Thoroughly disgusted. WWYD?

[Tidbits of Learning]

I see your point, but I don't agree it is harsh and judgmental to expel her from the class. It's a natural consequence for a very serious offense; that is, taking, verbatim, someone else's work and passing it off as your own. Yes, we should teach, mentor, shape, and show much grace toward our children/students. But sometime the best teachable moment needs to be a jolt of reality, and plagiarism is not tolerated to any degree in higher academia.

 

Most co-ops are not counted towards credits or grades. They are for our children's mutual benefits and the op would have to take whatever action that the co-op board decides. Honestly, we are in a co-op and if this occured with my child I would expect a graceful handling of the situation instead of a condemning judgmental knee jerk reaction.

Honestly, I don't think that it is something that would be left up to just the teacher. The board would have to discuss it and come up with a policy.

The point is this is preparation for higher academia. It isn't university. The reactions that people are giving are akin to the reactions at university. This is a co-op. It is something people voluntarily join to benefit their children. The powers that be at the co-op and the girl's parents should be the first contacted and it should be handled with diplomacy and grace.

[Tidbits of Learning]

It was a synopsis of the book from the website. Chances are good the OP was going to recognize it.

 

Also, I think you can search on an entire sentence, phrase etc. and find an article quite easily. If one of my kids turned in something that read like it came from a seasoned writer, you can bet I'd be doing the same (and they are pretty good writers).

 

I think many here are putting themselves into the OPs shoes and feeling insulted for her. I sure would be if some teenager pulled this on me. Maybe this girl thinks just another home school mom teaching a co-op class is not as savvy as a high school teacher/college professor and therefore she can snow her more easily. Maybe she's gotten away with it before. In any case, she's fifteen and unless she's mentally challenged she KNOWS it's wrong.

 

There is too much emotion involved in the situation. We as homeschoolers are not trained in how to deal with a situation such as this one. Teachers in a school setting are briefed and given strict guidance on how to react to such an instance.

The reactions of most on here are exactly how I would expect a school to respond. It is not how I would expect a homeschool parent/volunteer of a class to mentor to my child that may need serious guidance in moral and ethical issues as well as needing my awareness raised that skills are lacking and the child may need more help in the area.

[EKS]

I just discovered that a paper written by one of my co-op class students is plagiarized from a synopsis of the book she was assigned to write about. She did not change one word of what was on the website. I am so disappointed and disgusted. What should I do?

 

I would probably give the student the benefit of the doubt and allow a rewrite. I would also make it abundantly clear that if it happens again, she will receive an F (either on the assignment or in the class, whatever you think is best).

 

Sometimes kids cheat because they are in over their heads or have poor time management skills. It's not always about laziness or that they're trying to game the system.

[Tidbits of Learning]

Since it didn't come across in my 2 previous attempts in asking the same question, I will ask more bluntly to the op.

How exactly did you find out that the girl cheated? Were you led to the web site by mere intuition or did another student or parent lead you in that direction? Has this incident been discussed with the co-op powers that be or with other parents besides the girl's parents?

I am curious why everyone is so ready to jump on a bandwagon of expel and not a bandwagon of that child needs guidance and help with more than just writing. As a teacher and a parent, we are mentors to our children and those children that are put in our care and guidance.

[Old Dominion Heather]

I do wonder though how you found the exact web site that she copied from and wonder if there might not have been some talk of her copying and some tattling happening as well. This is just my first thought as there are so many web sites out there that it seems unlikely that it just came to you that she plagiarized.

 

This is actually very, very easy to check. All you have to do is type the sentences in question into Google and it will come right up. It is even easier when they have copied word for word.

 

For example Google these sentences:

 

Grendel terrorizes the Danes every night, killing them and defeating their efforts to fight back. The Danes suffer many years of fear, danger, and death at the hands of Grendel. Eventually, however, a young Geatish warrior named Beowulf hears of Hrothgar’s plight. Inspired by the challenge, Beowulf sails to Denmark with a small company of men, determined to defeat Grendel.

 

And the first site listed is the one from which I lifted the paragraph.

[Tidbits of Learning]

I just discovered that a paper written by one of my co-op class students is plagiarized from a synopsis of the book she was assigned to write about. She did not change one word of what was on the website. I am so disappointed and disgusted. What should I do?

