Christ as the *only* path to salvation (another s/o of Joanne's thread)

[WishboneDawn]

:iagree:

 

i'll take it a step further and say that i don't understand the belief that man needs 'salvation' through christ or any other thing outside himself. being human is wonderful and unique...to constantly fight against one's human nature is insanity and cripples personal power in my opinion.

 

This had me thinking.

 

I don't think whether a non-Christian gets into heaven is the important bit. Frankly, why would a non-Christian want to? They don't believe in it and likely have some alternate view of the afterlife or lack of it. In a Christian frame of reference, God gave us free will. Why would he honour it in life by letting us choose paths of different or no faiths only to pull out the rug after death and shuffle all the good folk off to heaven regardless of their belief?

 

I think an honourable God wouldn't do that.

 

EDIT: I mean I think only in the most present tense. What I think about this will likely change by midnight. :)

But I don't think a good God would shuffle good people off to hell for not believing in him or accepting Jesus either.

[Quiver0f10]

The Bible clearly states that Jesus is the only way to heaven. If all we had to do is feel good or drawn to moral things then why did Jesus come to the earth to die for our sins? If you don't believe here, why would God give you a chance to accept Christ after you die? I don't understand this line of reasoning. It seems like you are trying to fit God and the message of salvation into your own little box.

 

We are all sinners. We have all done things wrong. Sin separates us from God. Jesus came to shed His holy, innocent blood to pay for those sins. But we have to accept that gift. If you don't then when you die, you will go to hell. The Bible is very clear on that. I am not trying to be harsh, but that is the reality of it.

 

I do not believe that infants/young children/mentally incapacitated people will go to hell. I believe that there is an age of accountability that is different for each individual. After you come to the point that you understand that you are a sinner and fully understand the difference between right and wrong, then you need to make a choice. If you do not make the choice FOR Christ, then you have chosen to reject Him. Those who reject Him will not be welcome into heaven.

 

I know this is not what you want to believe, but God is a God of justice. He is also a God of mercy, which is why He sent His only Son into the world to save the world.

 

John 3:16 says "For God so loved the world, that he sent His only begotten Son that whosoever believeth in Him, should not perish, but have everlasting life."

 

A choice must be made. If you choose to do nothing, you have still chosen.

 

Wonderful post!

[Joanne]

I am concerned. There are a lot of 'thinkers' trying to come to their own conclusion of what is meant by salvation. As much as I try to figure it out on my own...I can not. I go to the one and only source...the Word of God.

 

1 Thessalonians 5:21: "Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.''

 

I say judge those by their fruits as Jesus suggested. The more one grows 'in Christ' or in a relationship with Him, the more you will find the fruits of the spirit..

 

to question man is to in a round about way doubt the Word of God, it is pretty much ALL in there...if I ask men a question, I'll get 400 responses..like throwing darts at the board..but if I ask God...the darts hit the bullseye everytime...

 

Tara

 

This answer is only valid if you embrace the typical perspective on the Christian bible and idea of salvation.

 

For those who hold a less scripted view, it might not resonate as true though clearly you'll think it's true for us as well.

[HRAAB]

This is basically what I choose to believe. I am learning. For me this is very sensitive. My ds just passed away in May at the age of 21. Most of you know that here. When he was a little boy, we took him to church some. My husband and I were young - very young when we had him. 16 and 17. We did not know what we believed to pass any of that to him. I always talked about Jesus, but I never really believed the way I do now. That didn't happen until my sister-in-law was murdered by her adopted son. It broke me and I found comfort in faith. I still had a long road ahead of me to get to where I am now. Some of it I did share with my ds. There were times when I talked to him about Jesus. His dad gave him a bible that had flames on the front because when he saw it he knew it was for him. That was not a typical action for my dh. He doesn't attend church, preach in any way, but he does believe. A few months before my ds died, I was talking to him about Jesus. He said to me that he believed in God, he was just really not sure about all the rest of the things. He was confused. He asked me if there was a good and loving God, then how come his Aunt Debi was murdered when she was the kindest, Christian woman he knew. He also asked about all the horrible things he saw in Iraq. I told him I didn't have the answers, but I just believed. I also told him I understood his confusion because I, too, had been confused at that age. I told him that if he opened his mind and heart that in time he would find his faith. I had no idea his life would be so short when I said it. So, when he died, I worried. You know you don't stop worrying about your kids even when they are dead. Strange how that works. I had my niece, who is a well meaning Christian tell me that HOPEFULLY I would see him again because she knew he wasn't all that sure what he believed. So, therefore, she is not sure he is in heaven. At one of my lowest moment, I sobbed to my dh that I was terrified that our ds was in hell. He told me that if he was indeed in hell, then he would go there with him. I know that sound horrible, but if I have to think the my child - a good, decent 21 year old that did anything for anyone, but wasn't sure exactly what to believe - is in hell then I want no part of the heaven that waits for me for believing in Jesus. So, I choose to believe that you do have to accept Christ. The key to me is does that always mean before death or can it mean after? I don't know for sure, but for my sanity - that is what I will believe. Otherwise, I am just waiting out the next 40 or so years of my life for nothing. I want to see my sweet Timmy again and if he is not there - then that is no heaven.

