Should everyone go gluten-free?

[prairiewindmomma]

Glyphosate passes the blood brain barrier in in vitro models and has a neuroinflammatory effect by raising tnf-a levels. When dd was dx’d with brain cancer, there was a cancer cluster in our farming community at the same time. We had a multipage survey done about our exposure levels, and some meta studies like this one: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8700205/ show an association even if some specific studies have not shown a causative link between adult brain cancer and glyphosate.

We moved away and now drink reverse osmosis filtered water, run air purifiers, try to be as plastic and pesticide free as we can, and live pretty cleanly. There is so much toxic exposure from nearly all of life that we just try to manage what we can…better to minimize what we can, iykwim, in hopes of reducing the overall load.

[popmom]

really stupid question...what does GE stand for? Genetically engineered?

Edited November 3, 2023 by popmom

[lewelma]

2 minutes ago, popmom said:

Wait...So does this mean that the organic label means nothing? Because it is not technically a pesticide?

Oh wait, I'm reading this differently once I reread it. Pesticide vs herbicide is kind of not a word used in the lit. They use Biocide, because chemicals like glyphosate kill plants, microorganisms (like worms), and bacteria, but do NOT harm animals directly. If organic says no pesticides, they also mean no herbicides I would assume. 

[lewelma]

Yes GE = Genetically engineered. There are many types of GE. Roundup ready is just one. GE crops are not a problem for human health; rather it is the industrial farming practices used with GE crops that are the problem. 

[prairiewindmomma]

1 minute ago, lewelma said:

I don't know about the organic label in the USA. 98% of corn in the USA is roundup ready, but that leaves 2% for organic. That is totally possible. Organic in NZ is not GE by definition, and roundup ready is one type of GE. 

While a small portion of dent corn goes to making masa, the majority of it goes to animal feed, plastics, and ethanol. 
 

Maseca has tested positive for glyphosate before, but there are organic masa harinas out there for purchase. King Arthur has one, and there are also heritage varieties than have been nixtamalized (is that how you say it in English?)

[popmom]

A bit of levity to the discussion...

My dd just ask me if I'm going to bed, and I said no I'm discussing the dangers of GMO and glyphosate in our crops on the WTM forum.

She responded, "Sounds like you'd be better off going to bed." 

lol

Edited November 3, 2023 by popmom

[lewelma]

Just now, prairiewindmomma said:

While a small portion of dent corn goes to making masa, the majority of it goes to animal feed, plastics, and ethanol. 
 

Maseca has tested positive for glyphosate before, but there are organic masa harinas out there for purchase. King Arthur has one, and there are also heritage varieties than have been nixtamalized (is that how you say it in English?)

I have very limited access to products here in the back end of the supply chain.  It is maseca or nothing for nixtamalized corn. So I've switched to quinoa. 

[prairiewindmomma]

Palouse is a non-GMO, non-chemical dessicants, organic, sustainable farms certified brand that I trust and that sells nationally online, fwiw. It’s one of the few shops with clean chickpeas.

[lewelma]

1 minute ago, popmom said:

A bit of levity to the discussion...

My dd just ask me if I'm going to bed, and I said no I'm discussing the dangers of GMO and glyphosate in our crops.

She responded, "Sounds like you'd be better off going to bed." 

lol

Boy, when I was doing all the reading and writing the scientific summary for the application to get it banned, it was all I talked about.  Very distressing. Very.

[prairiewindmomma]

Was aiming that at popmom; sorry your shopping is limited, lewelma.

[prairiewindmomma]

Just now, lewelma said:

Boy, when I was doing all the reading and writing the scientific summary for the application to get it banned, it was all I talked about.  Very distressing. Very.

You are fighting a good fight. Corporations that fund politicians won here.

[popmom]

Just now, prairiewindmomma said:

Was aiming that at popmom; sorry your shopping is limited, lewelma.

Yes--I am familiar with Palouse. I figure Azure is more affordable factoring in shipping etc. but I will definitely revisit that.

[lewelma]

Just now, prairiewindmomma said:

Was aiming that at popmom; sorry your shopping is limited, lewelma.

yup. me too. But if we can ban glyphosate!!!! We are an island, so its not blowing in or crossing borders in the ground water.

