Parenting SOS question for 17yo dd (deceit, rebellion); PLS reply if you have BTDT...

[74Heaven]

Hi, I have a 17.5yo dtr who is rebellious. But her "crimes" are mild compared to what one might think of a rebellious teen. There is no drinking, smoking, drugs, etc etc etc.

 

The main problem is lying. Constantly. Over everything. EVERYTHING. And zero real repentance. Just empty apologies. Which she insists are genuine apologies.

 

She lies daily about chores, homework that is completed, what her boss says at work (i.e. I *need* you this shift*), her workhours, where she went in our car, what we did/did not tell her to do...

 

Here's the latest scenario. We took away her driving privleges in December when we found out she was texting while she was driving and she had went to fast food with our family car when the agreement was to drive to work and home only. We also took away her cell phone because of the texting while driving (like it was the last straw) and 3 months worth of $200 cell phone bills due to unallowed use and repeated problems. Yes, we took *every* precaution and a few nights we didn't remember to double-check to see that she had given us her phone when she arrived home... (We used cell tools (chaperone and blocking) to no avail.) She denied everything, and lies. She tells the truth only when forced - only to tell what we already know and confront her with. We're talking to cover up everything. A separate time a few weeks earlier, she had taken our car to the library and in addition, went shopping and fast food w/o our permission and we had given her a strong verbal warning. (That was not the first time either.

 

Feb. We give back her driving privledge. She has permission to drive to the doctor's office, gas station and to work. (40miles RT) We go over it specifically. We give her a cell phone that has all calls and texting blocked except to home and a few other acceptable #s. That night, she is acting weird (like opening the bedroom door 4" when I ask to come in and talk to her. I insist on coming in - she lies that "she is hiding anything" and low and behold, she has a brand new cellphone.) She had driven to work, her Bank College Savings Account , taken $100 (not allowed tho she saved the money) and the Shopping Mall along with the other places! She was also TEXTING either while driving home on this new cell phone. She also LIED about working late. I told her to call me when she got off work at 630p and she called at 710p. She made up a story when she called me about there being a different posted schedule than the one she had told me and that she had worked til 7p. Turns out she was programming her new cell phone from 630-7p and making a few calls on it.

 

Our usual arrangement is "you have permission to drive to work and home; no stops. Call us when you leave work." We live 20miles away in a rural location, including a notoriously dangerous 10mile stretch of highway.

 

Yesterday, I picked her up from her Christian school Homeschool co op and she says. "I got a C on my PreCalc test." Not thinking much of anything, I said, "Oh what grade did you get?" She says, "69". This begins an argument where I insist a 69 is not a C and she insists (wrongly) that it is a C "maybe a C-" on their grading scale. I know this is wrong because I have their grading scale and it is very similar to ours. And 69 is a D or D- on our scale - and a "Do over". Finally after about 3 minutes, I said, (I'm driving), let me see the test. She's annoyed and she pulls it out and then says, "oops I guess it was a "67". I finally get her to admit that she KNEW the grading scale would not make a 69 or 67 a "C" and that she had lied about the grade because she thought I might be mad and yell. I point out that she had just lied about something that I hadn't even asked about - i.e. she "brought up" the subject of her test. I pointed out that she just made up a story and made up a lie completely of her own decision and making. She takes about 3-4 minutes to admit that this is what occurred.

 

OK, so what would you do. I told her she will NOT keep the cell phone - we let her keep the jeans the first time she went to a store w/o our permission in our car. The next time, we took the items we bought and this time we'll do the same thing. She's out about $75 for the cell phone and minutes she bought. Her dad and I have talked and we are going to ground her only a short time this time and prob. make her quit her job if the lying while out in our car continues.

 

This is the same girl who flunked out in early-enrollment last Fall (09) at the local community college. She also chose a not-acting-like-Christians set of friends as soon as she had the chance.

 

My main question is the Lying.... She accepted the Lord as a youngster, chose to be baptized when she was 14yo (we make the kids wait for it to be more of a mature decision); goes to Bible club weekly and church. But, she really, really struggles (and makes our life miserable) with her lying. IOW, she professes to be a Christian although we certainly see this as a besetting sin. We are a conservative Christian family and we try to live out our faith.

 

What can/should we do to help with the lying? I see immaturity as a problem here as well. She is ADD but a very good student BECAUSE I have made her work so hard at homeschooling for 12 years. Without me pushing her she would prob. be a "C" student. She has a 3.4 gpa and an academically challenging schedule.

 

I might add that all of her bad decisions makes her social life pretty dull. She is not "grounded" from friends, but in her social circle, texting and phoning is huge and she is not "sought out" by her friends so much as she "seeks them out". I know a side problem is loneliness but at the same time, we are extremely displeased with her community college friends (they talk about such things as drinking parties, sneaking out of the house, trying to get her a boyfriend and these friends have boy/girl "not s*x" they say - sleepovers) so we have not encouraged those friendships.

 

Her strong Christian friends are busy with homework, family and don't seem so "socially driven" as my dtr. Furthermore, they all seem about 2 yrs ahead in maturity....

 

IF you have BTDT, please let me know your thoughts.

lisaj

[Guest Dulcimeramy]

Is she justified in fearing that you will be very angry and yell at her? Do you yell at her?

 

I see a common thread in these lies. 100% of them seem to be about wanting permission to move freely and make her own choices in reasonable ways.

 

You have a problem, to be sure, and lying is very evil, but OTOH you are really, really controlling her as if she were 12 instead of 17.

 

Should it really be forbidden to stop for fast food? She can't stop at the library, either? Should she really not be allowed to use the money that she earned and saved (at 17) to buy a phone with texting capability?

 

Is she justified in fearing that you will yell at her for the truth about her grade? Do you yell at her, on top of trying to control her to this degree?

 

You don't owe me any response, of course, but I wondered if you'd considered it from this angle. Answering these questions for yourself may help.

 

For the record, I am extremely strict and diligently supervise my children. But I try to never forget that I left home at 17, and managed my apartment, job, car, and everything very well. I also mildly rebelled and lied to my mother as a teen, because I was just trying to do normal things on my own time and her rule list was unreasonable and suspicious. I began to avoid the questioning, by lying if that was the only way.

 

Thankfully, she quit her persistent denial about problems at home, and let me go. It was hard for both of us but certainly the right decision.

 

I am not saying you should encourage your daughter to leave home at 17. Absolutely not. But can't she decide at 17 if she'll stop for a soda or go to the library? Lighten up or you might lose her. With her "mild rebellion" and lying, she is warning you.

[Carrie12345]

I wasn't going to post because I haven't btdt as a parent, but I have as a teenager and I mostly agree with Dulcimeramy. It sounds to me that (as much as it may be the wrong way) she's simply trying to be a teenager. If she can't have any freedom at 17.5, I'm not sure how she will know how to be an adult at 18... or 20, or wherever that line is supposed to be drawn.

[Karen in CO]

a couple of points. Would you feel different abut her lying if she had never been baptized a Christian? Also, my sister always lied about her whereabouts to our parents because she knew they would have not let her go where she wanted to. She lied about her grades because she wanted to avoid the consequences of her grades. I realized my ds started doing the same thing at some point - it is easier to lie than to face parents that 'don't understand you.'

 

I had a serious discussion with my son about his behavior, and I stopped letting him lie. I never allowed him to do something that I couldn't verify, and I followed up with verifying everything including drup testing him when I suspected he was hanging out with kids that did drugs. The key was that I acknowledged that he was a near-adult and not a child. I instigated a policy of allowing him to go places as long as I knew where he was and could verify it even if it was not what I would have chosen. I separated my value judgments about his friends and activities from my concern for his safety. I also told him he would not be allowed to live in my house if he did x,y, or z, and he believed that I would follow through (he probably believed it more than I did).