 

:grouphug: What an absolutely beautiful post.

[milovany]

What I have learned about this so far is simply that the Orthodox Church does not take a stance on who outside of the faith gets saved. "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it isn't" - that sort of thing.

 

I was curious about the part I bolded. Is this an Eastern Orthodox teaching? I like what I think it says.

 

I am eastern Orthodox as well (a recent convert), and have heard this. I think the idea is that the "one holy catholic and apostolic" Church is the body of Christ and it is God's "ark" for salvation, as it were. And while the "ramp" (door) God set up to get onto the ark is holy baptism, there may be a lot of people walking toward the ark, you know? It's not up for us individuals to decide where someone is on their path to the Church -- that's God's concern. We do know that he's a loving, merciful God who wants all mankind to come to salvation.

 

Which makes me all the more interested in what Orthodoxy teaches about salvation.

 

In Orthodoxy we define "salvation" as theosis, or "the infinite process of becoming more and more like God" (from OrthodoxWiki) and is more of a process. It's not the evangelical, one-time, thought-or-emotion-based "decision for Christ" after which one calls himself "born again."

 

If you have something close at hand, I would be interested...Thanks.

 

Here's an article I like that speaks about this, and here is booklet called "Finishing the Race" on the ancient understanding that salvation is a lifelong process of becoming more Christ like and enduring to the end.

[HRAAB]

:iagree:

 

i'll take it a step further and say that i don't understand the belief that man needs 'salvation' through christ or any other thing outside himself. being human is wonderful and unique...to constantly fight against one's human nature is insanity and cripples personal power in my opinion.

 

That's why I think the belief in original sin the most important Christian belief. Without it, there's no need for Jesus. That's where my downfall started. Just could not accept the doctrine of original sin.

[LisaMarie6]

An honest answer to your question: I'm not entirely sure. I'm still working this out. (I'm a newbie Christian!) I just know that when I read the gospels as a whole, I see in Christ an infinite capacity for love and forgiveness. And it is difficult for me to reconcile that with this belief that truly good people could end up in hell.

 

But I think part of the answer lies in Christ's words, "to whom much is given, from him much will be required." Only God truly knows us. He knows what challenges we have and what gifts we have, and how well we are putting them to use . . . or not. I suspect that someone raised in a loving church with accurate theology and the true spirit of Christ in their midst will be judged by a different standard than someone raised in a different religion, or someone raised in a toxic church that is Christian in name only, or someone who is raised atheist, etc.

 

Really, I'm not claiming to have all the answers! I'm still asking the questions. The only thing I know is that God is a God of love.

 

I grew up in the church. My dear father is a retired Baptist pastor. :) And I'm still asking questions. :D I agree with your bolded statement completely.

 

I think it was you, but don't remember for sure, who mentioned that one christian sect (can't think of a better word, sorry) that hell is separation from God. This is how I have always pictured it. Jesus said, "I am the way the truth and the life..." So, to not have the Christ is to be dead. Becoming a follower of Christ is not about heaven someday, but about life today. If I choose not to walk in Christ's steps then I choose death and that would be hell.

 

I don't think I can say that all religions lead to God, just based on what Jesus said, but I also don't think there is a magic prayer or set of words that gets you where you want to go. You are right that only God truly knows us, so only He really knows who has chosen to live and who has chosen to die. And God is merciful and full of grace, I do not believe he would send someone to hell because of poor examples or lack of knowledge of him.

 

Thanks for this thread I am enjoying it.

[milovany]

I think you might be tripping some of us up with this: " I expect to find heaven brimming over with people who were non-believers in their earthly lives." Isn't belief pretty important?

 

Sure, but we're not knowledgeable enough, nor was it ever a task assigned to us, to decide who believes what and if it's "enough." That's God's concern. Our concern is our own theosis, being faithful what we have been given, and enduring to the end. I think of my 98 year old grandmother who was an atheist/humanist most of her life, but who in the last 10 years has both asked me to pray for her and let's me pray with her in person (I don't live near her, so this is when I do see her). The last time I went she was calling out to God because of her physical and mental state in life. But she has not "prayed the salvation prayer" (which I don't believe in anymore, anyway) nor has she been baptized into the Orthodox church. Will she be with God in heaven forever when she dies? I don't know. I do know God is merciful, and that he's loving. (I used to fret because she wasn't "saved," now I'm much more at peace knowing God is Who He is).