 

I can understand disappointment, but I don't understand the disgusted part. Not one of us are without fault. Are you disgusted by the lack of ethics involved? Then I suggest a serious one on one talk about the ethics of plagairism. If plagairism needs to be more clearly defined, then take the time to enlighten the child. If you are disgusted that the child tried to pull one over on you, then that is really a personal reaction. She would have probably tried this with any teacher especially if she is lacking writing instruction. Do not take it personally. Again, as a teacher and mentor, this is the time for a serious talk about how it isn't just robbing her of the opportunity to grow by truly doing the assignment; but, it is robbing you of an opportunity to truly help her to gain writing skills.

This is my point of view. You can either make this a horrible, demeaning put down of a bad choice or you can let it be the opening to really and truly help a child.

[Tidbits of Learning]

This is actually very, very easy to check. All you have to do is type the sentences in question into Google and it will come right up. It is even easier when they have copied word for word.

 

For example Google these sentences:

 

Grendel terrorizes the Danes every night, killing them and defeating their efforts to fight back. The Danes suffer many years of fear, danger, and death at the hands of Grendel. Eventually, however, a young Geatish warrior named Beowulf hears of Hrothgar’s plight. Inspired by the challenge, Beowulf sails to Denmark with a small company of men, determined to defeat Grendel.

 

And the first site listed is the one from which I lifted the paragraph.

 

You are missing my point. I am asking if there are more people involved in this situation than has been let on. I am bluntly asking if another person (child or adult) led the op in this direction. Is that why there is such emotion and disgust about it?

[Joy at Home]

Most co-ops are not counted towards credits or grades. They are for our children's mutual benefits and the op would have to take whatever action that the co-op board decides. Honestly, we are in a co-op and if this occured with my child I would expect a graceful handling of the situation instead of a condemning judgmental knee jerk reaction.

Honestly, I don't think that it is something that would be left up to just the teacher. The board would have to discuss it and come up with a policy.

The point is this is preparation for higher academia. It isn't university. The reactions that people are giving are akin to the reactions at university. This is a co-op. It is something people voluntarily join to benefit their children. The powers that be at the co-op and the girl's parents should be the first contacted and it should be handled with diplomacy and grace.

 

 

Consequences do not equal condemnation and knee jerk reactions. I don't think emotion enters into it. I do not condemn this child. But I would lean toward dismissing her from the class as this seems in line with the offense. It was blatant cheating. We are homeschoolers, yes, and that allows us the flexibility and common sense to evaluate each situation differently. But in preparing them for higher academia, it must be known that cheating is not taken lightly. There is no permanent mark on her record; it is a co-op class which she can re-enroll in next time.

[Haiku]

Your also going to engage in name calling of the student ?

 

Yes. That's exactly what I would do. You've really got me pegged. I am the teenager-hating, demeaning-loving, witch of a person you've got me pegged as. The jig is up. I've been outed. :D

 

Believe whatever you want. You've clearly decided that I'm just mean and would go about this without an ounce of sensitivity. I'd just bluster in there and say things verbatim as I posted them on a message board. Yep. 100%.

 

I think that a 16 year old who blatantly plagiarizes should fail the class. Sue me. :D

 

Tara

[Joy at Home]

You are missing my point. I am asking if there are more people involved in this situation than has been let on. I am bluntly asking if another person (child or adult) led the op in this direction. Is that why there is such emotion and disgust about it?

 

Actually, plagiarism checks are pretty common practice in high school and college. Again, you talk about emotion and disgust. I just don't see this in this discussion.

[Tidbits of Learning]

Consequences do not equal condemnation and knee jerk reactions. I don't think emotion enters into it. I do not condemn this child. But I would lean toward dismissing her from the class as this seems in line with the offense. It was blatant cheating. We are homeschoolers, yes, and that allows us the flexibility and common sense to evaluate each situation differently. But in preparing them for higher academia, it must be known that cheating is not taken lightly. There is no permanent mark on her record; it is a co-op class which she can re-enroll in next time.

 

The co-ops here don't work this way. It would be brought before the board and discussed. The teacher would not have the authority to dismiss a student from a class. If this is a first offense, then I do think it is knee jerk to say F and now you are banished from the class.

[unsinkable]

Actually, plagiarism checks are pretty common practice in high school and college. Again, you talk about emotion and disgust. I just don't see this in this discussion.

 

The OP titled the thread thoroughly disgusted.

 

Just sayin'

[angela in ohio]

Yes. That's exactly what I would do. You've really got me pegged. I am the teenager-hating, demeaning-loving, witch of a person you've got me pegged as. The jig is up. I've been outed. :D

 

:lol:

 

And you'd hidden it so well for so long. :001_smile:

 

My ds's piano teacher told him that he is part of a 3-legged stool: she puts in time to teach, I pay and drive him there, and he needs to practice. She explained that it is disrespectful to dh and me and a waste of our resources to not do his best. I thought it was great! Sometimes they need to be reminded that they are doing us no favors if they are good students, that it is instead the least they can do considering the sacrifices others make for their education.

