Help, I think I'm a post-evangelical. What do I do now?

[simka2]

 

Also, on another note, when I read the Bible, it's through the filter/glasses of the evangelical, or shall I name it modern mind? It's hard to read the Bible with fresh eyes and a fresh mind, when I don't really have a clear perspective yet. I need to get on a new mind before I can read the Bible, or do any Bible studies.

 

This has been a huge issue for me. It's as if when I read a verse, I hear a pastor or someone who spoke on it speaking, and it quickly takes on their interpretations. Then I have to emotionally stand toe to toe with them and consciously decide to not be swept away with their view.

 

I really struggle with this when it comes to bible studies that take out 1 word from a verse and say "in the original hebrew this means..... so, this is what the verse is really saying."

 

Really? have you factored the cultural understandings, the various dialects, that particular area's definitions...and all sorts of other ?'s come rolling into my mind. It's all to cookie cutter for me.

 

Anyway...I know that's not super helpful to you.

Pagan Christianity was very eye opening, and a good exercise in logic. One thing I will give some of the post-modern authors is...you are pretty free to disagree with them, without feeling ashamed.

[mom2a&z]

I've been wanting to share this with someone for a while, but the only one I can share this with is my husband, because all my friends are evangelicals. The few times I have tried to talk to my friends about my thoughts, it ends in unsatisfying disagreement. For example, last Thursday I went to my friend's house for tea. She had a book laying on her counter. The title of the book bothered me, so I decided to share my thoughts. We went back and forth for a while, and the conversation ended in a disagreement in semantics. We ended the conversation peacefully, but I was left with an unsatisfying feeling, like I don't have anyone to converse with, but my husband, who is like-minded. I told my husband about the book title conversation that night, and he suggested that I should just "be happy" for my friends who are reading Christian books and going to Ladies Bible studies, even when I disagree with the content of the study. I thought he was right, and I should be happy for them, which I am. So, I have resolved to be happy for my friends and their Bible studies, and to not express my disagreements when they come up, because it does no good for them or for our relationship. Now I'm feeling like I'm alone in the wilderness of the ex-evangelical with no company, and I don't know where to go from here.

 

I think where I want to go next is to study the ancient Christian church. However, I don't really know where to start, and I don't want it to lead to changing churches or converting to another religion. I'm very happy with my church, and I love my friends dearly. I just need something to study that presses me closer to God, and I can't find it in the usual evangelical circles.

 

I had been a member of different Southern Baptist Churches for most of my adult life, but more and more I felt I was missing something and I wasn't sure what it was. I loved my pastor and I had many good friends among the congregation.

 

I started reading the early Church Fathers like Justin Martyr, Ignatius of Antioch, Irenaeus of Lyons, Clement of Rome and others. I wanted to know what the ancient church taught and how they worshipped.

 

Now I'm in the process of becomming Catholic. Most of my Baptist friends have decided that I'm lost and am in need of their prayers. They don't understand why I no longer participate in the newest and popular Bible studies or why I'm not reading the latest evangelical book. My decision has affected those relationships for the worse. Luckily, my dh is also converting so he and I have lots to talk about and discuss.

 

I wish you luck on your spiritual journey wherever it leads you.

[iona]

i pmed you

[MamaSheep]

Yes, I can relate to you. Modern Christian books, music, speakers, and ladies' Bible studies: I cannot take them anymore. I have gone on a 3 year hiatus from ladies' Bible studies, Christian books and speakers, excluding my pastor. I only listen to Christian radio when my children request it, because I don't want to squelch their desire to sing songs to God. The more I stay away from those things the more they seem so odd when I hear quotes, book titles, video recordings, and testimonies. I still want to press closer to God though, just not through those means which I was used to using before.

 

I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings, and I understand that these things "speak" to some people, but I know what you mean. They seem rather trite and shallow to me too. And off target. I have never been "evangelical" and maybe that is why they seem so odd to me, but they are also one of the reasons I could never be "evangelical". Not the only reason, but they do factor in.

 

Also, on another note, when I read the Bible, it's through the filter/glasses of the evangelical, or shall I name it modern mind? It's hard to read the Bible with fresh eyes and a fresh mind, when I don't really have a clear perspective yet. I need to get on a new mind before I can read the Bible, or do any Bible studies.

 

That makes a certain amount of sense. Except that it seems like the best thing would be to be able to look at it with no preconceptions, or setting preconceptions aside, and let a set of "glasses" develop from that process, rather than trading one set of "glasses" for another and then looking at it through that. But I do see what you mean.

 

Hmmm....so a different "mind"/filter/glasses, but without reading the Bible and without going to another faith tradition/denomination/church/etc. That does sound kind of confusing, all right.

 

So what kinds of things are you looking for? How can we help?

[MamaSheep]

I love my church, my Christian friends, and my pastor's teaching style and content, so, I'm not looking to get converted to another religion, I just want to get to know God more, while avoiding all the evangelical mumbo-jumbo out there. I hope that makes sense.

 

I have 7 Internet Explorer tabs open now with book recommendations from this thread, and there seems like some good possibilities. I can't wait to "Look Inside" each one. :001_smile:

 

Oh I just saw this after I posted. I do understand, and just to be equally clear, I'm not looking to convert you to another religion. :) Just trying to help you find what you're looking for. I figure if God wants you converted, He'll do the converting. But I have done a bit of poking around myself over the years, and thought I'd see if there was anything I'd come across that might help you. I was just having a hard time figuring out how to recommend something that wasn't evangelical, but didn't represent any other specific religious perspective either. Most books have some bias in them, one way or another.

[JenniferB]

Hmmm....so a different "mind"/filter/glasses, but without reading the Bible and without going to another faith tradition/denomination/church/etc. That does sound kind of confusing, all right.

 

So what kinds of things are you looking for? How can we help?