Crossing fingers. I'll let you know if we win. Not likely, but they lawyers plan to litigate it in the Environment court if we lose. They've got a billionaire backer, so we have the money to fight!

[popmom]

12 minutes ago, lewelma said:

I have very limited access to products here in the back end of the supply chain.  It is maseca or nothing for nixtamalized corn. So I've switched to quinoa. 

Interesting that I just learned of nixtamalization when placing this order with Azure. I kept seeing the term in the reviews. Many people buy their corn and nixtamalize it themselves. Learn something new everyday.

@lewelma I am so grateful for the work you are doing! 

Edited November 3, 2023 by popmom

[lewelma]

2 minutes ago, popmom said:

@lewelma I am so grateful for the work you are doing! 

Thanks! It did feel good to be doing something valuable outside of my little family. I'd post my research paper here so you could read it, but I don't know if I would get in trouble. 

[popmom]

Just now, lewelma said:

Thanks! It did feel good to be doing something valuable outside of my little family. I'd post my research paper here so you could read it, but I don't know if I would get in trouble. 

Can you pm it to me? I'd defintely be interested.

[Ausmumof3]

9 minutes ago, lewelma said:

yup. me too. But if we can ban glyphosate!!!! We are an island, so its not blowing in or crossing borders in the ground water.

Crossing fingers. I'll let you know if we win. Not likely, but they lawyers plan to litigate it in the Environment court if we lose. They've got a billionaire backer, so we have the money to fight!

Farming family we know 3/3 women all have had either thyroid cancer or lymphoma. My uncle who was on a farm then worked as a gardener most is his life has non-Hodgkin lymphoma. My DH doesn’t really believe me and still uses it though he’s becoming more cautious and is being very thorough in clean up process. I can’t say for sure that it’s linked but anecdotal evidence points that way here.

[prairiewindmomma]

Do you have pickling lime/calcium hydroxide in NZ? She raises a good point that if you can buy dent corn or popcorn, you could make your own nixtamalized masa. 

[lewelma]

35 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:

Farming family we know 3/3 women all have had either thyroid cancer or lymphoma. My uncle who was on a farm then worked as a gardener most is his life has non-Hodgkin lymphoma. My DH doesn’t really believe me and still uses it though he’s becoming more cautious and is being very thorough in clean up process. I can’t say for sure that it’s linked but anecdotal evidence points that way here.

yup. Its horrific. But they are currently not winning in court in the USA. 😞

[Laura Corin]

8 hours ago, Kalmia said:

There might be a second (or third or fourth) player involved, with some people having celiac disease, and other people sensitive to gluten or other additives (dough conditioners, rapid rise yeast) and still others sensitive to the herbicide glyphosate (Roundup) sprayed on conventional crops right before harvest as a desiccant. 

Yes. I only learned about use of Roundup as a dessicant recently  and have switched to organic grains where possible. 

Edited November 3, 2023 by Laura Corin

[ktgrok]

13 hours ago, popmom said:

This is what I was going to say. Add emulsifiers (carageenan??) to the list of problematic ingredients for some people. Sometimes I wonder if people who go gluten free and feel better are responding to eliminating processed foods. 

Although there are now tons of gluten free processed foods on the market, so...

ugh, carageenan kills my gut. And now they add inulin to everything, which for most people is fine and it is a great prebiotic fiber - but for some people it is AWFUL. It gives me SUCH gas and bloating and diarrhea. And it is in SO much now, from yogurt to granola bars to smoothies. 

13 hours ago, lewelma said:

I've just finished the scientific literature review for the application here in NZ to the Environmental Protection Authority to reassess glyphosate (Roundup herbicide) and potentially ban it. (My first big side hustle since starting to reorient my career after homeschooling). I summarized the impact to both the environment and human health, and the problems with the archaic assessment methodology they use which masks roundup's effects. 

In short, Roundup is used in the USA (and most countries) to dessicate wheat to make it easier to harvest. About 90% of the wheat crop in the USA is sprayed.  Because it is sprayed at harvest time (rather than during planting), glyphosate is definitely still in wheat when it is eaten (the half life is somewhere from 30 to 180 days, and that is HALF life). Glyphosate has been found the food we buy and in human gut, urine, and feces. Glyphosate is not denatured by cooking. Glyphosate kills not only plants but also kills bacteria, including the microbiome in the human gut.