 

I drove my ds everywhere for a while. It was a pain for me, but better than knowing that he would lie about where he was. There are also devices you can install in a car that will act as a nanny. They will record where your car goes and at what speed. You can even monitor many of them on the internet. You can get a phone plan with no text minutes.

 

The relationship with this near-adult that you live with needs to be a priority. You need to figure out a way to treat each other with respect. Punishment isn't going to fix the problem.

[Orthodox6]

Not agreeing with Dulcimeramy for some thoughts. Do agree for some.

 

Texting while driving can result in death.

Buying a phone, with money earmarked for college (if such funds were set aside by the parents), behind the parents' backs, and attempting to deceive parents about the purchase and use, is wrong.

Running up a $200 bill is thoughtless theft of family resources, at best.

Habitual lying hurts everybody.

 

That the girl spends time in Christian activities is irrelevant. I have to say that. Kids "go skid" from all sorts of home environments, just as kids from the worst scenarios often turn out splendidly.

 

Your parenting style does sound as if it leans toward the "overbearing". (Calling home when leaving work is not necessary.) (Stopping to grab a drive-through meal on the way home, if feeling very hungry, takes only 5 minutes.) I can understand how you feel that you are "driven" to it because of the unsettled relationship with your dd.

 

Trying to "read between the lines", though, it comes across -- whether that be the actual case, or not -- as if you micromanaged her homeschooling, placing performance expectations too high for the reality of an ADD student. Has she received support all these years for her ADD, whether by means of medication to help with focusing, or by means of behaviour techniques? In addition, -- and parents grimace to acknowledge this -- sometimes a "C" grade is what a student is going to earn. This may be because the particular subject matter is not one at which the student can excel, sometimes it is because the student has not tried hard enough, sometimes it is because the teacher (even a homeschool parent) has not taught the material "learnably". Sometimes a "C" grade (or even lower, at times) simply is how life goes. It is not an issue to stew over.

 

Perhaps there is an adult in your daughter's life, someone whom she has a positive relationship with, whom you could brainstorm with -- even to serve as a "mediator" for productive (which means calm, non-attacking) conversations involving you, dd, dh, and "mentor".

 

Best wishes for working through the assorted difficulties !

Edited February 26, 2010 by Orthodox6

[Mrs Mungo]

I might add that all of her bad decisions makes her social life pretty dull. She is not "grounded" from friends, but in her social circle, texting and phoning is huge and she is not "sought out" by her friends so much as she "seeks them out". I know a side problem is loneliness but at the same time, we are extremely displeased with her community college friends (they talk about such things as drinking parties, sneaking out of the house, trying to get her a boyfriend and these friends have boy/girl "not s*x" they say - sleepovers) so we have not encouraged those friendships.

 

My eldest is only 14. So, we haven't gone through exactly what you're describing. You say you haven't encouraged her community college friendships (and I can understand why). But have you fostered other friendships? Are you friends with the moms from the homeschool group or with the moms of the teens at church? In homeschool/church groups I find that the teens are friends with people with whom the families are friends. Do you do things as a family with homeschool/church families?

[Guest Dulcimeramy]

Just to clarify, I certainly wouldn't justify the texting while driving or the lying or any of it. Wrong is wrong. My only point is that chipping away at these behaviors one by one might not be the way to fix the relationship.

[Mrs Mungo]

Just to clarify, I certainly wouldn't justify the texting while driving or the lying or any of it. Wrong is wrong. My only point is that chipping away at these behaviors one by one might not be the way to fix the relationship.

 

Is she allowed to text/call her friends while she is at home? I can't tell from the OP. My 14 year old has a cell phone that she pays for out of allowance/babysitting money. She is allowed to call and text her friends as long as it isn't during school-time.

[Jean in Newcastle]

I was that 17 year old. When I was that age (and younger) I was at a Christian missionary boarding school. All of our movements and activities were monitored and proscribed. Most of us had understood the basic gospel message at a young age and had believed for ourselves. But the focus of our teaching after that (both Bible and practical life skills) was on what not to do. We were not taught how to think in a godly manner. We were not allowed to have honest debate about drinking, smoking, sex, or even theological subjects. I remember having an honest question about why Christians need to go to church. I was blasted out of the water for having a rebellious questioning attitude. If someone had just sat down and talked to me about what a benefit it is to receive teaching in God's word and regular fellowship with other believers, my "rebellious" question would have been answered.

 

I was a 'good' girl when I started boarding school. But after awhile of being so restricted and of having equally harsh punishments for little infractions as I would for big ones, I just went for the big infractions. I figured that I might as well do something that was worth being not trusted and grounded etc.

 

When I was a senior in high school, a very wise person came to our boarding school. He saw what was happening in the dorms (and with me particularly). He sat down with the boarding staff and talked to them about nurturing trustworthy behavior. Now, the staff started to talk to us about how they trusted us to make the right choices. We were encouraged to talk about not only how to make right choices but the attitudes behind them. They started to give us more lee-way in the little things - and guess what! We rose to the challenge! I remember how wonderful I felt when the dorm parents left me in charge of the dorm one night while they went out to dinner. They trusted me and I (who had lied and been so untrustworthy before) did not betray their trust.

 

Here's what I suggest. Figure out what is actually sinful and what is not. In my opinion, texting while driving is sinful because it breaks a law. Texting in and of itself, is not. Driving while under the influence etc. is sinful. Driving to the fast food place is not. Give her some lee-way and trust her to make some good choices. Give her some appropriate time to text her friends. If that is how her friends communicate with each other, then you are being unnecessarily restrictive to not allow her to communicate that way. Yes, I know that texting can lead to problems. At 17, she should be able to handle discussions of what is appropriate or not regarding content, length, cost. Prepare to have her make some mistakes. Isn't that what 17 is all about? Having the opportunity to try out making some decisions and making the smaller mistakes before they are totally out on their own?

 

Unless you are under such financial straits that every penny that she earns must go into the college fund, then give her some lee-way to have some appropriate spending money. Let her have time to go get a milk shake or buy some hair clips at the mall. Go with her and build up your relationship! At 17 she is old enough to be able to talk through how we make money decisions and time decisions.

 

Give her some time when she doesn't have to be accountable to you. Yes, if she is going to be over 15 min. late, she should call to tell you that she's going to swing by the drive-thru so that you don't worry about her. But trust her to make some of those small decisions on her own.

 

If she needs to be pushed to make good grades, make the pushing be the good kind. You know - "if you bring your grade up to a C (or a B) then we'll go on a shopping trip, just the two of us" kind of push. Be there to help give her support. Many ADD kids need help with organizational stuff. But she needs to start to take an interest in her own education at this age and she won't do it if she's being forced into it.

[Tidbits of Learning]

I think at 17.5 yrs old that you need to step back some. She is an adult in the eyes of the law in many states. If she wants a cell phone, let her buy it and pay for it. That is a simple solution to $200 cell phone bills in your name. She has already purchased a new phone in her name. Let her keep it and have the huge bill. It will be a life lesson.

Maybe she feels she has no choice but to lie. I would think at 17.5 yrs old that a stop at a fast food place isn't that out of line or picking up clothes at the mall even. I wouldn't think it would be necessary to give an account for my every move at that age.

You also mention that her grades are what they are b/c of you. You won't be there her whole life to make her do well at work and choose good friends for her. You will push her away at this rate.

Some of the best life lessons I have learned were the ones that my parents let me learn for myself. In other words, she is at a time in her life where it is time for you to step back and see if she sinks or swims and just be there to listen should she come to you.

