Parental hypervigilance as a cause of the mental health epidemic among American kids and teens

[Frances]

4 hours ago, KungFuPanda said:

I’ve read about hyper vigilant helicopter parents but I rarely come across them in the wild. I’m wondering where you would even find a significant cluster of these parents to study. Involved and invested parents seem to be the norm near me but who has the energy or time to really micromanage your child’s life to the degree you’re describing unless they have extreme and likely heritable anxiety themselves?

I guess we all live in a bubble to some degree, mine is an upper middle class one where these types of parents are likely far more common. But the article also spoke to broader societal trends that likely cut across different socioeconomic classes.

[Farrar]

4 hours ago, KungFuPanda said:

I’ve read about hyper vigilant helicopter parents but I rarely come across them in the wild. I’m wondering where you would even find a significant cluster of these parents to study. Involved and invested parents seem to be the norm near me but who has the energy or time to really micromanage your child’s life to the degree you’re describing unless they have extreme and likely heritable anxiety themselves?

I don't see a lot of parents micromanaging exactly. It's not like every parent is doing every single thing on the list of "helicopter" or "hyper vigilant" or "bulldozer" parenting behaviors. What I see is that the needle has just moved overall in society. So where all of these behaviors used to be relatively uncommon, now many parents are engaged in some of them and they seem normalized. You don't have to be a micromanger just to have a "no going to park alone" and a "absolutely no sleepovers" rule for a 12 year old. I know tons of families like that now. But those would have been weird rules when I was a kid at that age.

[Farrar]

One thing I think I've observed around this is a cycle of reinforcement of anxious behaviors. It goes a little like this...

Parent doesn't think kid is ready for independent task (imagine any specific independent thing) so they don't allow it.
Kid gets anxious about independent task.
Parent sees the anxiety and excuses kid from doing independent task even when they feel it's age appropriate.
Kid gets more anxious as they never had to do the independent task in question.
Parent realizes that now kid is super old to be doing independent task for the first time and somehow it's become a THING. Instead of forcing them to do it, they are now stuck in a coddling and supporting kid's anxiety role.
Kid experiences anxiety about the task, but also now questions their abilities in a wide array of situations. After all, they can't do independent task, so they begin to develop a picture of themselves that says they're helpless.

Straight up, I think more parents should force kids to do more stuff. Like, absolutely force it. And knowing when is SO HARD. I say this as a parent to a kid with anxiety. And I am so, so glad I forced him to do those things. I'm glad I forced my reluctant kids to ride the bus alone, I'm glad I forced them to go to the store alone, to apply to jobs, to apply to college, to make phone calls, to go to the doctor alone, to do a ton of stuff alone that they simply did not want to do. But also, sometimes it's better to go in, to help... I don't think it's straightforward. You can't parental bully anxiety out of a kid either. So I get why it's rough. But I also think a lot of parents are stuck in a cycle where they're inadvertently supporting the anxiety rather than the kid.

[Mrs Tiggywinkle Again]

1 hour ago, Farrar said:

I don't see a lot of parents micromanaging exactly. It's not like every parent is doing every single thing on the list of "helicopter" or "hyper vigilant" or "bulldozer" parenting behaviors. What I see is that the needle has just moved overall in society. So where all of these behaviors used to be relatively uncommon, now many parents are engaged in some of them and they seem normalized. You don't have to be a micromanger just to have a "no going to park alone" and a "absolutely no sleepovers" rule for a 12 year old. I know tons of families like that now. But those would have been weird rules when I was a kid at that age.

I would actually allow sleepovers, but it seems like most of my kids’ friends’ parents do not. My daughter desperately wants a sleepover birthday party but only one friend would be able to come—and it’s her cousin. The others will only do “late overs.”

All my parents’ weird and super strict rules in the 1990s have become mainstream, it seems, and I am not really sure what that says about society. 

[SKL]

FTR we never had "sleepovers" as a kid, except very rarely with my mom's best friend's kids.  Most of my friends didn't have sleepovers, either.

We were not allowed to have neighbor kids in our house at all.  Other kids had to ask to have friends in, or if their parent wasn't home, it was usually "no."

I don't think it had anything to do with the safety of us kids, but more about keeping potential thieves, vandals, and mess-makers out while the folks were at work, and having a little sanctuary after working all day.

So, we did our free-ranging with friends outside the house.

Edited December 26, 2023 by SKL

[SKL]

2 hours ago, Farrar said:

Straight up, I think more parents should force kids to do more stuff. Like, absolutely force it. And knowing when is SO HARD. I say this as a parent to a kid with anxiety. And I am so, so glad I forced him to do those things. I'm glad I forced my reluctant kids to ride the bus alone, I'm glad I forced them to go to the store alone, to apply to jobs, to apply to college, to make phone calls, to go to the doctor alone, to do a ton of stuff alone that they simply did not want to do. But also, sometimes it's better to go in, to help... I don't think it's straightforward. You can't parental bully anxiety out of a kid either. So I get why it's rough. But I also think a lot of parents are stuck in a cycle where they're inadvertently supporting the anxiety rather than the kid.

I'm with you on this.  I have said my kids weren't adventurous.  I did have to push a lot of things.  For example, when they were of summer camp age, I would sign them up for a series of different weekly "camps," and I'd drop them off and say Bye, leaving them to figure out where to go, what to do, and how to interact.  I forced them to go shopping on their own etc.  Each time at least one of them was sure she couldn't do this, but then exhilarated to find that she could.  You could practically see the "confidence" meter moving up.

The other half of me says, "well that's still me managing what they're doing.  That's not encouraging independence!"  Well, we need to balance things, right?  The fact that I forced my kids go in and do abc may be the reason they are now happily choosing to do xyz on their own.

My kids still aren't the most confident, but I think it would be worse if I waited around for them to decide they wanted to try things.  If I had adventurous kids, I might feel differently.

[SKL]

I would also say that I don't think it works to compare cultures in terms of upbringing vs. diagnoses.

IMO, "can-do-it" cultures tend to look down upon people who admit mental weaknesses.  People who suspect that they may be diagnosable would be afraid to say it out loud.  So that is going to skew the statistics.