 

I think you are right. I am confused. :lol: That's the trouble with being on the cusp of a mind shift. It's hard to articulate where you are and where you want to go. After hashing this out with all-y'all, I am compelled to study the ancient Christian mind and worship services. I am going into this with fear and trepidation, because I have heard several people say they converted after thoroughly studying the ancient Christian church. I don't want to convert, but I am compelled to study the topic nevertheless. Life is an adventure - weeeeeeee!

[milovany]

I'm all for studying about the ancient Christian church. Are you really prepared for that though? What will you do if you feel led to change churches or convert? It's just that I know a lot of people (including me) who were led to converting after studying ancient Christian teachings. I wish you well on your journey.

 

My knees are figuratively knocking in fear of this. I am compelled though. I must do what I am compelled to do, right?

 

This was where our family was exactly two years ago. We loved our then-church, we had committed ourselves to it in the way we knew how, we were frustrated with some things, sure, but we pressed on .... and then we started studying the early church and what actually happened (rather than continuing to think rather vaguely that it didn't really matter or that it happened in such-and-such a way) -- and our lives were turned upside down. But we wouldn't change a thing. We know God now in a way that didn't seem quite possible when we were trying to accomplish this in our own understanding, interpretations, and strength. May God bless you on your journey -- even if your world changes completely. :grouphug:

Edited December 21, 2010 by milovaný

[Britomart]

My knees are figuratively knocking in fear of this. I am compelled though. I must do what I am compelled to do, right?

 

This reminds me of the conversation from Sayers' Gaudy Night, when Harriet asks, "But how do we know when something is of over-mastering importance?" and the don answers her, "Why, when it has over-mastered us."

[MamaSheep]

I think you are right. I am confused. :lol: That's the trouble with being on the cusp of a mind shift. It's hard to articulate where you are and where you want to go. After hashing this out with all-y'all, I am compelled to study the ancient Christian mind and worship services. I am going into this with fear and trepidation, because I have heard several people say they converted after thoroughly studying the ancient Christian church. I don't want to convert, but I am compelled to study the topic nevertheless. Life is an adventure - weeeeeeee!

 

Hee hee...yeah, I can understand that cusp. I haven't been on quite the same cusp, but I've had my share of cuspishness in my life...lol...definitely an adventure, even when it pushes us out of our comfort zone. Maybe especially then.

 

I think a study of the early church is a very good thing. And a study of how and why the church has changed and developed over the centuries too. It has certainly helped to clarify some things for me. One caution is to keep in mind that each author you read will be presenting their discussion of the early church through their particular "filter" too. I have found it useful to read several different perspectives before drawing hard and fast conclusions. Also prayer is very useful--by which I mean sincere, heartfelt pleading with God to be shown the right way, the right thing, the right understanding. God really does respond in very interesting, and personal ways.

 

But yes, I think a lot of people who study the early church notice differences between that and the modern evangelical ways of doing things, and that does often lead to a conversion of one kind or another. But that can lead to good things too, new friends, new threads of inquiry--it's not all discomfort and loss. :grouphug:

Edited December 20, 2010 by MamaSheep

[laundrycrisis]

You might enjoy some of the books by Frank Schaeffer

 

 

.

[milovany]

 

-Facing East, by Frederica Mathewes-Green.

 

:iagree: I loved this book.

[cathmom]

Open communion is very important to me. I had no idea how important it was until we switched from an ELCA church to the United Methodist Church. I don't understand people who don't want fellow Christians to share communion with them just because they aren't the same denomination.

 

For Catholics that is not the reason, it's only a symptom of the situation. As Parrothead explained, Catholics do not see their communion as symbolic. We believe that it actually becomes the Body and Blood of Jesus. Because of that belief, we want to make sure that everyone who receives Jesus at a Catholic Church has the same understanding, one, to protect and honor the Body and Blood of Jesus, and two, because receiving the Eucharist together implies that we believe the same thing. But not even all Catholics are free to receive! Your soul must be a state of grace, ie, you haven't committed an unconfessed mortal sin. However, it is entirely the honor system. No one will quiz you as you go up the aisle!

 

 

I felt a little strongly when changing churches, as the Lutheran's didn't ask, but they didn't make a welcoming statement either. It's funny how I didn't feel super strongly about it until I went to a RC funeral, and was told by the person next to me that I couldn't go up with the others to receive communion. There were several of us that were a bit shocked. I really wanted to be at the altar, on my knees, because of my state of being at this child's funeral. I needed that communion with God, between me and God. I felt like they were saying I wasn't a enough of a Christian to share at their table.

 

I am very sorry that you felt that way. :grouphug: Everyone is always welcome to go up and receive a blessing from the priest, just cross your arms over your chest so he knows that you are not going to receive the Eucharist.

[milovany]

Alongside with what Chucki has said in regard to closed communion, please know that it's not necessarily a matter of "Are you a part of our [denomination/church/group]?If so, you can partake, but if not, you can't," either. In our church, which is Eastern Orthodox, you could kind of say that receiving the Eucharist is "closed" even to Orthodox people -- if they have not prepared to receive the Gifts in the way that the Church prescribes (which involves confession, repentance and fasting). As a result, there will usually be Orthodox people present who do not receive the Eucharist; it's not just un-Orthodox who are not allowed to partake. We really appreciate this.

[Colleen in NS]

"Read" human history. Ask the Holy Spirit to show you the thread of salvation in it. "Read" creation, read nature, hear how the heavens declare His glory. "Read" the Book of the Human Heart, its brokenness, its need of Jesus, its resilience, its eternity. "Read" the Book of Love -- how misunderstood it is! "Read" music. The Saint Matthew Passion (J. S. Bach) is a great place to start. "Read" your marriage. "Read" your children.

 

Then lie down and sleep. And dream. God is Spirit.

 

I loved your whole post, but esp. this part. Thank you.