[HRAAB]

 

Here's an article I like that speaks about this, and here is booklet called "Finishing the Race" on the ancient understanding that salvation is a lifelong process of becoming more Christ like and enduring to the end.

 

Thank you for your reply. Actually, I've read the article about Ancestral Sin vs. Original Sin but had entirely forgotten about it. I still have it printed. I think it raised some questions, but I've now forgotten so need to read it again.

 

I'll look at the other link you gave, too.

[ktgrok]

That's why I think the belief in original sin the most important Christian belief. Without it, there's no need for Jesus. That's where my downfall started. Just could not accept the doctrine of original sin.

 

the Eastern church has a very different view of original sin. They believe that we have the debt passed on by Adam, but not the blame. We aren't inherently sinful, but we do carry the burden of death, which Jesus came to pay for us.

[Lovedtodeath]

 

Okay, thanks for explaining. I am really only intimately familiar with two, um, "versions" of Christianity for lack of a better word. The one I was raised in did not accept the idea of hell at all. The Orthodox Church teaches that hell is a state of being separated from God, a state that one *chooses* of his or her own free will, if I understand correctly. But I remember when I was Buddhist having "Christians" shaking their finger at me and telling me I was going to hell. Actually, I rather expect to meet Buddha in heaven! :001_smile:

Well, the word hell in English Bible translations is translated from Greek, Hebrew and Latin words that have different meanings. That Orthodox belief of hell sounds like one of those. Edited August 7, 2010 by Lovedtodeath

[Lovedtodeath]

The key to me is does that always mean before death or can it mean after?

:grouphug: I hope these scriptures bring you some comfort. John 5:28,29; Acts 24:15

 

"Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever." - Hebrew 13:8

:iagree:Isaiah 45:18; 55:11

[HeathenMom]

That's why I think the belief in original sin the most important Christian belief. Without it, there's no need for Jesus. That's where my downfall started. Just could not accept the doctrine of original sin.

 

 

i completely agree! i could not honestly look at my kids and tell them that they were born evil or fallen, there was no way to reconcile that idea in my mind.

 

but i would never call it my downfall! :D

[Lovedtodeath]

 

born evil or fallen

That is never how I understood it. Imperfect, yes, evil, no.

[HRAAB]

That is never how I understood it. Imperfect, yes, evil, no.

 

I think it depends on your brand of Christianity. Honestly, I was never taught that were were born evil. That we were born with a weakened human nature and a tendency to sin, yes. Evil, no. Still, that we could do nothing for ourselves, on our own, to gain heaven. Without Jesus' redemption on the cross, we were lost.

 

I do not know anything about what JW believe about original sin and Jesus' death and resurrection.

[kokotg]

I guess that's my basic question. And I would be very interested to hear about how other Christians feel about this. Especially Orthodox, as I am a catechumen. What I have learned about this so far is simply that the Orthodox Church does not take a stance on who outside of the faith gets saved. "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it isn't" - that sort of thing. My priest has said he believes it is actually very, very hard to go to hell. That's certainly consistent with my own feelings on the matter: I expect to find heaven brimming over with people who were non-believers in their earthly lives. :)

 

Whenever universalism comes up, I spend too much time pouring over links and reading up on it again. Learning about universalism and that it has a long history in the church and a small but devoted (not to mention intellectually and spiritually serious and sincere) following today went a long way toward getting me back to church awhile back. Anyway....I was just reading about how widely accepted the idea of universal salvation was in the early church, which reminded me of this thread and your asking specifically about the Orthodox Church. My favorite, very long winded, link is http://what-the-hell-is-hell.com/. But this wikipedia entry has the shorter version:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_reconciliation

 

The belief in the eventual salvation of all humankind has been a topic of debate throughout the history of the Christian faith. In the early Church, universalism was a flourishing theological doctrine[2].

 

Various theologians, including Clement of Alexandria and Origen in the 3rd century, St. Gregory of Nyssa in the 4th century, and St. Isaac the Syrian in the 7th century, expressed universalist positions in early Christianity.[citation needed] Though Gregory of Nyssa was a known universalist, he was never condemned. He was additionally declared "the father of fathers" by the seventh ecumenical council.[5][6][7][8]

 

Modern universalists[who?] claim that universalism was the primary doctrine of the church until it was forcibly stamped out by the Catholic Church in the sixth century. Four of the six theological schools of thought in ancient Christendom supported universalism, and only one supported eternal ****ation.[citation needed] Additionally, theological thought appears more varied before the strong influence of Augustine, who forcefully denied universal salvation.[9][10][11] Some claim that Augustine's rejection of the doctrine was an unwarranted side-effect of Platonist pagan philosophy, rather than a conclusion based on his study of the Scriptures.[who?]

