My SIL is accusing me

[Faith-manor]

11 minutes ago, KungFuPanda said:

I’d bet money he didn’t have that clause at all but just didn’t want that craziness around his kids. 

I would bet dollars to doughnuts on this one!

[Drama Llama]

I don't think so, he seemed pretty shocked when he saw how she interacted with the kids, but he'd already told her about that rule before that happened.

[SKL]

12 hours ago, Drama Llama said:

He can drive now, and can drive his brother.  In about a week he'll be able to drive his cousins. 

But, I'm not sure I understand how that connects to this issue at all.

If your sons can get themselves to family events etc., then they could still have their family [his side] interactions, without you needing to attend where it's uncomfortable for you.  They could go pick up the cousins rather than having the parents meet privately and potentially fuel rumors.

Edited July 2 by SKL

[regentrude]

I am very sorry you are dealing with this.

I disagree with some previous posters: I do not think you need to alter your behavior and give up the friendship with BIL! What's important is that your family knows that it's not true. Anybody else needs to mind their own business. You have no control over what SIL says to DH, or over what he chooses to believe, and I don't think anything you do can ward off her crazy. Do you have immediate safety concerns if she were talking to him?

As far as court, I can't imagine a judge believing her fabrications. I doubt they are in the business of investigating who has relationships with whom. Her saying so can hardly be actionable. 

Edited July 2 by regentrude

[Faith-manor]

Llama, I am agreeing with Rosie and Regentrude. Sil is one wicked woman. She won't back down even if you twisted yourself into knots over this. She will just think of some new way to make you miserable, or try to do so. You and bil are going through a lot of crap, and you need the friendship and family relationship. It is notable that Pops is NOT supporting her, and Pops seems to be a pretty amazing guy. Let her rot. Keep a journal of everything she does, screen shots of texts and emails, record the phone calls or have her on speaker phone when others are in the room. Bil may need this at some point in the future. But otherwise, just maintain that friendship. These children are your children's cousins, and they don't need the weirdness of yet another strained relationship and familial oddity created because their mother's Mad Bitch Syndrome was allowed to rule over everyone.

I have seen this. My sil, brother's 2nd wife, is sooooo much like your sil. The consequences of everyone for years bending their relationships and behavior to suit her manipulation and deceit has had devastating consequences. If all of us could take a time machine and go back to when they married, we would start with refusing to allow her games to have any affect on how we maintained our own extended family relationships. We would have stood up to her and told her to pound sand. It is a huge regret!

[Drama Llama]

49 minutes ago, regentrude said:

 Do you have immediate safety concerns if she were talking to him?

The immediate concern would be him hurting himself, concerns about the kids’ safety or BIL or my safety aren’t immediate.

49 minutes ago, regentrude said:

As far as court, I can't imagine a judge believing her fabrications. I doubt they are in the business of investigating who has relationships with whom. Her saying so can hardly be actionable. 

 

[Drama Llama]

2 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

Llama, I am agreeing with Rosie and Regentrude. Sil is one wicked woman. She won't back down even if you twisted yourself into knots over this. She will just think of some new way to make you miserable, or try to do so. You and bil are going through a lot of crap, and you need the friendship and family relationship. It is notable that Pops is NOT supporting her, and Pops seems to be a pretty amazing guy. Let her rot. Keep a journal of everything she does, screen shots of texts and emails, record the phone calls or have her on speaker phone when others are in the room. Bil may need this at some point in the future. But otherwise, just maintain that friendship. These children are your children's cousins, and they don't need the weirdness of yet another strained relationship and familial oddity created because their mother's Mad Bitch Syndrome was allowed to rule over everyone.

I have seen this. My sil, brother's 2nd wife, is sooooo much like your sil. The consequences of everyone for years bending their relationships and behavior to suit her manipulation and deceit has had devastating consequences. If all of us could take a time machine and go back to when they married, we would start with refusing to allow her games to have any affect on how we maintained our own extended family relationships. We would have stood up to her and told her to pound sand. It is a huge regret!

Pop passed away last winter.  But he would not approve.  

[Faith-manor]

7 minutes ago, Drama Llama said:

Pop passed away last winter.  But he would not approve.  

Oh, I am so sorry to hear that! May he rest in peace. I am so sorry for your loss.

[maize]

I also agree that you should not start tip-toe-ing around BIL and adjusting the way you relate to him because of SIL. SIL is not a sane person, her accusations are not rooted in you behavior. They are rooted in her mind, and nothing you do can change that. Your interactions with BIL are perfectly respectable. He is your friend, the father of your children's cousins, and that is a good and valuable relationship to maintain.

Regarding your dh; do you speak with him much these days? Is there someone in the family who you trust who could speak with him whose words he might believe? Someone who could give him a heads-up that SIL is making these false accusations and that there is zero truth behind them, and remind him that you take the sacramental vows of marriage seriously? My thinking is inoculate him in advance against her lies. 

