Christ as the *only* path to salvation (another s/o of Joanne's thread)

[EKS]

To add some more to that....why do people want to know so much, that wihch they cant possibly know? Because of fear. Wouldnt it be better to face that fear, than make stuff up just to feel secure?

 

:iagree:

 

It all seems like one big human construct to me.

[ThatCyndiGirl]

You don't have to accept something to reject it. If you offer me a plate of escargot, I'm going to reject it flat out. I've never accepted it and claimed it as mine; I said no when it was offered. God offers us salvation; we can reject it without ever having accepted it.

 

About the other, I don't know. Romans 1:20 says that God's attributes and nature are made evident to everyone, so no one has an excuse to not believe in Him. I don't know how that comes into play regarding those who've never had the chance to hear about Jesus. I'd like to think that God would not cast out those who lack the cognitive ability to hear and learn about Christ; that's not just. Same with those who never, ever hear about Christ. And, I don't honestly spend a lot of time worrying about it. I trust His grace is bigger than I can imagine, but I don't think that grace extends to those who blatantly, consciously, reject Him or blaspheme His name intentionally until/unless they repent.

 

I don't really understand the bolded and I feel that you don't really understand the question you quoted. (it was also a question I asked earlier in the thread)

 

I spent YEARS of my life begging god to put the belief in my heart/mind. I have NEVER believed anything the bible said. It is NOT a choice! If I just SAY that I believe then I am LYING.

 

That is NOT A REJECTION!!! I have cried out FOR YEARS AND YEARS to believe!! Apparently, that was a complete waste of time. There are only two possible answers that I see:

 

Either there is no god listening to my prayer or

 

There is a god, but the god chooses simply to NOT answer my prayer. Perhaps god has rejected ME, no? :confused:

 

P.S. Your example is a fallacy. You HAVE accepted the PREMISE that escargot exists.

[Jyniffrec]

:iagree:

 

It all seems like one big human construct to me.

 

 

I am not sure I understand. If you mean people had a part to play (or there is a history) then yes it is a at least partly a human construct. There is nothing wrong with that. God worked through man in history. How would you know if something is a human construct? What does that mean?

 

We are on the Well Trained Mind board why would we not want to know more. It seems like the more we know the less we would have to make up. I study so I do not have to make it up on my own.

 

Edit: I was on my wife's account. I meant to post under Father of Pearl. Still getting use to this new fangled technology. :)

Edited August 7, 2010 by Jyniffrec

[HRAAB]

I don't really understand the bolded and I feel that you don't really understand the question you quoted. (it was also a question I asked earlier in the thread)

 

I spent YEARS of my life begging god to put the belief in my heart/mind. I have NEVER believed anything the bible said. It is NOT a choice! If I just SAY that I believe then I am LYING.

 

That is NOT A REJECTION!!! I have cried out FOR YEARS AND YEARS to believe!! Apparently, that was a complete waste of time. There are only two possible answers that I see:

 

Either there is no god listening to my prayer or

 

There is a god, but the god chooses simply to NOT answer my prayer. Perhaps god has rejected ME, no? :confused:

 

P.S. Your example is a fallacy. You HAVE accepted the PREMISE that escargot exists.

 

I understand what SolaMichella is saying. I do understand the Christian belief. I don't think, however, that many Christians can understand what I'm saying or where I'm at. They want to think that I'm simply rejecting the free gift salvation. Good heavens. Why in the world would I want to reject salvation and spend eternity in hell, never to be in the presence of God. I don't want hell, I want heaven. I would never turn away salvation (if, indeed, we need it). What I can't accept with any integrity and honest, is that the Christian story (the fall, the Chosen people, God only sending prophets to His chosen people, God becoming man, dying on the cross to save us, rising from the dead, ascending into heaven) as a literal, factual truth. But see, it's not as simple as saying I want salvation and heaven. You also must believe the story. So although I want to be with God, I can't, because I have not been able to make myself believe the story in a literal way.

 

If I could view it as a story, indeed as a very important story, so important that an entire culture has been built upon it, and look for the deep, profound truth it tells, not just the story on the surface - I could do that. But it doesn't work that way. You can't force that belief. It's very hurtful when people say I've not prayed enough. If they only knew.

 

For someone who totally believes, I think it is almost impossible for them to understand someone who does not, cannot believe. It's such a wonderful thing, why doesn't everyone believe it? The conclusion: they must be rejecting it.

[OnTheBrink]

I don't really understand the bolded and I feel that you don't really understand the question you quoted. (it was also a question I asked earlier in the thread)

 

I spent YEARS of my life begging god to put the belief in my heart/mind. I have NEVER believed anything the bible said. It is NOT a choice! If I just SAY that I believe then I am LYING.

 

That is NOT A REJECTION!!! I have cried out FOR YEARS AND YEARS to believe!! Apparently, that was a complete waste of time. There are only two possible answers that I see:

 

Either there is no god listening to my prayer or

 

There is a god, but the god chooses simply to NOT answer my prayer. Perhaps god has rejected ME, no? :confused:

 

P.S. Your example is a fallacy. You HAVE accepted the PREMISE that escargot exists.

 

Really? You can't see, taste, touch, smell escargot? Ok, then, substitute escargot for chair, car, anything else you can see, taste, touch, smell, etc. There's no "premise" that something in front of your face exists. If you're going to get all existential on me, then we're talking in circles.

