Want to find a country that suits MY value system more so...

[tricia]

I like the deserted island idea myself. :001_smile:

[Dirtroad]

You mentioned the earliest settlers, I was speaking of the earliest settlers. Perhaps you didn't notice I said before that I was Native American? Don't talk to me about Georgia.

No clue of your heritage & I have not revealed mine. I only mentioned the colonialization of Georgia... not references to Indians. I was refering to the colonization that influenced the government structure of today. Not the original migration patterns from Asia via Bering Straight or Viking paths, etc.

 

Then you don't believe in the Bill of Rights (the first 10 amendments of the Constitution)? We should still have slavery? Blacks should still count as 3/5 of a person when we are counting population for representation? Women should not have the vote? Those are changes that came about under a LIBERAL banner. If you want to slap that label on me (even though it isn't at all appropriate for my political beliefs), I'll be glad to claim it.

 

They knew the slavery issue was wrong. It was evident with "all men are created equal".... it was there to remind the weak & greedy they they were wrong. It was in bold print to remind them! But so many were politically wimpy & wouldn't face the needs for it's abolition when the country was founded.

 

As for Bill of Rights.... the dust had never settled over the Constitution. Patrick Henry and others were stirring a BIG STINK over the lack of limitations in the Constitution. They knew you couldn't trust the "goodness of man OR government" to prevail & the people needed PROTECTION from this government (as they would any gov't). Not all states had signed the deal. Madison tried to find the compromise & thus the Bill of Rights. It brought the final States on board.

 

I made no decision of your political persuasions. You ASKED ME if I believed in a living document. Most conservatives (politically speaking) today say no... it is more of those on the liberal side the discuss these matters with such vocabulary. I have NO CLUE what group you are the most comfortable with. IT was a general reference & not a personal one.

 

As for amendments they are part of the document... not interpretations or current trends or moral inklings based on polls or policital manipulations. They are so difficult to obtain that the battle is well fought & the adjustments made. They aren't interpretations made by political appointees or politicians seeking an advantage on some issue. They can't bend and mold it to their whims.... which can be incredibly dangerous.

 

I believe the Constitution does cover todays issue... they are ALL rooted in the sinful, selfish nature of human beings, the desire for more power over the other person, and the desire of the government to own it all or atleast CONTROL it all. Most of the amendments were even obvious... but due ot "lawyer speak", they are added to clarify it since so many struggled with specific issues.

To me, "all men created equal" meant ALL MEN. Hope that makes sense. Oh and men means humans... not males.

 

Mrs. Mungo... nothing in my comments were personal.

[Dirtroad]

The discussion started due to seeking a country that suits the OPs value system.... we had had so many views on conservative/liberal.... government/individual.... on & on. Even statistics from WHO and how long we may live...

 

I have to wonder (if we are pretty much all homeschoolers on this board), why would you TRUST the government with your health care, good will, and best interest... when we don't even trust them to properly educate our children?

 

This is not a mean spirited comment. It just got me thinking. I homeschool B/c I feel the school systems have failed miserably (and for many other reasons as I am sure you all do). Why would I trust the same leadership who can't teach my child to READ A BOOK to provide me with the ideal doctor, the best car for my family, or the best art for my enjoyment? :confused:

 

But perhaps this is another thread... sorry if way off course.

[mommyrooch]

The discussion started due to seeking a country that suits the OPs value system.... we had had so many views on conservative/liberal.... government/individual.... on & on. Even statistics from WHO and how long we may live...

 

I have to wonder (if we are pretty much all homeschoolers on this board), why would you TRUST the government with your health care, good will, and best interest... when we don't even trust them to properly educate our children?

 

Heck yeah I would TRUST our government. At least considering the alternative. Consider it picking the worst of the two evils. Did you read my post about what has happened to my family and others like mine under our current system. I would trust our government to oversee this WAAAYYY more than I TRUST private, big business, made for profit insurance companies! The controllers of our current healthcare system have done so amazingly well for my family and millions of others so far. :ack2:

 

Have you or your spouse or one of your chilren ever been diagnosed with a catastrophic illness that required long term care? It is very hard for anyone to really have a clear understanding of just how destructive our current system is unless they have been kicked in the teeth by it. If they haven't had a spouse or child diagnosed with a serious disease like cancer or something comperable then I don't blame them for having views just like yours. I never really understood either until it happend to us. It's like having a nagging itch compared to the loss of all four limbs. Before my son's diagnosis I thought much like you. However, after his diagnosis, well..., let's just say that our limbs got cut off. Now it's REALLY easy to see how devastating our current systems is. We live in it everyday. I learned that people can't really understand something that they have never experienced. And I would never wish that kind of education on my worst enemy.

 

As for the government overseeing education vs. healthcare, the two examples aren't even comparable. It's like comparing apples and oranges.

 

First of all, I lay most of the blame on the individual states for the condition of our public schools. While the government has their hand in it they are not the driving force behind it. That is why statistics vary so widely from state to state. If it was just one large system heaped together and ran solely by the government then the states school systems would be more equally matched. As it is, they vary greatly. Things from funding, student to teacher ratio etc. etc. change the numbers drastically. In fact, there ARE several states that I wouldn't mind my kids attending in. My state just stinks to high heaven so I opt to homeschool.

 

That brings me to my second point as to why these two examples aren't even comparable. I DO have another choice when it comes to the education of my children. I CAN homeschool if I don't like the current system. I DO NOT have another choice under our current healthcare system. I am forced, and other families like mine, to be subjected to the nightmares that our current system evoke. That's the point. If there were some other option that protected families like mine (like the protection we have with our kids education by having the ability to homeschool) then I would be able to breath a little easier. If I had access to a plan that was there if my son were to ever relapse and my husband lost his job then our family would be better protected from losing everything we have ever worked for.

 

Do you see the difference? We are protected from the screw-ups of the public school system because if we don't like it or if it threatens our families then we can protect our families but just opting to homeschool. However, if our healthcare system threatens our families (which it does at a MUCH more devastating rate and cost than education does) we CANNOT protect our families from it because we have no other choice! Talk about being thrown to the wolves!

 

Anyway, I don't expect everyone to understand why it is so important that our current healthcare system be deep sixed and a universal system be made available. It's one of those things that you don't realize is so extremely broken until it breaks you.

 

So to answer your question, YES! YES! and YES! :hurray: I would TRUST my government with a universal healthcare plan!

 

It should also be duely noted that most people don't stop to realize just HOW much they already pay for coverage. It is probably pretty safe to say that the annual taxes individual families would have to pay for a universal healthcare plan would not exceed what most middle class families are already paying.

 

My family pays out approx. $400/month for coverage. That alone is $4800 annually. Then on top of this we have to pay $25-$35 office copays depending on what kind of doctor is seen. Then we have to pay co-pays for hospital stays, outpatient procedures, physical therapy etc. etc. etc. This doesn't even include medications, dental or vision. Let's not forget our 10% on all medical related care that is our responsibility and must be paid before insurance even kicks in. I would say that it is probably safe to say that the "average" insured American pays at least $5000 annually for healthcare. And this is if you are lucky and aren't hit with a catastrophic illness. Then you're looking at $100's of thousands. Trust me, I know. My bank account proves it.

