Thoroughly disgusted. WWYD?

[mcconnellboys]

I have to add that I've always had a problem with writing programs such as this which really do send kids down the wrong path, in my opinion....

[Caitilin]

Knowing that something is "wrong," and understanding just how "wrong" adults consider it to be, are two different things. Lying is wrong, but most people would see a difference between telling a white lie to spare someone's feelings and lying under oath. A teen may know that "copying something off the internet" is not right, but she may think it's more akin to telling a little white lie than lying under oath. She may not at all be equating it with a criminal act, and she may have no idea that an adult would see it as "lying, cheating, and stealing." I think this is at least partly to blame here. Her home is not an academically oriented one, so this is probably not an issue that has explicitly been covered before in her studies. However...

 

Maybe this kid has a heavy course load, a ton of extra-curriculars, poor time management skills, and no writing background. Maybe she was sitting at the computer the night before the paper was due, freaking out because she had no idea how to write the assignment, beating herself up over mismanaging the time, and her mother was yelling at her to get to bed, so she panicked and copied something off the internet. Expulsion from the class may "teach her a lesson," but it doesn't teach her any of the specific lessons she needs to learn to avoid the issues that got her there in the first place.

 

I'd give her an F for the assignment, make her redo it (including helping her if she needs help) and have a discussion with the entire class about the seriousness of plagiarism. She made a stupid mistake, but I think she should have a second chance to make it right. A second offense, OTOH, I would consider grounds for expulsion.

 

Jackie

Here's what I ended up doing:

 

1. I spoke to the co-op coordinator, so that she could be kept abreast of the situation.

 

2. I wrote a personal note to the student on the paper, in which I explicitly laid out WHY plagiarism is such a big deal, and clarifying that it is indeed lying, stealing, and cheating.

 

3. I had a conversation with the student, by herself, privately, in which I restated the message in the note on the paper. I told her that this wasn't acceptable, and that she would need to redo the paper, showing me a sample of her own writing.

 

4. I had a conversation with the class at large in which I discussed plagiarism--what it is, why it's wrong, what happens if you do it in a college class. I at no time singled out, or even mentioned the student or the situation at all. I simply said that I had realized that we had not yet had this conversation, and that it was very important that they fully understand what it was, and how to avoid it.

 

5. I had a conversation with the student's mother, in which I laid out clearly what the student had done, and what I had done about it so far. She appreciated my coming to her; she told me that this is not the first time that the student had done something like this--she had been caught and reprimanded for the previous offense (which occurred in a totally different setting). She asked me to keep in contact with her to keep her abreast of the assignments so that she could better monitor the student's work ethic and progress. I also said that I was willing to give the student more assistance on the assignments, but that if she couldn't keep up, her parents might wish to reconsider the class for her. She said that she and her dh would themselves have a conversation privately with the student to determine what further consequences were appropriate in the family context.

 

I did what I thought best in the circumstances. :D

[nd293]

Edited to Ammend - Sounds like you did just the right thing, Caitlin!

Edited October 6, 2010 by nd293

[Murphy101]

I don't especially appreciate the implication that I am out to get this student, or that I would take any interest in any tale-bearing that another person might engage in.

 

:iagree:

 

Even if it were true, it doesn't matter how you found out - she DID cheat.

 

Parents who want to blame the teacher and get mad at her when the kid obviously did wrong need to get their priorities straight and aim their ire elsewhere.

Edited October 6, 2010 by Martha

[Caitilin]

:iagree:

 

Even if it were true, it doesn't matter how you found out - she DID cheat.

 

Parents who want to blame the teacher and get mad at her when the kid obviously did wrong need to get their priorities straight and aim their ire elsewhere.

 

So what did you end up doing, Caitlin?

 

:grouphug:Thanks, Martha. I posted my response downthread just a little.

[Corraleno]

Here's what I ended up doing:

 

1. I spoke to the co-op coordinator, so that she could be kept abreast of the situation.

 

2. I wrote a personal note to the student on the paper, in which I explicitly laid out WHY plagiarism is such a big deal, and clarifying that it is indeed lying, stealing, and cheating.

 

3. I had a conversation with the student, by herself, privately, in which I restated the message in the note on the paper. I told her that this wasn't acceptable, and that she would need to redo the paper, showing me a sample of her own writing.

 

4. I had a conversation with the class at large in which I discussed plagiarism--what it is, why it's wrong, what happens if you do it in a college class. I at no time singled out, or even mentioned the student or the situation at all. I simply said that I had realized that we had not yet had this conversation, and that it was very important that they fully understand what it was, and how to avoid it.

 

5. I had a conversation with the student's mother, in which I laid out clearly what the student had done, and what I had done about it so far. She appreciated my coming to her; she told me that this is not the first time that the student had done something like this--she had been caught and reprimanded for the previous offense (which occurred in a totally different setting). She asked me to keep in contact with her to keep her abreast of the assignments so that she could better monitor the student's work ethic and progress. I also said that I was willing to give the student more assistance on the assignments, but that if she couldn't keep up, her parents might wish to reconsider the class for her. She said that she and her dh would themselves have a conversation privately with the student to determine what further consequences were appropriate in the family context.