[Diane in NH]

Well, I agree that at 17 a child should be given more freedom. But, with freedom comes responsibility. If you have caught her texting while driving, that to me is very serious. She could kill herself or someone else. It is every bit as dangerous as drunk driving, and some studies show even more dangerous. The lying absolutely is not acceptable. To me, she has to show that she is trying to be more responsible, and then you can both give in a little bit. At 17, it depends if the money she earns is just for her use. If you are planning on paying for her college, than to me you should be able to expect that she will help some with the payment and thus save. It really depends on the arrangement you both have. Lying, drives me crazy, though. So that, would really bother me.

[Jean in Newcastle]

I wanted to add something. Somewhere along the way it looks like (just from what you've written- obviously I don't know you or your daughter) you've become the enemy. And everyone knows that it is ok to lie to the enemy because that is part of protecting yourself. Yes, lying is a sin. But I think you will get more truth if you work on becoming her ally. If you come along beside her, telling her how it hurts you and hurts herself when she sins, then you are being her ally. If you come along beside her and brainstorm ways for her to have some independence while still demonstrating responsibility, then you are being her ally. If you go out of your way for her, inviting her friends to your house or going with them all to a good movie, or finding some ways to get together with those wholesome teens and their families, then you are being her ally because you are recognizing that God has given her a need for social activities. And it is up to you as her allies to help her find godly ways to meet that need.

[Chris in VA]

My son is 18. He's been in drug treatment (residential) and we've really been thru the ringer.

 

Here's what I see in your situation--it may not come out as gently as I would say it in real life, so just see me smiling and being tender, ok?:001_smile:

 

Our problems with Sky started when he was 12--his heart was wounded and we didn't recognize it, and it spiraled into very bad choices--friends, sex, drugs, lying, you name it. After outpatient, inpatient, day treatment, hospitalization, and residential treatment, we finally came to a place of mutual respect and trust. It took a long, long time. I am in recovery as much as he is--addiction is a family disease.

TG you don't have that as an issue, but rebellion is very, very tough. The trust being broken and the lying and family angst sounds pretty similar.

 

In your case I would:

 

Sit down with my husband w/o my dd and come up with a behavioral contract. In it I'd put what WE expect from HER and what SHE can expect from US.

 

In order to figure that out, I'd let go of some of the controls you are putting on her. It is reasonable to:

Let her get her own cell phone and use it as she chooses and pay for it using her own $.

Let her use her own $ for fast food and clothing--help her budget.

Give her a curfew.

Allow her to use the car more freely.

Allow her some leeway in calling you after work.

 

In return, I'd require her to:

 

Promise not to text while driving--phone in the back seat.

Save a percentage of her salary towards college (decide how much--again, make up a budget with her)

Call you if she is going to be a half hour or more late--assume your answer is no for any permissions unless she reaches you (this prevents the "I couldn't get a hold of you" argument).

Develop a study plan--set aside time to study, or a homework time, or however you handle it--so she knows her time budget, too.

 

YOU have to be ok with her making mistakes--I heartily recommend you start letting consequences come from the natural side--If you don't save for college, you have to take a loan. If you choose to hang with yucky friends, you risk your heart and your health. If you choose to run up a cell phone bill that is $200, you won't have the money for new clothes.

 

Give her an allowance via her own earnings. Deny her access to her savings acct. HELP her budget. Then LET HER EXPERIENCE what going over that budget does.

 

This is a scary way to parent, I know. I really, really know.

But you need to work on the relationship, give her choices, stop thinking you can parent by control, stop letting fear get in the way of her life, and let her go.

You will take away her need to lie.

You will allow her to self-correct her behavior.

 

It's worth it--really and truly.

[Orthodox6]

Chris, that is a super post !

[Irene Lynn]

I have been there, been that. :) I can relate to you my thinking and why I lied so much and what dynamics were at play, but I won't claim to know what you should do.

 

Our family was definitely Christian and very active. My parents had a lot of rules, so many that I could not seem to keep them, no matter how hard I tried. In the early years, I gave up trying. It hurt too much to be punished or disciplined or given that "looking-down-on-me" kind of look, when I had tried to obey. I, partly subconsciously, partly delibrately, decided that it was easier to be punished for lying than for having my own thoughts and acting on them. It didn't hurt as much and was always justified. Trust between us was broken. From both sides. My parents did not see how my trust in them was shattered, but it was. I in turn shattered their trust in me.

 

If you were to hear my parent's side of trying to deal with me (and I was similar to your dd, not doing any of the biggies, just constant lying.) and hear their choices, it might seem justified, BUT the real problem was the already shattered trust and relationship. I had no motivation to stop lying! My parent's rules were always for their benefit or were to try to get me to be and think like them. I say this as a 43yo woman without feeling any anger towards them. They thought that the way they thought was good, so I should think it, too. I wasn't done with malice, but it was misguided. They missed getting to know me and guide me and they missed challenging their own thoughts.

 

Here are a few questions that you don't need to answer. :) What are your goals? Now specifically, what are your goals for her as far as cell phone usage? Do you want her to do what you want or do you want her to make good choices herself? What if she is a child who has to learn things the hard way? Are you willing to let her learn that way? Are you wanting to protect the family car or your daughter or both? How can that work out in real life? Does she have the freedom to wrack up a bill along with the respect from you that will calmly assume that she will pay the bill. Not nag, not manipulate by facial expressions or hints that tell her that her decision was bad. I say that, because a compulsive liar, who does it to protect themselves, may need to make some bad decisions delibrately (though it may be subconscious, if that makes sense. It might not even make sense to the child.) to test to see if it is safe to make their very own good decisions without those decisions being seen as compliance, but just as decisions, period. For me it was not about compliance/rebellion, but rather as being seen as a person. That was what was behind the whole mess. Once I knew that I was safe to be me, the lying dropped off like water off a duck's back.

 

Does she know why the rules are there? And does she know and feel that the rules are there for her benefit or at least for concern and love for her? Is there anyway to give her more room to make decisions, both good and bad, but transfer the responsibility for those decisions to her. She would have more bills to pay, if she chose to go this route. She may not choose to pay, but that would be her decision.

 

Have you asked her about her choices and why she thinks they are good or at least why she would make those choices? This would be in a fact finding way, not a challenging way.

 

Just so you know, I lied to keep from getting hurt in a way that my parents never understood, but I also felt a lot of guilt. The fear of getting criticized was stronger than the guilt, until the fear went away. At that point the lying ceased to have any meaning, so I stopped.

 

I hope you all find some peace. It isn't easy being the parent or the child in these situations. :)

[Orthodox6]

Oh, goodness ! I sure did NOT reference those elements when I wrote that I'm in sync with some, but not all, of what you wrote ! I'm sorry if you thought I meant that.

 

O-6

 

Just to clarify, I certainly wouldn't justify the texting while driving or the lying or any of it. Wrong is wrong. My only point is that chipping away at these behaviors one by one might not be the way to fix the relationship.

[Parrothead]

I don't have a 17 and a half year old dd, but I was one just like your dd. I can tell you that in all likelihood you've got six months or less to get your relationship with your daughter healthy.

 

From the sound of what you have said, she is bugging out when she is 18.

 

I agree with the others, you'll have to allow her more freedom. Her money, her choice of purchases. Your car, your rules about how it is driven. If you do not want her driving through fast food, then tell her. But when she buys her own car you can not control where she goes with it. No texting on your dime, okay. But you can't tell her not to text on her dime and her time.

 

Yes, she is a Christian, but that is not all of who she is. She has to go out and experience different kinds of people. The more you push at the phone, car, friends, religion the more she is going to push away to get her independence.

 

I really wouldn't be surprised, from what you have posted, if the week she turns 18 she tells you that she has found a room mate and is going to live on her own.

 

ETA:

The fear of getting criticized was stronger than the guilt, until the fear went away. At that point the lying ceased to have any meaning, so I stopped.

