s/o opinion on education, work, gender and lifespan focus.........

[Guest janainaz]

I contribute by being me.

 

And this is the meaning of contentment and self-acceptance. Two good things.

[Carol in Cal.]

And this is the reason that it would be great for more women to stay home. I think there are a huge amount of working women who WANT to be home, but can't or don't want to downsize and live with less in order to do so. As far as kids go, are you saying that because society does not support women being home as they should that women should find something else to do? I'm just not clear what your point is. I just think women who want to stay home need to stand firm and be proud of what they are doing. That IS good for children to see.

 

I just think that everyone should be realistic about what is going on right now. Naming and describing things accurately is the first step toward figuring out what to do, not the last step.

 

I think that you're right about there being a lot of working women who would just as soon be home, and I also think that often it's their spouses or insecurity about their spouses that keeps them working--it's not just on the women, it's on the men as well, maybe more so in a lot of cases.

 

So, realistically, it is against women and men's individual self interests and economic security to have either one of them stay home and the other be the breadwinner. So in order to make this work, they have to both really, really want it, and they have to both stick with that decision, come what may. And guess what, society does not support or respect that decision very much, and at any point either party can bail on it with almost complete impunity. And (here it is, my main point!) I don't think it should be like this. I am not sure of what a good alternative is, but I think that women or men who stay home and do a great job of that should be honored and commended and supported, economically and socially. I think that men or women who keep their promises and commitments should also be rewarded and respected and honored, economically and socially. But I don't know how to do that or exactly what it should look like.

 

Here's what I do know. When people on this board talk about the dignity of SAH parenting, I cheer and agree. But when they talk about it like it's something that they can make happen for their daughters, I get very concerned. They are then raising their daughters to be totally vulnerable to the good will of some man that they don't even know yet, for the rest of their lives. And with our divorce rate, and the lack of family court support for SAH parenting, let alone homeschooling, this is a risk that frightens me on behalf of those girls.

Edited January 19, 2010 by Carol in Cal.

[Guest janainaz]

I just think that everyone should be realistic about what is going on right now. Naming and describing things accurately is the first step toward figuring out what to do, not the last step.

 

I think that you're right about there being a lot of working women who would just as soon be home, and also that often it's their spouses or insecurity about their spouses that keeps them working--it's not just on the women, it's on the men as well, maybe more so in a lot of cases.

 

So, realistically, it is against women and men's individual self interests and economic security to have either one of them stay home and the other be the breadwinner. So in order to make this work, they have to both really, really want it, and they have to both stick with that decision, come what may. And guess what, society does not support or respect that decision very much, and at any point either party can bail on it with almost complete impunity. And (here it is, my main point!) I don't think it should be like this. I am not sure of what a good alternative is, but I think that women who stay home and do a great job of that should be honored and commended and supported, economically and socially. I think that men who keep their promises and commitments should also be rewarded and respected and honored, economically and socially. But I don't know how to do that or exactly what it should look like.

 

Here's what I do know. When people on this board talk about the dignity of SAH parenting, I cheer and agree. But when they talk about it like it's something that they can make happen for their daughters, I get very concerned. They are then raising their daughters to be totally vulnerable to the good will of some man that they don't even know yet, for the rest of their lives. And with our divorce rate, and the lack of family court support for SAH parenting, let alone homeschooling, this is a risk that frightens me on behalf of those girls.

 

I see your point.

 

I have a dh that supports me staying home and homeschooling, BUT he has also spent the last year having anxiety, stress and thought he was dying from trying to handle the pressure. I really do get what you're saying and even I need to remember to show him that extra respect. I am lucky he's willing to take that on. I do what I love, he does what he does because he's a good guy. My husbands brother wanted his wife working and he makes well over six figures a year and his wife makes close to six figures if not more. They think we're nuts.

 

As far as a mother raising a daughter to be a SAHM which requires her to be supported by her husband and the risk factor in that - I hear you. I don't have girls, but if I did I would stress the NEED for an education all the more. I would just want her to have it and for many countless reasons. I would also raise her to make her own choices and to follow her own heart in life. If she was the type of person who wanted to be a mom at home, I'd also be teaching her that she had better make sure she finds a man with a decent job or ability to provide income AND that he be 100% on board with a wife at home. I talk to my ten year old about jobs and I've told him if he wants a wife to stay home that he needs an education so that he can provide. We get into all kinds of conversations and I remind him that just because I stay home it does not mean I'm the best mom. I'm trying to leave that idea open so he can figure out what HE feels about life, not about how I feel about life for him. The best way to cure the ills of society is through one person at a time. Be supportive to those you love and be proud of what you do.

[NancyNellen]

I would agree with this completely. The only people I know IRL who do all of the child-centered classes/shopping/sports are 2 income families - the rest of us cannot afford it. Instead we hike, play at the park, and ride our bikes together as a family. I personally believe, based on experience, that our child-focused culture comes out of the busy lives we have cultivated for ourselves: both parents working, school, sports, classes, volunteering, birthday party madness, etc. etc.

 

Most (not all) of the homeschooling families I know are much more involved in community issues and volunteering. Most of the women I know have some kind of skill or expertise that could bring in income, if necessary. They just prefer, to their family's benefit, to stay home and be the best wife, mother, homemaker, and teacher they can.

[Liz CA]

I totally agree with you, Joanne. I think that focus away from solely mothering is starting to happen for me now that dd is 8. But - I only have two children. I think for some of these very large families, the family is going to be the focus for much, much longer because they have young children in the household for much, much longer.

 

Oh - and I don't see how any of this has any bearing on SAHM vs. working moms. I do not plan to work outside the home but my focus is broadening none-the-less to hobbies, ministries and volunteering. My focus is also quite a bit on learning and hopefully treating my own chronic illness.