 

Add all of these costs up when fighting the tax debate. Under a universal plan, yes, we would have to pay taxes but that's all we would pay. We are already paying through the teeth so I consider the taxes a wash with a monumental gain. Gone would be the copays, high monthly premiums etc. And we would be paying for a right that EVERY American should have. Just as we have the right to expect public safety forces like police and fire we should DEMAND the right to healthcare. It's just un-american and inhumane to have even ONE family need medical care or medicine and not be able to get it in one of the richest countries in the world!

 

Also please remember, we are talking about a specific group here that falls through the cracks. It is those hardworking, small business, middle class families that are being destroyed by our current system. The very poor do at least have some, albeit cruddy, options and the extremely rich don't need it because they can just pay their bills without insurance. The middle class citizens are the ones I"m speaking of and they account for the largest population group in our country. It's the families like mine that make too much money to get any help but don't make near enough to pay thier bills.

 

Okay, I'll be stepping down off my soap box now. :D

[pqr]

Oh yea, well if you think your health care is so great how come life expectancy in Canada is only 80.34 while here in the good old USA it's a whopping...what? did anyone check double-check the numbers? 78.06?

 

Never mind.

 

At least we beat Australia :D

 

Oh, we didn't.

 

New Zealand? No.

 

South Korea? No.

 

Greece? No.

 

Bosnia-Herzegovina? No.

 

Jordan? Not quite.

 

Haiti? We must be ahead of Haiti, please tell me we are ahead of Haiti?

 

Yes!

 

Yes? Yes!!! Woo hoo

 

:party: U.S.A. U.S.A. U.S.A.

 

A disgusting attitude; snide and arrogant demonstrating loathing of one's own nation, but regretfully I am not shocked.

 

Of course what you did not say is that part of the reason that we are only in the top 20%, (on the 2005-10 average or top 21% if you use the 2008 numbers) (oh you forgot to mention that didn't you ?) is lifestyle not healthcare. But you forgot to say that too.

 

Obesity and smoking which lead to heart diseases and cancers have NOTHING to do with health care but are, unfortunately, common in the US. But you forgot to say that too.

 

Further as has been stated mortality is frequently underreported in many nations. But....wait for it.....you forgot to mention that too.

 

One thing that I can say, in all honesty, something it appears that you also forgot is

 

GOD BLESS THE UNITED STATES for all her failings there is no place like her. We have our problems, but I will stay with her and do my utmost to support and defend her.

 

One thing that I would never do, could not conceive of, is post a snide comment aimed at belittling my nation. It is not that I have "forgotten" how to do that I was just raised differently so never learned. What you did was not discussion but rather a crass assault on your nation under the guise of debate. Post any figure you will, misrepresent them if you deem it necessary, but what you did should make you ashamed.

 

My apologies, to other posters, for my unpleasantness but the quoted post is outrageous (not necessarily in the statistics but in the attitude). By the way on this Memorial Day weekend let us remember the sacrifice that so many have made for this great nation.

Edited May 23, 2009 by pqr

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

A disgusting attitude; snide and arrogant demonstrating loathing of one's own nation, but regretfully I am not shocked.

 

Of course what you did not say is that part of the reason that we are only in the top 20%, (on the 2005-10 average or top 21% if you use the 2008 numbers) (oh you forgot to mention that didn't you ?) is lifestyle not healthcare. But you forgot to say that too.

 

Obesity and smoking which lead to heart diseases and cancers have NOTHING to do with health care but are, unfortunately, common in the US. But you forgot to say that too.

 

Further as has been stated mortality is frequently underreported in many nations. But....wait for it.....you forgot to mention that too.

 

One thing that I can say, in all honesty, something it appears that you also forgot is

 

GOD BLESS THE UNITED STATES for all her failings there is no place like her. We have our problems, but I will stay with her and do my utmost to support and defend her.

 

One thing that I would never do, could not conceive of, is post a snide comment aimed at belittling my nation. It is not that I have "forgotten" how to do that I was just raised differently so never learned. What you did was not discussion but rather a crass assault on your nation under the guise of debate. Post any figure you will, misrepresent them if you deem it necessary, but what you did should make you ashamed.

 

My apologies to other posters for turning nasty, but the quoted post is outrageous (not necessarily in the statistics but in the attitude).

 

 

:iagree:

 

Yes. Shame on you, Bill. (Why *is* the word "Spy" in your screen name? Hmmm??) America -- if you're not for us in every way, you're against us. If you're criticizing particular policy and outcomes, you're assaulting the Nation and All She Stands For. (Hey, I figure false dichotomy should *definitely* appeal to you, of all people.) Love her or go live somewhere else, like a developing nation so you can better appreciate the US and then primly lecture us on our poor uniformed attitude. Satire and a (lil) sarcasm was good enough for Jonathon Swift, but you, sir, are no Jonathan Swift. Public dissent on specific issues of disagreement is the lowest form of treason. You should know that. And you should be Ashamed.

 

Get right, sir, and quit your agitatin'. It ain't proper.

 

And make sure you tell your mama she didn't raise you right. It's good for her to know these things. And it's good for you to know you had a low-class upbringing so that you can, you know, aspire to better in the future or perhaps for your own children. (And watch the kids around those grandparents, as they might influence them badly like you have been. Just exercise caution, is all I'm saying. You see how it worked out for you, and you don't want to perpetuate that to future generations.)

[pqr]

Pam my issue was not with the figures, it was with the ballons, the attempt at humor, the sarcasm the mocking of the US. It was unnecessary, not treasonous but certainly distasteful .

 

We may all debate the issue (and I love to debate and discuss things it makes us all better) but there are other ways than were demonstrated.

 

Best pqr

Edited May 23, 2009 by pqr

[Melinda in VT]

GOD BLESS THE UNITED STATES for all her failings there is no place like her. We have our problems, but I will stay with her and do my utmost to support and defend her.

 

Just out of curiosity, pqr, when did you last live in the U.S.?

 

By the way on this Memorial Day weekend let us remember the sacrifice that so many have made for this great nation.

 

Bill posted late Thursday evening, his time, not on Memorial Day. Not even on Memorial Day weekend.

[laylamcb]

Bill posted late Thursday evening, his time, not on Memorial Day. Not even on Memorial Day weekend.

 

Oh, for crying out loud. Is this willful misunderstanding, or what? I think it's a good thing to remember the sacrifice of those who died defending our tomorrows even on days that are not TECHNICALLY Memorial Day. Can we at least agree on that?

 

And what on earth difference does it matter where pqr has lived or is living now? Many--most?--of those whose lives are on the line RIGHT NOW are not in fact in the contiguous 48 states as we speak.

 

Here's a thought: Let's all step away from our keyboards and take a moment today (or you could wait until the official Memorial Day, if you insist) to read "In Flanders Fields." Unless such imperialist, "pro-war" sentiments are repugnant to you. In which case...I got nothin'.

[pqr]

Live or visit? It has been a good 5 years since I lived in the States, but what does that have to do with the discussion? Perhaps it makes me appreciate the US more than some who have never seen the rest of the world.

 

As to Memorial Day weekend you are correct on the date of the initial post so if you (or anyone) thought I was taking a shot for poor timing of the initial post I will withdraw that charge.

 

Nevertheless, on this Memorial Day weekend let us remember the sacrifice that so many have made for this great nation

Edited May 23, 2009 by pqr

[Rosie_0801]

Yeah. Watch it Bill. If you turn your comments towards our hemisphere, Keptwoman and I are gonna get ya.

 

I think it's safe to say that Bill isn't going to care about what any of us say about his posts, so how about we write an F on his Civics report card and go back to the previous conversation or the thread will be locked by morning.

