S/O About being grilled by PS teachers . . .

[WTMCassandra]

I was cornered and grilled a few months ago by a man who went to our church for a short time, and I heard many of the same things HeatherLynn experienced.

 

Except.

 

This man added something that I felt like I didn't have a good answer for. Would you help me brainstorm possible responses so I have a clue if it happens again?

 

After me talking about two-on-one teacher/student ratio and working at one's own pace, and him countering with how MUCH he made sure he did the same with his students :001_huh:, he said:

 

"But being in school teaches children to work in groups, and that's so important. Group projects are what the business world is about these days, and school is the best place to learn those skills."

 

My knee-jerk snarky tendency is to think that all I remember from group projects is that other people got credit for my hard work as I pulled the slackers along with me. But thankfully I did not say this.

 

At the time, I could (and did) cite that my children were doing that very thing in a Lego League group, but my answer felt lame to me (and of course the Lego League team is now long finished).

 

Have any of you encountered this kind of argument? How have you answered it?

 

ETA: He came to our Bible study for a few weeks and ended up grudgingly admitting that our children were great, but NATURALLY he thought they were "the exception." Sigh.

[skaterbabs]

There are all kinds of ways to work in a group; few businesses require group projects of the type you see in schools. My husband works with five other people on each "project", but they rarely work "together". Instead, it's more of "this is the job, this is what we're doing today, you're going here, he's going there, and I'm doing this." Each has a specialized skill and is responsible for his part of the job. If one person doesn't work well with the group, that person tends to choose another place to work. (The company DH works for is a small, almost family, company filled with very strong personalities.)

[Orthodox6]

School group projects are a joke, even at the college level. The bright ones do the work, and the slackers get equal credit. The man's argument leaks all over the place through holes. Not the largest "hole" of which is that school group projects lump together age-peers who are at (in theory) the same level of education, and assorted levels of social skills. . . . Compare that against a workplace "group project" involving a couple of Ph.D.s, several B.S.s (or B.A.s), a couple of people with high school diploma only, a man who thinks women are inferior to men, a heavily-pregnant woman, a man who battles daily migraines, and a deaf staff member. THAT is a realistic "group project" which must be carried out successfully !

 

Back to the real world of homeschooling . . .

 

scouting programs

4-H programs

team sports

orchestra

band

choir

ministry programs

The "JASON" Project

etc.

 

Now, what was that question about homeschoolers learning how to work effectively in a group situation ?

[Jean in Newcastle]

How long does it take to learn to work in a group? The assumption here is that you need practice in these kind of learning/working environments for many years on end. But that isn't true. I went to a one - room schoolhouse in elementary. I didn't have a reading group - no one else in the school was at my level. But the one year I did attend public school in elementary (4th grade) I entered a reading group and had no trouble.

 

Later I went to a college prep boarding school where I was in much larger classes than I had ever experienced before. I doubt anyone else in the school knew that I was the "country bumpkin" who didn't know how to learn in that environment. I picked it up immediately.

 

Later, in college, we had a variety of learning/working environments. I did work a bit more to learn how to pace myself but again, almost all the college students I knew picked it up without a whole lot of help.

 

When I worked at an engineering firm I was part of a couple of different work groups. But the dynamics of each group were different and were nothing like anything I had experienced in any of my schooling. I picked it up with no difficulty.

 

I suppose that someone with social problems - esp. in picking up on social cues (I'm thinking someone with Aspergers or similar) would need more specific modeling for groups like that. But I would think that they would need it for each specific group.

[Kathleen in VA]

That's what families do and they do it better than schools because they are not limited to everyone being the same age. Families accomplish a lot, at least ours does. We do the laundry, prepare meals, keep the kitchen clean, shop for groceries, keep the house and lawn clean and occasionally we help my dh with his second job, cleaning several doctors' offices. All my children are involved in one way or another in the running of our house. We are a team. It takes the same sort of cooperation to run a home as it does to run a business, imo. All the places I've ever worked required me to interact with people of all ages. Some were much older and wiser, but perhaps not as quick on the draw. Others were fresh out of school, idealistic, hardworking but perhaps not as cautious as the older ones. Some just weren't very bright:). The dynamic of a cooperative family is much closer to the business world than that of the classroom. That's my take anyway.