 

And I lived in NJ (working with Youth With A Mission) for a couple of years, and I know what you mean.

 

Also, on another note, when I read the Bible, it's through the filter/glasses of the evangelical, or shall I name it modern mind? It's hard to read the Bible with fresh eyes and a fresh mind, when I don't really have a clear perspective yet. I need to get on a new mind before I can read the Bible, or do any Bible studies.

 

Do I ever understand this. I've had the same Bible since I was 18 (I'm 42 now), and I finally gave it away a few months ago because I couldn't read it without "hearing" others' interpretations in my mind. The highlights were there because I thought I should highlight certain verses, the letters of Jesus were in red (which was very distracting to me), and there were subtitles. I ended up finding a plain old inexpensive NIV with none of this stuff in it, and larger print for my 40ish eyes, lol. I still haven't "gotten into" it yet, but it's there, waiting for me to come back to it with fresh eyes and hopefully with some mental tools with which to study it properly (I never learned how to study it in context when I was younger). I want to come at it with a scholarly mind for awhile and to learn more about God and part of ancient history, rather than coming at it with trying to "get something" out of it for me. But I have to get this noise out of my head first, lol!

Edited December 21, 2010 by Colleen in NS

[elegantlion]

What a timely post. I was just pondering some of this today. We've just moved and dh wants to try church again, I'm on the fence.

 

I love the idea of getting a new bible, because my current one is highlighted, notated, and written in from sermons of someone has since been deemed not worthy to be a pastor (.....leaving vague on purpose...) There is no way I can look through that bible without seeing his name written in every book. In fact I haven't opened that particular bible in a few years, now I realize why. :glare:

[DawnM]

I am right there with you!

 

Honestly, it makes me sick.

 

I won't go into long detail, but my beef with our new church plant (our other church was branching out) that we decided to go with is so "hip" that they seem to have lost their true fellowship. Fellowship with each other, fellowship with Jesus.....it is all about being "cool" and having the worship team perform and the teens think it is cool to come.

 

We have decided to leave.

 

I really am wondering what exactly we are looking for. We can't seem to pinpoint what direction to go.

 

What I call "Christianese" drives me nuts! The pat/trite Christian speech of "oh, I will pray for you," or the "Well, God knew it was going to happen, it is all in his hands." This seems to replace genuine love, concern, care, and TIME you may need to spend getting your hands dirty helping someone!

 

I will be reading this thread with great interest as I feel much the same.

 

Dawn

 

 

I'm an avid reader of the Bible, but frankly I can't stand "modern" Christian books, music, Christian radio, most popular speakers, or ladies' Bible studies. There really isn't anyone popular in evangelical circles that I truly like as a writer, speaker, or performer.

 

I guess that I'm an anti-modern Christian, if that gives you another term to think about!

[Parrothead]

I think you are right. I am confused. :lol: That's the trouble with being on the cusp of a mind shift. It's hard to articulate where you are and where you want to go. After hashing this out with all-y'all, I am compelled to study the ancient Christian mind and worship services. I am going into this with fear and trepidation, because I have heard several people say they converted after thoroughly studying the ancient Christian church. I don't want to convert, but I am compelled to study the topic nevertheless. Life is an adventure - weeeeeeee!

:grouphug:

 

Ah, life at a crossroads. Go ahead and study the ancient Christian church. One of two things will happen. Either you will be even more convinced that you are on the right path already, or you will change directions.

[CandaceC]

What books would you all recommend for church history??

 

Thanks!

[simka2]

Just wanted to tell you that I did a ton of research on EO and didn't convert ( I even visited and spoke with a couple priests?). I highly respect it and find various parts beautiful, but there were other things I knew wouldn't work for me ;). So here's one who has looked into it, and not converted.

 

Now, I have found a very nice post-modern church with a liturgical style, communion is open, kids are in with us thru some of the service and they also have a great childrens' program.

 

Keep asking the questions!!!!

[Laurie4b]

I felt a little strongly when changing churches, as the Lutheran's didn't ask, but they didn't make a welcoming statement either. It's funny how I didn't feel super strongly about it until I went to a RC funeral, and was told by the person next to me that I couldn't go up with the others to receive communion. There were several of us that were a bit shocked. I really wanted to be at the altar, on my knees, because of my state of being at this child's funeral. I needed that communion with God, between me and God. I felt like they were saying I wasn't a enough of a Christian to share at their table.

 

:iagree: I don't even have words for how I feel about that.

[Mommyfaithe]

I absolutely hate it when scripture is taken out of the original context!

 

I believe that God makes 'excellent lemonade' from the lemons that sin brings into our lives.

 

I actually had a 'spiritual evangelical person' say to me "It was God's will that you lost your baby" (3rd trimester still birth)... I had another 'Christian' say that it was God's will that I was 'abused' when I was a child... sheesh did these people actually listen to what they were saying????

 

I believe that God has a plan for our lives-- I also believe that we have FREE WILL--and that we are all sinners. I believe that God knows the choices that we will make--and that our 'sin' grieves Him--but that because of Jesus and the Gospel we have the CHOICE of salvation.

 

I am disheartened by the contemporary evangelical 'formula' for Christianity-- go to Church every Sunday, pray xxx many minutes every morning, read xxx of the Bible every day, do xxx many Bible studies... do all of the above and God will 'bless' you for it and nothing too 'bad' will happen-- this just does not mesh with the Bible (just read about what happened to Peter and Paul when they obeyed God and went out into the world!).

 

I consider myself evangelical because I believe that God has asked us to join Him in HIS Great Commission... it is all about God-- not about us and how 'good' we are (because we aren't.) I believe that my relationship with God is between Him and me-- but I also believe that Christians are called to 'Live Out Loud'... (this does not mean shove the Gospel down the throats of others--but rather letting God love others THROUGH us).My church friends and family just don't understand why I believe this way...

