Christ as the *only* path to salvation (another s/o of Joanne's thread)

[Greta]

I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

I completely accept this scripture. But I think maybe it means something different to me than it means to many Christians. I'm not sure how well I will be able to articulate this, so please bear with me.

 

Christ is the only path to God, yes. But is there more than one path to Christ?

 

Obviously many, many people have lived out their entire lives and died never having heard of Jesus of Nazareth. But at their deaths, or at the final judgment, when they come before Christ, will they not have the opportunity then to accept Him?

 

Sadly, many people have also turned away from Christianity because of the way they have been mistreated by other Christians. But, same question, won't they have the opportunity to accept Christ after their deaths?

 

Doesn't accepting Christ mean accepting what is good and holy? There are good and holy people in all religions. They may not "know" the historical Jesus in any intellectual way, but don't they know Him on some basic, more fundamental level? If their hearts are drawn to what is good and pure and holy, is that not because they accept God in their hearts? Even if they have not accepted Jesus on some intellectual level?

 

If "accepting Jesus" is something that happens on an intellectual level, then how much intellectual understanding is required? Are people who are severely mentally disabled or who die in infancy doomed? I cannot accept that! John the Baptist leaped for joy in his mother's womb when Mary, pregnant with Christ, came to see her. Is a fetus in the womb capable of "knowing" or "understanding" that the incarnate Christ is in the next womb over? No, he felt His presence in the depths of his soul.

 

Can we not "accept" Christ in our hearts and in our souls, even if we do not know or accept Him in our minds?

 

I guess that's my basic question. And I would be very interested to hear about how other Christians feel about this. Especially Orthodox, as I am a catechumen. What I have learned about this so far is simply that the Orthodox Church does not take a stance on who outside of the faith gets saved. "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it isn't" - that sort of thing. I expect to find heaven brimming over with people who were non-believers in their earthly lives. :)

Edited August 10, 2010 by GretaLynne
. . . open mouth . . . insert foot . . .

[abreakfromlife]

I tend to agree with you. Like when Jesus descended into hell after dying, I think something similar will happen where he goes down and gives everyone an opportunity to know Him. One of the pastors I listen to said in a sermon 'I don't think people go to hell on a technicality'

[kokotg]

I think there are a number of Christian traditions that hold that people can "know Christ" in some way without having heard the gospel. There's also Christian universalism, which would say that not everyone will accept Christianity in this life, but everyone will eventually.

[Greta]

I think there are a number of Christian traditions that hold that people can "know Christ" in some way without having heard the gospel. There's also Christian universalism, which would say that not everyone will accept Christianity in this life, but everyone will eventually.

 

Okay, thanks for explaining. I am really only intimately familiar with two, um, "versions" of Christianity for lack of a better word. The one I was raised in did not accept the idea of hell at all. The Orthodox Church teaches that hell is a state of being separated from God, a state that one *chooses* of his or her own free will, if I understand correctly. But I remember when I was Buddhist having "Christians" shaking their finger at me and telling me I was going to hell. Actually, I rather expect to meet Buddha in heaven! :001_smile:

[Greta]

One of the pastors I listen to said in a sermon 'I don't think people go to hell on a technicality'

 

:) Yes, that makes sense to me.

[HRAAB]

 

Can we not "accept" Christ in our hearts and in our souls, even if we do not know or accept Him in our minds?

 

I guess that's my basic question. And I would be very interested to hear about how other Christians feel about this. Especially Orthodox, as I am a catechumen. What I have learned about this so far is simply that the Orthodox Church does not take a stance on who outside of the faith gets saved. "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it isn't" - that sort of thing. My priest has said he believes it is actually very, very hard to go to hell. That's certainly consistent with my own feelings on the matter: I expect to find heaven brimming over with people who were non-believers in their earthly lives. :)

 

I certainly hope so - regarding the first part quoted. I've always, more or less, believed along these lines. Then I began to wonder if it was compatible with Christianity. Our only chance at salvation is to believe (heart and mind). The only way to lose salvation is to not believe. Or something along those lines. That I absolutely cannot believe or accept. So, I'm not sure. I finally got to the point where I could extend 'belief in Jesus' to many people who had openly rejected Christianity or had never shown any interest in it, even atheists. An example is my bil, a very devout Buddhist. He is absolutely one of the most Christ like people I've ever met. He knows and lives Christ everyday even though he has no idea he does. But how many times have I heard it doesn't matter how we behave or act, it's what we believe. (huge sigh)

 

I think I'm too far outside Christianity to ever find my way back in. I cannot, with any integrity, accept the Christian story as literal truth. If I could look for the deep, profound truth it teaches - not just the story on the surface - I might be okay.