[eternalknot]

The interesting thing about group work (in the work force) is that it very closely mirrors "group work" in society. In my job I am constantly being paired with different groups of colleagues for anywhere from 3 days up to 21 days per month of work together. I work with people of all different ages, gender, orientation, culture, personality type, competence, and length of time with the company. It is definitely less a homogenous group, segregated by age or ability, and I suspect this is true for most of the labor force.

 

Effectively working within a group is definitely an important skill to have, not just in the workforce but by virtue of any relationship with society (work, personal, romantic, platonic, et cetera). And it's something that we learn (not always very well or actively!) from day one from the time we join our primary group: the family.

 

Honestly, I think just being a functioning member of a family prepares people for "group work" in the workforce. I know I learned more about people and people skills from my own family than I did anywhere else.

[teamturner]

I don't recall working in a group until college and I was in ps for my entire education. I think that if we teach our children character and morals, then they ought to grow into adults that can work in a group. Some people eventually become managers so do we need to teach children how to be managers and some to be followers. That would of course be ridiculous.

 

And someone else mentioned all the group activities that children can participate in and all of these teach kids skills for relating in groups.

[klmama]

My answer for the group question:

 

My dc are learning to work in a group - there are five members in our immediate family, and we work together to accomplish whatever needs to be done. The dc are learning how to get along with others, to work for the benefit of the group instead of just for their own interests, to share, and to offer their strengths for the good of the whole group while also working to improve in their areas of weakness. They are learning compassion, patience, and teamwork. They are learning to deal with the frustration of doing more work than someone else. They are learning to respond maturely to frustrations and disappointments caused by others' inconsiderate actions. They are learning to be decent human beings who work well with others.

[Caraway]

I always hated working in groups. The kids who were smart (or cared) did all the work in order not to have their grades dragged down by the slackers. I have never been in a "real world" situation that truly mirrors ps group work.

 

I recently read about how employers hated group work oriented schooling. Perhaps in Dumbing Us Down?

[WTMCassandra]

OK. Several of you are saying what I would like to say, that group work is best learned in a family.

 

But.

 

I don't feel qualified to say that since there is only the four of us, compared to many of my friends with delightful large families.

 

So I guess I need to get over my feelings of inadequacy in this area. Four people is enough.

 

Thank you!

[Orthodox6]

Cassandra, I wasn't citing family as the primary place for learning group cooperation. My children's ages span from 22 to 10. The children "fell" into two sets of two each -- the 22 and 20 yo, and the 15 and 10 yo. We even used to refer to them as "The Bigs" and "The Littles". I think the greater portion of our children learning to "work effectively in groups" has occurred outside of the home -- at church, in outside activities, and with friends.

 

I still think that the man at your church gave you a non-reality argument. Please reread my comparison of school projects versus workplace projects. I spent a lot of years in the workplace, and a lot of years in school, and drew on those environments for my examples.

 

You don't need to waste a millisecond on feeling "inadequate", nor on thinking your family is "too small" for learning group cooperation.

[WTMCassandra]

Thanks for the encouragement. I was referring to several posters in general, not you in particular ; ). I did read your list.

[WTMCassandra]

Projects in the business world tend to be fundamentally different. They depend more on your ability to get along with others and to do your part than anything else.

 

 

This was my experience in the workforce, but I've been out for about eight years now, so I was beginning to doubt myself.

[HollyinNNV]

My response would have been the following:

 

The unspoken assumption you are making is that homeschooled children do not work well in groups. You are also assuming that public schooled children do work well in groups. Do you have any research that backs up either of these assumptions?

