I suspect this is the answer more than anything else. At my school few kids want to do the work necessary to be competitive for med school - especially when they find out how much work is involved.

 

That said, our guidance counselor went to Johns Hopkins a couple years back to hear a med school presentation. He was told they have 120 slots every year. 50% are for male and 50% are for female - no exceptions. Of those, 50% are also reserved for foreigners - no exceptions. One of each of the American slots is reserved for the best Johns Hopkins undergrad. This leaves each American applicant 29 slots left that they are competing for (120/2 = 60, 60/2 = 30, 30-1=29). They get thousands of applicants for all of the slots. Not many make it in and half come from overseas by their design.

[BMW]

We are in central CA and with a large medical group. Every dept. at the offices has photos of their physicians up on the wall. I'd say about one in six are white/caucasian/European descent. The others are mostly "Middle East" or "Asian" or simply another nationality that is not "white/caucasian". (I am stating that based on appearance AND their names.) Very ethnic names. It doesn't disturb me in any way, but I have wondered why there are very few "white" doctors employed at our offices. (We're talking very large medical group) Please, I certainly hope to not offend anyone, that would make me feel very sad. I am just sharing this observation in current real life.

 

Thanks, Creekland, for sharing that information... it helps to answer the "why" part.

Edited January 14, 2011 by BMW

[Perry]

 

That said, our guidance counselor went to Johns Hopkins a couple years back to hear a med school presentation. He was told they have 120 slots every year. 50% are for male and 50% are for female - no exceptions. Of those, 50% are also reserved for foreigners - no exceptions. One of each of the American slots is reserved for the best Johns Hopkins undergrad. This leaves each American applicant 29 slots left that they are competing for (120/2 = 60, 60/2 = 30, 30-1=29). They get thousands of applicants for all of the slots. Not many make it in and half come from overseas by their design.

I have always understood that it is extremely difficult for international students without a green card to get accepted into US medical schools.

 

Here's an article

 

GENERAL COMMENTS

When applying to US medical schools, non-US citizen permanent residents (green card holders) are generally treated the same as U.S. citizens. In most cases, permanent residents can qualify as legal residents of a state and are therefore afforded the same preferences that may be given to state residents at public and some private medical schools. Those not having a green card, i.e., international students, have a more serious problem, since not all medical schools will consider international applicants. Of those schools that will accept international applicants, some have particular requirements that must be met by international applicants who are accepted to the school. For example, some schools require that international students provide proof that they are able to meet the cost of four years of medical school and living expenses. As a general rule, no federal financial aid is available for non-U.S. citizens. However, international students may be eligible for merit scholarships or other school specific funding. Some schools with MD/PhD programs have some slots that may be awarded to international students. However, applicants should only pursue MD/PhD programs if they have a genuine interest in research as a primary activity in their future.

 

 

THE JOHNS HOPKINS UNIVERSITY SCHOOL OF MEDICINE

Noncitizens without Permanent Residency status are considered to be international students, including citizens of Canada. None of the Hopkins international student population is included in its count of minority students. International applicants are considered on the same basis for admission as US citizens; however, if admitted they are not eligible for financial assistance. They must place four years of total cost (tuition and living expenses) into an escrow account prior to matriculating. The total number of international applicants over the past three years is not available, but 8-10 have been admitted. If an international student has studied exclusively outside the US s/he is required to have an additional year of study in the US.

 

I believe it's much easier to attend a foreign medical school, then come to the US for residency.

 

International Medical Graduates in the USA

 

IMGs make up 23% of the US physician workforce, and 24% of residents. The heaviest concentrations of IMGs are in New Jersey (50% of the workforce), New York (48%), Florida (42%) and Illinois (38%). Almost half of all IMGs (48%) train in primary care specialties vs. 33% of U.S. graduates. The largest national groups are from India 20%, Pakistan 12%, Philippines 9% Former soviet republics 3%. Of the 196,576 total IMG population, 85% are involved in patient care, the rest in research.

 

Match Statistics for IMGs [2008]

 

Some 12,000 IMGs applied to the NRMP in 2008. Of the 7500 active IMG applicants who had certification and submitted a rank order list, 4500 (55%) were successful in matching. US citizens who completed their medical education abroad had a very similar matching result to IMGs. By comparison, 94% of graduates of US medical schools successfully matched. About 40% of all IMGs matched into categorical internal medicine residencies. Family practice took 15% of the IMG applicants, pediatrics took 9%, psychiatry 5% and preliminary surgery 5%.