 

And, yes, you can reject something without accepting it. I never said that was the only way to reject something. I simply said you don't have to accept something to reject it. It had nothing to do with your personal experience.

[kokotg]

Really? You can't see, taste, touch, smell escargot? Ok, then, substitute escargot for chair, car, anything else you can see, taste, touch, smell, etc. There's no "premise" that something in front of your face exists. If you're going to get all existential on me, then we're talking in circles.

 

 

 

I think you misunderstood. She wasn't saying you can't see, taste, touch, and smell escargot. She was saying you can't see, touch, et. al, God and that, therefore, God and escargot are not analogous. Although it's fun to think about them being analogous.

[OnTheBrink]

I think you misunderstood. She wasn't saying you can't see, taste, touch, and smell escargot. She was saying you can't see, touch, et. al, God and that, therefore, God and escargot are not analogous. Although it's fun to think about them being analogous.

 

The escargot wasn't even the point. The point was, you can reject something without having accepted it.

[Teachin'Mine]

This is basically what I choose to believe. I am learning. For me this is very sensitive. My ds just passed away in May at the age of 21. Most of you know that here. When he was a little boy, we took him to church some. My husband and I were young - very young when we had him. 16 and 17. We did not know what we believed to pass any of that to him. I always talked about Jesus, but I never really believed the way I do now. That didn't happen until my sister-in-law was murdered by her adopted son. It broke me and I found comfort in faith. I still had a long road ahead of me to get to where I am now. Some of it I did share with my ds. There were times when I talked to him about Jesus. His dad gave him a bible that had flames on the front because when he saw it he knew it was for him. That was not a typical action for my dh. He doesn't attend church, preach in any way, but he does believe. A few months before my ds died, I was talking to him about Jesus. He said to me that he believed in God, he was just really not sure about all the rest of the things. He was confused. He asked me if there was a good and loving God, then how come his Aunt Debi was murdered when she was the kindest, Christian woman he knew. He also asked about all the horrible things he saw in Iraq. I told him I didn't have the answers, but I just believed. I also told him I understood his confusion because I, too, had been confused at that age. I told him that if he opened his mind and heart that in time he would find his faith. I had no idea his life would be so short when I said it. So, when he died, I worried. You know you don't stop worrying about your kids even when they are dead. Strange how that works. I had my niece, who is a well meaning Christian tell me that HOPEFULLY I would see him again because she knew he wasn't all that sure what he believed. So, therefore, she is not sure he is in heaven. At one of my lowest moment, I sobbed to my dh that I was terrified that our ds was in hell. He told me that if he was indeed in hell, then he would go there with him. I know that sound horrible, but if I have to think the my child - a good, decent 21 year old that did anything for anyone, but wasn't sure exactly what to believe - is in hell then I want no part of the heaven that waits for me for believing in Jesus. So, I choose to believe that you do have to accept Christ. The key to me is does that always mean before death or can it mean after? I don't know for sure, but for my sanity - that is what I will believe. Otherwise, I am just waiting out the next 40 or so years of my life for nothing. I want to see my sweet Timmy again and if he is not there - then that is no heaven.

 

:grouphug:

 

Kari I think you gave your son a beautiful gift by passing along what you had experienced in your faith journey. When we talk about people having doubts, we can easily talk about the apostles even. Thomas of course comes to mind, and how about Peter denying he even knew Him? We are only human. God loves each and every one of us. Honestly, from what you've shared about your son, I have no doubt that he's either already in Heaven, or in the "waiting room". I love Padre Pio - he's a Saint who lived an incredible life, and is still doing so much to get more and more people into heaven. Before he died, he told people that he won't enter into heaven until everyone who has asked for his help is already there. I take great comfort in this. If you read about him, there are so many true and amazing stories of how he protected his little town in Italy during the war. He would appear in the sky in front of a plane scheduled to drop bombs on his town, and tell them to turn around. Other times, bombs were dropped, but never exploded. His town was untouched during the war when all around it was bombed.

 

Our Lord is so Merciful and loving. If Timmy isn't already with him, he will be one day soon. It sounds like he probably lived his purgatory on earth with what he had to see and experience in Iraq. If he's already there, you have a powerful advocate for you and your husband, and if he's not yet, your prayers for him will make his time in purgatory shorter. Don't let anyone tell you that he's not going to heaven because he didn't know what to believe. Satan believed fully in God, and look where he is. It's choices we make, and I believe that even the worst of us can ask God for His mercy and forgiveness at the time of death, and be saved. Remember the "good thief"? We know from Jesus' words to him what his fate was. Jesus came to call us sinners.

 

Like you, I don't know why bad things happen to good people. But I do know that God has a way of making good come out of bad. You found your faith when faced with your tragedy, and it's that faith that has been giving you the strength to get through the loss of your son. Trust in Him. :)

Edited August 7, 2010 by Teachin'Mine

[ThatCyndiGirl]

The escargot wasn't even the point. The point was, you can reject something without having accepted it.

 

 

I feel like you aren't hearing me. I cannot reject something when I have BEGGED AND PLEADED AND CRIED OUT for understanding. How is that rejecting something? I am asking for it, begging, pleading. How is that rejecting simply because I can't make myself, force myself to believe?

 

How is that rejection?

