s/o judgemental Christians thread

[weaver_67579]

OK....I will admit to not reading anywhere near the whole thing.

 

I get that it is painful to be rejected for how you look, what you like....been there done that. I do feel for the OP's son on that thread. I was the geeky girl that lived on a farm and had more critters for friends than people-still do. On top of that DH was raised very conservative Mennonite-and let's just say I was far from that culture....very far.

 

I get how we should look at who a person is -vs- how they look...

 

but really, I don't have time to get to deeply get to know every human being I meet. I know I make decisions to not necessarily hang with folks based on some things I assume from appearance, likes, preferences. Everyone does. The Amish lady at the top of the hill will likely not be a peep of mine since I am not remotely conservative (religious wise) and I drink, wear shorts... the list goes on-somehow I doubt she misses me being her pal and that is ok. I don't diss her, but I'm not wasting my time trying to be her best friend when I am more likely to find good friends with similar interests to mine. I don't judge her for her conservative bent

(as in I don't think she is a bad Christian since she hasn't been down for fellowship)-but I'm not going out of my way to be her friend. Does that make me an evil Christian for "screening" her out for best buddy status before we have a chance to try? Sure, I miss out on some cool folks that could be friends with. I also save a bunch of time not having coffee and heartfelt chats with a dozen people a week. That being said-I am a 40 yo housewife with 2 best friends that are: a woman in her 70's that was a bank president and a man in his 60's-retired from a lifetime in the military and crusty as you can get. All of us are opinionated with strong personalities. Nobody outside our group understands how we stay friends-when we can argue like nobody's business. We became friends due to common interests-not church affiliation or even attendance.

 

I don't get the hostility I saw on that thread toward people that were up front with the idea that appearance makes a difference to some people and if you choose to appear a certain way that might turn some people off-well you may not have much luck hanging with that crowd. DH runs a feed mill serving primarily the dairy industry. A huge percentage of his clients are Amish or Mennonite. I doubt he will be hiring too many pierced tatoo'd up the neck and on the face sales guys or a gal in a tube top and diasy dukes either-it would be bad for business as it would liekly offend his customers. In real life-sometimes those kinds of decisions do affect your prospects. I remember a high school teacher telling us that having visable tatoos and certain piercings may affect your job prospects. apparently this is nothing new.

 

I also don't get how anyone thinks we can realistically take the time to really get to know everyone we meet. Really, haven't we all met people that just don't click with us? some after only a very short meeting? Am I really then obligated to take them out to dinner or hang with them in some other way-even if we do not obviously click? Do we have to like everyone we meet? I don't. What if you get to know someone and you don't like them still? Does that make you a bad Christian?

 

My family and I have attended church now for 2 1/2 years or so. We are now members and i like it pretty well. I can't say I have anyone I would really call a friend there. I am friendly with several-but not someone I would really do friend stuff with. I haven't found anyone with interests that really match mine. That is OK. Just because we are all Christians at that church-doesn't mean we have to be bosom buddies. or does it? Am I missing something? Could it be that the kid just didn't "click" with the group he was trying to fit into? I don't fit into every group I have been around, but have found some I do...such is life.

 

Ok I will now end my confused, questioning late-night ramble.... Maybe someone can shed some light on why I ponder such things 2-3 hours past my bedtime...or at all.

[Joanne]

I don't get the hostility I saw on that thread toward people that were up front with the idea that appearance makes a difference to some people and if you choose to appear a certain way that might turn some people off-well you may not have much luck hanging with that crowd.

 

It's simple. The objection is that the "avoid the peirced child" sentiment was based only on a cosmetic expression, the young man was assumed, based on shallow reasons, to be a "risk" and his character was already questioned.

[LibraryLover]

I enjoy the nose piercings of the brave as much as I enjoy the head coverings of the Amish. I loved the Osbornes. I love the Duggars. It's *all* wonderful to me. I am a most 'regular'-looking person. I told my husband today, "I think I could write out a check for a million dollars over my total at the supermarket and nobody would bother asking me for an ID."

 

I lovelovelovelovelove the variety.

Edited October 5, 2010 by LibraryLover

[Oops, duplicate account :/]

Birds of a feather flock together PPL. That is LIFE! I think it's uber strange to have distracting piercings on your face or whatever. I don't like looking at them. The wig me out. I don't usually think they are pretty or artistic. Most the time, I think they are UGLY and FREAKY. I'll love ya, but I don't have to hang with you and be your best friend. Friendly. YES. Loving. YES. Friends. NO. If I want to watch ppl that look like they came from a horror movie, then I'd rent one. I never would. If you want to look a certain way (SCARY) then don't expect everyone to want to look at your scary face!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

My Chrisitian neighbor down the street wears skirts/dresses only. She see them as more modest. I would not expect her to invite me over and hang out with the family, because my BUTT would be too distracting and she wants to protect her family for the perceived immodesty. I GET it. It goes both ways.

Edited October 5, 2010 by mommyjen

[freetobeme]

I lovelovelovelovelove the variety.

 

this is where i wanna be!

[Mimm]

It might not be realistic to expect people to perfectly never ever judge on appearances. The hostility in the thread was directed toward those who defended making judgments on appearances, who saw nothing wrong with this. I'm sure every single one of us has made snap judgments about people. I know I do. But I'm not proud of it. I don't think that's ok for me to do.

[weaver_67579]

It's simple. The objection is that the "avoid the peirced child" sentiment was based only on a cosmetic expression, the young man was assumed, based on shallow reasons, to be a "risk" and his character was already questioned.

 

Why is it bad to screen out folks you don't think will "fit" with you and your group? I was turned down by a local Christian homeschool group-apparently I'm not Christian enough-don't attend the right church, I'm not YE....I don't get why that is a problem and even posted here as to why that would be a problem in a Christian Group (I'm very live and let live as far as religious beliefs and have friends of several different and no faith), but I am fine with it. I don't think they are non-Christian for it and I guess I feel like it saved me some wasted time trying to make friends with folks that I obviously don't have enough in common with. Now I know that if I run into the folks that turned me down for membership, I won't be asking them to coffee. if some guy stopped by with local gang type clothes on driving a lowered Cadillac with spinners-he's probably not getting invited in for supper here. Yes I am making a judgement based solely on appearance-but he is still not coming in my house. Is it just that they called his character into question? or that they judged him on his appearance? both together? How long do you have to give "knowing" someone to be able to determine they aren't friend material for you without being a bad Christian? Do you have to try and be buds with everyone you meet? I am not talking being nice-but being friends. Why isn't it ok to just be friendly without looking for a new friend? or is it?

[Oops, duplicate account :/]

Why is it bad to screen out folks you don't think will "fit" with you and your group? I was turned down by a local Christian homeschool group-apparently I'm not Christian enough-don't attend the right church, I'm not YE....I don't get why that is a problem and even posted here as to why that would be a problem in a Christian Group (I'm very live and let live as far as religious beliefs and have friends of several different and no faith), but I am fine with it. I don't think they are non-Christian for it and I guess I feel like it saved me some wasted time trying to make friends with folks that I obviously don't have enough in common with. Now I know that if I run into the folks that turned me down for membership, I won't be asking them to coffee. if some guy stopped by with local gang type clothes on driving a lowered Cadillac with spinners-he's probably not getting invited in for supper here. Yes I am making a judgement based solely on appearance-but he is still not coming in my house. Is it just that they called his character into question? or that they judged him on his appearance? both together? How long do you have to give "knowing" someone to be able to determine they aren't friend material for you without being a bad Christian? Do you have to try and be buds with everyone you meet? I am not talking being nice-but being friends. Why isn't it ok to just be friendly without looking for a new friend? or is it?

:iagree:

[Audrey]

I know I make decisions to not necessarily hang with folks based on some things I assume from appearance, likes, preferences. Everyone does. The Amish lady at the top of the hill will likely not be a peep of mine since I am not remotely conservative (religious wise) and I drink, wear shorts... the list goes on-somehow I doubt she misses me being her pal and that is ok. I don't diss her, but I'm not wasting my time trying to be her best friend when I am more likely to find good friends with similar interests to mine.

 

 

When I think of my dearest friend -- a Hutterite woman -- and I think of how different we are, I am glad that she did not look at me and decide I wasn't worth wasting her time on. I am glad that I didn't think she wasn't worth wasting my time on. I wouldn't want to think of my life now without her in it. She's such a beautiful soul in my life.

 

Not everyone lets appearances dictate their relationships. Some people choose, instead, to see the heart of a person. That is never a waste of time. People are never a waste of time.

[Carol in Cal.]

I'm musing here, but I think...

 

It's different to say that you will love and accept everyone than it is to say that you will love and accept and invite everyone to play with your child. We should be biased in favor of being inclusive as Christians, but we also have a vocation of taking care of our children and raising them in the best way that we can.

 

If someone dresses or talks in a way that signals that they have values that you don't want your child to pick up, it just stands to reason that you might befriend them yourself, but perhaps not be so keen on having them over to hang out with your child. I am not sure that there is anything wrong with that kind of selectivity. After all, it's hard to get to know someone well enough to see past an alarming appearance.

 

Having said that, my DD has one very close friend who looks like a druggie skaterboy. Her hanging out with him has raised some eyebrows and probably has damaged her reputation a bit. But we have been friends with his family for 6 years, and he is no druggie (he just dresses and wears his hair like one), and I'm glad to host him and for her to hang out with him. I would not want to drop someone for superficial reasons, and I'm glad that my DD is the same way.

 

On the piercing issue, specifically, I hate to feel this way but piercings gross me out completely. I just think they look horrible, and it's hard for me to look at someone with a tongue or lip or eyebrow piercing. It's the one thing that if my DD did I would have a hard time being in the same room with her, not because it's morally worse than a lot of other things, but because the appearance of it is so completely repugnant to me. I know that I am not the only one who feels this way, and in the long run that kind of appearance will really hold someone back in their employment, I think. I don't judge someone who does that, but it's hard to be around it for me.

[Slartibartfast]

The thread isn't about an adult, the thread is about a teen.

 

I don't care if people judge me on my looks, I am sure many do (and the people who do that I don't care to know) but the person being treated bad by ADULTS is not their peer, he is a teenager. A teen who belongs to a family that shares their faith.

 

We should be above such things

Edited October 5, 2010 by Sis

[IsabelC]

I think there is a difference between not expecting somebody to be your bosom buddy (OK) and deciding that somebody is Bad (not OK).

[Imprimis]

 

Having said that, my DD has one very close friend who looks like a druggie skaterboy. Her hanging out with him has raised some eyebrows and probably has damaged her reputation a bit. But we have been friends with his family for 6 years, and he is no druggie (he just dresses and wears his hair like one), and I'm glad to host him and for her to hang out with him. I would not want to drop someone for superficial reasons, and I'm glad that my DD is the same way.

 

 

How do "druggies" dress and wear their hair?

Edited October 5, 2010 by Imprimis

[weaver_67579]

It might not be realistic to expect people to perfectly never ever judge on appearances. The hostility in the thread was directed toward those who defended making judgments on appearances, who saw nothing wrong with this. I'm sure every single one of us has made snap judgments about people. I know I do. But I'm not proud of it. I don't think that's ok for me to do.

 

But still don't get the hostility. I may be on the hostile recieving end soon I guess. I don't see anything wrong with deciding on a very short meeting that someone may not be someone I want to hang with. I am not talking that I call their beliefs into question, but I may never want to see them again socially. Maybe we just don't Click. Like someone upthread mentioned, I find a ton of piercings and garish tats on the face a bit offputting. More power if you want them, but I'm not likely to go out of my way to meet you. On the other hand-you may not be too interested in the fat, frumpy housewife that I am either-and that doesn't bother me if you don't invite me over for tea. I realize that my lack of attention to my personal appearance affects what others think of me and live the consequences of those decisions. I'm probably not going to fit in at the local jogging club and don't think those that do are not nice people in general because they would wonder why I was there when I obviously don't fit.

 

Maybe it is more a matter of trying fit into a round hole when you are a square peg. If the conservative Christian group is well-too conservative, should you be surprised, angry....or should you try and find a better fit? When I was dating DH, I stuck out like a sore thumb at his parent's church when visiting. They had a dress code-and I wasn't interested (neither was DH) but I had no reason to be angry with them because they would have required me to adhere to it if I wanted to belong. Some groups have written rules and some unwritten. The one beef I do have with some Christian homeschool groups is that they are not up-front with exactly what they will accept or allow. This was a probem when I was trying to join a local Christian group. The issue was they did not let me know up front that you basically had to believe in a literal interpretation of the Bible in all things to be a member-even when their paperwork said you did not have to sign the SOF stating so. Why not just be up-front and save us both some time... On the other hand-I don't have any issues with them as Christians for having such a standard. I don't agree it is necessary and don't understand why they feel they need it, but I really don't care.

 

 

Rambling again.....

[Shawna in Texas]

The thread isn't about an adult, the thread is about a child.

 

I don't care if people judge me on my looks, I am sure many do (and the people who do that I don't care to know) but the person being treated bad by ADULTS is not their peer, he is a child.

 

:iagree:

 

Speaking as an adult, I've had a hard time of it. I dress really conservatively, I'm introverted, so meeting new people is hard. I've ventured into a few groups and once people find out I'm a liberal atheist who listens to punk rock, play groups end comically quickly. Maybe I should dye my hair pink, so that we can get initial impressions over with. :tongue_smilie:

[Slartibartfast]

But still don't get the hostility. I may be on the hostile recieving end soon I guess. I don't see anything wrong with deciding on a very short meeting that someone may not be someone I want to hang with. I am not talking that I call their beliefs into question, but I may never want to see them again socially. Maybe we just don't Click. Like someone upthread mentioned, I find a ton of piercings and garish tats on the face a bit offputting. More power if you want them, but I'm not likely to go out of my way to meet you. On the other hand-you may not be too interested in the fat, frumpy housewife that I am either-and that doesn't bother me if you don't invite me over for tea. I realize that my lack of attention to my personal appearance affects what others think of me and live the consequences of those decisions. I'm probably not going to fit in at the local jogging club and don't think those that do are not nice people in general because they would wonder why I was there when I obviously don't fit.

 

Maybe it is more a matter of trying fit into a round hole when you are a square peg. If the conservative Christian group is well-too conservative, should you be surprised, angry....or should you try and find a better fit? When I was dating DH, I stuck out like a sore thumb at his parent's church when visiting. They had a dress code-and I wasn't interested (neither was DH) but I had no reason to be angry with them because they would have required me to adhere to it if I wanted to belong. Some groups have written rules and some unwritten. The one beef I do have with some Christian homeschool groups is that they are not up-front with exactly what they will accept or allow. This was a probem when I was trying to join a local Christian group. The issue was they did not let me know up front that you basically had to believe in a literal interpretation of the Bible in all things to be a member-even when their paperwork said you did not have to sign the SOF stating so. Why not just be up-front and save us both some time... On the other hand-I don't have any issues with them as Christians for having such a standard. I don't agree it is necessary and don't understand why they feel they need it, but I really don't care.

 

 

Rambling again.....

 

But they SHARE a faith. You keep talking about different religions and they are not different religions.

 

Yeah. I would consider that wrong

 

My child does hang out with children who are different religions. If I wasn't teaching her a good grounding in the Bible it might be a concern but dd is comfortable with who she is. She knows different religions exist.

[Oops, duplicate account :/]

But still don't get the hostility. I may be on the hostile recieving end soon I guess. I don't see anything wrong with deciding on a very short meeting that someone may not be someone I want to hang with. I am not talking that I call their beliefs into question, but I may never want to see them again socially. Maybe we just don't Click. Like someone upthread mentioned, I find a ton of piercings and garish tats on the face a bit offputting. More power if you want them, but I'm not likely to go out of my way to meet you. On the other hand-you may not be too interested in the fat, frumpy housewife that I am either-and that doesn't bother me if you don't invite me over for tea. I realize that my lack of attention to my personal appearance affects what others think of me and live the consequences of those decisions. I'm probably not going to fit in at the local jogging club and don't think those that do are not nice people in general because they would wonder why I was there when I obviously don't fit.

 

Maybe it is more a matter of trying fit into a round hole when you are a square peg. If the conservative Christian group is well-too conservative, should you be surprised, angry....or should you try and find a better fit? When I was dating DH, I stuck out like a sore thumb at his parent's church when visiting. They had a dress code-and I wasn't interested (neither was DH) but I had no reason to be angry with them because they would have required me to adhere to it if I wanted to belong. Some groups have written rules and some unwritten. The one beef I do have with some Christian homeschool groups is that they are not up-front with exactly what they will accept or allow. This was a probem when I was trying to join a local Christian group. The issue was they did not let me know up front that you basically had to believe in a literal interpretation of the Bible in all things to be a member-even when their paperwork said you did not have to sign the SOF stating so. Why not just be up-front and save us both some time... On the other hand-I don't have any issues with them as Christians for having such a standard. I don't agree it is necessary and don't understand why they feel they need it, but I really don't care.

 

 

Rambling again.....

 

:iagree:

[weaver_67579]

When I think of my dearest friend -- a Hutterite woman -- and I think of how different we are, I am glad that she did not look at me and decide I wasn't worth wasting her time on. I am glad that I didn't think she wasn't worth wasting my time on. I wouldn't want to think of my life now without her in it. She's such a beautiful soul in my life.

 

Not everyone lets appearances dictate their relationships. Some people choose, instead, to see the heart of a person. That is never a waste of time. People are never a waste of time.

 

which was I don't have time to "hang" and get to know everyone I meet super well, so I am likely to kind of pre-screen folks who are very unlikely to have much in common with me. I am rather introverted and making friends is not a fun thing for me and is very draining. I'm going to hedge my bets on places, groups that involve interests of mine where I am likely to meet people with similar interests to have something to talk about. It is not that I think she is a waste of time. It is also not due to the fact that she is Amish in that I don't think she is bad for being Amish. DH was raised Horning Mennonite. Because of his background, I do know that I am likely not going to have a ton of things in common with this woman's lifestyle or religious beliefs. I am nice to her when I see her-like any other neighbor, but feel no need to go out of my way to be her buddy.

 

Now my best friend I met because I saw her obviously very nice dogs in the backyard while walking down the alley. She invited me to a Kennel Club meeting. Dogs and training them is an interest of both of ours-friendship almost immediately-even though she is 30 years my senior, never married, never had kids and spent much of her life as a bank president-very different life from mine. I guess the point is-friendship for me is something that just happens and always has over common interest-not by forcing myself on someone that is just there-or having them do the same. BTW-Amish lady has no dog;) and has no kids. My 3 dearest friends are dog folks and the few friends I am making now since I moved here are all homeschool moms that don't fit the mold of the local homeschool group. many homeschool for academic rather than religious reasons (though most have some religious affiliation-but not all) and tend to march to the beat of a different drum. I can be friendly with a lot of people, but find true friends few and far between

[weaver_67579]

But they SHARE a faith. You keep talking about different religions and they are not different religions.

 

Yeah. I would consider that wrong

 

My child does hang out with children who are different religions. If I wasn't teaching her a good grounding in the Bible it might be a concern but dd is comfortable with who she is. She knows different religions exist.

 

Maybe I should go to bed.....

 

Are they from the same church? Is it just a generic Christian group? Even Christians can vary widely I am fairly liberal in the religious front and my husbands Horning Mennonite grandparents are very conservative. Believe me-there is a huge difference between us even though we would both consider ourselves Christian.

 

You would consider what wrong? I asked and rambled so much-I can't figure what you thought was wrong ;).

 

I love meeting folks of different religious beliefs too and btw-kid in the other thread would't bother me a bit. I'm not big on piercings in general though. One or two in the ears, other than that, I find offputting.

[Peela]

I suspect that for most people, the more sheltered and narrow a circle they actually mingle within...and the stronger the judgements they have of those outside their range of experience....the more closed and narrow minded they become as they get older. Then they become like the older, judgemental people they might once have not liked so much when they were younger, because they didnt feel understood or valued by them.

 

Unless one consciously chooses to become aware of and overcome one's innate and culturally indoctrinated conditioning such as prejudices against piercings...and deliberately see the person beneath...one just gets to live in that narrow and superficial world- and then defend one's isolationist policy!

 

Once someone you really, reallylove gets a piercing, or a tattoo, or gets a mohawk or declares their homosexuality, or you are thrown into a social situaition where you get to see the deep soul of a person who you otherwise judged...you get the opportunity to choose to just love them and enjoy them and recognise your common humanity- and that could be a street hobo or a movie star going through rehab or your own child. You can be friends, too...doesnt mean you arent smart about your boundaries, doesnt mean you will be best friends...but you CAN be friends.

 

I just reckon the world needs a hell of a lot more tolerance and willingness to accept people for who they are, and openness towards each other...rather than more defensiveness, petty judgements and "us and them" mentality.

 

It IS normal to resist and be frightened of the unknown, of people who look different. I am sure its an inbuilt survival mechanism. However we have the capacity within us to go beyond our basest behaviour, to come out of our narrow minded conditioning and knee jerk reactions. Whether we choose to grow into our better selves or stay in our more basic, primitive selves, is really up to us, once we have seen the choice.

[weaver_67579]

The thread isn't about an adult, the thread is about a teen.

 

I don't care if people judge me on my looks, I am sure many do (and the people who do that I don't care to know) but the person being treated bad by ADULTS is not their peer, he is a teenager. A teen who belongs to a family that shares their faith.

 

We should be above such things

 

if the kids decided they didn't like the other kiddo in question-that is ok? It's the parents that decide the OP's kid is not setting the kind of exmaple they want for their kid, question his choices and nix friendship that are the bad Christians?

 

This gives me more questions. Now I feel like my 5 year old:). So-should they let a kid hang out with their kids even though they don't agree with some of his choices-waiting to see if he lives up to their expectations of behavior? Is this bad just because they are supposedly of the same type of religious background and should trust kid in question? I was a church going girl in my youth and let me tell you-you conservative folks would likely not have wanted me hanging with your kids-drinking like a fish, cussing, s*x. Maybe that is why I am giving the parents a break. I know not all church-kids are a pure as the driven snow. I am in no way saying the op's kid on the other thread has any vices at all-only that there are kids with less than stellar morals in church too. I had friends that attended church too-who were involved in similar things-and whose parents would have declared they were pure as the driven snow to everyone in church-some didn't know what they were up to and some-didn't want to.

 

I'm sure you all expect me to think the kid in question is bad-I don't. I do think that chosing to dress, pierce, tatoo, hairdo...your way out of the mainstream of whatever group you want to fit into may cause you not to fit in. I think this kid is learning this lesson-in a sad way. I don't get why people don't think this would/should happen. That is life-out of the mainstream is out of the mainstream. If you choose it-expect to be out there. On the other hand, I feel for the people being bashed too. They are trying to help their kids steer clear from trouble and bad influences in the best way they know how. I don't get the idea of how those parents are supposed to know kiddo in question is indeed a good kid inside. Like I asked above-wait and see-maybe after bad things are introduced. You cannot assume church going/membership is only populated by truly good people. It is not. My kids are younger still. I doubt what the op on the other thread told us about her kid would bother me-hair clothes.... certain behaviors would though-smoking, drugs, underage drinking...

[Slartibartfast]

Maybe I should go to bed.....

 

Are they from the same church? Is it just a generic Christian group? Even Christians can vary widely I am fairly liberal in the religious front and my husbands Horning Mennonite grandparents are very conservative. Believe me-there is a huge difference between us even though we would both consider ourselves Christian.

 

You would consider what wrong? I asked and rambled so much-I can't figure what you thought was wrong ;).

I love meeting folks of different religious beliefs too and btw-kid in the other thread would't bother me a bit. I'm not big on piercings in general though. One or two in the ears, other than that, I find offputting.

 

 

Would your ILs judge your children if they were not "Conservative enough?"

If your dh had much younger sibling would they prevent them knowing one another?

 

I do not prescreen based on appearence. I do not look like everyone else just due to my genes, I was mocked a lot for those things. I do think it made me more tolerant. I have been to the Land of Misfit Toys and I really don't care.

Edited October 5, 2010 by Sis

[weaver_67579]

I think there is a difference between not expecting somebody to be your bosom buddy (OK) and deciding that somebody is Bad (not OK).

 

My comments to that point are in response to the other thread where I saw a bunch of comments on how people shouldn't just look at someone's outside, but get to know them on the inside. I agree that is good in principal-and when you want to know someone. In practice it is impractical or impossible to do so with everyone you meet-even on a limited basis. In reality-you have to do some pre-screening to choose who to get to know better. I would be forever in Wal-Mart and even church if I didn't.

[IsabelC]

I suspect that for most people, the more sheltered and narrow a circle they actually mingle within...and the stronger the judgements they have of those outside their range of experience....the more closed and narrow minded they become as they get older. Then they become like the older, judgemental people they might once have not liked so much when they were younger, because they didnt feel understood or valued by them.

 

Unless one consciously chooses to become aware of and overcome one's innate and culturally indoctrinated conditioning such as prejudices against piercings...and deliberately see the person beneath...one just gets to live in that narrow and superficial world- and then defend one's isolationist policy!

 

Once someone you really, reallylove gets a piercing, or a tattoo, or gets a mohawk or declares their homosexuality, or you are thrown into a social situaition where you get to see the deep soul of a person who you otherwise judged...you get the opportunity to choose to just love them and enjoy them and recognise your common humanity- and that could be a street hobo or a movie star going through rehab or your own child. You can be friends, too...doesnt mean you arent smart about your boundaries, doesnt mean you will be best friends...but you CAN be friends.

 

I just reckon the world needs a hell of a lot more tolerance and willingness to accept people for who they are, and openness towards each other...rather than more defensiveness, petty judgements and "us and them" mentality.