 

Jann, I could have wriiten this post. This is exactly where I am in my walk with the Lord. The part I bolded is how I feel as well. There is a saying "Preach the Gospel always. Use words only when necessary."

 

Thanks for expressing my thoughts so well in words. My baby did not die because God wanted my baby to die, and I was not abused for some great purpose.....but these are facts in my life and I am greatful that God loves me and I have come through these things a strong woman.

 

Faithe

[mom4him]

Basically, I can't do a Bible study written by an evangelical without something grating on my nerves. The number of things that grate on me are numerous, but I'll name a few to give you an idea:

 

• The verse, "all things work together for good for those who love God and are called according to his purposes," is often used to "comfort" people who have gone through a great tragedy. What many evangelicals say is that a terrible thing might be happening to you now, but God will make it work for your good in the end. Maybe you'll learn a good lesson, or become closer to God, or become a better Christian, etc. etc. I don't think God wants totally awful things to happen to teach us lessons or make us closer to him.

• Whatever happens in this world, no matter how awful, is "God's will." The word "will," is defined in a strange way by evangelicals, like God doesn't really want bad things to happen, but he let's them happen anyway so that his greater purpose is accomplished. When I think of the word "will," I think it means "want." I don't think everything that happens is God's will. I think he doesn't want people to do bad things, and when they do, he is grieved.

• Evangelical leaders often exaggerate to make a point. This bothers me greatly, especially when it's in a book that a bunch of people will read.

• Evangelicals sometimes try too hard to be relevant and hip to the world to gain more members or book sales, and in some circles they will totally disengage from society and become Christian hermits looking down on everyone else who doesn't follow their exact persuasion of Christianity.

 

Well, I think that's enough for now. If you are reading this and you are evangelical, please don't take offense to my above statements. I do not mean to cause any offense. I am just expressing my views about ideas, but it's not meant to be personally hurtful to anyone, and I hope it wasn't. :blush:

These are all things that were a major reason my two kiddos and I left the last church we attended. They were lovely people. I just couldn't handle all the regulations that they had for you in order for you to 'truly' be a Christian.

We have found a church full of lovely people that love people for who they are in Christ not if they wear the right length of skirt or girls/ladies wear a skirt/dress instead of pants/jeans. I believe that God looks at our heart not what we wear.ETC.

:grouphug:

[Remudamom]

Maybe you're reformed. We're rather a dark group, you know! 8)

[QueenCat]

Of course. Although it was the teaching of the pastor/church which taught her that communion wasn't a big deal & could be used as if it were a snack during the service. May not be this way at every UMC but it was at this one.

 

The United Methodist Church does NOT teach that communions isn't a big deal, or a snack. Having lived in a few places, thus a member at more than one UMC, I know this is NOT a part of our theology or Book of Discipline (tells you the hows and whys of everything we do). I am very sorry your son and your mil have experienced such a thing but it not sanctioned by the overall UMC, I can guarantee you.

[QueenCat]

I grew up United Methodist (still am I guess although I haven't attended in about 3 years). We attended 3 different churches during my childhood/teen years. At all of them, children did not receive communion until after they were Confirmed at 12/13 years old after attending Confirmation Classes for about 3 months. Children usually attended the church service for the first part, then left prior to the sermon to attend Sunday School classes. Communion was the first Sunday of the month and was done after the children left.

 

ETA: For adults, any Christian was welcome to partake.

 

Very different than the three I've attended. Children can and do receive communion prior to Confirmation. I don't see many younger than 8-9 though. In all of the UMC's we've belonged to, on Communion Sunday, the children came back from Childrens Church to join their parents for Communion. They could receive a blessing if they didn't take the bread/juice. Our current church does not have Childrens Church. Sunday School at all of the churches was different than Childrens Church. SS was at the same time for children and adults.

[Word Nerd]

I haven't read any except the first page of replies. Are you already familiar with the late Michael Spencer, the Internet Monk? His book Mere Churchianity came out a few months after he died, and he wrote about this topic frequently on his blog.

[Caitilin]

This reminds me of the conversation from Sayers' Gaudy Night, when Harriet asks, "But how do we know when something is of over-mastering importance?" and the don answers her, "Why, when it has over-mastered us."

 

Britomart, you've just quoted one of my very favorite books--:001_wub::cheers2: traditional Anglican here too! :)

[QueenCat]

 

I am very sorry that you felt that way. :grouphug: Everyone is always welcome to go up and receive a blessing from the priest, just cross your arms over your chest so he knows that you are not going to receive the Eucharist.

 

The priest did not say all were welcome to come up. I don't remember what he said. I think that's because I was surprised to have communion at a funeral, and suddenly glad to be having it, preparing myself for it. Then, we started to get up (group of preschool teachers), and one of the people in the row behind us told us it was only for the Catholics, they knew we weren't part of their congregation. I was already emotionally charged as it was the funeral for one of our students, so the shock of this person saying not to go up, just really hurt. I had a very long conversation with a Catholic neighbor when I got home, where she explained how it is different for Catholics but honestly, I still have issues with it. We are all ONE church, the family of Christ. When we willfully separate ourselves, like not welcoming others, it tears people away from Christ, not towards Him.

[MamaSheep]

Just wanted to tell you that I did a ton of research on EO and didn't convert ( I even visited and spoke with a couple priests?). I highly respect it and find various parts beautiful, but there were other things I knew wouldn't work for me ;). So here's one who has looked into it, and not converted.

 

Now, I have found a very nice post-modern church with a liturgical style, communion is open, kids are in with us thru some of the service and they also have a great childrens' program.

 

Keep asking the questions!!!!

 

I didn't convert to EO either. Or RC. But I did learn a lot of interesting things.

