Want to find a country that suits MY value system more so...

[Margaret in GA]

My husband oversees his investments and portfolio, manages his household and foundations. Just think Joseph from the Bible, for modern times.

 

Anyway, this man, who is a millionaire, would agree with many of you here, in terms of feeling his freedom infringed upon and more importantly, being punished for his success. So, he's currently moving most of his assets offshore and he's presently in New Zealand researching that country as a possible country for emmigration should things in this country continue down this high-regulation, less individual freedom path.

 

His family are multi-millionaires, but in many ways I don't envy their position. They pay over 60% of their income in taxes! He has been targeted for his conservative beliefs by government agencies on more than one occasion. He's been investigated for having firearms and hosting political fundraisers in his house. All of which would be considered harmless if done by the average citizen, but his exceptional wealth makes him a bigger target.

 

The saddest part of all this is that just 15 years ago, this man and his family were just like us...he started his business in his daughter's bedroom. He's lived the American dream and now, in many respects, he's being punished for it.

 

 

Good grief. Punished for being rich. We should all be so lucky. We have over 60% of our income taxed, too. While I'm not overly excited, I consider it my duty as a citizen to pay taxes. Do they waste it? You betcha. Our congress is full of do nothing politicians on the take. It's still better than any where else on earth.

 

This is a *great* country. Try living in a country with less rules and regulations... I have the feeling you'll be back. Corruption often goes hand in hand with less rules-- just look at what happened on Wall Street over the last year.

 

Margaret

[johnandtinagilbert]

I am happy to live in the U.S. and to pay my fair share of taxes. Our goverment is not perfect, but I thank God that we have the power of the vote.

On the flip side, if we did not pay taxes or have reasonable regulations then the following might happen:

1. No maintained roads/highways

2. No police forces to help uphold the law

3. No firemen to help put out fires

4. Businesses able to do what they want like pour chemicals/pollutants into our waterways, air and on the land.

5. No social safety network for the millions of americans who are less fortunate than us.

6. Health insurance companies being able to gouge us even more and turn down coverage for even more us.

7. No army to help protect us, etc.

 

Don't get me wrong, I do get frustrated with goverment waste, needless tax increases, people not pulling themselves up by their boot straps or taking advantage of the system. I also love capitalism, but I think that there needs to be reasonable regulations since downright greed often shows itself and as result bad business actions that are harmful/hurtful occur.

 

In terms of healthcare, you do not hear many americans complaining about their medicare coverage. I know that I would be thrilled to have the same offered to every american. I would rather our goverment making healthcare decisions than a private insurance company who is only motivated by the bottom line. At least with our goverment, we can vote them out of office.:)

 

This is just my two cents. I do have loved ones who definately agree with the OP and so I can relate.:)

 

I agree with the spirit of your post, but honestly, I recognize each of the items you listed that are gov't supported as constant problems. Not directing this in an ugly way at "you", your post just opened up my thoughts on the subject :)

 

My problem comes in knowing that these organizations are underfunded, and poorly run. I am active in local gov't and there has Never, in my 6 or so years of service, been a time when the city wasn't hurting over money for fire, police, or roads and I have yet to see our military families (including my retired father and step-mom) who are receiving on-time, excellent health care. I look to the failing postal system. I look at the failing education sysytem. I look at the Dept. of Energy. Everywhere I see the gov't taking our money to run or fund something, I see them fail. I'm tired of giving my money to the gov't so they can waste it.

As a Christian, I have an obligation (I believe) to my faith to serve the needy (poor, widowed, single families, etc.) and we do regularly, even daily, in seasons. I believe those responsibilities lie within Individaul Responsibilities and not for the gov't. The gov't has spent so long teaching Americans that it can handle it, be big brother, that many Americans don't even know how to help their neighbor.

Finally, when I see the division in D.C., the corruption....honestly, I have lost faith in the system. As a lover of history, I see us in the downward side of the Cycle of Civilizations. I love this country. I am thankful to live here over any other nation, but I don't see us heading to prosperity (and it doesn't really matter who the President is), but rather to higher taxes, higher crime, and a deeper separation of the people. I think the Melting Pot will separate like oil and water sooner than later and I believe a house divided, cannot stand.

Just my 2 cents (and probably a bit more)

[MomofSeven]

Good grief. Punished for being rich. We should all be so lucky. We have over 60% of our income taxed, too. While I'm not overly excited, I consider it my duty as a citizen to pay taxes. Do they waste it? You betcha. Our congress is full of do nothing politicians on the take. It's still better than any where else on earth.

 

This is a *great* country. Try living in a country with less rules and regulations... I have the feeling you'll be back. Corruption often goes hand in hand with less rules-- just look at what happened on Wall Street over the last year.

 

Margaret

 

 

If I see corruption, I want it stopped.

 

If I see wasteful spending, I want an end to it.

 

If I see spreading the wealth of a hardworking american in the name of social justice, I want it halted.