Even now at 43 I still lie or tell half truths to my mom simply so I do not have to listen to how I'm doing it the wrong way. We will never have any kind of close relationship.

Edited February 26, 2010 by Parrothead

[KnitWit]

Oh (((Chris))) Great post...saying a prayer for your family.

 

Irene...I was you.

 

And, I have to agree with Parrothead (Chucki). I would expect her to disappear on her 18th.

 

And OP...saying a prayer for you too. I don't know you, so I don't KNOW that *you* are proud...but I have 6 kids and I know from experience it is hard to not let my pride keep me from making needed changes sometimes. I say that with a hug.

[74Heaven]

that dtr's consistent lying has "driven us" to have these restrictions.

 

I think in a lot of ways, we are dealing with a 17.5yo who acts like a 14-15yo in her maturity. When I talk with some of my friends, they say that what I am describing is trouble they had with their kids when they were 13,14,15,16yos.

 

The lying has caused dtr to lose our trust. She lies over everything....

 

I want to make that clear. Everything is a lie. There is nothing where we can trust what comes out of her mouth as true without checking on it. Homework, sibling arguments, if that is hers/sister's shirt, Chores - says they are done when they are not. Her night to make dinner - says the taco meat is done when she hasn't started. Clothes - Honey - where'd you get those jeans? (the ones bought when she went to the mall and lied - Oh, I got those from the hand-me-down box.) MY THINGS - make up - Oh, no that compact I have that looks like yours is actually mine (she says). My friend Susie gave it to me.

 

She has already *promised* not to text when driving. She took the FIRST oppty to do it again. How can we now trust her? (REAL question here - do you all think that her necessary growing freedom at being a young adult is worth the risk of her killing herself or someone else with our family car because she won't stop texting?) (I am not being argumentative, to me this seems irresponsible on the part of my dh and I - like letting someone drive our car who we know is prone to impaired drunk driving?)

 

it is the lying - not the stops in the car. Honestlly I have no problem with stops at the library, texting in moderation and fast food. But I *do* have a problem with someone abusing a privledge, or stopping with the family car - and then lying. Getting the driving privleges back appropriately had to start with small steps - i.e. go to work, come home. Those additional stops should come ONLY after she reestablishes trust.

 

We started out slow with the privleges when we give them back. She disregards them (poor impulse control, teen immaturity) and whomp! we have to clamp down again.

 

Cell phone - she lost that phone over *months* of disregard for simple rules; no texting after 10 p.m. and she was using way too many minutes. After months and *hundreds* of dollars, we took it til she is 18yo and that is the way it is. We won't renegotiate on that, she lost that privlege fair and square. Her continual disregard and deceit had consequences. She knew the consequence and her behavior warranted it. We have a cell phone she can use for safety when driving.

 

We tried hte "Plan Your Own homework "schedule" - she grudgingly wrote out a plan and instead was texting and internet/facebook surfing. (We have dial up, we can't have her tying up the home phone line for starters.) The flunking of Fall CC: lies about studying habits; assignments and what her prof said.

 

Contract: We have done the contract, Chris, that you describe with Sky. Maybe I should have said this up front. She did NOT do virtually all of the things she agreed to.

 

Consequences are "bottom line, if we can't trust you, you can't have privledges and you can't take the family car." (My husband fixed up a car for her last summer and she wrecked it by hitting a mailbox on the wrong side of the road. Consequences: no car for her to drive, a traffic court date for neg. driving - the judge dismissed it since the ticket was mid-day, seemed a "inexperienced driver mistake". Consequence, we live rurally, we only have one car she can drive and it is my family van. (Also, she's not a very good driver - very inattentive. Very dangerous highway. With real winters and icy roads and fog, etc.) We have a large family.

 

And yes, sometimes I yell. I lose my temper too much. But I doubt a whole lot more than the "average" mom of 3 teens, lol. I lose my temper almost exclusively over repeated lying and lying about chores. And btw, I apologize with a heartfelt apology.

 

Or that the lying problem "grows" so to speak. The night I found out about the phone, I found my make up lying on her desk (Make up I had asked about and she had 2 or 3 times denied having. It took me a week or so of looking, giving up and then going and buying myself new make up. Btw, I suspected she had it (hence the multiple requests) but I just believed her and I kept looking. This happens repeatedly to my shirts, shoes and her two sisters' clothes. It is a major annoyance.

 

We can't trust her. She has broken the trust. It makes this catch 22 - she is at an age where she should have more privleges and yet, she won't be trustworthy so we can give her more privleges.

 

btw, she has a 15yo sis who enjoys most of the privleges the older one doesn't because she is trustworthy.

 

I do see where I am the enemy sometimes - this dtr is also very moody. But we do keep telling her we love her. After the recent texting/driving/cell phone shopping spree (Monday), I was gently telling her that we had trusted her - we had faith and confidence that she would be responsible and that it hurt that she had not been. I also told her we would always be there for her and that both Dad and I had made mistakes 10X more serious than the one she made - when we were younger. She started crying and said, "thanks, Mom". I dropped her off at co op and when I saw her in 6 hours, she gave me the "I got a "C" in precalc story."

 

I'm still listening. Esp, thank you Chris, and all of you for responding.

Lisa

[Rebecca VA]

I used to lie all the time when I was younger (late teens, early 20s). I wasn't trying to be deceitful or wicked. The things I said were what I *wished* were true. I got "good attention" when I said the right things, so I said them.

 

When my life turned around and I could be proud of myself, I stopped lying. I'm scrupulously honest now. In fact, I'd forgotten about the lying till I read your post and that jogged my memory.

[KnitWit]

I guess I have to ask, hypothetically - you don't have to answer, if she has been so untrustworthy and deceitful for so long, WHY did you allow her to go anywhere without you? Why did you allow her to get a job? Why did you allow her to have access to a phone?

 

If there was already lying and deceit and a disregard for rules, then I don't understand why she was allowed to have privileges without responsibility. She skipped a step.

 

I'm not saying that in *judgment*. It will be hard to back up since she is so close to being able to be out on her own.

 

Chris' post was excellent. Let her pay natural consequences.

 

I'm sorry you are going through this.

[Karen in CO]

 

The lying has caused dtr to lose our trust. She lies over everything....

 

I want to make that clear. Everything is a lie.

We are understanding you. And as a matter of fact, when my sister was that age, I remember my mother telling her that if she (my sister) said the sky was blue, my mother would step outside and look before believing her. My sister joined the Navy the day after she turned 18. It took about 10 years before she and I mother could speak to each other. My sister was angry and depressed most of her teen years. She did drugs, drank, and did various scary things after she left home because she was still angry and depressed. The lying was the most visible thing, but it was just a symptom. My mother was never able to reach her because she was angry and frustrated with the lying and missed the real problem.

 

If you are in this place with your dd, you and your dh need to figure out how you are either going to repair the relationship and help her or at least survive until she leaves you.

[74Heaven]

a couple of points. Would you feel different abut her lying if she had never been baptized a Christian? Also, my sister always lied about her whereabouts to our parents because she knew they would have not let her go where she wanted to. She lied about her grades because she wanted to avoid the consequences of her grades. I realized my ds started doing the same thing at some point - it is easier to lie than to face parents that 'don't understand you.'

em.

 

Just as a reply, I don't care about being baptized meaning much of anything. But I do care that her talk "I'm a Christian. I'm a good girl or whatever" doesn't match the Walk.

 

Also I appreciate your thoughts and safety is def. on my mind in terms of where my kids are, what they are doing.

 

And not really replying to you - but to the posts in general - 17 is not 18 in my book. My dh and my dtr and I have talked about things being different this summer when she turns 18yo but that there will always be rules in this house that you have to follow to live here. And you are *always* welcome to live here and that will always be our preference.