 

This interpretation was obviously in the "big" plan of our Creator. Does it not mention that the younger women learn from the older women? The older women have gathered more experience and not just in running a household. I don't think women were ever meant to sit at home and stare out the window depressed and defeated after the kids have left home. In fact, the time we gain when our little ones have grown more independent or have left the house, can and probably was meant to be used as a blessings to others.

Also, while we are in the trenches of raising young ones we all need a break some time. I used to go to MOPS (Mothers of Preschoolers) and this saved my life. At least it prevented my brain from oozing down my back after umpteen readings of the favorite bear book. I would never trade my time raising my son but there is no doubt that every person needs time for themselves, be it reading, crafts or something else.

 

Edited January 19, 2010 by Liz CA

[Laura Corin]

I see it in terms of seasons in my life. Right now, my focus is on my children because I'm their educator as well as their mother - if they went to school I would be working. When they go to school in eighteen months from now, I'll be finding work. I will still want to be home when they come back from school - I do think that this is worthwhile.

 

Laura

[keptwoman]

I do think that everyone should be capable of earning an income. I think though the trouble is that often in teh time that we are happily mothering, our skills become unmarketable or expired.

 

Homemaking/parenting/homeschooling fullfills me. I work hard at it and I am proud of what I do. I don't need to do "more."

This is how I feel too. Absolutely 100% happy with where I am. My DH was unemployed for 5 months, during which time we realised I have no marketable skills anymore, but he never berated me for that because it's a choice we made together and it's a problem we face together.

 

The one biggest worry in my life right now is "what would happen if dh couldn't work or died or something?"

 

I spent 13 years in the workforce and by the time I was done, I had a really great job, but I worked my way up the ladder. I don't have a college education. If I tried to get a job today, I'd have to start back at the bottom of the ladder (or very near.) I need some sort of degree so that I'm in the running if I have to search for a job. Anyone looking at my resume, and seeing no college would just toss mine out.

This is where I am at too. And I'd love to retrain, but I don't have the time or money to do so.

Honestly I think our solution to this is going to be to increase DH's life insurance so that if something happens to him I do have the money to continue to live without having to work. I can't imagine the trauma of children loosing a parent and then having to go back to school so Mum can work. I guess this doesn't take into account divorce, but I don't plan to do that, short sighted perhaps, but I married for life and I have a good marriage, and I refuse to plan for the worst, to me that's like a prenup.

My main concern that isn't covered is unemployment again, it's tough!

[justamouse]

Here's what I do know. When people on this board talk about the dignity of SAH parenting, I cheer and agree. But when they talk about it like it's something that they can make happen for their daughters, I get very concerned. They are then raising their daughters to be totally vulnerable to the good will of some man that they don't even know yet, for the rest of their lives. And with our divorce rate, and the lack of family court support for SAH parenting, let alone homeschooling, this is a risk that frightens me on behalf of those girls.

 

I so whole heartedly agree with you. Because of this I make sure MY daughters will go to college-it's not a choice, it's expected. They see it with myself and my friends--you must be able to support yourself. Must. I'm another one that needs to retrain.

[justamouse]

And this is the reason that it would be great for more women to stay home. I think there are a huge amount of working women who WANT to be home, but can't or don't want to downsize and live with less in order to do so.

 

This isn't possible though. In some areas of the country (like mine) those two salaries are needed just to survive-unless your spouse makes enough for the both of you. But in my neck of the woods you need two adults making the median (33k? I think now?) to just get by. On a blog I read the mother was single in NY with two kids and made 200k and felt like she was living in poverty. I have friends in NYC who are empty nesters and make as much and also feel as if they are barely making ends meet. So, it's not a matter of downsizing or living with less. In some cases it's what they to to survive-and they are grateful that they HAVE jobs.

[Peela]

 

I believe every adult should either have or be aquiring a skill and/or education that can be used for income. My own children are expected to either go to college, in the armed forces, have market needed vocational training or have an exceptional artistic or sports talent that can generate income.

 

I get the point, but I dont think we need to put a "should" onto it. I know there is a minority of people who raise daughters to be SAHMs but when I have come across that concept it is usually paired with giving the girls a lot of skills that could be used to raise income if it was needed.

And for the rest of us....well, as far as I can tell it is inherent in human nature to want to be of some use, to share some talent, to be a part of the community in some way...its not something we need to impose onto ourselves and make a "should" out of. It seems like a natural thing to me and for most people. What that looks like for each person...well, its going to be different.

 

I think the western world is way too focused on work, personally. If we all worked a bit less, and played a bit more, and valued our non productive time as much as our productive time, there would be enough work to go around and society would be less stressed. More able to focus on family. Less desperate need to compensate for lack of parenting time with focusing on the kids in an unhealthy way.

 

 

I honesty think that many Americans have idealized "family" and made an idol out of the concept. I do not believe that mothering is supposed to be a full time focus. I do believe that the younger the children, the more maternal time, energy and focus is needed, but I do not believe "mothering" and homemaking is supposed to be a life long focus. I also think this accounts for at least part of the high percentage of depression (diagnosed and otherwise) in at home moms.

 

Well, maybe in homeschooling worlds, to be a SAHM mum is normal. But it doesnt seem to me to be normal anywhere else I look- of course I am in Australia- is it so different in America?. And I dont understand where this is coming from because isnt it just a small minority that dont find something "productive" to do once kids have flown the coop?

 

I believe we've become child-centered and it's to the detriment of everyone: mothers, fathers and children. Businesses geared to children, marketed to families are a rather dubious luxury item (kids' cooking centers, birthday party places, etc) The over-abundance of classes, sports, expectations of involvement, while they might enrich a child's life, serve as a collective group to make children the out of persepctive focus of time, energy, money, etc.

 

I think these things are reflections of a guilty society, and not a particularly child centred one.