 

I did what I thought best in the circumstances. :D

I think you handled it perfectly, and I hope this girl (1) has learned her lesson and (2) appreciates the kindness and understanding you've shown her.

 

Jackie

[Murphy101]

:grouphug:Thanks, Martha. I posted my response downthread just a little.

 

I saw it thanks!

 

We are obviously cross posting.:)

 

Well you were far gentler than I would have been, but I know it is hard to be tough too. Sigh. If these kids had any just how badly we really do want to see them do well and succeed... It is so hard to watch them fail or suffer, even if we know it's for the best.:001_unsure:

 

Did finding out she had done it before make you feel the consequences should have been tougher? Would you have changed your decision if you had known that in advance?

[Caitilin]

I saw it thanks!

 

We are obviously cross posting.:)

 

Well you were far gentler than I would have been, but I know it is hard to be tough too. Sigh. If these kids had any just how badly we really do want to see them do well and succeed... It is so hard to watch them fail or suffer, even if we know it's for the best.:001_unsure:

 

Did finding out she had done it before make you feel the consequences should have been tougher? Would you have changed your decision if you had known that in advance?

 

The italicized raises an interesting question. I don't know if I would have handled it differently had I known that ahead of time. I tend to feel sorry for the student, given that I know she's had mediocre writing instruction (at best), and that her mother has several other younger children she's schooling and expects the student to be more self-motivated and responsible than she seems to be able to be. I don't know. I don't know how much is laziness, and how much is fear. I tend to think it's more A than B, but I don't know for sure, obviously. I guess my main feeling is that mom expects her to be able to learn to write at the HS level without having learned to write well at a lower level, and in a sense is inadvertently setting her up for failure. The flipside is that if I don't teach her, I don't know who will. Mom can't, and doesn't want to send her to PS, so...it's not a great situation.:001_rolleyes:

[Miss Sherry]

Here's what I ended up doing:

 

1. I spoke to the co-op coordinator, so that she could be kept abreast of the situation.

 

2. I wrote a personal note to the student on the paper, in which I explicitly laid out WHY plagiarism is such a big deal, and clarifying that it is indeed lying, stealing, and cheating.

 

3. I had a conversation with the student, by herself, privately, in which I restated the message in the note on the paper. I told her that this wasn't acceptable, and that she would need to redo the paper, showing me a sample of her own writing.

 

4. I had a conversation with the class at large in which I discussed plagiarism--what it is, why it's wrong, what happens if you do it in a college class. I at no time singled out, or even mentioned the student or the situation at all. I simply said that I had realized that we had not yet had this conversation, and that it was very important that they fully understand what it was, and how to avoid it.

 

5. I had a conversation with the student's mother, in which I laid out clearly what the student had done, and what I had done about it so far. She appreciated my coming to her; she told me that this is not the first time that the student had done something like this--she had been caught and reprimanded for the previous offense (which occurred in a totally different setting). She asked me to keep in contact with her to keep her abreast of the assignments so that she could better monitor the student's work ethic and progress. I also said that I was willing to give the student more assistance on the assignments, but that if she couldn't keep up, her parents might wish to reconsider the class for her. She said that she and her dh would themselves have a conversation privately with the student to determine what further consequences were appropriate in the family context.

 

I did what I thought best in the circumstances. :D

Good job Caitilin. I think you handled it well.

[Starr]

She's probably annoyed that she has to write the paper. lol You handled it well given the circumstances.

[Miss Sherry]

She's probably annoyed that she has to write the paper. lol You handled it well given the circumstances.

 

I think she handled it well too.

 

Some teachers wouldn't have given her the opportunity to rewrite it.Is she getting any credit for rewriting it ? Maybe the OP already answered that.

 

 

I think she should be told what will happen in college if she does this. But maybe the OP included that information when she spoke about plagiarism with her.

 

edited to add: Never mind. The OP did tell the students what will happen if they plagiarize in college.

[Gwenhwyfar]

that's what i was saying earlier in the thread somewhere... i'd want to find out WHY this happened before deciding on any course of action.

 

The course of action should apply regardless of reason.

 

There is ZERO excuse for this in any student over the age of 8.

 

I think it sends a terrible message that if you can just come up with a good enough sob story or claim sheer obvious ignorance due to lack of paying any attention whatsoever - well of course those people shouldn't have to suffer the consequences of their lying and cheating.

 

I'd give a zero for the assignment if they are under 12 and have them do the assignment properly without a grade in order to stay in the class.

 

Over age 12, expelled.

 

If they are having problems, then that is for the parents to deal with.

Maybe having more time at home will give them the time to deal with that.

 

If I were the parent, this is what I would expect.

 

And having a teacher practice at being an amateur therapist on my kid would NOT make me happier. By all means if you feel it was because the student was not up to the rigors of the class or appears to be having problems understanding the assignments - let me know. But otherwise, no thank you.

 

we're all different...

 

you don't agree with how i'd handle it and i don't agree with how you'd handle it.. that's ok. :)

 

glad to see that the OP has resolved the situation.

