Help, I think I'm a post-evangelical. What do I do now?

[Parrothead]

Here you go, I hope this works:

 

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.viii.ii.html

 

I got here by going to "Search" and then typing in "First Apology." I think it was the first link, "The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Iranaeus." Then I clicked on Table of Contents to get to the First Apology.

Thanks!

[JenniferB]

What if you get what you don't want?

 

I guess that would be a harsh reality. I often wonder if I know Jesus at all. Then something really cool happens, like an answered prayer, or grace under fire, or an opportunity to minister his love in an unexpected way (I'm thinking of specific instances while I type this), then I know that he knows me, and I rest in that for a little while, and I feel that I know him.

[MamaSheep]

I wanted to thank everyone for their insights and recommendations. It was wonderful spending today with you on this topic. I enjoyed the conversation very much. Through a series of clicks I found this website which has the writings of the church fathers online, and available for pdf download. I downloaded my first installment, and I'm reading "The First Apology of Justin" translated by Philip Schaff tonight. Wouldn't it be fun to discuss these books in a separate venue, like a social group?

 

Here's a link to the website I referenced above: http://www.ccel.org/

 

That sounds fun to me. I'm not sure how active I could be in a lengthy discussion at the moment due to other "stuff" in my life needing to take priority, but if you start one I'd love to at least know about it and try to pop in from time to time. :)

[jvenice]

It sounds to me like you are diligently seeking Him, and not the fodder that is put into the 'Christian trough'. So many Christians never go deeper than what is written by others to inspire them, and it seems like you are simply in a new place in your spiritual journey.

 

You might consider a study (not formal, just you and the Lord) on Paul. We should test our faith and study His word to clear things up, ask new questions, etc. He will never be intimidated or bothered by your questions. By going deeper in your relationship with God, new and exciting opportunities expand.

 

Allow your friends to have their opinions and simply seek Him. Tell Him all about what you are thinking. If you get off track, He will find you and bring you back to His plan and purpose as long as you are diligently seeking Him. He may just have a new adventure for you!

[Britomart]

Oh my goodness, I just realized that after all those good books that I recommended outside my own branch of Christianity, there was one from within I really should have mentioned: The Divine Conspiracy, by Dallas Willard. It is thick, thick going, but so brilliant, and written with the kindest of spirits, and very, very much about being a disciple of Christ, which seems to be where the heart of this thread is headed.

 

I read it when I was a young college student, about 10 years ago, and just finished my second reread of it now as wife and mother, and it's one of those books where there was more to meet me the second time around, and my guess is that, 10 years from now, I'll find more still. Hope it helps.

[sagira]

You'll get all that from the Catholic church. You'd also get all that from the Orthodox church.

 

:iagree:

 

This is one the things I like the most about our RC. The humility that we don't know everything, that God, although personal and loving, is so big and awesome that He works in ways we don't quite comprehend. And that's okay. I trust Him. My ds has had to think a lot in his religious education classes, and the answers are not just stuffing in facts, but issues he grapples with and getting to know the character of God. His classes encourage him to think, not just to regurgitate information. He's getting prepared for his First Holy Communion next year in May.

 

To the OP, all the best on your spiritual journey. Many times I think those are the most exciting and personal we can have.

Edited December 21, 2010 by sagira

[at the beach]

My knees are figuratively knocking in fear of this. I am compelled though. I must do what I am compelled to do, right?

:grouphug: Many blessings to you on your journey.

[Chris in VA]

I know in the Anglican church they say you can take communion if you're a baptized Christian who acknowledges the real presence of Christ in the elements. So that's the tradition I'm a part of.

 

Just wanted to say that dh the Episcopal priest says this varies from diocese to diocese--for example, we do NOT have the italicized part in our beliefs; we offer communion to anyone who is baptised as a Christian and can take communion in their own church--and that last part is what our diocese adds.

[laughing lioness]

Have you read Pagan Christianity? It put words to my own disquiet with church and it's "stuff." I reveiwed it here.

We know scores (literally) of people who have left the evengelical church and basically just don't go anymore. They are still Christians but they just don't do the "church thing" becasue of all of the baggage.

I don't think Viola and Barna got it down perfectly, but they do name at least part of the problem. They also talk about Christianity as being "tribal" rather than denominational. I can relate to that~!

[QueenCat]

No one said that Catholics or EO or any other denomination think your communion is not sacred.

 

I explained (probably badly)that there is a procedure that Catholics believe is necessary before Catholics or converts receive First Holy Eucharist in the Catholic church. A visitor (of another denomination or religion) to a Catholic church is asked not to participate in reception of the Eucharist because they have not followed the procedure.

 

It isn't because Catholics think they are better Christians or better people. If you've ever been led to think that then I am sorry.

 

Chucki,

I'm sorry if I upset you. No one directly said it wasn't sacred, except for the implication that it is no big deal or a snack, but it sounds like that was someone's private family issue and one church, since I know it is not the UMC's stance. You didn't explain it badly. It's me, and the experience I was going through when I was told I couldn't receive communion even though I'm a Christian. I feel like anything that separates Christians is something to be concerned about, and for me, again because I was there for a child's funeral, it is a bit emotional for me. I'm a little better this morning, and hope you know I didn't mean to offend you.