I don't know if that would be helpful or not, but it is something I would consider.

Navigating around irrationality and paranoia is really hard because it is an ever-shifting landscape with no rules.

Edited July 2 by maize

[Innisfree]

No advice, just wanted to say that I’m sorry you’re dealing with this. I agree with others that your friendship with BIL is important to preserve, whatever SIL does. 

[Catwoman]

Not for anything, but even if you and BIL were attracted to each other, you are both legally separated.

SIL has no say in who BIL or you can date, and because your kids are all related to each other, the concept that BIL couldn't introduce his kids to a romantic partner wouldn't even apply if you and he were to start dating.

I'm not saying you should start dating BIL, but I don't think you have anything at all to worry about in terms of remaining close friends.

[regentrude]

2 hours ago, Drama Llama said:

The immediate concern would be him hurting himself, concerns about the kids’ safety or BIL or my safety aren’t immediate.

 

I am sorry. But nothing you do has any guarantee that your SIL doesn't spread lies. It's frustrating,  but you can't control what she says, and you can't control your DHs reaction; they are responsible.

[Catwoman]

On 6/30/2024 at 6:03 PM, Drama Llama said:

Even if it doesn't impact custody, I don't want my husband told I'm being unfaithful.  I also don't want my neighbors, or my religious community, or my kids' friends parents to think that I would do that.  

I think most women wouldn't want that.  

I think you are worrying too much about what other people will think, when I'm pretty sure most of the people who are close to you and/or BIL will realize that your SIL is a vindictive loon, anyway.

You and your husband are separated, so I'm not sure why you're so worried that he will think you are unfaithful, but there's really nothing you can do if he chooses to believe your crazy SIL over you and BIL. For all you know, your SIL could be telling him that you're already secretly dating a dozen men. 

Also, most people just aren't going to care that much if two legally separated people are dating or if they are just friends. Legally separated people date -- and it's not like your SIL isn't dating, so she's just going to come across as a wackadoodle, jealous hypocrite if she makes accusations against you and BIL.

Please try not to let this get to you. Your SIL wins when you let her get under your skin. 

 

[bolt.]

1 hour ago, Catwoman said:

I think you are worrying too much about what other people will think, when I'm pretty sure most of the people who are close to you and/or BIL will realize that your SIL is a vindictive loon, anyway.

You and your husband are separated, so I'm not sure why you're so worried that he will think you are unfaithful, but there's really nothing you can do if he chooses to believe your crazy SIL over you and BIL. For all you know, your SIL could be telling him that you're already secretly dating a dozen men. 

Also, most people just aren't going to care that much if two legally separated people are dating or if they are just friends. Legally separated people date -- and it's not like your SIL isn't dating, so she's just going to come across as a wackadoodle, jealous hypocrite if she makes accusations against you and BIL.

Please try not to let this get to you. Your SIL wins when you let her get under your skin. 

 

While all of this is true, it's my understanding that our Llama has an extraordinary sense of honour and a deep connection to her marital vows in terms of herself having a sacramental relationship to the vow itself, regardless of her relationship with her separated husband. Therefore she considers herself bound permanently by her own word to either chastity or possible (far-future-many-changes) reconciliation. It is only on these terms that she can think of herself as a good person in spite of her separation, because separation itself suggests that she might have more modern or more secular views of marriages and sacred vows. I also think she retains a deep dedication to do as much good, and as little harm as possible to her estranged and deeply unwell husband -- while also prioritizing her kids' and her own safety and wellbeing.

It has been a balancing act for her, involving deep personal ethics and a solution (legal separation with a no-contact order) that, if I'm remembering correctly, was only barely acceptable at first.

Therefore we can really see that while ordinary people might date when they are legally separated, and might eventually consider divorce and the possibility that future relationships might lead to a second marriage -- those things are unimaginably unethical for Llama.

So, even though bystanders might not be the slightest bit scandalized by this rumor about two legally separated people (and it's good that Llama knows that people are generally unfazed, and she need not anticipate a public shaming if the rumor is believed), it's also true that it has been hard work for Llama to find a way to consider herself faithful, true, and honourble in this situation. Having found a road that she can walk down without considering herself a moral failure, and having committed herself to it for a lifetime, and having disciplined herself to follow it so far -- the suggestion that she might be publicly believed to be doing the opposite is a truly deep wound.

She cares whether 'people' believe she is living up to her *own* ethical standards, not whether they themselves would or wouldn't impose any such standard on her.

Llama: The bit you need to hear is, yes, anybody who knows you will easily disbelieve a rumor that you are dating anyone right now.