[IsabelC]

I noticed a lot of people suggesting finding out the students intent or understanding of what she did. Unless this student is under 11 years old, or has severe disabilities, I believe it is reasonable to assume that with a word for word copy of a paper, that the student never intended to write the paper herself and fully understands that the copy is not her work. It would be a completely different story if she reworded parts and had reworded sections from different sources--that would suggest she did not know how to properly cite.

See, I look at it the opposite way. If somebody intends to plagiarize, they would change words here and there to disguise it. If they have cut and pasted a whole text with no attempt to hide it, this suggests that they have no idea it's wrong.

[elfgivas]

Sounds like you did just the right thing, Caitlin!

 

:iagree:

[ereks mom]

Here's what I ended up doing:

 

1. I spoke to the co-op coordinator, so that she could be kept abreast of the situation.

 

2. I wrote a personal note to the student on the paper, in which I explicitly laid out WHY plagiarism is such a big deal, and clarifying that it is indeed lying, stealing, and cheating.

 

3. I had a conversation with the student, by herself, privately, in which I restated the message in the note on the paper. I told her that this wasn't acceptable, and that she would need to redo the paper, showing me a sample of her own writing.

 

4. I had a conversation with the class at large in which I discussed plagiarism--what it is, why it's wrong, what happens if you do it in a college class. I at no time singled out, or even mentioned the student or the situation at all. I simply said that I had realized that we had not yet had this conversation, and that it was very important that they fully understand what it was, and how to avoid it.

 

5. I had a conversation with the student's mother, in which I laid out clearly what the student had done, and what I had done about it so far. She appreciated my coming to her; she told me that this is not the first time that the student had done something like this--she had been caught and reprimanded for the previous offense (which occurred in a totally different setting). She asked me to keep in contact with her to keep her abreast of the assignments so that she could better monitor the student's work ethic and progress. I also said that I was willing to give the student more assistance on the assignments, but that if she couldn't keep up, her parents might wish to reconsider the class for her. She said that she and her dh would themselves have a conversation privately with the student to determine what further consequences were appropriate in the family context.

 

I did what I thought best in the circumstances. :D

 

You exhibited a lot of wisdom in this situation.

[Jenny in GA]

See, I look at it the opposite way. If somebody intends to plagiarize, they would change words here and there to disguise it. If they have cut and pasted a whole text with no attempt to hide it, this suggests that they have no idea it's wrong.

 

 

This reminds me of when I was a public school music teacher. I had a seventh grade student who told me happily that she had done a report for another class on a composer we were discussing, and she brought it in the next day for me to see it.

 

It was so obvious that she had not written a word of it. It was a couple pages, typed single space, and not the wording ANY twelve year old girl would use -- certainly not this particular one.

 

There was nothing in her demeanor to indicate that she was embarrassed by it, or that she was hoping to trick me and certainly there was no reason for her to show it to me. I completely got the impression that she really, truly thought this was her report, and was proud of it.

 

Jenny

[Jamee]

You handled it very well and properly. It reminds me of a college situation that wasn't handled well. My SIL was a reader for a class, and I think upper division at that. When she came across a page that was copy/pasted and took it to the dean, they didn't do half as much as you did! Such a shame on all counts.

 

DH had issues with his students plagerizing in their LA class to the point that not only did they just copy/paste, but they kept the hyperlinks in too, in color! When the teacher confronted student and parents, the parents said since it was on their computer, it wasn't plagerized.:banghead: Why on earth are teachers not doing their jobs! I'm sad that the teacher here is now off to a different school, she was fantastic.

[Abigail4476]

Here's what I ended up doing:

 

1. I spoke to the co-op coordinator, so that she could be kept abreast of the situation.

 

2. I wrote a personal note to the student on the paper, in which I explicitly laid out WHY plagiarism is such a big deal, and clarifying that it is indeed lying, stealing, and cheating.

 

3. I had a conversation with the student, by herself, privately, in which I restated the message in the note on the paper. I told her that this wasn't acceptable, and that she would need to redo the paper, showing me a sample of her own writing.

 

4. I had a conversation with the class at large in which I discussed plagiarism--what it is, why it's wrong, what happens if you do it in a college class. I at no time singled out, or even mentioned the student or the situation at all. I simply said that I had realized that we had not yet had this conversation, and that it was very important that they fully understand what it was, and how to avoid it.

 

5. I had a conversation with the student's mother, in which I laid out clearly what the student had done, and what I had done about it so far. She appreciated my coming to her; she told me that this is not the first time that the student had done something like this--she had been caught and reprimanded for the previous offense (which occurred in a totally different setting). She asked me to keep in contact with her to keep her abreast of the assignments so that she could better monitor the student's work ethic and progress. I also said that I was willing to give the student more assistance on the assignments, but that if she couldn't keep up, her parents might wish to reconsider the class for her. She said that she and her dh would themselves have a conversation privately with the student to determine what further consequences were appropriate in the family context.

 

I did what I thought best in the circumstances. :D

 

 

Sounds like you handled it perfectly. :thumbup1: