Thoroughly disgusted. WWYD?

[Tidbits of Learning]

The student in question is not my own child; she is 15 or 16 years old. She simply cut and pasted the synopsis off a website. She changed nothing, nothing at all. I know she has not received decent writing instruction at home--but this is inexcusable. :cursing::banghead: :mad:

 

There is no excuse for copying someone else's work. Is this an academic co-op? Are grades given?

With a 15 or 16 year old, I would give her the paper back stapled to the original off the web. I like the previous posters choice of giving the child the option to tell their parent and then follow up with a meeting.

High school is time for the real world and real world consequences. Whether that be a failing grade or only being able to make a 70 on the redo paper or if grades aren't involved-a meeting with the parents.

I do think that you have to have prior skills in order to be able to write a paper. Maybe the parents need to be made aware that this is a weak area that their child needs to work on before college.

I do wonder though how you found the exact web site that she copied from and wonder if there might not have been some talk of her copying and some tattling happening as well. This is just my first thought as there are so many web sites out there that it seems unlikely that it just came to you that she plagairised.

[Gwenhwyfar]

I've never heard of being expelled from high school classes for plagiarism. Drugs, yes; guns, yes, plagiarism, no.

 

 

same. i don't think they even could ~ expulsion is a VERY serious thing and i doubt it could be done for that...

 

i'd talk to the girl. find out what happened - at this point all that's known is that she copied something. i'd want to find out what led up to that - why did she do it? ... i'd need that question answered before i could do anything else with the situation.

[hsmom]

I agree that an F and expelled from the class is in order.

 

There is no reason to take in account hsled, co-op, ps, or anything for that matter. They all should be treated the same.

 

Why make an exception for one because of a simple thing like knowing they did not get a good writing background. Because later on when you find out a student that had an excellent writing background did the same thing, you will treat it the same. Not any different for any student.

 

At that age it is the child/student who makes a lot of the decisions of what they need to do or should be doing. I mean they are almost a legal adult and need to take responsibility for their actions and take the consequences that go along with them.

[hsmom]

Now I know here in High School if that is done and you get caught you fail the class not questions asked. You are put into another class, study hall something. Also to go along with it they call your parents, you get detention, etc. Then you have the option to retake the class next year, but for that year you have failed.

 

This is a serious problem and a lot of schools are taking action to try to correct the problem.

[ktgrok]

Of course, we don't really know the details. Word for word seems like shameless plagiarizing but maybe she's just really good at remembering the paragraph and when she recreated it from her out line, she got lucky.

 

I'd totally forgotten, but that used to happen to me all the time!!!! People thought I was cheating on tests and such because I'd spout back the information word for word. I just have a really good memory and didn't even realize I was doing it.

 

But what the OP describes is different. I'd give a 0, and if I was feeling lenient i would let her rewrite it and average the grades. In other words, even if she got 100 on the rewrite it would go in the grade book as a 50.

[ktgrok]

Completely straight faced I'd say, "It was kind of you to submit this for the real author at *name of website* but can you get me his/her address so I can send their grade on to them? And you know your paper is late, right? You have until tomorrow but I'll have to dock *certain number* of points for tardiness."

 

Any arguments can be waved off. Then deal will plagarism in the next class with some pointed looks at the student.

 

Shame can work wonders. I plagarized a Nat. Geographic article in grade 5 or 6 myself. I didn't realize it was wrong but my teacher handled it in a very similar and rather subtle way ("next time you do this please make sure you don't put your name on it") that embarrassed me completely and made me VERY careful for the rest of my paper writing career. :D

 

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

 

That is awesome!!! That is how my Dad handled discipline we me on occasion and it always worked. I remember skipping school and later that night my dad mentioned casually that he saw a car that looked just like my best friends car at the gas station in the middle of the school day. That the kids in the car looked just like me and my friend, but he knew that couldn't be the case as it was during the school day. And that it was a REALLY good thing it wasn't and that he was sure he'd never see anything like that again.

 

I never skipped school again.

[angela in ohio]

Second of all, er, maybe this girl is the product of a "classical education" in which she had only gotten so far with her mom. If she has been doing IEW (I know) or Classical Writing (it seems from what I've read) she's been taught to plagiarize in my tiny little humble opinion. That was one of my problems with IEW, after several years, we weren't really moving past the plagiarize this paragraph but dress it up a bit b/f you turn it in phase....

 

Of course, we don't really know the details. Word for word seems like shameless plagiarizing but maybe she's just really good at remembering the paragraph and when she recreated it from her out line, she got lucky.

Maybe the step b/t reading and rewriting (the key word outline) was just one little step that doesnt' seem that important and why not just copy it? I might even come off the F if she seemed to really believe that she did the right thing a la IEW, et c.

 

Once you get past the first few units of IEW, there is no imitation involved. I know some people never get into the later material and judge the program just from the preliminary exercises (Units I-V,) but a thorough understanding of the program will show you how it is the exact opposite of plagiarism.

 

Mr. Pudewa addresses this in the TWSS. He says that we all learned how to write by looking something up, changing a few words, and turning it in, and that this is wrong, but no one showed us a better way. Instead, in Unit VI, students learn to take a few key words (3-4 maximum) from each idea (often an entire paragraph or several) the writer presents, to do this from multiple sources, and then to fuse those outlines into one original outline of your own and write from that, without looking at the sources. By taking just a few key words from the source, it becomes impossible to copy it word for word as you use multiple sources.

