Just to keep the Christian/Non believer issue in perspective

[Alicia64]

Here in No. Cal. we just learned that the police have arrested a female Sunday school teacher for the murder of the little girl in Tracy, Ca:

 

The arrest of a Sunday school teacher Melissa Huckaby, suspected of kidnap and murder in the death of 8-year-old Sandra Cantu, ends the search for the killer of the little girl that has gripped Tracy -- and the nation -- for more than a week, a police spokesman said Saturday.

 

http://cl.exct.net/?ju=fe5a177676630d747514&ls=fe1f1d787461067b721175&m=fefc1172766306&l=fed515747765057c&s=fe211572746d0c7a711c76&jb=ffcf14&t=

 

The only point I'm making is that the kindest, most loving man like my husband who'd give the shirt off his back to someone in need may never be found inside a Church on Sunday morning. But you can find him at the park next door building sand castles with his two boys.

 

And one of my closest friends is a committed Christian and beautiful inside and out.

 

And vice versa to all of this. Being a Christian doesn't necessarily prove that someone is pure of heart.

 

Same goes for gender. It isn't always men who are the embodiment of evil.

 

Please don't take offense at this post; I'm not trying to denigrate either side. I'm again merely saying that good and bad people can be found everywhere. (And yes, I realize that this woman hasn't yet been found guilty in a court of law.)

 

 

Alicia

[6packofun]

And then there's also the question of whether someone who teaches Sunday school and may profess to be a Christian, yet kills a child, is really a follower of Christ at all.

[mom4him]

I agree with you whole heartedly, Alicia.

A little over a year ago our Wed. night Bible study was on how you shouldn't 'be friends' with a non Christian. It was offensive to me. Some of my best friends have not been what many Christians consider 'Christian' because they..............You can fill in the list. Right now one of my most loyal friends is what most people would consider non Christian. She had been a support to me in ways that so go over anything that the people I once thought were my friends would ever do. She isn't doing them to win me over or gain presidence with me, she is just a kind hearted supportive lady who is willing to be honest and open with me.

The honest and open part is something that many, maybe even most Christians can't handle. You should put on this face of happy, all is grand and never let anyone know that it is really different.

I do think we need to be careful about hanging around someone that may lead us down a trail of hurt. I have a niece that is struggling with drinking. She needs to cut off the friends that lead her down that trail.

[Nestof3]

I don't think anyone ever made the statement that Christians were nicer or better than non-Christians. What is this: Christians on trial month or something?

 

And, just because she was at a church doesn't mean she was following Christ.

[Shannon C]

I am a Christian, but I have been friends with many non-Christian people and am related to mostly non Christians. I do believe that you can befriend those of other faiths/no faith. I agree with Sandy, though, my bigger issue is on who your friends are--influence-wise. I have had many struggles in my life and most were due to being introduced to them by my "friends". I want to protect my kids from bad influences, not necessarily those of a different religious perspective.

[*********]

I deleted my post. Apparently, my having an opinion different than others is offensive. I do apologize. That was never my intent.

Edited April 14, 2009 by bethanyniez

[Erica in PA]

I don't think anyone ever made the statement that Christians were nicer or better than non-Christians. What is this: Christians on trial month or something?

 

Yeah, I'm pretty sure the general tone of the board over the past few days has definitely NOT been: Christians are so much better than non-Christians. Quite the opposite, in fact. I am sure you can find at least as many posts, if not more, that are critical of Christians or certain Christians than are positive over the past few days.

[Erica in PA]

I am a Christian, but I have been friends with many non-Christian people and am related to mostly non Christians. I do believe that you can befriend those of other faiths/no faith. I agree with Sandy, though, my bigger issue is on who your friends are--influence-wise. I have had many struggles in my life and most were due to being introduced to them by my "friends". I want to protect my kids from bad influences, not necessarily those of a different religious perspective.

 

I'm half-tempted to take a poll and find out just how many Christians actually avoid being friends with anyone who is not a Christian. It's being discussed and debated on this board as though it's a regular phenomenon, when in reality, I do not know a single Christian who is not friends with non-Christians. :confused:

[mom4him]

I don't think anyone ever made the statement that Christians were nicer or better than non-Christians. What is this: Christians on trial month or something?

 

And, just because she was at a church doesn't mean she was following Christ.