Cathie

[laundrycrisis]

Have you read Pagan Christianity? It put words to my own disquiet with church and it's "stuff." I reveiwed it here.

 

 

 

The author also has another book that might be interesting:

 

The Untold Story of the New Testament Church: An Extraordinary Guide to Understanding the New Testament Frank Viola

 

 

[8circles]

Chucki,

I'm sorry if I upset you. No one directly said it wasn't sacred, except for the implication that it is no big deal or a snack, but it sounds like that was someone's private family issue and one church, since I know it is not the UMC's stance. You didn't explain it badly. It's me, and the experience I was going through when I was told I couldn't receive communion even though I'm a Christian. I feel like anything that separates Christians is something to be concerned about, and for me, again because I was there for a child's funeral, it is a bit emotional for me. I'm a little better this morning, and hope you know I didn't mean to offend you.

Cathie

 

OK - I should know better than start to post on such a thread when my children are sick but I'll plead crazy with all the pre-Christmas planning & stress. I'm sorry I posted something that sounded so insensitive & then didn't explain/clarify. Truly Cathie, I'm sorry.

 

It is quite OT from the OP & this is winding down so I won't try to restate except to say that I didn't mean any of my comments to be a slam against the UMC denomination even though I don't believe my negative experience is solely "family issues".

 

That being said, I think what my original reason for posting any of this was more about the ability to find fault among any denomination & on the other hand finding the trueness & Holiness in many denominations as well.

 

I'm truly sorry if I offended anyone. & my children are still sick so I'll :auto:.

[Heather in OK]

Jennifer ~ Your post was SO refreshing to read!! :grouphug: My dh and I are in a similar place right now. We're going to try visiting a house church in a few weeks but something in me isn't sure that's the answer for us right now.

 

I hope you don't mind me jumping in here. I just have a lot of questions and am searching myself. Like you, there is no one to talk to other than my dh so this is such a wonderful chance to "talk" everything through and get it out there. I'll apologize in advance for the overuse of quotes...but like I said, it's so refreshing to read that there are others who have been in or who are in this place. Many of you have expressed what I have been muddling through but can't quite put into eloquent words.

 

Try to remember, God hasn't/doesn't change and discovering His real nature is a journey....Even though people/church may go one way, if we know what God says about something, we don't need to be influenced by the world if it's going against the Word. I hope you won't be discouraged to follow Jesus even though people are sinners and fallible. He always has the answers to our questions. And most of the time, He IS the answer.

Speaking for myself, it's not a matter of not following Jesus. It's trying to find a church that we are comfortable in, that has the beliefs we do (the Apostle's Creed pretty much sums it up for me), and isn't "out there". I'm tired of sitting through a church service being talked to and watching people try to drum up emotion during worship. I don't want to continue to sit thru simply because God hasn't changed and I am uncomfortable in the service but I want to muddle through not being influenced by fallible people.

 

Girl Meets God by Lauren Winner

Which copy? The memoir or On the Path to a Spiritual Life?

 

He might be calling you to a different branch of His church, and the books above will help you learn more about that.

Thank you so much for the book suggestions!!! And I think the first part of that statement sums up where I am right now. I've explored the Orthodox church but it's not of interest to my dh. However I feel there is a draw to a different branch, as you said.

 

So much of the Bible can be written on our hearts... and by His Spirit He speaks to our spirits. Nothing contrary to the written Word, but somehow "up off the pages."

Yes! ITA with your points about being separated from those things and evaluating what is left in you.

 

I'll put it out there (this is something that only my dh and I can discuss with each other) that I have questions about the Bible itself. One thing about church and some followers that I have a hard time with is the emphasis put on the Bible. Yes, it is sacred. Yes, it is The Word. Yes, I believe it is important and should be studied. However, what we read is what was chosen by man to be included. There are portions of the Scripture that were not included. With that in mind, I think a more important point to consider is who are we with Jesus? It's about relationship. It's not about how often I have read my Bible, how many Scriptures I have memorized, etc. While knowing Scripture can help me know Christ, it's not the most important thing.

 

I'm an avid reader of the Bible, but frankly I can't stand "modern" Christian books, music, Christian radio, most popular speakers, or ladies' Bible studies. There really isn't anyone popular in evangelical circles that I truly like as a writer, speaker, or performer.

Yes, me too!

 

That's it, that's what I want - a Classical church! A church that knows the old stuff is good, too, and that "old" doesn't mean 95 years ago. A church that doesn't just stuff in the facts, but encourages you to think and use the beautiful mind that God gave you. A church that humbly admits that there's a lot to learn, and we don't know it all. And a church that expects children to learn as well, filling their mind with wonderful things, rather than using Children's Church as a babysitting hour.