Edited December 26, 2023 by SKL

[fairfarmhand]

3 hours ago, Farrar said:

One thing I think I've observed around this is a cycle of reinforcement of anxious behaviors. It goes a little like this...

Parent doesn't think kid is ready for independent task (imagine any specific independent thing) so they don't allow it.
Kid gets anxious about independent task.
Parent sees the anxiety and excuses kid from doing independent task even when they feel it's age appropriate.
Kid gets more anxious as they never had to do the independent task in question.
Parent realizes that now kid is super old to be doing independent task for the first time and somehow it's become a THING. Instead of forcing them to do it, they are now stuck in a coddling and supporting kid's anxiety role.
Kid experiences anxiety about the task, but also now questions their abilities in a wide array of situations. After all, they can't do independent task, so they begin to develop a picture of themselves that says they're helpless.

Straight up, I think more parents should force kids to do more stuff. Like, absolutely force it. And knowing when is SO HARD. I say this as a parent to a kid with anxiety. And I am so, so glad I forced him to do those things. I'm glad I forced my reluctant kids to ride the bus alone, I'm glad I forced them to go to the store alone, to apply to jobs, to apply to college, to make phone calls, to go to the doctor alone, to do a ton of stuff alone that they simply did not want to do. But also, sometimes it's better to go in, to help... I don't think it's straightforward. You can't parental bully anxiety out of a kid either. So I get why it's rough. But I also think a lot of parents are stuck in a cycle where they're inadvertently supporting the anxiety rather than the kid.

This has been my reality with at least 2 of my anxious kids. (kid 4 is still pending..we'll see how it goes) I had to push dd2 to drive. To get a job. To keep going to said job when it was hard. I had to push dd3 to drive at 17, to get the job, to apply for scholarships, to go to college. And on the other side, they're both so glad that I did all those things for them.

[JumpyTheFrog]

On 12/25/2023 at 1:16 PM, Rosie_0801 said:

The neighbour's 17yo seemed pleased with the little book on dividend investing I left for him for Christmas. 

That's great! How old does he have to open an investment account there? 

In my area, it seems like banks don't want to bother with offering even savings accounts for kids. Even most of the online banks don't offer them to anyone under 18. I opened one for DS17 when he needed an account for direct deposit for his job. When I checked a few months ago, it was pay 0.3% interest when the adult accounts were paying over 4%! What a ripoff!

On 12/25/2023 at 1:19 PM, Terabith said:

Kids aren't the only victims of vanishing third spaces. 

Where I play indoor soccer, there are tables next to the field. It's common for about half of each team to stay after the game for another 20-60 minutes to chat, half-heartedly watch the next game, and sometimes buy a pitcher of beer to share. In contrast, there aren't any tables next to the field where I play outdoor soccer. This means that everyone's default is to hop in their cars and go home. Nobody really accidentally meets people from the other team.

10 hours ago, KungFuPanda said:

I’ve read about hyper vigilant helicopter parents but I rarely come across them in the wild.

In the mid-90s my parents babysat a set of 14 twin girls for the weekend. They were quite surprised my parents let them use steak knives because their parents wouldn't let them use knives.

I'm not sure about the reasons for other parents, but we can't be the only parents who didn't allow sleepovers because of hearing about how many kids were molested by trusted people such as coaches. When I was 15 my boyfriend was having to testify in court about how he and his best friend had been molested by their Boy Scout leader maybe a year or two before. I don't know any of the details because I assumed he didn't want to talk about it, but it certainly made me aware that not everyone who seems trustworthy is.

[Rosie_0801]

9 minutes ago, JumpyTheFrog said:

That's great! How old does he have to open an investment account there? 

In my area, it seems like banks don't want to bother with offering even savings accounts for kids. Even most of the online banks don't offer them to anyone under 18. I opened one for DS17 when he needed an account for direct deposit for his job. When I checked a few months ago, it was pay 0.3% interest when the adult accounts were paying over 4%! What a ripoff!

He'd have to be 18 to open an account himself, but he could ask his parents to open one as a subsidiary of theirs if he wanted to, but probably it'll take him most of the way to 18 to save up enough anyway. My daughter has had one for years as a subsidiary of her uncle's account. 

That's weird about the banks. It's entirely normal here for kids to have bank accounts. Again, dd has had one for years. Her uncle's name was on the account until she was 12, I think, then automatically removed. 

[kathyl]

36 minutes ago, JumpyTheFrog said:

.....

I'm not sure about the reasons for other parents, but we can't be the only parents who didn't allow sleepovers because of hearing about how many kids were molested by trusted people such as coaches. When I was 15 my boyfriend was having to testify in court about how he and his best friend had been molested by their Boy Scout leader maybe a year or two before. I don't know any of the details because I assumed he didn't want to talk about it, but it certainly made me aware that not everyone who seems trustworthy is.

I didn't allow sleepovers for my kids either.  I also didn't allow babysitting.  I just knew too many girls (and boys) who had been molested at sleepovers or while babysitting.  

When I was a teen, a girl I didn't know well gave one couple my name to babysit for them.  I did.  Afterwards, the girl asked me how it went.  I said fine (and boring - I hated babysitting).  She looked at me weird, so I asked why.  She said the man had crawled into bed with her when she babysat for them.  I asked her what she did.  She said she told him he better 'blankety blank blank blank'  etc etc, and he disappeared real fast.

As an adult, 2 different girls who had been our neighbors (upper middle-class neighborhood, btw) when I was growing up told me how they had been molested - one by her father, the other by the neighbor who lived next door to my family.

I could go on with more accounts I knew of personally, but you get the picture.  So when I had kids I just made the decision not to take that particular risk with my own kids.  

Edited December 27, 2023 by kathyl

[Ausmumof3]

5 hours ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle Again said:

I would actually allow sleepovers, but it seems like most of my kids’ friends’ parents do not. My daughter desperately wants a sleepover birthday party but only one friend would be able to come—and it’s her cousin. The others will only do “late overs.”

All my parents’ weird and super strict rules in the 1990s have become mainstream, it seems, and I am not really sure what that says about society. 