 

The specialties who matched the fewest IMGs (ie most competitive) were orthopedic surgery (7%), radiation oncology (12%), categorical surgery (17%), diagnostic radiology (18%), emergency medicine (22%), and dermatology (23% of matched PGY2 applicants were IMGs). Few IMGs are accepted into transitional and preliminary medicine programs. The residencies matching the most IMGs were family medicine (66%), categorical internal medicine (45%), psychiatry (44%), rehabilitation medicine (43%), and pathology (41%). You can see the 2008 NRMP data tables HERE.

 

[sleepymommy]

When you ask why not more Americans, do you mean why not more white Americans?

 

There are many American docs out there, they may look "ethnic" but it doesn't mean they are not American. We are a nation of immigrants.

 

Immigrants that are doctors can still be American citizens even if not born here.

 

Immigrants that are not white have kids that are not white yet are born and raised here in America, thus are American.

 

Now if the question is why don't more white American kids go to medical school, I don't know the answer to that. Crimson Wife touched on the fact that maybe Asians are more willing to sacrifice a social life and according to the Chinese mothers are superior article, I would not doubt this at all.

 

But there could be so many different factors that it would be difficult to have a cut and dry "this is why" answer.

[creekland]

I have always understood that it is extremely difficult for international students without a green card to get accepted into US medical schools.

 

 

 

Interesting. Now I'm wondering if the GC misunderstood them and they meant minorities - not just foreigners? It doesn't make a whole lot of sense, because the reason he was told they reserve half for foreigners is, "because they pay full freight," which would match the article you quoted. Maybe they "reserve" half, but can't fill them? Or maybe they mean green card holders are included in that?

 

Now I'm curious...

[Daisy]

When you ask why not more Americans, do you mean why not more white Americans?

 

There are many American docs out there, they may look "ethnic" but it doesn't mean they are not American. We are a nation of immigrants.

 

Immigrants that are doctors can still be American citizens even if not born here.

 

Immigrants that are not white have kids that are not white yet are born and raised here in America, thus are American.

 

Now if the question is why don't more white American kids go to medical school, I don't know the answer to that. Crimson Wife touched on the fact that maybe Asians are more willing to sacrifice a social life and according to the Chinese mothers are superior article, I would not doubt this at all.

 

But there could be so many different factors that it would be difficult to have a cut and dry "this is why" answer.

 

I don't think any of my friends really care whether the doctor is an immigrant or an American citizen. It all boils down to the accent. That might sound dumb but when you are trying to understand the dosage amount for your kid's medicine, a very thick accent can be pretty frustrating. Like anything else though, you eventually get used to it.

[Medieval Mom]

Interestingly enough, I've known far more "foreign" (to the country) docs in Europe than I have in the U.S. In socialist countries, for example, it might not make a lot of financial sense to go through the years of college and training it takes to become a physicain in a country that pays its physicians only marginally more than a person with a gymnasium /high school education. :) My relatives in Europe complain about this a lot. The have a dickens of a time finding doctors who speak their language. (And contrary to popular opinion, not everyone in Europe is bilingual. ;) )

 

This is an interesting article.

Edited January 14, 2011 by Medieval Mom

[Marie in Oh]

are not white, especially in the specialties. I have no idea if the are American born or not. My only issue with it is that I like to understand my doctor, and many times the thick accent makes that very difficult. My mother's heart doc is Chinese and he is VERY hard to understand, which makes it difficult, especially for the elderly.

 

We have dear friends that the dad applied for medical school at age 35. I think that is the reason he got in. He went to a fairly prestigious school after graduating from a military academy, becoming a pilot, and having a very prestigious military career. I think he was rather, um, unique, which helped him in the entrance department.

[Renee in NC]

When you ask why not more Americans, do you mean why not more white Americans?

 

There are many American docs out there, they may look "ethnic" but it doesn't mean they are not American. We are a nation of immigrants.

 

Immigrants that are doctors can still be American citizens even if not born here.

 

Immigrants that are not white have kids that are not white yet are born and raised here in America, thus are American.

 

Now if the question is why don't more white American kids go to medical school, I don't know the answer to that. Crimson Wife touched on the fact that maybe Asians are more willing to sacrifice a social life and according to the Chinese mothers are superior article, I would not doubt this at all.

 

But there could be so many different factors that it would be difficult to have a cut and dry "this is why" answer.

 

No, I don't mean "white" - I really do mean foreign. The way you can tell is the heavily accented English - not the way someone might look or the last name they might have.;) They may or may not be American citizens.

 

As for why more white Americans don't go to medical school, 57% of applicants are white, much higher than any other group. The acceptance rate is roughly the same across the spectrum except for African Americans whose acceptance rates are 8 percentage points lower. Of those who actually attend, 60% are white. I don't think there is really a problem with whites going to med school.