 

I don't believe we should accept overtaxation and overregulation simply because it's better than another country. This is America, for goodness sakes. We have the freedom to strive to have the most free society and the most honest government in the world. I refuse to accept the premise that just because we're better than the next country over, then that should be good enough.

[Jenny in Atl]

How are some being taxed at 60% when the highest US bracket is 35%. Are you adding taxes on investments? :confused:

[cillakat]

We are sweating buckets in the summer, and our electric bill is still $500.

 

holy cats. where do you live?

[Ohdanigirl]

How are some being taxed at 60% when the highest US bracket is 35%. Are you adding taxes on investments? :confused:

 

 

Maybe they live in a high taxing state as well.

[stripe]

There is no state that has a tax rate of more than 11%, as far as I know (generally it's below 8%). Some local areas assess taxes; I can't see any that have rates over 5%, and most are in the range of 1%.

 

I'm tired of giving my money to the gov't so they can waste it.

I'm saddened by all the private industries that pay the executives big bucks, and then pay the workers very little.

[Ohdanigirl]

There is no state that has a tax rate of more than 11%, as far as I know (generally it's below 8%). Some local areas assess taxes; I can't see any that have rates over 5%, and most are in the range of 1%.

 

 

Is there a place to see the state taxes compared? I hear people throw out numbers but I don't really know. Any chance they are including sales tax? :D Maybe co. tax. Not sure, but I would love to know where you are looking at the numbers it would be nice to actually know what I am taliking about, LOL.

 

Danielle

[lmrich]

You could live on a boat! Sail around the world, fish, just don't get sick! I have friends who are from Italy (super wealthy) and the believe that the US is the only place to live if you want freedom. I mean they have a home on Lake Como and they choose to live in busy, congested America for the freedoms that is offered here.

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

Posted by Mommyrooch

Wasteful spending is a HUGE problem. Perhaps all of us homeschooling moms should meet up on capital hill and give our leaders some lessons in " good old-fashioned math"

:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:

I definately agree with this.

Edited May 21, 2009 by priscilla
I could not correctly insert quote:)

[stripe]

Is there a place to see the state taxes compared? I hear people throw out numbers but I don't really know. Any chance they are including sales tax? :D Maybe co. tax. Not sure, but I would love to know where you are looking at the numbers it would be nice to actually know what I am taliking about, LOL.

 

Danielle

Individual Income Tax Rates-2008

 

Forbes: The 10 Highest State Income Tax Rates

 

The Tax Foundation - State Individual Income Tax Rates, 2000-2009

 

State tax roundup

[LibraryLover]

I'm soooooooooooo there! :D

 

Whaaaa? Haaunahh? You want whatever you want, but you don''t want to pay for it?

 

In what country is AC free? :chillpill:

 

Are you a troll? :lurk5:

[TracyR]

Wow. I think I need to move to Alaska, Oklahoma or Texas. Pennsylvania is so strict with homeschooling that the only good part is you can pick your own curriculum. That's about it. We have testing, evaluations, making portfolios and having to sign and send in paperwork and objects just to homeschool. I DON'T recommend PA to any homeschooler.

[Spy Car]

:Wasteful spending is a HUGE problem. Perhaps all of us homeschooling moms should meet up on capital hill and give our leaders some lessons in " good old-fashioned math" :D

 

I may need some "trillion" value math manipulatives :D

[Mrs Mungo]

I may need some "trillion" value math manipulatives :D

 

A trillion really is a huge number. The mind boggles.

 

If I had a trillion dollars under my mattress (so we aren't assuming interest or anything) and I spent a thousand dollars a day it would take me...what? Almost two and a half million years to spend it?

 

If I spent a million dollars a day it would take...2,740 years to spend it?

 

We could give everyone living in the US $3,300? eta: We could give everyone on the planet $147?

 

ed again to add: I majored in Literature, that's why there are question marks. :D

[Perry]

Dh (a physician) went on a medical mission to CR several years ago. He saw some horrible things, extremely ill children with preventable, easily treatable conditions that had no access to medical care. I'll ask him for details when he gets home- but I know these people were not receiving good health care.

 

 

I asked dh about his impression of health care in Costa Rica. He says in theory, everyone is covered for everything, including medications, but in reality it doesn't quite work out that way. San Jose apparently has an outstanding hospital with many specialists, including a world renowned plastic surgery department.

 

The smaller towns and rural areas all have clinics staffed by traveling physicians that are supposed to come at certain times, such as once a week. But they often show up at the wrong time, or don't show up at all. There are no appointments, so patients just show up and wait, sometimes waiting all day to see the doctor, who may or may not show up.

 

He thought the quality of the care was very good, but access was very unreliable in the area he visited.

[Perry]

A trillion really is a huge number. The mind boggles.

 

If I had a trillion dollars under my mattress (so we aren't assuming interest or anything) and I spent a thousand dollars a day it would take me...what? Almost two and a half million years to spend it?

 

If I spent a million dollars a day it would take...2,740 years to spend it?

 

We could give everyone living in the US $3,300? eta: We could give everyone on the planet $147?

 

ed again to add: I majored in Literature, that's why there are question marks. :D

 

Have you seen this?