You also need to know that you truly have done everything you can to do your separated husband as much good and as little harm as possible. This rumor may harm him. However, it's important that you know that even though this rumor is about you (you are the topic) that doesn't mean that this rumor is something you are doing. You have done nothing to invite it into your life, or into his life. The rumor is totally someone else's doing, and 100% their moral responsibility. You are only the topic, not the actor, in this situation. If your separated husband falls into self harm, it will be because his sister pushed his buttons, not because you did anything wrong, not because you neglected to do anything that might have helped.

[Catwoman]

3 minutes ago, bolt. said:

While all of this is true, it's my understanding that our Llama has an extraordinary sense of honour and a deep connection to her marital vows in terms of herself having a sacramental relationship to the vow itself, regardless of her relationship with her separated husband. Therefore she considers herself bound permanently by her own word to either chastity or possible (far-future-many-changes) reconciliation. It is only on these terms that she can think of herself as a good person in spite of her separation, because separation itself suggests that she might have more modern or more secular views of marriages and sacred vows. I also think she retains a deep dedication to do as much good, and as little harm as possible to her estranged and deeply unwell husband -- while also prioritizing her kids' and her own safety and wellbeing.

It has been a balancing act for her, involving deep personal ethics and a solution (legal separation with a no-contact order) that, if I'm remembering correctly, was only barely acceptable at first.

Therefore we can really see that while ordinary people might date when they are legally separated, and might eventually consider divorce and the possibility that future relationships might lead to a second marriage -- those things are unimaginably unethical for Llama.

So, even though bystanders might not be the slightest bit scandalized by this rumor about two legally separated people (and it's good that Llama knows that people are generally unfazed, and she need not anticipate a public shaming if the rumor is believed), it's also true that it has been hard work for Llama to find a way to consider herself faithful, true, and honourble in this situation. Having found a road that she can walk down without considering herself a moral failure, and having committed herself to it for a lifetime, and having disciplined herself to follow it so far -- the suggestion that she might be publicly believed to be doing the opposite is a truly deep wound.

She cares whether 'people' believe she is living up to her *own* ethical standards, not whether they themselves would or wouldn't impose any such standard on her.

Llama: The bit you need to hear is, yes, anybody who knows you will easily disbelieve a rumor that you are dating anyone right now.

You also need to know that you truly have done everything you can to do your separated husband as much good and as little harm as possible. This rumor may harm him. However, it's important that you know that even though this rumor is about you (you are the topic) that doesn't mean that this rumor is something you are doing. You have done nothing to invite it into your life, or into his life. The rumor is totally someone else's doing, and 100% their moral responsibility. You are only the topic, not the actor, in this situation. If your separated husband falls into self harm, it will be because his sister pushed his buttons, not because you did anything wrong, not because you neglected to do anything that might have helped.

 

The problem here is that Llama has absolutely no control over what her SIL says or does. She has no control over what the public thinks or says about her (although realistically, most people don't really care.) 

The only thing she can control is her own reaction and her own response to what her SIL and other people say and do. 

She can choose to be scandalized and worry about what other people think about SIL's accusations, or she can hold her head high and behave as she always has, and assume that if people are idiotic enough to believe what SIL says over what they know to be true about the personal integrity and decency of both Llama and her BIL, they don't deserve a moment of her concern. And if they don't know her or her BIL well enough to know that they are good people, who cares what they think or say, anyway? Their opinions mean nothing.

I also don't think she should waste her time worrying about how any of this will affect her husband, because again, she can't control how he feels, and it's not her responsibility to worry about her estranged husband hearing and/or believing false rumors his sister tells him. 

Basically, I think she should live her life the way she wants to live it, and if her SIL or a few local gossips want to talk trash about her, so be it. 

I'm not trying to be unsympathetic, but reality is reality, and if Llama is truly planning to live for years and years to come like this (separated but not divorced,) people are going to speculate about it from time to time, so the sooner she can ignore them and not look for affirmation or validation from others, and the more easily she is able to ignore any negative comments or rumors, the happier she will be. The only person she needs to be true to, is herself.

The words I have to describe both Llama's husband and his sister aren't fit for a public forum, so please know that I completely support her in this situation -- but it's because I support her that I want to encourage her to try to find a way to stop letting these things upset and worry her so much. Anyone who worries too much about what other people are thinking about them will never be truly content or happy.

 

[Bambam]

50 minutes ago, bolt. said:

 

You also need to know that you truly have done everything you can to do your separated husband as much good and as little harm as possible. This rumor may harm him. However, it's important that you know that even though this rumor is about you (you are the topic) that doesn't mean that this rumor is something you are doing. You have done nothing to invite it into your life, or into his life. The rumor is totally someone else's doing, and 100% their moral responsibility. You are only the topic, not the actor, in this situation. If your separated husband falls into self harm, it will be because his sister pushed his buttons, not because you did anything wrong, not because you neglected to do anything that might have helped.