I think it just says that many of us had unfortunate experiences that made us decide not to risk that for our kids 😞 

[Ausmumof3]

It’s interesting to discuss this because for most of us our reference point is “what changed since our childhood?”. But that’s just one point in time. I’m guarded about risks from other people, but fairly relaxed about physical risks. When I did my first aid, I learned that pre antibiotics a compound fracture was almost a death sentence for many people. I would think that would make people more cautious about risk? 
 

I wonder how much has to do with religion/atheism etc. Like, if you believe that this is all there is, you really want to make the best of it, whereas if you believe in life after death, death seems less scary. I don’t know if that’s true though because I know plenty of cautious religious parents as well. Or maybe it’s just to do with having less kids. Like when people had ten kids it was expected you’d lose some, but now we have two and it’s shocking if any child dies?

 

Definitely in wealthy families I think risk for kids was probably really guarded against. Like whole families moving out of town to avoid measles and no one went to the park without a nanny. So maybe antibiotics and vaccinations allowed our parents to be more relaxed about everything but that’s not typical.

Edited December 27, 2023 by Ausmumof3

[Rosie_0801]

9 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:

It’s interesting to discuss this because for most of us our reference point is “what changed since our childhood?”. But that’s just one point in time. I’m guarded about risks from other people, but fairly relaxed about physical risks. When I did my first aid, I learned that pre antibiotics a compound fracture was almost a death sentence for many people. I would think that would make people more cautious about risk? 

I wonder if it's not the differences in our childhoods but in the young adult years. I'm sure some differences in perspective and what is and isn't really a risk differs between myself and my mother because I lived independently before having children at 27 and she married straight out of home and had her first at 21. 

[KungFuPanda]

7 hours ago, Frances said:

I guess we all live in a bubble to some degree, mine is an upper middle class one where these types of parents are likely far more common. But the article also spoke to broader societal trends that likely cut across different socioeconomic classes.

I get that my experience isn’t everyone’s experience, but I live in an upper middle class neighborhood where the parents seem to be dedicated to making sure their kids unplug and get out. Elementary kids are walking to school without adults. It’s fine. There are crossing guards. Groups of kids are buzzing around the neighborhood bike paths and going to the store/ice rink/ball park/library without an adult. As free range as I was in the 80s, I didn’t live near anywhere to go. We played in the woods and bussed to school. Your physical location plays a huge part and some towns are better suited for kids to explore. 
 

I’m guessing that a lot of my perspective comes from hanging around like-minded people. I’ve dropped an entire carload of teens at the metro station so they could enjoy DC for a day. Anyone whose parent isn’t fine with this just wouldn’t let me take their kid.  I don’t know. The kids planned it and I was their Uber. 
 

There is a level of hyper involvement when it comes to college selection. I never knew people visited SO MANY schools. 

[Clarita]

29 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:

5 hours ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle Again said:

I would actually allow sleepovers, but it seems like most of my kids’ friends’ parents do not. My daughter desperately wants a sleepover birthday party but only one friend would be able to come—and it’s her cousin. The others will only do “late overs.”

All my parents’ weird and super strict rules in the 1990s have become mainstream, it seems, and I am not really sure what that says about society. 

I think it just says that many of us had unfortunate experiences that made us decide not to risk that for our kids 😞 

Sometimes it's really hard to read some of the "Give your kids independence. It's so good for them." things while knowing all the people you know who've had really bad experiences with those independences. (speaking to walking alone, baby sitting, getting jobs, sleepovers, etc.) Sometimes it makes me wonder were the 90's just this horrible decade. Were these things not happening in the 70's/80's and before...

For example my parents stopped letting me walk/bike/bus to school by myself after a lady was abducted by our house by strangers things, done to her and she was found dead in the Sierra Nevadas. Then our parents were told that the abductors originally targeted my friend and me, just that on their planned day, they saw her and she was walking by herself so they thought she was an easier target. 

[kathyl]

3 minutes ago, Clarita said:

Sometimes it's really hard to read some of the "Give your kids independence. It's so good for them." things while knowing all the people you know who've had really bad experiences with those independences. (speaking to walking alone, baby sitting, getting jobs, sleepovers, etc.) Sometimes it makes me wonder were the 90's just this horrible decade. Were these things not happening in the 70's/80's and before...

For example my parents stopped letting me walk/bike/bus to school by myself after a lady was abducted by our house by strangers things, done to her and she was found dead in the Sierra Nevadas. Then our parents were told that the abductors originally targeted my friend and me, just that on their planned day, they saw her and she was walking by herself so they thought she was an easier target. 

The things I related above happened in the 60's and early 70's.  I don't think stuff like this is confined to one time period.

[SKL]

1 hour ago, Clarita said:

Sometimes it's really hard to read some of the "Give your kids independence. It's so good for them." things while knowing all the people you know who've had really bad experiences with those independences. (speaking to walking alone, baby sitting, getting jobs, sleepovers, etc.) Sometimes it makes me wonder were the 90's just this horrible decade. Were these things not happening in the 70's/80's and before...

For example my parents stopped letting me walk/bike/bus to school by myself after a lady was abducted by our house by strangers things, done to her and she was found dead in the Sierra Nevadas. Then our parents were told that the abductors originally targeted my friend and me, just that on their planned day, they saw her and she was walking by herself so they thought she was an easier target. 

Those things happened in all generations for sure.  But one didn't have to sleep over to be molested.  It happened to most if not all of my siblings without any sleepovers.  The people I know who have shared with me were molested by "trusted" relatives and family friends.  Statistically, it is very unusual for a kid to be molested by a person the parent didn't consider trustworthy.

There are things that have changed, at least in my personal experience.  When I was a kid, the neighborhood watched the kids.  Whenever we got up to something stupid, someone's SAHM / babysitter or a cranky retired neighbor would holler out the window, and we knew our folks would find out if we didn't stop.  One time my sibs and I were about 10 blocks away, thinking nobody there knew who we were, and we got up to something.  Somehow, someone's mom figured out where we lived and sent a group of kids over to my house to tattle to my parents.