 

"You can reject something without having accepted it"? What doest that even mean? How is not understanding something/not experiencing something rejection?

[kokotg]

The escargot wasn't even the point. The point was, you can reject something without having accepted it.

 

Yes, I know. I understand the concept of analogies. The point is, there's a difference between rejecting something you know is real and simply not believing that something exists. I'm not sure of any other way to say it.

 

ETA: Although I did briefly consider an analogy about unicorns. But that seems overdone.

Edited August 7, 2010 by kokotg

[OnTheBrink]

Yes, I know. I understand the concept of analogies. The point is, there's a difference between rejecting something you know is real and simply not believing that something exists. I'm not sure of any other way to say it.

 

And I think a lot of presuppositions are being added to my words.

 

Let me try to make this clearer to both you and Cyndi.

 

First, Cyndi, my comments on the ability to reject without accepting have absolutely nothing to do with your personal experiences. I honestly can not address those. There are too many variables of which I know nothing for me to even begin to address it. I do not know your heart, so I can not say with any certainty at all why your experiences are what they are. I just can't.

 

Secondly, someone asked the question, "Don't you have to accept something to be able to reject it?" to which I said, "No." This is why I used the escargot example. I was not equating escargot (or a tangible item) with God at all. My point wasn't even about God specifically. My point was, yes, you can reject something (like a plate of escargot) without having accepted it first. Period.

 

Now, about the question of rejecting God specifically, which really wasn't addressed in my first post in this thread, but since it's come up, l'll give my .02. I believe God's gift of salvation is offered to all. I think it can be rejected without having accepted it first. This in no way means that I think this is the case with every single person who's struggled with Christianity. I believe that those who've rejected Christ completely DON'T personally struggle with Christianity, in the sense that their struggles are internally personal (not to be confused with people who "struggle" in the sense that they don't like Christians and are openly anti-Christian).

 

So, again, Cyndi, I can't address your personal issues with Christianity or with God or with Christ. I'm not being flip; I just lack the omnipotence required to look into your heart and see clearly what's there. We ALL lack that omnipotence to look within our own hearts and see them clearly. But, I want to make it clear that my point about rejection without prior acceptance has nothing to do with you or your personal experiences. I wasn't implying that you'd not accepted or rejected anything. I was simply answering the question about the need to accept before rejecting.

[ThatCyndiGirl]

SolaMichelle, thank you for explaining what you did. That makes more sense. I totally understand the "I can't see your heart" thing.

 

When someone describes to me THEIR experience of the divine I don't discount it simply because *I* havn't experienced it. I thought that's what you were doing. You were not. :grouphug:

[OnTheBrink]

SolaMichelle, thank you for explaining what you did. That makes more sense. I totally understand the "I can't see your heart" thing.

 

When someone describes to me THEIR experience of the divine I don't discount it simply because *I* havn't experienced it. I thought that's what you were doing. You were not. :grouphug:

 

Not at all. :grouphug:

[Georgiana Daniels]

I think there are a number of Christian traditions that hold that people can "know Christ" in some way without having heard the gospel. There's also Christian universalism, which would say that not everyone will accept Christianity in this life, but everyone will eventually.

 

I believe what you're referring to is called Universal Reconciliation (at least as far as I've understood it.)

[Wheres Toto]

I understand what SolaMichella is saying. I do understand the Christian belief. I don't think, however, that many Christians can understand what I'm saying or where I'm at. They want to think that I'm simply rejecting the free gift salvation. Good heavens. Why in the world would I want to reject salvation and spend eternity in hell, never to be in the presence of God. I don't want hell, I want heaven. I would never turn away salvation (if, indeed, we need it). What I can't accept with any integrity and honest, is that the Christian story (the fall, the Chosen people, God only sending prophets to His chosen people, God becoming man, dying on the cross to save us, rising from the dead, ascending into heaven) as a literal, factual truth. But see, it's not as simple as saying I want salvation and heaven. You also must believe the story. So although I want to be with God, I can't, because I have not been able to make myself believe the story in a literal way.

 

If I could view it as a story, indeed as a very important story, so important that an entire culture has been built upon it, and look for the deep, profound truth it tells, not just the story on the surface - I could do that. But it doesn't work that way. You can't force that belief. It's very hurtful when people say I've not prayed enough. If they only knew.

 

For someone who totally believes, I think it is almost impossible for them to understand someone who does not, cannot believe. It's such a wonderful thing, why doesn't everyone believe it? The conclusion: they must be rejecting it.

 

I understand exactly what you are saying. I grew up going to church every Sunday, was baptised, confirmed, married in a church, continued attending church every Sunday into my 30's. But, there were always parts of the Bible I couldn't really take literally - the Creation story, Noah's Ark (you know, the usuals). As I got older, learned more, explored more I realized I didn't really believe in the literal truth of many other things either (including the Fall and Resurrection). It's not that I don't want to believe, its not that I don't try to believe, I just can't. Although, I think exploring on my own instead of constantly seeing what others think the "requirements" of Christianity are, might help.:tongue_smilie:

[Greta]

Paul, thank you so much for this post!

 

There is an unhealthy obsession with salvation in our country right now. Salvation is what it is all about, but if the goal is just to get to heaven and avoid hell then I think there is a problem. The Orthodox are concerned with becoming like Christ, becoming perfect.