 

Also, students are taught in IEW that even if they CAN remember the original word for word (not likely if you correctly move into longer pieces,) they are not to write it.

 

And she was not given the piece on the site to write from. She was to summarize the book. That is a totally different assignment than re-writing someone else's summary.

Edited October 5, 2010 by angela in ohio

[angela in ohio]

Completely straight faced I'd say, "It was kind of you to submit this for the real author at *name of website* but can you get me his/her address so I can send their grade on to them? And you know your paper is late, right? You have until tomorrow but I'll have to dock *certain number* of points for tardiness."

 

Any arguments can be waved off. Then deal will plagarism in the next class with some pointed looks at the student.

 

Shame can work wonders. I plagarized a Nat. Geographic article in grade 5 or 6 myself. I didn't realize it was wrong but my teacher handled it in a very similar and rather subtle way ("next time you do this please make sure you don't put your name on it") that embarrassed me completely and made me VERY careful for the rest of my paper writing career. :D

 

This is how I would handle it: a touch of humour, but letting them know for sure that I will not accept this behavior.

 

I think the key is to give the student a chance to make it right. This paper needs to be written correctly, so that the student knows she can do it. The student also needs to stay in class and learn that we face those we disappoint and earn their trust back.

 

I honestly don't care how the public schools handle this. I am homeschooling so that my child is not subjected to the way ps handle things. That wouldn't make a difference in my decision.

[AuntieM]

I would put a bit of effort into it a conversation with her and her parents to see if you can get to the heart of the problem. People plagiarize for a few different reasons.

 

1. Did she do it on purpose? Has anyone taught her how to take notes? Some kids plagiarize because they simply do not know how to summarize...take key words and then create sentences of their own. Was she taught how? Does she know how to write?

 

2. Some kids plagiarize because they have a learning disability that they are trying to hide. (Expressive writing disorder is often the culprit here.)

 

3. Still others plagiarize because they're lazy.

 

So I would present the options to child and parent, and go from there. The cure to plagierism is to make sure the child has the needed skills to succeed and then providing character instruction and accountability both at home and in the classroom.

 

The consequence, of course, is an F on this paper.

 

:iagree:This is good advice!

 

I am sorry you have to deal with this, major bummer.

 

I have been giving this a lot of thought as my kids have grown in to the research-and-write years. There is SOOOOO much information out there for them to cull through! It seems like everything that needs to be said has already been said in a thousand ways (and posted on the web). In this cut-and-paste generation, I think it's much more important to teach kids about plagiarism and how to avoid it. I mean truly, step-by-step, how to avoid it and use citations. I don't know that all teachers go that in depth, when I was in high school it seemed easier since we had to copy out notecards and such by hand. By the time our info-age students get to college level classes, if they haven't been taught well about plagiarism, BOOM, their papers get run through plagiarism-detecting software and it's too late to teach that lesson without major consequences. As a parent educator, I feel I've had to go the extra mile in teaching this area.

 

Of course, blatant copying, as your student has done, is simply wrong. That's not really what I am referring to. But if your class hasn't had the topic thoroughly addressed, it's time for a lesson for everyone.

[justamouse]

it is an EPIDEMIC how kids plagiarize these days, and how many adults have NO idea what constitutes plagiarism.

[LibraryLover]

Frontal lobe alert. Not to be ageist or dismissive, but ah. The folly of youth.

 

F. Redo. I wouldn't kick out as I think the student might benefit from doing such work.

[angela in ohio]

Frontal lobe alert. Not to be ageist or dismissive, but ah. The folly of youth.

 

F. Redo. I wouldn't kick out as I think the student might benefit from doing such work.

 

Yep.

[WishboneDawn]

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

 

That is awesome!!! That is how my Dad handled discipline we me on occasion and it always worked. I remember skipping school and later that night my dad mentioned casually that he saw a car that looked just like my best friends car at the gas station in the middle of the school day. That the kids in the car looked just like me and my friend, but he knew that couldn't be the case as it was during the school day. And that it was a REALLY good thing it wasn't and that he was sure he'd never see anything like that again.

 

I never skipped school again.

 

I like that. It's the sort of discipline that puts the ball firmly in the offenders court. It lets them know they've done wrong but also makes them completely responsible for fixing it.

[radiobrain]

How about, great big F.... talk with parents, and as a "reward" for trying to get out of writing, she has to do double the work on the next paper? Or two extra ones, one to cover the one she skipped, one to make her see that her actions did not result in not doing the work.

 

I think it is very important to talk to the parents. They might be doing a bad job teaching writing and need to know it. She also might not be telling her parents what is expected in the class.

 

Whatever you choose to do, I know it will be well considered and thoughtful.

[LizzyBee]

Second of all, er, maybe this girl is the product of a "classical education" in which she had only gotten so far with her mom. If she has been doing IEW (I know) or Classical Writing (it seems from what I've read) she's been taught to plagiarize in my tiny little humble opinion. That was one of my problems with IEW, after several years, we weren't really moving past the plagiarize this paragraph but dress it up a bit b/f you turn it in phase.