 

As for FaithManor's friend - the med schools don't care about high school, only college. Not only that, but most applicants are just like him.;) My uncle, who was the chancellor at a major medical school until a few years ago, said that med school admissions was really more about the "purple mustache" than grades/test scores. Everyone has good grades and test scores, so you have to stand out in some other way - unique extracurriculars, experience in medicine, life experience, etc. You have to be different than the pack.

[Capt_Uhura]

I don't think any of my friends really care whether the doctor is an immigrant or an American citizen. It all boils down to the accent. That might sound dumb but when you are trying to understand the dosage amount for your kid's medicine, a very thick accent can be pretty frustrating. Like anything else though, you eventually get used to it.

 

:iagree:

 

I just went to the doctor and several times I had to ask her to repeat something. I almost asked her to just write it down but gave up and figured the pharmacist would be able to answer my questions regarding the medication. This was an emergency situation and not my usual doctor so perhaps I'd get used to the accent but I almost felt like I needed a translator.

[oldskool]

When you ask why not more Americans, do you mean why not more white Americans?

 

There are many American docs out there, they may look "ethnic" but it doesn't mean they are not American. We are a nation of immigrants.

 

Immigrants that are doctors can still be American citizens even if not born here.

 

Immigrants that are not white have kids that are not white yet are born and raised here in America, thus are American.

 

Now if the question is why don't more white American kids go to medical school, I don't know the answer to that. Crimson Wife touched on the fact that maybe Asians are more willing to sacrifice a social life and according to the Chinese mothers are superior article, I would not doubt this at all.

 

But there could be so many different factors that it would be difficult to have a cut and dry "this is why" answer.

 

 

Thanks for posting this. My kids of Pakistani/Indian descent from their fathers side are, I hope, still American even if there names "sound foreign" and they are not all white. My father is Australian and growing up I never had to question if I was American or not.

 

Lesley

[Renee in NC]

I suspect this is the answer more than anything else. At my school few kids want to do the work necessary to be competitive for med school - especially when they find out how much work is involved.

 

That said, our guidance counselor went to Johns Hopkins a couple years back to hear a med school presentation. He was told they have 120 slots every year. 50% are for male and 50% are for female - no exceptions. Of those, 50% are also reserved for foreigners - no exceptions. One of each of the American slots is reserved for the best Johns Hopkins undergrad. This leaves each American applicant 29 slots left that they are competing for (120/2 = 60, 60/2 = 30, 30-1=29). They get thousands of applicants for all of the slots. Not many make it in and half come from overseas by their design.

 

The rates this past year according to their website was 47% female and 53% male. What was really striking was that international accepted students are only given conditional admittance until they deposit $282,500 into an escrow account to prove they can afford to be there!:001_huh:

 

ETA: There were only 2 foreign countries represented (didn't say which ones or how many students total.)

Edited January 14, 2011 by Renee in FL

[blessedmom3]

When you ask why not more Americans, do you mean why not more white Americans?

 

There are many American docs out there, they may look "ethnic" but it doesn't mean they are not American. We are a nation of immigrants.

 

Immigrants that are doctors can still be American citizens even if not born here.

 

Immigrants that are not white have kids that are not white yet are born and raised here in America, thus are American.

 

Now if the question is why don't more white American kids go to medical school, I don't know the answer to that. Crimson Wife touched on the fact that maybe Asians are more willing to sacrifice a social life and according to the Chinese mothers are superior article, I would not doubt this at all.

 

But there could be so many different factors that it would be difficult to have a cut and dry "this is why" answer.

 

 

I didn't mean to offend anyone. Maybe I didn't express myself correctly. I meant why there are not white Americans born or raised here, not foreign . Some doctors are white but they usually come from Eastern Europe .

 

When I say "foreign" , I mean ALL , including white foreign. But most doctors I met are Indian or Asian ...and I just wonder why. It's not common in France where I used to live for ex.

[oldskool]

No, I don't mean "white" - I really do mean foreign. The way you can tell is the heavily accented English - not the way someone might look or the last name they might have.;) They may or may not be American citizens.

 

 

So, I guess Governor Schwarzenegger is still foreign. Those darn accents.

 

Lesley

[blessedmom3]

The percentage of ALL foreign people here in America is still much lower than white Americans . Still the percentage of ALL foreign doctors ( looking foreign or having a heavy accent) is still much higher. That's the question.

[Kim in Appalachia]

before you say I have to be joking, let me say that I am serious. It's not that "foreign" docs (Those born and raised outside of the US) make less, it's that the US doesn't want to put money into training doctors. There are not enough residency slots for the number of doctors the US needs. Residencies are indirectly funded (not entirely, but heavily funded, especially primary care ones), by Medicaid/Medicare.

