Christ as the *only* path to salvation (another s/o of Joanne's thread)

[Jyniffrec]

Have you ever seen the movie Dogma? Chris Rock as Rufus, the only black apostle, and, as such, had been taken out of the bible? Priceless.

 

 

a

 

LOL, no I haven't seen that one.

[asta]

There are modern day prophets all over the place. I just read today in The Irresistible Revolution that Shane Claiborne (I know Shane in college but had never read his books before) has seen angles and demons. I think he is very sane and do not know him to lie. In my tradition St John of San Francisco comes to mind. There are Saints of many types in all times.

 

I work with people who have been deemed crazy by society.

 

They see angels and demons all of the time.

 

Are they prophets?

 

Who determines who is crazy and who is a prophet? You would be surprised how rational, intelligent, and kind your average paranoid schizophrenic can be...

 

 

asta

[asta]

LOL, no I haven't seen that one.

 

If you have an open mind and aren't easily offended (eg: if you're say, Irish Catholic or not particularly religious, LOL) it is funny as heck.

 

 

a

[Jyniffrec]

If you have an open mind and aren't easily offended (eg: if you're say, Irish Catholic or not particularly religious, LOL) it is funny as heck.

 

 

a

 

I don't think anything with Chris Rock in it should be taken all that seriously anyway. ;)

[Jyniffrec]

I work with people who have been deemed crazy by society.

 

They see angels and demons all of the time.

 

Are they prophets?

 

Who determines who is crazy and who is a prophet? You would be surprised how rational, intelligent, and kind your average paranoid schizophrenic can be...

 

 

asta

 

I'm wondering what your answer to your own question would be, asta?

[Marylou]

Only HERE can "Chris Rock" and "Christ as the only path to salvation" be in the same thread!

Edited August 9, 2010 by dmmosher

[Jyniffrec]

Only HERE can "Chris Rock" and "Christ as the only way to salvation" be in the same thread!

 

 

:lol:

[asta]

I work with people who have been deemed crazy by society.

 

They see angels and demons all of the time.

 

Are they prophets?

 

Who determines who is crazy and who is a prophet? You would be surprised how rational, intelligent, and kind your average paranoid schizophrenic can be...

 

 

asta

 

I'm wondering what your answer to your own question would be, asta?

 

I think God keeps her options open. ;)

 

 

a

[Jyniffrec]

I think God keeps her options open. ;)

 

 

a

 

We have a tradition of saints in our church called "Fools for Christ". So I agree with you on the relevant part of your post.

[ThatCyndiGirl]

I daresay Truth has done something about it by coming to earth as both God and man but he is polite enough not to force you to believe it.

 

Rosie, I your respect your right to reject truth. :001_smile:

 

 

I'm not Rosie, but can I just tell you how incredibly rude this sounds?

 

 

Please read up-thread to the posts in which I spoke of begging, pleading, praying for years to believe. How someone can so blithely write that they "respect someone's right to reject the truth. :001_smile: " seems cruel and snarky.

 

Some people have not REJECTED what you consider to be the truth. Some people (myself included) cannot FORCE themselves to believe something just because you, other people and a very old book says that it is truth.

 

I'm not bashing your beliefs or your religion. Please understand that it is not so simple as "black and white"...."believe or reject".

[Lovedtodeath]

 

Go into closet. Shut door. SCREAM. Feel a little silly for screaming in closet. Carry on.

Just wanted to say that I love this. Edited August 10, 2010 by Lovedtodeath

[Jyniffrec]

I'm not Rosie, but can I just tell you how incredibly rude this sounds?

 

 

Please read up-thread to the posts in which I spoke of begging, pleading, praying for years to believe. How someone can so blithely write that they "respect someone's right to reject the truth. :001_smile: " seems cruel and snarky.

 

Some people have not REJECTED what you consider to be the truth. Some people (myself included) cannot FORCE themselves to believe something just because you, other people and a very old book says that it is truth.

 

I'm not bashing your beliefs or your religion. Please understand that it is not so simple as "black and white"...."believe or reject".

 

Well, I am talking in terms of truth. I won't sugar coat what I believe in order to make other people feel good. I don't think anyone has done that for any of the Christians on this thread, either. It seems to be one big love fest until some one actually shows up saying they believe in something concrete and knowable.

 

When I believe something is true, I think it is true for everyone. Otherwise I would not believe it. If saying someone is wrong is rude, then so be it. This opinion seems to be wildly unpopular, but I don't follow trends in these things.