[RobinF]

I think it depends on your brand of Christianity. Honestly, I was never taught that were were born evil. That we were born with a weakened human nature and a tendency to sin, yes. Evil, no. Still, that we could do nothing for ourselves, on our own, to gain heaven. Without Jesus' redemption on the cross, we were lost.

 

I do not know anything about what JW believe about original sin and Jesus' death and resurrection.

 

This is what we believe. We believe (my dh and I) that people are born with a human nature not a sin nature. That human nature includes the tendency to sin.

[ma23peas]

This came up in another thread. To many the Word of God is Jesus Christ, not the Bible.The Bible is the witness to the Word, not the Word. So arguments appealing to the the Word but quoting the Bible may be of limited value for many of the people in this thread.

 

Just pointing out how it's not always so certain where the bullseye is.

 

Prove it. The Bible has been proven over and over again, it is the Word of God...if it were purely uninspired and not of God it would have phased out 1000 years ago....for men to try and 'recreate' what Jesus is rather than trust the men who were there with Him...and discount His own words...I think it's a level of arrogance that can be dangerous...never saw the other post...call me a fool for believing the Word...the Word has a list of what a fool is.

[Lovedtodeath]

I do not know anything about what JW believe about original sin and Jesus' death and resurrection.

I also always automatically think of scriptures when questions come up. and, the type of person I am, those mean so much more to me. Of course, I was made aware of these scriptures through repeated use by JWs:

 

Romans 7:21-25 "that when I wish to do what is right, what is bad is present with me. I really delight in the law of God according to the man I am within, but I behold in my members another law warring against the law of my mind and leading me captive to sin's law that is in my members. Miserable man that I am! Who will rescue me from the body undergoing this death? Thanks to God through Jesus Christ our Lord!"

 

For example, Romans 3:23,24 "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and it is as a free gift that they are being declared righteous by his undeserved kindness through the release by the ransom paid by Christ Jesus."

 

In words, what I have always believed I was being taught by Jehovah's Witnesses is this: Man was created in God's image. We still have that in us. We are told to imitate God. Ephesians 5:1 He does not ask what is impossible, so it must be possible for us. At the same time, Adam sinned. We inherited imperfection from him. Romans 6:23, Romans 5:12* We were made from Adam, just as a muffin is made from a muffin tin. If the muffin tin has a dent, then the muffins have a dent too. In some articles it is likened to a genetic disease. It isn't our fault and Christ came to cure us. We are always struggling to overcome a tendency to sin. It is there because of our imperfection inherited from Adam and it is there because of the spirit of the world that surrounds us. 1 John 2:16,17 When we are imperfect we die, but Jesus gave his life for us that we may one day attain to perfection and everlasting life. John 17:3, John 3:16 By washing our robes in the blood of the lamb, they are made clean, all of our sins are not only forgiven, but forgotten, they are gone and put far away from us.

 

Romans 5:12: That is why, just as through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men because they have all sinned.

[milovany]

Prove it. The Bible has been proven over and over again, it is the Word of God...if it were purely uninspired and not of God it would have phased out 1000 years ago..

 

I think she was just referring to the fact that Jesus is called "the Word" in the Bible. The Scriptures ARE perfect and a revelation from God -- but to Christians who are not sola scriptura, the written Bible is not the only revelation of God to man.

[Peela]

It all rests on so many beliefs. I believe this or that. It doesnt matter what you believe, or I believe. I think we are better off being honest and being with the truth- we dont know- that imposing beliefs upon what we simply do not know. I find it quite ok to not know.

[Rosie_0801]

Prove it. The Bible has been proven over and over again, it is the Word of God...if it were purely uninspired and not of God it would have phased out 1000 years ago....for men to try and 'recreate' what Jesus is rather than trust the men who were there with Him...and discount His own words...I think it's a level of arrogance that can be dangerous...never saw the other post...call me a fool for believing the Word...the Word has a list of what a fool is.

 

I'm not who you are talking to, but there are more books in the Ethiopian Coptic Bible than the Western versions. This suggests that the Bible we read is not the whole of God's Word, but only part of it, does it not? If God told the chaps at the council of Nicea to toss certain books out of the Official Edition, why didn't he pass the message onto the Ethiopians? Seems inconsistent, doesn't it? Methinks it was Man who made those decisions.

 

Rosie

[EKS]

It all rests on so many beliefs. I believe this or that. It doesnt matter what you believe, or I believe. I think we are better off being honest and being with the truth- we dont know- that imposing beliefs upon what we simply do not know. I find it quite ok to not know.

 

:iagree:

[justamouse]

i completely agree! i could not honestly look at my kids and tell them that they were born evil or fallen, there was no way to reconcile that idea in my mind.

 

but i would never call it my downfall! :D

 

 

You know, I really struggled with original sin, also, and still do. One buk that I absolutely LOVE, that's not Christian, but in a science way lines up with fallen nature is THE FALL by Steven Taylor. (The Fall: The Insanity of the Ego in Human History and the Dawning of A New Era)

 

http://www.amazon.com/Fall-Insanity-Human-History-Dawning/product-reviews/1905047207/ref=cm_cr_dp_synop?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=0&sortBy=bySubmissionDateDescending#REYGPZ96MZHUR

 

Basically, he posits that 'the fall' is the time humans became aware of the ego. Prehistorically, humans were at peace, had no societal distinctions and were OK with it. No wars, no sexisim. Then comes the climate changes that make the land more arid, and people start getting selfish-they need more to survive (no more eden) and start wandering, searching for food. Things become mine, not yours. Patriarchy starts. Ego, and it's huge claws grasps our brains, alters them, and won't let go. The good part about ego is that we're smarter (we ate from the tree of knowledge) but the bad part is that we're now xenophobic and selfish.

 

It also makes a case for the stories of genesis being myths, and not literal. Anyway, I loved it.

 

eta, I'm like Peela. I'm ok in not knowing. I DO believe in God (and Jesus as Christ), but the rest is a crap shoot. What I DO know is that not knowing is OK. It's not a dangerous place to be. God can teach you a heck of a lot more when you don't know, then when you know it all. Kinda like teenagers, the way everyone is so darned sure of their own way. We need some humility, you know? It's all fear, anyway. Knowing everything, that pride, comes from fear.

Edited August 7, 2010 by justamouse
why else? Spelling

[Lovedtodeath]

I'm not who you are talking to, but there are more books in the Ethiopian Coptic Bible than the Western versions. This suggests that the Bible we read is not the whole of God's Word, but only part of it, does it not? If God told the chaps at the council of Nicea to toss certain books out of the Official Edition, why didn't he pass the message onto the Ethiopians? Seems inconsistent, doesn't it? Methinks it was Man who made those decisions.

 

Rosie

I have a book with a chart listing 17 independent people, in different congregations, councils and countries ranging from 170-397 C.E. with the same understanding of which books should be included in the Canon. In addition, here is my post including quotes about the Bible Canon from experts. :D #48

[LibraryLover]

I'm not who you are talking to, but there are more books in the Ethiopian Coptic Bible than the Western versions. This suggests that the Bible we read is not the whole of God's Word, but only part of it, does it not? If God told the chaps at the council of Nicea to toss certain books out of the Official Edition, why didn't he pass the message onto the Ethiopians? Seems inconsistent, doesn't it? Methinks it was Man who made those decisions.

 

Rosie

 

Rosie, you are delightful. :)

[justamouse]

I have a book with a chart listing 17 independent people, in different congregations, councils and countries ranging from 170-397 C.E. with the same understanding of which books should be included in the Canon. In addition, here is my post including quotes about the Bible Canon from experts. :D #48

 

Well, that makes it right to YOU. But just because a bunch of people say it's right, doesn't make it right. Lots of wars started with a bunch of people agreeing on stuff. Slavery, for instance. And hey, slaves are in the bible too and before the civil war, Christians preached how slavery was the will of God. But that doesn't make it right. You see what I mean? I'm not being ugly, I'm just saying that there are differing perspectives and yours is right for you. From where I sit, not of what you post convinces me.

Edited August 7, 2010 by justamouse

[Lovedtodeath]

My point is that I have a hard time believing anything and have done much digging into whether the Bible is the word of God, and I was convinced that it is. And... the Bible Canon was not a decision made by Constantine. That is all.

 

I also am reminded that in the book of Acts the Apostles were already calling councils and making decisions for the whole of the Christian congregation as men without miraculous intervention.

Edited August 7, 2010 by Lovedtodeath

[Greta]

I think you might be tripping some of us up with this: " I expect to find heaven brimming over with people who were non-believers in their earthly lives." Isn't belief pretty important?

 

I *knew* that I would fumble and blunder, and I did. Let me explain that what I was thinking when I wrote this particular line was not "non-believers" as in people who rejected Christ, but "non-believers" as in people who never had the chance to know Him. I gave the example of the Buddha. He lived 500 years before Christ, in a culture that had little to no contact with the Middle East. So he could not have known Christ, he could not have known of the God of Abraham and Moses. Does that lack of knowledge condemn him? I just can't believe so.

 

I think what beccad777 is getting at by saying that God is a just God is that he simultaneously holds those to account who HAVE heard of Jesus Christ and denied Him as the savior of the world and very likely does NOT hold to account those--young children, mentally challenged, isolated people groups, etc.--who truly have NOT heard of Jesus Christ for their lack of belief/understanding. Seems pretty just to me. Of course, there is Romans 1 which says that many people know of God (maybe not Christ, per se) because the world and creation testify to His existence. So if that's the knowledge/"faith" that some people have within them and they accept it, God will be just concerning that. And He will be just with those who deny as well.

Okay, then maybe we agree here more than I realized! I'm still not sure where I stand (and really, I guess it isn't my place to guess anyway!) on how God will judge those who rejected Christ because they were turned off of Christianity by *Christians* and not because they truly in their hearts rejected Christ Himself, kwim? I guess I feel a tremendous empathy for such people, because, well, I was one of them until very recently! My negative experiences growing up in one misguided Christian denomination led me, errantly of course, to the conclusion that Christianity was just wrong. If I had been judged *then*, before I had the chance to learn true Christian teachings, what would have happened to me? I am so grateful that I lived long enough to come back to Christ. But I would hope for those whose lives were cut tragically short, they might have that same opportunity after their deaths.

[Greta]

I think it was you, but don't remember for sure, who mentioned that one christian sect (can't think of a better word, sorry) that hell is separation from God.

 

Yes, that is, in my understanding, the teaching of the Eastern Orthodox Church.

 

This is how I have always pictured it. Jesus said, "I am the way the truth and the life..." So, to not have the Christ is to be dead. Becoming a follower of Christ is not about heaven someday, but about life today. If I choose not to walk in Christ's steps then I choose death and that would be hell.

 

I don't think I can say that all religions lead to God, just based on what Jesus said, but I also don't think there is a magic prayer or set of words that gets you where you want to go. You are right that only God truly knows us, so only He really knows who has chosen to live and who has chosen to die. And God is merciful and full of grace, I do not believe he would send someone to hell because of poor examples or lack of knowledge of him.

 

Thank you for these comments - very lovely and thought-provoking. :001_smile:

[HRAAB]

Another question. What does it mean to reject Christ? It seems that to reject something you first had to have accepted it as the truth. What about those people who have never been able to believe that Jesus is the Christ?

 

A thought I've had many times: if Christianity were a totally new religion today, and some disciples showed up in your town telling you the story of Jesus. How because of the fall we lost God's grace, but God had now sent a savior to redeem us, and he did that by dying on the cross and then he rose from the dead and ascended into heaven, and that if you believe what they're telling you, then you will have everlasting life in heaven. How many people (Christians) today would believe it? How many would say it was preposterous? I think one reason it is easy for many people to believe this story is that it is our culture's story and has been for many, many years. I suspect that many Christians today would be the ones walking away as did many of the Jews in the time of Jesus and the apostles.

 

I cannot say I have ever sincerely, literally believed it. I tried. Tried to force it on like a pair of way too tight jeans. So uncomfortable you can hardly breathe. So much of what I understand Jesus to have taught I certainly don't reject. But when asked to believe this story, I just can't say yes with integrity. Is that rejecting Jesus?

[Parrothead]

Prove it. The Bible has been proven over and over again, it is the Word of God...if it were purely uninspired and not of God it would have phased out 1000 years ago....for men to try and 'recreate' what Jesus is rather than trust the men who were there with Him...and discount His own words...I think it's a level of arrogance that can be dangerous...never saw the other post...call me a fool for believing the Word...the Word has a list of what a fool is.

John 1:14 (New International Version)

14The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only,[a] who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Footnotes:

1. John 1:14 Or the Only Begotten
   

How has the Bible ever been proven? There are a few place names that have transcended time, but really no proof. The Bible is a spiritual guide, not historical proof.

Edited August 7, 2010 by Parrothead

[Lovedtodeath]

John 1:14 (New International Version)

 

 

14The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only,[a] who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Footnotes:

1. John 1:14 Or the Only Begotten
   

:hurray:

[Greta]

Kari, I have thought of you so often, and for what little it may be worth, prayed for your and your family, and your dear son.

 

At one of my lowest moment, I sobbed to my dh that I was terrified that our ds was in hell. He told me that if he was indeed in hell, then he would go there with him. I know that sound horrible, but if I have to think the my child - a good, decent 21 year old that did anything for anyone, but wasn't sure exactly what to believe - is in hell then I want no part of the heaven that waits for me for believing in Jesus.

 

No, that doesn't sound horrible to me at all. To me, that is a testament of the profound love that a parent has for a child. And if, in our limited, imperfect capacity for love, we can still love that much, how much more can God, in His infinite, incomprehensible completeness, love each of us? That is why I personally firmly believe that your son, and others like him, are indeed in heaven.

[Parrothead]

I'm not who you are talking to, but there are more books in the Ethiopian Coptic Bible than the Western versions. This suggests that the Bible we read is not the whole of God's Word, but only part of it, does it not? If God told the chaps at the council of Nicea to toss certain books out of the Official Edition, why didn't he pass the message onto the Ethiopians? Seems inconsistent, doesn't it? Methinks it was Man who made those decisions.

 

Rosie

It is believed that the Holy Spirit guided/inspired those old white men in choosing which books made it into the Canon.