 

Right - I do understand that with regards to my own walk: that it is not a matter of saying a certain prayer or holding a certain thought in my head or getting baptized and then "All done! I'm saved!" That's like buying a ticket to heaven. Nope.

 

I'm coming to Orthodoxy from (most recently - but it's been a convoluted journey) Buddhism. The belief in Buddhism is that the purpose of your life, your life's effort, is to become a Buddha. When I first heard of the Orthodox teaching of theosis, it seemed instantly recognizable to me. The details are obviously different, but the underlying idea is much the same. It might sound strange, but I feel very assured of my salvation (because I feel that loved by God) at the same time that I know that I will spend the rest of my life working it out with fear and trembling. Whatever happens to me when I die, I do feel that the purpose of my life is to bring my own will in alignment with God's, to submit my will to His. (Of course, knowing is only the first step, and it's a long row to hoe! And at this point, wow, I am nowhere close!)

 

I don't *think* that I was obsessing, nor do I think you were accusing me of it. But it is something I've wondered about before, and the other thread brought it to the forefront. Seemed like a good time to open it up for discussion.

 

If others are "saved" outside of the Church it is because of the death and resurrection of Jesus.

Yes, and to me that is the message of the scripture that I put in my first post. That anyone who is "saved" is so because of Christ. Edited August 7, 2010 by GretaLynne
changed my mind about what I wanted to say! ;-)

[Greta]

To add some more to that....why do people want to know so much, that wihch they cant possibly know? Because of fear. Wouldnt it be better to face that fear, than make stuff up just to feel secure?

 

I'll just have to respectfully disagree. I do not think that fear is the best answer to your question. I think that the desire to know and understand is just an intrinsic part of being human. It's part of who we are. There are times when it is best to let a mystery be a mystery. But I don't think that means that the questions aren't worth asking.

[Greta]

I wanted to thank absolutely everyone who has posted in this thread. I appreciate being able to work through some of my thoughts with all of you. And whether we agree or share the same p.o.v. or not, you have helped me do that. I feel more firmly convicted than ever that God is infinitely just and infinitely merciful, and that while that may be difficult or even impossible for me to fully understand, I can trust Him to work it all out.

[EKS]

I am not sure I understand. If you mean people had a part to play (or there is a history) then yes it is a at least partly a human construct. There is nothing wrong with that. God worked through man in history. How would you know if something is a human construct? What does that mean?

 

We are on the Well Trained Mind board why would we not want to know more. It seems like the more we know the less we would have to make up. I study so I do not have to make it up on my own.

 

Edit: I was on my wife's account. I meant to post under Father of Pearl. Still getting use to this new fangled technology. :)

 

By human construct I mean that humans made it up. I think they made it up to explain what they had no explanation for, and I think they made it up to make themselves feel less afraid of the unknown. And I think the people who had "visions" of god and angels and whatever else were actually very charismatic individuals who were having psychotic episodes assuming they were being honest about having visions in the first place.

 

But just because I think this doesn't make it true. And just because Christians believe something doesn't make it true. And just because it's written in the Bible doesn't make it true. I don't think any human can ever know what the truth is. And I'm ok with it all being a big mystery, though if I ever had the chance to learn the truth, I'd probably jump on it.

[Kari C in SC]

:grouphug:

 

Kari I think you gave your son a beautiful gift by passing along what you had experienced in your faith journey. When we talk about people having doubts' date=' we can easily talk about the apostles even. Thomas of course comes to mind, and how about Peter denying he even knew Him? We are only human. God loves each and every one of us. Honestly, from what you've shared about your son, I have no doubt that he's either already in Heaven, or in the "waiting room". I love Padre Pio - he's a Saint who lived an incredible life, and is still doing so much to get more and more people into heaven. Before he died, he told people that he won't enter into heaven until everyone who has asked for his help is already there. I take great comfort in this. If you read about him, there are so many true and amazing stories of how he protected his little town in Italy during the war. He would appear in the sky in front of a plane scheduled to drop bombs on his town, and tell them to turn around. Other times, bombs were dropped, but never exploded. His town was untouched during the war when all around it was bombed.

 

Our Lord is so Merciful and loving. If Timmy isn't already with him, he will be one day soon. It sounds like he probably lived his purgatory on earth with what he had to see and experience in Iraq. If he's already there, you have a powerful advocate for you and your husband, and if he's not yet, your prayers for him will make his time in purgatory shorter. Don't let anyone tell you that he's not going to heaven because he didn't know what to believe. Satan believed fully in God, and look where he is. It's choices we make, and I believe that even the worst of us can ask God for His mercy and forgiveness at the time of death, and be saved. Remember the "good thief"? We know from Jesus' words to him what his fate was. Jesus came to call us sinners.

 

Like you, I don't know why bad things happen to good people. But I do know that God has a way of making good come out of bad. You found your faith when faced with your tragedy, and it's that faith that has been giving you the strength to get through the loss of your son. Trust in Him. :)[/quote']

 

Thank you for your kind words. It helps me a lot! :001_smile:

[Lovedtodeath]

I understand exactly what you are saying. I grew up going to church every Sunday, was baptised, confirmed, married in a church, continued attending church every Sunday into my 30's. But, there were always parts of the Bible I couldn't really take literally - the Creation story, Noah's Ark (you know, the usuals). As I got older, learned more, explored more I realized I didn't really believe in the literal truth of many other things either (including the Fall and Resurrection). It's not that I don't want to believe, its not that I don't try to believe, I just can't. Although, I think exploring on my own instead of constantly seeing what others think the "requirements" of Christianity are, might help.:tongue_smilie:

Reading some things written by Ken Ham may help. I find that I still don't believe everything that he believes, but getting some science and Bible together does help. Michael Oard and Ruth Beechick are helpful as well, particularly when it comes to explaining the flood, ice ages and mankind's history.