 

I was curious about the part I bolded. Is this an Eastern Orthodox teaching? I like what I think it says.

[LibraryLover]

I don't believe that at all. Jesus represents but one religion. I believe humans often want/need a framework to help them live meaningful, good lives, and have somewhere to go when the heart stops beating. That seems human to me. I think religion serves many profound needs. I don't have any problem with religion or the questions it tries to answer. But only one god, one way? No.

[HRAAB]

I don't believe that at all. Jesus represents but one religion. I believe humans often want/need a framework to help them live meaningful, good lives, and have somewhere to go when the heart stops beating. That seems human to me. I think religion serves many profound needs. I don't have any problem with religion or the questions it tries to answer. But only one god, one way? No.

 

For me, I was fighting tooth and nail to stay inside Christianity, and in order to do that, I was twisting basic Christian teachings so I could. If Jesus was the only way, then I had to find a way to apply that to everyone. In the end, I just can't say I think that is honest nor respectful of Christianity.

 

I can take the Catechism of the Catholic Church and fiddle with it until it comes up saying what I want it to regarding salvation. I can find priests who agree with me. But in the end, I think we're just fooling ourselves.

 

Which makes me all the more interested in what Orthodoxy teaches about salvation.

[Greta]

I finally got to the point where I could extend 'belief in Jesus' to many people who had openly rejected Christianity or had never shown any interest in it, even atheists. An example is my bil, a very devout Buddhist. He is absolutely one of the most Christ like people I've ever met. He knows and lives Christ everyday even though he has no idea he does.

 

I think this is the place that I am at as well.

 

But how many times have I heard it doesn't matter how we behave or act, it's what we believe. (huge sigh)

 

I've heard it too, I just don't accept it. At the inquirer's class at my church (EO), an evangelical/charismatic man who is interested in Orthodoxy but is not Orthodox said something from the traditional Protestant point of view on this. A man who has been Orthodox for many years responded "It's not just about my faith, it's about my faithfulness." I thought those few simple words expressed a great deal.

 

I was curious about the part I bolded. Is this an Eastern Orthodox teaching? I like what I think it says.

 

It is. I know that *I* first heard it on Father Stephen Freeman's podcast, though I have no idea if the saying originated with him. I've heard people in my parish, including my priest, say it as well.

[HRAAB]

I think this is the place that I am at as well.

 

 

 

 

You're got my curiosity piqued. Do you feel this belief is compatible with Eastern Orthodoxy?

[Greta]

Which makes me all the more interested in what Orthodoxy teaches about salvation.

 

To me, the Orthodox view of salvation seems fundamentally different from anything in the West - either Catholic or Protestant. I'm not knowledgeable enough yet to feel comfortable attempting to explain it, though. I hope some of the other, wiser Orthodox ladies on these boards will jump in here. I can look for some online articles, podcasts, or even books to recommend for you, though, if you are that interested.

[MrsBasil]

It's compatible with what my priest has taught me about EO, but I'm even newer then Greta and feel inadequate to explain further.

[Greta]

You're got my curiosity piqued. Do you feel this belief is compatible with Eastern Orthodoxy?

 

I do. I asked for Orthodox perspectives, though, because I want to make sure that I am right in my understanding so far.

 

Editing: I'm in a rush, but I'm deleting a chunk of this because it came out totally wrong! I did not mean to make it sound like I was sitting down with my priest so that he could evaluate who is going to heaven and who isn't. My goodness! He would never presume! I only meant that he was reassuring me of God's infinite capacity for love. So sorry for the extremely poorly worded post!

Edited August 6, 2010 by GretaLynne

[HRAAB]

To me, the Orthodox view of salvation seems fundamentally different from anything in the West - either Catholic or Protestant. I'm not knowledgeable enough yet to feel comfortable attempting to explain it, though. I hope some of the other, wiser Orthodox ladies on these boards will jump in here. I can look for some online articles, podcasts, or even books to recommend for you, though, if you are that interested.

 

If you have something close at hand, I would be interested, but don't go to a lot of trouble over it. My interest is because there is a teaching in the Catholic Church, extra eccleisam nulla salus, (outside the Church, no salvation). There's been much written on this, and I believe there is a Vatican II document (something with Ecumenism in the title) that deals with this. Anyway, the 'teaching' you quoted: 'we know where the church is, we don't know where it isn't' (I probably got that wrong), made me think about the Catholic teaching.

 

Thanks.

[beccad777]

The Bible clearly states that Jesus is the only way to heaven. If all we had to do is feel good or drawn to moral things then why did Jesus come to the earth to die for our sins? If you don't believe here, why would God give you a chance to accept Christ after you die? I don't understand this line of reasoning. It seems like you are trying to fit God and the message of salvation into your own little box.