 

It IS normal to resist and be frightened of the unknown, of people who look different. I am sure its an inbuilt survival mechanism. However we have the capacity within us to go beyond our basest behaviour, to come out of our narrow minded conditioning and knee jerk reactions. Whether we choose to grow into our better selves or stay in our more basic, primitive selves, is really up to us, once we have seen the choice.

 

:iagree:

Your post is beautifully expressed and very true

[Leighton Academy]

I have no idea how long the other thread is now. I stopped reading at page 19. I completely understand gravitating towards someone who seems to share common interests. However, I don't understand not allowing my children to hang out with someone based on their appearance only. Our family moves around quite often. We're on our sixth state in 10 years. Whether I like it or not, I have quite a bit of experience with making new friends and so do my kids. I have many friends that lived in the same neighborhood but were definitely not in the same social circles. I like them all for the diversity and the wonderful qualities they possess. I don't want everyone to be just like me. Heck, even I know I'm not THAT wonderful, lol. I want friends who challenge me and encourage me to explore different points of view. I shudder to think of the number of amazing people I would have missed out on if I had judged everyone solely on appearances or just being different than me. I mean, hair is just hair and a piercing is just a hole. My boys are young but I hope I can be open-minded when they want to branch out and experiment with their appearance. I think I'll be okay with piercings (except the tongue ring scares me). I had my eyebrow pierced when I was younger. I did it to be different. I did it to stand out. Fortunately, I was not treated differently by my friends. If people avoided me, I never noticed. When I outgrew that phase, I took the ring out and the hole is now closed (although you can see the scar). I'll let my boys have their hair anyway they want (as long as it doesn't stink :tongue_smilie:). As long as their "behavior" doesn't change, I don't care what their hair looks like.

 

I honestly don't get it. If said people were to cut their hair and change their clothes, then suddenly they'd be "different" people and thereby "acceptable"? Like I said before, I do understand gravitating towards others who we perceive to be like us. What I don't understand is shunning someone who is different.

 

And I don't believe that even if I had a problem with my kids getting piercings (when age appropriate) that hanging out with a kid who has them is going to change our family policy or how my kids perceive our family policy. We don't allow our kids to have televisions in their bedrooms. Yes, when they are around certain kids, they ask us if they can have a t.v. in their room. I say no and remind them of the reasons why I don't agree with it. Personally, I believe a tv in the bedroom is much more damaging than a piercing. Just sayin'...:tongue_smilie:.

 

I know I'm being rambly because it's late and I don't understand this. I am sad...for the ones who are hurt by hasty judgments and for the ones who are doing the judging.

[Rosie_0801]

How long do you have to give "knowing" someone to be able to determine they aren't friend material for you without being a bad Christian?

 

That's between you and God. No other person knows what understandings you and God have come to. Not the hair covering/skirt wearing/Christian music and literature only Christians, ,or the dreadlocked types wearing "Jesus is my homeboy" shirts. They might not remember this though.

 

Do you have to try and be buds with everyone you meet? I am not talking being nice-but being friends. Why isn't it ok to just be friendly without looking for a new friend? or is it?

You can't be buddies with everyone you meet. There isn't enough time in the day for the extroverts and there isn't enough emotional oomph in the introverts. Surely you can see the difference between these two scenarios and determine which is the pleasant way to be:

 

1. New person shows up to your church social dressed in a way that makes your eyes bulge. You let them bulge, you let them see you look them up and down, you let them see you sneer and turn your back on them.

 

2. New person shows up to your church social dressed in a way that makes your eyes bulge. They bulge, you can't deny it, but you take a deep breath, head over, smile, say "Hi, I haven't seen you before. Are you new, or haven't I been paying attention? Do you know anyone here? Come and I'll show you where the tea and coffee is, and the bathroom because everyone needs to know that!" And you don't leave them alone until you've found someone else to shepherd them. You eyeball anyone you think is going to act as per scenario one above.

 

When they show up again next time you smile, say hi, invite them to come and help in the kitchen if they show no signs of going to join a conversation. If they ask whether it's ok to dress the way they are, you say "well, you'll make eyes bulge, but that won't kill anyone" and since you've been nice, the third time they show up, their top will probably cover their belly button and they'll be wearing fewer earrings. If, when one of your buddies makes a comment to you, you smile and say that it is lovely to see someone's personality shining so clearly, but agree that it would be nice if it didn't shine quite so brightly. It shows that you agree, but it contains that gentle reminder that even badly dressed persons are deserving of basic hospitality.

 

This person may latch on to you and become annoying, but since your relationship is confined to the church socials, they can't invade your life. If you put up with it, this person may well turn out to be that really useful person you can always rely on to stick around afterwards to put chairs away and sweep the floor. That isn't enough for best buddydom, but it is a contributing person. And besides, they may have been put into your life for a reason, and if you don't learn that lesson, more of 'em might show up! Or they might turn out to be the only person you've ever met who shares your passionate interest in Egyptian music and not only will you be delighted to know them, but your hubby will be delighted too, since he no longer has to hear about it. You will find out over a few hours of cutting sandwiches in the kitchen.

 

Rosie

[weaver_67579]

Would your ILs judge your children if they were not "Conservative enough?"

If your dh had much younger sibling would they prevent them knowing one another?

 

 

 

I do not prescreen based on appearence. I do not look like everyone else just due to my genes, I was mocked a lot for those things. I do think it made me more tolerant.

 

Mil and Fil are no longer that conservative. When DH and I married though-I can tell you I was definitely not the chick they would have chosen for him. Now we get along great once they figured out I can be of different religious conviction-but still be a good moral human being. However, some of the extended family does judge us (and his parents/siblings) for not remaining in that type of church/not wearing a covering/ not wearing only dresses.....Fil would like to keep the grandkids from seeing ex-sil who divorced DH's younger brother-because of the divorce. Good thing he doesn't get to choose who our kids see.

 

I think I am very tolerant. What is making you assume I am intolerant? To whom? Am I supposed to look at every human I meet as someone I am to invest a bunch of time getting to know? That is not practical. I don't have time to befriend every checkout person, cart pusher, member of every group I belong to....the list goes on. If I catch some "spark" of friendship possiblility cool-if not, I let them go without more than a polite how do you do. I do know that some groups are unlikely to have folks with too many similar interests-I don't see the point in knocking myself out trying to meet/befriend someone in that group where no common interest has come up. What is wrong with just casual acquaintance? I can save my effort and time for my current friendships and activities where I may meet more like-minded people with common interests.

[Slartibartfast]

Mil and Fil are no longer that conservative. When DH and I married though-I can tell you I was definitely not the chick they would have chosen for him. Now we get along great once they figured out I can be of different religious conviction-but still be a good moral human being. However, some of the extended family does judge us (and his parents/siblings) for not remaining in that type of church/not wearing a covering/ not wearing only dresses.....Fil would like to keep the grandkids from seeing ex-sil who divorced DH's younger brother-because of the divorce. Good thing he doesn't get to choose who our kids see.

 

I think I am very tolerant. What is making you assume I am intolerant? To whom? Am I supposed to look at every human I meet as someone I am to invest a bunch of time getting to know? That is not practical. I don't have time to befriend every checkout person, cart pusher, member of every group I belong to....the list goes on. If I catch some "spark" of friendship possiblility cool-if not, I let them go without more than a polite how do you do. I do know that some groups are unlikely to have folks with too many similar interests-I don't see the point in knocking myself out trying to meet/befriend someone in that group where no common interest has come up. What is wrong with just casual acquaintance? I can save my effort and time for my current friendships and activities where I may meet more like-minded people with common interests.

 

But would you tell your kids who they could be friends with based on appearence??

 

The point of the other thread was actually about someone's child.

 

It wasn't about adults. That wasn't the topic. If some adult judges some other adult, so what? They are a jerk, who cares? Treating a kid like that is just nasty

 

sorry for any punctuation issues nak

Edited October 5, 2010 by Sis

[Peela]

That's between you and God. No other person knows what understandings you and God have come to. Not the hair covering/skirt wearing/Christian music and literature only Christians, ,or the dreadlocked types wearing "Jesus is my homeboy" shirts. They might not remember this though.

 

You can't be buddies with everyone you meet. There isn't enough time in the day for the extroverts and there isn't enough emotional oomph in the introverts. Surely you can see the difference between these two scenarios and determine which is the pleasant way to be:

 

1. New person shows up to your church social dressed in a way that makes your eyes bulge. You let them bulge, you let them see you look them up and down, you let them see you sneer and turn your back on them.

 

2. New person shows up to your church social dressed in a way that makes your eyes bulge. They bulge, you can't deny it, but you take a deep breath, head over, smile, say "Hi, I haven't seen you before. Are you new, or haven't I been paying attention? Do you know anyone here? Come and I'll show you where the tea and coffee is, and the bathroom because everyone needs to know that!" And you don't leave them alone until you've found someone else to shepherd them. You eyeball anyone you think is going to act as per scenario one above.