 

All I can say about your struggle, Cyndi, is to continue to struggle. The hard path is often the right way.

[Rosie_0801]

I daresay Truth has done something about it by coming to earth as both God and man but he is polite enough not to force you to believe it.

 

Rosie, I your respect your right to reject truth. :001_smile:

 

:lol:

 

I suspect Truth is clever enough to have figured out how to pass it's message onto different types of learners. ;)

 

Rosie

[Rosie_0801]

I'm not Rosie, but can I just tell you how incredibly rude this sounds?

 

Please read up-thread to the posts in which I spoke of begging, pleading, praying for years to believe. How someone can so blithely write that they "respect someone's right to reject the truth. :001_smile: " seems cruel and snarky.

 

I understand where you are coming from, but she was talking to me and to my ears it isn't rude. (It would have been if she'd said it to you, but she didn't.)

 

Some people have not REJECTED what you consider to be the truth. Some people (myself included) cannot FORCE themselves to believe something just because you, other people and a very old book says that it is truth.

 

I'm not bashing your beliefs or your religion. Please understand that it is not so simple as "black and white"...."believe or reject".

I understand this bit too, but she was talking to *me* and reject is exactly what I've done. Telling me I've rejected something that I have indeed rejected isn't at all offensive to me.

 

 

 

All I can say about your struggle, Cyndi, is to continue to struggle. The hard path is often the right way.

 

Or don't continue to struggle, Cyndi. The easy path is often the right way.

 

It's so nice to have options, I think...

 

;)

Rosie

[Jyniffrec]

I understand where you are coming from, but she was talking to me and to my ears it isn't rude. (It would have been if she'd said it to you, but she didn't.)

 

I understand this bit too, but she was talking to *me* and reject is exactly what I've done. Telling me I've rejected something that I have indeed rejected isn't at all offensive to me.

 

 

 

 

Or don't continue to struggle, Cyndi. The easy path is often the right way.

 

It's so nice to have options, I think...

 

;)

Rosie

 

Oh, geez, lol!

[ThatCyndiGirl]

Well, I am talking in terms of truth. I won't sugar coat what I believe in order to make other people feel good. I don't think anyone has done that for any of the Christians on this thread, either. It seems to be one big love fest until some one actually shows up saying they believe in something concrete and knowable.

 

When I believe something is true, I think it is true for everyone. Otherwise I would not believe it. If saying someone is wrong is rude, then so be it. This opinion seems to be wildly unpopular, but I don't follow trends in these things.

 

All I can say about your struggle, Cyndi, is to continue to struggle. The hard path is often the right way.

 

 

Thank you. That was a very kind answer to what probably sounded like a very accusatory question from me. I didn't mean it that way, honest. I don't expect you to sugar coat anything. I just hear it a lot here and IRL that people who 'don't believe' are just rejecting Truth. Obviously those people (including me) don't believe it. Who would reject truth? Who would stand, hair afire and hear someone say, "hey, wanna know why your head is so hot? It's because your hair is on fire!" only to reply, "no, I'm rejecting that Truth". :confused:

 

I wouldn't belittle the experience you have had with God/Jesus/Religion. Just because it has not been MY experience doesn't invalidate it. It seems to me that people like me (who have never HAD such an experience) can't understand what it's like for those who have and people who HAVE had such experiences cannot understand what the lack of such must be like.

 

Oh, what clarity could be achieved if only we could see inside each other's lives/experiences/thoughts/hearts! :001_smile:

[lionfamily1999]

Can we not "accept" Christ in our hearts and in our souls, even if we do not know or accept Him in our minds?

:)

I don't know if there is a second chance moment at the time of judgement...

 

I find that not knowing Christ and not accepting Christ are two vastly different things. Not knowing Christ, or the Gospels does not, imo, exclude you from being a "Christian" at heart. Abraham called out to God and He answered. I imagine that the same thing happens in those dark corners of the earth where Christianity has not been preached.

 

Now, if you know of Christ and do not accept Him that, imo, would mean you are not saved. There is no salvation without Christ and a person having gotten that opportunity and turning it down is turning down salvation.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Christ asked if there was any other way too. While God's answer isn't printed in the Bible, Christ being crucified implies that there is not. I could not imagine a good, just, loving God allowing that to happen to His only begotten son if there was some other way of attaining salvation.

[lionfamily1999]

I feel that the horse is pretty much dead, if we can't go back and read the previous posts with understanding, why say the same things over and over?

 

Just wanted to say that I love this.