[Joy at Home]

The OP titled the thread thoroughly disgusted.

 

Just sayin'

 

 

Got it, thanks:D

[Tidbits of Learning]

Actually, plagiarism checks are pretty common practice in high school and college. Again, you talk about emotion and disgust. I just don't see this in this discussion.

Disgust was the op's phrasing in her original question about the situation. In this thread, it has been suggested that the op should intentionally inflict shame and embarrasment on this child to help her see the error of her ways.

That is where I deduced that there is a high amount of emotion involved along with disgust for the child in question. There has been little talk of actually discussing and mentoring the child with a positive outcome.

The majority would probably gladly mark her with a scarlet C for cheater and have her wear it at the co-op for the semester.

I mean I didn't bring my child home to subject them to something that really should just equal a talk with the parents and child and a reasonable agreement on where to go from there, but instead would turn into an all out ostracization.

Let's just for a minute pretend that instead of this being the op and the student plagairism that it is the parent of the plagairising student and there child has suddenly received an F and been dismissed from a co-op class with no attempt at discussing, mentoring, and resolving the issue. What would everyone's reply be then?

[TXMary2]

So you made an honest mistake, your teacher embarrassed you and now you advocate using shame to teach lessons in what may be a similar situation?

 

This doesn't make sense to me. :confused:

 

I would think you would feel the opposite. If an honest mistake is made, why shame and embarrass?

 

I am all for shame. It works wonders. We are no longer a shame based society and IMNSHO it is why so many people do and say absolutely shameful things and never bat an eye!!!

[Miss Sherry]

Yes. That's exactly what I would do. You've really got me pegged. I am the teenager-hating, demeaning-loving, witch of a person you've got me pegged as. The jig is up. I've been outed. :D

 

Believe whatever you want. You've clearly decided that I'm just mean and would go about this without an ounce of sensitivity. I'd just bluster in there and say things verbatim as I posted them on a message board. Yep. 100%.

 

I think that a 16 year old who blatantly plagiarizes should fail the class. Sue me. :D

 

Tara

Well, yes, I do think your are being sarcastic once again, to me this time. But now I would expect it from you. LOL Being sarcastic and over harsh with TEENAGERS is not acceptable. I do think that many on here are being overly judgmental rather than wanting to be helpful to a teenage girl.

There's really no point in it. Do you just HAVE to vent your anger out on a teenager ? Than take up jogging or something.

By the way, I have no idea how sensitive or not you are IRL, however, the actions and attitude you suggested in this incident were on the mean side and not sensitive.

I certainly hope you would not KICK your own child out of your home (you do homeschool, right ? ) if they cheated. I don't think we can deny that that would be harsh and mean. I also think it's mean to Kick a teenager out of a co-op for cheating, unless they continue to do so after being warned.

[Harriet Vane]

As someone who has taught many a co-op class over many years, I have to say that I have been flabbergasted by the expectations some parents choose to put on me as the teacher, especially considering the fact that my time is voluntary and donated FREE. Most of the parents who benefit from my classes do not return the favor (even if they thank me sincerely).

 

I teach literature, writing, and Bible classes. I spend enormous amounts of time preparing for the class, and I teach in a professional manner.

 

I am not there to parent other people's children. And frankly, the loss of trust in that student's work results in even more time and effort on my plate, all for free.

 

The consequences do not have to be administered in a demeaning or angry way, but consequences do have to happen. In a college or professional setting, the result of plagiarism on this scale is failure, expulsion, loss of employment. Better that a teen face that consequence with a co-op class that is not on record than in a college course.

Edited October 5, 2010 by strider

[Sherry in OH]

Actually, plagiarism checks are pretty common practice in high school and college. Again, you talk about emotion and disgust. I just don't see this in this discussion.

 

Plagiarism checks are not new. Twenty years ago I was one of several graduate assistants paid to read undergraduate papers and exams for professors. Part of my job was to go to the library and verify sources and texts used by the students. If the professor felt the student's writing was suspicious (a paper far better written than previous work by that student would indicate) I had to check every source mentioned in the student's reference list plus others that the professor felt the student might have consulted. I once found several students in a class had plagiarized from their textbook. What student does not think the professor and his/her graduate assistants have read the textbook?

 

The Internet has made plagiarizing easier for students. It has also made checking for plagiarism that much easier for instructors. The reason many high-school teachers and college instructors require electronic submission of papers is that they run all papers through plagiarism detection software.