There were multiple "weirdos" in our neighborhood.  The not-weird neighbors would watch and notice if any little kids were lured into their backyards or whatever.  They'd go yell at the kid to come out, and then go tell the kid's parents.

It was the "trusted friend" who ended up being the biggest creep.  We used to go visit inside that house, where grooming and more occurred.  My folks never found out until many years later.  Oh, also, one of our [female] babysitters turned out to be a perv.  I guess that's when my folks decided to just give us a housekey.

But yeah ... what's so great about sleepovers again?  How is that even "independence"?  It's just trading one family's rules for another family's rules.

[Clarita]

1 hour ago, kathyl said:

1 hour ago, Clarita said:

Sometimes it's really hard to read some of the "Give your kids independence. It's so good for them." things while knowing all the people you know who've had really bad experiences with those independences. (speaking to walking alone, baby sitting, getting jobs, sleepovers, etc.) Sometimes it makes me wonder were the 90's just this horrible decade. Were these things not happening in the 70's/80's and before...

For example my parents stopped letting me walk/bike/bus to school by myself after a lady was abducted by our house by strangers things, done to her and she was found dead in the Sierra Nevadas. Then our parents were told that the abductors originally targeted my friend and me, just that on their planned day, they saw her and she was walking by herself so they thought she was an easier target. 

The things I related above happened in the 60's and early 70's.  I don't think stuff like this is confined to one time period.

I mean I'm Ok with my children getting skinned knees and stuff, but when we start talking about the pre-teen and teen years I don't know that I can be that parent to let my children go sleepover at someone housel, I don't know if I should trust my teens to be able to handle sexual harassment at work, etc. 

2 minutes ago, SKL said:

It was the "trusted friend" who ended up being the biggest creep.  We used to go visit inside that house, where grooming and more occurred.  My folks never found out until many years later.  Oh, also, one of our [female] babysitters turned out to be a perv.  I guess that's when my folks decided to just give us a housekey.

I mean also this. The worst cases are the "trusted" adult and it doesn't have to be the parent. It's not great coupled with my personal experiences of being harassed by strangers. 

[Frances]

3 hours ago, KungFuPanda said:

I get that my experience isn’t everyone’s experience, but I live in an upper middle class neighborhood where the parents seem to be dedicated to making sure their kids unplug and get out. Elementary kids are walking to school without adults. It’s fine. There are crossing guards. Groups of kids are buzzing around the neighborhood bike paths and going to the store/ice rink/ball park/library without an adult. As free range as I was in the 80s, I didn’t live near anywhere to go. We played in the woods and bussed to school. Your physical location plays a huge part and some towns are better suited for kids to explore. 
 

I’m guessing that a lot of my perspective comes from hanging around like-minded people. I’ve dropped an entire carload of teens at the metro station so they could enjoy DC for a day. Anyone whose parent isn’t fine with this just wouldn’t let me take their kid.  I don’t know. The kids planned it and I was their Uber. 
 

There is a level of hyper involvement when it comes to college selection. I never knew people visited SO MANY schools. 

All of this also happens with most people I know. The hyper involvement and micromanagement mainly revolves around education and ECs, not going places independently or walking alone to school.

[Frances]

2 hours ago, SKL said:

Those things happened in all generations for sure.  But one didn't have to sleep over to be molested.  It happened to most if not all of my siblings without any sleepovers.  The people I know who have shared with me were molested by "trusted" relatives and family friends.  Statistically, it is very unusual for a kid to be molested by a person the parent didn't consider trustworthy.

There are things that have changed, at least in my personal experience.  When I was a kid, the neighborhood watched the kids.  Whenever we got up to something stupid, someone's SAHM / babysitter or a cranky retired neighbor would holler out the window, and we knew our folks would find out if we didn't stop.  One time my sibs and I were about 10 blocks away, thinking nobody there knew who we were, and we got up to something.  Somehow, someone's mom figured out where we lived and sent a group of kids over to my house to tattle to my parents.

There were multiple "weirdos" in our neighborhood.  The not-weird neighbors would watch and notice if any little kids were lured into their backyards or whatever.  They'd go yell at the kid to come out, and then go tell the kid's parents.

It was the "trusted friend" who ended up being the biggest creep.  We used to go visit inside that house, where grooming and more occurred.  My folks never found out until many years later.  Oh, also, one of our [female] babysitters turned out to be a perv.  I guess that's when my folks decided to just give us a housekey.

But yeah ... what's so great about sleepovers again?  How is that even "independence"?  It's just trading one family's rules for another family's rules.

Personally I don’t see whether someone allows sleepovers or not as some gauge of how much independence a parent allows. My son did them with his very closest friends whose families were also friends of ours. As for babysitting, I would never allow my son to do it after reading horror stories about teen boys being falsely accused of improper behavior. There are plenty of other ways for kids to practice independence. I did some babysitting growing up, but never really liked it. I far preferred my paper route and lawn mowing. Lawn mowing was way more lucrative than babysitting. My son taught a variety of classes  to kids through adults across various settings (frequently without any supervision), was a summer camp leader that took groups of younger kids around town for filming, was part of ten/adult TV production crews that travelled to various sites, produced his own shows, etc. He didn’t need babysitting to practice independence.

Edited December 27, 2023 by Frances

[Catwoman]

On 12/25/2023 at 5:20 AM, Hyacinth said:

I joined a Parents of XX University FB group when ds was a freshman. Some of the questions/comments from other moms were shocking. “Can someone tell me what time the bus picks up in front of the library? I need to make sure my daughter knows.” “My son got a bad grade from a professor who is obviously an awful teacher. Should I file a complaint?” “My son says his room is dirty. Will the school let me hire a cleaning service?” 

Even when I was in college back in the dark ages (1980 😉) many of us had cleaning ladies and sent our laundry out to be done, so I don’t find it shocking that people are asking those same questions now — although I remember hiring my own cleaning person and asking other students which laundry and dry cleaning service was the best. My parents didn’t ask about it for me (although they paid for everything.)  