And yes, a lot of that stuff is just a waste of resources but when people are sooo squeezed for time, and always exhausted...yet cashed up...they turn to easy solutions to things.

 

I believe that mothers need to be, do and offer something "more". There are an unlimited amount of possibilities, needs, jobs, volunteer situations, ministries.

 

Teach an adult to read

organize a program getting professional clothing to people in half way houses

Have a ministry to meet the needs of the older generation

Visit nursing homes

Give classes on painting, art history, diabetes, car repair

Volunteer at a thrift shop

Volunteer at a food pantry...........

 

There is time to do many things: I write this from a decently clean home, 3 children testing at grade level, having a 3/4 time job and attending school full time.

 

Yes, there is time for more, even while homeschooling. I have a social life, I have a part time cooking job, I go on holidays, I do courses. However every time I think of going into a "career" mode....I feel that although my kids would do perfectly well- they are resilient....I would not handle the pressure of having my attention in two places very well, and homeschooling would suffer. So as much as a part of me would like to..I let go and come back to homeschooling as my primary role for this season. Because I can. You could say, I feel God supports me to do this for now.

But whats the problem here?

Most older women I know are glad to move on to follow their passions after the kids have left home.

I know of no one IRL who sees mothering as their sole role in life.

 

The only issue I have with what you are saying, Joanne, is that I dont feel the "work" is the answer to the world's, or America's, or civilisation's problems. I don't see a lack of work anywhere. Our civilisation is work obsessed. I see a lot of stupid, meaningless work, though. Sure, it brings home money, but I dont think we are meant ot be robots working for the system, satisfied to eke a living. We are far more noble than that.

I think it is inherent in human nature to want to express, to give, to have a purpose, to take care. That can express in so many ways. We are not here to "work" but to live.

[amy g.]

My grandmother had 4 daughters. Two of them made home and family the focus of their lives. Two of them pursued careers. I suspect that if they had compared their lives when they were in their 40s the working moms would have considered themselves much happier.

 

Now that they are in their 60s and 70s the situation is quite different. Their second marriages did not work out, which is statistically not uncommon. They spent Christmas either alone, or with church friends.

 

The sisters who focused on home and family, have come out on the other side of the hard places in their marriages, and are enjoying a renewed intimacy with their husbands now that their kids are grown. Their kids CHOOSE to spend holidays and free weekends with them because their families are happy and rewarding.

 

I have a degree. I had a pre-children career that I enjoyed, and excelled at, but that is not where I choose to invest and make my life focus, even though other choices might be more rewarding for the time being. I keep my eyes on what I want to look back on at the end of my life....and that is not a job.

[PineFarmMom]

My grandmother had 4 daughters. Two of them made home and family the focus of their lives. Two of them pursued careers. I suspect that if they had compared their lives when they were in their 40s the working moms would have considered themselves much happier.

 

Now that they are in their 60s and 70s the situation is quite different. Their second marriages did not work out, which is statistically not uncommon. They spent Christmas either alone, or with church friends.

 

The sisters who focused on home and family, have come out on the other side of the hard places in their marriages, and are enjoying a renewed intimacy with their husbands now that their kids are grown. Their kids CHOOSE to spend holidays and free weekends with them because their families are happy and rewarding.

 

I have a degree. I had a pre-children career that I enjoyed, and excelled at, but that is not where I choose to invest and make my life focus, even though other choices might be more rewarding for the time being. I keep my eyes on what I want to look back on at the end of my life....and that is not a job.

 

:iagree: Well said!! I believe that ultimately choosing to serve my family rather than self will be more rewarding than me trying to be fulfilled in some other way. The people I see frustrated and depressed haven't typically been sahms but working moms who found that career wasn't as fulfilling as they thought it might be. I don't think that's across the board, but I think depression in sahms has other roots. I am not downplaying the need for hobbies and serving in the community, but quite frankly, I don't know any sahms with older children who don't serve and give and enjoy hobbies of some sort.

 

I've worn the three different hats. I've been a working mom with a high-paying job and found I only wanted to be home with my dc and it seemed like a chasing after the wind for me. I've been a sahm homeschooling my two oldest, and it was much better than the first choice for me, but still I found it hard to do both jobs well (I know people that do this well...I just had a hard time), and I've been a full-time sahm homeschooling the dc, and I've found it the most rewarding! The true peace came when I chose to let other things go and pursue family. It's not idolatry but priorities. I actually think choosing career in the beginning had more to do with idolatry than any of the other choices I've made.

[Joanne]

:iagree: Well said!! I believe that ultimately choosing to serve my family rather than self will be more rewarding than me trying to be fulfilled in some other way. The people I see frustrated and depressed haven't typically been sahms but working moms who found that career wasn't as fulfilling as they thought it might be. I don't think that's across the board, but I think depression in sahms has other roots. I am not downplaying the need for hobbies and serving in the community, but quite frankly, I don't know any sahms with older children who don't serve and give and enjoy hobbies of some sort.

 

I've worn the three different hats. I've been a working mom with a high-paying job and found I only wanted to be home with my dc and it seemed like a chasing after the wind for me. I've been a sahm homeschooling my two oldest, and it was much better than the first choice for me, but still I found it hard to do both jobs well (I know people that do this well...I just had a hard time), and I've been a full-time sahm homeschooling the dc, and I've found it the most rewarding! The true peace came when I chose to let other things go and pursue family. It's not idolatry but priorities. I actually think choosing career in the beginning had more to do with idolatry than any of the other choices I've made.

 

The OP isn't about WOH vs. SAHM issues. I would also again choose stay at home mothering for my children's early years - and if I could cut the outside the home job I have today, I would.

[Joanne]

Adding another thought.

 

I think in "earlier times", mothers who did not work outside the home did "more" with the kids in tow. Mothering wasn't the exclusive focus, but more what Mom did while also doing other stuff.