Edited October 5, 2010 by Sherry in OH

[Bee]

Although the student didn't copy an entire source word for word the teacher felt the student plagarized part of a paper and the student , upon having it pointed out, agreed. The student's paper was marked down a grade and the student was warned that if it happened again she would be expelled. This was an adult student. So I guess my own thoughts would be that it needs to be addressed with the entire class but no specific names mentioned (so that everyone is aware of classroom expectations) and privately with the student who may not have realized they did something wrong. I am seriously dating myself but I don't remember plagarism ever being discussed when I was in elementary or jr high. Citing sources wasn't taught until I was well into high school.

[Harriet Vane]

Well, yes, I do think your are being sarcastic once again, to me this time. But now I would expect it from you. LOL Being sarcastic and over harsh with TEENAGERS is not acceptable. I do think that many on here are being overly judgmental rather than wanting to be helpful to a teenage girl.

There's really no point in it. Do you just HAVE to vent your anger out on a teenager ? Than take up jogging or something.

By the way, I have no idea how sensitive or not you are IRL, however, the actions and attitude you suggested in this incident were on the mean side and not sensitive.

I certainly hope you would not KICK your own child out of your home (you do homeschool, right ? ) if they cheated. I don't think we can deny that that would be harsh and mean. I also think it's mean to Kick a teenager out of a co-op for cheating, unless they continue to do so after being warned.

 

I just have to say here that I have met Tara more than once IRL and I have a really hard time picturing her being mean to anyone. She's truly not like that. I respectfully, gently suggest you consider her comments in a different light.

[WishboneDawn]

Are we reading the same post? :confused:

 

It sounds like her dad was giving her a pass on skipping school but he didn't want to come right out and say he was doing it...

 

I don't think that's what was meant at all. He saw her skipping, let her know he was disappointed and that he expected much better from her. Then he trusted in sense of shame to do the real punishment and correcting for him.

[Miss Sherry]

The co-ops here don't work this way. It would be brought before the board and discussed. The teacher would not have the authority to dismiss a student from a class. If this is a first offense, then I do think it is knee jerk to say F and now you are banished from the class.

"If this is a first offense, then I do think it is knee jerk to say F and now you are banished from the class." I agree with this. I also think handling it that way is obviously about venting anger and NOT about helping a student.

 

I wouldn't give an F for the class. I would given an F for the copied paper but require them to complete the assignment. After they completed the assignment I would grade it, but than reduce the earned grade because by then it would be past the due date. But the thing about grades is, since this is a co-op class, there may not even be grades given. In that case, it would have to be handled differently.

[Harriet Vane]

Although the student didn't copy an entire source word for word the teacher felt the student plagarized part of a paper and the student , upon having it pointed out, agreed. The student's paper was marked down a grade and the student was warned that if it happened again she would be expelled. This was an adult student. So I guess my own thoughts would be that it needs to be addressed with the entire class but no specific names mentioned (so that everyone is aware of classroom expectations) and privately with the student who may not have realized they did something wrong. I am seriously dating myself but I don't remember plagarism ever being discussed when I was in elementary or jr high. Citing sources wasn't taught until I was well into high school.

 

This makes more sense if only part of the paper is plagiarized, and my own response to such a situation would be much, much gentler. In this case, however, every single word of the paper was plagiarized, and the student is 15 or 16 years old (old enough to know better). This isn't a case of improper citation.

[Abigail4476]

IMO, there should be consequences without public embarrassment, and the parents should be informed.

 

On a first offense, I would issue an F, with an averaged grade available if the paper is rewritten in the student's own words.

 

Correction should occur, but obviously just as gently as it would occur with your own child. I'm not sure there's room for any real "disgust", except maybe in the sense of frustration.

[Tidbits of Learning]

Correction should occur, but obviously just as gently as it would occur with your own child.

 

:iagree:

[Miss Sherry]

I just have to say here that I have met Tara more than once IRL and I have a really hard time picturing her being mean to anyone. She's truly not like that. I respectfully, gently suggest you consider her comments in a different light.

Like I already said, I have not met her IRL,and I am ONLY referring to what she insists to do in this instance. I still think that giving an F, failing the student from the class, calling them a cheater, writing a comment to the student that her parents are wasting money on her education, and so on IS mean. Maybe IRL she can say those things in a kind tone. But I find the idea of treating a teenager in such as way as mean. No matter what 'tone" you do it in.

Thats fine for you to say she is kind.

I am not saying she is kind or not kind IRL. I am only addressing the actions she has insisted on and I am of the opinion THEY are not kind.