 

Back to the OP in a late night, rambling way: Do you think this could work for you? http://www.principality-hutt-river.com/

 

Rosie

[pqr]

Another microstate of disputed legitimacy.

 

http://www.sealandgov.org/

Edited May 23, 2009 by pqr

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

Pam my issue was not with the figures, it was with the ballons, the attempt at humor, the sarcasm the mocking of the US. It was unnecessary, not treasonous but certainly distasteful .

 

We may all debate the issue (and I love to debate and discuss things it makes us all better) but there are other ways than were demonstrated.

 

Best pqr

 

 

He was not, from what I can see, mocking the US. He was mocking mindlessly zealous "patriotism." It's perceived as a prevailing attitude in the US that we're better than everyone else in the world, and the chant of "USA, USA, USA!" sort of epitomizes that.

 

It starts at the local level in the schools. Most of our schools are well above average in achievement. (Read about that here -- an excellent book.) On the national level it continues with various policy issues -- we chose the path, therefore it must be most virtuous and most efficient, because we are coasting on our former "glory" and previous generations' moral capital. (IMO)

 

"We're the best, down with the rest!" attitudes deserve a little gentle mocking, IMO. But then, I've never been much of a cheerleader, and large groups chanting ANYthing frighten me.

Edited May 23, 2009 by Pam "SFSOM" in TN
clarification

[Rosie_0801]

Hey, Hutt River isn't disputed! Or if it is, it's been disputed for nearly 40 years which is as good as undisputed in my opinion. My opinion is worth little in this case, of course, as I'm not accustomed to dealing with international affairs with such lofty persons as heads of state.

 

The Principality of Sealand might be cool, but I think Hutt River wins classiness points as they are not inviting people to join their Facebook group! The shop is most definitely tacky. I think Lonely Planet has a book out on all these micro-states. After reading Sealand's history page I think it sounds like a story made up for someone's school project. Kidnapping?

 

Hey, here's one!

 

Copied from the All Reliable Wikipedia

A small number of microstates are founded on historical anomalies or eccentric interpretations of law. These types of microstates are usually located on small (usually disputed) territorial enclaves, generate limited economic activity founded on tourism and philatelic and numismatic sales, and are tolerated or ignored by the nations from which they claim to have seceded.

One example includes the Republic of Indian Stream, now the town of Pittsburg, New Hampshire — A geographic anomaly left unresolved by Treaty of Paris that ended the U.S. Revolutionary War, and claimed by both the U.S. and Canada. Between 1832 and 1835, the area's residents refused to acknowledge either claimant.

 

 

!!

Rosie

Edited May 23, 2009 by Rosie_0801

[Melinda in VT]

Oh, for crying out loud. Is this willful misunderstanding, or what? I think it's a good thing to remember the sacrifice of those who died defending our tomorrows even on days that are not TECHNICALLY Memorial Day. Can we at least agree on that?

 

And what on earth difference does it matter where pqr has lived or is living now? Many--most?--of those whose lives are on the line RIGHT NOW are not in fact in the contiguous 48 states as we speak.

 

Here's a thought: Let's all step away from our keyboards and take a moment today (or you could wait until the official Memorial Day, if you insist) to read "In Flanders Fields." Unless such imperialist, "pro-war" sentiments are repugnant to you. In which case...I got nothin'.

 

Layla, no it wasn't a willful misunderstanding, although it's possible I misunderstood.

 

I read pqr's post as saying that Bill was being *especially* unpatriotic by posting his post on Memorial Day weekend, and I was just pointing out that when you take timezones into account, Bill wasn't.

 

Now it's clear pqr and I (and perhaps you and I) disagree on whether Bill's post was unpatriotic at all. I agree with Pam. That's a larger issue. And one I don't think pqr and I will ever see eye to eye on.

 

I do agree that it's important to remember those who have given their lives for us. My brother is currently stationed in a hot, dusty place, away from his family, so I'm thinking about that more than ever these days. And I read "In Flanders Fields" yesterday.

 

So there's two things we agree on. And based on your avatar, I'm thinking Firefly makes three.

Edited May 23, 2009 by Melinda in VT
no need to quote the post twice

[unsinkable]

Oohh! Bill, I tell you, I'm loving you more and more everyday! :001_wub:

 

While we're talking about life expectency why don't we throw in another like the number of infant mortality deaths. Because, I mean, it's delivering babies?

 

Lets see, surely we must have a higher survival rate for infant births. No one could possible deliver babies better than us. After all, we're America! I mean our infant mortality rate is ONLY 6.4%

 

Let's see, surely we beat

Canada? Nope - 4.6%

How about France? Nope - 4.2%

Australia? Nope - 4.6%

Austria? Nope - 4.5%

Czech Republic? Nope - 3.9%

Denmark? No - 4.5%

Finland? No - 3.5%

France? No - 4.2

Germany? No - 4.1%

Greece? No - 5.3%

Ireland? No - 5.2%

Italy? No - 5.7%

Japan? No - 3.2%

South Korea? No - 6.1%

New Zealand? No - 5.7%

Norway? No - 3.6%

Portugal? No - 4.9%

Spain? No - 4.3%

Switzerland? No - 4.3%

 

And the winner of all studied countries is.... drum roll please ......

 

SWEDEN! At a VERY low 2.8%

 

But wait, surely we beat Israel. Please, PLEASE tell me we beat Israel.

 

Yes! Yes! Yes! We do! :hurray: Israel's 6.8% to our 6.4%

 

:party:U.S.A! U.S.A!

 

Oh, but wait, CRAP! Their life expectency is 7.9% to our 78%. Just when I thought our stats looked sooooo good.

 

:willy_nilly: :banghead: :cursing:

 

 

 

P.S. The stats of this study were the percentage of infant deaths per 1000 births.

 

The tone of this post makes me uncomfortable. Infant mortality is something very serious. I don't think it is appropriate to write about it in this way (winners/losers, beating different countries, party smilies).

 

Of course, you are free to write what you want, in the manner you want.

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

By pqr A disgusting attitude; snide and arrogant demonstrating loathing of one's own nation, but regretfully I am not shocked.

 

 

I think is quite American to voice your opinion and even be critical of our own goverment:) Heck, it we could not criticize our goverment or voice our opinions, then I think that would be a dictatorship of sorts;)

 

Also, if I am not mistaken, our forefathers had a disagreements/opinions about our goverment and that does mean that they loved our country any less.

 

I also think that humour can be a powerful way to express your opinions. Just look at Jon Stewart:) I also think it is very American and in no way un-patriotic.

[pqr]

I think is quite American to voice your opinion and even be critical of our own goverment:) Heck, it we could not criticize our goverment or voice our opinions, then I think that would be a dictatorship of sorts;)

 

Also, if I am not mistaken, our forefathers had a disagreements/opinions about our goverment and that does mean that they loved our country any less.

 

I also think that humour can be a powerful way to express your opinions. Just look at Jon Stewart:) I also think it is very American and in no way un-patriotic.

 

 

Critical and mocking are two very different things. Further there is a difference between a government and a country.

 

We disagree on the topic of health care and it may become heated, that is fine. There is nothing wrong with that. My anger was not with the figures or the fact that we disagree it was with the mocking of the US.

Edited May 23, 2009 by pqr

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

by pqr Critical and mocking are two very different things. Further there is a difference between a government and a country.