 

ETA: People say lots of things that are not backed up by anything but their observations, clouded by personal prejudices. I take everything people claim is true with a huge grain of salt.

Edited July 17, 2009 by HollyinNNV

[Dobela]

When I was teaching public school, we were taught how to form groups. First, you don't let them form themselves. Then you have to make sure they are diverse yet represent the make-up of the class. So, in your groups you will have a combination of the brightest, the average, and the one with learning disabilities or behavior problems. What almost always happened is that that brightest ended up teaching the other 2 or leading the group. The others might have done some work but unless the child leading was an effective leader, they didn't have much real say in what was assigned. The goal was "Teamwork" and making sure you could work together. For the bright child, this was torture if the teacher said one grade for the group. Usually another child always brought down the grade. For the child at the bottom, this was great because the grade would be high just because the bright child was on the team. Teachers were encouraged to give a group grade, not individual grades for the individual components. Personally, I just see this as more socialist conditioning - not allowing anyone to excell further than the other person.

[WTMCassandra]

My response would have been the following:

 

The unspoken assumption you are making is that homeschooled children do not work well in groups. You are also assuming that public schooled children do work well in groups. Do you have any research that backs up either of these assumptions?

 

Wow. That is terrific! (scribbling notes)

 

I tend to get frozen in situations and don't think well on my feet. You're right--I need to put it back on him to prove his assertions!

 

THANK YOU.

 

ETA: That similar kind of response could work well for the ubiquitous socialization question, too.

[stripe]

I hated group work in school. And I once underwent a propaganda session as part of orientation into a program in which we were repeatedly told that sharing is better for all, blah blah. (No clarity on why we were each assigned individual grades, then.) All that aside, I have always dreamed about being part of some fantastic group (perhaps where I would be the least interested, least intelligent, least hardworking member of the team); I believe it could exist and would be wonderful.

 

I am following this thread with interest.

[HollyinNNV]

Yes, this kind of response has served me well in different situations, especially political ones.

Holly

 

Wow. That is terrific! (scribbling notes)

 

I tend to get frozen in situations and don't think well on my feet. You're right--I need to put it back on him to prove his assertions!

 

THANK YOU.

 

ETA: That similar kind of response could work well for the ubiquitous socialization question, too.

[OrganicAnn]

I think that he is confusing "making" kids work in groups and "teaching" kids to work in groups. Even in business school they would throw us a group project with the rationale that work is all about working cooperatively, but there was very little thought going into it. What if one person disagreed with the group? What if one person did most of the work? All I learned was to pick your group wisely and if you were in a poor group you were scr*wed. I've worked for many years in business and there really wasn't that much 'group' work in my job. You had to get along with people in your department, figure out what was important to your boss, and work within deadlines and produce quality work. I don't think school projects teach anything like that.

[Janet in WA]

 

But being in school teaches children to work in groups, and that's so important. Group projects are what the business world is about these days, and school is the best place to learn those skills.

All of our sons attended school for some period of time -- the oldest graduated from ps. They did, in fact, work in groups in school. But our experience was that school was hardly the "best place" for learning to work in groups. Boy Scouts was actually the best experience our sons had with working in groups. I can't think of a single thing that happens in schools that isn't done better somewhere else.

[KidsHappen]

My children's ages span from 22 to 10. The children "fell" into two sets of two each -- the 22 and 20 yo, and the 15 and 10 yo. We even used to refer to them as "The Bigs" and "The Littles".

 

 

I can relate to this. The only difference is we have three sets, the bigs, the teens and the littles.

[johnandtinagilbert]

School group projects are a joke, even at the college level. The bright ones do the work, and the slackers get equal credit. The man's argument leaks all over the place through holes. Not the largest "hole" of which is that school group projects lump together age-peers who are at (in theory) the same level of education, and assorted levels of social skills. . . . Compare that against a workplace "group project" involving a couple of Ph.D.s, several B.S.s (or B.A.s), a couple of people with high school diploma only, a man who thinks women are inferior to men, a heavily-pregnant woman, a man who battles daily migraines, and a deaf staff member. THAT is a realistic "group project" which must be carried out successfully !