 

The presence of mothering as an exclusive focus, I believe, to be a new phenomena.

[Lovedtodeath]

 

But if she can't do that stuff...if all she can do is get up, clean her house, love her husband, and teach her children to be independent workers and givers instead of a drain on society, then may God bless her and the world thank her for her life's work.

:grouphug: Some of us struggle just to survive. Thank you so much for saying that.

[Lovedtodeath]

I believe every adult should either have or be aquiring a skill and/or education that can be used for income. My own children are expected to either go to college, in the armed forces, have market needed vocational training or have an exceptional artistic or sports talent that can generate income.

I agree with this. Though I did have a very good job and many skills, and could again, I wish I had a college degree that would allow me to work from home. I started to pursue one but it did not work out. So... I think that the college degree that I require for my children needs to be pretty specific too.

[Aggie]

Joanne....

 

I'm quite surprised at the assumptions you are making here.

 

Where are the stats for the "high percentage of depression in at home moms"? How many of this percentage have you spoken with to determine that you know the cause of some of this depression? Could there be other reasons for depression? Money, relationships, other obligations? I need to see a study, because frankly, I know *many* sahm and I don't see a high number of women with depression. (I will say that I don't ask every mom if she suffers with depression ;) )

 

You don't believe mothering and homemaking is supposed to be a lifelong focus for whom? You? Every woman in America? Why would anyone paint all women/mothers with such a broad brush? As other posters have mentioned, each woman's path is different and there is NO WAY one person could suppose to know that each woman must do something else besides mother.

 

You also know what mothers need?! Whew. When you know me, know my family, know how we live, what we do and what our needs are, then you may know what I need. Until then, that is quite the presupposition, don't you think?

 

Some families are child-centered. Some are family-centered. Some are neither. While I may not agree with the focus of some families, I do know that there are all types of functioning families and people. What is good for our family certainly may not work for yours. Not only that, but it would be difficult for someone to look at our family and determine whether or not we are child- or family-focused. Can't always be determined by looking in from the outside. (BTW, 15 yrs ago Ezzo was saying the exact same thing you are saying now. Sears, iirc, espoused the child-centered home.)

 

And what, exactly, is "out of perspective focus"? By whose standards? What do you mean "detriment"? How do you qualify that?

 

Now, had you written your post about you and only you, I could understand. It is premature, imo, to express these thoughts as though they pertain to the entire world of families and mothers, esp without broad range studies wrt depression.

 

Respectfully,

Aggie

[swellmomma]

I don't have a marketable skill. I used to but that is gone do to situations in my life. I do not think that is a detrement to my family. I do think that hyper focusing on teh kids or the home and never finding time for hobbies or other aspects of yourself can lead to issues with depression and such. BTDT, I don't have time for my hobbies during this season of my life, I gave up going to bible study class because it interfered with homeschooling, I had already lost my friends due to the kids, so I ended up focusing only on them and shutting all those other aspects of my life out. It really took it's toll on my mental health which in turn negatively affected the kids. I have spent this year branching out and finding those other parts of myself again and not hyper focusing ont he kids. I am active in my homeschool support group and running the science fair this year (That takes up a decent amount of time), volunteer twice a week at their fine arts program, taking college courses 1 at a time from home for self education. WHile even my outside commitments/involvement are in line with my children's activities, they are expanding my focus to others around me and making me a better person. I still plan to stay home and home school the kids, and do feel that being a SAHM/homemaker is my vocation and can see myself in this role for the rest of my life BUT I will not allow myself to onlyl focus on those aspects of my life again.

[mirth]

 

I think in "earlier times", mothers who did not work outside the home did "more" with the kids in tow. Mothering wasn't the exclusive focus, but more what Mom did while also doing other stuff.

 

 

1849 is earlier. In the non-fiction book, London 1849, the author writes that average mothers frequently used laudanum to quiet babies for hours when there was a household of other kids to take of. In fact, laudanum was wildly popular medicine used across all social strata for a number of complications of the nerves. See, moms (and everyone else) have been trying to get by anyway they can in doing what they need to do as moms for ages.

 

The presence of mothering as an exclusive focus, I believe, to be a new phenomena.

 

I don't think so. Maybe the % of the population that actually has gained this thing called "free time" but not enough disposable income to hire tutors/nannies to outsource the duties is new though.

Edited January 19, 2010 by mirth

[Guest janainaz]

This isn't possible though. In some areas of the country (like mine) those two salaries are needed just to survive-unless your spouse makes enough for the both of you. But in my neck of the woods you need two adults making the median (33k? I think now?) to just get by. On a blog I read the mother was single in NY with two kids and made 200k and felt like she was living in poverty. I have friends in NYC who are empty nesters and make as much and also feel as if they are barely making ends meet. So, it's not a matter of downsizing or living with less. In some cases it's what they to to survive-and they are grateful that they HAVE jobs.

 

We upped and moved from So. Cal. when my son was 7 months old. We left it all behind. It's a choice.

[Jayne J]

Adding another thought.

 

The presence of mothering as an exclusive focus, I believe, to be a new phenomena.

 

 

Just my very little contribution here, but I think it may be more of a reversion than a new phenomena. If you read much from the Victorian era, you'll notice that much of the advice of the time is very familiar, in terms of not focusing on your children, to the detriment of your marriage especially. I collect household manuals and advice books from different times, and many of them address the need for a mother to keep herself interesting and to keep up with her own pursuits.

 

I think previous to that time, say 1700's and before, you may be right in saying that women didn't tend to focus so exclusively on motherhood. Largely because they were vitally needed in other capacities such as food production, clothing manufacture and all the millions of other things that a self-sufficient household needed. She had inherent economic value, even though she didn't work outside the home. When the industial revolution changed things, and her work at home became less vital to her familys survival, she either had to leave the home to work, or find something else to do at home. It seems like the rise of motherhood and "craftyness" as occupations started right about then. And it seems to have cycled round and round since then, in varying degrees.