 

When they show up again next time you smile, say hi, invite them to come and help in the kitchen if they show no signs of going to join a conversation. If they ask whether it's ok to dress the way they are, you say "well, you'll make eyes bulge, but that won't kill anyone" and since you've been nice, the third time they show up, their top will probably cover their belly button and they'll be wearing fewer earrings. If, when one of your buddies makes a comment to you, you smile and say that it is lovely to see someone's personality shining so clearly, but agree that it would be nice if it didn't shine quite so brightly. It shows that you agree, but it contains that gentle reminder that even badly dressed persons are deserving of basic hospitality.

 

This person may latch on to you and become annoying, but since your relationship is confined to the church socials, they can't invade your life. If you put up with it, this person may well turn out to be that really useful person you can always rely on to stick around afterwards to put chairs away and sweep the floor. That isn't enough for best buddydom, but it is a contributing person. And besides, they may have been put into your life for a reason, and if you don't learn that lesson, more of 'em might show up! Or they might turn out to be the only person you've ever met who shares your passionate interest in Egyptian music and not only will you be delighted to know them, but your hubby will be delighted too, since he no longer has to hear about it. You will find out over a few hours of cutting sandwiches in the kitchen.

 

Rosie

 

Onya Rosie !

[Slartibartfast]

Rosie, you sound very wise. :)

[weaver_67579]

But would you tell your kids who they could be friends with based on appearence??

 

The point of the other thread was actually about someone's child.

 

It wasn't about adults. That wasn't the topic. If some adult judges some other adult, so what? They are a jerk, who cares? Treating a kid like that is just nasty

 

sorry for any punctuation issues nak

 

Gang tatoos and such-yep. I would consider that a safety issue. Other than that-not likely. I'm pretty live and let live about those kinds of things. I may jazz a kid about stuff-but not in a mean way. For instance there was a kid where I worked that always had his pants hanging off his rear with the undies showing-Us adults teased him a lot for that "style"

 

I know it was about a teen. I just also think the kid is learning a real life lesson. If you want to choose to dress, haircut, pierce....your way out of the mainstream of your peer group (church, school, homeschool group...whatever) you have to learn to expect that some will not accept you for it. Is it right? It is reality. That is what I tell Dd-12. Some of those things may seem cool-but may not be in your best interest in the future-when trying to fit in in certain circles, when trying to find a job-particularly a professional one,... Because of that-I would not be cool with my minor child getting any tats, piercings other than one or two in each ear....Once adult-they live with the choice and consequence if they choose. This doesn't mean I am unsympathetic towards the kid's unhappiness

[Mrs Mungo]

The thread isn't about an adult, the thread is about a teen.

 

I don't care if people judge me on my looks, I am sure many do (and the people who do that I don't care to know) but the person being treated bad by ADULTS is not their peer, he is a teenager. A teen who belongs to a family that shares their faith.

 

We should be above such things

 

I think there is a difference between not expecting somebody to be your bosom buddy (OK) and deciding that somebody is Bad (not OK).

 

How do "druggies" dress and wear their hair?

 

I have no idea how long the other thread is now. I stopped reading at page 19. I completely understand gravitating towards someone who seems to share common interests. However, I don't understand not allowing my children to hang out with someone based on their appearance only.

 

:iagree:with all of the above.

 

I know it was about a teen. I just also think the kid is learning a real life lesson. If you want to choose to dress, haircut, pierce....your way out of the mainstream of your peer group (church, school, homeschool group...whatever) you have to learn to expect that some will not accept you for it. Is it right? It is reality. That is what I tell Dd-12. Some of those things may seem cool-but may not be in your best interest in the future-when trying to fit in in certain circles, when trying to find a job-particularly a professional one,... Because of that-I would not be cool with my minor child getting any tats, piercings other than one or two in each ear....Once adult-they live with the choice and consequence if they choose. This doesn't mean I am unsympathetic towards the kid's unhappiness

 

Again, just because it's a reality that people will judge you based upon your appearance, that doesn't make it right in all cases. Having long bangs isn't a reason I would decide a kid was a bad influence upon my dd and forbid the relationship. I think that's ridiculous.

[TravelingChris]

Jeanette is making the point I made in the previous thread. We don't have time or energy to make everyone our friend.

 

With regard to the boy referenced in the other thread, there was more than his appearance. The Mom said that he likes heavy metal. But even more to the point, while some people do dress and style themselves in a style different than their beliefs and lifestyle appear, most don't. We tend to dress and style ourselves much like our small niche in society. For adults, there is often an unspoken rule. For kids and teens, there are often written rules. Does this make everyone who wears a certain style someone you like? No, of course not. But that also doesn't mean that my kids are likely to like a teen who is seemingly in a rebellious faze. Doesn't mean that twenty years from now when such youth turns into a conservatively dressed conservative they might not talk. But now, not likely.

 

Actually, as Jeannette said, while I believe that the Bible commands us to treat others with respect and kindness, I don't think it mandates friendship with people with whom you don't have things in common.

 

I like what Rosie said that you should go out of your comfort zone and greet those who are out of place in your church by their dress and style. I normally try to do that. However, in general, I am not one who believes that increasing toleration is good. I am a political conservative and one of the problems in society that I see is increased toleration of behavior (not of ethnicity or anything like that for which I see toleration as a commandment). I wish our society did not tolerate divorce and illegitimacy to the level they do. NO, it doesn't mean I think people should be shunned or that I think all divorces are unjustified. But I do think that children and society in general is harmed by those things in the aggregate. Studies show that children who grow up without two parents in the home are much more likely to have all types of serious problems down the road- depression, criminal behavior, etc, etc. So, no, I don't think that tolerance is the highest value or even such an important value.

[Peela]

1

Edited October 5, 2010 by Peela

[Pamela H in Texas]

I agree that people won't be friends with everyone and that you aren't going to take time to get to know each person intimately in order to decide whether to be friends. People DO go somewhat based off of looks. Nothing the OP said sounded like any huge alarm to me, but I can see how it may be to others. Someone may think that my own thoughts are judgmental.

 

I think the REAL issue is that EVERY person, regardless, deserves respect. It sounds as if the OP's son may not be getting even basic respect. Additionally, there are some people you have less opportunity to know than others. In regards to the OP, these aren't people FAR removed, but people who DO have the opportunity to get to know him.

 

We recently (last week!) moved into a rent house in an area I'm not particularly thrilled about. I have judged somewhat. Anyway, the house behind us has two fosterkids, one being a 15yo boy. I heard his basic story when I moved in. I *could* have judged him based on that. I'm glad I didn't though. I really like this kid! And I like the difference in my son for knowing him already!

 

Anyway, so I guess I am inbetween. I think we do naturally judge and even have to. And I think we really need to temper that and remember our manners.

 

Maybe part of the thing for us is that with our religion, we talk to anyone and everyone. And when people visit, they often have this or that about them. Well, honestly, *I* have this and that about ME. Whether it's being a little gruff or needy or hairy or less reverent or or or....ain't nobody perfect!

 

Well, and this brings up another thought though. Even though we sometimes judge, often to protect ourselves, sometimes we're WRONG. I avoided, to some degree, this one woman because something she did really upset me. Just before we left home, I had an opportunity to get to know her better. I wish I had tried harder to get past myself sooner! I really think we could have been good friends all along!

 

But this is where *I* am now, to try to get over myself. Again, no one is perfect and just like I won't do it perfectly, someone else may be where I was a few years ago and just not be ready. They, though, like me, probably are missing out because of it though.

Edited October 5, 2010 by 2J5M9K

[Mama Geek]

I am not going to be friends with everyone that I come across and yes sometimes that decision is made in a split second and sometime that decision is made over weeks, months or even years. I also will not allow my child to be friends with everyone that they come across. Parents have a responsibility to set the standards for what is acceptable to their family.

 

After rereading the comments by the op in the other thread, I am still assuming that the son has not been asked to leave the church. (Maybe that is an incorrect assumption.) That would be a much different scenario.

 

The mother had discussed with the son that some of the decisions would likely cause negative consequences. They both knew that some people would not approve of these choices, yet they make them anyway. They are free to make any choices that they want to as long as it is legal...but others are free to say these are bad choices and we don't find it suitable for our children to be friends with them because of it. Why be mad at people (especially Christians in this case) for having their standards for their families?

 

I would expect that people would be polite and friendly to people at church. I would expect that people would pray with him, teach him, and help him out when needed. That doesn't mean that they will allow him to hang out with their kids on a Saturday afternoon to play video games or listen to music.