 

In order to keep a large enough supply of docs, the US allows "foreign" docs to come over on J1 visas.

 

In order to expand residency programs Medicaid/Medicare would have to pay more per office visit.

 

That is sort of an over simplification of it all but still true.

[Renee in NC]

So, I guess Governor Schwarzenegger is still foreign. Those darn accents.

 

Lesley

 

But he is foreign, right? Foreign means not born in this country. It isn't a value judgement at all. I personally don't care *where* my doctor was born as long as he/she is a good doctor. My two special needs dc have a foreign doctor and she is GREAT compared to other doctors we have seen here (I know she is foreign because my ds asked her where she was from and she told him.) The homeschool moms at coop last year recommended a French doctor locally because they love his accent (and he is a good doctor as well).:D

Edited January 14, 2011 by Renee in FL

[Stacy in NJ]

Well, I live in the Northeast and all of my doctors are white and native born, including my dentist. I wouldn't have a problem with a foreign born doctor, but hasn't happened for me.

 

According to my new neighbor, who is from Argentina and is a pediatric neurologist, foreigners like practicing in the USA because of the superior conditions and compensation.

 

ETA: Acutally, while my dentist is native born, he is not white. I think he is of Indian decent. I've never asked him.

[Renee in NC]

before you say I have to be joking, let me say that I am serious. It's not that "foreign" docs (Those born and raised outside of the US) make less, it's that the US doesn't want to put money into training doctors. There are not enough residency slots for the number of doctors the US needs. Residencies are indirectly funded (not entirely, but heavily funded, especially primary care ones), by Medicaid/Medicare.

 

In order to keep a large enough supply of docs, the US allows "foreign" docs to come over on J1 visas.

 

In order to expand residency programs Medicaid/Medicare would have to pay more per office visit.

 

That is sort of an over simplification of it all but still true.

 

The AMA says about 26% of doctors were trained in other countries, but it doesn't distinguish between foreign-born doctors and American-born doctors who go overseas for school. Some states have much higher rates than the 26%, including NY, CA, and FL. Many of these physicians practice in under-served areas. Overall, about 36% of residents of accredited residency programs are foreign-born (some are naturalized citizens, but most are either permanent residents of the US or here on various types of visas.)

 

Here is the paper:http://www.ama-assn.org/ama1/pub/upload/mm/18/img-workforce-paper.pdf

 

Learned some interesting things today!

 

I also want to point out that I have seen a lot more foreign-born Catholic priests in FL as well. I think it might be the gorgeous weather!:D

[oldskool]

But he is foreign, right? Foreign means not born in this country. It isn't a value judgement at all. I personally don't care *where* my doctor was born as long as he/she is a good doctor. My two special needs dc have a foreign doctor and she is GREAT compared to other doctors we have seen here. The homeschool moms at coop last year recommended a French doctor locally because they love his accent (and he is a good doctor as well).:D

 

 

No, I do not think he is foreign. He is American. Otherwise the argument would be that California elected a foreigner as governor. I will leave it at that...I have the feeling this would be a conversation that goes nowhere except back to where we both started.

 

Lesley

[Renee in NC]

No, I do not think he is foreign. He is American. Otherwise the argument would be that California elected a foreigner as governor. I will leave it at that...I have the feeling this would be a conversation that goes nowhere except back to where we both started.

 

Lesley

 

I am really sorry to have offended you. I didn't realize that I was being offensive in what I was saying. Is the idea that once someone becomes a citizen they should no longer be considered "foreign"? I am asking this sincerely.

 

ETA: Would it be better to say "not native born" or is it the fact that anyone would notice an accent at all or make a distinction at all?

Edited January 14, 2011 by Renee in FL

[TN Mama]

No, I do not think he is foreign. He is American. Otherwise the argument would be that California elected a foreigner as governor. I will leave it at that...I have the feeling this would be a conversation that goes nowhere except back to where we both started.

 

Lesley

 

He is American, but that doesn't negate the fact that he was born in Austria. And thus, foreign born. I don't think it's a bad thing, nor have I read in this thread of anyone who does.

 

You're certainly right that this type of conversation can go nowhere, some people will go to great lengths to read into what others say, even if it isn't there in the first place.

 

FTR - OP, I too have noticed many foreign born physicians recently. I know they aren't originally from the US based on accents.