 

Also to all the posters in general, there is a real difference in living rurally than within a town. Going anywhere requires a lot more planning out here - it is an hour RT drivetime so you don't just.

 

Another thought, I don't care if dtr is "at the library" but i do care if dtr tells me she is working late AND INSTEAD goes to the library. That's a lie. Or tells me she is coming straight home in my car (when I might need *my* car) and then delays 30min because she stopped somewhere else. It is courteous when you are the borrower.

 

Hopefully this clarifies why my 17yo dtr's stop at the library/mall/bookstore is wrong in my book.

 

Lisaj

 

Lisaj

[Anne in CA]

I myself lied to my mother constantly by the time I was 17. Like many of the other posters I had a very controlling mother though, and after reading all your posts I do not believe that you are trying to unreasonably control your dd.

 

When my step dd was 13 she lied more than she told the truth, but she did "outgrow" a lot of that with good training. Her mother never told the truth about anything in her life. Her mother is almost 50 and lies about things when the truth would be a lot better so I know everyone doesn't "outgrow" this. My step dd did most of her growing by learning from mentors at our church since she never took me or dh seriously. Her mother never had anyone to mentor her and that is where I think things went wrong.

 

I think that your dd needs to be around grown people who will invest in her, and she needs to be disconnected from peers who don't have a problem with her behavior and feed it. I may get flamed, but I doubt very much she is going to take you seriously for a long time and that trying to reconnect with her may burn time that you have to fix the problem. I'm pretty sure that when she is 18 she will walk right out the door if nothing changes. I would see if she can't spend time with family friends who would influence her for the better.

[Renee in NC]

I wouldn't let her drive the car, even if it was a HUGE inconvenience in having to drive her myself (and charge her for the privelege) because she may be texting while driving someday and kill my family, KWIM? You have mentioned several times that you have one vehicle available and she is a bad driver, so why are you letting her drive? There comes a point in time where she will buy her own car and do what she wants, but you don't have to let her do it in your car.

 

Is the money she spent out of her account money she earned herself or is it money you put in there? If it is money she earned herself, then let her do what she wants with it. If she is old enough to have a job she is old enough to manage her own money (and be expected to pay her own way for certain things.) I would have taken the phone away, too, because I am not paying for stupid amounts of texting. My ds is switching to unlimited texting as soon as he gets a job, but he is going to pay for it (he pays for overages now, but I won't do unlimited until he can pay for it - he pays a LOT more now, but that is the consequences of his actions.)

 

I just don't know what you hope to do. She's figured out that there is nothing you can do - the time for that is over. You aren't going to convince her (now) that you are right and she is wrong. I understand that you put all of these restrictions on her because she is untrustworthy, but it isn't working. By lying and sneaking around, she is telling you (picture a 3yo stomping her foot with her hands on her hips) that you aren't the boss of her.

 

In 6 months she may decide to leave to be on her own. Maybe she will make it, and maybe she will come home with a new appreciation of you. Set the limits of what is absolutely required and let the rest go.

[74Heaven]

I guess I have to ask, hypothetically - you don't have to answer, if she has been so untrustworthy and deceitful for so long, WHY did you allow her to go anywhere without you? Why did you allow her to get a job? Why did you allow her to have access to a phone?

 

If there was already lying and deceit and a disregard for rules, then I don't understand why she was allowed to have privileges without responsibility. She skipped a step.

 

I'm not saying that in *judgment*. It will be hard to back up since she is so close to being able to be out on her own.

s.

 

I think we felt as she got older, she "should have" some of these responsibilities/opportunities. We felt a job would help her mature; see the value of work and choices. I felt she would drive and slowly grow in that maturity as she had more opptys. Phone was partly safety, partly she was able to afford it, partly it was just "time" kwim. I really thought she would "mature out" of some of the lying.

 

And I never equated lying about chores (which seems universal with kids) as really growing from there.

 

And I think we doled out the new privileges with some carefulness. And then things just getting worse and worse. I think we thought things would improve as she got older.

 

I think we tried to equate privileges with responsibilities but things started snowballing and she was always "working on being truthful". We prob. missed a step in letting logical consequences take a bigger role.

 

Lisaj

[Parrothead]

Here's a question. How long has she had her job? I'd think that if she has been working for the same employer for a while she probably is not lying to him/her the way she is with you.

 

If that is the case you really have to ask why.

[Jean in Newcastle]

that dtr's consistent lying has "driven us" to have these restrictions.

 

I think in a lot of ways, we are dealing with a 17.5yo who acts like a 14-15yo in her maturity. When I talk with some of my friends, they say that what I am describing is trouble they had with their kids when they were 13,14,15,16yos.

 

The lying has caused dtr to lose our trust. She lies over everything....

 

I want to make that clear. Everything is a lie. There is nothing where we can trust what comes out of her mouth as true without checking on it. Homework, sibling arguments, if that is hers/sister's shirt, Chores - says they are done when they are not. Her night to make dinner - says the taco meat is done when she hasn't started. Clothes - Honey - where'd you get those jeans? (the ones bought when she went to the mall and lied - Oh, I got those from the hand-me-down box.) MY THINGS - make up - Oh, no that compact I have that looks like yours is actually mine (she says). My friend Susie gave it to me.

 

She has already *promised* not to text when driving. She took the FIRST oppty to do it again. How can we now trust her? (REAL question here - do you all think that her necessary growing freedom at being a young adult is worth the risk of her killing herself or someone else with our family car because she won't stop texting?) (I am not being argumentative, to me this seems irresponsible on the part of my dh and I - like letting someone drive our car who we know is prone to impaired drunk driving?)

 

it is the lying - not the stops in the car. Honestlly I have no problem with stops at the library, texting in moderation and fast food. But I *do* have a problem with someone abusing a privledge, or stopping with the family car - and then lying. Getting the driving privleges back appropriately had to start with small steps - i.e. go to work, come home. Those additional stops should come ONLY after she reestablishes trust.

 

We started out slow with the privleges when we give them back. She disregards them (poor impulse control, teen immaturity) and whomp! we have to clamp down again.

 

Cell phone - she lost that phone over *months* of disregard for simple rules; no texting after 10 p.m. and she was using way too many minutes. After months and *hundreds* of dollars, we took it til she is 18yo and that is the way it is. We won't renegotiate on that, she lost that privlege fair and square. Her continual disregard and deceit had consequences. She knew the consequence and her behavior warranted it. We have a cell phone she can use for safety when driving.

 

We tried hte "Plan Your Own homework "schedule" - she grudgingly wrote out a plan and instead was texting and internet/facebook surfing. (We have dial up, we can't have her tying up the home phone line for starters.) The flunking of Fall CC: lies about studying habits; assignments and what her prof said.

 

Contract: We have done the contract, Chris, that you describe with Sky. Maybe I should have said this up front. She did NOT do virtually all of the things she agreed to.

 

Consequences are "bottom line, if we can't trust you, you can't have privledges and you can't take the family car." (My husband fixed up a car for her last summer and she wrecked it by hitting a mailbox on the wrong side of the road. Consequences: no car for her to drive, a traffic court date for neg. driving - the judge dismissed it since the ticket was mid-day, seemed a "inexperienced driver mistake". Consequence, we live rurally, we only have one car she can drive and it is my family van. (Also, she's not a very good driver - very inattentive. Very dangerous highway. With real winters and icy roads and fog, etc.) We have a large family.

 

And yes, sometimes I yell. I lose my temper too much. But I doubt a whole lot more than the "average" mom of 3 teens, lol. I lose my temper almost exclusively over repeated lying and lying about chores. And btw, I apologize with a heartfelt apology.