 

We disagree on the topic of health care and it may become heated, that is fine. There is nothing wrong with that. My anger was not with the figures or the fact that we disagree it was with the mocking of the US.

 

 

I really do not think Spy Car was mocking the U.S. I think he was artfully using humour to bring across his point that maybe the U.S. Healthcare sytsem is not all it is cracked up to be. I am sure he is as patriotic as any of us here on this board:) I know that I thank god for living in the good old U.S.A. even though I am praying that our country will finally do the right thing and institute universal health care once and for all:)

Edited May 23, 2009 by priscilla
spelling

[Firefly]

Heck yeah I would TRUST our government. At least considering the alternative. Consider it picking the worst of the two evils. Did you read my post about what has happened to my family and others like mine under our current system. I would trust our government to oversee this WAAAYYY more than I TRUST private, big business, made for profit insurance companies! The controllers of our current healthcare system have done so amazingly well for my family and millions of others so far. :ack2:

 

Unfortunately I feel more and more that big business and government are in cahoots... so where does that leave us? [rhetorical question here :)] There are big problems for sure-- I just don't know what the answers are. I've thoroughly enjoyed reading both side of this conversation, though! Gives me a lot to think about...

 

I'm so sorry for what you and your family went through.:grouphug:

[pqr]

I really do not think Spy Car was mocking the U.S. I think he was artfully using humour to bring across his point that maybe the U.S. Healthcare sytsem is not all it is cracked up to be. I am sure he is as patriotic as any of us here on this board:) I know that I thank god for living in the good old U.S.A. even though I am praying that our country will finally do the right thing and institute universal health care once and for all:)

 

 

Priscilla I pray that we never institute that system and we may honestly disagree on what is the correct route.

 

As to "artful humor" well I saw little that was artful in it.

[JumpedIntoTheDeepEndFirst]

Just out of curiosity, pqr, when did you last live in the U.S.?

 

 

 

I knew there was a residency requirement to gain citizenship but I wasn't aware that if a citizen is outside of the country too long they may no longer voice an opinion as an American.

 

Better be sure that memo gets to all the folks with the State Department and Department of Defense who are overseas, don't forget the Peace Corps or any of the folks working to set up and maintain businesses in other countries as well.

[stripe]

Live or visit? It has been a good 5 years since I lived in the States, but what does that have to do with the discussion? Perhaps it makes me appreciate the US more than some who have never seen the rest of the world.

I think the point is that most visitors to the US have limited interaction with the healthcare system.

 

Things are quite expensive here. That's an undisputed fact.

 

Paying for, say, one trip to the doctor's office or a prescription as a tourist is an entirely different matter from paying thousands of dollars per night's stay in a hospital, thirty dollars for a dose of Tylenol while in there, and so on.

 

Giving birth in a hospital (regular birth) costs in excess of $20,000. Even those with health insurance pay thousands of dollars. A trip to the emergency room costs thousands of dollars.

The number one reason for personal bankruptcy in this country is medical bills.

For those who think the uninsured have it easy -- try to obtain medical services for yourself (even as a hypothetical) without insurance. See how much it might cost if you, say, broke an arm or need leukemia treatment. See if you can even find out! -- I recently called the urgent care unit of the closest hospital and they would only disclose the initial charge, and refused to tell me what other charges might be! I asked, do you not know or you won't tell me. She said she would NOT tell me. Yes, there are some free clinics; yes, emergency rooms will treat you, but that doesn't mean they don't send a bill and then send out collection agents. That doesn't mean every uninsured person gets top quality health care for cancer, asthma, or diabetes -- by which I mean preventative and maintenance care, not emergency intervention. Maybe someone with a gunshot wound can get stitched back up.

 

If great medical care can be easily obtained for free -- why is anyone paying for it?

 

Are you comfortable living in a country where people with contagious diseases are not getting treated? Might it impact you if the person cooking your take-out food has a cough that just isn't going away but which he can't afford to have looked at yet? Might it impact you if a chunk of the workforce dies young because they are not being treated for health conditions?

 

Institute of Medicine research suggests serious gaps in health care in our country:

41 million uninsured Americans exhibit consistently worse clinical outcomes than the insured, and are at increased risk for dying prematurely.

 

More than 50% of patients with diabetes, hypertension, tobacco addiction, hyperlipidemia, congestive heart failure, asthma, depression and chronic atrial fibrillation are currently managed inadequately.

 

18,000 Americans die each year from heart attacks because they did not receive preventive medications, although they were eligible for them

 

Do you think we are draining our society at all, if a significant number of people are at risk for early death due to lack of medical care? Doesn't this impact the fabric of the country? Are we really able to pursue

 

This article is fairly interesting: "an attempt to place a value on what it costs a person, and society, when health insurance is lacking."

Covering The Uninsured: What Is It Worth?

 

I am not sure what my interest in homeschooling has to do with anything. I think I can lead my children to a good education while they are young.

 

What are my options with medical care -- Do-it-myself? I think not. I for one expect this society to have good police care, safe food and water supply, good public library systems, a decent transportation system, good roads, certifying drivers as safe on the road, and so on. I don't have time to patrol my city, pave its roads, build bridges, and run its sewer processing plant single-handedly. It seems to me that many of the homeschoolers on this board readily embrace their local public library system; I have heard very few people express philosophical objections to using theirs, and only purchasing volumes for their exclusive home use. American citizens should not be crippled under crushing medical debt or ignored and left to die, under the guise of "individualism."

 

We can believe in the ideals of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness without wanting to go back to Constitution-era medicine. Let's not "bite the bullet" and rely on large amounts of whiskey to get through this one.

[pqr]

I think the point is that most visitors to the US have limited interaction with the healthcare system.

 

 

 

 

Except that I am not a visitor, I am an American with brothers, sisters, parents, aunts, uncles nephews, nieces etc living in the States. I actually know of what I speak, I wouldn't post otherwise.

I have lived in nations that have seen the curse of "universal health care" and can state unequivocally that what we need to do is fix our system, not adopt socialized medicine.

Institute legal reform, do other things, but never never adopt socialized medicine

[stripe]

Except that I am not a visitor, I am an American with brothers, sisters, parents, aunts, uncles nephews, nieces etc living in the States. I actually know of what I speak, I wouldn't post otherwise.

 

You misunderstand me. I wasn't saying that you are a tourist or that you don't know anything on this topic. I was saying that, as a non-resident, you have less interaction with the American health care system than a resident. Even if you have family members here, it's second hand knowledge, and things do change as time passes.

 

I don't think one has to be only for "socialized medicine" in order to point out major flaws in our system.

[MomLovesClassics]

About medical care. Those that do not have insurance are often times charged a different much higher rate than say those that do have insurance. Insurance companies have contracts with hospitals and doctors to only pay for certain things, and only pay certain amounts.

As far as hospital charges go, I was charged over $2000 for an ultrasound, for a technician that was so rough I had to fight back tears from the pain. Then I was charged $500 for two pills that were generic that would have cost me $4 at any pharmacy in town, I tried to refuse taking them but they were extremely persistant and argued with me for over 20 minutes until I agreed. I regret ever going to the emergency room that day after getting the $15,000 bill for such poor quality care. It was not just one bill but so many tiny seperate bills. Then when you make arrangements to pay, and pay faithfully and on time, they still turn your account over to collections. It ruins ones credit. Our credit is in such embarassing poor shape because of medical bills.