[Carrie12345]

11 hours ago, Clarita said:

Sometimes it's really hard to read some of the "Give your kids independence. It's so good for them." things while knowing all the people you know who've had really bad experiences with those independences. (speaking to walking alone, baby sitting, getting jobs, sleepovers, etc.) Sometimes it makes me wonder were the 90's just this horrible decade. Were these things not happening in the 70's/80's and before...

For example my parents stopped letting me walk/bike/bus to school by myself after a lady was abducted by our house by strangers things, done to her and she was found dead in the Sierra Nevadas. Then our parents were told that the abductors originally targeted my friend and me, just that on their planned day, they saw her and she was walking by herself so they thought she was an easier target. 

In the 80s, two little girls around the corner from us were killed in the woods. The next year, my neighbor and I walked to kindergarten by ourselves.  
Then I spent my entire childhood roaming (different) woods every summer, checking in at mealtimes and curfew.

Ive never asked my mom about her thought process at the time. I mean, the guy WAS caught, so there’s that.

With my own kids, I worry more about bears and coyotes than people. I know there are dangerous people, but we still have lives to live. We take safety precautions, have plans, discuss them, etc.   
I know firefighters and EMTs get hurt and even die, but I stand my kids’ choices anyway.  
I know how frequent car accidents are in my area, and we get in the car anyway.  
Heck, I know how long it takes police, fire, and EMS to get to my house and we live here anyway.

Life is risk. Some precautions are better than others. 

 

[Faith-manor]

This reminds of the time I was criticized heavily by a woman at church for allowing our sons, 11, 12.5, and 14 to go hiking on a popular trail on state land without an adult chaperone. The boys were experienced hikers. Knew the trail, had a compass, were only a couple miles from home, carried water and sandwiches, and had 12 mile walkie talkies with them, while Mark kept one near him as he did yardwork.

So freaking low risk. On top of which it is also common to meet a DNR officer along the way, and the Michigan DNR are just as a whole, great people.  I was just flabbergasted. 

We also had people go bananas over us taking the rocket team 8 years straight to Virginia for competition, and into D.C. every time to sight-see. During those years they learned to read city and metro maps, buy training tickets, hail taxis, etc. I think there are some folks in every generation who simply freak the hell out about allowing children to grow up. I don't think they define everyone in that generation as "helicopter parenting". I also think that there is a wide range of options for allowing kids to exercise independence, but it varies widely as parents choose the things they prioritize or emphasize. So some will decide to be hands off about one thing like homework while another supervises that but allows the kids free range of the neighborhood.

In general, I do think many children and young adults spend too much time on screens (well aware of the irony that I am on a screen right now) and especially social media. So much social media is toxic, and contributes to immaturity and illogical thinking.

[Heartstrings]

I’m sitting in a waiting room and being reminded how early all of this starts.  I think being “an active parent” is misunderstood by many as to mean constant hectoring and pestering of the child.  In order to avoid being seen as negligent the parent follows the child around with constant reprimands.  So many try to hold tiny tiny people to impossible standards.  Toddlers can’t sit still in a chair for hours, but it would “look bad” to be seen letting them get up.  It is more acceptable to be seen nagging and fussing after the kids than letting them walk around and act in an age appropriate way.  A lot of this helicoptering is more about appearances than actual fear or worry about safety.  

[TechWife]

I think mental health is complicated. There are many contributing factors. This reminds me of the old habit of blaming everything on the mother, though. 
 

I recognize that I am speaking in generalities below. It’s okay. Generalities are legitimate ways of evaluating situations. 

As a parent of an adult, I can honestly say “you’re da**ed if you do and da**ed if you don’t.” When my son was young the professionals told us to keep them busy so they wouldn’t have time to get in trouble. We were told to be careful of who we let them hang around so they wouldn’t fall in with the “bad crowd.” We were told they should strive for the highest level of academics they could attain, so AP classes became the norm and teens no longer had time to work a part time job or even to babysit. Now people, including professionals, remark on poor social skills, lack of initiative,  lack of creativity, and poor work ethic among young adults.

Young adults are arriving at college already burned out on college work, which they shouldn’t have been expected to do anyway. They are not even aware of how the wider world works on a basic level.  Throw in an ever increasing awareness of world events because they are at an age where they start looking beyond their own belly buttons with something other than getting a good grade in mind. What did they think was going to happen when, on their recommendations, they were raised in an artificial environment?

I refuse to recommend any parenting books, or any marriage books, for that matter. They are all a load of bull. 

Edited December 27, 2023 by TechWife

[SKL]

I just realized this whole topic is Understood Betsy.

[Terabith]

1 hour ago, SKL said:

I just realized this whole topic is Understood Betsy.

Yes! 

[Clarita]

1 hour ago, TechWife said:

As a parent of an adult, I can honestly say “you’re da**ed if you do and da**ed if you don’t.” When my son was young the professionals told us to keep them busy so they wouldn’t have time to get in trouble. We were told to be careful of who we let them hang around so they wouldn’t fall in with the “bad crowd.” We were told they should strive for the highest level of academics they could attain, so AP classes became the norm and teens no longer had time to work a part time job or even to babysit. Now people, including professionals, remark on poor social skills, lack of initiative,  lack of creativity, and poor work ethic among young adults.

Let's also remember that while it's great and all to say ideally as a society we shouldn't push kids so hard in school to get into college to get a career, there is a whole lot of  people I know who make big salaries in their careers who do feel like they did have to jump through all those hoops to get to where they are today.

The conclusion of this article is also not saying it's on the parent (even though the title sure seems like it),  but that our society also has to make provisions to make it happen. The ideal is not just taking risks and hoping your child is one that survives, the ideal is a community will look out for it's children and at least tries to make sure children aren't harmed. 

[Ausmumof3]

2 hours ago, SKL said:

I just realized this whole topic is Understood Betsy.

I must be the only homeschooler around that really didn’t like that book! 

[Ausmumof3]

45 minutes ago, Clarita said:

Let's also remember that while it's great and all to say ideally as a society we shouldn't push kids so hard in school to get into college to get a career, there is a whole lot of  people I know who make big salaries in their careers who do feel like they did have to jump through all those hoops to get to where they are today.