 

Back to the real world of homeschooling . . .

 

scouting programs

4-H programs

team sports

orchestra

band

choir

ministry programs

The "JASON" Project

etc.

 

Now, what was that question about homeschoolers learning how to work effectively in a group situation ?

BAM! You hit that one right on the head!

[Apiphobic]

Nah, just tell 'em your kids watch The Apprentice and they'll learn all they need to know about "working in a group."

:tongue_smilie:

[MomsintheGarden]

I think that he is confusing "making" kids work in groups and "teaching" kids to work in groups. Even in business school they would throw us a group project with the rationale that work is all about working cooperatively, but there was very little thought going into it. What if one person disagreed with the group? What if one person did most of the work? All I learned was to pick your group wisely and if you were in a poor group you were scr*wed. I've worked for many years in business and there really wasn't that much 'group' work in my job. You had to get along with people in your department, figure out what was important to your boss, and work within deadlines and produce quality work. I don't think school projects teach anything like that.

 

 

:iagree:

 

My oldest son did not work in a formal school group until going away to engineering school. He made a quick adjustment to working in "teams" (what they call it now), and rapidly figured out that it was important to put together your team from the very first day of class. It was a game, and he learned to play it.

 

I don't agree with your adversary's assumptions, but I believe that our children should at least be made aware that some majors/colleges require working in teams, and what it really means. I only worked on one team project at the same engineering school 20+ years ago. There were four of us on the team, but one person did not return our calls or show up for any of our work meetings. The three of us who did the work went to the professor and told him about the other student - he received an F.

 

This is an interesting discussion - thanks!

GardenMom

[JWSJ]

"But being in school teaches children to work in groups, and that's so important. Group projects are what the business world is about these days, and school is the best place to learn those skills."

 

Has he worked outside the school system?

 

Traditional school does not teach group skills.

 

Now that I reflect on it, I don't know any active public school teachers that have good group skills. Teaching was their first job in many cases. The school systems don't promote group skills within their own staff.

[DawnM]

Oh brother!

 

My boys are in cub scouts and the oldest is now a boyscout. They have to work in groups every week there.

 

They also are in lego league.....8 boys, one robot! They work in a group there.

 

But, truly, at the end of the day, it comes down to individual performance!

What group work does it take to get into med school? What group work does it take to get into any program? Do you get in as a group? NO! Individual acheivement and merit!

 

What hogwash! BTW:

 

Dawn

[Danestress]

"Yeah, that's probably one place where my school is weak, but I think my kids have good interpersonal skills and will be okay with group work when they are asked to do it. My real goals are to help them be excelleng writers, insightful readers, and capable mathematicians. It doesn't seem like our schools produce enough of that."

[Elizabeth Conley]

I would question the premise that he has an entitlement to act as an inquisitor toward you, and that you are obliged to come up with answers to satisfy him.

 

Since I started home schooling, I've been surprised by the number of people who have suddenly gone on the attack. I've been equally surprised by their identity. People whom I assumed would be supportive, or at least polite, have been downright nasty. I've recently decided that they're not entitled to grill me, and I don't owe them answers.

 

These people are horse's behinds.

Edited July 17, 2009 by Elizabeth Conley

[gingersmom]

My daughter is on a synchronized skating team. She has no choice but to work in a group. Groups of anywhere from 12-20 skaters all doing the same exact thing at the same exact time.

 

I have no fear she will do just fine working in "groups" in whatever job she is in.

[stripe]

Oh, but how will she know how to perform differing roles within a group instead of just following the leader? (Just kidding.)

 

(I woke up this morning remembering that once I did work in an exceptional group, and I felt guilty for my previous post.)