[Rivka]

That said, our guidance counselor went to Johns Hopkins a couple years back to hear a med school presentation. He was told they have 120 slots every year. 50% are for male and 50% are for female - no exceptions. Of those, 50% are also reserved for foreigners - no exceptions. One of each of the American slots is reserved for the best Johns Hopkins undergrad. This leaves each American applicant 29 slots left that they are competing for (120/2 = 60, 60/2 = 30, 30-1=29). They get thousands of applicants for all of the slots. Not many make it in and half come from overseas by their design.

 

That's odd. The current class is 47% female, 53% male, and they represent "28 states and 2 foreign countries." The pictures of the student body on the website show a typically diverse student body. They make a point of saying that foreign students aren't eligible for financial aid and are required to put the entire cost of their medical education in an escrow account before they begin. Nowhere does it say that they hold half the slots for "foreigners" (do you mean noncitizens, or just people who are foreign-born), nor does anything I see on their site suggest that they do so.

 

Edited to add: Sorry for the duplication, I see that someone got here before me.

Edited January 14, 2011 by Rivka

[oldskool]

I am really sorry to have offended you. I didn't realize that I was being offensive in what I was saying. Is the idea that once someone becomes a citizen they should no longer be considered "foreign"? I am asking this sincerely.

 

ETA: Would it be better to say "not native born" or is it the fact that anyone would notice an accent at all or make a distinction at all?

 

You weren't being offensive. I do understand what you are saying. I just wonder at what point do people who live and work in this country lose the foreign title. I don't know if I have a good answer myself. Sorry if I came across a bit defensively.

 

To put some light on why we do see many foreign;) doctors here. I know that for my husband, from Pakistan, had pretty much had two career options. Engineer or doctor. The third one of working in IT came about within the last twenty years. The reason is for family stability. Parents are the children's responsibility to take care of once they are grown and pushing them to work in fields that will provide stability and income are what is important. My Dh took a different career path and to this day his father will say that our financial situation would be different if only he had listened. Dh has a lot of guilt about not being able to help the family out. After we were married it was expected that we would send money back to the family. And we did before three kids and homeschooling came along. In countries like Pakistan, and I assume other economically challenged areas, there is a lot of pressure because if you don't do well the alternative is living a pretty bleak life. Education and jobs are the only things that keep you afloat and the understanding is that there are only a few fields of study that can offer that.

 

 

 

Lesley

Edited January 14, 2011 by oldskool
Punctuation:)

[Rivka]

I am not certain what all of the factors are. I do know that a very dear friend who is now a dentist, wanted to go to medical school. He took all Honors level classes in high school, had a 4.0, and was valedictorian of a class of 574 students. He graduated from Pre-Med/chemistry major with 4.0. He was on a waiting list at ten different medical schools in the United States. During the wait, he got a master's degree in medical research or something similar - I can't remember the exact name of the degree. He was still on the wait list and finally had a heart to heart with the dean of three different med schools and their answers (paraphrased) was, "You are a whilte, American Male. It doesn't matter how qualified you are, we have diversity quotas that must me met. If you were female, of different ethnicity, or foreign born, you would be in no sweat. Most white males who are citizens experience a five-seven year waiting list before getting a place. You are waiting on others to drop out, fail out, or violate a rule and then we will go down the list and attempt to fill that spot with a person of other ethnicity or at least a white female."

 

That's what he was told. Please don't call me a racist. I am only repeating his story and I have known him to be a person of extreme integrity so I believe him.

 

Wow! So three different medical school deans told your friend that their schools were deliberately violating the law (racial quotas are illegal, and were illegal even back when affirmative action policies were more common), I guess without worrying that he would sue them? And he didn't sue them? Huh.

 

The American Association of Medical Colleges has some interesting data about gender, race, and medical students. It appears that although women earn 57% of BA degrees, they make up about 47% of medical students.

 

In 2010, of the 79,070 students at U.S. medical schools, only 1,309 were "foreign." Sixty percent (47,525) were white. (22% were Asian-American, so something under 20% were what people in academic admissions call "underrepresented minorities.")

 

It really does appear that white males are holding their own in the med school admissions process, although perhaps not as dominant as they used to be.

 

I remember that a while back you also posted about it being "nearly impossible" for a white person to get into the U of M law school, which turned out to have a current enrollment which is 75-79% white depending on the class.

 

So it seems that in general you're hearing some weird and unsubstantiated things about race and professional education, which you might want to research before passing on to others as fact.

[creekland]

That's odd. The current class is 47% female, 53% male, and they represent "28 states and 2 foreign countries." The pictures of the student body on the website show a typically diverse student body. They make a point of saying that foreign students aren't eligible for financial aid and are required to put the entire cost of their medical education in an escrow account before they begin. Nowhere does it say that they hold half the slots for "foreigners" (do you mean noncitizens, or just people who are foreign-born), nor does anything I see on their site suggest that they do so.