The conclusion of this article is also not saying it's on the parent (even though the title sure seems like it),  but that our society also has to make provisions to make it happen. The ideal is not just taking risks and hoping your child is one that survives, the ideal is a community will look out for it's children and at least tries to make sure children aren't harmed. 

Yes, good point. Society is really not into helping with child raising anymore. (Or they are in terms of structured stuff like maternity leave and paid childcare but not just helping out). 
 

[Ginevra]

On 12/26/2023 at 12:41 PM, Farrar said:

Parent doesn't think kid is ready for independent task (imagine any specific independent thing) so they don't allow it.
Kid gets anxious about independent task.
Parent sees the anxiety and excuses kid from doing independent task even when they feel it's age appropriate.
Kid gets more anxious as they never had to do the independent task in question.
Parent realizes that now kid is super old to be doing independent task for the first time and somehow it's become a THING. Instead of forcing them to do it, they are now stuck in a coddling and supporting kid's anxiety role.
Kid experiences anxiety about the task, but also now questions their abilities in a wide array of situations. After all, they can't do independent task, so they begin to develop a picture of themselves that says they're helpless.

I agree that this trajectory happens often, but I would add this into the mix: the parental anxiety existing in the first place gets communicated to the child. So, parent doesn’t want the kid to turn on the stove because they may burn themselves or overheat the pan and ruin it or fail to clean the stove properly afterwards, which scratches the glass cooktop surface. Or they are simply afraid that this will happen. And so it goes with many tasks: afraid they will ruin the load of laundry because there was a pen in a pocket; afraid they will fall from the top of the playground equipment so they don’t permit the climbing; afraid to let them be responsible for an animal because they will forget to give the rabbit water and it will die. And so on. And the message that gets communicated to the poor kiddo is, “Let me/us parents do these things and not you because you might cause a bad outcome.” 
 

And then, the rest of Farrar’s sequence pans out just like that. 

[Ausmumof3]

11 minutes ago, Ginevra said:

I agree that this trajectory happens often, but I would add this into the mix: the parental anxiety existing in the first place gets communicated to the child. So, parent doesn’t want the kid to turn on the stove because they may burn themselves or overheat the pan and ruin it or fail to clean the stove properly afterwards, which scratches the glass cooktop surface. Or they are simply afraid that this will happen. And so it goes with many tasks: afraid they will ruin the load of laundry because there was a pen in a pocket; afraid they will fall from the top of the playground equipment so they don’t permit the climbing; afraid to let them be responsible for an animal because they will forget to give the rabbit water and it will die. And so on. And the message that gets communicated to the poor kiddo is, “Let me/us parents do these things and not you because you might cause a bad outcome.” 
 

And then, the rest of Farrar’s sequence pans out just like that. 

Sometimes this is kid-driven. My youngest is like this but my oldest two weren’t at all. He just didn’t have great situational awareness so I was more anxious because he was more likely to mess up. Now I’m giving him a push to just try things.

It can also be a bit situational. Family-wise we were a bit messy and at capacity when DS was in the age where I let the other kids do stuff. So there wasn’t much space for fixing things if he messed up, and it was more of a disaster. 
 

Which kind of goes back to my original thread. Being able to try and fail is actually a privilege. If there’s not enough food to go around you don’t want someone burning the porridge. If everyone is working flat out, no one has time to deal with the fall out of glass getting broken. If you don’t have good access to medical care, you don’t want to risk a broken bone. 

Edited December 27, 2023 by Ausmumof3

[Ginevra]

Yes, Ausmum; that’s true. My parents were of meager means and I think this happened often for this reason. 

[TechWife]

2 hours ago, Clarita said:

Let's also remember that while it's great and all to say ideally as a society we shouldn't push kids so hard in school to get into college to get a career, there is a whole lot of  people I know who make big salaries in their careers who do feel like they did have to jump through all those hoops to get to where they are today.

The conclusion of this article is also not saying it's on the parent (even though the title sure seems like it),  but that our society also has to make provisions to make it happen. The ideal is not just taking risks and hoping your child is one that survives, the ideal is a community will look out for it's children and at least tries to make sure children aren't harmed. 

What other people have to do or don’t do is irrelevant to the fact that students doing college level work in their high school years is developmentally inappropriate for most of them.

In any case, I also know people who have gotten to some really impressive places without the AP classes or jumping through hoops while jumping over people who did. Talent and skill counts far more than high school and college level achievements very quickly in the non academic world.

 

Edited December 28, 2023 by TechWife

[TechWife]

47 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:

Yes, good point. Society is really not into helping with child raising anymore. (Or they are in terms of structured stuff like maternity leave and paid childcare but not just helping out). 
 

No maternity leave requirements or paid child care in the US, sadly. 

[kathyl]

1 hour ago, Ausmumof3 said:

I must be the only homeschooler around that really didn’t like that book! 

I had never heard of it.  I had to go to Wiki and read about it. 

 

12 hours ago, Carrie12345 said:

....

With my own kids, I worry more about bears and coyotes than people. I know there are dangerous people, but we still have lives to live. We take safety precautions, have plans, discuss them, etc.   
I know firefighters and EMTs get hurt and even die, but I stand my kids’ choices anyway.  
I know how frequent car accidents are in my area, and we get in the car anyway.  
Heck, I know how long it takes police, fire, and EMS to get to my house and we live here anyway.

Life is risk. Some precautions are better than others. 

 

lol When we lived in the woods with the (black) bears and tons of wildlife, I used to tell my kids (jokingly, sorta) the most dangerous things in the forest were the people.  

[Ausmumof3]

54 minutes ago, TechWife said:

No maternity leave requirements or paid child care in the US, sadly. 

There was nothing when I had mine - but a nice $5000 one of baby bonus which helped with set up costs and nappies. Now there’s a minimum paid parental leave and partly paid childcare. I have mixed feelings about it because it makes families more likely to choose to return to work sooner (there’s a work requirement so if you plan to have two or more close in age kids you have to start working at least part time fairly quickly to qualify). And I’m pretty sure at least some families would be better off if they have the paid child care as some kind of family support and stayed home with the kids a bit longer. 
 