[WishboneDawn]

Here's what I tend to think when people bring up issues of how school prepares kids for some aspect of "real life".

 

School needs 13 years to teach kids how to work in groups? Really? And that doesn't strike you as strange or sad?

 

I'm not preparing my kids to fit specific scenarios (and if I was it darn well wouldn't take over a decade) because by the time they graduate that scenario may be obsolete or they may choose a path in life where the scenario doesn't apply. So I'm preparing my kids to be eager and flexible learners so that when they encounter something unfamiliar they'll be able to adapt.

 

Any claim like that is based on two basic premises that are false. One, that all children will follow the same career path and two, that the ability to work in new environments disappears after age 18. Feel free to call people on that.

[Melinda]

When we get the line about group work, I tell them that we are members of a co-op and that the kids are on sports teams. Between all that and living in our family, they learn to work together with others. :)

[Guest Barb B]

OH forgive me if this has been said (I didn't have time to read all the posts but will later). The BEST group preparation is the homeschooling family. We are with each other 24 hours per day 7 days per week almost! That is the best preparation I know for real life/work relationships. One learns to forgive, overlook, support . . . each other. Lets face it - as homeschool families either we learn this "group cooperation" stuff or will drive each other insane!

 

Barb

 

Added: maybe you should ask him if he thought his wife could stay home ALL THE TIME with thier kids, teach them . . . and have them all speaking by the end of the day, week . . .

Edited July 17, 2009 by Barb B

[TravelingChris]

Other than Scouts, 4-H and other youth groups, here is where a lot of us have group activities where they have to function as a unit. Team Sports, sports whre they share the area (swimming, diving, shooting, etc); music groups like band, orchestra, or choirs; and theater productions. I would daresay that almost all the homeschool kids I have met in 15 years of homeschooling did one or more of the above things- youth group service projects, musical or theatrical perfomances, or sports. Mine have done all three but haven't had to waste too much time on so-called group projects. My middle one had a share of that in a Movies and Lit class and found out the truism that the dedicated and smarter kids end up doing all the work.

 

The main group activity that people end up doing in workplaces is the staff meeting and I don't see anything like that going on in schools. On the other hand, I do see such activities in groups like Boy Scouts and 4-H.

[Stacy in NJ]

Projects in the business world tend to be fundamentally different. They depend more on your ability to get along with others and to do your part than anything else.

 

In school the projects were things we were suppose to "do together". but lacked leadership and clear vision, direction.

 

In a business setting there is a boss. Boss tells everyone their part and each person is expected to do their part. There is also a chain of command if someone is not doing their part. Certainly you ahve to work together, but it is different than in a school setting. I remember those projects where I did all of the work and four slackers got to share my grade. I was lucky if they didn't manage to bring my grade down with them. This does happen in corporate environments (my dh was in one) but we refer to these as "toxic" and that is why people quit or refer to HR and all kinds of things. School children don't have recourse.

 

I am not willing to sacrifice all of the benefits of homeschooling and my children's academics so that they can learn how to gracefully deal with the joke that is "group learning". As the OP pointed out there are other opportunities to learn some of those skills that don't need to permeate my children's lives. Your kids learned those things in LL. They don't need to keep learning it day in and day out for years and years.

 

Besides all of that - I have told my 12 yo that if he can learn to work with his little sister he can work with anyone. ever. anyone at all.

 

:iagree:

 

The nature of groups in an actual work environment and groups in a school or academic setting are fundamentally different. In a work enviroment they accurate reflect the specific task that need to get done successfully. In schools they are artificial constructs.

 

Every person needs to be able to communicate with others and coordinate tasks and generally just cooperate and get along. These can be taught in almost any environment.

[Jen in PA]

Group activities in schools are very different from group situations in real life. They are probably a bit useful, but not as useful as the group situations my dc encounter each time they step onto a playground or enter a public swimming pool. Meeting new people, forming alliances, making and carrying out plans together... those are skills kids can get through team sports, group lessons, playing with neighborhood kids, etc.