[QueenCat]

Quote:

Originally Posted by CathieC

I felt a little strongly when changing churches, as the Lutheran's didn't ask, but they didn't make a welcoming statement either. It's funny how I didn't feel super strongly about it until I went to a RC funeral, and was told by the person next to me that I couldn't go up with the others to receive communion. There were several of us that were a bit shocked. I really wanted to be at the altar, on my knees, because of my state of being at this child's funeral. I needed that communion with God, between me and God. I felt like they were saying I wasn't a enough of a Christian to share at their table.

 

QUOTE=Laurie4b;2273592]:iagree: I don't even have words for how I feel about that.

 

Unfortunately, this thread has brought back some feelings I thought I'd gotten over, but obviously haven't. I'm stunned that people think that because we don't believe exactly as they do that our communion is not sacred. We do confess and repent, but not fast. Got to go take a chill on this one.

[milovany]

Unfortunately, this thread has brought back some feelings I thought I'd gotten over, but obviously haven't. I'm stunned that people think that because we don't believe exactly as they do that our communion is not sacred. We do confess and repent, but not fast. Got to go take a chill on this one.

 

Please forgive me if I offended in any way with my explanation of our preparation for the Eucharist.

[Parrothead]

Quote:

Originally Posted by CathieC

I felt a little strongly when changing churches, as the Lutheran's didn't ask, but they didn't make a welcoming statement either. It's funny how I didn't feel super strongly about it until I went to a RC funeral, and was told by the person next to me that I couldn't go up with the others to receive communion. There were several of us that were a bit shocked. I really wanted to be at the altar, on my knees, because of my state of being at this child's funeral. I needed that communion with God, between me and God. I felt like they were saying I wasn't a enough of a Christian to share at their table.

 

QUOTE=Laurie4b;2273592]:iagree: I don't even have words for how I feel about that.

 

Unfortunately, this thread has brought back some feelings I thought I'd gotten over, but obviously haven't. I'm stunned that people think that because we don't believe exactly as they do that our communion is not sacred. We do confess and repent, but not fast. Got to go take a chill on this one.

 

No one said that Catholics or EO or any other denomination think your communion is not sacred.

 

I explained (probably badly)that there is a procedure that Catholics believe is necessary before Catholics or converts receive First Holy Eucharist in the Catholic church. A visitor (of another denomination or religion) to a Catholic church is asked not to participate in reception of the Eucharist because they have not followed the procedure.

 

It isn't because Catholics think they are better Christians or better people. If you've ever been led to think that then I am sorry.

[i.love.lucy]

I'm an avid reader of the Bible, but frankly I can't stand "modern" Christian books, music, Christian radio, most popular speakers, or ladies' Bible studies. There really isn't anyone popular in evangelical circles that I truly like as a writer, speaker, or performer.

 

I guess that I'm an anti-modern Christian, if that gives you another term to think about!

:iagree:

:iagree: It seems that perhaps some of the trouble is associated with a denominational identity. I've never run into what you're describing and we've been in 'evangelical' churches for more than 30 years. Even though we're in a denominational church, the association is LOOSE and the focus is on JESUS, first. If someone told me that we should/should-not do something because it 'fit' a denominational mold, I'd dismiss it immediately because we don't consider ourselves 'said denomination member' but Christians.

:iagree it would be nice to not have to identify with a particular denomination with some churches.

Maybe you're reformed. We're rather a dark group, you know! 8)

:D

[lionfamily1999]

No one said that Catholics or EO or any other denomination think your communion is not sacred.

 

I explained (probably badly)that there is a procedure that Catholics believe is necessary before Catholics or converts receive First Holy Eucharist in the Catholic church. A visitor (of another denomination or religion) to a Catholic church is asked not to participate in reception of the Eucharist because they have not followed the procedure.

 

It isn't because Catholics think they are better Christians or better people. If you've ever been led to think that then I am sorry.

Our church does a warning before communion, reminding us all of the dangerous position we are putting ourselves in if we are taking communion without proper preparation (we're Baptist).

 

I did not know that Catholics would not allow a non-member to take part in the Eucharist, but I understand why and (even though I would not be allowed) I'm comforted that they would protect others from a possibly damaging mistake.

 

It's not that I'm not Christian enough, it's that I have not done the preparations the Catholic Church has set out to fulfill the requirements laid out in scripture. At our church, we'll let anyone take communion, but we warn you of the possible consequences.

[8circles]

Unfortunately, this thread has brought back some feelings I thought I'd gotten over, but obviously haven't. I'm stunned that people think that because we don't believe exactly as they do that our communion is not sacred. We do confess and repent, but not fast. Got to go take a chill on this one.

 

I don't really know what the UMC as a whole believes about communion, but I know what MIL's understanding of it is as a lifelong UMC'er. My story was about my experience only. MIL used her own understanding about what her church teaches to do something... not OK. & her church (specifically, not the UMC in entirety) sanctioned it.

[lisamarie]

I think taking the time to research early church fathers, research other denominations, research their theologies (you can find these on the church websites), this is all good. Even if you don't change churches, you will better understand what you believe and why it's important to you. Going into our church search, I never dreamed I would be jumping off the Evangelical bandwagon.

 

Open communion is very important to me. I had no idea how important it was until we switched from an ELCA church to the United Methodist Church. I don't understand people who don't want fellow Christians to share communion with them just because they aren't the same denomination.

 

I couldn't wrap my mind around that either and refused to goto a church that practiced closed communion. I was pretty surprised that I even had such strong opinions on my beliefs because I'd been going to the same type of church my whole life and never really thought about just where I stood.

 

Yes, I can relate to you. Modern Christian books, music, speakers, and ladies' Bible studies: I cannot take them anymore. I have gone on a 3 year hiatus from ladies' Bible studies, Christian books and speakers, excluding my pastor.

 

Also, on another note, when I read the Bible, it's through the filter/glasses of the evangelical, or shall I name it modern mind? It's hard to read the Bible with fresh eyes and a fresh mind, when I don't really have a clear perspective yet. I need to get on a new mind before I can read the Bible, or do any Bible studies.