 

Or that the lying problem "grows" so to speak. The night I found out about the phone, I found my make up lying on her desk (Make up I had asked about and she had 2 or 3 times denied having. It took me a week or so of looking, giving up and then going and buying myself new make up. Btw, I suspected she had it (hence the multiple requests) but I just believed her and I kept looking. This happens repeatedly to my shirts, shoes and her two sisters' clothes. It is a major annoyance.

 

We can't trust her. She has broken the trust. It makes this catch 22 - she is at an age where she should have more privleges and yet, she won't be trustworthy so we can give her more privleges.

 

btw, she has a 15yo sis who enjoys most of the privleges the older one doesn't because she is trustworthy.

 

I do see where I am the enemy sometimes - this dtr is also very moody. But we do keep telling her we love her. After the recent texting/driving/cell phone shopping spree (Monday), I was gently telling her that we had trusted her - we had faith and confidence that she would be responsible and that it hurt that she had not been. I also told her we would always be there for her and that both Dad and I had made mistakes 10X more serious than the one she made - when we were younger. She started crying and said, "thanks, Mom". I dropped her off at co op and when I saw her in 6 hours, she gave me the "I got a "C" in precalc story."

 

I'm still listening. Esp, thank you Chris, and all of you for responding.

Lisa

 

This post puts a new spin on things for me, Lisa. To me, this points to pathological lying. Pathological lying is an addiction and a disorder. It is often (I'm not totally sure why) tied to ADHD. In light of this post, I would recommend that you, your dh and your dd go to a family counselor or psychologist who knows something about this problem. Since you a rural, it will probably be a big pain for you to do, but if she is truly becoming a pathological liar (obviously my internet diagnosis means nothing) then it really needs to be addressed. I have a pathological liar in my family. I also dated a pathological liar. Both ended up with some major dysfunction in their lives. One is heading to jail next month and still takes no responsibility for his actions. :grouphug:

[Carrie12345]

Here's a question. How long has she had her job? I'd think that if she has been working for the same employer for a while she probably is not lying to him/her the way she is with you.

 

If that is the case you really have to ask why.

 

I was wondering the same thing.

When I was 17, I never jeopardized my job. I guess I technically did jeopardize my education (I was an ADD class-skipper), but I had very good relationships with my teachers and other administrators. All my friends' parents adored me.

 

But my mother smothered me, so I lied about the freedoms I was taking. Freedoms that, even in retrospect and as the mother of eventual teenagers, I believe I deserved.

 

That doesn't make lying okay, it doesn't make dangerous actions okay, and it doesn't make delaying others okay. But when so many of the lies are about bucking some pretty heavy duty restrictions, piling on more won't do much but enable even more lying.

[Laurie4b]

It sounds to me like you're a bit stuck in the behavior= consequences imposed by parent mode. You've done that and done that and done that and it hasn't worked, if I'm reading your posts correctly. If it hasn't worked before, wouldn't it be worth a try to look at it from some different angles?

 

1. How well is the ADD controlled? What have you tried for it?

 

2. Texting while driving is an issue that puts dd and everyone else in danger. That is a different category from lying, which is about your relationship with your dd. I would be inclined to drive her myself (despite the time), or give her only a cell without texting capabilities--maybe just 911 capabilities. That way she has a cell for safety, but not one she can talk, text, etc. on. This is the issue I would focus on with restrictions--not as a punishment, but to protect her and others.

 

3. I would suggest that you stop punishing her for lying or anything else. I'm suggesting this because it has not worked and is not morally required of you. Just put a moratorium on it. You are not going to punish her out of lying. Let go of that responsibility. It's beyond you. Privileges and punishments won't cut it at this point. How did Jacob come to stop lying?

 

4. Other things you might do (in addition to a lot of excellent advice you've already gotten) :

 

Unearned gifts/privileges. Sheer grace from out of no where. Take her and a friend to the mall. Take her out to dinner. Go get your nails done together. The point of this is to break the negative cycle and to give her a taste of grace, and to try to build some bridges between you again. This is not a one time thing. This is unexpected grace for the rest of the time she is with you. It should not be tied to her previous behavior. That would be earned, not grace. Just write some dates on the calendar and do stuff, regardless of what she's just done.

 

Consider why her lying pushes your buttons. (I know it's wrong and it would bother me too, but why does it push your buttons?) Do you feel like her lying means that you are a failure in some way? Does it reflect negatively on you? I know this is really, really hard to do, but if there is any piece of it that is about you, ask God to help you set that aside so that your focus can be on her for her sake.

 

Think of all the positive things about your dd. She doesn't do the "biggies" for one thing. What else do you like about her? What is good about her? What are her gifts? Focusing on the positives can help both you and dd turn things around.

 

What is dd's love language? If it's different than yours, how often do you actively speak hers?

 

No need to answer this post. I'm just offering some "outside the box" suggestions.

[LBC]

Unearned gifts/privileges. Sheer grace from out of no where. Take her and a friend to the mall. Take her out to dinner. Go get your nails done together. The point of this is to break the negative cycle and to give her a taste of grace, and to try to build some bridges between you again. This is not a one time thing. This is unexpected grace for the rest of the time she is with you. It should not be tied to her previous behavior. That would be earned, not grace. Just write some dates on the calendar and do stuff, regardless of what she's just done.

 

 

:iagree:This is great advice. I think sometimes as Christian parents we can forget that being a Christian is about receiving grace, not about obeying rules. I can't offer any advice, since my oldest is only 16, but I sure will remember this advice if my parenting road gets a bit bumpy.:001_smile:

 

Lori

[Susan in TN]

This post puts a new spin on things for me, Lisa. To me, this points to pathological lying. Pathological lying is an addiction and a disorder. It is often (I'm not totally sure why) tied to ADHD. In light of this post, I would recommend that you, your dh and your dd go to a family counselor or psychologist who knows something about this problem. Since you a rural, it will probably be a big pain for you to do, but if she is truly becoming a pathological liar (obviously my internet diagnosis means nothing) then it really needs to be addressed. I have a pathological liar in my family. I also dated a pathological liar. Both ended up with some major dysfunction in their lives. One is heading to jail next month and still takes no responsibility for his actions. :grouphug:

This is what I was thinking. There may be some ADD / psychological related issues that need to be addressed. I can't think of what they might be, but the extent of her lying is not normal, even for a rebellious teen.

[justamouse]

We are understanding you. And as a matter of fact, when my sister was that age, I remember my mother telling her that if she (my sister) said the sky was blue, my mother would step outside and look before believing her. My sister joined the Navy the day after she turned 18. It took about 10 years before she and I mother could speak to each other. My sister was angry and depressed most of her teen years. She did drugs, drank, and did various scary things after she left home because she was still angry and depressed. The lying was the most visible thing, but it was just a symptom. My mother was never able to reach her because she was angry and frustrated with the lying and missed the real problem.

 

If you are in this place with your dd, you and your dh need to figure out how you are either going to repair the relationship and help her or at least survive until she leaves you.

 

This. And what Chris said.

 

I talk about my daughter here a lot, but I don't often talk about my oldest son-because he's in jail. And let me tell you- what Chris said. I did it as a child too. My mother was unbearable. And although I was extremely responsible with my work, she could not manage to let go and so I lied about everything. I was out of the house at 19 (a couple of months after I graduated) and we didn't talk for years. It was a huge revelation when I realized I had done the same exact thing to my son. My fear over him making the wrong decisions (because I perceived him as immature) made me completely overbearing. Because I have changed the way I parent, my relationships with my other children are pretty wonderful.

Edited February 26, 2010 by justamouse

[LibraryLover]

This. And what Chris said.