Ack, oops! :lol: This is what I get for not hanging around the hive enough.

[Lovedtodeath]

Ack, oops! :lol: This is what I get for not hanging around the hive enough.

Actually, I am glad that it continued, because the last few posts have been nicer.:tongue_smilie: So nevermind.:D

[MamaSheep]

I completely accept this scripture. But I think maybe it means something different to me than it means to many Christians. I'm not sure how well I will be able to articulate this, so please bear with me.

 

Christ is the only path to God, yes. But is there more than one path to Christ?

 

Obviously many, many people have lived out their entire lives and died never having heard of Jesus of Nazareth. But at their deaths, or at the final judgment, when they come before Christ, will they not have the opportunity then to accept Him?

 

Sadly, many people have also turned away from Christianity because of the way they have been mistreated by other Christians. But, same question, won't they have the opportunity to accept Christ after their deaths?

 

Doesn't accepting Christ mean accepting what is good and holy? There are good and holy people in all religions. They may not "know" the historical Jesus in any intellectual way, but don't they know Him on some basic, more fundamental level? If their hearts are drawn to what is good and pure and holy, is that not because they accept God in their hearts? Even if they have not accepted Jesus on some intellectual level?

 

If "accepting Jesus" is something that happens on an intellectual level, then how much intellectual understanding is required? Are people who are severely mentally disabled or who die in infancy doomed? I cannot accept that! John the Baptist leaped for joy in his mother's womb when Mary, pregnant with Christ, came to see her. Is a fetus in the womb capable of "knowing" or "understanding" that the incarnate Christ is in the next womb over? No, he felt His presence in the depths of his soul.

 

Can we not "accept" Christ in our hearts and in our souls, even if we do not know or accept Him in our minds?

 

I guess that's my basic question. And I would be very interested to hear about how other Christians feel about this. Especially Orthodox, as I am a catechumen. What I have learned about this so far is simply that the Orthodox Church does not take a stance on who outside of the faith gets saved. "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it isn't" - that sort of thing. My priest has said he believes it is actually very, very hard to go to hell. That's certainly consistent with my own feelings on the matter: I expect to find heaven brimming over with people who were non-believers in their earthly lives. :)

 

Regretfully I lack time to really answer this as thoroughly as I would like (or read through all the answers, so please forgive me if someone else has posted this information already). So here's my short answer.

 

The LDS (aka Mormon) faith teaches that there is a time between death and final judgment/resurrection in which people exist as disembodied spirits in a state of happiness (if they lived a good life) or misery (if they didn't). During this time all people who did not have a sufficient opportunity to learn about Christ during their mortal lives and to make a choice for or against will have that opportunity. This doesn't mean that we get a second chance to change our minds, just that everyone gets a fair chance to make a choice. If you would like to know more about this let me know, and I'll respond more thoroughly when I have more time. :)

[momee]

delete

Edited August 10, 2010 by momee

[HRAAB]

I understand where you are coming from, but she was talking to me and to my ears it isn't rude. (It would have been if she'd said it to you, but she didn't.)

 

I understand this bit too, but she was talking to *me* and reject is exactly what I've done. Telling me I've rejected something that I have indeed rejected isn't at all offensive to me.

 

 

 

 

Or don't continue to struggle, Cyndi. The easy path is often the right way.

 

It's so nice to have options, I think...

 

;)

Rosie

 

Rosie, your voice is always like a soothing balm in these threads.

[Greta]

The other thing I will add is that the view of salvation in the West is about a legal satisfaction of a debt. In Orthodoxy, salvation is about the restoration of the image of Christ. Sin in the West is a legal offense; in Orthodoxy, it is marring the image of Christ in which each of us is made.

 

It's funny - this teaching is one of the things that made me feel very early on that the Orthodox Church is where it's at . . . so to speak. But at the same time, I guess I'm still wrapping my mind, and my life, around it. :)

 

Salvation is not a noun; it is a progressive verb. I have been saved, I am being saved, I will be saved.

 

I love this! Thank you Patty. :001_smile:

[milovany]

Sorry for the brief hijack, but I want to thank whoever it was who posted the link to the EO church's vision of ancestral vs. original sin. I think this is the best theology I have read in ages.

 

Caitlin, you're welcome. I do not remember who sent me the link (PattyJoanna, was it you?), but I remember being able to take a big, deep breath after reading that. It was so refreshing.

[Greta]

"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it." Matt. 7:13

 

Perhaps you should ask your priest about this (above).