 

What does one trillion dollars look like? Let's use images to visualize.

 

For the sake of visual comparison, here's what a million dollars in stacked $100 dollar bills (or, Federal Reserve Notes) looks like:

 

Here's one billion dollars in stacked C-notes:

 

One trillion dollars (in double stacked pallets of $100 bills) looks something like this:

If you look directly above the arrow I've placed in that graphic, you'll see the same little guy standing right next to the double stacked pallets of money.

 

 

[BalanceSeeker]

Whaaaa? Haaunahh? You want whatever you want, but you don''t want to pay for it?

 

In what country is AC free? :chillpill:

 

Are you a troll? :lurk5:

 

What in the world are you talking about?

 

A troll, whatever.

 

Where did I ask for free AC? Find that post and quote it, please.

 

Where did I say I didn't want to pay any taxes? Find that post and quote it, please.

 

Gotta love people who generalize and assume. Brilliant.

 

ETA: And no, I don't "want" all the great things (i.e. PORK) government has to offer (beside law enforcement, schools, libraries, etc). The citizens of this country have always managed the rest better. Big brother has run nearly every social agenda they've ever touched into the ground. Why would anyone want to give them more money to make things worse. If citizens of this country seriously don't wake up and get their heads out of the sand, the country we have loved so much will be a memory.

Edited May 21, 2009 by BalanceSeeker

[Guest]

I know when I lived there (just for a summer, with my In-laws who lived there for 30 years) there was some sort of "schedule" where you paid more for electricity at certain times of day than at others. So MIL always tried to run the dishwasher and to do laundry late at night or early in the morning. But I think that was the utility company - not the government. Have they actually passed laws penalizing electricity use?

 

It was so entirely miserable to live there. I don't think that at the times there were legal restrictions that made it that way - it was just too expensive to cool a house to a point that most people would find comfortable. My in-laws were not poor, and they kept their house so warm I just suffocated inside or out the entire time!

 

It is the utility company in control right now. They offer various plans to residents. For example, we had 3 choices:

 

We could choose to have a higher rate from 7am-7pm. (I think those are the hours) Many frugal people choose this option and choose to use their electricity at night or very early, like your MIL. Most often the people on this plan are the ones that keep their houses pretty warm during the day. We moved from CA and one of our stipulations on moving here was that we would not be stingy with our a/c. I just can't handle that!

 

We are on the 12pm-7pm program because I prefer to do laundry in the morning.

 

Our other option is, as the OP mentioned, the equalizer plan. We just got a letter in the mail yesterday that said to do that would be $135/mo. They take your annual electricity cost from the previous year and divide it throughout the year. (We're getting ready to move so we aren't doing that one right now.)

 

We have sun screens on our windows and a gas dryer and the highest our summer bill has been is $300. We have a 1700 sq.ft./1 story home. We set our a/c at 76-80 right now. I remember a thread on here last summer about electric bills and I remember thinking how LOW ours was compared to some of you.

 

While I understand where the OP is coming from, we are SO much happier here than in Cali. Are you sure the equalizer plan wouldn't work better for you? If you join now, your bill should go down and then you would also have the same payment each month instead of such a fluctuating bill. :grouphug:

[Dirtroad]

Copay on insurance keeps you from running to the doctor for every skint knee. If you decide to not pay the $15 or $50 copay, that is your decision.... NOT the goverments or insurance companies.

 

If you are sick in this country (illegal or legal), you can get healthcare. This is one reason that our costs for hospital stays & doctor visits are so high. You can even pay $5 a month to cover your expenses... or just skip altogether. They may sue.... but if you truly have NOTHING, they can't take it away.

 

Now, through a goverment beauracracy into the already high costs of hospitals and doctors due to NONPAYMENT, etc.... FRIGHTENING.

 

Want the government to run your healthcare, car choices, and utilities.... well just look at how great they run the postal service and medicare/medicaid. They are such glowing examples of HOW GREAT a job they can do.

 

Oh, and 85 and need a kidney transplant.... hmmm, they may have to get back to you in a few years on that! Next.... see how fast we move you through.

 

As for our need for more environmental regulation - get real. If I want to live like Laura Ingalls... I will do it. Obviously, we have learned better. Want to live without all these luxuries... or tax them until people BEHAVE by your standard... .then move to Haiti. They are free from those burdens of everyone using running water, flushing toilets, air conditioners and gas guzzling vehicles...... Wow! Sounds like paradise... oh and Look at all those beautiful trees and well nourished business owners living the life! :confused:

 

Oh and as for all those government services someone mentioned.... why is it that with money tight, those are the first things they threaten to cut... not their 19 staffers, fancy dinners, SUVs, jet trips to Taiwan or Korea, social programs, staff & offices for everything.... it is the ESSENTIALS of law enforcement & security that get the ax. Because we will concede in an effort to keep these essential institutions going.

 

We haven't had LEADERS in years. It is shameful. They all live like NOBLES and MONARCHS. Very sad.