I think Bolt has hit out of the ball park with this. You've done everything you can. 
You have someone else causing trouble, and you cannot control this individual. 
And that stinks.  And I'm sorry this is happening to you. 

[Drama Llama]

4 hours ago, Catwoman said:

 

You and your husband are separated, so I'm not sure why you're so worried that he will think you are unfaithful,

 

Because in the past, when he has been jealous or angry or held delusional beliefs about my behavior, my children have been hurt and placed in danger, and this is a lie that has the potential to intensify those feelings and beliefs.

When I say there is not an immediate danger to BIL and his children or me and mine, that's because right now he is being held involuntarily.  But that hold won't last indefinitely.  

Please do not quote.  I will delete this.  

[kbutton]

I really wish someone could remove your SIL’s access to your DH.

Are there organizations out there who suggest best practices for situations like these that offer some guidance and support besides what your family and the hive have been able to come up with? 

I’m sorry this is such a hamster wheel of crazy.

 

[Faith-manor]

Llama, since you are still married, do you retain any POA over him? Since he under involuntary hold, do you or BIL make medical decisions for him, legal decisions? I am wondering if it would be possible to cut dh off from communication with his sister. She is clearly a dangerous person since she does not care if she riles him up or not, and doesn't consider the consequences.

[Drama Llama]

13 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

Llama, since you are still married, do you retain any POA over him? Since he under involuntary hold, do you or BIL make medical decisions for him, legal decisions?

No.

13 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

I am wondering if it would be possible to cut dh off from communication with his sister. She is clearly a dangerous person since she does not care if she riles him up or not, and doesn't consider the consequences.

I don't actually know if she has contact him.  But I am pretty sure that if the rumor spreads, it will make it to people who do have contact.  

[chocolate-chip chooky]

8 hours ago, Drama Llama said:

Pop passed away last winter.  But he would not approve.  

Oh my.  I didn't know this. I'm so so sorry. 

Pop was clearly such a kind and wonderful man. 

🌻

[Drama Llama]

4 hours ago, bolt. said:

While all of this is true, it's my understanding that our Llama has an extraordinary sense of honour and a deep connection to her marital vows in terms of herself having a sacramental relationship to the vow itself, regardless of her relationship with her separated husband. Therefore she considers herself bound permanently by her own word to either chastity or possible (far-future-many-changes) reconciliation. It is only on these terms that she can think of herself as a good person in spite of her separation, because separation itself suggests that she might have more modern or more secular views of marriages and sacred vows. I also think she retains a deep dedication to do as much good, and as little harm as possible to her estranged and deeply unwell husband -- while also prioritizing her kids' and her own safety and wellbeing.

No, I believe my marriage could end.  But until ours ends, then we're married.  At this point, he is not well enough that we can realistically divorce or seek an annulment.  Things could change, and we could end up divorced and seek an annulment, but at this moment I'm married.  

And no, I will never seek to hurt him.  I have hurt him.  My choice to separate myself hurt him deeply, but I didn't do that with the intention of hurting him, I did that to protect my kids.  

4 hours ago, bolt. said:

It has been a balancing act for her, involving deep personal ethics and a solution (legal separation with a no-contact order) that, if I'm remembering correctly, was only barely acceptable at first.

Therefore we can really see that while ordinary people might date when they are legally separated, and might eventually consider divorce and the possibility that future relationships might lead to a second marriage -- those things are unimaginably unethical for Llama.

No, that's not how I feel at all. 

4 hours ago, bolt. said:

So, even though bystanders might not be the slightest bit scandalized by this rumor about two legally separated people (and it's good that Llama knows that people are generally unfazed, and she need not anticipate a public shaming if the rumor is believed), it's also true that it has been hard work for Llama to find a way to consider herself faithful, true, and honourble in this situation. Having found a road that she can walk down without considering herself a moral failure, and having committed herself to it for a lifetime, and having disciplined herself to follow it so far -- the suggestion that she might be publicly believed to be doing the opposite is a truly deep wound.

No.  I don't like being talked about.  I don't like people saying untrue things about me.  I don't want rumors that are untrue to make it back to my husband, or to my young nieces and nephews.  My kids are old enough and have enough insight into their aunt's craziness that there is no chance they will believe this.  The little kids might.  I think most people don't like being talked about, or having untrue things said about them.

4 hours ago, bolt. said:

She cares whether 'people' believe she is living up to her *own* ethical standards, not whether they themselves would or wouldn't impose any such standard on her.

Llama: The bit you need to hear is, yes, anybody who knows you will easily disbelieve a rumor that you are dating anyone right now.