 

I still have every intention of doing this, but I realized something that I feel is very important to mention. I think *I* may have misapplied what he said to situations which he did not intend. And I want to clear that up, because I would hate for my mistake to reflect poorly upon my priest or my church, or give anyone a false impression of the teachings.

 

When he said this during a Sunday homily, he was addressing, obviously, a Christian audience, specifically an audience of Orthodox Christians and catechumens. For those within the Church, I think his statement is obviously very, very true. Through the Church, we have the Bible, we have the Sacraments, we have the Saints, we have the fellowship, the prayers, the hymns, everything we need to help us in our journey to Christ. I think that is what he was getting at. And in my ponderings, I may have gotten a wee bit overly enthusiastic, and took this in a direction he never intended!

 

So I sincerely apologize for that, and I am thinking about editing my OP because I really hate that I may have been misleading/confusing. Sigh. I also think maybe I need to spend a lot more time reading and praying and less time opening my big mouth! :lol:

[Marylou]

The Agonizing Problem of the Assurance of Salvation

[ShutterBug]

I personally reject the idea of mac trucks being deadly. I just can't intellectually (with any integrity anyway) accept a reality where a giant truck could run over and end the life of a good person...who lived a good life just because they refuse to bow down and accept the belief that mac trucks will kill you if you wander out in front of one. It just seems cruel and merciless.

 

I rather like the idea that mac trucks have the ability to freeze time and allow you to move out of the way last minute. I've even tossed around the possibility that mac trucks may have a special invisibility button that will allow you to pass through the truck if it senses your innate kindness (I know, this is really deep and profound stuff so I'm not expecting you to follow me on it.)

 

You see, I'm not "sola logica via encyclopedia knowledgis", so just because your interpretation of said reading materials and historical accounts impacts your truth, it doesn't mean that it has to shape my truth.

 

Now, I'm headed out for a night time stroll on the local thruway dressed in non reflective clothing because I have become enlightened enough to realize that I have nothing to fear :) .

[ThatCyndiGirl]

What he said. I was too lazy to write this post.

 

The other thing I will add is that the view of salvation in the West is about a legal satisfaction of a debt. In Orthodoxy, salvation is about the restoration of the image of Christ. Sin in the West is a legal offense; in Orthodoxy, it is marring the image of Christ in which each of us is made.

 

Salvation is not a noun; it is a progressive verb. I have been saved, I am being saved, I will be saved.

 

Wow, that is really profound! I don't know who 'he' is or what 'he' said, so I only saw yours, I guess.

 

My Lutheran friends describe Salvation as this: It is not, as the evangelicals put it, something that "I have to do" as in "I now accept Jesus into my heart by saying the Sinner's Prayer", but something that he already did, as in, Salvation is the fact that 'he accepted us'. I found the difference very profound and thought-provoking. My Lutheran friends reiterated it, "we don't DO it, he already DID it!....We don't accept him, he accepted us". It was so different than what I grew up hearing/praying.

[milovany]

I also think maybe I need to spend a lot more time reading and praying and less time opening my big mouth!

 

Oh, huh, hmmmm. Ahem. Have you noticed I've been off the boards more lately? :D

[Greta]

Oh, huh, hmmmm. Ahem. Have you noticed I've been off the boards more lately? :D

 

:lol: You are more wise than I. I'm "justifying" it this way though: we are going to start school in two weeks, and I'm going to be really strict and efficient . . . then. For now, well, that's a different matter! :D

[Marylou]

So I sincerely apologize for that, and I am thinking about editing my OP because I really hate that I may have been misleading/confusing. Sigh. I also think maybe I need to spend a lot more time reading and praying and less time opening my big mouth! :lol:

 

I don't think you need to apologize.

 

My Lutheran friends reiterated it, "we don't DO it, he already DID it!....We don't accept him, he accepted us". It was so different than what I grew up hearing/praying.

 

Sounds like you have some neat friends. They are exactly right. God accepts us because of what Christ has done (imputation of righteousness). Makes me want to start singing the Hallelujah Chorus!

[ThatCyndiGirl]

I personally reject the idea of mac trucks being deadly. I just can't intellectually (with any integrity anyway) accept a reality where a giant truck could run over and end the life of a good person...who lived a good life just because they refuse to bow down and accept the belief that mac trucks will kill you if you wander out in front of one. It just seems cruel and merciless.