YES!!! And a church that shows a respect for these things. One that realizes all of this really means something (i.e. on the topic of communion...it's not just something you usher through a line on the 4th Sunday of the month because the Bible says to do it) and recognizes the holiness of God.

 

And yes, I know Catholic and/or Orthodox would fit that bill but as I said above, it's not where my dh and I feel we should be right now. Maybe with more reading and searching we'll get there eventually. I don't know. We're just starting our journey.

 

 

Jennifer ~ I'll be confused right along with you. It all seems so daunting and scary to be taking this step. But also very exciting! I would love to see a social group here on this topic!!

[Carol in Cal.]

Speaking for myself, it's not a matter of not following Jesus. It's trying to find a church that we are comfortable in, that has the beliefs we do (the Apostle's Creed pretty much sums it up for me), and isn't "out there". I'm tired of sitting through a church service being talked to and watching people try to drum up emotion during worship. I don't want to continue to sit thru simply because God hasn't changed and I am uncomfortable in the service but I want to muddle through not being influenced by fallible people.

 

I hate this, too. Emotions are often part of worship for me, but emotionalism is disgusting. I dislike being manipulated, and to have that happen during worship is intolerable. I am conservative Lutheran, and as such I believe that most of what happens during worship is that God comes to us--much more so than we approaching him. We use a creed (usually the Apostles or Nicene creed, but once a year the Athanasian one) in each worship service, and we can't help learning them by heart because of that. Our worship at its best focusses on Word and Sacrament--Bible readings and a sermon as well as some liturgical pieces and hymns for the 'Word' part, and Holy Communion with hymns and liturgy for the Sacrament part. We use historic liturgies that connect us with the Church throughout the centuries, but in the vernacular. That's a wonderful way to worship and also to bring up children--pre-literate kids learn the liturgy and creeds long before they can read them.

 

 

Which copy? The memoir or On the Path to a Spiritual Life?

"On The Path To A Spiritual Life" is what my copy says, but it's a memoir really, so I think that there is just one book.

 

Thank you so much for the book suggestions!!! And I think the first part of that statement sums up where I am right now. I've explored the Orthodox church but it's not of interest to my dh. However I feel there is a draw to a different branch, as you said.

 

 

I'll put it out there (this is something that only my dh and I can discuss with each other) that I have questions about the Bible itself. One thing about church and some followers that I have a hard time with is the emphasis put on the Bible. Yes, it is sacred. Yes, it is The Word. Yes, I believe it is important and should be studied. However, what we read is what was chosen by man to be included. There are portions of the Scripture that were not included. With that in mind, I think a more important point to consider is who are we with Jesus? It's about relationship. It's not about how often I have read my Bible, how many Scriptures I have memorized, etc. While knowing Scripture can help me know Christ, it's not the most important thing.

 

Yes, knowing God through Christ is the key to Christian life. The Word and Sacraments are the tools that God used to show Himself to us, but are subordinate to Him. I have to say, that what I've learned about the origin of Scripture convinces me that the choices were guided by God. Generally Scripture was selected by consensus of established usage, very early in the life of the Church. What a gift!

 

YES!!! And a church that shows a respect for these things. One that realizes all of this really means something (i.e. on the topic of communion...it's not just something you usher through a line on the 4th Sunday of the month because the Bible says to do it) and recognizes the holiness of God.

 

And yes, I know Catholic and/or Orthodox would fit that bill but as I said above, it's not where my dh and I feel we should be right now. Maybe with more reading and searching we'll get there eventually. I don't know. We're just starting our journey.

 

 

I wish that you could visit my church or one like it--not just because I think it's good, but because I have sought the balance that you seek, and I have found it here. We are part of the church catholic, but are still contemporary. We are timeless but still historical. We follow the liturgy but are not enslaved to it or to unintelligible language. We focus on the Bible but realize that it's just a means for God to accomplish His ends.

 

May God lead you where He wants you to be!

[Colleen in NS]

What books would you all recommend for church history??

 

Thanks!

 

:lurk5:

 

I am not sure if it's just the phase I am in or if it has to do with HSing, but the Bible has come alive in a completely different way. I am putting the Bible into historical context (gasp!:D). Things that were just words before are actually making sense now that I have some ancient history background. Having a Bible atlas to see where these things physically occurred, having our school history timeline putting things together chronologically, it is helping me to study the Bible differently and to actually get something out of it beyond just wisdom for my current situation. I think I am approaching it more now as a text book if that makes sense.

 

Yes, this totally makes sense!! And it has to do with homeschooling for me, too. Without doing a WTM-style education with my kids, I don't know if I'd have understood that the Bible should be put into historical context, or how to do it. I need to do it. I just still leave it sitting there, hoping the "noise" will go away from my mind someday, so that I can freshly concentrate on it.

 

That's it, that's what I want - a Classical church! A church that knows the old stuff is good, too, and that "old" doesn't mean 95 years ago. A church that doesn't just stuff in the facts, but encourages you to think and use the beautiful mind that God gave you. A church that humbly admits that there's a lot to learn, and we don't know it all. And a church that expects children to learn as well, filling their mind with wonderful things, rather than using Children's Church as a babysitting hour.