You also need to know that you truly have done everything you can to do your separated husband as much good and as little harm as possible. This rumor may harm him. However, it's important that you know that even though this rumor is about you (you are the topic) that doesn't mean that this rumor is something you are doing. You have done nothing to invite it into your life, or into his life. The rumor is totally someone else's doing, and 100% their moral responsibility. You are only the topic, not the actor, in this situation. If your separated husband falls into self harm, it will be because his sister pushed his buttons, not because you did anything wrong, not because you neglected to do anything that might have helped.

 

Edited July 2 by Drama Llama

[Drama Llama]

22 hours ago, maize said:

Regarding your dh; do you speak with him much these days?

No, we have no contact.

22 hours ago, maize said:

Is there someone in the family who you trust who could speak with him whose words he might believe?

In the past, his delusions about me have been very persistent, regardless of what other people say to counteract them.  

22 hours ago, maize said:

Someone who could give him a heads-up that SIL is making these false accusations and that there is zero truth behind them, and remind him that you take the sacramental vows of marriage seriously? My thinking is inoculate him in advance against her lies. 

I don't know if that would be helpful or not, but it is something I would consider.

Navigating around irrationality and paranoia is really hard because it is an ever-shifting landscape with no rules.

It really is.  That's a great description. 

[wintermom]

I sounds a wee bit like sister and brother are both troubled - certainly with relationships.

I know you don't want to do this, and likely cannot completely, but distancing yourself from people like this is safer than wading into the black pool that you'll not 'win.' 

[Drama Llama]

2 hours ago, wintermom said:

I sounds a wee bit like sister and brother are both troubled - certainly with relationships.

I know you don't want to do this, and likely cannot completely, but distancing yourself from people like this is safer than wading into the black pool that you'll not 'win.' 

I guess I don’t understand how obtaining a restraining order, fighting for 100% custody, taking steps that led to him moving across the country and then being involuntarily committed, and having zero contact with him is evidence that I don’t want to distance myself.  Like what would distancing myself look like to you? 

[bolt.]

18 hours ago, Drama Llama said:

No, I believe my marriage could end.  But until ours ends, then we're married.  At this point, he is not well enough that we can realistically divorce or seek an annulment.  Things could change, and we could end up divorced and seek an annulment, but at this moment I'm married.  

And no, I will never seek to hurt him.  I have hurt him.  My choice to separate myself hurt him deeply, but I didn't do that with the intention of hurting him, I did that to protect my kids.  

No, that's not how I feel at all. 

No.  I don't like being talked about.  I don't like people saying untrue things about me.  I don't want rumors that are untrue to make it back to my husband, or to my young nieces and nephews.  My kids are old enough and have enough insight into their aunt's craziness that there is no chance they will believe this.  The little kids might.  I think most people don't like being talked about, or having untrue things said about them.

 

I'm so sorry that my guesswork wasn't quite correct. I should have left it to you to share the nuances of your complex situation and equally complex feelings about it. (For what it's worth, your perspective as you have expressed it here shows that you are in quite a bit 'better shape' and less vulnerable to being badly hurt than my guesswork had assumed. I'm glad you are doing better than I thought! I hope you weren't insulted.)

[wintermom]

7 minutes ago, Drama Llama said:

I guess I don’t understand how obtaining a restraining order, fighting for 100% custody, taking steps that led to him moving across the country and then being involuntarily committed, and having zero contact with him is evidence that I don’t want to distance myself.  Like what would distancing myself look like to you? 

The sister. You've dealt with your dh quite effectively, but you're asking about the sister. If you choose to wade into the waters of helping your BIL, that means you are not creating much distance with the sister. You are intentionally staying close to her nearest, and right in the line of fire in this drama. Your intentions are well and good, but then you have to expect the crazy and figure out how to deal with that. I don't know what you can realistically do. She's out of control and trying to control you. I just hope this drama isn't affecting any of your own dc in a negative way. That's not really fair to them, and they are your number 1 responsibility. 

[Catwoman]

31 minutes ago, Drama Llama said:

I guess I don’t understand how obtaining a restraining order, fighting for 100% custody, taking steps that led to him moving across the country and then being involuntarily committed, and having zero contact with him is evidence that I don’t want to distance myself.  Like what would distancing myself look like to you? 

Honestly, what distancing would look like to most people would be that you'd divorce your husband and stop being so involved with his immediate family. 

I know that's not something you're willing to do, but if you don't want SIL involved in your life and possibly starting rumors and spreading gossip about you to your ex, you will need to find a way to actually physically and emotionally distance yourself from her and the rest of your ex's family. No matter how much they may care about you, their loyalty will probably always be to him first. 

 

[livetoread]

Llama is in a tough situation because the family is her village. They have provided so much more good than bad, and distancing from any one particular member is tricky and affects the family. Llama, you have carefully walked this tightrope for a long time, and I'm really sorry the rope has gotten even narrower lately. As others have said (and I know you know) there is a limit to what you can control here. You can think about anything you can do in addition to what you've already done to keep the kids safe when he is released, and you can talk to those whose opinions matter most if you think it would help, but sister is going to do her thing and sow chaos.