 

Edited to add: Sorry for the duplication, I see that someone got here before me.

 

No problem on the duplication. I can't answer for the discrepency. It was the guidance counselor at my high school that went there and heard their spiel - then relayed it to me when I was asking about pre-med --> med school advice. Maybe he misunderstood something? Maybe some of the females dropped out since? Maybe they told him what they wished were true instead of what is? I have no idea.

 

It does go to show that hearsay is not always accurate. ;)

[Mabelen]

I am really sorry to have offended you. I didn't realize that I was being offensive in what I was saying. Is the idea that once someone becomes a citizen they should no longer be considered "foreign"? I am asking this sincerely.

 

ETA: Would it be better to say "not native born" or is it the fact that anyone would notice an accent at all or make a distinction at all?

 

Yes, I think it is a matter of how you are phrasing the question.

 

One thing is foreign by birth and/or upbringing/education and a different thing altogether is foreign by nationality. You can be foreign born but be an American. Right now I am both foreign born and foreign by nationality; I am not American although I intend to become an American, at that point that is how I would like to be known despite my place of birth and upbringing!

 

You can also find people who you would think of as American because they came here as young kids but who are not American by nationality. That would be my oldest, for example.

[tex-mex]

I suspect this is the answer more than anything else. At my school few kids want to do the work necessary to be competitive for med school - especially when they find out how much work is involved.

 

That said, our guidance counselor went to Johns Hopkins a couple years back to hear a med school presentation. He was told they have 120 slots every year. 50% are for male and 50% are for female - no exceptions. Of those, 50% are also reserved for foreigners - no exceptions. One of each of the American slots is reserved for the best Johns Hopkins undergrad. This leaves each American applicant 29 slots left that they are competing for (120/2 = 60, 60/2 = 30, 30-1=29). They get thousands of applicants for all of the slots. Not many make it in and half come from overseas by their design.

I think it boils down to our poor school system. It is hard for a pre-med student to pass the MCAT and get into a competitive school.

 

Hubby was an associate prof at a Univ of CA school -- worked in the Pulmonary Function/Sports Medicine lab -- and had numerous pre-med students as interns. I would say out of 10 interns, 2 were American "born" (white/caucasian), and the rest CHILDREN OF immigrants from other countries. (All Americans.) One of the most notable students he had was a Iranian whose family fled the 70's/80's fall of Iran and lived in France for some time. They then immigrated to America in the early 80's. The student was brilliant. He spoke 4 languages and was headed to USC Medical School. We kept in touch with him and 20 years later, he is a double MD/PhD working as a Psychiatrist. His wife, also a doctor, works in Los Angeles' Skid Row clinic to the homeless population. Wonderful people.

 

My Genetic Metabolic Specialist is the child of immigrants from China. He is one of 6 doctors WORLDWIDE specializing in our rare liver disease. No accent. But he can go into a BRONX accent in no time flat having grown up in Brooklyn. LOL He is awesome!

 

ETA: Yesterday went to get my annual women's exam with the GYN. Pleased to see a new doctor in the clinic. Turns out she is Russian and left Russia 12 years ago to the states. She went to school in America. She is very intelligent and I liked her a lot. Her accent is thick and hard to understand... but she knows her stuff. ;)

Edited January 16, 2011 by tex-mex

[Jean in Newcastle]

But he is foreign, right? Foreign means not born in this country. It isn't a value judgement at all. I personally don't care *where* my doctor was born as long as he/she is a good doctor. My two special needs dc have a foreign doctor and she is GREAT compared to other doctors we have seen here (I know she is foreign because my ds asked her where she was from and she told him.) The homeschool moms at coop last year recommended a French doctor locally because they love his accent (and he is a good doctor as well).:D

 

By that definition, I am foreign because I was not born in this country. Forget about the fact that I am a naturalized citizen who was born to two American citizens.

[RoughCollie]

By that definition, I am foreign because I was not born in this country. Forget about the fact that I am a naturalized citizen who was born to two American citizens.

 

I don't think you are "naturalized" citizen ... those are people who were not citizens when they were born.

 

I'm not a naturalized citizen -- I was an American citizen from the moment of my birth, because my father was, even though my mother was not a citizen and I was born in Europe.

[Jean in Newcastle]

I don't think you are "naturalized" citizen ... those are people who were not citizens when they were born.

 

I'm not a naturalized citizen -- I was an American citizen from the moment of my birth, because my father was, even though my mother was not a citizen and I was born in Europe.