 

You'll get all that from the Catholic church. You'd also get all that from the Orthodox church.

 

This is really embarrassing, but I grew up in the Catholic church, but I don't remember having my mind filled with knowledge of God. I remember learning specific prayers, the Apostle's Creed, making my First Communion, and getting confirmed. I didn't go to CCD (what does that stand for, anyway?) classes very often; my parents divorced when I was 9 and my Mom left the RC church when I was around 12 (my father made sure I was confirmed then, though), so I never really was around it again, except for relatives' funerals and weddings. Which brings me to my question; how does the Catholic church and the Orthodox church "do" these things that myfatherslily mentioned above? I have no clue. What simple books could I read about this?

 

Here's a link to the website I referenced above: http://www.ccel.org/

 

Thanks for the link - I'll be exploring that.

 

something really cool happens, like an answered prayer, or grace under fire, or an opportunity to minister his love in an unexpected way (I'm thinking of specific instances while I type this), then I know that he knows me, and I rest in that for a little while, and I feel that I know him.

 

I enjoyed reading this bit.

 

Have you read Pagan Christianity?

 

I enjoyed this book.

[QueenCat]

OK - I should know better than start to post on such a thread when my children are sick but I'll plead crazy with all the pre-Christmas planning & stress. I'm sorry I posted something that sounded so insensitive & then didn't explain/clarify. Truly Cathie, I'm sorry.

 

It is quite OT from the OP & this is winding down so I won't try to restate except to say that I didn't mean any of my comments to be a slam against the UMC denomination even though I don't believe my negative experience is solely "family issues".

 

That being said, I think what my original reason for posting any of this was more about the ability to find fault among any denomination & on the other hand finding the trueness & Holiness in many denominations as well.

 

I'm truly sorry if I offended anyone. & my children are still sick so I'll :auto:.

 

Allison,

I'm terrible at written communication, at least during the past 24 hours. Sometimes it's so hard to say what we mean in this venue. I was really trying to apologize to one member, and ended up offending you. I said I thought it was a family and specific church thing, not the UMC as a whole, which you say as well (the UMC part).No church or denomination is perfect, as all are run by humans, and all of us would do better if we focused on what's right and our relationship with God.

Cathie

[daughterofsarah77]

Hard To Believe, by John Piper

 

I have been in much the same place as you. Everything is so "surfacey" in much the Evangelical world. My dh and I have been disqusted with the "seeker-friendly" churches who seem more concerned about appealing to the "world" rather than telling the truth about God.

 

By nothing but absolute providence, we have found a wonderful church that seems to be meeting our needs. I am growing, for the first time in a looong time. I am asking the difficult questions, and feeling prepared to find answers to them.

[8circles]

Allison,

I'm terrible at written communication, at least during the past 24 hours. Sometimes it's so hard to say what we mean in this venue. I was really trying to apologize to one member, and ended up offending you. I said I thought it was a family and specific church thing, not the UMC as a whole, which you say as well (the UMC part).No church or denomination is perfect, as all are run by humans, and all of us would do better if we focused on what's right and our relationship with God.

Cathie

 

No offense taken here. I thought I had done the offending. :tongue_smilie:

[JenniferB]

I just wanted everyone to know that I started a social group called "Seeking Jesus from Age to Age."

 

I tried to invite everyone from this thread, but I may have missed some. If you would like to join the group, just go to "Community," "Social Groups," and you should see it there.

 

I hope we can have some lively discussions over there. :D

[justamouse]

Have you read Pagan Christianity? It put words to my own disquiet with church and it's "stuff." I reveiwed it here.

We know scores (literally) of people who have left the evengelical church and basically just don't go anymore. They are still Christians but they just don't do the "church thing" becasue of all of the baggage.

I don't think Viola and Barna got it down perfectly, but they do name at least part of the problem. They also talk about Christianity as being "tribal" rather than denominational. I can relate to that~!

 

 

That book was my saving grace when I was walking out of the church. I bought it way back when he self published them-there is a whole series. I'm so glad you read it and liked it.

Edited December 21, 2010 by justamouse

[laughing lioness]

It was refreshing to see some constructive criticism from w/in the evangelical community. Evangelical kids- those raised in Ev homes, leave the "faith" at a rate of 96% within months of going to college. Seems like a pretty clear indication that "church" as we know it isn't "taking" or that it's just performance based.

We meet people of our "tribe" all over- but rarely in church. It can be a lonely world.

[Carol in Cal.]

Hi Colleen,

I used the Concordia Publishing House curriculum: Church History with my DD in 7th grade. It is a semester-long 1/2 class curriculum, so easy to add in with whatever else you are doing with Bible (in our case it was Confirmation classes). It starts with Pentecost (or maybe the Ascension?) and goes through a couple of years ago. Since my DD had studied world history so much, it was particularly interesting to study the same material with a Christian slant. You might like it!