 

I rather like the idea that mac trucks have the ability to freeze time and allow you to move out of the way last minute. I've even tossed around the possibility that mac trucks may have a special invisibility button that will allow you to pass through the truck if it senses your innate kindness (I know, this is really deep and profound stuff so I'm not expecting you to follow me on it.)

 

You see, I'm not "sola logica via encyclopedia knowledgis", so just because your interpretation of said reading materials and historical accounts impacts your truth, it doesn't mean that it has to shape my truth.

 

Now, I'm headed out for a night time stroll on the local thruway dressed in non reflective clothing because I have become enlightened enough to realize that I have nothing to fear :) .

 

 

This ridiculous analogy was used in a past thread about a similar topic. :rolleyes:

 

OP, I just want you to know that whether or not you choose to edit your OP, I have really enjoyed and learned a lot in this thread, so.....thank you!

[Marylou]

OP, I just want you to know that whether or not you choose to edit your OP, I have really enjoyed and learned a lot in this thread, so.....thank you!

 

Ditto :001_smile:

[Greta]

OP, I just want you to know that whether or not you choose to edit your OP, I have really enjoyed and learned a lot in this thread, so.....thank you!

 

Ditto :001_smile:

 

Thank you both so much! You really made me smile. Though I kind of fumbled and bumbled my way through it, I did really enjoy the conversation. It was so nice to read everyone's contributions. It's fun to have these more challenging conversations every once in awhile, as much as I really do enjoy the ones about curriculum or who is ticked off at their MIL or their neighbor or whatnot! :D

[ThatCyndiGirl]

We could always try to break down the philosophy behind my Bacon Nutella Sandwhich. :lol:

[asta]

I personally reject the idea of mac trucks being deadly. I just can't intellectually (with any integrity anyway) accept a reality where a giant truck could run over and end the life of a good person...who lived a good life just because they refuse to bow down and accept the belief that mac trucks will kill you if you wander out in front of one. It just seems cruel and merciless.

 

I rather like the idea that mac trucks have the ability to freeze time and allow you to move out of the way last minute. I've even tossed around the possibility that mac trucks may have a special invisibility button that will allow you to pass through the truck if it senses your innate kindness (I know, this is really deep and profound stuff so I'm not expecting you to follow me on it.)

 

You see, I'm not "sola logica via encyclopedia knowledgis", so just because your interpretation of said reading materials and historical accounts impacts your truth, it doesn't mean that it has to shape my truth.

 

Now, I'm headed out for a night time stroll on the local thruway dressed in non reflective clothing because I have become enlightened enough to realize that I have nothing to fear :) .

 

Welcome to the boards! (I haven't seen your posts before)

 

 

This ridiculous analogy was used in a past thread about a similar topic. :rolleyes:

 

Hey! How incredibly snarky!

 

 

Have a great day everyone. :001_smile:

 

 

asta

[freethinkermama]

I personally reject the idea of mac trucks being deadly. I just can't intellectually (with any integrity anyway) accept a reality where a giant truck could run over and end the life of a good person...who lived a good life just because they refuse to bow down and accept the belief that mac trucks will kill you if you wander out in front of one. It just seems cruel and merciless.

 

I rather like the idea that mac trucks have the ability to freeze time and allow you to move out of the way last minute. I've even tossed around the possibility that mac trucks may have a special invisibility button that will allow you to pass through the truck if it senses your innate kindness (I know, this is really deep and profound stuff so I'm not expecting you to follow me on it.)

 

You see, I'm not "sola logica via encyclopedia knowledgis", so just because your interpretation of said reading materials and historical accounts impacts your truth, it doesn't mean that it has to shape my truth.

 

Now, I'm headed out for a night time stroll on the local thruway dressed in non reflective clothing because I have become enlightened enough to realize that I have nothing to fear :) .

 

False equivalence fallacy. Mac Trucks can be seen, smelled, tasted, felt, and heard by everyone with these senses. No one questions existence of Mac Trucks save a solipsist.

 

God/Heaven/Salvation--none of the above.

 

T.

[lionfamily1999]

False equivalence fallacy. Mac Trucks can be seen, smelled, tasted, felt, and heard by everyone with these senses. No one questions existence of Mac Trucks save a solipsist.

 

God/Heaven/Salvation--none of the above.

 

T.

The majority of people see that living within the creation of God, being one of those creations, means that you can indeed taste/see/smell/feel God. It's like using a Dickens' novel to prove his existence. Dickens' (or someone calling themself that) must have existed for those novels to exist.