 

It might sound strange, but I feel very assured of my salvation (because I feel that loved by God) at the same time that I know that I will spend the rest of my life working it out with fear and trembling. Whatever happens to me when I die, I do feel that the purpose of my life is to bring my own will in alignment with God's, to submit my will to His. (Of course, knowing is only the first step, and it's a long row to hoe! And at this point, wow, I am nowhere close!)

 

Yes, and to me that is the message of the scripture that I put in my first post. That anyone who is "saved" is so because of Christ.

:iagree:

I feel more firmly convicted than ever that God is infinitely just and infinitely merciful, and that while that may be difficult or even impossible for me to fully understand, I can trust Him to work it all out.

Yes. This. The book "Draw Close to Jehovah" really helped me with this.

[Wayfaring Stranger]

And I think the people who had "visions" of god and angels and whatever else were actually very charismatic individuals who were having psychotic episodes assuming they were being honest about having visions in the first place.

 

 

 

I would rather look at the evidence that is knowable and follow it where it leads than to diagnose people who have been dead for almost 2000 years as psychotic or liars. If the people who knew the individuals did not think they were psychotic or lying, why should I even entertain that now?

[EKS]

I would rather look at the evidence that is knowable and follow it where it leads than to diagnose people who have been dead for almost 2000 years as psychotic or liars. If the people who knew the individuals did not think they were psychotic or lying, why should I even entertain that now?

 

Then why is it that we have no modern prophets?

 

I think that psychosis was not regarded in the same way then as it is today in our society. If they were psychotic, they weren't regarded as such because there was no such label. If they were lying, well, maybe they were good at it.

 

As I've said before, this is just what I think and I could be completely wrong. And that's ok.

 

So what evidence from 2000 years ago is knowable?

[Peela]

I'll just have to respectfully disagree. I do not think that fear is the best answer to your question. I think that the desire to know and understand is just an intrinsic part of being human. It's part of who we are. There are times when it is best to let a mystery be a mystery. But I don't think that means that the questions aren't worth asking.

 

Yes....asking the questions and looking for the answers is very much a part of human nature. amd a wonderful part.

Drawing conclusions in order to feel secure is the bit I am referring to. The more you look and ask, if you are being truthful, IMO, the more you realise the answers are unknowable and the more you open to the vast unknown that is life- and keep opening. As Socrates said- the more you know, the more you realise you dont know. It doesn't mean you stop asking but you dont try to rest anywhere because there is no where to rest- it is not possible to draw a conclusion, it is only possible to believe you are right. Once you draw conclusions and claim your conclusion is correct, or more correct than others, in order to feel secure, that's when that wonderful open curiosity and acceptance of life as it is, is replaced by dogma and fundamentalism, in all its forms.

No one knows.

[ThatCyndiGirl]

Yes....asking the questions and looking for the answers is very much a part of human nature. amd a wonderful part.

Drawing conclusions in order to feel secure is the bit I am referring to. The more you look and ask, if you are being truthful, IMO, the more you realise the answers are unknowable and the more you open to the vast unknown that is life- and keep opening. As Socrates said- the more you know, the more you realise you dont know. It doesn't mean you stop asking but you dont try to rest anywhere because there is no where to rest- it is not possible to draw a conclusion, it is only possible to believe you are right. Once you draw conclusions and claim your conclusion is correct, or more correct than others, in order to feel secure, that's when that wonderful open curiosity and acceptance of life as it is, is replaced by dogma and fundamentalism, in all its forms.

No one knows.

 

 

Very well said.

[asta]

By human construct I mean that humans made it up. I think they made it up to explain what they had no explanation for, and I think they made it up to make themselves feel less afraid of the unknown. And I think the people who had "visions" of god and angels and whatever else were actually very charismatic individuals who were having psychotic episodes assuming they were being honest about having visions in the first place.

 

But just because I think this doesn't make it true. And just because Christians believe something doesn't make it true. And just because it's written in the Bible doesn't make it true. I don't think any human can ever know what the truth is. And I'm ok with it all being a big mystery, though if I ever had the chance to learn the truth, I'd probably jump on it.

 

There is a very interesting book out there called The End of Faith by Sam Harris. When you first look at it, you think: "this is political science, what does this have to do with what I'm talking about?" Oh, but it does...

 

A psychiatrist friend of mine recommended it to me a long time ago. Quite a paradigm shifter, that book.

 

;)

 

 

a

[Marylou]

There is a very interesting book out there called The End of Faith by Sam Harris. When you first look at it, you think: "this is political science, what does this have to do with what I'm talking about?" Oh, but it does...

 

A psychiatrist friend of mine recommended it to me a long time ago. Quite a paradigm shifter, that book.

 

;)

 

 

a

 

I've read Sam's book, and his worldview is um . . . a little conflicted.