 

I am, BTW, a happy SAHM convinced of my own economic worth to my family, and crafty to boot, so none of this is said in denigration of the modern at-home-mother.:D

[Quiver0f10]

I've been thinking about this for a long time. Clearly it emerges from my life experience. It's a radical departure from what I used to believe and also what I have posted on message boards many years ago.

 

I believe every adult should either have or be aquiring a skill and/or education that can be used for income. My own children are expected to either go to college, in the armed forces, have market needed vocational training or have an exceptional artistic or sports talent that can generate income.

 

I honesty think that many Americans have idealized "family" and made an idol out of the concept. I do not believe that mothering is supposed to be a full time focus. I do believe that the younger the children, the more maternal time, energy and focus is needed, but I do not believe "mothering" and homemaking is supposed to be a life long focus. I also think this accounts for at least part of the high percentage of depression (diagnosed and otherwise) in at home moms.

 

I believe we've become child-centered and it's to the detriment of everyone: mothers, fathers and children. Businesses geared to children, marketed to families are a rather dubious luxury item (kids' cooking centers, birthday party places, etc) The over-abundance of classes, sports, expectations of involvement, while they might enrich a child's life, serve as a collective group to make children the out of persepctive focus of time, energy, money, etc.

 

I believe that mothers need to be, do and offer something "more". There are an unlimited amount of possibilities, needs, jobs, volunteer situations, ministries.

 

Teach an adult to read

organize a program getting professional clothing to people in half way houses

Have a ministry to meet the needs of the older generation

Visit nursing homes

Give classes on painting, art history, diabetes, car repair

Volunteer at a thrift shop

Volunteer at a food pantry...........

 

There is time to do many things: I write this from a decently clean home, 3 children testing at grade level, having a 3/4 time job and attending school full time.

 

While I do realize this your opinion I strongly disagree with you. I feel God has called me to be a wife, mother and my children's teacher. I am content in my calling and have no need or desire to do something outside the house.

 

It saddens me that a mother would try to make those that are happy and content in their own calling to feel like there aren't doing enough and "need to do more."

[Quiver0f10]

Joanne....

 

I'm quite surprised at the assumptions you are making here.

 

Where are the stats for the "high percentage of depression in at home moms"? How many of this percentage have you spoken with to determine that you know the cause of some of this depression? Could there be other reasons for depression? Money, relationships, other obligations? I need to see a study, because frankly, I know *many* sahm and I don't see a high number of women with depression. (I will say that I don't ask every mom if she suffers with depression ;) )

 

You don't believe mothering and homemaking is supposed to be a lifelong focus for whom? You? Every woman in America? Why would anyone paint all women/mothers with such a broad brush? As other posters have mentioned, each woman's path is different and there is NO WAY one person could suppose to know that each woman must do something else besides mother.

 

You also know what mothers need?! Whew. When you know me, know my family, know how we live, what we do and what our needs are, then you may know what I need. Until then, that is quite the presupposition, don't you think?

 

Some families are child-centered. Some are family-centered. Some are neither. While I may not agree with the focus of some families, I do know that there are all types of functioning families and people. What is good for our family certainly may not work for yours. Not only that, but it would be difficult for someone to look at our family and determine whether or not we are child- or family-focused. Can't always be determined by looking in from the outside. (BTW, 15 yrs ago Ezzo was saying the exact same thing you are saying now. Sears, iirc, espoused the child-centered home.)

 

And what, exactly, is "out of perspective focus"? By whose standards? What do you mean "detriment"? How do you qualify that?

 

Now, had you written your post about you and only you, I could understand. It is premature, imo, to express these thoughts as though they pertain to the entire world of families and mothers, esp without broad range studies wrt depression.

 

Respectfully,

Aggie

 

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

[Caraway]

I think that anyone who can say to homeschooling moms of young children that they need to do more HAS FORGOTTEN WHAT IT IS LIKE. :glare:

[lionfamily1999]

We're wierd. Dh and I aren't worried about me earning an income. To his way of thinking I work harder and easily earn half of what he makes, iykwIm. While motherhood might not need to be a full-time, life-long occupation I think for many it is and (assuming their kids aren't being nagged to death) good for them. As for me, I'm dh's wife. That may not pay much, but it makes us both happy.

 

I think that everyone should be required to allow others to live however they see fit, as long as it doesn't actually impose on their way to life.

[PineFarmMom]

While I do realize this your opinion I strongly disagree with you. I feel God has called me to be a wife, mother and my children's teacher. I am content in my calling and have no need or desire to do something outside the house.

 

It saddens me that a mother would try to make those that are happy and content in their own calling to feel like there aren't doing enough and "need to do more."

 

Honestly? I'm really not sure that was the goal of the OP, but it does need to be said that that is the "feeling" that comes from the OP whether intended or not.

 

Like you, I have found no greater joy than being with my kids and guiding them. It's one of those things I get one shot at. If there is anything I commonly wonder, it is if I do too much outside the home and pursue other things rather than too little. This is definitely a God thing for us as well...it has no earthly resemblance to what anyone would have said I'd choose when I was younger.

[Annie Laurie]

We're wierd. Dh and I aren't worried about me earning an income. To his way of thinking I work harder and easily earn half of what he makes.

 

 

This is our situation as well. My husband has said many times that me doing what I do at home enables him to be able to do what he does at work. If I were working too, or if he were a single parent, he wouldn't be able to do what he does now in the same way. So my being at home contributes to the income he's able to earn.

[Hillary in KS]

Joanne....

 

I'm quite surprised at the assumptions you are making here.