 

I talk about my daughter here a lot, but I don't often talk about my oldest son-because he's in jail. And let me tell you- what Chris said. I did it as a child too. My mother was unbearable. And although I was extremely responsible with my work, she could not manage to let go and so I lied about everything. I was out of the house at 19, a couple of months after I graduated and we didn't talk for years. It was a huge revelation when I realized I had done the same exact thing to my son. My fear over him making the wrong decisions (because I perceived him as immature) made me completely overbearing. Because I have changed the way I parent, my relationships with my other children are pretty wonderful.

 

 

Wow. This brought tears to my eyes. Thank you for sharing this. You are a women of honesty and depth.

[justamouse]

Wow. This brought tears to my eyes. Thank you for sharing this. You are a women of honesty and depth.

 

That was excruciating to share. I'm sincerely glad you appreciated it. That made my sharing worth it.

[74Heaven]

It sounds to me like you're a bit stuck in the behavior= consequences imposed by parent mode. You've done that and done that and done that and it hasn't worked, if I'm reading your posts correctly. If it hasn't worked before, wouldn't it be worth a try to look at it from some different angles?

 

1. How well is the ADD controlled? What have you tried for it?

 

2. Texting while driving is an issue that puts dd and everyone else in danger. That is a different category from lying, which is about your relationship with your dd. I would be inclined to drive her myself (despite the time), or give her only a cell without texting capabilities--maybe just 911 capabilities. That way she has a cell for safety, but not one she can talk, text, etc. on. This is the issue I would focus on with restrictions--not as a punishment, but to protect her and others.

 

3. I would suggest that you stop punishing her for lying or anything else. I'm suggesting this because it has not worked and is not morally required of you. Just put a moratorium on it. You are not going to punish her out of lying. Let go of that responsibility. It's beyond you. Privileges and punishments won't cut it at this point. How did Jacob come to stop lying?

 

4. Other things you might do (in addition to a lot of excellent advice you've already gotten) :

 

Unearned gifts/privileges. Sheer grace from out of no where. Take her and a friend to the mall. Take her out to dinner. Go get your nails done together. The point of this is to break the negative cycle and to give her a taste of grace, and to try to build some bridges between you again. This is not a one time thing. This is unexpected grace for the rest of the time she is with you. It should not be tied to her previous behavior. That would be earned, not grace. Just write some dates on the calendar and do stuff, regardless of what she's just done.

 

Consider why her lying pushes your buttons. (I know it's wrong and it would bother me too, but why does it push your buttons?) Do you feel like her lying means that you are a failure in some way? Does it reflect negatively on you? I know this is really, really hard to do, but if there is any piece of it that is about you, ask God to help you set that aside so that your focus can be on her for her sake.

 

Think of all the positive things about your dd. She doesn't do the "biggies" for one thing. What else do you like about her? What is good about her? What are her gifts? Focusing on the positives can help both you and dd turn things around.

 

What is dd's love language? If it's different than yours, how often do you actively speak hers?

 

No need to answer this post. I'm just offering some "outside the box" suggestions.

 

The ADD is controlled medically. It seems like it works well - than doesn't work - hard to measure. She has been on the meds for about 2 years.

 

Everything you said in the first 3 points is right on. As in, yes - punishment/discipline-consequences has not worked. That is the intent of my question today. (Picture me throwing up my arms in dismay.)

 

My dh and I just finished a 12week parenting Bible study by Chip Ingraham. The centerpiece is "Focus on Relationship" with the teens. It was/is a good eye opener and we are pursuing that.

 

We are certainly in tune with that advice and actively pursuing it. We are pursuing relationship. The grace advice is good too. I'm sure I don't speak her love language. It is gift-giving and time!

 

I am lacking in 1-on-1 time. My average day is beyond *packed*. We felt it would be step toward independence to have her answer to her Co op teachers instead of me so I started working 4hrs a week to pay for it. I am still hsing 4 other children, involved in another co op and I am a youth leader.

 

Lisaj

As the Zits comic strip said, "I just want my life as a mother before teenagers back".

[74Heaven]

This post puts a new spin on things for me, Lisa. To me, this points to pathological lying. Pathological lying is an addiction and a disorder. It is often (I'm not totally sure why) tied to ADHD. In light of this post, I would recommend that you, your dh and your dd go to a family counselor or psychologist who knows something about this problem. Since you a rural, it will probably be a big pain for you to do, but if she is truly becoming a pathological liar (obviously my internet diagnosis means nothing) then it really needs to be addressed. I have a pathological liar in my family. I also dated a pathological liar. Both ended up with some major dysfunction in their lives. One is heading to jail next month and still takes no responsibility for his actions. :grouphug:

 

I think my dad was a pathological liar. I worry about this. We had a meeting set up with a counselor and I chose not to take her because this counselor said something like "well, we don't really focus on lying; but rather where these decisions she is making will take her where she wants to go". I wasn't totally opposed to that approach, but I worried this counselor would downplay what I considered on of the root issues. We *will* be trying again soon. When I set up the first appt. we couldn't get in for about a month. Hopefully God will open a door for something sooner.

 

Lisa

[LibraryLover]

:grouphug: I meant it.

That was excruciating to share. I'm sincerely glad you appreciated it. That made my sharing worth it.

[chiguirre]

I wouldn't let her drive the car, even if it was a HUGE inconvenience in having to drive her myself (and charge her for the privelege) because she may be texting while driving someday and kill my family, KWIM? You have mentioned several times that you have one vehicle available and she is a bad driver, so why are you letting her drive? There comes a point in time where she will buy her own car and do what she wants, but you don't have to let her do it in your car.

 

 

:iagree: with Renee. Here's a link to a Welsh public service announcement about texting while driving. It's VERY graphic, but it certainly gets the point across.

 

 

[dragons in the flower bed]

Even now at 43 I still lie or tell half truths to my mom simply so I do not have to listen to how I'm doing it the wrong way. We will never have any kind of close relationship.

 

:iagree: with everything said here. In my experience with three different situations like the one described here, such behavior indicates that the lying person has reached her limit with regards to controls being placed on her. She no longer cares enough to feel even the slightest bit accountable to the people she's lying to. She has given up on being listened to, so she has given up on listening. She has checked out, and is saying what she has to say to avoid direct confrontation about that fact. And, yes, she is probably only there until s/he can legally or safely escape.

 

:grouphug: 74heaven :grouphug:

[Catwoman]

Lisa, when did your dd start lying? Can you pinpoint when it began, or did she always tend to lie?

 

I'm only asking because if you can figure out when she started the constant lying, perhaps you'll be able to tie it to a specific event or difficult period in her life.

 

Also, I have to agree with Jean -- your dd sounds like she may be a pathological liar. It doesn't appear that she's a cruel, bad, or evil person, just that she can't tell the truth about anything. Maybe she feels repressed, or maybe her friends are liars and she is emulating their behavior -- I have no idea.

 

I wish I had some good advice for you, because you are so obviously in pain over this. :grouphug::grouphug::grouphug:

 

Cat

[Jean in Newcastle]

The ADD is controlled medically. It seems like it works well - than doesn't work - hard to measure. She has been on the meds for about 2 years.

 

Everything you said in the first 3 points is right on. As in, yes - punishment/discipline-consequences has not worked. That is the intent of my question today. (Picture me throwing up my arms in dismay.)

 

My dh and I just finished a 12week parenting Bible study by Chip Ingraham. The centerpiece is "Focus on Relationship" with the teens. It was/is a good eye opener and we are pursuing that.

 

We are certainly in tune with that advice and actively pursuing it. We are pursuing relationship. The grace advice is good too. I'm sure I don't speak her love language. It is gift-giving and time!

 

I am lacking in 1-on-1 time. My average day is beyond *packed*. We felt it would be step toward independence to have her answer to her Co op teachers instead of me so I started working 4hrs a week to pay for it. I am still hsing 4 other children, involved in another co op and I am a youth leader.

 

Lisaj

As the Zits comic strip said, "I just want my life as a mother before teenagers back".