[Danestress]

16 year olds not to cheat, lie and steal? (and cheating like this really is all three).

 

I agree that there is no need to publicly embarrass the kid. And I know that a 16 year old can do something like this an turn out to be a perfectly good adult - it can be giving into temptation and I would want there to be the grace of understanding that we all fall short of the mark. I would leave it to the parents to address the deeper character issues.

 

But I don't warn 16 year old kids not to cheat. You cheat, you pay the consequence. And I would sit down the girl and her parents and be totally direct with that. If that hurts her feelings, honestly, too bad. I don't think we have to coddle 16 year olds about these things. She didn't improperly quote. She directly copied word-for-word. If she needs to be warned not to do that, there is some kind of serious problem in the family, and I can't imagine how to begin to address that as a teacher. It wouldn't be my place. I would just call the cheating what it is, give the girl the F she earned, and move on.

[Miss Sherry]

IMO, there should be consequences without public embarrassment, and the parents should be informed.

 

On a first offense, I would issue an F, with an averaged grade available if the paper is rewritten in the student's own words.

 

Correction should occur, but obviously just as gently as it would occur with your own child. I'm not sure there's room for any real "disgust", except maybe in the sense of frustration.

This is a much more balanced way to handle it than what I've seen from too many of the other posters. Calling the child a "cheater", expelling from the class, saying your parents are wasting money on your education, purposely embarrassing the student, and any other such nonsense, is just out of line. It's not that there should not be any consequences, but that public embarrassment and humiliation, including sarcastic remarks does not have a place in a classroom with teenagers.

Teacher's should act like (mature) adults. Sometimes they are worse offenders than the students. :tongue_smilie:

[Harriet Vane]

16 year olds not to cheat, lie and steal? (and cheating like this really is all three).

 

I agree that there is no need to publicly embarrass the kid. And I know that a 16 year old can do something like this an turn out to be a perfectly good adult - it can be giving into temptation and I would want there to be the grace of understanding that we all fall short of the mark. I would leave it to the parents to address the deeper character issues.

 

But I don't warn 16 year old kids not to cheat. You cheat, you pay the consequence. And I would sit down the girl and her parents and be totally direct with that. If that hurts her feelings, honestly, too bad. I don't think we have to coddle 16 year olds about these things. She didn't improperly quote. She directly copied word-for-word. If she needs to be warned not to do that, there is some kind of serious problem in the family, and I can't imagine how to begin to address that as a teacher. It wouldn't be my place. I would just call the cheating what it is, give the girl the F she earned, and move on.

 

:cheers2: Hear, hear.

[Haiku]

Being sarcastic and over harsh with TEENAGERS is not acceptable.

 

And I never said it was, nor would I be sarcastic. You took my quickly written first post and nailed me to the floor with it, never considering that I would not be so blunt and abrasive in the actual situation (even though I explained that I would be more subtle). Yes, I would probably do each of the actions I suggested. But continuing to claim that I would be sarcastic and call names just means you are refusing to give me the benefit of the doubt. You can disagree with my solutions without continuing to insist that I would verbally harass the teen. So you think pointing out that money is wasted when kids cheat in class is wrong. Ok, fine, but repeatedly saying I would make sarcastic comments is just plain incorrect. You are leaving no room for nuances in a response. If you disagree with it, it's automatically rude, cruel, harsh, and sarcastic.

 

I got a phone call from my sixteen year old's teacher just this morning that she called out a profanity in class yesterday and received a detention for it. Today, my sweet little angel decided to punish the teacher by making snide comments about her teaching ability to her friends in a voice loud enough for the teacher to hear. When my dd gets home, I think I'll call her a loser, tell her she's a waste of my time and energy, and prophesy that she'll turn out to be a criminal.

 

Oh, wait, that's my evil alter ego. Maybe instead I'll just relieve her of her phone (her most precious possession) for a week and ask her to write an apology letter to her teacher. Calmly, with no name-calling. Of course if you disagree with punishment, even that will paint me as barbaric. So be it. But you know what? If my dd turned in a paper printed off the internet, I would expect that she fail the quarter.

 

Tara

Edited October 5, 2010 by TaraTheLiberator

[Miss Sherry]

And I never said it was, nor would I be sarcastic. You took my quickly written first post and nailed me to the floor with it, never considering that I would not be so blunt and abrasive in the actual situation (even though I explained that I would be more subtle). Yes, I would probably do each of the actions I suggested. But continuing to claim that I would be sarcastic and call names just means you are refusing to give me the benefit of the doubt. You can disagree with my solutions without continuing to insist that I would verbally harass the teen. So you think pointing out that money is wasted when kids cheat in class is wrong. Ok, fine, but repeatedly saying I would make sarcastic comments is just plain incorrect. You are leaving no room for nuances in a response. If you disagree with it, it's automatically rude, cruel, harsh, and sarcastic.