Merry Christmas, Carol

[lisamarie]

I came across this website a few weeks ago and it has some great reading of the church fathers addressing various topics. You can also subscribe to their newsletter for free. I gave the link to the page with the topical newsletters, but if you poke around the site more, it has links to lots of things by the church fathers.

 

http://www.chapellibrary.org/broadcaster/

 

It was refreshing to see some constructive criticism from w/in the evangelical community. Evangelical kids- those raised in Ev homes, leave the "faith" at a rate of 96% within months of going to college. Seems like a pretty clear indication that "church" as we know it isn't "taking" or that it's just performance based.

We meet people of our "tribe" all over- but rarely in church. It can be a lonely world.

 

Ya know, I think that statistic is one the driving forces in my wanting to find a new church. I went to church for 30 years and barely grew spiritually from anything I got out of church. The sermons were bland, they rarely challenged me, and I mostly went out of duty. I was afraid that this would be the heritage that I passed down to my kids and that they would leave the Christian faith because the church we were at was so "seeker friendly" that the messages never challenged.

 

Finding my new church was a real breath of fresh air--the sermons almost always challenge me, they stick in my head weeks later (a sure sign that I am actually "hearing" them). Our pastor tells it like it is--hard hitting and makes you think and examine your life. He always ends his sermons with how to apply it practically to our lives. Seeing as there are only 2 other families in the church with kids and the rest of the members are over the age of 60, you know that we're there because God called us, not because of the social aspect.:lol:

[texasmama]

I just wanted everyone to know that I started a social group called "Seeking Jesus from Age to Age."

 

I tried to invite everyone from this thread, but I may have missed some. If you would like to join the group, just go to "Community," "Social Groups," and you should see it there.

 

I hope we can have some lively discussions over there. :D

 

I would love to join this, but I don't see a "Community" section of the board. Can someone help me, please?

[texasmama]

I would love to join this, but I don't see a "Community" section of the board. Can someone help me, please?

 

Per Murphy's Law, the instant after I posted this, I found it.:tongue_smilie:

[DawnM]

That is alarming!

 

So, what Christian groups do NOT have 96% leaving or not being involved after leaving home?

 

Dawn

 

It was refreshing to see some constructive criticism from w/in the evangelical community. Evangelical kids- those raised in Ev homes, leave the "faith" at a rate of 96% within months of going to college. Seems like a pretty clear indication that "church" as we know it isn't "taking" or that it's just performance based.

We meet people of our "tribe" all over- but rarely in church. It can be a lonely world.

[Marylou]

That is alarming!

 

So, what Christian groups do NOT have 96% leaving or not being involved after leaving home?

 

Dawn

 

http://www.amazon.com/Already-Gone-your-kids-church/dp/0890515298/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top

[prairiebird]

That is alarming!

 

So, what Christian groups do NOT have 96% leaving or not being involved after leaving home?

 

Dawn

 

I also wonder what the stats are on those who leave- in college, for example- and then come back on their own.

[MamaSheep]

That statistic sounds a bit high to me. I decided to do a little googling on the subject. This was the first thing I found.

 

http://www.christianpost.com/article/20070614/college-not-public-enemy-for-religiosity-study-shows/

Researchers at The University of Texas at Austin found that college attendance appears to prevent young adults from losing their religion, contradicting widely held assumptions that students leave the church or their faith altogether during their college years.

The surprising research went further to find that those who never attended college had the highest rates of decline in church attendance (76.2 percent), diminished importance placed on religion (23.7 percent), and disaffiliation from religion (20.3 percent). Students who earned at least a bachelor's degree, on the other hand, had the lowest rates on those three factors with 59.2 percent indicating decreased church attendance and 15 percent placing less importance on religion and disaffiliating from religion.

"Simply put, higher education is not the enemy of religiosity that so many have made it out to be," researchers wrote in their "Losing My Religion" report which is featured in the June issue of the journal Social Forces.

[Parrothead]

:iagree:

 

His classes encourage him to think, not just to regurgitate information. He's getting prepared for his First Holy Communion next year in May.

 

 

This is heartwarming. Dd's FHC/Confirmation classes were awful. There was a lot of things I had to do at home. I'm glad your boy is getting a good solid beginning. And early congratulations on his FHC.

 

Chucki,

I'm sorry if I upset you. No one directly said it wasn't sacred, except for the implication that it is no big deal or a snack, but it sounds like that was someone's private family issue and one church, since I know it is not the UMC's stance. You didn't explain it badly. It's me, and the experience I was going through when I was told I couldn't receive communion even though I'm a Christian. I feel like anything that separates Christians is something to be concerned about, and for me, again because I was there for a child's funeral, it is a bit emotional for me. I'm a little better this morning, and hope you know I didn't mean to offend you.

Cathie

Nope, I was never upset. I'm sorry you were made to feel unwelcome. If you read back about page 10 you'll find a more extensive explanation of things. Really if you had gone up to receive the Eucharist, it could be argued that you had joined the church and become Catholic. ;)

 

Then again, it could be argued that you committed a very grave sin. So...