 

This is where I am at. I don't want watered down, feel good, "name it and claim it" modern books, I want meat and potatoes. Every time I come across something written by a church father, I am inspired. Reading most modern books do not inspire me nearly as much.

 

 

I still haven't "gotten into" it yet, but it's there, waiting for me to come back to it with fresh eyes and hopefully with some mental tools with which to study it properly (I never learned how to study it in context when I was younger). I want to come at it with a scholarly mind for awhile and to learn more about God and part of ancient history, rather than coming at it with trying to "get something" out of it for me. But I have to get this noise out of my head first, lol!

 

I am not sure if it's just the phase I am in or if it has to do with HSing, but the Bible has come alive in a completely different way. I am putting the Bible into historical context (gasp!:D). Things that were just words before are actually making sense now that I have some ancient history background. Having a Bible atlas to see where these things physically occurred, having our school history timeline putting things together chronologically, it is helping me to study the Bible differently and to actually get something out of it beyond just wisdom for my current situation. I think I am approaching it more now as a text book if that makes sense.

[Parrothead]

Our church does a warning before communion, reminding us all of the dangerous position we are putting ourselves in if we are taking communion without proper preparation (we're Baptist).

 

I did not know that Catholics would not allow a non-member to take part in the Eucharist, but I understand why and (even though I would not be allowed) I'm comforted that they would protect others from a possibly damaging mistake.

 

It's not that I'm not Christian enough, it's that I have not done the preparations the Catholic Church has set out to fulfill the requirements laid out in scripture. At our church, we'll let anyone take communion, but we warn you of the possible consequences.

I'm so glad you are so very understanding.

 

I'm a cradle Catholic and fairly nomadic. I don't think I've every been to a Catholic church that announced before Mass of the "requirement." There is a bit printed on the inside front cover of every missalette I've ever seen, but no announcement.

 

ETA: Really, honestly, any given priest will not know if one is a visitor from another parish or from another denomination. If someone from another denomination or religion got into line and held out his hands I'm sure this person would receive Eucharist. So there isn't an out-and-out refusal to deny non-Catholics of the Blessed Sacrament. Technically if CathieC had not listened to the parishoner and gone to receive she would have, in the eyes of the church, received her First Holy Communion. And there are exceptions to every rule. It could be argued that she did not have the knowledge needed to make an informed choice so the intent would not be there for it to be a mortal sin. If she had followed through in her distraught state she very well could have become Catholic had she partaken of the Eucharist.

Edited December 21, 2010 by Parrothead

[myfatherslily]

Thanks for starting this thread. I've read with great interest.

 

This is where I am at. I don't want watered down, feel good, "name it and claim it" modern books, I want meat and potatoes. Every time I come across something written by a church father, I am inspired. Reading most modern books do not inspire me nearly as much.

I am not sure if it's just the phase I am in or if it has to do with HSing, but the Bible has come alive in a completely different way. I am putting the Bible into historical context (gasp!:D). Things that were just words before are actually making sense now that I have some ancient history background. Having a Bible atlas to see where these things physically occurred, having our school history timeline putting things together chronologically, it is helping me to study the Bible differently and to actually get something out of it beyond just wisdom for my current situation. I think I am approaching it more now as a text book if that makes sense.

 

That's it, that's what I want - a Classical church! A church that knows the old stuff is good, too, and that "old" doesn't mean 95 years ago. A church that doesn't just stuff in the facts, but encourages you to think and use the beautiful mind that God gave you. A church that humbly admits that there's a lot to learn, and we don't know it all. And a church that expects children to learn as well, filling their mind with wonderful things, rather than using Children's Church as a babysitting hour.

 

I don't want a textbook church, but that's exactly what I have. Thanks for helping me figure that out;)

[HRAAB]

I'm so glad you are so very understanding.

 

I'm a cradle Catholic and fairly nomadic. I don't think I've every been to a Catholic church that announced before Mass of the "requirement." There is a bit printed on the inside front cover of every missalette I've ever seen, but no announcement.

 

Usually at weddings and funerals the priest will make an announcement prior to Communion including the invitation for non-Catholics to come up for a blessing, if they wish. Except for my mom's funeral. My cousin went up to Communion, walked back to the pew with the host and gave it to her dd who then put it in her pocket. I was horrified but unable to do anything at the time. I did not blame my cousin; there is no way she would know what to do (although handing the host over to her dd seemed a little odd irregardless of the church). If the priest had made an announcement first, this wouldn't have happened.

[cathmom]

I don't think I've every been to a Catholic church that announced before Mass of the "requirement." There is a bit printed on the inside front cover of every missalette I've ever seen, but no announcement.

 

The priest who married dh and me announced, "As always, Catholics in a state of grace may feel free to come up and receive Communion." Dh and I had told him during wedding preparations that very few of the guests were practicing Catholics. Dh and I were kneeling right in front of the altar and Communion was happening behind us. When we got the video, we were shocked that most of our guests did receive.

 

I can see announcing this at weddings and funerals because so frequently there are people there who are not Catholic.

 

The reason for having Communion during a funeral is because it is a funeral Mass, and Mass always includes Communion, unlike many Protestant services.

[Parrothead]

Usually at weddings and funerals the priest will make an announcement prior to Communion including the invitation for non-Catholics to come up for a blessing, if they wish. Except for my mom's funeral. My cousin went up to Communion, walked back to the pew with the host and gave it to her dd who then put it in her pocket. I was horrified but unable to do anything at the time. I did not blame my cousin; there is no way she would know what to do (although handing the host over to her dd seemed a little odd irregardless of the church). If the priest had made an announcement first, this wouldn't have happened.

You know, I've never been to a Catholic wedding. Dh and I had a convalidation ceremony once he came into full communion with the church.

[Parrothead]

Thanks for starting this thread. I've read with great interest.