 

From your link:

 

Sam Harris cranks out blunt, hard-hitting chapters to make his case for why faith itself is the most dangerous element of modern life. And if the devil's in the details, then you'll find Satan waiting at the back of the book in the very substantial notes section where Harris saves his more esoteric discussions to avoid sidetracking the urgency of his message.

 

From Wikipedia:

 

Harris wishes to incorporate spirituality in the domain of human reason. He draws inspiration from the practices of Eastern religion, in particular that of meditation, as described principally by Hindu and Buddhist practitioners. By paying close attention to moment-to-moment conscious experience, Harris suggests, it is possible to make our sense of "self" vanish and thereby uncover a new state of personal well-being. Moreover, Harris argues that such states of mind should be subjected to formal scientific investigation, without incorporating the myth and superstition that often accompanies meditation in the religious context. "There is clearly no greater obstacle to a truly empirical approach to spiritual experience than our current beliefs about God," he writes.

[Smithie]

The word on the street over here is that all of the righteous have a share in the world to come. :D

 

If there is one.

 

Who can know?

 

(Jews may not fear hellfire, but we can angst it up with the best of them.)

[Guest janainaz]

Yes....asking the questions and looking for the answers is very much a part of human nature. amd a wonderful part.

Drawing conclusions in order to feel secure is the bit I am referring to. The more you look and ask, if you are being truthful, IMO, the more you realise the answers are unknowable and the more you open to the vast unknown that is life- and keep opening. As Socrates said- the more you know, the more you realise you dont know. It doesn't mean you stop asking but you dont try to rest anywhere because there is no where to rest- it is not possible to draw a conclusion, it is only possible to believe you are right. Once you draw conclusions and claim your conclusion is correct, or more correct than others, in order to feel secure, that's when that wonderful open curiosity and acceptance of life as it is, is replaced by dogma and fundamentalism, in all its forms.

No one knows.

 

:iagree::iagree:

[freethinkermama]

I've read Sam's book, and his worldview is um . . . a little conflicted.

 

From your link:

 

Sam Harris cranks out blunt, hard-hitting chapters to make his case for why faith itself is the most dangerous element of modern life. And if the devil's in the details, then you'll find Satan waiting at the back of the book in the very substantial notes section where Harris saves his more esoteric discussions to avoid sidetracking the urgency of his message.

 

From Wikipedia:

 

Harris wishes to incorporate spirituality in the domain of human reason. He draws inspiration from the practices of Eastern religion, in particular that of meditation, as described principally by Hindu and Buddhist practitioners. By paying close attention to moment-to-moment conscious experience, Harris suggests, it is possible to make our sense of "self" vanish and thereby uncover a new state of personal well-being. Moreover, Harris argues that such states of mind should be subjected to formal scientific investigation, without incorporating the myth and superstition that often accompanies meditation in the religious context. "There is clearly no greater obstacle to a truly empirical approach to spiritual experience than our current beliefs about God," he writes.

 

Only if one sees a conflict between meditation and mindfulness drawn from some spiritual practices and a my-way-or-the-highway dogmatism about a deity.

[tjlcc]

Are you a good person?

 

 

[ThatCyndiGirl]

:lol:

 

Oh, great, a WayOfTheMaster site. THAT should clear EVERYTHING right on up! :svengo:

 

Mr. "There must be a god since the coke can has a creator"..... :001_huh:

[Caitilin]

Sorry for the brief hijack, but I want to thank whoever it was who posted the link to the EO church's vision of ancestral vs. original sin. I think this is the best theology I have read in ages.

[Teachin'Mine]

Then why is it that we have no modern prophets?

 

I think that psychosis was not regarded in the same way then as it is today in our society. If they were psychotic, they weren't regarded as such because there was no such label. If they were lying, well, maybe they were good at it.

 

As I've said before, this is just what I think and I could be completely wrong. And that's ok.

 

So what evidence from 2000 years ago is knowable?

 

There are! :)

 

This article is interesting - if you're interested in learning more about the scientific studies done on the Medjugorje visionaries, let me know and I'll find some other links.

 

http://ministryvalues.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=310&Itemid=338

[Ame E.]

From your post, it sounds like you are overemphasizing the intellectual.. Orthodox like Catholics have sacraments... Consent is your consent and desire to join the Church... and to get closer to Christ through the sacraments. You consent or ask to be baptized and confirmed, receive holy communion and go to confession... This is how you accept/interact with Christ in a physical as well as intellectual way. The whole of you interacts with Christ (body, mind and soul)... they are not divided into parts..

 

Does this help?

 

Also, I would encourage you to bring your questions to the priest giving you religious instruction.

Edited August 8, 2010 by Ame E.

[ereks mom]

I haven't read all the posts in this thread, so if someone else already said this, please forgive me for repeating (but it's so important that it bears repeating):

 

Yes, Christ is the only way to God. And the only way to Christ is by accepting His invitation to be in a relationship with Him. It's not about who you are or who your parents are (even if they are Christians), who people think you are, how much money you make (or don't make), what you do for a living, how you behave, how you treat other people, how you treat animals, how "green" you are, how much (or how little) education you have, whether you obey the Ten Commandments, whether you go to church (no matter how regularly or how often you attend), whether you give money to the church (even if you give all you have), whether you support charities, or any of those other criteria by which people often judge other people.