As for insurance companies, they are out to make a profit, not much more.

[pqr]

 

I don't think one has to be only for "socialized medicine" in order to point out major flaws in our system.

 

 

There you go, something we agree on as our system does have major flaws.

[stripe]

There you go, something we agree on as our system does have major flaws.

 

I am delighted that we have found something to agree on. :)

[Dirtroad]

Unfortunately I feel more and more that big business and government are in cahoots... so where does that leave us? [rhetorical question here :)] There are big problems for sure-- I just don't know what the answers are. I've thoroughly enjoyed reading both side of this conversation, though! Gives me a lot to think about...

 

I'm so sorry for what you and your family went through.:grouphug:

 

:iagree: Both are about money. However I trust capitalism to government anyday. Governments have killed more people in the history of the world than any capitalist.

 

My issue (that she had commented upon) is that I do not see one system that the goverment runs well and efficiently (even the military operations are constantly infringed upon by the politicians). They are slow, bloated, and indifferent.

 

Our school systems are not failures of the state but MANDATES from the FEDS that tie the state hands b/c they become addicted ot the money. The National education system was established to get everyone thinking alike and learning the same things NOT excellence. The values in Alabama may be very different than those of California.... why do they have to teach the exact same or feed kids the same foods, etc. (not talking reading & writing) There is no flexibility & few options. Look at feds outlook on vouchers... no choice. Do was we say or nothing.

 

Atleast with private insurance, I HAVE A CHOICE. I will not have that in gov't care. My parents are BOTH self employed business owners with health problems (serious heart issues for father). They have no problems with BCBS and get great care. The pay a bit much on prescriptions but lifestyle changes would cut that back (they aren't willing & keep paying). However, the fees are not crazy either. About $360 per month for each (they are divorced). They found a plan that allows them ot pool together with other small businesses. I will say some companies are much worse than others... but we can shop around.

 

There are options. With the government, there will not be any. Atleast competition puts some heat under them all.

 

There are awful horror stories in every system. It is heartbreaking. A 19 year old girl in Britain has lost all her teeth b/c she couldn't get a dentist for over a year. She finally had to go to a ER and they pulled all her teeth. her mouth is so damaged, that they reported it may be years before she can get dentures. 19! Not life or death... but not my idea of good care.

 

Sorry, but I have seen the medicaid/medicare lines & doctors in my area. I wouldn' t use any of the doctors that make that their main source of business.

 

If you pay $1000 for private... you will pay much more with Gov't. They will have more beauracracy, more abuse, and more people running to the doctor for the least splinter (you see this in low deductible insurance too).

 

The horror stories are awful & everywhere. But atleast I have a choice in my private care options & my doctors.

[Dirtroad]

I got to thinking on another area of gov't healthcare. We assume that if we had a catastrophic illness the gov't will pay for it all.

 

Do you remember Hillary Clinton wondering why a man in his early 90s needed a heart by-pass? She said someone that age did not need such a procedure. (I can't quote it directly, but it was a point made in the controversy and it stuck with me). They will decide when you are no longer cost efficient or productive to society. (Horror stories of the elderly are already coming out from Holland)

 

I think that attitude is only the tip of the iceberg. My heart aches in tragedies. But with government care, they will occur too.

 

I just want the choice of my care & my doctors... and my fees. I want the choice of a vehicle that carries 6 or 7 and not 4 (in a matchbox sitting arrangement).... of a house that I can afford to heat & cool... and of groceries that I can select at will (not a bread line or potato ration line, etc). Capitalism gives me options... governments give me taxes & no options.

 

That is what I was thinking of when reading the OP!

[mommyrooch]

The tone of this post makes me uncomfortable. Infant mortality is something very serious. I don't think it is appropriate to write about it in this way (winners/losers, beating different countries, party smilies).

 

Of course, you are free to write what you want, in the manner you want.

 

What about it makes you uncomfortable? The fact that it is true or the fact that someone pointed it out?

 

I am the one that originally posted this and I assure you that I am ANYTHING but uncaring or incensitive to the seriousness of infant mortality. Sarcastic, yes. Uncaring? NO!

 

In 1997 my husband and I lost our first son during child birth. I understand all TOO well, better than most probably, just HOW serious this is. I am going to have to go out and vist my son's grave this weeked so I'm sure I'll get a reminder while I'm looking at his name written on his headstone. I also get reminders every holiday that we visit him out there. I'm reminded on his birthday every year and let's not forget how I'm reminded every day while I watch my other two children play and realize that they'll never know their big brother and I"ll never hug my son. :crying:

 

Forgive me if I am a bit sarcastic on the issue. It is very hard to not feel bitter after my countries healthcare system has let me down so horribly. Not only once but twice.

 

My first horrible experience with our healthcare system was when I lost my first son to medical negligence. My son died as a result of his OB refusing to perforn a C-Section to deliver him even though I had carried him 10 MONTHS. I was 4 weeks overdue! He was in serious stress for over 23 hours before he finally crashed. His heart rate was jumping from 180 back down to 90, back up to 210 then down to 80. This went on for 23 HOURS. They knew he was in trouble. We were begging them to just take the baby. My OB looked me in the face and said that they were holding off on the C-Section because the insurance company was putting pressure on them to cut back on the number of C-Sections they performed because a C-Section cost the company a LOT more than a natural delivery.

 

I was only a 20 year old girl and I didn't understand how serious this was. I trusted my doctor. Isn't that what we're supposed to be able to do in the richest most powerful country in the world.

 

My son was perfect. I never even had morning sickness. I just didn't go into labor. My OB had attempted induction at 3 weeks overdue but it failed so she sent me home and told me me come back in a week if I didn't go into labor and we'd try again. I didn't go into labor so it was at the second attempt at induction that everything went wrong. She manually broke my water and saw mechonium when she did. My son had already started having bowel movements because he'd been in there so long. She left him in there for 23 HOURS after breaking my water. His cause of death was suffication. He had choked to death on the mechonium because with the water no longer in there it was no longer diluted and he was sucking it down his throat in an effort to breath.

 

Had my OB just taken him by C-Section he would have been here today. However, because a private, made for money insurance company was pressuring her to cut down on C-Sections so THEY wouldn't have to pay as much, he died. My OB was trying to do everything to make me deliver him naturally.

 

You want to know the bitter irony in this though. I ended up having to have the C-Section anyway. When my son crashed I guess they finally decided it was warranted so I was rushed in for an emergency C-Section. Had she just taken him the previous day as we requested he would still be here today. I kick myself everyday for not making her take him but I just didn't understand how in trouble he was. I trusted her. It's a mistake I'll never make again! I will never blindly put the life of my loved ones in the hands of a doctor again.

 

The second time I was crushed by our healthcare system was when my second son was diagnosed with Leukemia. You can read my previous posts if you want to know how well that has worked out for our family.

 

Anyway, my point in this post is to encourage you that when you're reading a post please don't assume that the person on the other side of the keyboard does not take the topic VERY seriously or is just uncaringly incensitive to it.

 

If I offened you I am sorry. That was not my intention. :001_smile: I was intentionally being sarcastic however. I was only trying to stress that we live in one of the richest countries in the world yet tragedies like this occur in higher numbers here than they do in poorer countries and countries with socialized healthcare. My sarcasm was directed towards the ironicness in that. NOT towards the death of babies. As mentioned, I do truly understand how terrible that is.