 

 

 

This is a mischaracterization of IEW and CW. They teach the writing of reports the exact same way my school did - make a key word outline, rewrite in your own words, cite your sources. And I can assure you my school took plagiarism very seriously.

[Ferdie]

Since she hasn't received decent writing instruction at home and you are her teacher, I would:

 

1. Assign her a special project on plagerism, (define it, research the consequence if you do this in college by having her look it up on three different college websites, and have her write a few paragraphs about Stephen Ambrose).

 

2. I would require her future papers to be turned in in stages: ask to see her planning document or outline first, then draft, and lastly final copy. She might just be overwhelmed and this would help break it out for her.

 

3. Give her an F on the paper she turned in and make sure her parents knew why.

Edited October 5, 2010 by Ferdie

[Harriet Vane]

Me too! Then you could help me dye my hair!! :D

 

Tara

 

Sounds fun! :cheers2:

[Sherry in OH]

I would give the co-op student a failing grade on the paper. I would have a private discussion with the student and her parents regarding the seriousness of the issue. If you did not discuss plagiarism with your students prior to this incident, discuss it now. If plagiarism was not discussed, I would allow the student to submit a revised paper. Average the two grades. If you did discuss plagiarism, do not allow a rewrite. I do not think a first offense warrants expulsion.

 

I would also discuss the incident with your co-op leaders. The co-op should have a written policy regarding plagiarism and consequences.

 

In college every professor includes a statement about plagiarism and consequences in the course syllabus. Each professor discusses plagiarism and consequences as part of the introductory lecture. Often the students are required to sign statements that they are aware of the college's policy regarding plagiarism. Why? Because students wittingly or unwittingly do plagiarize. The professor can give a failing grade on the paper/test and possibly give a failing grade in the course. He or she may forward information about plagiarism to an academic council (pending expulsion). In many cases, the student will appeal the failing grade. If the professor can document that the student was indeed informed of the consequences, the failing grade stands. Otherwise, the professor may be required to give the student another chance.

[OH_Homeschooler]

Time to have a class lesson on plagiarism and ethics.

 

(I am glad that it's a she and not a he! ykwim?)

 

No, IDKWYM. Someone else asked about this comment and I'm still waiting for an answer...this makes no sense to me.

 

Anyway, I am a fan of giving kids the benefit of the doubt. If this is the first offense there is a very good chance she really had no idea it was plagiarism.

 

I've taught upper level kids (college), DH teaches college courses now, and there are a lot of students who just have no clue what constitutes plagiarism. Should they by that point? Of course. But we both found great results from simply calling kids on it. When this happened the first time for a student, we have shared that we found the original source and asked if they knew they were plagiarizing. They usually had the decency to say they did not know. They were offered the chance to rewrite the paper with proper citation. This shows them how they can still USE a source, just that they need to learn the difference between referencing and stealing. A good exercise if you ask me, a possible source for them in the future.

 

What happens the second time they plagiarize? We don't know, it's never happened (in classes with multiple paper assignments, of course we cannot speak for other classes they took). They seem to learn the lesson. Most kids want to do a good job and want to please their instructors. Or failing that, they want to outsmart them. Simply letting them know you caught them and will not tolerate plagiarism is usually enough. Kids hate to redo things, so having them resubmit the paper is usually enough to teach them the lesson you want them to learn, which is that plagiarism is wrong.

[unsinkable]

I like that. It's the sort of discipline that puts the ball firmly in the offenders court. It lets them know they've done wrong but also makes them completely responsible for fixing it.

 

Are we reading the same post? :confused:

 

It sounds like her dad was giving her a pass on skipping school but he didn't want to come right out and say he was doing it...

[unsinkable]

No, IDKWYM. Someone else asked about this comment and I'm still waiting for an answer...this makes no sense to me.

 

Anyway, I am a fan of giving kids the benefit of the doubt. If this is the first offense there is a very good chance she really had no idea it was plagiarism.

 

I've taught upper level kids (college), DH teaches college courses now, and there are a lot of students who just have no clue what constitutes plagiarism. Should they by that point? Of course. But we both found great results from simply calling kids on it. When this happened the first time for a student, we have shared that we found the original source and asked if they knew they were plagiarizing. They usually had the decency to say they did not know. They were offered the chance to rewrite the paper with proper citation. This shows them how they can still USE a source, just that they need to learn the difference between referencing and stealing. A good exercise if you ask me, a possible source for them in the future.

 

What happens the second time they plagiarize? We don't know, it's never happened (in classes with multiple paper assignments, of course we cannot speak for other classes they took). They seem to learn the lesson. Most kids want to do a good job and want to please their instructors. Or failing that, they want to outsmart them. Simply letting them know you caught them and will not tolerate plagiarism is usually enough. Kids hate to redo things, so having them resubmit the paper is usually enough to teach them the lesson you want them to learn, which is that plagiarism is wrong.

 

This sounds so reasonable.

 

Now, certainly if the OP had made sure the class understood what the definiton of plagarism is and the consequences for doing it and the girl still did it, that would be different.

 

I think there is just way too much assumption on this thread about what this girl knew and what she should have known and why she did what she did.

 

I have seen more honor code-type violations committed out of misunderstanding, desperation and fear than I have out of laziness.