 

People might see you doing all kinds of wonderful things and think that you are "Christlike"--yes, Christians are supposed to be Christlike--but having Christlike behavior is not what makes you a Christian. Being a Christian is not about being a "good person"; it's not about doing anything. It's about your relationship with Jesus Christ-- knowing Him. So, no, you cannot be a Christian and not know Christ because that is what being a Christian is.

 

The only way to be a Christian is to know Christ--to have a relationship with him. Having a relationship with Him means He knows you and you know Him--which is not at all the same as knowing about Him. I know about the queen of England; I accept the fact that she is the queen, I believe that she has prestige and power, etc. But I do not know her; she and I do not have a relationship.

 

In the same way, you can know all about Christ (you can read the Bible every day, you can study theology until you are an expert), you can recognize that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and you can believe that He has majesty and ominipotence, but that is not at all the same as knowing Him personally and having a relationship with Him.

 

So, how do you have a relationship with Christ? Well, you do that the same way you have a relationship with anyone else. You communicate with Him (talk to Him by praying; AND listen for Him to speak to you through what you read in the Bible and through other Christians such as preachers and teachers). You open your heart and love Him , and allow Him to love you too.

 

ETA: I should clarify that the last paragraph above assumes that you are already a Christian, and describes how to nurture your relationship with Christ. This is not the same as "how to become a Christian".

Edited August 10, 2010 by ereks mom

[ereks mom]

The Bible clearly states that Jesus is the only way to heaven. If all we had to do is feel good or drawn to moral things then why did Jesus come to the earth to die for our sins? If you don't believe here, why would God give you a chance to accept Christ after you die? I don't understand this line of reasoning. It seems like you are trying to fit God and the message of salvation into your own little box.

 

We are all sinners. We have all done things wrong. Sin separates us from God. Jesus came to shed His holy, innocent blood to pay for those sins. But we have to accept that gift. If you don't then when you die, you will go to hell. The Bible is very clear on that. I am not trying to be harsh, but that is the reality of it.

 

I do not believe that infants/young children/mentally incapacitated people will go to hell. I believe that there is an age of accountability that is different for each individual. After you come to the point that you understand that you are a sinner and fully understand the difference between right and wrong, then you need to make a choice. If you do not make the choice FOR Christ, then you have chosen to reject Him. Those who reject Him will not be welcome into heaven.

 

I know this is not what you want to believe, but God is a God of justice. He is also a God of mercy, which is why He sent His only Son into the world to save the world.

 

John 3:16 says "For God so loved the world, that he sent His only begotten Son that whosoever believeth in Him, should not perish, but have everlasting life."

 

A choice must be made. If you choose to do nothing, you have still chosen.

 

:iagree:

[Wayfaring Stranger]

Then why is it that we have no modern prophets?

 

I think that psychosis was not regarded in the same way then as it is today in our society. If they were psychotic, they weren't regarded as such because there was no such label. If they were lying, well, maybe they were good at it.

 

As I've said before, this is just what I think and I could be completely wrong. And that's ok.

 

So what evidence from 2000 years ago is knowable?

 

There are modern day prophets all over the place. I just read today in The Irresistible Revolution that Shane Claiborne (I know Shane in college but had never read his books before) has seen angles and demons. I think he is very sane and do not know him to lie. In my tradition St John of San Francisco comes to mind. There are Saints of many types in all times.

 

About 18 years ago I went with some friends to hear a prophet teach at a Rivers of Live Church in Duncan, OK. I was able to see something about a strangers life that I did not and could not have known. It was not profound and it may not even have been from God but it happened.

 

As for the evidence here is a link to someone smarter than myself looking at the evidence for the resurrection of Jesus it is the first of a three part series.

 

A short version of the podcast is that around 33 AD a large group (at least 500 people) claimed to have seen Jesus after his death. They claimed he taught radical things like Love your enemy, the first will be last and women are equal to men. Many of his teachings had never been taught before. They also claimed he was God. Most gained nothing for teaching these ideas and many were martyred. There writings about him were similar but had inconsistency that indicate that the stories were written based on independent sources and not by a small organized group trying to trick everyone else.

 

The Shroud of Turin is a basically a photograph of the resurrection and the Dead Sea Scrolls attest to the ability of a text (namely the Greek Old Testament) to avoid any significant change in over 2150 years.

[ereks mom]

But God isn't just a God of justice. He is a holy God.

 

He is BOTH.

 

Isaiah 5:16 (New International Version)

16 But the LORD Almighty will be exalted by his justice,

and the holy God will show himself holy by his righteousness.

 

 

Deuteronomy 32:4 (New International Version)

4 He is the Rock, his works are perfect,

and all his ways are just.

A faithful God who does no wrong,

upright and just is he.

 

 

1 Samuel 2:2 (New International Version)

2 "There is no one holy like the LORD;

there is no one besides you;

there is no Rock like our God.

[Wayfaring Stranger]

Yes....asking the questions and looking for the answers is very much a part of human nature. amd a wonderful part.

Drawing conclusions in order to feel secure is the bit I am referring to. The more you look and ask, if you are being truthful, IMO, the more you realise the answers are unknowable and the more you open to the vast unknown that is life- and keep opening. As Socrates said- the more you know, the more you realise you dont know. It doesn't mean you stop asking but you dont try to rest anywhere because there is no where to rest- it is not possible to draw a conclusion, it is only possible to believe you are right. Once you draw conclusions and claim your conclusion is correct, or more correct than others, in order to feel secure, that's when that wonderful open curiosity and acceptance of life as it is, is replaced by dogma and fundamentalism, in all its forms.