 

Not only do the Ethiopians have more books than the Protestant Bible, but the Catholics have 7 more books and the Eastern Orthodox have 9 more books. I don't know how many other gospels the Gnostic church has, but I know there are quite a few. (Looked it up - 5 Gnostic gospels)

Edited August 7, 2010 by Parrothead

[Greta]

I just trust that God would never do anything against His nature' date=' and that considering the sacrifice He made, he is infinitely more merciful than I am.[/quote']

 

That is beautifully said.

 

I try to be content with that, and not pretend to know the mysteries other than what he specifically tells us. He does not give us names, or a window into others' hearts, but He does give us general principles that should be taken seriously and not scoffed at. I trust in His mercy, but don't ignore the warnings.

 

Good food for thought. Thank you for your comments.

[Greta]

As many paths are there are people, I would think. Even assuming we were all heading for the same destination, we are all trudging through our own lives. I've been told that Christianity is about having a personal relationship with Jesus. If that is correct, then Jesus is having a personal relationship with a great many people. Jesus would be the same, but each of the people he has this relationship with is different, so each relationship would be different too. No?

 

Rosie

 

Yes! :) (Well, I think the Orthodox view is that it is about communion with God - something that is much more intimate than a "relationship", but the basic idea you are getting at, yes.) But the standard (I think?) view of this path to Christ, this relationship with Christ, is that it is something that begins during our earthly, physical life. I just wonder if there is any reason that it can begin after that. :001_smile:

[Greta]

i'll take it a step further and say that i don't understand the belief that man needs 'salvation' through christ or any other thing outside himself. being human is wonderful and unique...to constantly fight against one's human nature is insanity and cripples personal power in my opinion.

 

I don't think these two ideas - that we need salvation and that being human is wonderful - are at odds at all.

[Greta]

Here's an article I like that speaks about this, and here is booklet called "Finishing the Race" on the ancient understanding that salvation is a lifelong process of becoming more Christ like and enduring to the end.

 

Thank you for this! I did make it back tonight after all, but I'm so grateful that you jumped in to help me out! :001_smile:

[Marylou]

My priest has said he believes it is actually very, very hard to go to hell. That's certainly consistent with my own feelings on the matter: I expect to find heaven brimming over with people who were non-believers in their earthly lives. :)

 

"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it." Matt. 7:13

 

Perhaps you should ask your priest about this (above).

 

Another good verse to memorize: "Will not the Judge of all the earth do right?" Genesis 18:25b

[Greta]

Basically, he posits that 'the fall' is the time humans became aware of the ego.

 

Wow, this is interesting. My dh, who is I guess you would say an agnostic, was telling me just a couple of days that he really doesn't "get" the whole Christian concept of the fall. So I took a step back, tried to think about it in a way that he would understand it, and explained it to him in terms of it being about the ego. It then "clicked" for him and he said he could see it. Now you've really piqued my curiosity about this book!

 

God can teach you a heck of a lot more when you don't know, then when you know it all. Kinda like teenagers, the way everyone is so darned sure of their own way. We need some humility, you know?

 

Good point!

[Greta]

....I was just reading about how widely accepted the idea of universal salvation was in the early church, which reminded me of this thread and your asking specifically about the Orthodox Church. My favorite, very long winded, link is http://what-the-hell-is-hell.com/. But this wikipedia entry has the shorter version:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_reconciliation

 

Thank you, I look forward to reading these!

[Joker]

I struggle with this because dh is atheist. He has always wanted to believe (his dad is a minister and was a chaplain in the Army) but he doesn't. Those on the outside don't really get how hard it is for someone who wants nothing more than to believe in God but doesn't. It is so unbelievably hard for them and those that love them. My dh prays every.single.night.without fail with our dds. He reads to them from the Bible and discusses (he knows more about the Bible than many Christians today) with them any topic they wish. Our dds don't know their dad doesn't believe the same things they do regarding faith and he doesn't want them to. He has said he wants them to have that faith and belief. I have a very hard time fathoming how someone like him who strives to know God and leads his daughters in the Christian faith will not end up in Heaven with us.

[Peela]

 

eta, I'm like Peela. I'm ok in not knowing. I DO believe in God (and Jesus as Christ), but the rest is a crap shoot. What I DO know is that not knowing is OK. It's not a dangerous place to be. God can teach you a heck of a lot more when you don't know, then when you know it all. Kinda like teenagers, the way everyone is so darned sure of their own way. We need some humility, you know? It's all fear, anyway. Knowing everything, that pride, comes from fear.

 

To add some more to that....why do people want to know so much, that wihch they cant possibly know? Because of fear. Wouldnt it be better to face that fear, than make stuff up just to feel secure?

[OnTheBrink]

Another question. What does it mean to reject Christ? It seems that to reject something you first had to have accepted it as the truth. What about those people who have never been able to believe that Jesus is the Christ?