 

I hope you can see where I was coming from now. :)

[BalanceSeeker]

Is there ANYONE here that agrees that, in a civilized, free country, government's primary role is to protect the innocent people from harm, not to take control of the free market? And, that that line has blurred as of late?

 

So, if one has great health coverage and wants to keep it, they should be allowed to do so? (i.e. Don't punish the insurance companies who are playing by the rules buy putting them out of business?) (I vote yes)

 

And, if one has a pre-existing and can't get coverage, should healthcare be considered a right for innocent people regardless of whether or not they are poverty level? (I vote yes)

 

If a parent chooses not to teach their children at home because they don't want to or can't because of job status, is it govt's job to provide education to innocent children? (I'm sure we'd all vote yes)

 

Is it govt's job to protect innocent people from abuses in the free market? If yes, is is necessary to go so far as taking over giant industries altogether such as banks and auto industry? (I vote no). (Of course, if they are indeed in cahoots as someone suggested, then we have corruption and govt has failed the people altogether).

 

Is it right for those making our laws to be primarily concerned with their own personal gain, rather than serving a duty to the people of this country? (I vote no, they have a duty to serve the people first and foremost.)

 

Is it govt's job to protect its people from crime by providing enough police? (I vote yes)

 

Is it govt's job to protect innocent people from acts of terrorism? (I vote yes, and think the last administration did a fantastic job of this.)

 

Is it govt's job to ensure those entering our country are held accountable and expected to contribute to our system if they are going to take from it in order to protect the citizens? (I vote, yes)

 

A country who believes in these values is what I was referring to in my OP. I have not been to the other countries mentioned (where the citizens on this board are thrilled to live there). I'm have no knowledge of how those in office conduct themselves, which is why I asked if it existed anywhere else. It is my opinion that our administration needs to get back to basics and keep their eye on the ball, so that they pay enough attention to and have enough money (not printed) to do a good job of protecting us. They are off on so many tangents right now and I'm deeply concerned about the really important issues suffering. (That's my opinion, thanks for letting me have it ;))

[Audrey]

It should also be duely noted that most people don't stop to realize just HOW much they already pay for coverage. It is probably pretty safe to say that the annual taxes individual families would have to pay for a universal healthcare plan would not exceed what most middle class families are already paying.

 

My family pays out approx. $400/month for coverage. That alone is $4800 annually. Then on top of this we have to pay $25-$35 office copays depending on what kind of doctor is seen. Then we have to pay co-pays for hospital stays, outpatient procedures, physical therapy etc. etc. etc. This doesn't even include medications, dental or vision. Let's not forget our 10% on all medical related care that is our responsibility and must be paid before insurance even kicks in. I would say that it is probably safe to say that the "average" insured American pays at least $5000 annually for healthcare. And this is if you are lucky and aren't hit with a catastrophic illness. Then you're looking at $100's of thousands. Trust me, I know. My bank account proves it.

 

Add all of these costs up when fighting the tax debate. Under a universal plan, yes, we would have to pay taxes but that's all we would pay. We are already paying through the teeth so I consider the taxes a wash with a monumental gain. Gone would be the copays, high monthly premiums etc. And we would be paying for a right that EVERY American should have. Just as we have the right to expect public safety forces like police and fire we should DEMAND the right to healthcare. It's just un-american and inhumane to have even ONE family need medical care or medicine and not be able to get it in one of the richest countries in the world!

 

Also please remember, we are talking about a specific group here that falls through the cracks. It is those hardworking, small business, middle class families that are being destroyed by our current system. The very poor do at least have some, albeit cruddy, options and the extremely rich don't need it because they can just pay their bills without insurance. The middle class citizens are the ones I"m speaking of and they account for the largest population group in our country. It's the families like mine that make too much money to get any help but don't make near enough to pay thier bills.

 

Okay, I'll be stepping down off my soap box now. :D

 

 

Sometimes I hear people say our taxes are "so high" up here, but when you start actually comparing services for taxes, I pay so much less it's almost embarrasing! This year, my dh and I paid (in fed & prov taxes) about 1/3 of what I, alone, paid for premiums in a low-cost group insurance plan 15 years ago. If the ONLY THING we ever got from our government was our health care, we'd still come out way ahead.

 

Also, in my province we have no co-pay for most services. In fact, I've never needed anything that required co-pay, not even during pregnancy. My late mil got all her cancer treatment with no out of pocket charges. Good attentive care. No long waiting for procedures or treatments once prescribed. She was even part of a trial for a new procedure. To be fair, though, the ambulance service is on your own dime unless you have BCBS or something else. Last time I heard it was $250 to take you from here into the City (about 150 miles away).

 

Still... far less than premiums to giant insurance companies. It's not like you can't get extra coverage here, though. Lots of people do, especially to help with dental or opto. (Although, for opto in my province, yearly eye exams for kids under 18 are free).

[Audrey]

read "In Flanders Fields."

 

 

:iagree: It's a beautiful Canadian poem by a fine Canadian doctor, eh?

[stripe]

Do you remember Hillary Clinton wondering why a man in his early 90s needed a heart by-pass? She said someone that age did not need such a procedure. (I can't quote it directly, but it was a point made in the controversy and it stuck with me). They will decide when you are no longer cost efficient or productive to society.

My husband recently received a phone call from a woman who claims she's been talking to him regularly about politics (?!), who had all sorts of "stories" about how Obama doesn't care about life and doesn't care about his grandma, etc etc. It was pathetic.

 

(Horror stories of the elderly are already coming out from Holland)

There are plenty of horror stories of Americans, too. Old and young. Some have been shared in this thread.

 

It is worth considering -- not in a "let's bump off the oldies" way -- if spending mass amounts of money on the elderly is the best way to go. If every old, sick person really wants to die in a hospital. Some people with terminal illness want to die at home, quietly. This is also known as hospice care. And some people in our society seem to be in denial of one of life's great truths: we all die. No matter how much health care you get, you will still die one day. So it makes me wonder why we are so willing, as a society, to spend so much on expensive interventions for people in their last 6 months of life, but we don't see it as valuable to offer people basic, preventative care (which is much cheaper) throughout their lives.

 

I just want the choice of my care & my doctors... and my fees. I want the choice of a vehicle that carries 6 or 7 and not 4 (in a matchbox sitting arrangement).... of a house that I can afford to heat & cool... and of groceries that I can select at will (not a bread line or potato ration line, etc). Capitalism gives me options... governments give me taxes & no options.

Are you genuinely under the impression that in Sweden, Canada, or Australia, there is bread rationing? These type of scare tactics are really not conducive to serious discussion.

 

So I have a choice between spending a lot of money and getting care, or saving my money and getting none? Is that really a "choice"?

 

Our health care system also gives some people the option of food, or heath care. Of holding off treatment as long as possible or going in early, while it's still treatable. Of getting a foot amputated or dying of complications from gangrene.

 

Most HMOs don't really offer people a choice. You have a choice between a pre-selected list of doctors; your doctor can pick from a list of pre-approved medicines to treat you; your insurance company may decide that you should receive the generic, not the name brand, and so on. They are making the choices. Unless you're paying cash (and have a crack team of medical researchers choosing your facilities), you are having choices made for you ALREADY.

 

It may be working for you, but it's not working for many of us.

[kalanamak]

 

Anyway, this man, who is a millionaire, would agree with many of you here, in terms of feeling his freedom infringed upon and more importantly, being punished for his success. So, he's currently moving most of his assets offshore and he's presently in New Zealand researching that country as a possible country for emmigration should things in this country continue down this high-regulation, less individual freedom path.