I know someone whose life was negatively and heavily impacted by extremely public false accusations made by a chaotic ex. Fighting back publicly would have hurt the children involved. His therapist told him that sometimes all you can do is let the cars run over you for awhile. It really sucks.

[Catwoman]

2 minutes ago, livetoread said:

Llama is in a tough situation because the family is her village. They have provided so much more good than bad, and distancing from any one particular member is tricky and affects the family. Llama, you have carefully walked this tightrope for a long time, and I'm really sorry the rope has gotten even narrower lately. As others have said (and I know you know) there is a limit to what you can control here. You can think about anything you can do in addition to what you've already done to keep the kids safe when he is released, and you can talk to those whose opinions matter most if you think it would help, but sister is going to do her thing and sow chaos.

I know someone whose life was negatively and heavily impacted by extremely public false accusations made by a chaotic ex. Fighting back publicly would have hurt the children involved. His therapist told him that sometimes all you can do is let the cars run over you for awhile. It really sucks.

That's all true, but the fact is that "the family" is first and foremost her husband's family, and his sister in particular is always going to prioritize him and try to discredit Llama. 

If Llama wants to maintain that close relationship with the rest of her husband's family, she's going to be stuck dealing with SIL's nastiness. I wish I could see a way around that, but I just can't. 😞 

[livetoread]

1 minute ago, Catwoman said:

That's all true, but the fact is that "the family" is first and foremost her husband's family, and his sister in particular is always going to prioritize him and try to discredit Llama. 

If Llama wants to maintain that close relationship with the rest of her husband's family, she's going to be stuck dealing with SIL's nastiness. I wish I could see a way around that, but I just can't. 😞 

Yes sister has always been unhelpful to both Llama and her brother, but has prioritized brother for sure. It has sounded to me like the rest of his family has tried to support both of them, and has generally done a good job threading that needle. Maybe sister will distance herself from the family now.

 

[Catwoman]

1 minute ago, livetoread said:

Yes sister has always been unhelpful to both Llama and her brother, but has prioritized brother for sure. It has sounded to me like the rest of his family has tried to support both of them, and has generally done a good job threading that needle. Maybe sister will distance herself from the family now.

 

I would think the sister would go in the other direction and keep trying harder to push Llama and BIL away from the family.

She would have no reason to distance herself from her own family.

[Heartstrings]

19 hours ago, Drama Llama said:

No.  I don't like being talked about.  I don't like people saying untrue things about me.  I don't want rumors that are untrue to make it back to my husband, or to my young nieces and nephews.  My kids are old enough and have enough insight into their aunt's craziness that there is no chance they will believe this.  The little kids might.  I think most people don't like being talked about, or having untrue things said about them.

 Nobody likes being on the receiving end of this kind of gossip and crazy.  It’s terrible and hurtful and will drive you crazy with frustration.  

It’s also true that no one can really do anything about it.  Maybe try to preempt it a bit?  Mention to others that BIL and SIL are divorcing and that she’s going off the deep end and spreading lies to help herself in court.  Give closer people more information.  Maybe loop in the priest.  Maybe tell the little kids a child appropriate version before other versions get to their ears.  
 

It’s so not fair that you have to deal with all of this.  

[Catwoman]

7 minutes ago, Heartstrings said:

 Nobody likes being on the receiving end of this kind of gossip and crazy.  It’s terrible and hurtful and will drive you crazy with frustration.  

It’s also true that no one can really do anything about it.  Maybe try to preempt it a bit?  Mention to others that BIL and SIL are divorcing and that she’s going off the deep end and spreading lies to help herself in court.  Give closer people more information.  Maybe loop in the priest.  Maybe tell the little kids a child appropriate version before other versions get to their ears.  
 

It’s so not fair that you have to deal with all of this.  

I really like these ideas.

It might not be what Llama is innately comfortable doing, but it could be the only way to beat SIL at her own game.

[prairiewindmomma]

1 hour ago, Catwoman said:

I would think the sister would go in the other direction and keep trying harder to push Llama and BIL away from the family.

She would have no reason to distance herself from her own family.

Yup. I think SIL has always been insecure around Llama which is why she has made demands of her and why she attacks her. She tries to drive her away from the family nest. This is just another flavor of that….one in which SIL thinks she can twist the legal system to aid her. 
 

SIL doesnt seem to have a problem with Llama spending time with her kids. It seems to be Llama’s relationship with FIL and with the rest of the family that is the problem for SIL. She’s been pretty consistent in that regard.
 

 

[Drama Llama]

6 hours ago, prairiewindmomma said:

Yup. I think SIL has always been insecure around Llama which is why she has made demands of her and why she attacks her.