 

I have a "certificate of naturalization". I think that means that I'm a naturalized citizen.

[LibraryLover]

tex-mex, the info you've responded to here is not only incorrect, it's erroneous. Go back and read all of the posts. I'm saying that nicely, no snark intended. :D

 

I can assure you that there are scores of American-born folks, even white ones ;), getting into US med schools. Statistically, American -born med grads are the majority.

 

I do think FL demographics are interesting, however. In MA, most of my in-laws' physicians were (my inlaws have both dpassed) white American-born folks, but not so much in FL. I don't know why that is, but it could be that people from other countries are smart enough not to live in areas with bitter weather.

 

That's all I got. :D

 

I think it boils down to our poor school system. It is hard for a pre-med student to pass the MCAT and get into a competitive school.

 

Hubby was an associate prof at a Univ of CA school -- worked in the Pulmonary Function/Sports Medicine lab -- and had numerous pre-med students as interns. I would say out of 10 interns, 2 were American "born" (white/caucasian), and the rest CHILDREN OF immigrants from other countries. (All Americans.) One of the most notable students he had was a Iranian whose family fled the 70's/80's fall of Iran and lived in France for some time. They then immigrated to America in the early 80's. The student was brilliant. He spoke 4 languages and was headed to USC Medical School. We kept in touch with him and 20 years later, he is a double MD/PhD working as a Psychiatrist. His wife, also a doctor, works in Los Angeles' Skid Row clinic to the homeless population. Wonderful people.

 

My liver disease specialist is the child of immigrants from China. He is one of 6 doctors WORLDWIDE specializing in our rare liver disease. No accent. But he can go into a BRONX accent in no time flat. LOL He is awesome!

 

ETA: Yesterday went to get my annual women's exam with the GYN. Pleased to see a new doctor in the clinic. Turns out she is Russian and left Russia 12 years ago to the states. She went to school in America. She is very intelligent and I liked her a lot. Her accent is thick and hard to understand... but she knows her stuff. ;)

[Jean in Newcastle]

I do not care where my Dr. was born or if he/she has an accent. If he/she has passed the appropriate medical exams (not easy, btw), then they have a right to practice medicine. You have the right to find out if they have an accent before you sign up as their patient but I would be more interested in knowing their expertise.

[sleepymommy]

Well if accents are the problem, which I do agree it can be annoying not understanding especially when it comes to medical care, it can just as easily be said that people from different parts of this country have different accents too.

 

It can be difficult for some to understand southern accents, it can be difficult for some to understand the accents and fast speech of many northerners, etc.

 

I think pointing out Arnold Swartzenegger is a good example. Yes he is foreign born, yes he is a citizen, but would you call his kids not native too? Yes they were born here, but you would not be able to tell if there father an immigrant due to the fact that they have no accent and they are white.

 

Would they be considered as a separate nationality on polls that gauge how many Asians, Hispanics, etc went to a certain school?

 

Those polls list Asians whether they were born here or not as Asian and when looking at a percentage scale for schools you would see that and automatically think foreign.

 

 

As to the number of foreign born in residencies, it is true that the US does not produce enough graduates from medical school to fill the slots in residency programs, especially for family practice and internal medicine. Those tracks just don't make as much money and the hours are much worse, less pay, more hours means not as many people want to go into those fields.

 

But we still need family care providers and internist so FMG's are needed.

 

I know American, white students that go overseas or to the Caribbean to medical school because they were not able to get into US schools (variety of reasons, mainly because of low MCAT scores), they are still considered FMG's when applying to residency. So that number of FMGs in the surveys has a good amount of white, Americans in it not just foreign born.

[Renee in NC]

By that definition, I am foreign because I was not born in this country. Forget about the fact that I am a naturalized citizen who was born to two American citizens.

 

Now that you have said this, I remember something that happened to a friend in college. She was British by birth and through her mother, but she was American through her father. She generally says she is British, but was an American citizen at birth. One time in college a mutual friend was railing at her about "foreigners getting all the financial aid" and she put him in his place right quick.

 

Your situation is very unique because the laws generally have a child born to American citizen parents as citizens when they are born, regardless of where that is. Your situation must have been very unique for you to have been naturalized.

 

I see that this is a touchy subject for some, maybe because of anti-immigrant feelings that some hold. Please believe me when I say I am not one of them - I simply find people's backgrounds and stories interesting. It isn't because I think that being born in this country is somehow superior, because it isn't.

[FaithManor]

You know what Rivka, I actually said in my post that I did not accept their word as fact though one is very much known for his integrity. I said that this was something I was told but unsubstantiated.

 

I said my OPINION was that the mediocre state of math and science education in this nation might have something to do with it.