 

I got a phone call from my sixteen year old's teacher just this morning that she called out a profanity in class yesterday and received a detention for it. Today, my sweet little angel decided to punish the teacher by making snide comments about her teaching ability to her friends in a voice loud enough for the teacher to hear. When my dd gets home, I think I'll call her a loser, tell her she's a waste of my time and energy, and prophesy that she'll turn out to be a criminal.

 

Oh, wait, that's my evil alter ego. Maybe instead I'll just relieve her of her phone (her most precious possession) for a week and ask her to write an apology letter to her teacher. Calmly, with no name-calling. Of course if you disagree with punishment, even that will paint me as barbaric. So be it. But you know what? If my dd turned in a paper printed off the internet, I would expect that she fail the quarter.

 

Tara

And when does the sarcasm end ? Come on, give it a rest already. :leaving::banghead:

[Haiku]

And when does the sarcasm end ?

 

Probably when you stop willfully misconstruing what I said. :D

 

Tara

[Joy at Home]

Disgust was the op's phrasing in her original question about the situation. In this thread, it has been suggested that the op should intentionally inflict shame and embarrasment on this child to help her see the error of her ways.

 

 

I would never condone shaming or embarassing anyone, child or adult. Inflicting strict consequences for cheating (yes, it is cheating; I don't see why we need to sugarcoat it) is a very different thing. Also, no one says that expelling her from the class would not include discussion beforehand on the importance of integrity and instruction on plagiarism and why it is taken so seriously. They don't have to be mutually exclusive.

 

I completely agree, however, that ALL people should be treated with respect, even when disciplined.

[StephanieZ]

RE: IEW

 

While I don't think IEW is the be-all-end-all writing program, I feel the need to defend it against the implication that it encourages plagarizing and that it doesn't move beyond rephrasing of someone else's paragraph. . .

 

Those two techniques that are being cited are the first two "units" of the 9 IEW fundamental units. . . Those two units simply set the stage for the more complex units to follow. In an entire school year, a first time IEW student might spend 4-6 weeks on those two units. A repeat IEW student might spend 1-4 weeks. More than that means something is wrong -- probably an inexperienced IEW teacher who isn't getting past the beginning of the concepts into the meatier stuff.

 

IEW repeatedly, clearly instructs folks to go through all the units each year (sparing possibly the last one or two for very young writers) and to NOT get stuck on those first units.

 

The subsequent units involve composing original works using KWOs of the writer's ideas and/or synthesizing ideas from multiple sources into an original paper. . .NOT paraphrasing other authors.

[Joy at Home]

RE: IEW

 

While I don't think IEW is the be-all-end-all writing program, I feel the need to defend it against the implication that it encourages plagarizing and that it doesn't move beyond rephrasing of someone else's paragraph. . .

 

Those two techniques that are being cited are the first two "units" of the 9 IEW fundamental units. . . Those two units simply set the stage for the more complex units to follow. In an entire school year, a first time IEW student might spend 4-6 weeks on those two units. A repeat IEW student might spend 1-4 weeks. More than that means something is wrong -- probably an inexperienced IEW teacher who isn't getting past the beginning of the concepts into the meatier stuff.

 

IEW repeatedly, clearly instructs folks to go through all the units each year (sparing possibly the last one or two for very young writers) and to NOT get stuck on those first units.

 

The subsequent units involve composing original works using KWOs of the writer's ideas and/or synthesizing ideas from multiple sources into an original paper. . .NOT paraphrasing other authors.

 

 

Yes, exactly.

[Alicia64]

I know I'll be disagreed with big time, but I'd call it a cry for help. All of this "give her an F and tell her parents" might be the right way to go.

 

But, then again, there may be a million things behind this behavior. She may not feel confident in her skills and may feel like she doesn't know what to do. She may be having serious personal problems and doesn't focus on school much because of it. Who knows?

 

I hope you won't automatically pooh-pooh me and consider what might be behind her actions.

 

I realize you're not a therapist, but you're a person in contact with her. And sometimes that's all a teen has.

 

Alley

[Pretty in Pink]

I did not read all...14?...pages of this thread. I will say that if my 16 year old child (that's correct, right? the offender is 16 years old?) were caught plagiarizing to the extent described by the OP, I would absolutely expect them to receive a grade of '0' on that assignment. I would not expect them to receive a second chance on the assignment.