 

We are all sinners. We have all done things wrong. Sin separates us from God. Jesus came to shed His holy, innocent blood to pay for those sins. But we have to accept that gift. If you don't then when you die, you will go to hell. The Bible is very clear on that. I am not trying to be harsh, but that is the reality of it.

 

I do not believe that infants/young children/mentally incapacitated people will go to hell. I believe that there is an age of accountability that is different for each individual. After you come to the point that you understand that you are a sinner and fully understand the difference between right and wrong, then you need to make a choice. If you do not make the choice FOR Christ, then you have chosen to reject Him. Those who reject Him will not be welcome into heaven.

 

I know this is not what you want to believe, but God is a God of justice. He is also a God of mercy, which is why He sent His only Son into the world to save the world.

 

John 3:16 says "For God so loved the world, that he sent His only begotten Son that whosoever believeth in Him, should not perish, but have everlasting life."

 

A choice must be made. If you choose to do nothing, you have still chosen.

[LisaMarie6]

Can we not "accept" Christ in our hearts and in our souls, even if we do not know or accept Him in our minds?

 

Honest question here, not meant as an argument.

 

What do you then do with scriptures like Romans 10:9 & 10 "If the confession 'Jesus is Lord' is on your lips, and the faith that God raised him from the dead is in your heart, you will find salvation. For faith in the heart leads to righteousness, and confession on the lips leads to salvation. Similar scriptures would be Matthew 10:32 and Luke 12:8.

[Guest janainaz]

I wonder if there are some people who hold "the way" in their hearts through love - pure love. In order to really love someone you must be able to love and accept your own self and see your own sin (your own internal battle). In understanding your own internal battle, you are able to pour out that mercy on others because you relate with them in the most human way. I wonder if there are people who truly have the heart of Christ and I wonder if what Christ came to show us was something that could never be expressed through religion or words, but just through pure love. I really believe men screwed it all up, Christ came to fix it, and here we are again - screwing it up.

 

So I'm more open to learning about other faiths and focusing on what unites rather than what divides. God is the ultimate judge and He left us with one task - to love one another - that fulfilled the law. Could it be that Christ really DID die for everyone and everyone really is saved already? Who knows. I would really hope so. But I often wonder if some people would actually be offended by that idea.

 

I love this quote:

 

“The belief that there is only one truth, and that oneself is in possession of it, is the root of all evil in the world†Max Born

 

Think of all the wars that have been fought over this belief. How can we ever love other people if we feel that they have nothing worthy to offer and in fear of being deceived, we close our hearts to them. I just can't wrap any part of me around a Jesus like that.

[Guest janainaz]

Honest question here, not meant as an argument.

 

What do you then do with scriptures like Romans 10:9 & 10 "If the confession 'Jesus is Lord' is on your lips, and the faith that God raised him from the dead is in your heart, you will find salvation. For faith in the heart leads to righteousness, and confession on the lips leads to salvation. Similar scriptures would be Matthew 10:32 and Luke 12:8.

 

21 Not everyone who says to Me, "Lord, Lord," shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.

 

22 Many will say to Me in that day, "Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?"

 

23 And then I will declare to them, "I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness."

 

(And what IS the will of the Father? - Could this mean that those who know love, also know God, who in turn, know Christ?)

[Greta]

If all we had to do is feel good or drawn to moral things then why did Jesus come to the earth to die for our sins?

 

I'm not at all implying that we could get to heaven through good works without what Jesus did for us. Not. at. all.

 

If you don't believe here, why would God give you a chance to accept Christ after you die?

Why not? I believe that God loves us and wants us all to believe in Him and to choose Him. Does it matter if we do so before or after we die, as long as we do so?

 

But my question was also about those who were never given the *opportunity* to believe here on earth. Do you really think that being born in a time and place where Jesus was never heard of condemns someone for the rest of eternity?

 

It seems like you are trying to fit God and the message of salvation into your own little box.

Just like everyone else, in my limited and finite capacity to understand, I am *attempting* to understand an unlimited and infinite God. Obviously I will fall short, I will miss the mark. But I am trying.

 

I do not believe that infants/young children/mentally incapacitated people will go to hell. I believe that there is an age of accountability that is different for each individual.

I see, that makes sense.

 

I know this is not what you want to believe, but God is a God of justice.

:confused: I never said that. Of course I believe God is just. He wouldn't be God if He was not.

[Wheres Toto]

Maybe those who don't follow the Christian ideas of God and Jesus won't find the path to the Christian version of Heaven. But, whose to say that the Christian Heaven is the only heaven?

 

I've always had a problem with idea that a person who has lived a good, moral life helping others without selfishness but has never heard of Jesus, would go to hell. Or someone like Ghandi who has heard of Jesus, but is not Christian. I just can't reconcile that idea with a fair, just God.