 

 

 

That's it, that's what I want - a Classical church! A church that knows the old stuff is good, too, and that "old" doesn't mean 95 years ago. A church that doesn't just stuff in the facts, but encourages you to think and use the beautiful mind that God gave you. A church that humbly admits that there's a lot to learn, and we don't know it all. And a church that expects children to learn as well, filling their mind with wonderful things, rather than using Children's Church as a babysitting hour.

 

I don't want a textbook church, but that's exactly what I have. Thanks for helping me figure that out;)

You'll get all that from the Catholic church. You'd also get all that from the Orthodox church.

[texasmama]

Basically, I can't do a Bible study written by an evangelical without something grating on my nerves. The number of things that grate on me are numerous, but I'll name a few to give you an idea:

• The verse, "all things work together for good for those who love God and are called according to his purposes," is often used to "comfort" people who have gone through a great tragedy. What many evangelicals say is that a terrible thing might be happening to you now, but God will make it work for your good in the end. Maybe you'll learn a good lesson, or become closer to God, or become a better Christian, etc. etc. I don't think God wants totally awful things to happen to teach us lessons or make us closer to him.
  
• Whatever happens in this world, no matter how awful, is "God's will." The word "will," is defined in a strange way by evangelicals, like God doesn't really want bad things to happen, but he let's them happen anyway so that his greater purpose is accomplished. When I think of the word "will," I think it means "want." I don't think everything that happens is God's will. I think he doesn't want people to do bad things, and when they do, he is grieved.
  
• Evangelical leaders often exaggerate to make a point. This bothers me greatly, especially when it's in a book that a bunch of people will read.
  
• Evangelicals sometimes try too hard to be relevant and hip to the world to gain more members or book sales, and in some circles they will totally disengage from society and become Christian hermits looking down on everyone else who doesn't follow their exact persuasion of Christianity.
  

Well, I think that's enough for now. If you are reading this and you are evangelical, please don't take offense to my above statements. I do not mean to cause any offense. I am just expressing my views about ideas, but it's not meant to be personally hurtful to anyone, and I hope it wasn't. :blush:

 

Thank you for this explanation.:grouphug: to you. I am on some sort of quest myself...or rather some sort of non-quest as I sift through my beliefs and know that while the core of them is very stable and unchanging, as the character of God is, I am not sure that I "get" some of the things such as the ones you describe. Right now, I have not really said anything to anyone IRL except that I dont' really enjoy going to church anymore. I said this to my dh and my best friend. My dh asked what we should do about this. I told him I didn't know and wasn't sure that anything needed to be "done" about it. I have had enough spiritual crises in my life and have walked enough miles and hard things that I think the best thing to do at times is nothing. With time and patience and not throwing the baby out with the bathwater, the answers become more clear...or I become more comfortable with no answers. I'll let you know how that works out for me.;)

[Little Nyssa]

I sympathize with your feelings, since I was in the same place years ago. I wanted a church I could continue to grow in, not just conversion and that's it. I have also found great help in the church fathers. Also try Anthony Bloom, Beginning to Pray. And Mother Theresa's book, the one based on her letters.

 

I was worried when I read your post at first that you were losing your faith altogether. Thank God that's not what's going on. :)

[QueenCat]

Please forgive me if I offended in any way with my explanation of our preparation for the Eucharist.

 

Oh, don't worry, you didn't offend me. You were trying to be helpful. I've known the explanation for years, just don't agree with anything that separates instead of brings Christians together. The communion thing is touchy because of the situation it came up in.

[texasmama]

Jennifer B, :grouphug:

 

I agree with Simka, and I'm so glad she posted her thoughts -- that reading the Bible or studying a devotional guide is not what makes me a growing Christian. It has taken me a long time to come to terms with this.

 

For what it's worth, years ago I went to (and finished) seminary. I worked hard, I studied, I lived alone... I had a dark night of the soul... I had a terrible thyroid condition... and yes, I grew spiritually. But when that season of life was done, I had to learn to walk down another path, one that was not in any way connected to my earlier expectations for "service" or "ministry" or "missions." There was a time of learning to not regret my obedience to Christ. We often think that we would regret disobedience to Him... but what happens when we obey Him, follow where we believe He has led us, do all that we know to do, and then the path seems to end in a jumbled, dead-end tangle of weeds? It was still His leading.

 

It turned out to be okay with me that my expectations came to nothing. It turned out to be okay that to others I looked like an idiot. In that quiet change of pace and circumstance, God asked me what I wanted from Him -- not the other way around. It surprised me, really, after all those years of hearing the rhetoric, "Do _____ for the Lord! Be a brave soldier for Jesus!" It had not occurred to me, until the doors wouldn't open, that Jesus never actually originated this particular strain of bleed-out-your-last-drop, militant troop-mustering.

 

How surprising, to think that He knew me....

 

I'm still amazed that God knew where I was, that He knew deeper inside of me than I knew myself, that He pinned me down in my heart of hearts, to bring me to the place where I acknowledged that what I really wanted was to be married, to have a family... and that was so hard to even say, because that was something I could not "make happen."

 

I was so ready to go to Unga-Bunga and be crucified for Him. Yet here I am. I am still ready. I would still go, I would still pay any price to live or die for Jesus. In truth, I am waiting for Jesus to come. He is not waiting for me to "go." I live in the hard, hostile, rocky, barren land of New Jersey. Can you imagine how I cry out for Jesus to come here? To dwell here? To reveal Himself here? I am convinced there is not a place on Earth that is more desperate (in despair, hopeless) than New Jersey. Will anyone intercede for New Jersey?

 

One day, the thought came to me, "If I was separated from my Bible, my books, and other believers, what would remain in me? What relationship do I have with Jesus on my own, apart from the printed pages?"

 

I'm not dismissing the need to read, meditate, and (at times) study. I was simply wondering to myself if Jesus Himself is dependent on those books to relate to me, to connect with me, to (all the time) speak to me.