So if you are having trouble with wheat, it could be because your gut bacteria cannot tolerate the impact of glyphosate. After doing this work, I have switched to organic wheat for my family.

My understanding is that the actual wheat grain part that we eat is inside the "glume" or outer covering when the crop is sprayed. And that wheat would only be sprayed AFTER it is done growing as if it was still actively drawing in nutrients/water/having cellular processes the roundup would kill it just like it does the weeds. So it is on the outside of the wheat plant, but the plant is not processing it or drawing it into the cells, and the outer covering is removed (even for whole wheat). 

Adding that we are gluten free at home most of the time because DS11 has Celiac, so either way doesn't really effect me, and I have no dog in the race or whatever, lol. 

I do think it is likely more the switch of types of wheat - there are big differences in the genetics of the shorter wheat we grow here in the US. 

But mostly, I think anyone who is considering giving up gluten first get a celiac test. Just because it is important to know HOW vigilant you need to be, and you can't do the test once you are off gluten. They sell ones on the internet now that are just a finger prick for about $99

Edited November 3, 2023 by ktgrok

[Dmmetler]

13 hours ago, lewelma said:

I've just finished the scientific literature review for the application here in NZ to the Environmental Protection Authority to reassess glyphosate (Roundup herbicide) and potentially ban it. (My first big side hustle since starting to reorient my career after homeschooling). I summarized the impact to both the environment and human health, and the problems with the archaic assessment methodology they use which masks roundup's effects. 

In short, Roundup is used in the USA (and most countries) to dessicate wheat to make it easier to harvest. About 90% of the wheat crop in the USA is sprayed.  Because it is sprayed at harvest time (rather than during planting), glyphosate is definitely still in wheat when it is eaten (the half life is somewhere from 30 to 180 days, and that is HALF life). Glyphosate has been found the food we buy and in human gut, urine, and feces. Glyphosate is not denatured by cooking. Glyphosate kills not only plants but also kills bacteria, including the microbiome in the human gut.

So if you are having trouble with wheat, it could be because your gut bacteria cannot tolerate the impact of glyphosate. After doing this work, I have switched to organic wheat for my family.

It's also been found in fish, particularly in farmed species. 

[Lady Florida.]

No. Gluten isn't inherently bad for everyone. If one has celiac, gluten intolerance, IBS, or a wheat allergy then of course they should be gluten free. Other than that there's no compelling evidence that eliminating gluten from one's diet has any health benefits. If eliminating gluten from your diet makes you feel better, go for it. I don't think any of us should be the food police telling people what they should or shouldn't eat. But from a scientific standpoint there is no reason for the entire world to go gluten free (OP did say "everyone"). Eating healthy whole grains and an otherwise balanced diet is the best way to stay healthy. 

Edited November 3, 2023 by Lady Florida.

[Corraleno]

21 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

My understanding is that the actual wheat grain part that we eat is inside the "glume" or outer covering when the crop is sprayed. And that wheat would only be sprayed AFTER it is done growing as if it was still actively drawing in nutrients/water/having cellular processes the roundup would kill it just like it does the weeds. So it is on the outside of the wheat plant, but the plant is not processing it or drawing it into the cells, and the outer covering is removed (even for whole wheat). 

But it does kill the wheat — that's the whole point of using it. It ensures that the entire field of wheat dies and dries off at the same time so it can be harvested when it's most convenient for the farmer. Glyphosate is rapidly absorbed through the leaves and stems and spreads systemically throughout the plant — that's how it works. If it just somehow stayed on the outside of the plant without being absorbed, it wouldn't have the effect it's used for.

[prairiewindmomma]

Fwiw, there are some studies that hint at glyphosate usage as a trigger for celiac disease—https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3945755/

[prairiewindmomma]

24 minutes ago, Dmmetler said:

It's also been found in fish, particularly in farmed species. 

And many of those fish have gut dysfunction similar to celiac disease. 

[prairiewindmomma]

In the news today: https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/nov/03/pesticide-regulation-cancer-bayer-roundup-law-legislation

Note that there has been very little US coverage on the pending legislation.