[Parrothead]

 

This is really embarrassing, but I grew up in the Catholic church, but I don't remember having my mind filled with knowledge of God. I remember learning specific prayers, the Apostle's Creed, making my First Communion, and getting confirmed. I didn't go to CCD (what does that stand for, anyway?) classes very often; my parents divorced when I was 9 and my Mom left the RC church when I was around 12 (my father made sure I was confirmed then, though), so I never really was around it again, except for relatives' funerals and weddings. Which brings me to my question; how does the Catholic church and the Orthodox church "do" these things that myfatherslily mentioned above? I have no clue. What simple books could I read about this?

 

Wait! You were confirmed in the Catholic church? You know you can come back at any time right? Throwing that out there just in case. ;)

 

What you have is a view of the Church from the perspective of a child. Everything you remember is colored by that perspective. And I'd be willing to bet that you've forgotten a lot of what you learned. Also remember everything you were given was given as age appropriate material.

 

CCD stands for Confraternity of Christian Doctrine. The fact that you didn't go to classes very often makes me wonder if you were one of those like my dd who was simply "shoved" through the process.

 

For years and years Catholics were done a great disservice. Once one received the Sacrament of Confirmation one was perceived to be "finished" with religious ed. Often times the parish priest did not see those confirmed again until they were planning a wedding.

 

This is changing ever so slowly at the parish level with young priests wanting to institute adult classes, and at the diocesan level by bishops who are finding their charges are hungry for more.

 

Books.. hmm... I've got so many and there are so many out there. Give me a specific topic.

 

There is so much we can talk about if you are remotely interested in learning about what you received as a child. PM me if you want to travel that road.

[JenniferB]

http://www.amazon.com/Already-Gone-your-kids-church/dp/0890515298/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top

 

I found the comments on this book from the Amazon site quite interesting, especially the ones who gave it 1 star.

[Parrothead]

I also wonder what the stats are on those who leave- in college, for example- and then come back on their own.

I know in my faith, many leave for college but come back about they time they are ready to marry. There are also often a great many who carry their faith to college with them.

[Parrothead]

That's it, that's what I want - a Classical church! A church that knows the old stuff is good, too, and that "old" doesn't mean 95 years ago.

The Catholic church (and I'm pretty sure the Orthodox chruch) is pretty big on Tradition with a capital T. We believe that when Jesus said, "You are Peter and on this rock I will build My church" He meant is as Peter will lead the Church after the Ascension. Peter becoming the first pope. And the traditions of revering the Blessed Virgin Mary. So very little is written of Mary in the Bible. Because of that many Bible-based Protestants have fallen away from having much if anything to do with the BVM. Catholics have Tradition to fall back on. And Tradition started with the Apostles. If they did it 2000 years ago, we still do it now.

 

A church that doesn't just stuff in the facts, but encourages you to think and use the beautiful mind that God gave you.

Let me just say, that yes, Catholics and Orthodox are allowed to read and study the Bible. We Catholics are encouraged to study the Bible, and the Catechism of the Catholic Church. We are allowed to speak to our parish priest about any concerns we may find while studying. I haven't yet come across a parish that is big on adult Sunday school, but there are small groups that meet at other times during the week and in some places those involved in the religious education program have larger classes/programs.

 

A church that humbly admits that there's a lot to learn, and we don't know it all.

So much to say about this. If you are getting this message from your present church, please search elsewhere. Only God knows it all.

 

And a church that expects children to learn as well, filling their mind with wonderful things, rather than using Children's Church as a babysitting hour.

Children are welcome at every Mass said every day of the week. It is preferred that children are at Mass. How else would they hear the Word? How else would they learn what happens at Mass?

 

The age of reason according to the Church is 7. Most parishes require 1 to 2 years of preparation for First Holy Communion. That means that by 5 children should be attending Mass regularly with their parents.

 

I do know there are some Catholic churches that do some kind of Children's chruch during the priest's homily, but unless there is more than one Mass available for the adults in charge of the children's program those adults pretty much need to be at Mass too. Children's church isn't something one will find regularly.

 

 

I don't want a textbook church, but that's exactly what I have. Thanks for helping me figure that out;)

I'm quoting you to answer Colleen's question. Hope you don't mind. Good luck in your search.

[MamaSheep]

... And Tradition started with the Apostles. If they did it 2000 years ago, we still do it now.

 

I think this is a lovely idea, and I agree that Peter was the leader of the church after Jesus ascended. I really don't want to start a big argument or anything, but as lovely as the idea is, I just don't think that it's the reality. For example, 2000 years ago the church had apostles. And an open canon. I do understand some of the reasons these things are no longer part of the Catholic church, but I still don't think it's quite accurate to say that the Catholic church does everything the Christian church did at the time of Jesus and the original apostles.