[Ellie]

But at their deaths, or at the final judgment, when they come before Christ, will they not have the opportunity then to accept Him?

Maybe. Maybe not.

 

Sadly, many people have also turned away from Christianity because of the way they have been mistreated by other Christians. But, same question, won't they have the opportunity to accept Christ after their deaths?

Maybe, maybe not.

 

Doesn't accepting Christ mean accepting what is good and holy?

No.

There are good and holy people in all religions. They may not "know" the historical Jesus in any intellectual way, but don't they know Him on some basic, more fundamental level?

Maybe.

If their hearts are drawn to what is good and pure and holy, is that not because they accept God in their hearts?

Maybe.

Even if they have not accepted Jesus on some intellectual level?

Not necessarily.

 

Can we not "accept" Christ in our hearts and in our souls, even if we do not know or accept Him in our minds?

No.

 

Someone who has not ever, not one time, heard the name of Jesus might be judged on the basis of the knowledge that he has to work with, but someone who has heard the Gospel message and rejected it has no excuse. That he has been "mistreated" by other Christians is irrelevant as far as salvation is concerned (those people are going to deal with their own bad behavior).

[ThatCyndiGirl]

Wow, Ellie.

 

What, then would you say to someone like me who spent YEARS.....YEARS of my life begging God to put that belief in my heart? I have NEVER EVER EVER (grew up in church) believed in anything the bible had to say about salvation/eternal life,etc. I wanted to. Believe me, life is SO much easier in America if you self-identify as christian. It is the default for much of our society to be white, protestant, republican, christian,heterosexual. But,....I can't say that I AM something that I don't believe. It is a lie.....for me. (Breaking of a commandment, no, to lie?)

 

 

So, I shall burn in your belief of a hell just because I couldn't force myself to believe something? I don't understand that?

[Trixie]

So, I shall burn in your belief of a hell just because I couldn't force myself to believe something?

 

Of course not--because there's no such place. :D

[Greta]

Honest question here, not meant as an argument.

 

Of course! I feel the same way. :001_smile:

 

What do you then do with scriptures like Romans 10:9 & 10 "If the confession 'Jesus is Lord' is on your lips, and the faith that God raised him from the dead is in your heart, you will find salvation. For faith in the heart leads to righteousness, and confession on the lips leads to salvation. Similar scriptures would be Matthew 10:32 and Luke 12:8.

 

An honest answer to your question: I'm not entirely sure. I'm still working this out. (I'm a newbie Christian!) I just know that when I read the gospels as a whole, I see in Christ an infinite capacity for love and forgiveness. And it is difficult for me to reconcile that with this belief that truly good people could end up in hell.

 

But I think part of the answer lies in Christ's words, "to whom much is given, from him much will be required." Only God truly knows us. He knows what challenges we have and what gifts we have, and how well we are putting them to use . . . or not. I suspect that someone raised in a loving church with accurate theology and the true spirit of Christ in their midst will be judged by a different standard than someone raised in a different religion, or someone raised in a toxic church that is Christian in name only, or someone who is raised atheist, etc.

 

Really, I'm not claiming to have all the answers! I'm still asking the questions. The only thing I know is that God is a God of love.

[HRAAB]

 

Someone who has not ever, not one time, heard the name of Jesus might be judged on the basis of the knowledge that he has to work with, but someone who has heard the Gospel message and rejected it has no excuse. That he has been "mistreated" by other Christians is irrelevant as far as salvation is concerned (those people are going to deal with their own bad behavior).

 

I have couple very sincere questions, and since I've already been asking a bunch today, I figure a couple more can't hurt.

 

First, I want to know where you get your authority to interpret Scripture? So you understand, I was raised Catholic, and as a Catholic I acknowledged the church had the authority to interpret Scripture. Do you find that authority in the Bible? I have relatives who argue (just this past 4th they had a good one going) about salvation (once saved, always saved, saved by faith alone, by grace, and on and on). They all believe salvation is through Jesus, but can't agree on the particulars. Who gets to make that call. What makes you right and the Christian over there wrong? Of course, this same question can be applied to the Catholic Church as well.

 

Secondly, what if someone just honestly does not believe. They can get up every morning, say they choose to believe, but there is no way they can wrap their mind around it. Honestly, they're pretending. Is that what God wants? He wants us to ignore our intellect, our mind, our heart? How does one make themselves believe?

 

I am not being snarky or argumentative. I am truly trying to understand. I've spent a good part of my adult life trying to believe. It is a choice I would make every morning along with a prayer to help me make it through the day. But at the end of the day I honestly did not believe. On the outside I could say the right words, but on the inside, I just did not believe. And it was torment. I never did find any peace doing that.