 

Lisa - may I gently suggest that you make this daughter your top priority? I would take a sabbatical on being youth leader. I'm not sure what "involved in another co op" means but I would drop out of all involvement that you can. I would do everything I could to make the time to set up 1 - on- 1 time with this daughter. She is more important right now than all of that. Even your other children can be put (slightly) on the back burner right now so that you can address this.

[Catwoman]

Lisa - may I gently suggest that you make this daughter your top priority? I would take a sabbatical on being youth leader. I'm not sure what "involved in another co op" means but I would drop out of all involvement that you can. I would do everything I could to make the time to set up 1 - on- 1 time with this daughter. She is more important right now than all of that. Even your other children can be put (slightly) on the back burner right now so that you can address this.

 

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

 

I was thinking the same thing that Jean mentioned. I assume that the youth leader position might be something you do for your other children, but perhaps you can still be somewhat involved without being leader. (if it's not something you're doing for your other kids, I'd suggest that you just quit completely.) I'd also drop at least one of the co-ops and quit the job. If you do a lot of work for the second co-op (for your younger kids, I'm guessing,) maybe you can explain that you have a personal issue to deal with right now, and beg off on some of your responsibilities there, as well.

 

Cat

[Cindy in the NH Woods]

Just a thought...

 

For a time, for my sanity as well as for our dd's best interests, I needed to let go and have my husband handle the "rules" aspect of parenting our 17 yr. old. She reported to him about her where-abouts, when she would be home, etc. I learned to appreciate my husband's perspective on things, and learned from him about parenting a young adult. I think it is extra hard for mothers to transition into this, particularly as our perceptiveness and caution were so necessary when our kids were tots. :)

 

This approach, and tons of God's mercy and grace, allowed my dd's and dh's relationship to strengthen. And kept me out of an asylum. For now.

 

I know how hard things can be~

 

Cindy

[Night Elf]

The only comment I have is to show her this article about a Georgia teenager who died while texting. I really hope she stops doing that. :(

[Haiku]

I have a 15 year old who frequently attempts to evade responsibility for things and justify to herself (and others) why she did things that she was told not to do.

 

Here is what I would do in your situation:

 

1) Tell dd that, since she has repeatedly broken the safety rules of driving the car (texting while driving), she may no longer drive the car. Period. She'll have to figure out her own way of getting to work (taxi, friend, paying you to drive her, whatever).

 

2) Allow her to keep the phone she bought as long as she is completely financially responsible for it. Lift the rule about no texting after 10. Make this phone completely her responsibility. If she can afford to pay for it and maintain it, she shouldn't have you standing over her dictating how it can be used.

 

3) Let her own her own grades. Don't take it personally if she lies to you about them. Don't nag her to do her work. She has to reach the point where she does the work for her sake, not for yours. Let her schooling be her own responsibility.

 

4) Get her into counseling pronto. Don't let a perhaps-incorrect impression about what the counselor may think or do dissuade you from going. What you suspect is the root of the problem (lying) may very well be a symptom, not the root.

 

5) When my dd first came to us (from an orphanage), she lied ALL. THE. TIME. My general response was, "That doesn't sound like the truth." That's all I said, and then I let the matter drop. Making the lying a big deal gives your dd a perfect way to push your buttons.

 

I think you need to give your dd more freedom to experience the consequences of her actions. Aside from not allowing her to drive your car, I would drop most of the restrictions you have placed on her. A kid who never has to own her actions (mom and dad own them by punishing) will never learn to run her own life.

 

Tara

[Chris in VA]

I have a 15 year old who frequently attempts to evade responsibility for things and justify to herself (and others) why she did things that she was told not to do.

 

Here is what I would do in your situation:

 

1) Tell dd that, since she has repeatedly broken the safety rules of driving the car (texting while driving), she may no longer drive the car. Period. She'll have to figure out her own way of getting to work (taxi, friend, paying you to drive her, whatever).

 

2) Allow her to keep the phone she bought as long as she is completely financially responsible for it. Lift the rule about no texting after 10. Make this phone completely her responsibility. If she can afford to pay for it and maintain it, she shouldn't have you standing over her dictating how it can be used.

 

3) Let her own her own grades. Don't take it personally if she lies to you about them. Don't nag her to do her work. She has to reach the point where she does the work for her sake, not for yours. Let her schooling be her own responsibility.

 

4) Get her into counseling pronto. Don't let a perhaps-incorrect impression about what the counselor may think or do dissuade you from going. What you suspect is the root of the problem (lying) may very well be a symptom, not the root.

 

5) When my dd first came to us (from an orphanage), she lied ALL. THE. TIME. My general response was, "That doesn't sound like the truth." That's all I said, and then I let the matter drop. Making the lying a big deal gives your dd a perfect way to push your buttons.

 

I think you need to give your dd more freedom to experience the consequences of her actions. Aside from not allowing her to drive your car, I would drop most of the restrictions you have placed on her. A kid who never has to own her actions (mom and dad own them by punishing) will never learn to run her own life.

 

Tara

 

Well said.:iagree:

[SonshineLearner]

You know, we have a 17 yr old and a 14 year old... (and an 11yr old and 6 yr old....) I think that whether you spank, ground, time-out... just talk everything through... or a combination of all of that and more.... the hardest time comes when you transition to the child growing into an adult. Really, our 14 yr old is being transitioned already. At 17, I constantly remind my husband that his daughter is almost 18.... (well... the oldest two are with us half time.. because they are "his" ..and we have to share them...) Even our 11 yr old is transitioning.... They are responsible for their actions as they move towards adulthood. After all.. that's the whole think we are doing is getting them ready for the rest of their lives.

I think that everyone else is right. Sit down with her, explain that you haven't given her enough freedom. With freedom comes responsibilities. Even the $$$ thing. I'd take her name off before she's 18 and put it up for her.... (Would her daddy be happy with his adult daughter blowing his money?? hmmm) She needs to earn her money... pay for what she gets... and choose to deal kindly with you... or get a few hard life knocks around the way... I'd deal with some of the things that she's being unwise about, that could kill her... (texting) and deal with... and encourage her to use her independence to purchase things... (food~drinks included) She's an adult... help her transition into that role.

Do it now... it's easier than waiting. Clear the air.... tell her you love her... but you were hugging her too tight... Let her fall on her butt... Give her a shoulder to cry on... even kleenex... but yank the money.

[Irene Lynn]

My parents would have thought that, too, but there was a reason I was lying so much and THAT was the place to start for me. The lying was a surface issue, an issue that looked huge and confusing, but it really was only a surface issue for me. My parents and I got stuck in our ways of dealing with each other and perceiving what the problems were that we missed the real issues too often. Since we missed the real issues, we wasted a lot of time. Actually, my parents still don't get it, but *I* have changed.

 

I guess my points are: 1. be careful to keep focused on the most important thing, if you can even find it. A liar can really cause confusion and stir the pot so much it is hard to tell which end is up. (From someone who did this to my own parents, I am sorry for the frustration and stress this is causing you. It can't be easy.) and 2. I was a constant liar and even studied it to make myself a better one, but it all fell away fairly easily years ago. There is hope.

[Joanne]

I think my dad was a pathological liar. I worry about this. We had a meeting set up with a counselor and I chose not to take her because this counselor said something like "well, we don't really focus on lying; but rather where these decisions she is making will take her where she wants to go". I wasn't totally opposed to that approach, but I worried this counselor would downplay what I considered on of the root issues. We *will* be trying again soon. When I set up the first appt. we couldn't get in for about a month. Hopefully God will open a door for something sooner.

 

Lisa

 

Mental illness often has a genetic link/family history.

 

I want to encourage you to trust the professionals. It's a process, not an event. Counselors are trained to uncover and discern issues.