 

Sixteen years old is old enough to know better. Really, it is. There is no excuse.

 

It is probably time for the OP to have a discussion with her class regarding plagiarism, and time for the co-op to form a policy on the subject.

 

FWIW, the policy at our CC is that the student receives a '0' on the assignment for the first offense and expulsion from the class for the second offense.

[Gwenhwyfar]

 

But, then again, there may be a million things behind this behavior.

 

that's what i was saying earlier in the thread somewhere... i'd want to find out WHY this happened before deciding on any course of action.

[OnTheBrink]

 

ETA: I am surprised by the number of people who are advocating some degree of leniency in this. To me, that comes off as coddling. Teenagers need to be responsible for their own mistakes. There is no way this kid could have believed what she was doing was ok, and she needs real-world consequences, not warm fuzzies and excuses.

 

Tara

 

I totally agree with this. At 15/16 years old? She knows what she did is wrong.

[elizabeth]

It is a sign of something when Tara the Liberator, Sola Michella and elizabeth the self proclaimed so left she's pink progressive are in agreement on an issue. To fail to teach clearly and without exception that cheating by way of plagiarism and stealing intellectual property is worthy of a F and the door, is to fail in a fundamental way to teach how to live in the world. It is grounds for a failing grade and expulsion at every college and grad school I attended and you do not get your money back. Better a teary and guilt ridden teen today than a law school student who is kicked out and refused a seat for next years class until you can prove that you have the ethics and intellect to serve the bar. It happened to three students our freshman year. Do you know what happened if you saw another student cheat or commit plagiarism and failed to report them? You were given the boot as well. No joke. 40,000.00 down the toilet. Teach the lesson now and prevent far greater harm later. BTW the punks that committed plagiarism and cheated by stealing another student's work were from...Stanford and SUNY. They were too good for our little ol midwestern law school but lacked the cojones to stand on their own two feet and fail like real adults, honestly. They would not have been kicked out but placed on probation had they simply not made a C. Poor choices that no doubt worked in a prior setting in either hs or undergrad. It is no kindness to delude students into thinking that cheating is acceptable.

[Corraleno]

Knowing that something is "wrong," and understanding just how "wrong" adults consider it to be, are two different things. Lying is wrong, but most people would see a difference between telling a white lie to spare someone's feelings and lying under oath. A teen may know that "copying something off the internet" is not right, but she may think it's more akin to telling a little white lie than lying under oath. She may not at all be equating it with a criminal act, and she may have no idea that an adult would see it as "lying, cheating, and stealing."

 

Maybe this kid has a heavy course load, a ton of extra-curriculars, poor time management skills, and no writing background. Maybe she was sitting at the computer the night before the paper was due, freaking out because she had no idea how to write the assignment, beating herself up over mismanaging the time, and her mother was yelling at her to get to bed, so she panicked and copied something off the internet. Expulsion from the class may "teach her a lesson," but it doesn't teach her any of the specific lessons she needs to learn to avoid the issues that got her there in the first place.

 

I'd give her an F for the assignment, make her redo it (including helping her if she needs help) and have a discussion with the entire class about the seriousness of plagiarism. She made a stupid mistake, but I think she should have a second chance to make it right. A second offense, OTOH, I would consider grounds for expulsion.

 

Jackie

[Susan C.]

Well..... I didn't even know what plagiarism was until I sat in on a college prep. homeschool meeting. Serious. I was a good student. We all copied things for papers, it was the norm. (Not research papers, but short assignments). I do know now, though, and have taught my kids about it.

 

So, give the young teen the benefit of the doubt if there hasn't been a lesson about it. Now if there has, and this was in defiance of that, then that is another story.

Edited October 6, 2010 by Susan C.
error

[Joy at Home]

It is a sign of something when Tara the Liberator, Sola Michella and elizabeth the self proclaimed so left she's pink progressive are in agreement on an issue. To fail to teach clearly and without exception that cheating by way of plagiarism and stealing intellectual property is worthy of a F and the door, is to fail in a fundamental way to teach how to live in the world. It is grounds for a failing grade and expulsion at every college and grad school I attended and you do not get your money back. Better a teary and guilt ridden teen today than a law school student who is kicked out and refused a seat for next years class until you can prove that you have the ethics and intellect to serve the bar. It happened to three students our freshman year. Do you know what happened if you saw another student cheat or commit plagiarism and failed to report them? You were given the boot as well. No joke. 40,000.00 down the toilet. Teach the lesson now and prevent far greater harm later. BTW the punks that committed plagiarism and cheated by stealing another student's work were from...Stanford and SUNY. They were too good for our little ol midwestern law school but lacked the cojones to stand on their own two feet and fail like real adults, honestly. They would not have been kicked out but placed on probation had they simply not made a C. Poor choices that no doubt worked in a prior setting in either hs or undergrad. It is no kindness to delude students into thinking that cheating is acceptable.