[NanceXToo]

I didn't read all of the replies, but I would attach a printout of the summary you found online, and then I would attach it to the front of her report, and I'd put a note on it saying:

 

"Copying someone else's writing word for word is called plagiarism, and it is both illegal and immoral.

 

Please rewrite this in your own words and hand it in to me by (such and such a date)."

[Pamela H in Texas]

Are we reading the same post?

 

It sounds like her dad was giving her a pass on skipping school but he didn't want to come right out and say he was doing it...

 

That isn't what I read at all. What *I* read was that dad did not overreact, but instead made his point. So many people think they need to parent with a jackhammer. This parent knew that a quick tweak with a screwdriver was enough. And it worked :)

[thescrappyhomeschooler]

I'm sorry, but unless the assignment was "Copy and paste something from the internet and turn it in as your own work." then at her age, she knew what she was doing was wrong. She may not know exactly what plagiarism is, but it appears she didn't even make any attempts to change anything.

[Joy at Home]

I vote F and expel. There is intentional and unintentional plagiarism, and both are unacceptable. But had it been unintentional (failure to cite, etc), a lesson on plagiarism would seem appropriate. But blatant copying of someone else's work needs to be dealt with harshly. Better she learn that lesson now than in college, where getting booted would be a given.

 

Also, to the mom who commented about IEW, have you been through the entire course? It is inaccurate to say the least that it teaches plagiarism.

 

I will let Andrew Pudewa speak for himself on this issue:

 

http://www.excellenceinwriting.com/files/Plagiarism.pdf

[Miss Sherry]

Are we reading the same post? :confused:

 

It sounds like her dad was giving her a pass on skipping school but he didn't want to come right out and say he was doing it...

No, it sounds like this was a Dad that "knew" his own daughter and how she would respond to just "knowing" that he knew what she had done. Did you notice that she said she never did it again after her Dad let her know he knew ?There are some kids that you do not need to come down on hard. They are just very sensitive and respond to gentle reminders. But of course there are others that need a lot more firm discipline and will push the boundaries to the limit. A wise parent gets to know their children and will not crush the sensitive child with extreme harsh discipline but also will not spoil the pushy stubborn child with permissiveness.

[unsinkable]

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

 

That is awesome!!! That is how my Dad handled discipline we me on occasion and it always worked. I remember skipping school and later that night my dad mentioned casually that he saw a car that looked just like my best friends car at the gas station in the middle of the school day. That the kids in the car looked just like me and my friend, but he knew that couldn't be the case as it was during the school day. And that it was a REALLY good thing it wasn't and that he was sure he'd never see anything like that again.

 

I never skipped school again.

 

I like that. It's the sort of discipline that puts the ball firmly in the offenders court. It lets them know they've done wrong but also makes them completely responsible for fixing it.

 

That isn't what I read at all. What *I* read was that dad did not overreact, but instead made his point. So many people think they need to parent with a jackhammer. This parent knew that a quick tweak with a screwdriver was enough. And it worked :)

 

Pamela,

 

It's ironic that you wrote sometimes a quick tweak w/a screwdriver is enough when so many posts in this thread want to bring a sledgehammer down on this girl's head with so little information...

 

But anyway...the dad in the skipping school question didn't not overreact, IMO. He barely reacted. He was playing a game, IMO, with himself and his child.

 

Obviously the child was fine with it and she said it worked with but I certainly don't call it discipline. What would have happened if the girls in that car continued on their merry way and had an accident and someone got hurt or killed. What about the other girls? Was it his right to allow them to have a pass, too, when they weren't even his children?

 

I don't know the man's motivation but I don't agree with his actions at all.

[unsinkable]

No, it sounds like this was a Dad that "knew" his own daughter and how she would respond to just "knowing" that he knew what she had done. Did you notice that she said she never did it again after her Dad let her know he knew ?There are some kids that you do not need to come down on hard. They are just very sensitive and respond to gentle reminders. But of course there are others that need a lot more firm discipline and will push the boundaries to the limit. A wise parent gets to know their children and will not crush the sensitive child with extreme harsh discipline but also will not spoil the pushy stubborn child with permissiveness.

 

Why didn't he tell the truth then and be just as gentle.

 

Go up to his dd and take her to school or home? No yelling, no recrimination...just acknowledge he knew she made a bad choice and tell her it could not happen again.

 

The fact that you had to use air quotes around knowing and knew just proves that is was not a gentle reminder.

 

Yeah, I did notice.

Edited October 5, 2010 by unsinkable

[Miss Sherry]

Pamela,

 

It's ironic that you wrote sometimes a quick tweak w/a screwdriver is enough when so many posts in this thread want to bring a sledgehammer down on this girl's head with so little information...

 

But anyway...the dad in the skipping school question didn't not overreact, IMO. He barely reacted. He was playing a game, IMO, with himself and his child.

 

Obviously the child was fine with it and she said it worked with but I certainly don't call it discipline. What would have happened if the girls in that car continued on their merry way and had an accident and someone got hurt or killed. What about the other girls? Was it his right to allow them to have a pass, too, when they weren't even his children?

 

I don't know the man's motivation but I don't agree with his actions at all.

How old were these kids ? Was that mentioned ? If they were 17 or 18 and he believed the driver was a responsible driver than the issue in his mind was only about not being in class that day, not reckless driving. If they were too young to be in a car together ( in some states there are limitations on who can be in a car with a teen driver ) than that should have been addressed. But if them being in the car together at any other time was not a reason to be alarmed that may have been why he wasn't alarmed about it that time either.

If it were my daughter, I would have handled it differently. However, I think that man knew his own daughter better than I could and knew what would work with her.

You would think that other parents would want to know what their kids are doing from other parents. But I can tell you from experience that is NOT always the case. If he had some of the experiences I have had in passing on information to other parents he may have gotten to the point by the time his daughter was H.S. to stop doing that.

There are some parents I will talk to, and some I won't. It depends on (due to past experience ) how respectful of a person I think they are, what kind of rapport I have and what the issue is.

Of course, it if is a very serious issue I will talk to a parent regardless.

 

 

edited to add:

I don't think a parent can be judged on just one incident like this. He may have been a lot firmer in other areas but knew he didn't need to be as firm in this particular incident. This comes from KNOWING your own children.

Edited October 5, 2010 by Miss Sherry

[BarbecueMom]

I'm not even close to teaching writing yet (other than "don't scribble on the wall"), but plagiarism, and frankly any cheating in general, is bigger than just the ethical problem. Kids cheat when they struggle to manage their time, or when they struggle with perfectionism, or when they don't have a grasp on the subject matter (or proper citation), or when they live in fear of the consequences of a poor grade.

 

I think the temptation to cheat is strongest when the student is not academically prepared for the assignment and doesn't know who or how to ask for help. I don't think it's a coincidence that colleges are reporting more plagiarism along with a growing number of ill-prepared students.

 

I'd refuse the paper, and have a long talk with the student and the parents. Throwing the kid out of the class isn't going to address the deeper issues, as some of those issues may lie with what the parents are (or aren't) teaching.

[Pamela H in Texas]

I certainly don't call it discipline.

 

He corrected her similar to when you remind a child to put their napkin in their lap. If the majority of his discipline (teaching/guiding) was mild, then the child wasn't desensitized to that sort of discipline. Sure, you can yell and ground a child for two weeks for skipping school or forgetting his napkin. MANY parents do that sort of discipline. I see it almost daily on this board and in real life. I personally don't get it. There is so little, in terms of harsh consequences, for law abiding citizens (which is who I assume we're aiming to raise), that I chose not to parent my kids by making everything a federal case. And I had a tough kiddo that needed me to do better than overreact and punish harshly for everything (I've seen that backfire so much I was determined not to go that route with my truly challenging kiddo). Though honestly, I most certainly would have been MUCH more direct and clear regarding skipping. "I saw you and your friend at Exxon earlier during school hours. That is not to happen again. During school hours, you will be in school, young lady." On a first offense, there is little reason to do more than that, imo. My tweak would just have been a bit firmer than his was.

 

To me, this thread is just more of the same overreacting with "expel her." High schoolers gets expelled for plagiarism. They lose points (even getting zeros). They get to sit in detention to do work. They get to test in in-school suspension. But they still go to school to get an education. There are consequences, but the jackhammer is reserved for adults who truly know better and why and still choose to try to get away with such things. However, regardless of the reasonable teenage consequences, I still think the discipline (teaching/guidance) is important for this girl and the class.

[Miss Sherry]

He corrected her similar to when you remind a child to put their napkin in their lap. If the majority of his discipline (teaching/guiding) was mild, then the child wasn't desensitized to that sort of discipline. Sure, you can yell and ground a child for two weeks for skipping school or forgetting his napkin. MANY parents do that sort of discipline. I see it almost daily on this board and in real life. I personally don't get it. There is so little, in terms of harsh consequences, for law abiding citizens (which is who I assume we're aiming to raise), that I chose not to parent my kids by making everything a federal case. And I had a tough kiddo that needed me to do better than overreact and punish harshly for everything (I've seen that backfire so much I was determined not to go that route with my truly challenging kiddo). Though honestly, I most certainly would have been MUCH more direct and clear regarding skipping. "I saw you and your friend at Exxon earlier during school hours. That is not to happen again. During school hours, you will be in school, young lady." On a first offense, there is little reason to do more than that, imo. My tweak would just have been a bit firmer than his was.

 

To me, this thread is just more of the same overreacting with "expel her." High schoolers gets expelled for plagiarism. They lose points (even getting zeros). They get to sit in detention to do work. They get to test in in-school suspension. But they still go to school to get an education. There are consequences, but the jackhammer is reserved for adults who truly know better and why and still choose to try to get away with such things. However, regardless of the reasonable teenage consequences, I still think the discipline (teaching/guidance) is important for this girl and the class.

I agree that there is too much overreacting here regarding this incident. We're not talking about a hardened criminal here, this is a high school girl.

Yes, we KNOW that plagiarism is not allowed in college. By the time she is college age she WILL be a little or a lot more mature and will be told not to plagiarize. High school students really are younger and less mature than college students.

[Haiku]

High school students really are younger and less mature than college students.

 

Yes, they are, but my eight year old knows better than to try to pass someone else's work off as her own.

 

Tara

[Miss Sherry]

Why didn't he tell the truth then and be just as gentle.

 

Go up to his dd and take her to school or home? No yelling, no recrimination...just acknowledge he knew she made a bad choice and tell her it could not happen again.

 

The fact that you had to use air quotes around knowing and knew just proves that is was not a gentle reminder.

 

Yeah, I did notice.

In his own way he DID let her know he knew what she had done and that he expected it not to happen again.That was communicated, just not with the same wording you think it had to be done with. What we don't know is what would have happened if she had done it again. Perhaps his daughter had a good idea, based on her history with him, and it didn't have to be said for this particular incident. We don't know enough about the rest of their parent/child history to fully understand the interaction.

I know I didn't need a lot of talking from my Dad. Just the fact that I KNEW he disapproved of something kept me out of a lot of trouble.

But honestly, you don't really expect me to answer all of your questions, right ?

I can't get into his head anymore than you can. I think I've already said as much or more than I should on this.

[Miss Sherry]

Yes, they are, but my eight year old knows better than to try to pass someone else's work off as her own.

 

Tara

I didn't say she is incapable of knowing its wrong. I simply think when kids this age do do something wrong we CAN over react and treat them as if we think they are full blown criminals. They often do respond well to respectful and understanding communication. I think expelling from the class is too harsh but getting an F on the paper is deserved. A lot of teenagers would be so humiliated by being confronted about this that they would never do it again. You can go overboard and crush them, rather than help them. It's pointless and mean to crush them, I believe.

[angela in ohio]

No, it sounds like this was a Dad that "knew" his own daughter and how she would respond to just "knowing" that he knew what she had done. Did you notice that she said she never did it again after her Dad let her know he knew ?There are some kids that you do not need to come down on hard. They are just very sensitive and respond to gentle reminders. But of course there are others that need a lot more firm discipline and will push the boundaries to the limit. A wise parent gets to know their children and will not crush the sensitive child with extreme harsh discipline but also will not spoil the pushy stubborn child with permissiveness.

 

:iagree:

 

And in this case, it is not the op's child. I have found that with adolescents who aren't my own, it is best to start with the sly comment and then only bring out the sledge hammer when needed. Maybe only 1 in 10 need the sledge hammer. This builds great relationships, which make teaching easier.

[Miss Sherry]

..... Perhaps make a comment about the money she or her parents are wasting on this education.

.......

 

 

Tara

I strongly disagree with this "Perhaps make a comment about the money she or her parents are wasting on this education ." What this student did does not give the teacher a right to be mean and demeaning. You do not "help" a student by showing them you do not value them. Perhaps your comment has nothing to do with helping the student but is just about excusing meanness towards students. It's none of the teacher's business how much money her parents are spending on her education.

[kalphs]

I'd call a meeting with the girl and her parents.

 

Present them with the evidence and let her know how disappointed you are.

 

After that I'd leave it in the parent's hands as to how to deal with it.

 

It's up to you whether you give her a second chance in your class.....I wouldn't, but that's me :001_smile: .

:iagree:

[Miss Sherry]

:iagree:

 

And in this case, it is not the op's child. I have found that with adolescents who aren't my own, it is best to start with the sly comment and then only bring out the sledge hammer when needed. Maybe only 1 in 10 need the sledge hammer. This builds great relationships, which make teaching easier.

yes, I agree. You will get farther with a student you have built a relationship with than one you have crushed with extreme "discipline".

[Tidbits of Learning]

Maybe I am the odd one out, but co-ops here about cooperatively educating each other's children and offering our services in areas of strength in order to better prepare the children for future academia. Our co-op has a scale with 1-5 and has different criteria such as completes work on time, does work up to standards...general prepared for class and doing what is expected of them list. At the beginning of the year, the high schoolers and their parents are told that they will get progress reports at the end of each semester for their child's classes. The director specifically goes over this scale and then says how we are working together to give the children something that we couldn't give them by ourselves and that it is up to the parent to give a grade based on this scale or just to give a pat on the back or a let's work on this type thing.

The whole give an F and expel is just so not what I would expect on this board. After asking about grades and levels several times on here and getting don't worry about grades worry about a good firm understanding...I am surprised at how many want to just give an F and banish this child from class.

If this was the op's child, would the advice be the same? Give her an F and expel her from the house?

There is no excuse for cheating, but there are alternatives to being harsh and judgemental.

 

ETA-I am still curious how you stumbled upon the exact site she copied from...was there some tattling done on this child? Do you feel like she tried to pull the wool over your eyes and bragged about it? I am just really curious how you found the exact site out of the whole internet. It seems highly unlikely and surely she wouldn't have cited it as a source if she copied word for word. If you are truly worried about her lack of writing instruction up to this point, then this incident is a great stepping block to actually helping her learn how to write and not learn how to fail.

Edited October 5, 2010 by OpenMinded

[Haiku]

It's none of the teacher's business how much money her parents are spending on her education.

 

If I teach a class it's absolutely my business how much the family spends on that class, and I see nothing inappropriate about reminding a child that they or (most probably) their parents are spending good money for a class that said student is evidently not taking seriously at all.

 

Tara

[Joy at Home]

Maybe I am the odd one out, but co-ops here about cooperatively educating each other's children and offering our services in areas of strength in order to better prepare the children for future academia. Our co-op has a scale with 1-5 and has different criteria such as completes work on time, does work up to standards...general prepared for class and doing what is expected of them list. At the beginning of the year, the high schoolers and their parents are told that they will get progress reports at the end of each semester for their child's classes. The director specifically goes over this scale and then says how we are working together to give the children something that we couldn't give them by ourselves and that it is up to the parent to give a grade based on this scale or just to give a pat on the back or a let's work on this type thing.

The whole give an F and expel is just so not what I would expect on this board. After asking about grades and levels several times on here and getting don't worry about grades worry about a good firm understanding...I am surprised at how many want to just give an F and banish this child from class.

If this was the op's child, would the advice be the same? Give her an F and expel her from the house?

There is no excuse for cheating, but there are alternatives to being harsh and judgemental.

 

ETA-I am still curious how you stumbled upon the exact site she copied from...was there some tattling done on this child? Do you feel like she tried to pull the wool over your eyes and bragged about it? I am just really curious how you found the exact site out of the whole internet. It seems highly unlikely and surely she wouldn't have cited it as a source if she copied word for word. If you are truly worried about her lack of writing instruction up to this point, then this incident is a great stepping block to actually helping her learn how to write and not learn how to fail.

 

I see your point, but I don't agree it is harsh and judgmental to expel her from the class. It's a natural consequence for a very serious offense; that is, taking, verbatim, someone else's work and passing it off as your own. Yes, we should teach, mentor, shape, and show much grace toward our children/students. But sometime the best teachable moment needs to be a jolt of reality, and plagiarism is not tolerated to any degree in higher academia.

[mykdsmomy]

I'll throw my 2cents in here. I too believe expulsion is a bit extreme for this circumstance.

I like the idea of bringing up the word plagiarism in class and having a discussion. After class ask the offender to stay. Confront her on what she's done, and give her a chance to tell you why she did it. Use this as a teaching moment rather than a punitive moment. What is the goal here? It seems like it would be easier to expel her and not have to deal with it anymore but would that be the right thing? What would have a longer lasting impact on this child overall? I believe she would learn a more valuable lesson if she was given another chance. I also think a nice long essay on plagiarism is in order ;)

 

Maybe she truly does have a problem with writing her own ideas. Maybe she needs more tools or help? Is she overwhelmed?

 

Just my thoughts :)

[Danestress]

I would be happy to have a tennis coach tell my child that we are spending a lot on lessons so he needs to work hard in them. Same with violin teacher or Latin Co-op teacher. I can't think of why it would bother me to have a teacher say that to my child.

 

I also don't think it is mean to call cheating "cheating" or to hold a child to a basic academic standard. I would address it privately with the child and parents and would not want to rub it in or publicly humiliate the child. But I would not feel at all compelled to try to find a nice way to address it. It's cheating. It is wrong. I would call it cheating and I would call it wrong and I would tell the child that I am a bit angry about being put in a position of having to deal with something like this.

 

I don't see it as my job to "help" the child with this. I would be glad to help her understand what the boundaries are, but copying word for word was just flat cheating, and she would have known that as any teen would. I would just call it cheating, impose whatever penalty seemed appropriate, and make sure the parents understood what happened. They would be there to see that website so that the child could not lie to them about what happened.

 

And if I were the parent, I would be happy my child got caught. Better now than later.

[Miss Sherry]

If I teach a class it's absolutely my business how much the family spends on that class, and I see nothing inappropriate about reminding a child that they or (most probably) their parents are spending good money for a class that said student is evidently not taking seriously at all.

 

Tara

Now you've changed the context of the comment. When you said "Perhaps make a comment about the money she or her parents are wasting on this education." it was about disciplining the girl for plagiarism, which would have been a demeaning comment to make to a teenager, under those circumstances. I also disagree that the amount of money other parents spend on their children is your business. Quite frankly, it's never your business. You may make it your business, but that is sticking your nose in where it does not belong. I think the comment was being used in a way to demean a teenage girl and that is NEVER your right to do.

[DarlaS]

ETA-I am still curious how you stumbled upon the exact site she copied from...was there some tattling done on this child? Do you feel like she tried to pull the wool over your eyes and bragged about it? I am just really curious how you found the exact site out of the whole internet. It seems highly unlikely and surely she wouldn't have cited it as a source if she copied word for word. If you are truly worried about her lack of writing instruction up to this point, then this incident is a great stepping block to actually helping her learn how to write and not learn how to fail.

 

 

It was a synopsis of the book from the website. Chances are good the OP was going to recognize it.

 

Also, I think you can search on an entire sentence, phrase etc. and find an article quite easily. If one of my kids turned in something that read like it came from a seasoned writer, you can bet I'd be doing the same (and they are pretty good writers).

 

I think many here are putting themselves into the OPs shoes and feeling insulted for her. I sure would be if some teenager pulled this on me. Maybe this girl thinks just another home school mom teaching a co-op class is not as savvy as a high school teacher/college professor and therefore she can snow her more easily. Maybe she's gotten away with it before. In any case, she's fifteen and unless she's mentally challenged she KNOWS it's wrong.

[LittleHouseHomeschool]

I have seen more honor code-type violations committed out of misunderstanding, desperation and fear than I have out of laziness.