 

I may sound a bit disallussioned but I believe that the Word does hold us as Christians at a little bit higher standard. I don't think we need to judge each other but we do need to examine ourselves when it comes to our treatment of non Christians and Christians.

 

When it comes to whether she was a follower of Christ, I guess this is where I don't think we have the right to judge. It is hard for me to put it into words but I believe that it takes a very little bit to lead us off our path. There are so many things out there that can affect how we begin to think. What was her up bringing. What is she reading. Who is she hanging out with. Is she a follower of Christ? I think I will leave that judgement up to our Heavenly Father. He knows it all.

 

Now, please understand, I know that this was a hainus things. I have an 8 yr old boy and a 9 yr old girl. I can not imagine what I would want to do to someone that would hurt one of them. I do believe this person needs to be tried and judged her on planet earth according to her act. Her place with Jesus I have no right to judge.

 

Can we still be friends?

[Plucky]

I don't think anyone ever made the statement that Christians were nicer or better than non-Christians. What is this: Christians on trial month or something?

 

And, just because she was at a church doesn't mean she was following Christ.[/quote

 

LOL Yeah, it's Christians on trial decade here. Nothing new.

[Hillary in KS]

Hm. Wow. That's an interesting perspective.

 

Let's take this further, then, and look at child killers from - say - the past 10 years. How many of them were professing Christians and Sunday School teachers? How many weren't?

 

This type of "perspective" reminds me of someone dismissing homeschooling because of the out-of-control, illiterate homeschoolers they know vs. their own child who is valedictorian and scored well on her SAT's.

 

What on earth were you trying to accomplish with such a post? To reassure everyone that non-Christians can be nice people too? Please. As if we all don't have enough real examples of nice non-Christians in our daily lives.

[mom4him]

I disagree with this. Christians are sinners just like everyone else, and quite capable of murder and all the other sins of the world. The difference is the "forgiveness factor".

 

:iagree:This is what I was trying to say.

[Peek a Boo]

I disagree with this. Christians are sinners just like everyone else, and quite capable of murder and all the other sins of the world. The difference is the "forgiveness factor".

 

:iagree:

[PiCO]

I think this post and the responses to it really show the worst of this board.

 

Christians- of course people in the minority are going to react strongly when a post calls us "unbelievers", infidels, or some other derogatory name. You may not think it's derogatory, but it feels that way. A long time ago, white people didn't think the "N" word was derogatory either. That doesn't mean it's pick on Christians decade. Especially on a homeschool board where 90% of the people are Christians.

 

Non-Christians- this is a primarily Christian board. Some Christians don't know any non-Christians in real life. Show a little grace, cut them some slack. I bite my toungue on a regular basis here- I just take a deep breath and don't reply for a day or so. Every time I didn't follow my own advise, I have regretted it.

 

I have learned so much from so many people of different beliefs here. I really don't want this to turn into an "us vs. them" place.

[Haiku]

I don't think anyone ever made the statement that Christians were nicer or better than non-Christians.

 

Perhaps not on the TWTM board, but I can assure you that in real life, I have been told this more times than I can count. I suspect that people would say it here if they weren't afraid of being moderated.

 

And while I am uncomfortable with how many subtly anti-Christian posts seem to be cropping up, my personal opinion is that it comes from the frustration of non-Christians who have to deal with religious bias on a daily basis. It's like someone uncapped the well of frustration and it's pouring out now.

 

I can assure you that non-Christians in this country are routinely made to feel less than and immoral. Most of the Christians I know don't throw their self-believed superiority around, but there are enough in this country who do that I think it would be well to be reminded every once in a while that non-Christians can be fabulous, kind, moral people too.

 

Tara

[Friederike in Persia]

I disagree with this. Christians are sinners just like everyone else, and quite capable of murder and all the other sins of the world. The difference is the "forgiveness factor".

 

:iagree:

 

Of course Christians do all sorts of horrible stuff. Have a look at the sermon on the mount (Mtt.5), taking that seriously I have to confess that I've been guilty of murder many times and not just that, lots of other serious offences, too. How can you conceive the idea that Christians wouldn't do such and such???

[astrid]

I agree with you whole heartedly, Alicia.

A little over a year ago our Wed. night Bible study was on how you shouldn't 'be friends' with a non Christian. It was offensive to me.