 

Yes.

 

Seeing adult learners leave campus in tears after being expelled from the nursing program they sacrificed and worked for years to be accepted to has taught me take plagiarism very seriously. I'd rather dd learn this lesson at 15 while the stakes are not so high.

[Caitilin]

Since it didn't come across in my 2 previous attempts in asking the same question, I will ask more bluntly to the op.

How exactly did you find out that the girl cheated? Were you led to the web site by mere intuition or did another student or parent lead you in that direction? Has this incident been discussed with the co-op powers that be or with other parents besides the girl's parents?

I am curious why everyone is so ready to jump on a bandwagon of expel and not a bandwagon of that child needs guidance and help with more than just writing. As a teacher and a parent, we are mentors to our children and those children that are put in our care and guidance.

 

 

I am the OP. I have known and taught all the kids in this class but one (and he is not the offender) for several years. I have a fairly good sense of their capacities as writers, and of their "voice." The paper the student turned in was commensurate with neither. I took the first sentence in her paper, and typed it into the yahoo search engine. The complete "essay" showed up within the first 5 hits. I had no doubt that she had not written the whole thing, but it had not occurred to me that she would have simply cut and pasted the ENTIRE thing--but that's what she did. It was utterly unchanged. I will post up/downthread about what I did to resolve the situation.

[Alphabetika]

If it were one of my students, I would inform the parents, and also give her an F. Possibly expel her from the class if she did not act remorseful. I would not give her a chance to rewrite the paper.

 

 

:iagree: Nip this in the bud NOW. When I was in college, two girls turned in the same paper, to the same teacher, whom they had at different time. (i.e., they were in the same class, not the same section). I guess they thought he wouldn't notice, but of course, he did. I believe they came very close to being expelled, as the paper was plagiarized in the first place.

[HRAAB]

If it were my 16 yr old dd, and the teacher did not give her an 'F', I would be talking to the teacher. Frankly, my dd would probably rather face the teacher and being expelled than face her mom and dad if she did this.

 

Mean parents that we are.

[Caitilin]

You are missing my point. I am asking if there are more people involved in this situation than has been let on. I am bluntly asking if another person (child or adult) led the op in this direction. Is that why there is such emotion and disgust about it?

 

No. There was no other person involved. I know the student, I know what she has been able to write before, and I knew that what was in that essay was not her writing. No one so much as breathed the possibility of this to me. I don't especially appreciate the implication that I am out to get this student, or that I would take any interest in any tale-bearing that another person might engage in. I know my students; I trusted them; I am hurt that the student would try to fool me in this way; I am disgusted because to me, it's like having dirty money handed to me to launder. I majored in English because I loved it, both emotionally and intellectually; I care about writing; I care about intellectual property; and I care about honesty--A LOT.

[Murphy101]

that's what i was saying earlier in the thread somewhere... i'd want to find out WHY this happened before deciding on any course of action.

 

The course of action should apply regardless of reason.

 

There is ZERO excuse for this in any student over the age of 8.

 

I think it sends a terrible message that if you can just come up with a good enough sob story or claim sheer obvious ignorance due to lack of paying any attention whatsoever - well of course those people shouldn't have to suffer the consequences of their lying and cheating.

 

I'd give a zero for the assignment if they are under 12 and have them do the assignment properly without a grade in order to stay in the class.

 

Over age 12, expelled.

 

If they are having problems, then that is for the parents to deal with.

Maybe having more time at home will give them the time to deal with that.

 

If I were the parent, this is what I would expect.

 

And having a teacher practice at being an amateur therapist on my kid would NOT make me happier. By all means if you feel it was because the student was not up to the rigors of the class or appears to be having problems understanding the assignments - let me know. But otherwise, no thank you.

[justamouse]

it is wrong, it is wrong, it is wrong. I know you know it is wrong, but at 15??--heck, at 5, 6, 7 kids need to be taught that copying is wrong. At 15 an F and expulsion. Period, Full Stop.

 

Do you have a director? Have you talked to them?

 

As a writer I cannot even begin to tell you --it is SUCH a violation to the person that is plagiarized.

 

Coming down on teens for senior pranks that hurt no one is ridiculous. This is nothing like that. This is not folly, this is a serious crime of intellectual property.