 

When I read 'reject the Gospel' it really sounds horrible. What? Rejecting the love of God? No. Absolutely not. What I'm rejecting is accepting the Christian story as literal, factual truth. I cannot accept that.

 

I hope I have offended you. I guess I'm still trying to work things out.

Edited August 6, 2010 by Ishki

[Greta]

Doesn't accepting Christ mean accepting what is good and holy?

 

No.

 

Okay, I can see where I did not word this one well. *Part* of accepting Christ is accepting what is good and holy, because Christ IS good and holy. But I realize that's not the entirety of it.

 

 

Can we not "accept" Christ in our hearts and in our souls, even if we do not know or accept Him in our minds?

 

No.

 

Ellie, could you tell me then how you view the example I gave of the pre-born John the Baptist rejoicing in the womb?

[Greta]

If you have something close at hand, I would be interested, but don't go to a lot of trouble over it.

 

I don't mind. I'm sure it wouldn't take me long to find something. It will probably be tomorrow though. I am sorry - but I've got to run and won't be back this evening.

[Teachin'Mine]

I completely accept this scripture. But I think maybe it means something different to me than it means to many Christians. I'm not sure how well I will be able to articulate this, so please bear with me.

 

Christ is the only path to God, yes. But is there more than one path to Christ?

 

Obviously many, many people have lived out their entire lives and died never having heard of Jesus of Nazareth. But at their deaths, or at the final judgment, when they come before Christ, will they not have the opportunity then to accept Him?

 

Sadly, many people have also turned away from Christianity because of the way they have been mistreated by other Christians. But, same question, won't they have the opportunity to accept Christ after their deaths?

 

Doesn't accepting Christ mean accepting what is good and holy? There are good and holy people in all religions. They may not "know" the historical Jesus in any intellectual way, but don't they know Him on some basic, more fundamental level? If their hearts are drawn to what is good and pure and holy, is that not because they accept God in their hearts? Even if they have not accepted Jesus on some intellectual level?

 

If "accepting Jesus" is something that happens on an intellectual level, then how much intellectual understanding is required? Are people who are severely mentally disabled or who die in infancy doomed? I cannot accept that! John the Baptist leaped for joy in his mother's womb when Mary, pregnant with Christ, came to see her. Is a fetus in the womb capable of "knowing" or "understanding" that the incarnate Christ is in the next womb over? No, he felt His presence in the depths of his soul.

 

Can we not "accept" Christ in our hearts and in our souls, even if we do not know or accept Him in our minds?

 

I guess that's my basic question. And I would be very interested to hear about how other Christians feel about this. Especially Orthodox, as I am a catechumen. What I have learned about this so far is simply that the Orthodox Church does not take a stance on who outside of the faith gets saved. "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it isn't" - that sort of thing. My priest has said he believes it is actually very, very hard to go to hell. That's certainly consistent with my own feelings on the matter: I expect to find heaven brimming over with people who were non-believers in their earthly lives. :)

 

 

Exactly! I believe that Jesus is the way to heaven, but He will meet with each of us, and at that time, with full knowledge, we will have the choice to love Him or to continue to reject Him. It is through our own choice that we can find our way to hell. God loves each and every one of us, it is not He who distinguishes between religions, it is us.

 

I believe that going straight to heaven is the most difficult and very few do so, but many are given the chance to go after they have been purified in purgatory. Unfortunately, I do think that a significant number do go to hell, but again out of their own choosing once they have learned the truth.

[asta]

I don't believe that at all. Jesus represents but one religion. I believe humans often want/need a framework to help them live meaningful, good lives, and have somewhere to go when the heart stops beating. That seems human to me. I think religion serves many profound needs. I don't have any problem with religion or the questions it tries to answer. But only one god, one way? No.

 

I think where people trip themselves up is in the definitions. "Christ" isn't a name, it is a title: The Christ - meaning the anointed one, or the messiah. There was, according to a book called the Bible, a Christ named Jesus, who came from a town called Nazareth. He happened to be a Jew, and he was not universally accepted as THE Christ.

 

He himself wrote nothing down, but his followers supposedly did. But not until WAY after his death. And their writings were compiled by committee as to what a nascent church thought was the most relevant stuff to compile into a standardized text. It is freely acknowledged that not all of the available writings "made the cut".

 

Was every last letter divinely inspired? Some people think so, some people don't. Is what is now called "Christianity" the only path to a God? Most of the world doesn't think so.

 

Personally, I think any God willing to put up with the foolishness of humans must have an incredible sense of humor. And she must have a great deal of patience.