 

I didn't say anything to offend you. You don't need to be offensive to me. Read my post. I did not present anything in it as fact and I was clear on that.

 

Faith

[DawnM]

Actually it means not born American. Many of us were born overseas but were born naturalized US Citizens. ;) Just being nit-picky!

 

Dawn

 

But he is foreign, right? Foreign means not born in this country. It isn't a value judgement at all. I personally don't care *where* my doctor was born as long as he/she is a good doctor. My two special needs dc have a foreign doctor and she is GREAT compared to other doctors we have seen here (I know she is foreign because my ds asked her where she was from and she told him.) The homeschool moms at coop last year recommended a French doctor locally because they love his accent (and he is a good doctor as well).:D

[DawnM]

:iagree:

 

My dad's surgeon was rated the best in his field and has a heavy Indian accent.....who cares? He got 100% of the cancer cut out of my dad!

 

Dawn

 

I do not care where my Dr. was born or if he/she has an accent. If he/she has passed the appropriate medical exams (not easy, btw), then they have a right to practice medicine. You have the right to find out if they have an accent before you sign up as their patient but I would be more interested in knowing their expertise.

[Renee in NC]

tex-mex, the info you've responded to here is not only incorrect, it's erroneous. Go back and read all of the posts. I'm saying that nicely, no snark intended. :D

 

I can assure you that there are scores of American-born folks, even white ones ;), getting into US med schools. Statistically, American -born med grads are the majority.

 

I do think FL demographics are interesting, however. In MA, most of my in-laws' physicians were (my inlaws have both dpassed) white American-born folks, but not so much in FL. I don't know why that is, but it could be that people from other countries are smart enough not to live in areas with bitter weather.

 

That's all I got. :D

 

That's what I think - people from all over the world come here because the weather is good.:D

 

However, I used to live near Chapel Hill, NC and the various nationalities represented there is amazing. The dc and I were at the lake one day and there were other families there with children and everyone was playing together. There was a middle eastern family, a pakastani family, a "redneck" family, an African American family, a Latino family, and mine. I sat there thinking, "Only in America!":D We were all different in various ways, but yet we were all the same - families hanging out by the lake on a hot Sunday.

[Renee in NC]

Actually it means not born American. Many of us were born overseas but were born naturalized US Citizens. ;) Just being nit-picky!

 

Dawn

 

You are right - I stand corrected.:D

 

Well if accents are the problem, which I do agree it can be annoying not understanding especially when it comes to medical care, it can just as easily be said that people from different parts of this country have different accents too.

 

It can be difficult for some to understand southern accents, it can be difficult for some to understand the accents and fast speech of many northerners, etc.

 

 

I absolutely agree. I wouldn't avoid a doctor based on accent, whatever it may be.

 

I think pointing out Arnold Swartzenegger is a good example. Yes he is foreign born, yes he is a citizen, but would you call his kids not native too? Yes they were born here, but you would not be able to tell if there father an immigrant due to the fact that they have no accent and they are white.

 

Of course not. And I wouldn't call anyone else's children who were born here non-native either. It was simply an observation, not a judgement.

 

 

Would they be considered as a separate nationality on polls that gauge how many Asians, Hispanics, etc went to a certain school?

Those polls list Asians whether they were born here or not as Asian and when looking at a percentage scale for schools you would see that and automatically think foreign.

 

Those polls are asking about ethnicity/race and language, not nationality. "Hispanic" is not a race or ethnicity. The Hispanic question is usually a totally separate question. You can be Asian and American, just like you can be of Mediterranean, Middle Eastern, African, European, or Australian descent and still be American. You can be from any countries in that area and be Asian, Caucasion, etc.

 

I did find it interesting that the AMA used the term "Mexican American" instead of Latino. I imagine they were referring to people whose ancestors were folded into the US after the treaties in the 1800s (before that, most of the southwest was part of Mexico.)

 

As to the number of foreign born in residencies, it is true that the US does not produce enough graduates from medical school to fill the slots in residency programs, especially for family practice and internal medicine. Those tracks just don't make as much money and the hours are much worse, less pay, more hours means not as many people want to go into those fields.

 

But we still need family care providers and internist so FMG's are needed.

 

I know American, white students that go overseas or to the Caribbean to medical school because they were not able to get into US schools (variety of reasons, mainly because of low MCAT scores), they are still considered FMG's when applying to residency. So that number of FMGs in the surveys has a good amount of white, Americans in it not just foreign born.

 

I actually said that in my post - that the AMA did not distinguish between those who went overseas to school but were citizens from those who are not.

Edited January 14, 2011 by Renee in FL