[Parrothead]

I think this is a lovely idea, and I agree that Peter was the leader of the church after Jesus ascended. I really don't want to start a big argument or anything, but as lovely as the idea is, I just don't think that it's the reality. For example, 2000 years ago the church had apostles. And an open canon. I do understand some of the reasons these things are no longer part of the Catholic church, but I still don't think it's quite accurate to say that the Catholic church does everything the Christian church did at the time of Jesus and the original apostles.

Well, if you want to be all exact and stuff. No, not everything. Like when was the pipe organ invented? ;) :lol:

 

 

ETA: That was me being humorous. And you are right. Looking at what I said as I said it makes me in the wrong. I forget sometimes that some people take things at their absolute literal meaning. So yes, of the traditions that survived the over the past 2000 years those traditions are still being carried on.

Edited December 22, 2010 by Parrothead

[MamaSheep]

Well, if you want to be all exact and stuff. No, not everything. Like when was the pipe organ invented? ;) :lol:

 

:lol:

 

Yeah.... Only to me apostles and pipe organs are at differing levels of theological or ecclesiastical importance. And of course these are not the only variants.

 

And then...both the RC and the EO (and others, like the Coptic branch) all claim to have the original apostolic tradition--except they are different from each other. And there are reasons for the schism(s).

 

But then...I am LDS partly because I am convinced that it is, as it claims, a divine restoration of apostolic authority and authentic tradition.

Edited December 22, 2010 by MamaSheep

[lisamarie]

I found the comments on this book from the Amazon site quite interesting, especially the ones who gave it 1 star.

 

That's kinda funny. 1 guy who hadn't even read the book and 2 people slamming it simply because Ham pushes a "young earth" creation. I admit that after reading the book, I thought that Ham was pretty biased and drew conclusions that I wouldn't necessarily draw. I thought he put way too much emphasis on the teaching of the creation of the world being the reason kids were leaving church. I don't agree with that. It could be ONE factor, but not THEE factor. There is so much more to it and Ham didn't even touch those reasons which disappointed me. But, it was still an eye-opening read and I would recommend it.

[Colleen in NS]

Hi Colleen,

I used the Concordia Publishing House curriculum: Church History with my DD in 7th grade. It is a semester-long 1/2 class curriculum, so easy to add in with whatever else you are doing with Bible (in our case it was Confirmation classes). It starts with Pentecost (or maybe the Ascension?) and goes through a couple of years ago. Since my DD had studied world history so much, it was particularly interesting to study the same material with a Christian slant. You might like it!

Merry Christmas, Carol

Thank you, Carol, this reminded me of a book I have about church history - so I went and browsed it last night. That should be helpful, because then I can take topics from it and look for other library/amazon books about what I'm interested in. I've been around churches all my life, yet there are so many terms/ideas I am unfamiliar with.

[Wayfaring Stranger]

:lol:

 

And then...both the RC and the EO (and others, like the Coptic branch) all claim to have the original apostolic tradition--except they are different from each other. And there are reasons for the schism(s).

 

 

 

There are reasons for the schism but that does not mean that all three of these churches do not have the apostolic tradition on most things. One of the reasons for the schism is the leadership of the Pope (as Chucki said earlier). The Orthodox do not agree. We think Peter was a leader as first among equals of the apostles (Those called by Christ, the 11, Paul and Mathias). All bishops, priests, deacons and laymen (priesthood of all believers, saints whatever you want to call the non ordained Christians) can be traced back to these apostles. They went around as told in the book of Acts and set up bishops (or elders) in various areas. One of these bishops is James (not an apostle) who was the bishop in Jerusalem. When Peter and Paul disagreed the Church held a council and James (as head of the local church) presided. If the Pope ever came back, he would still be the first among equals (like Metropolitan Bartholomew of Constantinople is now) but would still only have one vote.

 

My understanding is that Catholic and Coptic Christians could join the Orthodox Church (and take communion) by confession because we agree on a lot Protestants have to be chrismated but not baptized, because the Orthodox recognize the baptism of most Protestants. (my dad is a Protestant pastor and he does not recognize infant baptism as valid so most Orthodox would have to be re-baptized in his church).

 

Good luck, JenniferB. If you want to know the historic church I know of no books. The ocean is too deep and the sea is too wide to fit in a book. All I can say is "come and see".

Edited December 22, 2010 by Father of Pearl

[Colleen in NS]

The fact that you didn't go to classes very often makes me wonder if you were one of those like my dd who was simply "shoved" through the process.

 

Oh darn, I am in a rush this morning and there are some more interesting posts after this for me to read....I'll come back to them later today.

 

I didn't go to classes very often because my early family life was pretty rocky....I remember going to Sunday School (or CCD? I don't remember what it was called) in 1st grade, because that's when I made my First Communion. After that, we moved, and things got shaky....I do remember having a book at home that my mother had me study, when I was in upper elementary maybe? I don't know, and I don't remember anything from the book. All I know is that there wasn't consistency in Catholic "religious education" because of our family situation.

[Paisley Hedgehog]

nm

[athomemom]

I have read every single post with great interest. Is there a difference in Post-Evangelical and the emerging church?