 

His family are multi-millionaires, but in many ways I don't envy their position. They pay over 60% of their income in taxes! He has been targeted for his conservative beliefs by government agencies on more than one occasion. He's been investigated for having firearms and hosting political fundraisers in his house. All of which would be considered harmless if done by the average citizen, but his exceptional wealth makes him a bigger target.

 

 

 

How odd. I know someone very, very rich, and he visits George on his ranch instead of getting investigated. I will say his taxes are audited every year :).

 

As for moving assets off shore, he is giving his away, instead. His kids will never starve, but they won't have his degree of wealth. He has scholarships (he was a scholarship boy), drug rehab facilities, etc. Every year he gives away more than I'll make in my lifetime. And he started from nothing.

[nmoira]

So, if one has great health coverage and wants to keep it, they should be allowed to do so? (i.e. Don't punish the insurance companies who are playing by the rules buy putting them out of business?) (I vote yes)

 

And, if one has a pre-existing and can't get coverage, should healthcare be considered a right for innocent people regardless of whether or not they are poverty level? (I vote yes)

But these two things are related. If insurance companies service only those with group coverage (which have maximum lifetime payouts) and those with without pre-existing conditions, then that leaves (1) a group of people who are likely to have far higher than average medical bills to be covered by a government program, and (2) the rest, perhaps the majority, who feel they get nothing from the program.

[mommyrooch]

At least with private insurance, I HAVE A CHOICE. I will not have that in gov't care. My parents are BOTH self employed business owners with health problems (serious heart issues for father). They have no problems with BCBS and get great care. The pay a bit much on prescriptions but lifestyle changes would cut that back (they aren't willing & keep paying). However, the fees are not crazy either. About $360 per month for each (they are divorced). They found a plan that allows them ot pool together with other small businesses. I will say some companies are much worse than others... but we can shop around.

 

Obviously you did not read my post. I CAN"T shop around! My son has the diagnosis of Acute Lymphocytic Leukemia. CANCER! He is now branded with a pre-exisitng condition and private insurance companies won't touch him with a ten foot poll! We've tried! Don't you remember me mentioning how badly my husband would like to start his own business? We can only dream of this though. We have contacted every insurance company known to man and NO company will insure my son under a private plan because of the cancer diagnosis.

 

I do pray that either of your parents are never hit with a cancer diagnosis. Their rosy colored insurance coverage with BCBS will crush them. They will most likely lose their hard earned business because they won't be able to afford the bills that pile up over the years of therapy. They'll be sunk because they WON'T be able to shop around! No other insurance company will take them.

 

The horror stories are awful & everywhere. But atleast I have a choice in my private care options & my doctors.

 

Yes, the horror stories are awful but your post here just proves what I stated earlier. People just cannot understand how devastating our current system is unless they have been crushed by it. You're statement of "shopping around" and "having a choice" proves that you still don't understand the way our current system works. If you have a pre-existing condition like cancer you DON'T have options and you CAN'T shop around. We do NOT have any other options. And keep in mind, I have BCBS too and my family has been crushed because of the system.

 

Like I said, I pray your parents or anyone in your family is NEVER hit with something like that. I'm happy that everything is working out okay for them. I just wish all of us could be so lucky. :)

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

by balance seeker So, if one has great health coverage and wants to keep it, they should be allowed to do so? (i.e. Don't punish the insurance companies who are playing by the rules buy putting them out of business?)

 

I am not convinced that private insurance companies always pay by the rules:glare: (glare is directed at insurance companies, not to any posters)It seems that they routinely deny legitimate claims. There have been exposes on private insurance companies who have done this for the sole purpose of profits at the expense of the subscriber.

 

Private health insurance often will not cover pre-exisiting illnesses. They also artificially break up all of their individual and group subscribers and base their rates upon the health of these artificial groups. For example, if your company has the misfortune have having a few sick employees, then the premiums will go up accordingly. My past employers and its employees have had to deal with up to 20-50% increases in premiums in health insurance year after year. That is unsustainable and made it difficult for these businesses to say the least. At the very least, health insurance companies should have to consider the group as every last one of the subscribers when determining rates.

 

Then, I hear the argument that the goverment will deprive seniors and others of necessary care. I do not believe that either. I think that many seniors are very happy to have medicare. I know my parents are very happy:) I have also taken care of many seniors with medicare that had all of the latest medical care given to them in critical care including open heart surgery. Why would our goverment change its current policy of providing care?:confused: I think that argument is mis-guided.

 

I also hear that public health insurance will be less efficient and cost more than private health insurance. From what I understand, medicare is much more efficient than the private medicare options and that our goverment must subsidize these private options:001_huh: Perhaps it has something to do with the fact that there is not a fat layer of executives/administrators making a lot of money in the medicare offices. I am sure medicare is not perfect, but I would take it anyday:)

 

I cannot help but think that insurance companies are only motivated by the bottom line when it comes to health care decisions. I pray for universal public health insurance.

 

Contact info for U.S. Congress

http://www.house.gov/

Edited May 23, 2009 by priscilla
spelling/clarification

[Heather in the Kootenays]

:iagree: It's a beautiful Canadian poem by a fine Canadian doctor, eh?

 

 

I was enjoying the irony of that quietly but couldn't get up the courage to point it out.

[nmoira]

 

I was enjoying the irony of that quietly but couldn't get up the courage to point it out.

That's so Canadian of you. ;)

[Heather in the Kootenays]

That's so Canadian of you. ;)

 

Thank you.

 

Frankly getting in the middle of an American health care debate is too puzzling and too scarey for me. It is endlessly fascinating though.

[Heather in the Kootenays]

Mommyrooch, I am so sorry. :grouphug:

[nmoira]

Thank you.

 

Frankly getting in the middle of an American health care debate is too puzzling and too scarey for me. It is endlessly fascinating though.

I'm a Canadian living in the US, and I suspect it's even scarier from my position. :ack2: I have an ongoing health issue (nothing terribly serious, just one requiring regular attention) and am constantly reminded of how much I took for granted while in Canada... not to mention hearing horror stories from some of my friends and acquainances. Fortunately, I'm covered under my husband's group plan, as I either would not be accepted under a private plan, or the premiums would be astronomical.

[Lady Q]

The discussion started due to seeking a country that suits the OPs value system.... we had had so many views on conservative/liberal.... government/individual.... on & on. Even statistics from WHO and how long we may live...

 

I have to wonder (if we are pretty much all homeschoolers on this board), why would you TRUST the government with your health care, good will, and best interest... when we don't even trust them to properly educate our children?

 

This is not a mean spirited comment. It just got me thinking. I homeschool B/c I feel the school systems have failed miserably (and for many other reasons as I am sure you all do). Why would I trust the same leadership who can't teach my child to READ A BOOK to provide me with the ideal doctor, the best car for my family, or the best art for my enjoyment? :confused:

 

But perhaps this is another thread... sorry if way off course.

 

I was thinking the same thing. We homeschoolers are against the notion that government should have the monopoly on education. Do we really want the government to have a monopoly on healthcare?