 

Where are the stats for the "high percentage of depression in at home moms"? How many of this percentage have you spoken with to determine that you know the cause of some of this depression? Could there be other reasons for depression? Money, relationships, other obligations? I need to see a study, because frankly, I know *many* sahm and I don't see a high number of women with depression. (I will say that I don't ask every mom if she suffers with depression ;) )

 

You don't believe mothering and homemaking is supposed to be a lifelong focus for whom? You? Every woman in America? Why would anyone paint all women/mothers with such a broad brush? As other posters have mentioned, each woman's path is different and there is NO WAY one person could suppose to know that each woman must do something else besides mother.

 

You also know what mothers need?! Whew. When you know me, know my family, know how we live, what we do and what our needs are, then you may know what I need. Until then, that is quite the presupposition, don't you think?

 

Some families are child-centered. Some are family-centered. Some are neither. While I may not agree with the focus of some families, I do know that there are all types of functioning families and people. What is good for our family certainly may not work for yours. Not only that, but it would be difficult for someone to look at our family and determine whether or not we are child- or family-focused. Can't always be determined by looking in from the outside. (BTW, 15 yrs ago Ezzo was saying the exact same thing you are saying now. Sears, iirc, espoused the child-centered home.)

 

And what, exactly, is "out of perspective focus"? By whose standards? What do you mean "detriment"? How do you qualify that?

 

Now, had you written your post about you and only you, I could understand. It is premature, imo, to express these thoughts as though they pertain to the entire world of families and mothers, esp without broad range studies wrt depression.

 

Respectfully,

Aggie

 

:hurray:

 

BRAVO!

 

Well said. Thank you, Aggie.

 

:iagree:

[laughing lioness]

I think that everyone should be required to allow others to live however they see fit, as long as it doesn't actually impose on their way to life.

 

While I agree with your first paragraph I strongly disagree with the 2nd. How we live always imposes itself on others lives. The choices that I make in the "privacy" of my own home have far reaching impact.

My choosing to be a homemaker has affected the lives of my 5 kids, their future spouses and children, my husband, in-laws, parents, sisters, neighbors, friends, community and the politics of where I live; whether that is ever acknowldeged or not is another matter. Our "choices" manifest themselves in actions and inform how we love, disagree, spend, discuss, vote, etc.

[lionfamily1999]

This is our situation as well. My husband has said many times that me doing what I do at home enables him to be able to do what he does at work. If I were working too, or if he were a single parent, he wouldn't be able to do what he does now in the same way. So my being at home contributes to the income he's able to earn.

Thanks, I put that a little bit roughly and you smoothed it right out!

While I agree with your first paragraph I strongly disagree with the 2nd. How we live always imposes itself on others lives. The choices that I make in the "privacy" of my own home have far reaching impact.

My choosing to be a homemaker has affected the lives of my 5 kids, their future spouses and children, my husband, in-laws, parents, sisters, neighbors, friends, community and the politics of where I live; whether that is ever acknowldeged or not is another matter. Our "choices" manifest themselves in actions and inform how we love, disagree, spend, discuss, vote, etc.

I see what you mean. I was trying to do that "your rights stop where mine start" deal and I guess it didn't translate well.

Edited January 19, 2010 by lionfamily1999

[Jenny in GA]

Adding another thought.

 

I think in "earlier times", mothers who did not work outside the home did "more" with the kids in tow. Mothering wasn't the exclusive focus, but more what Mom did while also doing other stuff.

 

The presence of mothering as an exclusive focus, I believe, to be a new phenomena.

 

 

Yeah, I think this is true too. Whether it's good or bad is debatable.

 

I can't picture my, or my husband's, grandmothers spending their days taking their kids to the park, or playing with them, or anything. They would either put the kids to work somewhat, or "keep an eye on them" while they did other things.

 

If you've ever read stuff by "parenting expert" John Rosemond, he talks about this constantly.

[Rosy]

This is our situation as well. My husband has said many times that me doing what I do at home enables him to be able to do what he does at work. If I were working too, or if he were a single parent, he wouldn't be able to do what he does now in the same way. So my being at home contributes to the income he's able to earn.

 

I don't think it's an either/or thing. I think I can fully support my husband, homeschool our kids, schlep them around to their stuff, take care of the home, and still pursue outside interests. I just have to choose things that are flexible and can be worked around everyone else's schedule (e.g. scheduling portrait sittings at a time that is convenient for my DH) or things that benefit my family (teaching Sunday School or co-op classes).

 

My husband has said this many times to me as well...including times when he has worked 60+ hours that week or been involved in major home improvement projects. My family is my highest priority--but not my only priority. And I like to think it benefits my kids to see me as well-rounded, intelligent, active in my church and community, contributing to the well-being of others.

[Jenny in GA]

Someone had posted that a lot of mothers work FT, but wish they didn't have to.

 

A few things come to mind:

 

1) I remember being I had kids, working in an office and talking with a few men who were married but didn't have kids yet. They were saying things like, "I've told my wife, 'When we have kids, I expect you to still WORK!'"

 

At first I thought they were joking around, but they weren't.

 

2) I have a good friend who has several children and works FT and considers it very stressful and wishes she could cut back. But her husband has been doing free-lance work for a decade, will sometimes go a week or two with no work at all, and has no insurance. He doesn't want to change things because he likes his job. So she has to keep working FT, or else they cannot pay their bills.

 

3) Years ago we were talking to my husband's company's owner. (He is probably in his mid-60's now.)

 

This man said that when he was younger, it was considered an embarrassment to a man if you had a wife that worked FT. It made it look like you weren't enough of a man to support your family.

 

Nowadays, many men expect their wives to work FT, even if there are several children at home, and they see nothing wrong with that.

 

I find that very interesting.

[Sputterduck]

You tag people are so funny. lmao

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

My grandmother had 4 daughters. Two of them made home and family the focus of their lives. Two of them pursued careers. I suspect that if they had compared their lives when they were in their 40s the working moms would have considered themselves much happier.