[Laurie4b]

Tactically, what I would do is to 1) agree. Of course, it's important for children to learn to work in groups. Then 2) Ask. What causes you to think that homeschooled children don't? (curious tone, not confrontive tone)

 

This asks him to put facts behind his opinion. He then gets to reveal his knowledge or lack thereof of homeschooling and puts him on the defensive not you, and yet you haven't been obnoxious. So you don't need to come here to build a case. You have the facts; he doesn't. You don't need to answer him. He needs to back up his assertion with facts about the lack of group experiences homeschoolers have.

 

Yes, family is one place to learn about group functioning, but it isn't the only place that homeschoolers learn that (I hope). Many homeschool kids have very wide varieties of group experiences.

 

And I totally agree with the posters who posted their intense dislike for what passes as group learning in schools. Ideal group learning doesn't have a smart kid, some average kids, and kids with challenges. It has people of various gifts, each gift being important to the team. That means that none of the labeling (smart, ave, challenged) is relevant. What is relevant is who is creative? Who is organized? Who can be depended on to really attend to the details? Who can motivate the group to stay on task? Who provides the social "glue" for the group? And in real life work situations where there is team work, you better believe that there are penalties for slackers. What this style of "group learning" does is teach slackers that they can get away with it; whereas in real life, it's much harder to.

 

One of the very best group experiences my kids have had is participating in Odyssey of the Mind. There, you need kids who are "engineer" types to work with kids who are "drama" types, etc. It's great for them. Being in a band, a Bible study, a mission team, a baseball team, etc. are all group experiences.

[LMA]

On the side, this "team" concept of working does not always make one successful. My husband and many others were laid off in January. The company model was "team playing". It didn't help keep the company from floundering. After he talked with many recruiters and interviewers, team problem solving is not the most important thing with being successful. You are still reviewed individually on your job performance in the end even if the team model is the way in the company. His team made many bad decisions about not moving forward with initiatives and it cost them contracts with their customers and eventually their job. If you present the "cons" about a team plan in response to the "pros", you are seen as a naysayer . Never mind that the "cons" showed themselves after the plan was implemented. If you are not a team player in a company, you are seen as a troublemaker. (My husband landed a much better job and starts Monday, btw.)

 

Here is an article that touches about letting the group model go too far. It was originally in Adventure Magazine. I think as a society we don't emphasize enough individual results and the team model is used to mask the weakness of the individuals instead of helping individuals build strength individually and work on their weaknesses. We don't emphasize individual problem solving. Also, I think that this article explains some of the hostility toward homeschoolers. I think that it is more important to teach your children people skills and to get along with people of different opinions or personalities. This will help them get along with any groups.

 

http://ngadventure.typepad.com/blog/deep-survival-mob-mentality.html

[Nicole M]

My knee-jerk snarky tendency is to think that all I remember from group projects is that other people got credit for my hard work as I pulled the slackers along with me. But thankfully I did not say this.

 

 

Why not say that? It was my first thought as well. I think that asking children to do group projects at an early age sets them up to learn the habit of doing it badly -- that is, one person does all the work. (There was one time I was not the worker bee, and it was because the project overwhelmed me, not because I was lazy. It was horrible.)

 

I talked to a professor about this. They do lots of collaborative projects in the classes at the college where I work, and when I learned this, I was anxious for my own children. However, the faculty do not expect students coming in to know how to do this well. They teach them the skills they need along the way. And they also oversee enough of the project that the slackers are held accountable.

 

So that would be my real answer. If I were inclined to have a conversation about it, I might discuss the developmental issues. I think in schools we ask children to do many things they are not ready to do. Don't get me started on "partnership conferences"...!

[Dirtroad]

You are not training the member of a group! You are training an individual to be the best that he can be. You are not training an employee but a young person who can think, feel , and contribute his/her absolute BEST to society!