 

As for statistics, you know what they say about lies, d*mned lies and statistics. :D Just off the top of my head, I can think of a few factors that determine infant mortality rate that do not have to do with quality of healthcare. Preterm births, for instance. ART has caused a great increase in births of multiples--maybe other countries have lower multiples births than the US? How about lifestyle choices, like drug use? Or maybe mothers in the US are less likely to abort children with serious medical issues than in other countries? (I'm not saying any of these are true--I don't have time to research all this--but my point is that you can't necessarily look at these numbers and say that the reason why the US has a higher infant mortality rate is because of worse medical care).

[nmoira]

 

I was thinking the same thing. We homeschoolers are against the notion that government should have the monopoly on education. Do we really want the government to have a monopoly on healthcare?

The federal government doesn't have a monopoly on education, nor do the state governments. Private schools are legal and largely unregulated. Of course, most won't accept special needs students...

[Mrs Mungo]

They knew the slavery issue was wrong. It was evident with "all men are created equal".... it was there to remind the weak & greedy they they were wrong. It was in bold print to remind them! But so many were politically wimpy & wouldn't face the needs for it's abolition when the country was founded.

 

As for Bill of Rights.... the dust had never settled over the Constitution. Patrick Henry and others were stirring a BIG STINK over the lack of limitations in the Constitution. They knew you couldn't trust the "goodness of man OR government" to prevail & the people needed PROTECTION from this government (as they would any gov't). Not all states had signed the deal. Madison tried to find the compromise & thus the Bill of Rights. It brought the final States on board.

 

I made no decision of your political persuasions. You ASKED ME if I believed in a living document. Most conservatives (politically speaking) today say no... it is more of those on the liberal side the discuss these matters with such vocabulary. I have NO CLUE what group you are the most comfortable with. IT was a general reference & not a personal one.

 

As for amendments they are part of the document... not interpretations or current trends or moral inklings based on polls or policital manipulations. They are so difficult to obtain that the battle is well fought & the adjustments made. They aren't interpretations made by political appointees or politicians seeking an advantage on some issue. They can't bend and mold it to their whims.... which can be incredibly dangerous.

 

I believe the Constitution does cover todays issue... they are ALL rooted in the sinful, selfish nature of human beings, the desire for more power over the other person, and the desire of the government to own it all or atleast CONTROL it all. Most of the amendments were even obvious... but due ot "lawyer speak", they are added to clarify it since so many struggled with specific issues.

To me, "all men created equal" meant ALL MEN. Hope that makes sense. Oh and men means humans... not males.

 

Mrs. Mungo... nothing in my comments were personal.

 

 

What do you mean the amendments were obvious? The battles may have been hard fought but they certainly were *not* "obvious." Despite an amendment to the Constitution the Civil Rights movement was one that took even longer to fight, to win *equal* rights, not separate but equal. For that matter, there are still lingering effects of those battles where children are NOT treated equally under the law, they do *not* all have the same *opportunities*. I suggest reading Kozol.

 

So, when you say that *to you* "all men were created equal" that meant all humans. In other words, you are claiming you are qualified to *interpret* the Constitution but other people are not. Because that is *certainly* not what was intended by the founders. Only white, male property owners had the vote at that time.

 

eta:

A

GOD BLESS THE UNITED STATES for all her failings there is no place like her. We have our problems, but I will stay with her and do my utmost to support and defend her.

 

One thing that I would never do, could not conceive of, is post a snide comment aimed at belittling my nation. It is not that I have "forgotten" how to do that I was just raised differently so never learned. What you did was not discussion but rather a crass assault on your nation under the guise of debate. Post any figure you will, misrepresent them if you deem it necessary, but what you did should make you ashamed.

 

My apologies, to other posters, for my unpleasantness but the quoted post is outrageous (not necessarily in the statistics but in the attitude). By the way on this Memorial Day weekend let us remember the sacrifice that so many have made for this great nation.

 

Oh dear, now you have done it.

 

Bill was not mocking our great nation, Bill was clearly mocking the attitude of some that our nation is the only one that counts, that our way must be the best because our country is the best. He was clearly mocking the jingoistic attitude of those MANY people who have never been outside of the US (except maybe a brief trip to Mexico) and yet feel qualified to offer opinions on socialized medicine.

 

I lived in Europe for 5 years. I know exactly what socialized medicine looks like. Two of my children were born in *fantastic* German hospitals. I live in a world of socialized medicine still, even here in the US. However, the president is not currently advocating for socialized medicine for all. The president is advocating a national health insurance plan that can cover those *who want it*. If you choose to pay for your HMO instead of the government plan that's your business. Competition is GOOD for businesses and consumers, is it not? (DirtRoad, you are completely misled about the plan currently being promoted, you certainly will have a choice, anyone who says you won't is LYING)

 

You are the one who comes across to me as snide and sneering, not Bill. As far as remembering our veterans and our fallen, that is something I do *every day*. My husband has done two combat tours of duty and *many* shorter trips under the Global War on Terrorism banner. One year I attended 10 military funerals. I am personal friends with several young widows with small children. Don't even get me started on how the government has treated some of them. Being critical of the government and the poor attitudes of some Americans is one of the most American acts we can take on. It is absolutely *necessary* to our growth and ultimate survival as a nation.

Edited May 23, 2009 by Mrs Mungo

[Audrey]

I'm a Canadian living in the US, and I suspect it's even scarier from my position. :ack2: I have an ongoing health issue (nothing terribly serious, just one requiring regular attention) and am constantly reminded of how much I took for granted while in Canada... not to mention hearing horror stories from some of my friends and acquainances. Fortunately, I'm covered under my husband's group plan, as I either would not be accepted under a private plan, or the premiums would be astronomical.

 

 

I'm an ex-american, now Canadian citizen living in Canada. I've seen it from both sides, too. It's not an either/or answer to the problem. It's an issue of do something or do nothing.

 

And, if they're going to do something, they'll need to do it on their own terms, just as every other country has devised its own national system on its own terms.

[WishboneDawn]

I was thinking the same thing. We homeschoolers are against the notion that government should have the monopoly on education. Do we really want the government to have a monopoly on healthcare?

 

Do you really know what universal health care entails? It's very different for every country with UHC but the truth is in Canada at least is that most health is delivered by private health care providers. When I go to my family doctor's practice it's a private practice that probably operates much the same as many private practices in the US. The major difference is simply that every insurance claim she submits goes to the one universal insurer - the government.

 

Of course, that's just one way of delivering UHC. There are many others. What I find strange is that many Americans don't even seem to know that and don't want the discussion to progress to the point where other Americans could look at choices that would work for them. I can't think that's because of the dangers of UHC because if you don't even know how it works how can you define it's dangers? So I'm left thinking it's a discussion carefully guided to protect an interest. That interest being the insurance companies. If the interest was that of ordinary citizens then everything would be on the table to evaluate rather then simply a strawman UHC that seems to act primarily as a boogey-man to keep even the idea of UHC unthinkable.

[sunshine]

Oh, for crying out loud. Is this willful misunderstanding, or what? I think it's a good thing to remember the sacrifice of those who died defending our tomorrows even on days that are not TECHNICALLY Memorial Day. Can we at least agree on that?

 

And what on earth difference does it matter where pqr has lived or is living now? Many--most?--of those whose lives are on the line RIGHT NOW are not in fact in the contiguous 48 states as we speak.

 

Here's a thought: Let's all step away from our keyboards and take a moment today (or you could wait until the official Memorial Day, if you insist) to read "In Flanders Fields." Unless such imperialist, "pro-war" sentiments are repugnant to you. In which case...I got nothin'.

 

 

In Flanders Fields is my favorite poem.