[Mrs Mungo]

As for our need for more environmental regulation - get real. If I want to live like Laura Ingalls... I will do it. Obviously, we have learned better. Want to live without all these luxuries... or tax them until people BEHAVE by your standard... .then move to Haiti. They are free from those burdens of everyone using running water, flushing toilets, air conditioners and gas guzzling vehicles...... Wow! Sounds like paradise... oh and Look at all those beautiful trees and well nourished business owners living the life! :confused:

 

Removing ozone damaging chemicals from hairspray didn't even force me to give up hairspray, much less live like Laura Ingalls, lol. I'm NO advocate of living off the land and canning my own vegetables, I *assure* you. However, there are loads of newer, more environmentally safe technologies that can be used in place of older technologies. Nobody suffers in that scenario.

 

You are right that the very upper class lives like a bunch of nobles or monarchy at the expense of everyone else. And if the head of a company wrings his hands and says "oh dear, environmentally friendly products just cost too much or will force us to live like Laura Ingalls" people believe him and he laughs and keeps his money flowing in.

[Nan in Mass]

One was from the US, one from Ireland, and one from Iran. They each were convinced (now that they lived in the US) that their own country had more freedom. The man from Iran was a restaurant owner. He didn't like the US food regulations. (He has a point there GRIN, but from the point of view of a restaurant goer, I think I could argue that I have freedom from worry here.) The man from Ireland liked the socialist aspects of his country (freedom from worry) and the freedom from family interference. The man from the US had free speech and other traditional US freedoms in mind. It was a pretty interesting conversation.

-Nan

[Mrs Mungo]

The man from Iran was a restaurant owner. He didn't like the US food regulations.

 

*shudders*

 

*Remembers food in Egypt*

 

*shudders again*

[Melissa in Australia]

 

Socialized medicine. Phooey. Long wait times to be treated, higher rates of death, that's all I have to say about that. I've done the research. This, coming from someone who pays $1000/month for premiums. You'd think I'd welcome it.

 

 

I have heard alot on this sight about "socialized "medicine. and I really think that Americans have been feed a lot of propaganda.

I have NEVER had any problem with the medical system in Australia. I can get to see a doctor very easily, specialists are accessible to all, and if you need to see a specialist quickly you get put in very quickly.

[BalanceSeeker]

I have heard alot on this sight about "socialized "medicine. and I really think that Americans have been feed a lot of propaganda.

I have NEVER had any problem with the medical system in Australia. I can get to see a doctor very easily, specialists are accessible to all, and if you need to see a specialist quickly you get put in very quickly.

 

I'm glad, truly. I hope our govt can do better with it then they have [insert any social program here]. We don't have enough money to support everyone who wants to live here and not contribute AND provide medical care to citizens and non-citizens alike. It's mathematically impossible. As for our traditional system, I do believe there needs to be reform of some sort. No doubt.

 

I don't believe we've been fed propaganda about the realities of this for US citizens given the fact that we are a very unique country. It's very easy to benefit from the programs set in place yet personally contribute nothing. But, I do believe it when I hear people from other countries say they have had great experiences with socialized med. and for that I'm glad. My question always come back to: What social program has the US taken over that they didn't royally mess up? Social Security? How's medicare doing? Education system? Welfare? Where's the personal incentive to get oneself out of the welfare cycle? And when are the people going to say enough is enough?

 

I know people disagree with me. That's fine. This is one area I happen to be very convicted of and I'm extremely saddened at the way people go about their lives trusting big brother to have their backs. One day, there will be a big awakening.

[Audrey]

I have heard alot on this sight about "socialized "medicine. and I really think that Americans have been feed a lot of propaganda.

I have NEVER had any problem with the medical system in Australia. I can get to see a doctor very easily, specialists are accessible to all, and if you need to see a specialist quickly you get put in very quickly.

 

That's been my experience here in Canada, too.

[LibraryLover]

What in the world are you talking about?

 

A troll, whatever.

 

Where did I ask for free AC? Find that post and quote it, please.

 

Where did I say I didn't want to pay any taxes? Find that post and quote it, please.

 

Gotta love people who generalize and assume. Brilliant.

 

ETA: And no, I don't "want" all the great things (i.e. PORK) government has to offer (beside law enforcement, schools, libraries, etc). The citizens of this country have always managed the rest better. Big brother has run nearly every social agenda they've ever touched into the ground. Why would anyone want to give them more money to make things worse. If citizens of this country seriously don't wake up and get their heads out of the sand, the country we have loved so much will be a memory.

 

 

So you're missing GWB?

[Rosie_0801]

My question always come back to: What social program has the US taken over that they didn't royally mess up? Social Security? How's medicare doing? Education system?

 

Y'know, while I was suffering a bout of insomnia last night, I was wondering why the US has a public school system at all. I guess a board of homeschoolers isn't really representative of the general American population, but you guys give the impression that it'd be better to keep your tax dollars and spend on private education (home, cottage schools or whatever) instead.