 

It saddens me greatly to learn that Bible Study groups are actually being taught (or is that not the correct term here?) to not be friends with non-Christians. I just don't know what to say.

 

Astrid

[ConnieB]

(And yes, I realize that this woman hasn't yet been found guilty in a court of law.)

 

 

Alicia

 

 

Update in today's headline is that she came in to the police station of her own accord and after a bit of hedging, admitted that she knew where the killing had taken place (something only the murderer or an eye witness would know...something the police hadn't yet found even...but the police confirmed that "something" occured there, investigation still pending). She hasn't actually confessed yet.....but it does seem at this point that she was at the very least "there" when it happened. Sad, very sad. An earlier report said she was the daughter of a pastor, now they're saying granddaughter.

 

But I agree totally with you......in my former line of work (law enforcement and then lawyer) I saw a LOT of people of all (or no) religion who are not the kind of folks I would associate with outside of the office but who were well regarded in the community. The facade that people put out in front of the world can often be VERY VERY convincing, but the reality is that behind closed doors they are not what the world believes them to be. The headlines are constantly full of them, Christian or otherwise. Former Presidents, religious leaders (not exclusively Christian faiths either), celebrities who previously were considered "above" the decadance of Hollywood, etc.

 

Christians simply have a well known, written and oft quoted set of standards that they consider the ideal goal to reach. I don't think you have to be Christian to agree with a lot of the attributes that are often called "Christian behavior". In fact, I would consider them more "decent human" behavior. The thing I find ironic....Christians will be quick to point out that these are ideal goals...and that as sinners they know that they will occasionally fail.......but when others who are not Christians occaisonally fail, it's somehow worse than when a Christian fails. Don't get me wrong, I still consider myself Christian despite not going to church for a few years.....mostly my problem with church has been the hypocrisy.

 

Human behavior (all humans, regardless of age, color, bank account status, religion, or favorite music) fail to be the ideal. But, hopefully, the good humans keep trying to improve. The others are just scary people.

[KidsHappen]

I have learned so much from so many people of different beliefs here. I really don't want this to turn into an "us vs. them" place.

 

:iagree: I think that for the most part these discussions have been remarkably civil and I know that every time we have them I learn a little bit more. So much better than some of the political discussions. I hope that I personally have not been responsible for bashing Christians as that was not my intent at all. I was simply trying to respectfully share my POV as a non-Christian and I think that most people on both sides have been trying to do the same. Yes, there is a little tension and conflict but I think that is to be expected when discussing topics that are so important and relavant to our lives. I know that any time religion has come up on this board (well, for as long as I have been here - 6 or 7 years) that sometimes feathers get a little ruffled but we always move on and come back together on other issues. I hope that we can continue to do this.

[TN Mama]

nt

Edited April 12, 2009 by TN Mama
pointless

[mom4him]

This has been a pretty heated discussion. I would like to add a side to this thread.

Have you ever known someone that has done something that is just aweful? Really aweful, like murder someone by choice, molest a child etc. I hadn't until a little over a year ago.

My oldest son works for our chuch/church school. He came home one day last spring with such a sad, horiffic happening. One of the families in our church had adopted a child overseas. They have had this child now for 4-5 yrs. It came out that the father in this family had been molesting this child for the last couple of years.

This is a man that had been active with Childrens Church, faithful in coming and getting his family to church, prominent in the community, active with youth sports(they have 3 other children).

I was in shock. How could this be, how could it happen, how could such a nice guy get so demented. I don't know the answers to any of these questions. I do know that he turned himself in, has repented, got himself into counciling before he was sentenced(10 yrs, 6 with good behavior). I still struggle with it.

I don't believe what he did says that he isn't a follower of Christ or that in the site of God he is condemned. We truly all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. When I start to get angry at him all over again I have to question myself, "Have I ever done something wrong? Have I ever lied, disliked a person(hate-in the Word it says this is the same as murder)." You can go down the list.

I guess the thing that I am trying to say is God looks at the repentant heart. As a people we deal with the physical and dole out the ramifications for the actions(rightfully so).

My goal isn't to offend anyone but to help everyone to look beyond through Gods eyes.

I with a previous poster had to look at the families both of the little girl and the young women that commited this act. I pray that our Father God helps them all get through this.