[lionfamily1999]

Sorry it took so long to respond. I've been busy with Christmas miracles :D Yes, my head is bursting to share, but I must not derail. ;)

I'm so glad you are so very understanding.

 

I'm a cradle Catholic and fairly nomadic. I don't think I've every been to a Catholic church that announced before Mass of the "requirement." There is a bit printed on the inside front cover of every missalette I've ever seen, but no announcement.

 

ETA: Really, honestly, any given priest will not know if one is a visitor from another parish or from another denomination. If someone from another denomination or religion got into line and held out his hands I'm sure this person would receive Eucharist. So there isn't an out-and-out refusal to deny non-Catholics of the Blessed Sacrament. Technically if CathieC had not listened to the parishoner and gone to receive she would have, in the eyes of the church, received her First Holy Communion. And there are exceptions to every rule. It could be argued that she did not have the knowledge needed to make an informed choice so the intent would not be there for it to be a mortal sin. If she had followed through in her distraught state she very well could have become Catholic had she partaken of the Eucharist.

I understand. That's why I get a little uncomfortable when they start announcing it before communion... dh is wishy washy and now he avoids service on those days, because he would be embarrassed not to partake, but he knows too much to take part.

Usually at weddings and funerals the priest will make an announcement prior to Communion including the invitation for non-Catholics to come up for a blessing, if they wish. Except for my mom's funeral. My cousin went up to Communion, walked back to the pew with the host and gave it to her dd who then put it in her pocket. I was horrified but unable to do anything at the time. I did not blame my cousin; there is no way she would know what to do (although handing the host over to her dd seemed a little odd irregardless of the church). If the priest had made an announcement first, this wouldn't have happened.

:iagree:

[Scarlett]

I just want to state how impressed I am that a thread with this title is 15 pages long and hasn't been locked and no one has been banned.

 

 

:D

[MamaSheep]

There are reasons for the schism but that does not mean that all three of these churches do not have the apostolic tradition on most things. One of the reasons for the schism is the leadership of the Pope (as Chucki said earlier). The Orthodox do not agree. We think Peter was a leader as first among equals of the apostles (Those called by Christ, the 11, Paul and Mathias). All bishops, priests, deacons and laymen (priesthood of all believers, saints whatever you want to call the non ordained Christians) can be traced back to these apostles. They went around as told in the book of Acts and set up bishops (or elders) in various areas. One of these bishops is James (not an apostle) who was the bishop in Jerusalem. When Peter and Paul disagreed the Church held a council and James (as head of the local church) presided. If the Pope ever came back, he would still be the first among equals (like Metropolitan Bartholomew of Constantinople is now) but would still only have one vote.

 

My understanding is that Catholic and Coptic Christians could join the Orthodox Church (and take communion) by confession because we agree on a lot Protestants have to be chrismated but not baptized, because the Orthodox recognize the baptism of most Protestants. (my dad is a Protestant pastor and he does not recognize infant baptism as valid so most Orthodox would have to be re-baptized in his church).

 

Good luck, JenniferB. If you want to know the historic church I know of no books. The ocean is too deep and the sea is too wide to fit in a book. All I can say is "come and see".

 

Thank you for your kind response. I was a bit hesitant even to bring the subject up. I have great respect for those churches who strive so valiantly to uphold traditional Christianity as they understand it. I just wanted to gently point out that there is a lack of consensus on some important issues, such as the original structure and function of church leadership, as you point out. And it does not seem logical to me that all of the 'historic' traditions, which are different, represent THE original form of Christianity.

 

FWIW, all members of the LDS priesthood trace their authority back through Peter, James, and John, and through them to Christ.

[DawnM]

As I understand it: Post Evangelical is the term given for former Evangelicals who have left the Evangelical movement for something else, it may be the emergent church, it may not.

 

The emergent church is something that I can't really define. Here is an article about some of it:

 

http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2007/february/11.35.html

 

If someone can break it down and say what it really is, I would be interested.

 

Dawn

 

 

I have read every single post with great interest. Is there a difference in Post-Evangelical and the emerging church?

[JenniferB]

The emergent church is something that I can't really define. Here is an article about some of it:

 

http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2007/february/11.35.html

 

If someone can break it down and say what it really is, I would be interested.

 

Dawn

 

Even though I've read about it, I can't explain it. I can just say that I'm not interested in it.

[athomemom]

Okay, so the emergent church and post evangelicalism is NOT the same...

 

Let's just say that I am so not with modern church lingo. :blushing: However, I too have gone through many issues lately and can't really even describe how I feel.

 

I do believe in God and I am a Christian, but I lack many answers to questions that I have.

 

:grouphug:

[simka2]

Okay, so the emergent church and post evangelicalism is NOT the same...

 

Let's just say that I am so not with modern church lingo. :blushing: However, I too have gone through many issues lately and can't really even describe how I feel.

 

I do believe in God and I am a Christian, but I lack many answers to questions that I have.

 

:grouphug:

 

No, and the emergent church is very different in different places :D But, we are definately an interesting lot!!!!