[Parrothead]

 

I think I am very tolerant. What is making you assume I am intolerant? To whom? Am I supposed to look at every human I meet as someone I am to invest a bunch of time getting to know? That is not practical. I don't have time to befriend every checkout person, cart pusher, member of every group I belong to....the list goes on. If I catch some "spark" of friendship possiblility cool-if not, I let them go without more than a polite how do you do. I do know that some groups are unlikely to have folks with too many similar interests-I don't see the point in knocking myself out trying to meet/befriend someone in that group where no common interest has come up. What is wrong with just casual acquaintance? I can save my effort and time for my current friendships and activities where I may meet more like-minded people with common interests.

How much is a lot of time to you? If you are at a social event do you make time to walk around and greet each person you know, make 3-5 minutes of small talk with people you are introduced to and acknowledge the wall-flower to make sure he/she has something to drink? Possibly even introducing said wall-flower to someone you know will make them feel comfortable?

 

If you only goal at said social event is to hang with your best bud for two hours why are you there? I thought the idea behind a social gathering was to meet new people and broaden one's horizons.

 

There is nothing wrong with a casual acquaintance. There is something wrong with being rude simply because you don't have the time or inclination to acknowledge another's existence because they are slightly or wholly different. If you do not want to make the effort at social events, maybe you should rethink why you are going.

 

I think the point everyone is trying to make is that you don't know what will happen if you don't make the effort. Where would you be if you hadn't made the effort and initialized the conversation with your friend with the dogs?

 

You do not have to be best buds with the clerk at the market but a smile and a "have a nice day" go a long way. A smile and a nod to the unusually dressed person on the bus acknowledges her existence. It does not cost you much in time or effort, but you may have been the nicest person she has met that day.

 

It boils down to not being rude to new people no matter how they look or what religion, nationality or human tribe they belong to. Be open to people and show simple kindness to people of all ages. And if you are in a group social setting, work the room. You have no idea who God may put before you.

[RoughCollie]

This reminds me of the time DH took our dog to the groomer. I didn't warn him ahead of time about what to expect as a kind of practical joke because I knew DH would be appalled but polite. The groomer was totally pierced, mohawked, and had blue or green hair.

 

DH left the dog there and came rushing home, as upset as I've ever seen him about having left the dog with this Strange Person. He wanted me to rescue the dog!

 

Mind you, our groomer, odd as he looked, is one of the best people I have ever met. Although one can't tell by his appearance, he is friendly, good-hearted, a man of the highest integrity, well-educated and well-traveled, and is conservative in his views. He is an all around great guy who loves his mother and has many, many friends. Our dog loved him.

 

DH came around and when we went out of town for a couple of weeks to find a place to live in PA, the groomer stayed at our house with the dog.

Edited October 5, 2010 by RoughCollie

[weaver_67579]

How much is a lot of time to you? If you are at a social event do you make time to walk around and greet each person you know, make 3-5 minutes of small talk with people you are introduced to and acknowledge the wall-flower to make sure he/she has something to drink? Possibly even introducing said wall-flower to someone you know will make them feel comfortable?

 

I am an introvert. Social events such as you mentioned are torture for me. I am ususally the wallflower and don't mind being so. Usually, I will just avoid such events.

 

If you only goal at said social event is to hang with your best bud for two hours why are you there? I thought the idea behind a social gathering was to meet new people and broaden one's horizons.

 

I would likely be there because one of said best buds invited me or to take the kids.... It would not likely be to hang with a bunch of complete strangers since that is very stressful for me.

 

There is nothing wrong with a casual acquaintance. There is something wrong with being rude simply because you don't have the time or inclination to acknowledge another's existence because they are slightly or wholly different. If you do not want to make the effort at social events, maybe you should rethink why you are going.

 

That is what I don't get-Why is it rude to not go out of your way to befriend people? Who said anything about not acknowledging someone's existence? Hi or Have a nice day or Nice party....or whatever are nice. Not everyone is really social-that does not mean they are going out of their way to be rude. And yes-sometimes I just don't have the time. Why does it make me bad to have to run off and chase the toddler and entertain her instead of making sure every person in a group gets some time with me-uh like they would want to anyway. I in no way think I am all that-where people are just dying to meet me. Many of my social events now and days are attended for the kids-homeschool group stuff. I would not be going if I did not think it was good for them-and sure woudn't attend on my own without them.

 

I think the point everyone is trying to make is that you don't know what will happen if you don't make the effort. Where would you be if you hadn't made the effort and initialized the conversation with your friend with the dogs?

 

Yes I get that-my point is that I can't do that with everyone-and shouldn't be made to feel bad because I don't have meaningful conversations with most everyone I ever meet. It was obvious from the start that my friend and I had something in common-something to talk about. I can and do make the effort where I see some hope of common interest/personality....but I am just nice and polite with those that I don't.

 

You do not have to be best buds with the clerk at the market but a smile and a "have a nice day" go a long way. A smile and a nod to the unusually dressed person on the bus acknowledges her existence. It does not cost you much in time or effort, but you may have been the nicest person she has met that dayIt boils down to not being rude to new people no matter how they look or what religion, nationality or human tribe they belong to. Be open to people and show simple kindness to people of all ages. And if you are in a group social setting, work the room. You have no idea who God may put before you

 

Is there an assumption that I am not nice to people I meet? Did I say I dissed folks or try to be rude? I will admit that I am often in my own head and don't even notice what is going around other than the kids. I in no way go out of my way to be rude and take a bit of offense that it seems I may be being accused of such. I am just not a chatty person and don't do small talk easily or well. It is very draining and frankly-stressful and seems kind of pointless most of the time. I say different strokes for different folks. If you are a social butterfly-more power-work it. I'm not. I will not purposly be rude-but don't expect me to work the room either-not my thing.

[VBoulden]

I have some things to add. I don't think I will actually answer your question directly... but what you said got me to thinking and I'd like to share my own experience, perhaps to add something significant to this conversation... It's a good conversation. :D;)

 

I used to pre-judge people alot more than I do now. I am not sure what happened in my life that caused me to change my behavior. I think I started by reaching out to my neighbors, as in, the people who live right across the street from me and right next door. I was determined to build relationships with my neighbors when we moved into this house because well, I thought we would be here for thirty years and it was my own best interest to know them. And it also seemed so weird and unkind to go outside, see each other, and act like the other wasn't even there. After talking to them more and more and really getting to know them, that caused something in my heart to soften towards people and that softness started to affect how I treated other people I met, etc. So, I guess I started to think that "Love your neighbor as yourself" was a lot more literal than most people take it. ;)

 

When I still pre-judged people, I had alot less friends, naturally;), and they were only Christians who went to the same church as me. I avoided groups of people who I knew would have less Christians in them because I hated being around people who didn't love Jesus. And, when I had to be in groups like that, I hardly ever engaged in conversations with people and if I did, it was only to be seen as polite not to actually be polite and get to know someone... if that makes any sense...

 

At that point, it will come as no surprise to you that I had NO platform to share to gospel because everyone I was in a real relationship with already knew Christ. I depended on tracts to share the good news. Not that tracts are bad, but I think they are often used by unloving people who just want to fulfill their obligation and not really spend time caring and investing in someone. At least, that is how it was for me...

 

Now that I look at everyone with a softer heart... I have so many friends it's hard to count! Many of them aren't Christians, but we laugh at each other and serve each other and enjoy each other's kids. I have friends in my home school group (that isn't exclusively Christian), at work, in my neighborhood, at the supermarket, on my kid's teams... These people are legitimately friends and whether or not they come to Christ, they will still be my friends. I truly respect them even though they aren't Christians.

 

This was also a big change, by the way... being able to respect people who disagreed with me. Before, it was hard for me to respect people who didn't share my views on God and the Bible. But, now that I have spent time with people who aren't saved, I see that some of them are great parents, have great marriages, are great workers, are very honest, dependable, gracious, etc.

 

Now, I'm not saying they don't need Christ to go to heaven or to be righteous before God, but I am just saying I think they deserve my respect and esteem NOW, not once they agree with me about Jesus and all my views about what the Bible teaches.

 

My best friends are Christians... I think that goes without saying. But, some of them are actually a little obnoxious compared to my non-Christian friends ;). But, it's interesting, when Christians come to dinner, no matter how annoying they are, my husband and I actually notice how our fellowship goes deeper than the surface. We have non-Christians over who we get along with better because our personalities are the same, but they don't have the Holy Spirit, so the communion only goes so far... it's kind of weird and really cool all at the same time.

 

Anyway, I am not sure if anything I said here will even add to the conversation, but you got me to thinking about my own experience and that's what I had to share. ;)

[Parrothead]

I am an introvert. Social events such as you mentioned are torture for me. I am ususally the wallflower and don't mind being so. Usually, I will just avoid such events.

Okay. I agree if you are that uncomfortable maybe it is best not to attend.