[Lecka]

Maybe this is off-topic, but my great-aunt died of cancer when I was a child, and everyone thought it was because they used ddt on their farm on their cows, and she was the one who applied the ddt.  
 

I don’t know if that was official. 
 

I have heard a lot about glyphosate being bad for monarch butterflies, but I hadn’t heard about these health effects, that is scary.  

[Kalmia]

1 hour ago, Corraleno said:

But it does kill the wheat — that's the whole point of using it. It ensures that the entire field of wheat dies and dries off at the same time so it can be harvested when it's most convenient for the farmer. Glyphosate is rapidly absorbed through the leaves and stems and spreads systemically throughout the plant — that's how it works. If it just somehow stayed on the outside of the plant without being absorbed, it wouldn't have the effect it's used for.

Glyphosate also enters the soil and kills the soil bacteria necessary for the ecosystem that provides the nutrients for the wheat plants. Many crops are much less nutrient dense than in the past (mostly tillage, but also herbicides). There is evidence that consumers (and their gut bacteria) may be harmed. Farmworkers absorb it through their skin and through the air they breathe in highly concentrated amounts. It runs off in rainwater and has deadly effects in amphibians in nearby ponds and streams. And why are we using it? So every stalk of wheat is exactly the same level of dryness as the ones next to it on exactly the same day for the convenience of mechanized farming? Somehow humans harvested wheat for thousands of years without Roundup... It does ripen and then dry out naturally. Seems like we are poisoning people, soil, water, and wildlife for convenience? And who profits... certainly not the farmers who are kept in a debt cycle purchasing these herbicides from major chemical companies and are often one crop away from losing their farm.

So many very harmful things are completely unnecessary, yet somehow continue to be used. 

Very interesting read:

https://www.amazon.com/What-Your-Food-Ate-Restore/dp/1324052104/ref=sr_1_1?crid=203JED4EUPSPP&keywords=what+your+soil+ate&qid=1699029041&sprefix=what+your+soil+ate%2Caps%2C120&sr=8-1

Edited November 3, 2023 by Kalmia

[Pawz4me]

2 hours ago, Lady Florida. said:

No. Gluten isn't inherently bad for everyone. If one has celiac, gluten intolerance, IBS, or a wheat allergy then of course they should be gluten free. Other than that there's no compelling evidence that eliminating gluten from one's diet has any health benefits. If eliminating gluten from your diet makes you feel better, go for it. I don't think any of us should be the food police telling people what they should or shouldn't eat. But from a scientific standpoint there is no reason for the entire world to go gluten free (OP did say "everyone"). Eating healthy whole grains and an otherwise balanced diet is the best way to stay healthy. 

Just for clarification -- Not everyone with IBS needs to be gluten free. I was diagnosed probably fifteen years ago (long enough that I've forgotten the actual timing, but I think it was around 2008) and have had many years to experiment with how different foods affect me. I have no noticeable reaction to reasonable amounts of gluten. I won't eat a huge bakery bagel or muffin, but a sandwich on a couple slices of homemade sourdough isn't a problem. What anyone with IBS can tolerate (or not) depends on their individual sensitivity to particular FODMAPs. And some gluten free items are very high in FODMAPs.

[ktgrok]

3 hours ago, Corraleno said:

But it does kill the wheat — that's the whole point of using it. It ensures that the entire field of wheat dies and dries off at the same time so it can be harvested when it's most convenient for the farmer. Glyphosate is rapidly absorbed through the leaves and stems and spreads systemically throughout the plant — that's how it works. If it just somehow stayed on the outside of the plant without being absorbed, it wouldn't have the effect it's used for.

My understanding (and this may be a bit of old info) was that it was used more to kill and thin out any other vegetation in the field, because the living weeds would keep moisture in the field, more than anything else. I did just find this, from Oklahoma State. https://extension.okstate.edu/fact-sheets/glyphosate-use-as-a-pre-harvest-treatment-not-a-risk-to-food-safety.html

Also going to throw the obligatory reminder to all of us that glyphosate replaced other, MORE dangerous chemicals, like diquat. If we ban glyphosate there will be other, more dangerous chemicals used. And that even organic doesn't mean that pesticides and herbicides were not used, it just limits which ones can be used - and that doesn't mean they are always safe. 