We used to be pretty friendly.  We used to vacation together, and would talk once in a while on the phone.  When she was the one raising the kids, she was very competitive, and I'm just not, and so I think she felt like she won a lot. 

And then my son got very sick, and we got a lot of help for my other kids from her Dad, and Pop and her siblings.  And that sparked a lot of jealousy, which I just don't understand.  Like if your parents kept your siblings kids so you could go on a couple vacation and they didn't keep yours, I could see being jealous.  But if your parents kept your siblings kids, because the parents were in PICU with another kid?  I don't think I'd be jealous.  But she clearly was.  

And then she moved out here and discovered that my kids are kind of awesome, and it became less clear that she was winning at this parenting thing (my kids are not more awesome than her kids, just not less), and her resentment grew, and her jealousy grew, even while my entire world was falling apart.  

6 hours ago, prairiewindmomma said:

She tries to drive her away from the family nest. This is just another flavor of that….one in which SIL thinks she can twist the legal system to aid her. 

SIL doesnt seem to have a problem with Llama spending time with her kids. It seems to be Llama’s relationship with FIL and with the rest of the family that is the problem for SIL. She’s been pretty consistent in that regard.

It's a little weird.  Since they separated, I don't think there's been a week when I haven't had her kids more than she does.   And now, she's not seeing them at all, so I definitely have them more.  She wants them with me, because she can count that as "her" time.  She can argue that she took her custody time, and was just using family as childcare, as single working moms do.  And if she's taking her custody time, then she deserves child support right?  

On the other hand, she doesn't want me to take the kids on their Dad's time.  Because that's helping BIL, and she wants him to be miserable.  

 

[Heartstrings]

12 minutes ago, Drama Llama said:

Since they separated, I don't think there's been a week when I haven't had her kids more than she does.   And now, she's not seeing them at all, so I definitely have them more.  She wants them with me, because she can count that as "her" time.  She can argue that she took her custody time, and was just using family as childcare, as single working moms do.  And if she's taking her custody time, then she deserves child support right?  

I don’t know much but I’m not sure this is going to work out the way she thinks it will.  
 

Being at a sitter from 8-5, then home with mom at 5:30 is one thing, but being with the sitter for 100% of moms parenting in a given month isn’t going to look great.  

Edited July 4 by Heartstrings

[KungFuPanda]

If you’re keeping the kids during her time AND some of his time then YOU deserve child support. 

[Scarlett]

The truth is a judge won’t care much at all about these details. Most states count over nights…..so if you are keeping the kids during the day but they go home with their dad….he gets to count that. If mom isn’t doing hardly any overnights that will be reflected in the child support calculations.

A judge will care nothing about whether you and BIL are having an affair. (Unless the affair caused a divorce in which his judgment could be questioned). So I don’t think BIL needs to worry about court much.  
 

The rest of it has to do with your reputation which I understand concerns you.  Sometimes we have to just let that play out.  She obviously has no proof.,

Edited July 4 by Scarlett

[wintermom]

On 7/3/2024 at 11:21 AM, wintermom said:

I just hope this drama isn't affecting any of your own dc in a negative way. That's not really fair to them, and they are your number 1 responsibility. 

I keep coming back to this. @Drama Llama is presumabley single-parenting 3 dc, and also taking on the burden and drama of other dc from a broken home. Why? What's the advantage for her dc? I'd question the priorities of a person in this case, but I don't know the entire story. On the surface the optics look bad. Sorry if this is offensive. 

[SKL]

6 minutes ago, wintermom said:

I keep coming back to this. @Drama Llama is presumabley single-parenting 3 dc, and also taking on the burden and drama of other dc from a broken home. Why? What's the advantage for her dc? I'd question the priorities of a person in this case, but I don't know the entire story. On the surface the optics look bad. Sorry if this is offensive. 

I've observed the story from WTM view over the years.  So first, I will say I'm not entirely clear on all of it, because Llama has (rightly) tried not to leave info on the internet that could cause problems IRL.

From my observation, Llama wants very much to do the right, kind thing for family members, partly because the extended family has been helpful to her when things were very difficult in the past; partly because she wants her kids to have good relationships with the relatives if they want them; and partly because she's a principled and kind person.

I understand that it may not feel right to go rogue at this point, but I also think that there's a point of no return, and SIL constantly and aggressively pushes that.  Llama's boys will soon be old enough to maintain their own relationships with the extended family, as they see fit.  Some might say they are at that point now, but that's for Llama to decide.

From the outside looking in, SIL is constantly looking for ways to hurt Llama and her kids (and honestly her husband too).  IMO this is just as much of an abusive relationship as many blood or marital ones.  I don't think it would be wrong to cut off all help and all contact with SIL (other than when both attend bigger functions), and to tell select people why.  I understand why this is hard.  But if I were Llama, I'd have a date on my calendar (in the near future) for when I'd cut SIL off completely.  SIL's kids can still come over during their dad's custody time.