 

 

I would likely be there because one of said best buds invited me or to take the kids.... It would not likely be to hang with a bunch of complete strangers since that is very stressful for me.

Do you just stand (or sit) with your bud without interacting with other people there?

 

 

That is what I don't get-Why is it rude to not go out of your way to befriend people? Who said anything about not acknowledging someone's existence? Hi or Have a nice day or Nice party....or whatever are nice. Not everyone is really social-that does not mean they are going out of their way to be rude. And yes-sometimes I just don't have the time. Why does it make me bad to have to run off and chase the toddler and entertain her instead of making sure every person in a group gets some time with me-uh like they would want to anyway. I in no way think I am all that-where people are just dying to meet me. Many of my social events now and days are attended for the kids-homeschool group stuff. I would not be going if I did not think it was good for them-and sure woudn't attend on my own without them.

Why would you not want to befriend people? Maybe your personal definition of "befriend" is different than others.

 

Acknowledging a person's existance, being polite, and a quick smile do not take much time. How can you not have the time to say "hello" to each person you meet when you take a walk. That is being friendly and all that is expected. Six months of meeting the same person with a smile and hello may yield a new friend.

 

One is not expected to bare one's soul to each person one meets. That is quite distasteful. Unfortunately it has become quite common.

 

You are not wrong to chase a toddler and entertain her at gatherings you bring her to, but couldn't you scoop her up and say "hello, how do you do" to any new people she runs at? How is that simple sentence taking too much of your time?

 

 

Yes I get that-my point is that I can't do that with everyone-and shouldn't be made to feel bad because I don't have meaningful conversations with most everyone I ever meet. It was obvious from the start that my friend and I had something in common-something to talk about. I can and do make the effort where I see some hope of common interest/personality....but I am just nice and polite with those that I don't.

No, you don't have to have meaningful conversations with everyone you meet. That can not be expected of anyone. And just as it is rude of one not to make an effort (no matter how small an effort) it is rude of others to make one feel bad for not making the effort.

 

One can find at least one thing in common with most anyone one meets. The sunny sky, the fact that both are women (or men if that is is the case), being married, having kids, travel. Brush up on topics of conversation.

 

 

Is there an assumption that I am not nice to people I meet? Did I say I dissed folks or try to be rude? I will admit that I am often in my own head and don't even notice what is going around other than the kids. I in no way go out of my way to be rude and take a bit of offense that it seems I may be being accused of such. I am just not a chatty person and don't do small talk easily or well. It is very draining and frankly-stressful and seems kind of pointless most of the time. I say different strokes for different folks. If you are a social butterfly-more power-work it. I'm not. I will not purposly be rude-but don't expect me to work the room either-not my thing.

No, you did not say that you are not nice to people you meet. But it comes across that way because you are complaining about the time it takes to befriend another. If you are willing to open yourself to it, you can make a friend in just a few seconds.

 

I am by no means a social butterfly. I have not left my house in 3 days and have not received a phone call in longer. This is the longest conversation I've had with anyone other than my dh or dd in quite some time. But I can not talk you into seeing the point of small talk. Or extending your comfort zone.

 

I've been told that my shyness comes across as rudeness. Actually uppity is the word that has been used most. Since I've been made aware of it, I try harder to make sure I am not seen as uppity/rude.

 

 

[Meriwether]

I think there is a world of difference between going about your day and deciding to give someone a call, stopping to chat with a neighbor as you walk past, or striking up a casual conversation at the park while the kids play (choosing those interactions based on whatever criteria you'd like), and the following:

 

being in a small group of people and everyone ignoring one person or family

 

having a birthday party and inviting everyone except one or two kids

 

being rude to someone you come into casual contact with

[justamouse]

I enjoy the nose piercings of the brave as much as I enjoy the head coverings of the Amish. I loved the Osbornes. I love the Duggars. It's *all* wonderful to me. I am a most 'regular'-looking person. I told my husband today, "I think I could write out a check for a million dollars over my total at the supermarket and nobody would bother asking me for an ID."

 

I lovelovelovelovelove the variety.

 

 

this is me. People amaze me. I love looking at them, watching them, I love all different colors and different dress. I think all people are amazingly beautiful and wonderfully made. They make me in awe of God.

 

I'm a total introvert, too, but it hurts me to think that my actions of being an introvert hurt other people and I go out of my way to make others feel comfortable. Sometimes I extend myself WAY too much, to the point of a meltdown, but over the years I've learned where I can stretch my boundaries and where I can't.

Edited October 5, 2010 by justamouse

[Nakia]

I enjoy the nose piercings of the brave as much as I enjoy the head coverings of the Amish. I loved the Osbornes. I love the Duggars. It's *all* wonderful to me. I am a most 'regular'-looking person. I told my husband today, "I think I could write out a check for a million dollars over my total at the supermarket and nobody would bother asking me for an ID."

 

I lovelovelovelovelove the variety.

 

Me too! Except I guess I'm not so regular looking. I have tattoos and a nose ring. Luckily it's not big deal to those who love me, and get this: I have actually made new friends, at church, since I got my visible tattoo and my nose ring. Wonders never cease. :rolleyes:

[mommaduck]

I live somewhere in proximity to you compared to most here. My husband used to work in an anabaptist woodshop. They had NO problem dealing with people that had tattoos, piercings, or spoke boisterously (in fact, Amish have quite a sense of humour). They weren't part of their culture and they didn't expect them to act like they were. Therefore, I think your husband is being overly cautious to use a tattoo or piercing as a sign to/not to hire.

 

I'm a walking contradiction to most anabaptists. I've had conservative mennonite girls talk about me, in front of me, in PA dutch while pointing (was so tempted to lecture them on rudeness). I've had Amish women smile and nod at me in greeting. I've had Beachy just go about their business as I was neither here nor there to them. Become friends with Jo Wengers. And I've had Charity glare at me, turn on their heel, and stomp away. I wear modern, but modest skirts and tops, dangly or hoop earrings, my cross gifted at my chrismation, and bright and variously tied headcoverings....and makeup. I'm not them, I'm not trying to impress them. I've done business with them, rented from them, and lived next door to them.

 

btw, many of my friends don't look anything like me. In fact, some of them, you'd be shocked that we hang around each other, if you were going by looks. One is a tattoo'd, smoking, working mama that loves motorcycles...we play cards together and spend time as families together, gone on vacation together, housesat, cleaned each others houses, etc.

Edited October 5, 2010 by mommaduck

[Nakia]

Birds of a feather flock together PPL. That is LIFE! I think it's uber strange to have distracting piercings on your face or whatever. I don't like looking at them. The wig me out. I don't usually think they are pretty or artistic. Most the time, I think they are UGLY and FREAKY. I'll love ya, but I don't have to hang with you and be your best friend. Friendly. YES. Loving. YES. Friends. NO. If I want to watch ppl that look like they came from a horror movie, then I'd rent one. I never would. If you want to look a certain way (SCARY) then don't expect everyone to want to look at your scary face!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

 

 

So you think people with facial piercings are strange, ugly, freaky, scary, and look like they just stepped out of a horror film, but you love them? Interesting...

[RhondaM.]

This is not in response to anything anyone has said)

 

I just have to say that for 15 years I was a very conservative christian. While I never shunned anybody I did try to avoid anyone that not conservative.

 

Anything other than conservative was loudly preached against in my church. I risked being questioned (by pastor and friends) if I or my family hung out with certain types. (We had a dress code...no make up or uncut hair or pants on ladies)

 

Then my kids turned into teens. They never fit in w/ the other kids at church. Probably because we homeschooled. The teens at church fell into one of two groups....those that were rebellious (and those we avoided) and those that were soooooo perfect that even my kids were considered rebellious.

 

If you were rebellious you risked being preached about (names may or may not be mentioned) from the pulpit. For instance...if you had links to something other that religious music on your myspace (or whatever group) you might get preached about from the pulpit. And everyone at church would be clapping and loudly agreeing with the pastor who was pounding the pulpit over how sinful it all was.

 

We ended up leaving this church...which was not easy. It was not easy because we ONLY had friends and connections from our church. When we left, we left all of our friends too.

 

But then...something really cool happened...

 

My oldest brought home this charming little girl he met. She was tiny and smart and had a cute little nose ring and lovely blue hair. Then he brought home some really polite young men with long hair and piercings in their lips and gauges in their ears....and yes, my eyes did bulge....for awhile.

 

And now....

I love my kids friends. They are some of the nicest kids I have ever met. I never would have thunk it. :-)

I am so very glad that my eyes were opened to the fact that a nose ring does not make someone evil or bad! And they are REAL. They are themselves...or trying to find out who they are....just like my own teens. Nothing better, nothing worse...just young people growing up. And very accepting of my kids.