 

 

 

You don't have to accept something to reject it. If you offer me a plate of escargot, I'm going to reject it flat out. I've never accepted it and claimed it as mine; I said no when it was offered. God offers us salvation; we can reject it without ever having accepted it.

 

About the other, I don't know. Romans 1:20 says that God's attributes and nature are made evident to everyone, so no one has an excuse to not believe in Him. I don't know how that comes into play regarding those who've never had the chance to hear about Jesus. I'd like to think that God would not cast out those who lack the cognitive ability to hear and learn about Christ; that's not just. Same with those who never, ever hear about Christ. And, I don't honestly spend a lot of time worrying about it. I trust His grace is bigger than I can imagine, but I don't think that grace extends to those who blatantly, consciously, reject Him or blaspheme His name intentionally until/unless they repent.

[Peela]

What is it we need salvation from, again?

First you need to accept the belief you need salvation from something, and that everything isn't actually perfectly ok as it is. Most cultures dont think we are born sinful, and I am not aware Jesus ever said that either. So why would they want to be saved?

[asta]

Why is it necessary to anthropomorphize a God?

 

And why is the pronoun chosen always "he"?

 

I have an extremely difficult conceptual problem believing that any being capable of creating the universe would be confined to a human construct of gender.

 

 

asta

[Wayfaring Stranger]

oops! deleted duplicate post

Edited August 7, 2010 by Father of Pearl

[Wayfaring Stranger]

I guess that's my basic question. And I would be very interested to hear about how other Christians feel about this. Especially Orthodox, as I am a catechumen. What I have learned about this so far is simply that the Orthodox Church does not take a stance on who outside of the faith gets saved. "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it isn't" - that sort of thing. My priest has said he believes it is actually very, very hard to go to hell. That's certainly consistent with my own feelings on the matter: I expect to find heaven brimming over with people who were non-believers in their earthly lives. :)

 

I have not read this whole thread but I have read anything by the OP or others I know to be Orthodox and any other posts they quoted.

 

There is an unhealthy obsession with salvation in our country right now. Salvation is what it is all about, but if the goal is just to get to heaven and avoid hell then I think there is a problem. The Orthodox are concerned with becoming like Christ, becoming perfect. So from the first lesson in the Highschool Sunday school material I teach from this is how we view our path to salvation (in summary).

 

"Through the centuries, the Orthodox faithful have learned five ways in which the Holy Spirit works with us..."

 

First is Conversion - the movement of dying to self and rising to live for Christ.

This happens at baptism, most are baptized between 6 months and 2 years old. (We are saved by grace not works, understanding is a work). This is immediately followed by chrismation or the receiving of the Holy Spirit. This is the beginning of the journey. But each day, week and year we have to be reconverted and choose to get on the path again and again. One way to do that is to recite the Nicene Creed. That is our sinners pray. It is how we know if we are on the path. (99% of the creed is made up of quotes from the bible).

 

Second is Repentance - The movement of turning back to the way.

If we get off the path we have to turn around and get back on. We ask God to forgive our sins. We also go to Confession because the sins the apostles forgave on earth are forgiven in heaven. There is accountability and community in this. A spiritual father is important it is easy to go off the deep end with a lot of this. Repentance is more than saying sorry, it is a change in direction.

 

Third is Struggle - The movement of walking the path of salvation.

If you are not struggling you are not moving forward. Three ways we struggle are Almsgiving (giving to the poor and needy), Prayer and Fasting (abstinence maybe a better word because it is not 40 days with no food. It is weekly giving up meat and dairy on Wednesday and Friday or observing lent).

 

Forth is Liturgy - The movement of offering and receiving.

This is were we offer and receive the sacrifice of Christs body and blood. The body and blood are the food and drink for the path. We are what we eat and if one wants to be like Christ then one needs to eat and drink the body and blood.

 

Fifth is Wisdom - The movement of ever learning and growing.

We learn from our circumstances and the lives of the saints. For wisdom we turn to the Bible (all 76 books), the liturgical readings, the songs, the icons, the councils (or history) and the lives of the saints. For us the cannon has never been closed. The bible (a written icon of the Word) is the story of our relationship to God. That is not over. The history of what the Holy Spirit is doing is not over. The local mission here is called St Maria of Paris. She died in Nazi Germany. When the song about her was accepted by the whole church world wide then it became cannon. A lot of what I read on this board about the history of the bible is speculation. There is a history and it is knowable.

 

My quick opinion: Jesus is the only way but just because one is in the church does not mean they are "saved. I do not even know (cannot even know) about my own salvation. If others are "saved" outside of the Church it is because of the death and resurrection of Jesus.

 

Sorry so late, so long and so dry.

Edited August 7, 2010 by Father of Pearl

[Lovedtodeath]

Sorry so late, so long and so dry.

But so well worded and appreciated!:)