I also think that Llama can't control the fact that SIL is out to hurt Llama's husband, and that it might be good for Llama if she gave up trying.

[wintermom]

Shouldn't these dc be spending MORE time with their actual mother than less? They are being tossed around from house to house during this marriage breakdown. I fail to see the advantage to the children that they don't see much of their mom.

[Harriet Vane]

18 minutes ago, wintermom said:

I keep coming back to this. @Drama Llama is presumabley single-parenting 3 dc, and also taking on the burden and drama of other dc from a broken home. Why? What's the advantage for her dc? I'd question the priorities of a person in this case, but I don't know the entire story. On the surface the optics look bad. Sorry if this is offensive. 

Dh's extended family have absolutely been her mainstay and her very best support. They know what she faces and they have shown repeatedly that they will act swiftly to keep her and the kids safe. The only people in this system who are not safe are the two who are mentally ill. DL is choosing to stay connected to those that know the specific situation and who have shown they can and will act. These are the people who are genuine family for her children. 

My guess is also that DL is giving back into the family system that has so fulsomely supported her, and that she is choosing to focus on the children who need kindness and stability. Those vulnerable young children need a buffer between them and the unstable parent.

[Harriet Vane]

1 minute ago, wintermom said:

Shouldn't these dc be spending MORE time with their actual mother than less? They are being tossed around from house to house during this marriage breakdown. I fail to see the advantage to the children that they don't see much of their mom.

Absolutely not. Children should not be forced to spend time with dangerous people. 

 

Edited to add--

There are lots of times that kind people in the orbit of a dangerous person just quietly step in. I have done this myself quite a lot. Just quietly BE THERE for the kids, flattering the parent and stroking the parent's ego and making them feel liked, all in order to offer those kids whatever respite is possible. 

Edited July 4 by Harriet Vane

[catz]

23 minutes ago, wintermom said:

On the surface the optics look bad.

Well this is entirely inaccurate.  This family has been supportive and been important connections for her boys.  And she has two.  Including these cousins whose lives have been pretty intertwined for a while.   Maybe we all don't think we'd make the same choices, but very few people have had to deal with this exact set of very difficult ongoing circumstances.  

It would be awesome if the SIL in question could be mentally sound and stable and make better choices for her kids.  But that is not anything OP has any control over.  

[regentrude]

11 minutes ago, wintermom said:

Shouldn't these dc be spending MORE time with their actual mother than less? They are being tossed around from house to house during this marriage breakdown. I fail to see the advantage to the children that they don't see much of their mom.

Their mentally unwell mother doesn't *wish* to spend time with her children. That has been a longstanding issue; I recall Llama talking about it since the birth of the last baby. 

Ideally, kids would have a functional mother who interacts with them in a healthy way. These children don't. They rely on their father, Llama,  and extended family.

[Drama Llama]

17 minutes ago, wintermom said:

Shouldn't these dc be spending MORE time with their actual mother than less? They are being tossed around from house to house during this marriage breakdown. I fail to see the advantage to the children that they don't see much of their mom.

No one has ever prevented her from seeing her kids.  Her father and her sister have worked hard to facilitate her seeing them.  But, it's not something anyone can force.  

 

[Drama Llama]

22 minutes ago, Harriet Vane said:

Dh's extended family have absolutely been her mainstay and her very best support. They know what she faces and they have shown repeatedly that they will act swiftly to keep her and the kids safe. The only people in this system who are not safe are the two who are mentally ill. DL is choosing to stay connected to those that know the specific situation and who have shown they can and will act. These are the people who are genuine family for her children. 

My guess is also that DL is giving back into the family system that has so fulsomely supported her, and that she is choosing to focus on the children who need kindness and stability. Those vulnerable young children need a buffer between them and the unstable parent.

PLEASE DON'T QUOTE:  My FIL, and DH's brother, have literally and figuratively stepped between my kids and DH at his most dangerous moments.  They have beaten the cops to get to us more than once.   The only way I could safely leave would be if I went into hiding, which isn't a life I would wish for my kids, and not something I think i could realistically pull off.  

Plus, my kids have lost a brother, a father, and their Pop in less than four years.  They are very attached to their grandfather.

I don't talk to my SIL.  I include her on texts for kid related logistics, but I know I'm blocked.  If they come to me it's either because BIL or FIL asked.  

[QumaCote]

I have no words of wisdom, but I am so incredibly sorry for you and your precious children. Hugs!!

[kbutton]

Clarifying question: is this SIL the DH’s sister or the STB ex of DH’s brother? A reference to the DH’s brother has me confused on how many siblings are involved, and I have always thought the SIL was the DH’s actual sister.

It doesn’t change the difficulty of the situation, but it would be less confusing to know.