 

Yes, and no. His Word is His Word, I know. He Himself is also the Word, and so He is more than the printed words to me. Does that make sense? So much of the Bible can be written on our hearts... and by His Spirit He speaks to our spirits. Nothing contrary to the written Word, but somehow "up off the pages."

 

May I suggest to you a season of reading something other than books? :001_smile: "Read" human history. Ask the Holy Spirit to show you the thread of salvation in it. "Read" creation, read nature, hear how the heavens declare His glory. "Read" the Book of the Human Heart, its brokenness, its need of Jesus, its resilience, its eternity. "Read" the Book of Love -- how misunderstood it is! "Read" music. The Saint Matthew Passion (J. S. Bach) is a great place to start. "Read" your marriage. "Read" your children.

 

Then lie down and sleep. And dream. God is Spirit. He "moves my furniture" when I dream. Praying for you...

 

All of this made me cry. Beautifully expressed.

[justamouse]

Jennifer B, :grouphug:

 

I agree with Simka, and I'm so glad she posted her thoughts -- that reading the Bible or studying a devotional guide is not what makes me a growing Christian. It has taken me a long time to come to terms with this.

 

For what it's worth, years ago I went to (and finished) seminary. I worked hard, I studied, I lived alone... I had a dark night of the soul... I had a terrible thyroid condition... and yes, I grew spiritually. But when that season of life was done, I had to learn to walk down another path, one that was not in any way connected to my earlier expectations for "service" or "ministry" or "missions." There was a time of learning to not regret my obedience to Christ. We often think that we would regret disobedience to Him... but what happens when we obey Him, follow where we believe He has led us, do all that we know to do, and then the path seems to end in a jumbled, dead-end tangle of weeds? It was still His leading.

 

It turned out to be okay with me that my expectations came to nothing. It turned out to be okay that to others I looked like an idiot. In that quiet change of pace and circumstance, God asked me what I wanted from Him -- not the other way around. It surprised me, really, after all those years of hearing the rhetoric, "Do _____ for the Lord! Be a brave soldier for Jesus!" It had not occurred to me, until the doors wouldn't open, that Jesus never actually originated this particular strain of bleed-out-your-last-drop, militant troop-mustering.

 

How surprising, to think that He knew me....

 

I'm still amazed that God knew where I was, that He knew deeper inside of me than I knew myself, that He pinned me down in my heart of hearts, to bring me to the place where I acknowledged that what I really wanted was to be married, to have a family... and that was so hard to even say, because that was something I could not "make happen."

 

I was so ready to go to Unga-Bunga and be crucified for Him. Yet here I am. I am still ready. I would still go, I would still pay any price to live or die for Jesus. In truth, I am waiting for Jesus to come. He is not waiting for me to "go." I live in the hard, hostile, rocky, barren land of New Jersey. Can you imagine how I cry out for Jesus to come here? To dwell here? To reveal Himself here? I am convinced there is not a place on Earth that is more desperate (in despair, hopeless) than New Jersey. Will anyone intercede for New Jersey?

 

One day, the thought came to me, "If I was separated from my Bible, my books, and other believers, what would remain in me? What relationship do I have with Jesus on my own, apart from the printed pages?"

 

I'm not dismissing the need to read, meditate, and (at times) study. I was simply wondering to myself if Jesus Himself is dependent on those books to relate to me, to connect with me, to (all the time) speak to me.

 

Yes, and no. His Word is His Word, I know. He Himself is also the Word, and so He is more than the printed words to me. Does that make sense? So much of the Bible can be written on our hearts... and by His Spirit He speaks to our spirits. Nothing contrary to the written Word, but somehow "up off the pages."

 

May I suggest to you a season of reading something other than books? :001_smile: "Read" human history. Ask the Holy Spirit to show you the thread of salvation in it. "Read" creation, read nature, hear how the heavens declare His glory. "Read" the Book of the Human Heart, its brokenness, its need of Jesus, its resilience, its eternity. "Read" the Book of Love -- how misunderstood it is! "Read" music. The Saint Matthew Passion (J. S. Bach) is a great place to start. "Read" your marriage. "Read" your children.

 

Then lie down and sleep. And dream. God is Spirit. He "moves my furniture" when I dream. Praying for you...

 

that is just the most beautiful post.

[JenniferB]

I wanted to thank everyone for their insights and recommendations. It was wonderful spending today with you on this topic. I enjoyed the conversation very much. Through a series of clicks I found this website which has the writings of the church fathers online, and available for pdf download. I downloaded my first installment, and I'm reading "The First Apology of Justin" translated by Philip Schaff tonight. Wouldn't it be fun to discuss these books in a separate venue, like a social group?

 

Here's a link to the website I referenced above: http://www.ccel.org/

[Parrothead]

I wanted to thank everyone for their insights and recommendations. It was wonderful spending today with you on this topic. I enjoyed the conversation very much. Through a series of clicks I found this website which has the writings of the church fathers online, and available for pdf download. I downloaded my first installment, and I'm reading "The First Apology of Justin" translated by Philip Schaff tonight. Wouldn't it be fun to discuss these books in a separate venue, like a social group?

 

Here's a link to the website I referenced above: http://www.ccel.org/

I've never read either of St. Justin Martyr's Apologies. I'm sure they would be interesting. Unfortunately I could not find The First Apology of Justin in the link you provided even using the browse button on the site.

[JenniferB]

I've never read either of St. Justin Martyr's Apologies. I'm sure they would be interesting. Unfortunately I could not find The First Apology of Justin in the link you provided even using the browse button on the site.

 

Here you go, I hope this works:

 

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.viii.ii.html

 

I got here by going to "Search" and then typing in "First Apology." I think it was the first link, "The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Iranaeus." Then I clicked on Table of Contents to get to the First Apology.