 

Now that they are in their 60s and 70s the situation is quite different. Their second marriages did not work out, which is statistically not uncommon. They spent Christmas either alone, or with church friends.

 

The sisters who focused on home and family, have come out on the other side of the hard places in their marriages, and are enjoying a renewed intimacy with their husbands now that their kids are grown. Their kids CHOOSE to spend holidays and free weekends with them because their families are happy and rewarding.

 

I have a degree. I had a pre-children career that I enjoyed, and excelled at, but that is not where I choose to invest and make my life focus, even though other choices might be more rewarding for the time being. I keep my eyes on what I want to look back on at the end of my life....and that is not a job.

I do not believe that being a working mother is a big cause of divorce. You example makes it seem like that the mom who chose to work ended up with failed marriages and those who did not had lasting marriages. My maternal grandmother worked at various points in her life and had a successful marriage and family.

 

I know of many moms who work(ed) and have(had) successful marriages and and families. I think that the needs of every family are different. Ideally IMHO I think it is better for women and children to stay home in the younger years. OTOH I also think it is wise for women to have skills/education/trades to fall back on. I think both scenarios are valid choices. Frankly, I could never understand the mommy wars as a person who believes in human rights and women's rights:(

[Rosy]

Just for the sake of clarification...

 

having (or pursuing) a marketable skill is not the same thing as working outside the home.

 

having interests beyond parenting is not the same thing as neglecting parental duties

[amy g.]

I did not mean to imply there was a connection, but was simply stating how it all turned out in one family.

[Amy loves Bud]

I believe that mothers need to be, do and offer something "more".

 

 

 

 

I understand that you feel that you need to "be, do and offer something more", and I applaud your efforts to make that happen in your life. And I feel the same in my own life. But why should that apply to other thinking, adult women who have chosen the path of full-time homemaking and motherhood?

[keptwoman]

It just occured to me that this POV: namely that as SAH/Homeschool Mothers, we must have outside interests and/or keep our skills up to date/do more is just about the polar opposite to the view espoused in a recent thread which was we should give up all outside distractions to study ahead of our children. Can't win really :rofl:

[AuntieM]

(Possible repetition alert, I haven't read all the replies yet.)

 

Karen Andreola touches on this with what she calls "Mother Culture." I don't think she really means that a woman should move on to a new vocation, but that she should take time to learn and refresh herself along the way. Obviously, as the children grow older, there is more time to invest in personal interests.

 

I know that's not entirely the same thing, but that's as far as I'd want to go in taking a stand on what anyone else should do. I will say this, though, the constant drain of 24/7 motherhood that often comes with being a home educating family.... I fully appreciate how that can lead to depression.

 

With dh's recent cancer episode, I have been feeling bit uncomfortable with the fact that I really have no currently marketable job skills, excluding some things that are highly specialized....

[Jami]

It just occured to me that this POV: namely that as SAH/Homeschool Mothers, we must have outside interests and/or keep our skills up to date/do more is just about the polar opposite to the view espoused in a recent thread which was we should give up all outside distractions to study ahead of our children. Can't win really :rofl:

 

:lol: Great observation! Homeschooling doesn't develop marketable skills? I dare say full-time private tutoring for other people's children would be respected as valuable work and that tutor wouldn't be pushed to find *other* hobbies, skill, or work to increase future earning potential.

[Jennifer in NH]

I've been thinking about this for a long time. Clearly it emerges from my life experience. It's a radical departure from what I used to believe and also what I have posted on message boards many years ago.

 

I believe every adult should either have or be aquiring a skill and/or education that can be used for income. My own children are expected to either go to college, in the armed forces, have market needed vocational training or have an exceptional artistic or sports talent that can generate income.

 

I honesty think that many Americans have idealized "family" and made an idol out of the concept. I do not believe that mothering is supposed to be a full time focus. I do believe that the younger the children, the more maternal time, energy and focus is needed, but I do not believe "mothering" and homemaking is supposed to be a life long focus. I also think this accounts for at least part of the high percentage of depression (diagnosed and otherwise) in at home moms.

 

I believe we've become child-centered and it's to the detriment of everyone: mothers, fathers and children. Businesses geared to children, marketed to families are a rather dubious luxury item (kids' cooking centers, birthday party places, etc) The over-abundance of classes, sports, expectations of involvement, while they might enrich a child's life, serve as a collective group to make children the out of persepctive focus of time, energy, money, etc.

 

I believe that mothers need to be, do and offer something "more". There are an unlimited amount of possibilities, needs, jobs, volunteer situations, ministries.

 

Teach an adult to read

organize a program getting professional clothing to people in half way houses

Have a ministry to meet the needs of the older generation

Visit nursing homes

Give classes on painting, art history, diabetes, car repair

Volunteer at a thrift shop

Volunteer at a food pantry...........

 

There is time to do many things: I write this from a decently clean home, 3 children testing at grade level, having a 3/4 time job and attending school full time.

I haven't read past page one. I fiind this thinking rather sad. I also think this is what most working moms who feel guilty about their choice usually say. Now, I am am cutting out of here, because I do actually have to make dinner for my family.

[Remudamom]

Can't wade through all of this. I believe people who feel the need to inform others what they should be doing with their lives aren't happy with themselves.

Edited January 19, 2010 by Remudamom

[Remudamom]

I will have to respectfully disagree with you on a couple of points. First of all, I find full time homemaking to be a fulling, rewarding vocation that I am happy to consider an art form as well as a life-long focus. Within this vocation I do many, many things. Within the context of homemaking I volunteer, generate income, have a ministry, give and take classes, educate myself and others in various areas. Homemaking as a vocation does not exclued these things, but embraces them.