[PiCO]

When I start to get angry at him all over again I have to question myself, "Have I ever done something wrong? Have I ever lied, disliked a person(hate-in the Word it says this is the same as murder)." You can go down the list.

 

I don't think you can compare lying or hating someone with molesting a child. I hope the man gets what's coming to him in prison. An eye for an eye and all that.

[*********]

-

Edited April 14, 2009 by bethanyniez
I never should have entered into the discussion.

[Alicia64]

My reason for posting this issue was misunderstood.

 

I was responding to an original poster who said that she knew many Christians who wouldn't be friends with non believers.

 

I thought that was sad.

 

I was merely trying to point out that even people who are non believers can be wonderful people -- and vice versa.

 

I don't know how more plainly to state this. This was not meant to be a post saying Christians are bad. That would be ludicrous.

 

Please make an attempt to understand my words -- that Christians can be friends with non believers and in most cases may find loving and wonderful people in the non believer camp.

 

Alicia

[Impish]

Only statement I'm going to make on this is that I'm GLAD that there are Christians who are friends with people who are 'non Christians'.

 

If it wasn't for them, I wouldn't have found my way back to Christ. :001_smile:

[Karen sn]

2 words: capital punishment.

[TammyinTN]

This is what I was gonna say. Actual followers of Christ do not kill other people. Period. Many, MANY people claim the label of 'Christian'. That does not make it so.

 

Your blanket statement absolutely outrages me. You see I'm married to a US soldier and they must do what must be done to protect our freedom so that we can all sit in our little corners of the US and type out our little mindless replies. Even if that means taking out the bad guys...surely you must not mind all the precious freedoms you have and the people who had to be killed for you keep them, right?

[Pink Fairy]

Your blanket statement absolutely outrages me. You see I'm married to a US soldier and they must do what must be done to protect our freedom so that we can all sit in our little corners of the US and type out our little mindless replies. Even if that means taking out the bad guys...surely you must not mind all the precious freedoms you have and the people who had to be killed for you keep them, right?

 

A better word choice would have been "murder." It doesn't reflect on people who kill in self defense, or in just wars. I can understand why you are sensitive about the difference. :grouphug:

[*********]

-

Edited April 14, 2009 by bethanyniez
I never should have entered into the discussion.

[Peek a Boo]

OK.

 

Good thing we don't have to agree. :) Everyone who didn't like my statement that Christians don't kill people might want to look up the ten commandments.

 

I'm done discussing it. We don't have to agree. Have a nice day. :001_smile:

 

Look it up: There is no one righteous: no, not one.

 

Being a Christian doesn't mean you are capable of not breaking the commandments. Christians are capable of lying, falling into idolatry, adultery, lust, coveting, and dishonoring their parents because we are all sinners.

You might want to look THAT up.

 

Being a Christian means you have placed your salvation in God's hands, not your own. There's not much of a difference between a Christian striving for an ideal and a Christian that has failed to meet that ideal.

[sleepy]

Your blanket statement absolutely outrages me. You see I'm married to a US soldier and they must do what must be done to protect our freedom so that we can all sit in our little corners of the US and type out our little mindless replies. Even if that means taking out the bad guys...surely you must not mind all the precious freedoms you have and the people who had to be killed for you keep them, right?

 

:grouphug: Tammy :grouphug: Words cannot adequately express how thankful I am for your husband, for all of our servicemen, and all that they do.

[Peek a Boo]

A better word choice would have been "murder." It doesn't reflect on people who kill in self defense, or in just wars. I can understand why you are sensitive about the difference. :grouphug:

 

actually, murder is the intentional killing of another person, without respect to wars or self defense. The only difference is that legally we recognize justifications for murder and call it homicide: same thing, different consequences in our court system.

 

I have to agree with bethany on freedoms in Christ vs freedoms won by killing other people. But that does seem like fodder for another thread.

[Pink Fairy]

To the OP:

 

Maybe your intention was just to educate all of us on how the title of Christian doesn't make you better than anyone else. Enlightening. But I'd hardly say that kidnapping and murdering children is typical behavior for 99.99% of the population, Christian or not. :confused:

 

Would you have posted in the same way if the woman had been an atheist? A Jew? A Muslim? Or would that be unnecessary, since you've figured out that all of us Christians secretly think we're better than everyone else.

[Haiku]

Being a Christian means you have placed your salvation in God's hands, not your own.