[freethinkermama]

The majority of people see that living within the creation of God, being one of those creations, means that you can indeed taste/see/smell/feel God. It's like using a Dickens' novel to prove his existence. Dickens' (or someone calling themself that) must have existed for those novels to exist.

 

Hmmm, maybe you're right. I'm definitely converting to Islam now because so many people can see/smell/feel/taste/hear Allah. :001_smile: Funny how so many people have experiences of a god but disagree on what He/She/It is.

 

No one's going to disagree on a Mac Truck.

[Wheres Toto]

The majority of people see that living within the creation of God, being one of those creations, means that you can indeed taste/see/smell/feel God. It's like using a Dickens' novel to prove his existence. Dickens' (or someone calling themself that) must have existed for those novels to exist.

 

How about Mark Twain? He wrote a lot of books but never really existed (at least under that name). How many books are written these days using a pen name but are really done by a variety of people? The existance of a name on a book doesn't guarantee that person actually existed. Richard Bachman had a biography, wife and kids but never actually existed. ;)

 

Funny how so many people have experiences of a god but disagree on what He/She/It is.

 

No one's going to disagree on a Mac Truck.

:iagree:

[LizzyBee]

But my question was also about those who were never given the *opportunity* to believe here on earth. Do you really think that being born in a time and place where Jesus was never heard of condemns someone for the rest of eternity?

 

 

 

My thoughts on this:

 

If you seek me with all your heart, you will find me. (the prophet Jeremiah)

 

The knowledge of God is written on the hearts of men. (the book of Romans)

 

God transcends the Bible. He spoke to people before the Scriptures were written, and he can do so now.

 

I do believe the words of Jesus that He is the only way. But I also believe that God is big enough to work around lack of explicit knowledge and written Scriptures.

[kokotg]

Hmm...the analogy also looks very different when we assign intentionality to the Mac truck. i.e. a driver. Even if someone knows running out in front of a Mac truck is dangerous (and, not to belabor the point, but we live in a world where not everyone DOES know that God the Mac truck is dangerous), we expect the driver to stop in time if he can, yes? Like, say, if he's omnipotent? Actually, this is exactly why universalism makes sense to me. Otherwise, you're left with God as a Mac truck driver who's running people down right and left to teach them a lesson.

 

ETA: not to mention, a God who deliberately created a Mac truck KNOWING people would be running out in front of it all the time. I think analogies just don't work well with a Calvinist God. He always comes off looking really bad.

Edited August 10, 2010 by kokotg

[Greta]

I do believe the words of Jesus that He is the only way. But I also believe that God is big enough to work around lack of explicit knowledge and written Scriptures.

 

This makes a lot of sense - I like the way you said it. :)

[asta]

Hmm...the analogy also looks very different when we assign intentionality to the Mac truck. i.e. a driver. Even if someone knows running out in front of a Mac truck is dangerous (and, not to belabor the point, but we live in a world where not everyone DOES know that God the Mac truck is dangerous), we expect the driver to stop in time if he can, yes? Like, say, if he's omnipotent? Actually, this is exactly why universalism makes sense to me. Otherwise, you're left with God as a Mac truck driver who's running people down right and left to teach them a lesson.

 

ETA: not to mention, a God who deliberately created a Mac truck KNOWING people would be running out in front of it all the time. I think analogies just don't work well with a Calvinist God. He always comes off looking really bad.

 

Ok, I'm sorry, but your ETA really made me laugh.

 

 

a

[lionfamily1999]

How about Mark Twain? He wrote a lot of books but never really existed (at least under that name). How many books are written these days using a pen name but are really done by a variety of people? The existance of a name on a book doesn't guarantee that person actually existed. Richard Bachman had a biography, wife and kids but never actually existed. ;)

 

 

:iagree:

We might have the name wrong, but we know he existed, because of his creation (speaking of Twain) ;)

 

Hmmm, maybe you're right. I'm definitely converting to Islam now because so many people can see/smell/feel/taste/hear Allah. :001_smile: Funny how so many people have experiences of a god but disagree on what He/She/It is.

 

No one's going to disagree on a Mac Truck.

Except there are people that believe the truck will stop before it hits their car or runs them over. That's why there are bad accidents where people cut off a truck, end up squished and then want to blame the truck driver.

 

The majority of humanity finds creation itself reason enough to believe in a god. Most people can agree on there being a higher power, they disagree once it goes beyond that...

 

It's a lot like people agreeing that a truck has the ability to flatten a person or a car, but so many people seem to think they can stop on a dime........ or that for some reason the truck should stop for them.