 

Please, for the sake of my sanity, don't leave any loose ideas for my brain to take up at 2am. Try and get it all summarised nicely for me within the next 4 hours, ok? ;)

 

Rosie

[Spy Car]

I guess a board of homeschoolers isn't really representative of the general American population....

 

You figured that out, did ya? ;)

[creekland]

I guess a board of homeschoolers isn't really representative of the general American population, but you guys give the impression that it'd be better to keep your tax dollars and spend on private education (home, cottage schools or whatever) instead.

Rosie

 

Actually, with the exception of the 'education' aspect of it all, I'm finding this board to be very much a cross-representation of the US - far more so than a horse forum or travel forum that I belong to. You get many varied opinions on here pretty much from one extreme to the other - then figure that those that aren't chiming in are in the middle.

 

With regards to education, people on here seem far more concerned than the majority that send their kids to ps (I teach there). Mind you, that's the majority... there are some parents that send their kids to ps that do care, but maybe a quarter or so if we're talking percentages.

 

And... I read an opinion piece in our newspaper roughly a couple of months ago that showed (via math) that it WOULD be more economical to send all kids to private schools or encourage homeschooling... the problem being that we don't have enough private schools set up to handle the population... It was an interesting opinion - not related to religion or anything else - just the nuts and bolts of the math/cost.

[Heather in Neverland]

Y'know, while I was suffering a bout of insomnia last night, I was wondering why the US has a public school system at all. I guess a board of homeschoolers isn't really representative of the general American population, but you guys give the impression that it'd be better to keep your tax dollars and spend on private education (home, cottage schools or whatever) instead.

 

 

I completely agree with this. And I work in public education even though I am disgusted by it. How's that for the great paradox of my life?

[I talk to the trees]

I'm glad, truly. I hope our govt can do better with it then they have [insert any social program here]. We don't have enough money to support everyone who wants to live here and not contribute AND provide medical care to citizens and non-citizens alike. It's mathematically impossible. As for our traditional system, I do believe there needs to be reform of some sort. No doubt.

 

I don't believe we've been fed propaganda about the realities of this for US citizens given the fact that we are a very unique country. It's very easy to benefit from the programs set in place yet personally contribute nothing. But, I do believe it when I hear people from other countries say they have had great experiences with socialized med. and for that I'm glad. My question always come back to: What social program has the US taken over that they didn't royally mess up? Social Security? How's medicare doing? Education system? Welfare? Where's the personal incentive to get oneself out of the welfare cycle? And when are the people going to say enough is enough?

 

I know people disagree with me. That's fine. This is one area I happen to be very convicted of and I'm extremely saddened at the way people go about their lives trusting big brother to have their backs. One day, there will be a big awakening.

:iagree:I agree with every word! What's that Franklin quote? Those who would give up liberty for temporary safety deserve neither. (Paraphrased, but that's the general idea.)

 

The way things are looking, I don't think you're going to find your ideal country this side of eternity. But if you do..... please let me know! I'd love to be your neighbor!

 

-Robin

[Nan in Mass]

Wow! Thanks for posting this.

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

Quote by Dirtroad If you are sick in this country (illegal or legal), you can get healthcare. This is one reason that our costs for hospital stays & doctor visits are so high. You can even pay $5 a month to cover your expenses... or just skip altogether. They may sue.... but if you truly have NOTHING, they can't take it away.

 

 

It is true that you can receive emergency care in an emergency rooms. However, if you are unlucky enough to own a house and be in the the position of not having health insurance, you could lose your home if a catastrophic illness requires hospitalization. This could even happen with health insurance since many of them have lifetime caps. There are many with health insurance in our country who end up bankrupt due to illness. I worked in critical care as an RN for many years and witnessed many patients suffering catastrophic illnesses who racked up astronomical bills.

Also, you cannot get chemotherapy, expensive daily medications, radiation, etc. in emergency rooms. So I guess that if you have cancer or need expensive pills then you are out of luck. I know that there are some programs out there, but if you are middle class, then you may be disqualified.

 

Also, in terms of medical care and funding a public health care plan, we are already paying for health care. Individuals, small businesses, big businesses, local and state goverments are already paying onerous premiums for health insurance already and suffering as a result. Then, on top of that, they face up to 20-50% increases in premiums every year. Health care facilities are also paying for the health care burden by providing free care at a loss. I have read of emergency rooms closing as a result of these losses.

 

In terms of social security and medicare, I think they are a success. There are millions of hard-working amercians who depend on them and who would be in trouble without them. The biggest problem that social security and medicare face is the goverment borrowing money from these programs to pay for other things. Also, from what I understand medicare is more efficient than the private medicare options since the goverment must subsidize these private options. I think this is due to the fact that there is not a layer of administration making enormous sums of money in the goverment as in the private insurance companies. I also, think that medicare does not deprive people of needed procedures now, so I think it is a stretch to say that a public health plan will deprive people of necessary medical care.