 

 

asta

[ThatCyndiGirl]

I think where people trip themselves up is in the definitions. "Christ" isn't a name, it is a title: The Christ - meaning the anointed one, or the messiah. There was, according to a book called the Bible, a Christ named Jesus, who came from a town called Nazareth. He happened to be a Jew, and he was not universally accepted as THE Christ.

 

He himself wrote nothing down, but his followers supposedly did. But not until WAY after his death. And their writings were compiled by committee as to what a nascent church thought was the most relevant stuff to compile into a standardized text. It is freely acknowledged that not all of the available writings "made the cut".

 

Was every last letter divinely inspired? Some people think so, some people don't. Is what is now called "Christianity" the only path to a God? Most of the world doesn't think so.

 

Personally, I think any God willing to put up with the foolishness of humans must have an incredible sense of humor. And she must have a great deal of patience.

 

 

asta

 

:) Well said.

[Jugglin'5]

 

 

If "accepting Jesus" is something that happens on an intellectual level, then how much intellectual understanding is required? Are people who are severely mentally disabled or who die in infancy doomed? I cannot accept that! John the Baptist leaped for joy in his mother's womb when Mary, pregnant with Christ, came to see her. Is a fetus in the womb capable of "knowing" or "understanding" that the incarnate Christ is in the next womb over? No, he felt His presence in the depths of his soul.

 

:)

 

I do believe in paedofaith. I believe even an infant in the womb can believe in Jesus. As a Calvinist, I believe that faith is God-given, and the child will grow up to understand it in a more intellectual fashion.

 

From Psalm 22:

9Yet you are he who(R) took me from the womb;

you made me trust you at my mother’s breasts.

10On you was I cast from my birth,

and from(S) my mother’s womb you have been my God.

 

On the other hand, Jesus has quite a lot to say about Hell in the Gospels. One has to make sure one is looking at everything he said, and not just the comfortable things. My personal response to this question is that God is Just and Holy and Good and Righteous, and no one will be in hell who isn't justly condemned. Based on Jesus' words, some of these will even be self-proclaimed Christians. I just trust that God would never do anything against His nature, and that considering the sacrifice He made, he is infinitely more merciful than I am. I try to be content with that, and not pretend to know the mysteries other than what he specifically tells us. He does not give us names, or a window into others' hearts, but He does give us general principles that should be taken seriously and not scoffed at. I trust in His mercy, but don't ignore the warnings.

[Joanne]

Wow, Ellie.

 

What, then would you say to someone like me who spent YEARS.....YEARS of my life begging God to put that belief in my heart? I have NEVER EVER EVER (grew up in church) believed in anything the bible had to say about salvation/eternal life,etc. I wanted to. Believe me, life is SO much easier in America if you self-identify as christian. It is the default for much of our society to be white, protestant, republican, christian,heterosexual. But,....I can't say that I AM something that I don't believe. It is a lie.....for me. (Breaking of a commandment, no, to lie?)

 

 

So, I shall burn in your belief of a hell just because I couldn't force myself to believe something? I don't understand that?

 

Just want you to know I.get.this.

 

And, because I asked for the right belief for so long, I am quick and willing to believe that belief in a Christian spiritual viewpoint in many cases is authentic, real and where God put the prayer.

[ThatCyndiGirl]

Wow, Joanne, I never thought of it that way.

 

Thank you for 'getting'what I am saying and not seeing it as an excuse to attack. I have had many attack what they themselves have never experienced therefore do not understand.

 

 

Thank you. :grouphug:

 

And FTR, when someone describes to me THEIR experience of 'coming to Jesus' I don't discount it as inauthentic just because I havn't experienced it. Just because it hasn't been MY experience does't mean that it isn't real, it just means that I have not experienced it.

 

Clear as mud?

[Joanne]

Wow, Joanne, I never thought of it that way.

 

Thank you for 'getting'what I am saying and not seeing it as an excuse to attack. I have had many attack what they themselves have never experienced therefore do not understand.

 

 

Thank you. :grouphug:

 

And FTR, when someone describes to me THEIR experience of 'coming to Jesus' I don't discount it as inauthentic just because I havn't experienced it. Just because it hasn't been MY experience does't mean that it isn't real, it just means that I have not experienced it.

 

Clear as mud?

 

No, it's very clear. When I was seeking, looking and experimenting about a decade ago, I noticed there were a lot of Pagans that were Pagans defined as "not believers in Christ". Then there were Pagans who were drawn to earth-based spirituality from their core. I totally got the second types, even if I didn't share the specifics of their yearnings.

 

I do believe God can "morph". ;)

[6packofun]

I think you might be tripping some of us up with this: " I expect to find heaven brimming over with people who were non-believers in their earthly lives." Isn't belief pretty important?