But obviously for many it’s a lifeline and I’m glad it’s there for those who absolutely need it. 

[SKL]

1 hour ago, Ausmumof3 said:

Sometimes this is kid-driven. My youngest is like this but my oldest two weren’t at all. He just didn’t have great situational awareness so I was more anxious because he was more likely to mess up. Now I’m giving him a push to just try things.

It can also be a bit situational. Family-wise we were a bit messy and at capacity when DS was in the age where I let the other kids do stuff. So there wasn’t much space for fixing things if he messed up, and it was more of a disaster. 
 

Which kind of goes back to my original thread. Being able to try and fail is actually a privilege. If there’s not enough food to go around you don’t want someone burning the porridge. If everyone is working flat out, no one has time to deal with the fall out of glass getting broken. If you don’t have good access to medical care, you don’t want to risk a broken bone. 

I have a kid who was terrified of any kind of cooking, even using the microwave, because she made a couple of mistakes that freaked her out.  Not mistakes that would burn the house down, but she has an anxiety disorder to begin with, so she overreacted.  I encouraged and even forced her to try anyway.  It's not that I was afraid she'd screw up.  I expect all kids to screw up, but it's how we learn.  Now about 2 years later, she's back to where she was before - willing to do super easy cooking.  She's similarly reluctant to do laundry etc.  It's hard to find the energy to force a kid like this, but we need to find it anyway.

My other [younger] kid is a fearless and talented cook.  But, she's the one who's afraid of advocating for herself with adults.  So, I have to force that with her.

I don't know about the privilege thing.  If we're only looking at this moment, then yes, it can cost more to let kids try.  But if we're talking about life, the cost of pushing it past a developmentally appropriate age racks up.  For example, using public transportation vs. having to take the kid / young adult everywhere.  Cooking vs. buying prepared food.  I guess to some extent, it depends on which thing we're asking our kids to try.

I don't think there was anything my low-income parents didn't let us try if it was something our household was doing anyway (like cooking, cleaning, shopping, baby care, fixing things, etc.).  Of course we didn't get to try things like interstate travel, kuz that wasn't in the budget, mistakes or not.

[Ausmumof3]

1 hour ago, SKL said:

I have a kid who was terrified of any kind of cooking, even using the microwave, because she made a couple of mistakes that freaked her out.  Not mistakes that would burn the house down, but she has an anxiety disorder to begin with, so she overreacted.  I encouraged and even forced her to try anyway.  It's not that I was afraid she'd screw up.  I expect all kids to screw up, but it's how we learn.  Now about 2 years later, she's back to where she was before - willing to do super easy cooking.  She's similarly reluctant to do laundry etc.  It's hard to find the energy to force a kid like this, but we need to find it anyway.

My other [younger] kid is a fearless and talented cook.  But, she's the one who's afraid of advocating for herself with adults.  So, I have to force that with her.

I don't know about the privilege thing.  If we're only looking at this moment, then yes, it can cost more to let kids try.  But if we're talking about life, the cost of pushing it past a developmentally appropriate age racks up.  For example, using public transportation vs. having to take the kid / young adult everywhere.  Cooking vs. buying prepared food.  I guess to some extent, it depends on which thing we're asking our kids to try.

I don't think there was anything my low-income parents didn't let us try if it was something our household was doing anyway (like cooking, cleaning, shopping, baby care, fixing things, etc.).  Of course we didn't get to try things like interstate travel, kuz that wasn't in the budget, mistakes or not.

Yeah it’s complicated. I have a friend who was much more restrictive with her kids around kitchen stuff etc than I was because their family circumstances were so tight. She couldn’t afford them to just prepare a snack or a salad or something because they wanted to. Her kids have turned out super capable though because when they were older she taught them how to do stuff systematically and carefully. There’s no way I could teach mine the way she did, so they learned by having a go and trial and error. And of course there’s the flip side where less privilege equals more risk because parents aren’t capable of protecting the kids. Mostly we’re all just doing the best we can with our set of circumstances.

[Laura Corin]

7 hours ago, TechWife said:

What other people have to do or don’t do is irrelevant to the fact that students doing college level work in their high school years is developmentally inappropriate for most of them.

 

I'm not sure about this. AP level classes are roughly equivalent in level to the A-levels that are necessary for pupils in England to be accepted into university. They are considered school--level, not university-level and no credits transfer to the university. 

Schools do not provide transcripts, so the exam results are the only criteria.  University drop out levels are fairly low, so I don't think there is mass burn out.

[regentrude]

10 hours ago, TechWife said:

What other people have to do or don’t do is irrelevant to the fact that students doing college level work in their high school years is developmentally inappropriate for most of them.

I don't think that is true. Other countries routinely cover material in highschool that is labeled "college" level in the US.

For example, the algebra based "college physics" course I teach compares roughly to what we did in 10th grade, and most "college composition" courses cover basic language mechanics that should have been dealt with by 9th grade.

College has become a place for remediating a highschool education that demands far less from its students than what kids in other developed countries are capable of learning. 

What is developmentally inappropriate is the early push for academics in elementary school. It's also useless,  especially when coupled with the warehousing without appropriate challenge that follows it in the middle grades.

Edited December 28, 2023 by regentrude

[DawnM]

This might be a little off topic, but I just read something yesterday about how the generation from ages 0-13 are called Gen Alfa and they won't listen to anyone.   The kids are not listening to any adult and when told to sit down in class (for example) the kids are looking at the teacher and saying, "My mom says I don't have to listen to you" and they are walking away and not doing what they are told, even when it involves safety.

This is really scary to me.   For everyone.  

[Faith-manor]

16 hours ago, Clarita said:

Let's also remember that while it's great and all to say ideally as a society we shouldn't push kids so hard in school to get into college to get a career, there is a whole lot of  people I know who make big salaries in their careers who do feel like they did have to jump through all those hoops to get to where they are today.

The conclusion of this article is also not saying it's on the parent (even though the title sure seems like it),  but that our society also has to make provisions to make it happen. The ideal is not just taking risks and hoping your child is one that survives, the ideal is a community will look out for it's children and at least tries to make sure children aren't harmed. 