No one knows.

 

How do you know that there is no place to land? What if the truth wants to be known? What if the truth is trying to reveal itself to us? What if the unknowable became a man?

[Greta]

Yes....asking the questions and looking for the answers is very much a part of human nature. amd a wonderful part.

Drawing conclusions in order to feel secure is the bit I am referring to. The more you look and ask, if you are being truthful, IMO, the more you realise the answers are unknowable and the more you open to the vast unknown that is life- and keep opening. As Socrates said- the more you know, the more you realise you dont know. It doesn't mean you stop asking but you dont try to rest anywhere because there is no where to rest- it is not possible to draw a conclusion, it is only possible to believe you are right. Once you draw conclusions and claim your conclusion is correct, or more correct than others, in order to feel secure, that's when that wonderful open curiosity and acceptance of life as it is, is replaced by dogma and fundamentalism, in all its forms.

No one knows.

 

Thanks for explaining, Peela, and I apologize for misunderstanding. I always enjoy your posts so much - I like the way you express your thoughts. But this time I'll still have to disagree. I think your agnosticism is as much of an assumption as you think my faith is. :001_smile: But I'm perfectly okay with that! I'm not on a crusade to convince anyone, and I do enjoy hearing perspectives that differ from my own. It's dull to be surrounded by people who completely agree with you . . . and probably not good for character growth either! :D

[Greta]

The whole of you interacts with Christ (body, mind and soul)... they are not divided into parts..

 

Does this help?

 

Yes! Beautifully said and much appreciated.

 

Also, I would encourage you to bring your questions to the priest giving you religious instruction.

 

Oh, I bug him with questions on a weekly basis! :lol:

[Greta]

You communicate with Him (talk to Him by praying; AND listen for Him to speak to you through what you read in the Bible and through other Christians such as preachers and teachers). You open your heart and love Him , and allow Him to love you too.

 

:001_smile: Thank you!

[Greta]

Perhaps you should ask your priest about this (above).

 

I had hoped to do so today. But my daughter was not feeling well, so we ended up leaving before the liturgy was even over. I will see him Wednesday, though, and will ask him then.

[Greta]

I struggle with this because dh is atheist. He has always wanted to believe (his dad is a minister and was a chaplain in the Army) but he doesn't. Those on the outside don't really get how hard it is for someone who wants nothing more than to believe in God but doesn't. It is so unbelievably hard for them and those that love them. My dh prays every.single.night.without fail with our dds. He reads to them from the Bible and discusses (he knows more about the Bible than many Christians today) with them any topic they wish. Our dds don't know their dad doesn't believe the same things they do regarding faith and he doesn't want them to. He has said he wants them to have that faith and belief. I have a very hard time fathoming how someone like him who strives to know God and leads his daughters in the Christian faith will not end up in Heaven with us.

 

Your dh sounds like an amazing father. How wonderful that he is trying so hard to give his daughters the gift of faith. And I agree completely with your last sentence.

[Joker]

Your dh sounds like an amazing father. How wonderful that he is trying so hard to give his daughters the gift of faith. And I agree completely with your last sentence.

 

Thank you so much!

[Rosie_0801]

How do you know that there is no place to land?

 

I don't know. I can't know. So I go with my personal preference.

 

What if the truth wants to be known?

I don't suppose I think that things that *just are* want anything in particular. But if Truth was something with desires, I daresay it would do as the rest of us do, and act on them. If Truth wants me to be aware of it, it is really Truth's responsibility to do something about it.

 

What if the truth is trying to reveal itself to us?

Well, manners dictate we should listen politely. And like a lot of things we listen politely to, we're not obliged to buy or agree. Truth should also have manners and accept "Thanks, but now's not the time."

 

What if the unknowable became a man?

To be quite frank, that'd be weird! I know many here would claim it has been done, but it doesn't happen often so it would still be weird if it happened.

 

:)

Rosie

Edited August 9, 2010 by Rosie_0801

[Jyniffrec]

 

I don't suppose I think that things that *just are* want anything in particular. But if Truth was something with desires, I daresay it would do as the rest of us do, and act on them. If Truth wants me to be aware of it, it is really Truth's responsibility to do something about it.

 

 

 

I daresay Truth has done something about it by coming to earth as both God and man but he is polite enough not to force you to believe it.

 

Rosie, I your respect your right to reject truth. :001_smile:

[Jyniffrec]

It is believed that the Holy Spirit guided/inspired those old white men in choosing which books made it into the Canon.

 

I believe Athanasius, the one who gave us the canon as we have it now, was a short black guy. :) In fact, I can't think of one white man who had anything to do with the creation of the Bible. They were all either from the Middle East or were Mediterranean.

[asta]

I believe Athanasius, the one who gave us the canon as we have it now, was a short black guy. :) In fact, I can't think of one white man who had anything to do with the creation of the Bible. They were all either from the Middle East or were Mediterranean.

 

Have you ever seen the movie Dogma? Chris Rock as Rufus, the only black apostle, and, as such, had been taken out of the bible? Priceless.

 

 

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