 

I think what beccad777 is getting at by saying that God is a just God is that he simultaneously holds those to account who HAVE heard of Jesus Christ and denied Him as the savior of the world and very likely does NOT hold to account those--young children, mentally challenged, isolated people groups, etc.--who truly have NOT heard of Jesus Christ for their lack of belief/understanding. Seems pretty just to me. :) Of course, there is Romans 1 which says that many people know of God (maybe not Christ, per se) because the world and creation testify to His existence. So if that's the knowledge/"faith" that some people have within them and they accept it, God will be just concerning that. And He will be just with those who deny as well.

[HRAAB]

 

Clear as mud?

 

Very clear! :001_smile:

[Kari C in SC]

Someone who has not ever, not one time, heard the name of Jesus might be judged on the basis of the knowledge that he has to work with, but someone who has heard the Gospel message and rejected it has no excuse. That he has been "mistreated" by other Christians is irrelevant as far as salvation is concerned (those people are going to deal with their own bad behavior).

 

I am sorry, but I completely disagree. I had heard the Gospel many times in my life before I found true faith. It was not because I chose not to hear it or believe, rather than my mind, body and soul were not ready to embrace it. I was raised Catholic. At 19, I was baptized protestant, and not until I was 31 did I really get it. Not because I chose not to get it because it just didn't happen. I tried to believe and read and understand. It wasn't until I lost somebody I loved very much that I could walk with faith. I do not believe that is an "excuse". I believe that is reality. People don't just hear the Gospel of Jesus Christ and instantly believe. It is a period of grown and learning that helps them come to faith.

[Rosie_0801]

But is there more than one path to Christ?

 

 

As many paths are there are people, I would think. Even assuming we were all heading for the same destination, we are all trudging through our own lives. I've been told that Christianity is about having a personal relationship with Jesus. If that is correct, then Jesus is having a personal relationship with a great many people. Jesus would be the same, but each of the people he has this relationship with is different, so each relationship would be different too. No?

 

Rosie

[Kari C in SC]

Exactly! I believe that Jesus is the way to heaven' date=' but He will meet with each of us, and at that time, with full knowledge, we will have the choice to love Him or to continue to reject Him. It is through our own choice that we can find our way to hell. God loves each and every one of us, it is not He who distinguishes between religions, it is us.

 

I believe that going straight to heaven is the most difficult and very few do so, but many are given the chance to go after they have been purified in purgatory. Unfortunately, I do think that a significant number do go to hell, but again out of their own choosing once they have learned the truth.[/quote']

 

This is basically what I choose to believe. I am learning. For me this is very sensitive. My ds just passed away in May at the age of 21. Most of you know that here. When he was a little boy, we took him to church some. My husband and I were young - very young when we had him. 16 and 17. We did not know what we believed to pass any of that to him. I always talked about Jesus, but I never really believed the way I do now. That didn't happen until my sister-in-law was murdered by her adopted son. It broke me and I found comfort in faith. I still had a long road ahead of me to get to where I am now. Some of it I did share with my ds. There were times when I talked to him about Jesus. His dad gave him a bible that had flames on the front because when he saw it he knew it was for him. That was not a typical action for my dh. He doesn't attend church, preach in any way, but he does believe. A few months before my ds died, I was talking to him about Jesus. He said to me that he believed in God, he was just really not sure about all the rest of the things. He was confused. He asked me if there was a good and loving God, then how come his Aunt Debi was murdered when she was the kindest, Christian woman he knew. He also asked about all the horrible things he saw in Iraq. I told him I didn't have the answers, but I just believed. I also told him I understood his confusion because I, too, had been confused at that age. I told him that if he opened his mind and heart that in time he would find his faith. I had no idea his life would be so short when I said it. So, when he died, I worried. You know you don't stop worrying about your kids even when they are dead. Strange how that works. I had my niece, who is a well meaning Christian tell me that HOPEFULLY I would see him again because she knew he wasn't all that sure what he believed. So, therefore, she is not sure he is in heaven. At one of my lowest moment, I sobbed to my dh that I was terrified that our ds was in hell. He told me that if he was indeed in hell, then he would go there with him. I know that sound horrible, but if I have to think the my child - a good, decent 21 year old that did anything for anyone, but wasn't sure exactly what to believe - is in hell then I want no part of the heaven that waits for me for believing in Jesus. So, I choose to believe that you do have to accept Christ. The key to me is does that always mean before death or can it mean after? I don't know for sure, but for my sanity - that is what I will believe. Otherwise, I am just waiting out the next 40 or so years of my life for nothing. I want to see my sweet Timmy again and if he is not there - then that is no heaven.