 

In terms of slackers, I get frustrated as well, but I would like to believe that this not the majority of people. I think that there are many hard-working, frugal people who are struggling to get by. Also, from what I recall (I could be wrong), welfare was reformed in the 1990's to encourage work and had life-time caps placed on them. Are there abusers of the system? Yes, but I think they are a minority. What about the CEO's, CFO's, etc. making millions of dollars at the expense of workers, stock holders, and the public? I think that is abuse:) I find it hard to believe that these executives are superstars worth that much money. I think the performance of many big businesses like the banks and car makers can testify to that. I think that mediocrity, politics, and shenanigans are many times the norm in business and in goverment:)

 

In terms of education, I agree that the system needs fixing. I believe in educational choice and vouchers as way to reform the system. I think that parents should be able to select the public school of their choice not jus the one in their district. I think the funding for schools needs to be reformed. In PA, local property taxes pay for schools and believe me the local school districts feel free to raise taxes to the maximum allowed without hesistating:glare: At the same time, they feel free to build unnecessary schools , stadiums, etc.:glare: They also feel free to make unnecessary jobs for friends. I wish the funding was through state taxes in PA.

 

I think I better end my 2 cents there.:tongue_smilie: I think the discussion has been great.:)

Edited May 21, 2009 by priscilla
I still cannot work quote function:)

[Demal]

I guess a board of homeschoolers isn't really representative of the general American population . . . .

Rosie

 

:iagree:

 

This board is not at all representative of the general American population.

 

CNN/Opinion Research Corporation survey conducted May 14-17, 2009:

63% of people questioned say they think policies being proposed by the President would push the nation in the right direction.

 

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2009/05/20/cnn-poll-obama-moving-us-in-right-direction/

 

Pew Forum religious affiliations in the US: 26.3% Evangelical Protestant

 

http://religions.pewforum.org/affiliations

[JumpedIntoTheDeepEndFirst]

I may need some "trillion" value math manipulatives :D

 

 

Just build furniture out of your Base Ten Blocks, all will be well.;)

[johnandtinagilbert]

In terms of slackers, I get frustrated as well, but I would like to believe that this not the majority of people. I think that there are many hard-working, frugal people who are struggling to get by. Also, from what I recall (I could be wrong), welfare was reformed in the 1990's to encourage work and had life-time caps placed on them. Are there abusers of the system? Yes, but I think they are a minority. :)

 

I think you would be Sick to know how abused the system is. Sick. Sick. Sick. I could never use the word minority. Where we live (an impoverished community), I see it All The Time. I have come to the conclusion over the years that our nation has taken on so many federal responsibilities, to a point of an over flowing plate, and they simply cannot handle the oversight necessary to properly run the programs they offer. Is there a need for the programs? Certainly. At this point, however, there absolutely is a welfare community, generation after generation, on federal aids, with No intention to make the change to self-sufficiency. A fatherless community will rely on the gov't to fill the role of Provider.

 

Many of us on this board live fortunate lives and never visit the poorest communities. I offered over the last few years to drive some moms from my homeschool co-op through a neighborhood we minister in. They had NO IDEA the lifestyles that were only a few miles from their very fancy neighborhoods. No clue. They'd never spoken to a person whose drug dealing boyfriend fathered numerous children by numerous women. All the women on state/federal aid, collecting housing, food stamps, AFDC, paying for their education that they continuously drop out of b/c of abc xyz (the millions of excuses they offer). Some people are perfectly happy letting the gov't take care of them and their children. They have no real reason to live otherwise, it is all they've ever known. We have seen it takes years of individualized attention and encouragement to teach people they can Stop the Cycle. We have been blessed to spend years helping singular families. This is something the gov't simply cannot do. As a result, they are as much a part of the problem.

 

I'm sad to say, most people in the system for a little while, know how to work it....they play the system like Mozart composes! Only the result is not so beautiful.

 

I wish I could offer positive interjection to this area, but I have seen A Lot that tells me the minority are those using the system to help in hard times, the majority are those manipulating the system for generations.

 

I also want to add, yes there was reform, but there are ways to work around that too. For example, a woman qualifies for childcare so she can get a job. She gets one, but in order to keep her Free childcare (cuz she doesn't want to pay for it and/or it will use up most of her paycheck), she also enrolls in school. She doesn't really want to go to school, so she just attends the first few classes so she qualifies for childcare. She goes to her case worker and gives some story about how her job won't work with her hours, so she has to go to school Or work for this semester (this is a lie, her job will work with her). The case worker approves the childcare for another 6 months so she can register for school the next sememster (which, by the way is being paid for entirely). The second semester comes around. Since she really only wants the free childcare, she again starts and stops her classes. This time, she says she and her "baby daddy" are trying to get back together and need counseling. They receive free counseling and as a result, the Counselor gives a voucher for free childcare (b/c she believes the mom working will help their family). All the while, she is receiving Section 8 housing (paying $24/month for rent on a 3/1 house) b/c according to her state filing, the baby daddy doesn't live with them. He does. So now, her rent, utilities, food, and childcare are state funded, while her baby daddy is working, but also is a pot head. They all wear baby phat, nike, and have more jewelry than they can wear in one outing.