 

As your student becomes more educated, learns respect & cooperation in a family & life settings, and learns to be self-motivated in studies and activities.... he will blend easily into group settings when necessary.

 

Also, business trends change with the wind. Who knows where they will lean in 2 or 10 years.

 

Big issue.... this man assumes you child is only going to be able to work for a corporation or big business. What if you child starts his own business.... ???

 

Anyone can set through a meeting & nod! NOT MANY can think, plan, & come up with solutions!

 

I didn't read all the posts & I hope I am not repetitive. But this man's attitude made me furious. I am sick of socialist, collectivist mentalities!

[WTMCassandra]

Added: maybe you should ask him if he thought his wife could stay home ALL THE TIME with thier kids, teach them . . . and have them all speaking by the end of the day, week . . .

 

He is divorced and his wife has custody in another town. Pretty well speaks for itself as far as I'm concerned.

[WTMCassandra]

I would question the premise that he has an entitlement to act as an inquisitor toward you, and that you are obliged to come up with answers to satisfy him.

 

Since I started home schooling, I've been surprised by the number of people who have suddenly gone on the attack. I've been equally surprised by their identity. People whom I assumed would be supportive, or at least polite, have been downright nasty. I've recently decided that they're not entitled to grill me, and I don't owe them answers.

 

These people are horse's behinds.

 

You are right. I am asking to satisfy *myself.* This was one conversation where he cornered me and I got sucked in. After that I avoided him as best I could and didn't engage.

 

But I wasn't satisfied within myself with my answer. I wanted to work through my own issues so I could articulate what I believe. I knew it was hogwash but couldn't articulate to myself why it was.

 

And I also need to work more on not getting sucked in! :)

 

ETA: He only stayed at our church for a couple of months and then left. Frankly, I was glad to see him go.

[HollyinNNV]

For me, and this is just a personal thing, I find it incredibly important to stay away from all mention of myself and anecdotal evidence. Because for every story I have, my opponent has ten that refute my claim. So, I try hard to stick with the truth/falseness of the claim made. Otherwise, the best I can hope for is: well yeah, your family does great, but most homeschoolers......... If I stick with the claim, I can at least introduce doubt into my opponent's mind, "Hmmmm, I am really talking out of ignorance-I wonder if there is any research to back up my assertion?"

 

You are right. I am asking to satisfy *myself.* This was one conversation where he cornered me and I got sucked in. After that I avoided him as best I could and didn't engage.

 

But I wasn't satisfied within myself with my answer. I wanted to work through my own issues so I could articulate what I believe. I knew it was hogwash but couldn't articulate to myself why it was.

 

And I also need to work more on not getting sucked in! :)

 

ETA: He only stayed at our church for a couple of months and then left. Frankly, I was glad to see him go.

[WTMCassandra]

For me, and this is just a personal thing, I find it incredibly important to stay away from all mention of myself and anecdotal evidence. Because for every story I have, my opponent has ten that refute my claim. So, I try hard to stick with the truth/falseness of the claim made. Otherwise, the best I can hope for is: well yeah, your family does great, but most homeschoolers......... If I stick with the claim, I can at least introduce doubt into my opponent's mind, "Hmmmm, I am really talking out of ignorance-I wonder if there is any research to back up my assertion?"

 

This is a very wise approach, one that I need to internalize and use! I tend to knee-jerk to allow someone to question me and start explaining myself (which invites further attack).

 

But I also want to know inside myself the reason why homeschooling is better. It helps me have a more confident air, even if I don't share the reason with the boundary-pusher asking me.

[johnandtinagilbert]

My response had grown to, "I think a child can be successful in any environment so long as the parents are actively involved in their learning process. Home schooling isn't for everyone, but for our family it was the best decision we've ever made and God willing we'll be able to home school them until we put them in college. I have met my fair share of poor home schoolers and I've also met children who are cannot read well in 6th grade. I also remember some very mean, unhappy teachers who didn't teach me much when I attended public school. This works best for us, though and I love doing it." Huge smile on my face.