[justamouse]

I wonder if there are some people who hold "the way" in their hearts through love - pure love. In order to really love someone you must be able to love and accept your own self and see your own sin (your own internal battle). In understanding your own internal battle, you are able to pour out that mercy on others because you relate with them in the most human way. I wonder if there are people who truly have the heart of Christ and I wonder if what Christ came to show us was something that could never be expressed through religion or words, but just through pure love. I really believe men screwed it all up, Christ came to fix it, and here we are again - screwing it up.

 

[snip]

 

Think of all the wars that have been fought over this belief. How can we ever love other people if we feel that they have nothing worthy to offer and in fear of being deceived, we close our hearts to them. I just can't wrap any part of me around a Jesus like that.

 

:iagree: I've delightfully fallen in with Christian Universalists, and I am forever thankful for the day I did. Even still, I've given up on the church alltogether. Christ, not so much, but those four walls? Heck yeah. And, when I dropped the internal parameters of "This is what a Christian is" it opened me up to seeing so many people who are so much more Christlike than the ones in the churches. So, I'm staying out here. :)

[ma23peas]

I am concerned. There are a lot of 'thinkers' trying to come to their own conclusion of what is meant by salvation. As much as I try to figure it out on my own...I can not. I go to the one and only source...the Word of God.

 

1 Thessalonians 5:21: "Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.''

 

I say judge those by their fruits as Jesus suggested. The more one grows 'in Christ' or in a relationship with Him, the more you will find the fruits of the spirit..

 

to question man is to in a round about way doubt the Word of God, it is pretty much ALL in there...if I ask men a question, I'll get 400 responses..like throwing darts at the board..but if I ask God...the darts hit the bullseye everytime...

 

Tara

[Donna T.]

I do believe God can "morph". ;)

 

"Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever." - Hebrew 13:8

 

God does not morph, no matter how smart we think it would be of Him to do so.

[WishboneDawn]

the Word of God.

 

This came up in another thread. To many the Word of God is Jesus Christ, not the Bible.The Bible is the witness to the Word, not the Word. So arguments appealing to the the Word but quoting the Bible may be of limited value for many of the people in this thread.

 

Just pointing out how it's not always so certain where the bullseye is.

[Aggie]

Maybe those who don't follow the Christian ideas of God and Jesus won't find the path to the Christian version of Heaven. But, whose to say that the Christian Heaven is the only heaven?

 

What other religions explain heaven or eternal life and how to get there? Are there any other (religious) leaders who rose from the dead? (Gee, these questions sound snarky, but they're not meant to be.:001_smile:)

 

I've always had a problem with idea that a person who has lived a good, moral life helping others without selfishness but has never heard of Jesus, would go to hell. Or someone like Ghandi who has heard of Jesus, but is not Christian. I just can't reconcile that idea with a fair, just God.

 

I think God shows Himself quite accurately through the Bible. I've read many things to which I thought, "Hmmmm...*I* wouldn't have done it that way." I don't understand why He did or does many things. But I can't reject Jesus based on what *I* think God should or shouldn't do. That, imo, is putting God into a human-shaped box. (Do I win a prize for using *I* the most times in a paragraph?!)

[EKS]

There is not a single person on this earth who *knows* for sure what the path to salvation is, whether there is a single path or many paths, or even if there *is* a heaven at all.

[justamouse]

Personally, I think any God willing to put up with the foolishness of humans must have an incredible sense of humor. And she must have a great deal of patience.

 

 

asta

 

I am so in love with you right now. :D

[WishboneDawn]

I think you might be tripping some of us up with this: " I expect to find heaven brimming over with people who were non-believers in their earthly lives." Isn't belief pretty important?.

 

Didn't Aristotle struggle with this?

 

Plato and Aristotle (though not in Augustine's time) have been of fundamental importance to the formation of Christian thought. Augustine thought there must have been pagans (in the sense of non-Christians, as he would have used it) who 1) had had truths revealed to them and 2) been saved...Er... better...got to heaven. I think. The first I'm sure of, the second not so much.

Edited August 6, 2010 by WishboneDawn

[justamouse]

Greta, a great book for you to read (which helped me SO much) is Brian McLaren's http://www.amazon.com/New-Kind-Christianity-Questions-Transforming/dp/0061853984

[HeathenMom]

There is not a single person on this earth who *knows* for sure what the path to salvation is, whether there is a single path or many paths, or even if there *is* a heaven at all.

 

:iagree:

 

i'll take it a step further and say that i don't understand the belief that man needs 'salvation' through christ or any other thing outside himself. being human is wonderful and unique...to constantly fight against one's human nature is insanity and cripples personal power in my opinion.

[RobinF]

I just can't reconcile that idea with a fair, just God.

 

 

But God isn't just a God of justice. He is a holy God.