 

I absolutely do not miss this particular conservative crowd who was soooo worried about what other people would say if their teens befriended this person or that person. It was peer pressure for adults. Felt like highschool all over again.

 

Do I want my kids with holes in their faces? Nooooo...because I feel it will be harder for them to get good jobs...I know appearances do matter. And I don't want them to do something now that they might regret later. My oldest (almost 18) has a gauge in his ear...oops...actually he has one in both ears now. Am I real happy about that. Nope. Is this the hill I want to die on? Nope. Will he be shunned by conservative christians simply because of his gauges. Probably. Will I allow him to live here if he puts more holes in his face? Um...yes.

 

I agree that we do not have enough time in a day to befriend everyone. And of course most people (myself included) tend to befriend people most like themselves.

 

BUT...it does makes it hard to befriend anyone who is different when you have the peer pressure that is at some churches....where they literally preach from the pulpit that you are NOT to befriend certain types or risk 'going to hell right along with them' (Or course at the church I attended everyone was going to hell but us. We were practically going to have heaven all to ourselves.)

 

I know this is not the case in all conservative Christian groups, but I know it is true in others. As I lived it. Thank goodness I don't live it anymore. Being holier than thou wasted so many of my years.

 

Sorry...I'm very tired and sick with a cold....so this may not have come out right. Hope I haven't offended anyone. I did that for too many years already.

RhondaM.

[msjones]

My older son likes to push the boundaries with his clothes and hair. We've told him that if he crosses society's 'line' he needs to be prepared for some disapproval and criticism -- and probably some admiration, too.

 

When you swim upstream it can be rewarding, but also a little lonely. (As homeschoolers, I'm sure most of us are very aware of that.)

 

When you dress to stand out from the crowd, you'll be standing out (and maybe away) from the crowd -- and that has some ramifications. We've told him he can't come home angry and surprised if people don't stand back and admire his alternative approach.

 

Just my two cents...

[justamouse]

When I think of my dearest friend -- a Hutterite woman -- and I think of how different we are, I am glad that she did not look at me and decide I wasn't worth wasting her time on. I am glad that I didn't think she wasn't worth wasting my time on. I wouldn't want to think of my life now without her in it. She's such a beautiful soul in my life.

 

Not everyone lets appearances dictate their relationships. Some people choose, instead, to see the heart of a person. That is never a waste of time. People are never a waste of time.

 

Audry, that is the most beautiful post. (Two of my dearest friends are wiccan, and I totally understand. I adore them.)

 

I suspect that for most people, the more sheltered and narrow a circle they actually mingle within...and the stronger the judgements they have of those outside their range of experience....the more closed and narrow minded they become as they get older. Then they become like the older, judgemental people they might once have not liked so much when they were younger, because they didnt feel understood or valued by them.

 

Unless one consciously chooses to become aware of and overcome one's innate and culturally indoctrinated conditioning such as prejudices against piercings...and deliberately see the person beneath...one just gets to live in that narrow and superficial world- and then defend one's isolationist policy!

 

Once someone you really, reallylove gets a piercing, or a tattoo, or gets a mohawk or declares their homosexuality, or you are thrown into a social situaition where you get to see the deep soul of a person who you otherwise judged...you get the opportunity to choose to just love them and enjoy them and recognise your common humanity- and that could be a street hobo or a movie star going through rehab or your own child. You can be friends, too...doesnt mean you arent smart about your boundaries, doesnt mean you will be best friends...but you CAN be friends.

 

I just reckon the world needs a hell of a lot more tolerance and willingness to accept people for who they are, and openness towards each other...rather than more defensiveness, petty judgements and "us and them" mentality.

 

It IS normal to resist and be frightened of the unknown, of people who look different. I am sure its an inbuilt survival mechanism. However we have the capacity within us to go beyond our basest behaviour, to come out of our narrow minded conditioning and knee jerk reactions. Whether we choose to grow into our better selves or stay in our more basic, primitive selves, is really up to us, once we have seen the choice.

 

Amen. That was so brilliantly put, I wish I wrote it myself.

 

That's between you and God. No other person knows what understandings you and God have come to. Not the hair covering/skirt wearing/Christian music and literature only Christians, ,or the dreadlocked types wearing "Jesus is my homeboy" shirts. They might not remember this though.

 

You can't be buddies with everyone you meet. There isn't enough time in the day for the extroverts and there isn't enough emotional oomph in the introverts. Surely you can see the difference between these two scenarios and determine which is the pleasant way to be:

 

1. New person shows up to your church social dressed in a way that makes your eyes bulge. You let them bulge, you let them see you look them up and down, you let them see you sneer and turn your back on them.

 

2. New person shows up to your church social dressed in a way that makes your eyes bulge. They bulge, you can't deny it, but you take a deep breath, head over, smile, say "Hi, I haven't seen you before. Are you new, or haven't I been paying attention? Do you know anyone here? Come and I'll show you where the tea and coffee is, and the bathroom because everyone needs to know that!" And you don't leave them alone until you've found someone else to shepherd them. You eyeball anyone you think is going to act as per scenario one above.

 

When they show up again next time you smile, say hi, invite them to come and help in the kitchen if they show no signs of going to join a conversation. If they ask whether it's ok to dress the way they are, you say "well, you'll make eyes bulge, but that won't kill anyone" and since you've been nice, the third time they show up, their top will probably cover their belly button and they'll be wearing fewer earrings. If, when one of your buddies makes a comment to you, you smile and say that it is lovely to see someone's personality shining so clearly, but agree that it would be nice if it didn't shine quite so brightly. It shows that you agree, but it contains that gentle reminder that even badly dressed persons are deserving of basic hospitality.

 

This person may latch on to you and become annoying, but since your relationship is confined to the church socials, they can't invade your life. If you put up with it, this person may well turn out to be that really useful person you can always rely on to stick around afterwards to put chairs away and sweep the floor. That isn't enough for best buddydom, but it is a contributing person. And besides, they may have been put into your life for a reason, and if you don't learn that lesson, more of 'em might show up! Or they might turn out to be the only person you've ever met who shares your passionate interest in Egyptian music and not only will you be delighted to know them, but your hubby will be delighted too, since he no longer has to hear about it. You will find out over a few hours of cutting sandwiches in the kitchen.

 

Rosie

 

Rosie is all things wise.

 

I have some things to add. I don't think I will actually answer your question directly... but what you said got me to thinking and I'd like to share my own experience, perhaps to add something significant to this conversation... It's a good conversation. :D;)

 

I used to pre-judge people alot more than I do now. I am not sure what happened in my life that caused me to change my behavior. I think I started by reaching out to my neighbors, as in, the people who live right across the street from me and right next door. I was determined to build relationships with my neighbors when we moved into this house because well, I thought we would be here for thirty years and it was my own best interest to know them. And it also seemed so weird and unkind to go outside, see each other, and act like the other wasn't even there. After talking to them more and more and really getting to know them, that caused something in my heart to soften towards people and that softness started to affect how I treated other people I met, etc. So, I guess I started to think that "Love your neighbor as yourself" was a lot more literal than most people take it. ;)

 

 

...just...amen. I basically had the same journey as a Christian, but because I'm of the mud race :D, I was always more open to differences of appearance.

[RhondaM.]

I suspect that for most people, the more sheltered and narrow a circle they actually mingle within...and the stronger the judgements they have of those outside their range of experience....the more closed and narrow minded they become as they get older. Then they become like the older, judgemental people they might once have not liked so much when they were younger, because they didnt feel understood or valued by them.

 

Unless one consciously chooses to become aware of and overcome one's innate and culturally indoctrinated conditioning such as prejudices against piercings...and deliberately see the person beneath...one just gets to live in that narrow and superficial world- and then defend one's isolationist policy!

 

Once someone you really, reallylove gets a piercing, or a tattoo, or gets a mohawk or declares their homosexuality, or you are thrown into a social situaition where you get to see the deep soul of a person who you otherwise judged...you get the opportunity to choose to just love them and enjoy them and recognise your common humanity- and that could be a street hobo or a movie star going through rehab or your own child. You can be friends, too...doesnt mean you arent smart about your boundaries, doesnt mean you will be best friends...but you CAN be friends.

 

I just reckon the world needs a hell of a lot more tolerance and willingness to accept people for who they are, and openness towards each other...rather than more defensiveness, petty judgements and "us and them" mentality.

 

It IS normal to resist and be frightened of the unknown, of people who look different. I am sure its an inbuilt survival mechanism. However we have the capacity within us to go beyond our basest behaviour, to come out of our narrow minded conditioning and knee jerk reactions. Whether we choose to grow into our better selves or stay in our more basic, primitive selves, is really up to us, once we have seen the choice.

 

Wow! Yes, exactly. I so very much agree.

 

RhondaM.