Secondly, as a MFT who is married to a psychologist who has been in the mental health field for over 20 years, I heartily disagree with the idealization of family. Imho we've idealized self, which is why we have divorce, abuse and a host of other dsyfunctions.

Lastly, I believe that more often than not entitlement, rather than homemaking as a profession, is the root of depression.

I finished a second master's degree 3 years ago, while homeschooling my 5 kids, running a large, successful homeschool cooperative and seeing 10+ clients a week; my home was reasonably clean and my kids all scored decently on the Iowa basic and yet while doing all of that I considered myself, and gladly so, a homemaker.

 

Yes, yes and yes. This thread is a self screaming mimi. I can't express myself as well as you, so thanks for saying it for me. All I can say is it's been through the cow.

 

A bit more than decently cleaned home, some grown children and some still growing, married 31 years and obsessed with life threatening hobby. All of which in my not so humble opinion means squat.

Edited January 19, 2010 by Remudamom

[Impish]

I believe a homeschooling mother of many is serving the world by responsibly raising and teaching her own.

 

I believe that she can serve alongside her children sometimes, in caring for the elderly, visiting nursing homes, teaching Sunday school classes that her children are in, and more.

 

But if she can't do that stuff...if all she can do is get up, clean her house, love her husband, and teach her children to be independent workers and givers instead of a drain on society, then may God bless her and the world thank her for her life's work.

:iagree:

I *had* immensely employable skills. They cost me my arm, and a pain free life, and the Me I used to be.

 

I realized, during a psych appt yesterday, that the only thing left for me is to be the best mother and wife I can be. No employer would ever hire me again. I'll never be working outside the house. I couldn't guarantee I'd show up for work for any given shift, nor complete the shift.

 

So...I'm a Mom. And a Wife. And those are life long commitments.

 

My best hope and dream is that we're allowed to adopt in the future. And I can raise my kids now, and hopefully those to join our family in the future to be loving, kind, empathetic, generous, hardworking adults with a love for God and Christ. Its whats left of me that I can do.

[lakotajm]

I believe a homeschooling mother of many is serving the world by responsibly raising and teaching her own.

 

I believe that she can serve alongside her children sometimes, in caring for the elderly, visiting nursing homes, teaching Sunday school classes that her children are in, and more.

 

But if she can't do that stuff...if all she can do is get up, clean her house, love her husband, and teach her children to be independent workers and givers instead of a drain on society, then may God bless her and the world thank her for her life's work.

:iagree:

 

I have a temperament that tends to explode when I do too many outside things. And, sadly, I explode upon my children. So, as paradoxical as it may sound, giving too much of my time and talents to my church has had the effect of causing my children to dislike church and feel less spiritual...because I get stretched too thin and complain, run late,forget things, criticize otherwise ignorable behavior, etc.

 

So I am a better Mom when I spend most of my time homeschooling them, cooking and cleaning when I can, and only doing an occasional outside project. We do once-a-week homeshool co-op (including community service projects)and oldest has Tae Kwon Do. I am a teacher for the kids in church. But when I begin saying yes to everyone's great ideas of what "we" ought to do, I flip out. I only have 3 kids, not 6 or 9. My home is probably not as clean as Joanne's. But I am not Joanne. Everyone is different in what they can handle. So, there is no way I could do what Joanne is doing and be off meds. ;)

 

Lakota

[Mom24bz1g]

I wonder............Joanne............if your life had turned out differently, if you would feel the same way. What if you had never divorced? What if you had a stable, and even, happy marriage, where the husband's income more than met your family's needs? What if you had a husband who felt that his paycheck was completely yours? He tells you that his career is only as good as it is because of you. Not just tells you, but tells anyone who will listen. Because every day that he walks out the door he knows his children are safe with their mom, getting a great education, learning to be upstanding citizens, etc, etc.

 

I don't actually know any homeschooling mothers who do not do anything outside the home. Even if the things they do are somewhat child-centered. Co-ops, sunday school, etc.

 

When my kids were little, mothering consumed my life. They were young and close together and needed me, their mom. There is not an ounce of regret for either myself or my husband that I was there for the kids. Not an ounce. I have no regrets about that time of my life.

 

My youngest is now 5 and I am finding I have a ton more time on my hands. I am going to join a gym for 12 weeks. I can think of many other things to do. Most involve taking the kids with me. Simply put, I enjoy them. I enjoy their company. They enjoy mine. The other things involve taking my husband with me. Or all of us going together.

 

I am sorry your life has been so hard this last year. Truly, my heart aches for all that has happened to you. That being said, I do think it is important not to project your life's disappointments into a blanket statement that ALL women should follow. Because if your life was different, I suspect your viewpoints would be different.

 

When my oldest was 2 years old I came across your attachment parenting, non-punitive parenting on a message board. It changed how I parent. I had never heard of such parenting. Many thanks to you because I (and my husband) like the mom I am today.

 

I don't have a great way to end this because it's such a touchy subject, but know that you are in my prayers.

 

Michele

[Joanne]

Just for the sake of clarification...

 

having (or pursuing) a marketable skill is not the same thing as working outside the home.

 

having interests beyond parenting is not the same thing as neglecting parental duties

 

Thank you. And the OP doesn't come close to devaluing SAHMing or asserting WOH is desirable.

[Joanne]

I think that anyone who can say to homeschooling moms of young children that they need to do more HAS FORGOTTEN WHAT IT IS LIKE. :glare:

 

Actually, I haven't forgotten at all and the OP talks about the intense mom needs of littles.

[Joanne]

Can't wade through all of this. I believe people who feel the need to inform others what they should be doing with their lives aren't happy with themselves.

 

Sorry you feel that way. I was simply sharing a perspective and opinion I felt was on topic for many of the decisions board members make here.

 

You tend to be as bossy as I am; we just typically boss from opposite sides.