 

That's a really good explanation of Christianity. Thanks, Peek! :)

 

Tara

[lynn]

Thanks peek.

Edited April 12, 2009 by lynn

[Plucky]

I don't think you can compare lying or hating someone with molesting a child. I hope the man gets what's coming to him in prison. An eye for an eye and all that.

 

I agree. I don't think being angry at the man is at all wrong. There is nothing wrong with righteous anger and I think it's Biblical.

[Plucky]

Here in No. Cal. we just learned that the police have arrested a female Sunday school teacher for the murder of the little girl in Tracy, Ca:

 

The arrest of a Sunday school teacher Melissa Huckaby, suspected of kidnap and murder in the death of 8-year-old Sandra Cantu, ends the search for the killer of the little girl that has gripped Tracy -- and the nation -- for more than a week, a police spokesman said Saturday.

 

http://cl.exct.net/?ju=fe5a177676630d747514&ls=fe1f1d787461067b721175&m=fefc1172766306&l=fed515747765057c&s=fe211572746d0c7a711c76&jb=ffcf14&t=

 

The only point I'm making is that the kindest, most loving man like my husband who'd give the shirt off his back to someone in need may never be found inside a Church on Sunday morning. But you can find him at the park next door building sand castles with his two boys.

 

And one of my closest friends is a committed Christian and beautiful inside and out.

 

And vice versa to all of this. Being a Christian doesn't necessarily prove that someone is pure of heart.

 

Same goes for gender. It isn't always men who are the embodiment of evil.

 

Please don't take offense at this post; I'm not trying to denigrate either side. I'm again merely saying that good and bad people can be found everywhere. (And yes, I realize that this woman hasn't yet been found guilty in a court of law.)

 

 

Alicia

 

 

Alicia, I know you didn't mean for it come across negatively but it was kind of condescending. I am friends with all kinds of people regardless of their religion or nonreligion. I'm even friends with people of different political persuasions. I like to have friends that have common interests and values and those people can be found in all walks of life. I don't think I'm special so the idea that the majority of Christians are avoiding non-Christians is not very accurate.

 

Yes, you're going to run into Christians that are cliquey. I've run into non-Christians (usually anti-Christians) that are cliquey. There are some Christians that are too legalistic that I prefer to avoid, just like over the top Non-Christians trying to make a point everywhere they go that annoy me and I avoid. People are people.

[Debbie in OR]

:grouphug: Tammy :grouphug: Words cannot adequately express how thankful I am for your husband, for all of our servicemen, and all that they do.

 

 

Me, too! :grouphug:

[HRAAB]

This is what I was gonna say. Actual followers of Christ do not kill other people. Period. Many, MANY people claim the label of 'Christian'. That does not make it so.

 

As a Christian do you not believe that all people are affected by original sin? A fallen nature? Once you accept Christ, does that mean you are no longer subject to a sin nature? That from that point on, you will no longer be subject to your imperfect humanity?

 

Janet

[KidsHappen]

People are people.

 

:iagree: You took the words right out of my mouth.

[bella_gitana]

I disagree with this. Christians are sinners just like everyone else, and quite capable of murder and all the other sins of the world. The difference is the "forgiveness factor".

:iagree:

[Nestof3]

Perhaps not on the TWTM board, but I can assure you that in real life, I have been told this more times than I can count. I suspect that people would say it here if they weren't afraid of being moderated.

 

And while I am uncomfortable with how many subtly anti-Christian posts seem to be cropping up, my personal opinion is that it comes from the frustration of non-Christians who have to deal with religious bias on a daily basis. It's like someone uncapped the well of frustration and it's pouring out now.

 

I can assure you that non-Christians in this country are routinely made to feel less than and immoral. Most of the Christians I know don't throw their self-believed superiority around, but there are enough in this country who do that I think it would be well to be reminded every once in a while that non-Christians can be fabulous, kind, moral people too.

 

Tara

 

Tara,

 

We must really live in totally different places, because outside of the people I know well, I have utterly no idea what religion anyone else holds to. I also don't have a single friend who is a Christian that throws her superiority around or who thinks that non-Christians just run around doing immoral things all day. My mom is a non-Christian, and she is one of the nicest people I know.