 

If there is rebuttal, just keep repeating, "This is what we deem best for our family." Once you've said the same thing a few times, they'll shut up and who cares what they think of you when they walk away! Just so long as they're not your dcs teacher!

[Mommy22alyns]

How long does it take to learn to work in a group? The assumption here is that you need practice in these kind of learning/working environments for many years on end. But that isn't true.

 

 

:iagree: Really - you need 12 years of schooling, 180 days a year, 8 hours a day to learn how to work in a group??? I don't think so.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

Lots of good advice here.

 

I might have just said that each situation and each set of students has their own challenges. Group work might be an immediate fit for some, but might put others in the situation of doing all the work, coasting on the work of others or being too shy to give input. Group work tends to magnify the traits that the students have already developed. So we do group activities, especially within scouts, but I always try to have a heavy dose of analysis at the end of what went well and what needs to be improved.

 

And one might just as easily argue that too much emphasis on group work fails to provide the incentive for personal motivation and persistance. But in the end, both critiques might be found to be straw man arguements against a system that rarely exists in reality. Classrooms aren't generally what you find shown on tv and homeschools typically bear no resemblence to the caricatures portrayed in editorials.

 

 

One more thing I'd toss out is to steer the conversation to areas of common ground. Many people are teachers because they love to share knowledge and discovery with others. They also often like the feeling of being the one to impart information.

 

So I ask, what have been the best books you've read with your class?

Are there any books for this age that you think I should be sure we don't miss?

We get to do a lot of field trips, are there any local places that you'd especially recommend?

Have you done any science experiments or projects that have really caught the imagination of your students?

I'd like to add subject x, can you recommend any resources?

 

In other words, I have the same interested discussions that I'd have with another homeschooler or that I'd have if I were a classroom teacher.

 

I totally agree with the idea that I don't casual aquaintances an explanation. But I also don't tend to shy away from discussions of homeschooling. Not that I think that I'll necessarily change someone's mind. But there are so many homeschoolers who can't have these conversations with people (from homeschoolers in Germany who can't be public about their choice to homeschoolers who can't discuss homeschooling without causing a family fight). I'm blessed with a lot of support around me from friends and family so I do tend to wade in there.

[Elizabeth Conley]

Since you're answering to satisfy yourself, not him, I'd have a look at the overall relative performance of homeschoolers.

 

As a population, there's no denying that home schoolers perform very well in all arenas of life. It doesn't make sense to rely on the anecdotal and personal to make a judgment for or against homeschooling in general. Only broad statistical studies make sense, if we're making sweeping statements about all or most homeschoolers.

 

I think most people undertake homeschooling with much trepidation, and continue to home school only if their first year is moderately successful. Sure, public schools are going to see more unsuccessfully home schooled kids than successfully home schooled kids. The biggest reason homeschoolers return their kids to public school is that homeschooling simply wasn't right for them. Naturally, those of us who home school are going to tend to know of more successful home schoolers than unsuccessful ones. The successful home schoolers are the ones who stay at it for decades, and so naturally they spend more time in our community.

[gardening momma]

"But being in school teaches children to work in groups, and that's so important. Group projects are what the business world is about these days, and school is the best place to learn those skills."

I went to a small, non-public school, and I don't recall working in groups at all. But I did a better job working in a group in college when we were assigned to do a group proposal in our professional writing class, and I and another person (and another person who occasionally showed up) carried most of the load of the project, while the other 2 people didn't do anything.

[gardening momma]

Some people eventually become managers so do we need to teach children how to be managers and some to be followers. That would of course be ridiculous.

I can't read the whole thread right now, so sorry if someone else has addressed this. I think we should teach our children to lead and to take direction from someone in charge. So in that sense, no, I don't think it's ridiculous. It just doesn't have to be done in a group project setting in school. It can be done in other ways, too.