She plays the system like this, going round and round, until her kids all qualify for free Pre-K. She enrolls her kids there and gets scholarships for both before and after care. She now works 20 weeks at a local convenient store, the boyfriend, still living with her (and perhaps another baby mama or two) is mooching off all these woman, who are all using the system in this way.

If you think this is a rare example. You are Sadly, truly sadly, mistaken. I could drive you through a few neighborhoods in this area alone where this is the Norm. The welfare state is Alive and Well.

 

Finally, I'm sure people will think, you have an obligation to call these people in. We have. It doesn't work. People will change addresses enough, DCFS is so understaffed, a good story and a clean house will get these woman checked out and clear to keep abusing the system.

 

Do some people make it out? Sure. They, however, are the minority.

 

Sorry for being so long winded. I just find that many people are truly unaware of the very real Welfare State that exists. We'd rather assume it's only a few people involved and that most of them are working hard to get off state aid. That is simply not my experience in Chicago, Atlanta, or the Tampa area.

[BalanceSeeker]

double post.

Edited May 21, 2009 by BalanceSeeker

[BalanceSeeker]

Too many posts to quote, and we need to start our school day, but:

 

Tina - your description is what I come across when I did community health nursing. What you described was not at all surprising for me to see - after seeing so many cases like this. The minority were in the hard-worker/temporary-welfare-to-get-me-by category. The deal is simply too good to want to leave.

 

As for medicare - it's working now, but with budget cutbacks (I work in a hospital) they aren't paying, aren't paying, aren't paying. It's All We Hear. The nurses are being reprimanded for not documenting things a certain way because then medicare "won't pay." It's manipulation, and they should pay, but they're running out of $$ so they find every excuse in the book not to. Non-profit hospitals are suffering because of medicare.

 

As for SS - it's great - for now. Where will all the money I've paid into it be when I'm 65?

 

As for CNN, their views are so obviously left that you aren't going to hear anything remotely questioning what's going on. It's business as usual. Tune in to Fox News and you'll get another viewpoint. I watch both, just to hear both sides and I form my impressions from there. ;)

[ravengal]

Tina,

Florida must have very generous welfare policies. In Ohio, welfare benefits just aren't generous enough to provide anything more than a low-level existence. As a matter of fact, very few Ohioans live entirely on welfare anymore. They work, primarily, in retail stores like WM, at day care centers, and in nursing homes. Sure, their housing and food may be subsidized, but their long-term prospects for a better life aren't enviable. Most work too many hours to make returning to college possible.

 

The welfare cheats in our society aren't the real problem, anyway. You could get rid of welfare entirely, and our government would still find a way to waste the newly-freed monies.

[Demal]

As for CNN, their views are so obviously left that you aren't going to hear anything remotely questioning what's going on. It's business as usual. Tune in to Fox News and you'll get another viewpoint. I watch both, just to hear both sides and I form my impressions from there. ;)

 

OK, then. Fox News poll from April, 2009:

 

"Nearly twice as many Americans think the actions Obama has taken since becoming president will help rather than hurt the nation's economy (52 percent to 28 percent)."

 

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/first100days/2009/04/24/fox-news-poll-obamas-days/

 

 

The only point that I'm making is that this message board is not representative of the American public in general. It is representative, perhaps, of the Republican Party.

[Crissy]

OK, then. Fox News poll from April, 2009:

 

"Nearly twice as many Americans think the actions Obama has taken since becoming president will help rather than hurt the nation's economy (52 percent to 28 percent)."

 

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/first100days/2009/04/24/fox-news-poll-obamas-days/

 

 

The only point that I'm making is that this message board is not representative of the American public in general. It is representative, perhaps, of the Republican Party.

 

Indeed, if a poll take here is an accurate indicator.

[Mrs Mungo]

OK, then. Fox News poll from April, 2009:

 

"Nearly twice as many Americans think the actions Obama has taken since becoming president will help rather than hurt the nation's economy (52 percent to 28 percent)."

 

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/first100days/2009/04/24/fox-news-poll-obamas-days/

 

 

The only point that I'm making is that this message board is not representative of the American public in general. It is representative, perhaps, of the Republican Party.

 

I agree with this. I'm a moderate Democrat but I come across as far-left on this board. It actually cracks me up because as a Christian, homeschooling military wife I am considered somewhat Conservative and right-leaning on the other board I'm on.

[Jennifer in NH]

The only point that I'm making is that this message board is not representative of the American public in general. It is representative, perhaps, of the Republican Party.

 

 

I think quite a few on this board would object to that. I've been in plenty of heated "discussions" with quite a few people of a more liberal persuassion. ;):D

If most of them are staying clear of this thread, well, good for them for not gloating on what in some ways seems to be a gripe fest of what is wrong with this country under democrats.

 

I didn't expect Liberals to leave this country during a republican administration and i certainly don't expect conservatives to leave. Stay and work to get the Democrats out of power in 2010 and 2012...Why leave at the first sign of trouble...run for office yourself or convince DH to....

 

and that is my 2 cents.