 

You might meet a Christian who won't participate in something because it dishonors God, but I hope no one is taking that as throwing superiority around. I'm assuming all religions have certain things forbidden to its followers.

 

I just don't need to be reminded that non-Christians can be nice -- I let individual people prove that for themselves.

 

I've also seen so many comments like: I cannot believe she acted that way -- and she professes to be a Christian. Some people have the idea that when a person becomes a Christian, they are incapable of sinning or missing the mark. I never hear anyone say, "And she's an athiest too -- you think she'd do better." Or what about, "And she's Buddhist, I cannot believe she would treat her that way."

 

So, it seems some non-Christians have higher expectations from Christians. Christianity is a faith we Christians cling to -- it doesn't make us act perfect.

 

As for feeling on the outside, I've seen this in many areas of life. I've been around people who make me feel like if I don't have a fake tan, get Botox treatments, wear expensive clothing, and am married to a white-collared man, I am nothing.

Edited April 13, 2009 by nestof3

[LisaNY]

Look it up: There is no one righteous: no, not one.

 

Being a Christian doesn't mean you are capable of not breaking the commandments. Christians are capable of lying, falling into idolatry, adultery, lust, coveting, and dishonoring their parents because we are all sinners.

You might want to look THAT up.

 

Being a Christian means you have placed your salvation in God's hands, not your own. There's not much of a difference between a Christian striving for an ideal and a Christian that has failed to meet that ideal.

 

:iagree:

[unsinkable]

Update in today's headline is that she came in to the police station of her own accord and after a bit of hedging, admitted that she knew where the killing had taken place (something only the murderer or an eye witness would know...something the police hadn't yet found even...but the police confirmed that "something" occured there, investigation still pending). She hasn't actually confessed yet.....but it does seem at this point that she was at the very least "there" when it happened. Sad, very sad. An earlier report said she was the daughter of a pastor, now they're saying granddaughter.

 

But I agree totally with you......in my former line of work (law enforcement and then lawyer) I saw a LOT of people of all (or no) religion who are not the kind of folks I would associate with outside of the office but who were well regarded in the community. The facade that people put out in front of the world can often be VERY VERY convincing, but the reality is that behind closed doors they are not what the world believes them to be. The headlines are constantly full of them, Christian or otherwise. Former Presidents, religious leaders (not exclusively Christian faiths either), celebrities who previously were considered "above" the decadance of Hollywood, etc.

 

Christians simply have a well known, written and oft quoted set of standards that they consider the ideal goal to reach. I don't think you have to be Christian to agree with a lot of the attributes that are often called "Christian behavior". In fact, I would consider them more "decent human" behavior. The thing I find ironic....Christians will be quick to point out that these are ideal goals...and that as sinners they know that they will occasionally fail.......but when others who are not Christians occaisonally fail, it's somehow worse than when a Christian fails. Don't get me wrong, I still consider myself Christian despite not going to church for a few years.....mostly my problem with church has been the hypocrisy.

 

Human behavior (all humans, regardless of age, color, bank account status, religion, or favorite music) fail to be the ideal. But, hopefully, the good humans keep trying to improve. The others are just scary people.

 

Connie,

 

I appreciate your points!

 

Considering your background -- do you get the feeling that there more going on here that meets the eye with the murder of this poor little girl? I am thinking there is some kind of $*x abuse situtation. I just think there is more than a murder.

[Nestof3]

My reason for posting this issue was misunderstood.

 

I was responding to an original poster who said that she knew many Christians who wouldn't be friends with non believers.

 

I thought that was sad.

 

I was merely trying to point out that even people who are non believers can be wonderful people -- and vice versa.

 

I don't know how more plainly to state this. This was not meant to be a post saying Christians are bad. That would be ludicrous.

 

Please make an attempt to understand my words -- that Christians can be friends with non believers and in most cases may find loving and wonderful people in the non believer camp.

 

Alicia

 

I understand, and I agree. But, I don't look for a person's religious affiliation to prove to me that they are people I want to spend my time with or entrust my children to. I look at the fruit -- the person. For my boys, if the other children are mouthy, have a general negative/apathetic disposition, treat their parents like aliens, and bully others, we avoid them. I also will not allow my children to play inside another person's house while the other children play violent video games or while the mom belly-dances in her bikini top.