And the rubber really meets the road here because we don't have much sense of community. We just don't. The rugged individualistic delusion is so strong in this country. I think that this alone is a big contributor to the things that all our youth, well, ail all of us. It is a HARD bubble to burst.

[Farrar]

What I see that's developmentally inappropriate in American high schools isn't the content or skill level of AP courses, but rather the volume of work and the amount of executive functioning. A-levels were mentioned, so that's a great comparison. Most students are taking 3-4 of those, as I understand it. A few students are doing more, but not like, 12. But American kids at top high schools are routinely pressured to do 5-6 AP courses a year for two years in a row. A levels let students specialize a bit. But American kids who want really competitive colleges aren't allowed to do that. They must be generalists who max out whatever their school offers. The more the school offers, the more they have to do to get ahead. Colleges abroad also don't typically care about activities. But American colleges care a lot. So kids abroad choose activities that they like to do or that speak to their interests. Sometimes they have very few. American kids need full on resumes, and that's in addition to the bulked up coursework.

Obviously there's a lot more going on than that in American education. That's not the only strand of what makes American schools hard on kids. And not every school is offering that many AP's or activities. Plenty of American schools are struggling in a bunch of other ways. But the kids I know around me mostly attend those types of schools and it's brutal. 

In terms of this conversation, what I see is a lot of parents who end up picking up the slack for their overwhelmed kids. A kid who has more on their plate than the parent in terms of commitments doesn't have time to do chores or even prioritize learning to do their own laundry or getting a driver's license. So parents end up shuffling them around and picking up after them. And they think, ugh, I need my kid to learn to do these things and exert some independence... But then when it's 10 pm and the kid needs a clean uniform the next day for their varsity sport and the parent wants to force them to go do the laundry and make their lunch for the next day... the kid is meanwhile neck deep in an essay and a project and a million other things that will impact their grades. So mom (let's be real, it's probably the mom) ends up doing those tasks for them.

[Farrar]

16 hours ago, Ginevra said:

I agree that this trajectory happens often, but I would add this into the mix: the parental anxiety existing in the first place gets communicated to the child.

Totally agreed. And I think that while sometimes the anxiety is just innate (it's genetic, it's environmental from factors outside the parent's control...) a lot of parents don't see the ways they're setting themselves up for this pattern by introducing the anxiety.

[Farrar]

Adding another thought to my post about the absurdity of what we expect of our high schoolers. In Florida, where dual enrollment is pretty common and growing, the department of education unhelpfully decided to determine exactly how many high school credits each dual enrollment course is worth. We expect college students to carry between 12-16 credits per semester. So, like 4-5 classes, maybe 6 if the student has these 1-2 credit type requirements. That keeps a college student on track to graduate in four years in pretty much any institution and is legally defined as full time for financial aid purposes.

In Florida, each course is defined as a half credit only. So for a high school student to take all their coursework through dual enrollment, they'd need to do 6-7 classes per semester. Not 4 like a lot of actual college students. A minimum of 6. I think obviously the department of education didn't fully think it out. But also, this is our crazy thinking about high schoolers. We pile on them like mad. It's not that those 100-level gen ed classes are that hard necessarily. But they take the finite resource of time.

[SKL]

The freakout over how we compare to other countries is one of the reasons why high school is not developmentally appropriate for the average child.

There's a whole thread about APs on the high school board.  My beef is that AP has taken the place of "college prep" for grades 11-12.  Let's take English for example.  There are 3 options in our public school:  (a) general English, which is designed for kids who aren't college bound; (b) AP English, which purports to teach at the college level; and (c) actual college English (DE).  There's nothing for college bound kids who just want to prepare for college level work.  So they take AP, even though it isn't a fit.  My other beef is that schools push AP without much consideration for what the individual child actually needs.  Just because you're "interested in" a career related to life science doesn't mean that college-level biotech should be your 11th grade science course.  (Personal rant over.)

I don't know how it is in other countries, but here, you need a bachelor's degree (maybe even a master's) to do a lot of things that aren't super intellectual.  So yes, that puts pressure on kids who aren't born geniuses.

[SKL]

1 hour ago, Farrar said:

In terms of this conversation, what I see is a lot of parents who end up picking up the slack for their overwhelmed kids. A kid who has more on their plate than the parent in terms of commitments doesn't have time to do chores or even prioritize learning to do their own laundry or getting a driver's license. So parents end up shuffling them around and picking up after them. And they think, ugh, I need my kid to learn to do these things and exert some independence... But then when it's 10 pm and the kid needs a clean uniform the next day for their varsity sport and the parent wants to force them to go do the laundry and make their lunch for the next day... the kid is meanwhile neck deep in an essay and a project and a million other things that will impact their grades. So mom (let's be real, it's probably the mom) ends up doing those tasks for them.

Yes, that would be me, to some extent.  (I think the kids play on this also.)

But then again, they think "independence" means "well why do you care what my bedroom looks like?"

[SKL]

1 hour ago, Faith-manor said:

And the rubber really meets the road here because we don't have much sense of community. We just don't. The rugged individualistic delusion is so strong in this country. I think that this alone is a big contributor to the things that all our youth, well, ail all of us. It is a HARD bubble to burst.

It's funny because there was plenty of community in past generations, here in the USA.

My current neighborhood, compared to the one where I lived as a kid, has a lot fewer kids (especially outside) and a lot more space between houses.  I have literally never seen a child (other than mine) playing outside here without a parent present; and even with a parent present (usually a tot), it's rare.

I think that there's a lot less interest in acting like a "community" when it's just a bunch of adults with little in common.  I've lived here nearly 30 years but don't know most of my neighbors at all.  I've never been inside any of their houses.  We've helped each other out with small things (like when the guy next door locked himself out of his house), we say "hi, nice dog," but that's pretty much it.  And I think we're all nice people.  We just have totally separate lives.

I do think that if any of my neighbors saw anything amiss with my kids, they would do something about it; as would I if I saw anything amiss.  It just hardly ever happens.