 

I can't agree more with this statement. Usually, it has to do with not knowing what to do, or how to restate the information in their own words. I've even had a student say, "But they say EXACTLY what I want to say...only better. So why do I have to write something that sounds worse than that?" LOL

 

Poor kids...they usually just need help. Fear is the biggest factor. I've honestly never met a kid who has plagiarized out of laziness.

 

No matter what reason though, it's wrong. But as a teacher, I feel a responsibility to help students rather than shame them. Shame may work short term, but it is usually accompanied by emotional damage. And I'm not into damaging people. I'd rather build a positive future for everyone.

[Haiku]

Now you've changed the context of the comment. When you said "Perhaps make a comment about the money she or her parents are wasting on this education."

 

I don't see how I have. Part of my disciplining the student for plagiarism would include (perhaps, as I stated) making a comment about the fact that her parents are wasting money on the class I teach if she chooses to plagiarize instead of do the work. Sorry, I don't see it as demeaning or none of my business. Perhaps I didn't phrase it well to begin with, but I think you are the one taking the comment out of context. If I am providing an education (class) to a child and the parents are paying for it and the child is blowing off the work, I think it's fine (and a good thing) to call the child on it. If I said, "Wow, I bet your parents are SOOOOOO happy to waste their money on a lazy a$$ like you," yeah, that would be demeaning. If I said, "You know, little SuzyJane, your parents paying me to teach you writing, and when you choose not to do the work and just print something off the internet, they are not getting their money's worth," well, that's not demeaning.

 

Tara

[bettyandbob]

ETA-I am still curious how you stumbled upon the exact site she copied from...was there some tattling done on this child? Do you feel like she tried to pull the wool over your eyes and bragged about it? I am just really curious how you found the exact site out of the whole internet.

 

I don't know how the OP did it, but I've done it simply by putting a full paragraph of text into google. I've done this and found whole papers word for word. Some kids block and paste without taking out the original authors footnote notations. So, in the middle of a paragraph there will be numbered superscripts, but no foot notes. At that point it's really obvious the text was copied. Some students don't even try hard to cheat.

 

Other times, when I've done the google thing, I've found the source for some of their material, so that's when I might give a second chance--allowing the student to rewrite with proper citation. Those students typically come up with cites for the materials I've found and cites for other things in their papers and they learn what they did wrong. But those were the students who were trying to do the research in the first place. They weren't trying to get out of an assignment by lifting the entire text.

[Miss Sherry]

I don't see how I have. Part of my disciplining the student for plagiarism would include (perhaps, as I stated) making a comment about the fact that her parents are wasting money on the class I teach if she chooses to plagiarize instead of do the work. Sorry, I don't see it as demeaning or none of my business. Perhaps I didn't phrase it well to begin with, but I think you are the one taking the comment out of context. If I am providing an education (class) to a child and the parents are paying for it and the child is blowing off the work, I think it's fine (and a good thing) to call the child on it. If I said, "Wow, I bet your parents are SOOOOOO happy to waste their money on a lazy a$$ like you," yeah, that would be demeaning. If I said, "You know, little SuzyJane, your parents paying me to teach you writing, and when you choose not to do the work and just print something off the internet, they are not getting their money's worth," well, that's not demeaning.

 

Tara

Here's what you originally said.

"Print off the original from online, staple it to her paper, and give it back to her. Give her a big fat zero. Do not allow her to redo it. Tell her that cheaters fail your class. Perhaps make a comment about the money she or her parents are wasting on this education."

 

In the context of giving a high schooler a Zero - and FAILING her from the class and then to add a comment that" perhaps your parents are wasting money on this education" comes across as a demeaning comment when directed AT a teenager.Your also going to engage in name calling of the student ? Goodness "Tell her that cheaters fail your class". Now you've really got her attention and no doubt she will be open to learning a lot from you. Do you honestly think a teenager is going to take this type of sarcasm as helpful rather than nasty ? Helpful is saying what can I do to help you improve your writing skills or giving a suggestion of a resource for help. Sarcasm is " your parents are wasting money on you" or it's close cousin as you said it " perhaps your parents are wasting money on this education". Do I really need to tell you that calling a student a cheater, if you really want to help her, is NOT going to make her think you want to be helpful ? You can't convince me any of those are kind comments.

You didn't say, as you are now say, "your parents paying me to teach you writing, and when you choose not to do the work and just print something off the internet, they are not getting their money's worth," What you were advocating was in the context of giving a zero and EXPELLING(FAILING would have the same effect) the student (good grief) to include the comment, " perhaps your parents are wasting money on this education". You may as well just slap the teenager across the face and say "You are a waste of money " because you would be handing that comment to them on a paper with a big fat Zero on it,which would put them in an emotional state of humiliation,and then FAIL them out of the class on top of that (real kind and helpful ) and they would know you were mad but it sounds like you would say "I was not mad, I was being 'helpful' but they wouldn't buy it and I don't either.

 

Giving the student an F AND FAILING them from the class is about punishing them. It's in no way about wanting to help. If you really wanted to help you would have suggested something along the lines of help , as I mentioned above, such as SAYING how can I help or offering a suggestion of a resource.

When you deal with teenagers in a harsh way you can tell them until you are blue in the face you are really being "helpful" but they KNOW when you are really being sarcastic and judgmental. Just changing the "title" of what you are doing does not change the spirit of it.

Edited October 5, 2010 by Miss Sherry