 

For my own friendships, I will not befriend people who spout vulgarities, who enjoy discussing what I deem immoral behavior, who demean others, who are racists, etc. I will be kind to people, but not seek out friendship. It's all about the person.

 

With Christians, there have been things we have had to decline to participate in -- a pool party is one that comes to mind.

[Peek a Boo]

I've also seen so many comments like: I cannot believe she acted that way -- and she professes to be a Christian. Some people have the idea that when a person becomes a Christian, they are incapable of sinning or missing the mark. I never hear anyone say, "And she's an athiest too -- you think she'd do better." Or what about, "And she's Buddhist, I cannot believe she would treat her that way."

 

So, it seems some non-Christians have higher expectations from Christians. Christianity is a faith we Christians cling to -- it doesn't make us act perfect.

 

 

 

Christians simply have a well known, written and oft quoted set of standards that they consider the ideal goal to reach. I don't think you have to be Christian to agree with a lot of the attributes that are often called "Christian behavior". In fact, I would consider them more "decent human" behavior. The thing I find ironic....Christians will be quick to point out that these are ideal goals...and that as sinners they know that they will occasionally fail.......but when others who are not Christians occaisonally fail, it's somehow worse than when a Christian fails. Don't get me wrong, I still consider myself Christian despite not going to church for a few years.....mostly my problem with church has been the hypocrisy.

 

I find these two posts to be the crux of the debate:

Connie notes that many times Christians consider those who are not Christian to be somehow worse, but Dawn notes that it's often the secular world that holds Christians to some expected form of higher behavior.

 

I have often noted that many people -not just Christians- will prioritize different sins: white lies vs murder, pedophilia vs adultery, etc. Of course Christians would be deemed hypocritical by definition:

ANY Christian is automatically a hypocrite whether you attend a church or not.

 

Paul:

I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me.

 

Sinatra:

do be do be do.

 

For Christians, our reputation in the world is often a lose-lose scenario. But Christ warned us about that.

[Haiku]

So, it seems some non-Christians have higher expectations from Christians.

 

The only thing that I expect from Christians is that they not use Christianity as a litmus test to judge whether I am a moral person. Unfortunately, it routinely happens. I don't expect Christians to be "better people" just because they are Christians, nor do I expect them to be worse. Ime, however, some Christians take the attitude that I am a less moral person only because I am not a Christian.

 

Tara

[Jenny in Florida]

We must really live in totally different places, because outside of the people I know well, I have utterly no idea what religion anyone else holds to. I also don't have a single friend who is a Christian that throws her superiority around or who thinks that non-Christians just run around doing immoral things all day.

 

Well, I must live in the same "place" as Tara. It's not every Christian by any means--and as I've said elsewhere, we have many Christians in our social circle--but we've certainly experienced our share of shunning because we don't go to the right church.

 

And, although I almost never bring it up, I'm well aware of the religious affiliations of many of the folks we know.

 

And, yes, there is certainly a certain "holier than thou" attitude emanating from some of the Christian people we run into. Now, I suppose it could be argured that they ARE holier than we, according to a specific definition . . .

[Jenny in Florida]

And, just because she was at a church doesn't mean she was following Christ.

 

True, but it does make me wonder just how folks who choose to do most of their socializing through avowedly Christian organizations feel about this sort of thing? I mean, I assume that those who make these choices in order to keep their kids safe/supported/etc. are not actually looking into the hearts of all of the other people who participate? So, if a group is "Christian" because you have to act like a Christian on the outside and maybe sign a statement of faith, but there's no way of telling whether each individual is actually "following Christ," what's the advantage?

 

And, to turn this around and relate it to some of the other conversations we've been having around here lately: If someone can go through the profess Christianity and not "really" be one because of how they act, how do we account for people who don't profess to be Christians but live by a strict moral/ethical code that has them living like a Christian? Is one saved and the other ****ed?

 

Lots to ponder . . .

[Peek a Boo]

The only thing that I expect from Christians is that they not use Christianity as a litmus test to judge whether I am a moral person. Unfortunately, it routinely happens. I don't expect Christians to be "better people" just because they are Christians, nor do I expect them to be worse. Ime, however, some Christians take the attitude that I am a less moral person only because I am not a Christian.

 

Tara

 

I understand that some people don't do that, but I see different versions of the phrase "supposedly Christian" tossed around quite a bit- by Christians AND non-Christians. ;)