I am going to post and run because I have more packing to do for our annual 3 month vacation. I'll see you all in September as the song goes.:auto:

[emeraldjoy]

I agree with this; nicely worded.

 

Each state does have its own regulations. In Montana, college doesn't count as a qualifying factor for childcare, foodstamp, or cash assistance.

 

I suppose what makes me weary of the constant welfare complaining is that, even considering the users and abusers of the "system", all the helping programs totaled only account for about 8% of our tax money. Much, much more of our tax money is wasted on more questionable things, in my opinion. The scapegoat that welfare has consistantly been over time is something that has always fascinated me.

e

Tina,

Florida must have very generous welfare policies. In Ohio, welfare benefits just aren't generous enough to provide anything more than a low-level existence. As a matter of fact, very few Ohioans live entirely on welfare anymore. They work, primarily, in retail stores like WM, at day care centers, and in nursing homes. Sure, their housing and food may be subsidized, but their long-term prospects for a better life aren't enviable. Most work too many hours to make returning to college possible.

 

The welfare cheats in our society aren't the real problem, anyway. You could get rid of welfare entirely, and our government would still find a way to waste the newly-freed monies.

[Dirtroad]

Priscilla, I am sad to say that I know MANY people with homes who can afford insurance but they LIVE IN THE MOMENT and don't want to pay for insurance. I should not have to support them by sharing the load. I have family in this case. If they have a tree fall on them with no insurance, tough... pay the bill or get a smaller home. It is IRRESPONSIBLE & we support it.

 

I have a friend who can't pay her medical bills but buys scrapbook supplies & gets her hair colored regularly. She couldn't even pay her gas bill & asked churches to do so... WHAT??? She is a sweet gal, but I have NO sympathy for her. It is IRRESPONSIBLITY. Most people who can't find the money, get the govt support already. Many others (from personal experience) don't want to & don't even try. Got to have cigarettes, beer, races & ball games, and McDonalds. (NOT ALL fit here but too many to count).

 

Yes, wE are paying for the abuses in medical care & emergency room abuse. HOwever, you open the can of worms for everyone to get unlimited care with NO accountability & No responsiblity & that will magnify beyond our imaginations.

 

As for medicaid/medicare and other similar programs... they don't do what the politicians promise & dangle like the golden carrot. They are a bare minimum. Many seniors have to buy MORE INSURANCE to supplement the poor quality care. Many vets choose private care over the gov't provided care. Many doctors are beginning to refuse them b/c they can't cover their COST OF BUSINESS. Also, the budgets are broke & gov't can't keep up with the cost. It is a broken system & we are asking the gov't to give us more?

 

Helping your fellow man should be voluntary (and expected) of our neighbors... it should not be MANDATED by a goverment that has no authority by its Constitution to be meddling. :rant:

 

I have to wonder... When did we become a country that turns to government to solve everything? Our first settlers were trying to escape such tyranny... government control & forced "ways of life". They wanted liberty & freedoms to make CHOICES.

 

WE have gone from a country of personal choice & consequences to a NANNY state. It is heartbreaking.

[Dirtroad]

 

The only point that I'm making is that this message board is not representative of the American public in general. It is representative, perhaps, of the Republican Party.

 

I promise you, I am very conservative regarding constitutional interpretation and personal responsiblity.... and I often feel very out-numbered and alone here.

 

I promise... you get all flavors here and many are not Republican.;)

[Melinda in VT]

Our first settlers were trying to escape such tyranny... government control & forced "ways of life". They wanted liberty & freedoms to make CHOICES.

 

Not really. Jamestown was about making money, for the most part. And the pilgrims? They didn't so much want freedom from government control as they wanted to be the ones in charge. They weren't so keen on choices if you were Quaker, for example. Or Roger Williams.

[Mrs Mungo]

I promise you, I am very conservative regarding constitutional interpretation and personal responsiblity.... and I often feel very out-numbered and alone here.

 

HOW conservative are with regard to constitutional interpretation? Do you believe the Constitution is a living document or should it have remained unchanged since it was written?

 

Our first settlers were trying to escape such tyranny... government control & forced "ways of life". They wanted liberty & freedoms to make CHOICES.

 

Not really. Jamestown was about making money, for the most part. And the pilgrims? They didn't so much want freedom from government control as they wanted to be the ones in charge. They weren't so keen on choices if you were Quaker, for example. Or Roger Williams.

 

Yep, early Americans had to pay a fine if they didn't go to church. They could even be thrown in jail for it.

[Audrey]

OK, then. Fox News poll from April, 2009:

 

"Nearly twice as many Americans think the actions Obama has taken since becoming president will help rather than hurt the nation's economy (52 percent to 28 percent)."

 

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/first100days/2009/04/24/fox-news-poll-obamas-days/

 

 

The only point that I'm making is that this message board is not representative of the American public in general. It is representative, perhaps, of the Republican Party.

 

That's the most hopeful thing I've heard in a long while. I don't bother with american news anymore and sometimes this board is one of my few exposures to current american thought. Good to be reminded it's a rather minority representation. :D