Edited November 3, 2023 by ktgrok

[Wildcat]

18 hours ago, lewelma said:

I've just finished the scientific literature review for the application here in NZ to the Environmental Protection Authority to reassess glyphosate (Roundup herbicide) and potentially ban it. (My first big side hustle since starting to reorient my career after homeschooling). I summarized the impact to both the environment and human health, and the problems with the archaic assessment methodology they use which masks roundup's effects. 

In short, Roundup is used in the USA (and most countries) to dessicate wheat to make it easier to harvest. About 90% of the wheat crop in the USA is sprayed.  Because it is sprayed at harvest time (rather than during planting), glyphosate is definitely still in wheat when it is eaten (the half life is somewhere from 30 to 180 days, and that is HALF life). Glyphosate has been found the food we buy and in human gut, urine, and feces. Glyphosate is not denatured by cooking. Glyphosate kills not only plants but also kills bacteria, including the microbiome in the human gut.

So if you are having trouble with wheat, it could be because your gut bacteria cannot tolerate the impact of glyphosate. After doing this work, I have switched to organic wheat for my family.

I'm glad you posted this. Two years ago, while researching a relative's GI issues, I came across lots of into about glyphosate and gluten intolerance. What I read was that, in addition to it killing off the gut bacteria, the chemical composition of glyphosate is so similar to the composition of gluten that the body starts to recognize gluten as an enemy and reacts to that, as well. Hence, people think they are gluten sensitive or intolerant. That's a very dumbed-down explanation, but it was eye-opening.

I asked my relative if they would be willing to experiment on themselves with organic flour and received an affirmative, so I started baking right away. The short of it is that the relative can eat all the organic breads, cookies, pastas, AND imported baked goods from Italy & France (where glyphosate is banned) they want without issue, but a single slice of traditional glyphosate-laden bread causes a major GI issue lasting several hours.

 

13 hours ago, lewelma said:

Plus drinking water and dust in the air.  You are not escaping glyphosate, but you can reduce exposure. 

One paper I read said it was found in the rain that fell on farms, too, as there is so much of it that it's everywhere, as you said.

I'd say more, but it would venture into politics.

[Corraleno]

30 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

My understanding (and this may be a bit of old info) was that it was used more to kill and thin out any other vegetation in the field, because the living weeds would keep moisture in the field, more than anything else. I did just find this, from Oklahoma State. https://extension.okstate.edu/fact-sheets/glyphosate-use-as-a-pre-harvest-treatment-not-a-risk-to-food-safety.html

Assuring consumers that there's no glyphosate residue on the outside of the wheat kernel because it's covered when the plants are sprayed is disingenuous — it's a systemic herbicide, it's rapidly absorbed into and distributed throughout the plant. The process of absorbing and processing the toxin to the point that the plant is totally dead generally takes about a week, and glyphosate is sprayed 7-14 days before harvest. It does kill off any weeds that are growing at the time, which is what it's FDA approved for, but the main reason it's used right before harvest is an off-label use — it just "happens" to also kill the wheat, all at the same time, which allows the farmer to schedule harvest exactly 7 days from spraying. It's the agricultural equivalent of a scheduled c-section.

Virtually all nonorganic wheat products contain glyphosate residues — it's worse than any other food crop:
"The percentage of samples with detected residues per type of food decreased in the order: wheat bran (95%) > crackers (91%) > cream of wheat (87%) > cookies (82%) > pasta (79%) > flour (77%) > couscous (76%) > germ (63%) > gluten/wheat berries/wheatlets (48%) > kamut and spelt (45%) > bulgur (37%). The highest observed glyphosate level per food product type ranged from 0.06 ppm in kamut/spelt grains to 8.5 in wheat bran. This is consistent with the fact that the bran is on the outside of the plant and would have the greatest exposure to any glyphosate applied. Where products were made with whole wheat flour or incorporated bran, the levels of glyphosate were higher (data not shown). The percentage of samples with detected residues for wheat (alone or in combination) was much higher than that for any other product..."
Journal of Agricultural and Food Chemistry

[busymama7]

Where is everyone buying organic flour and wheat berries? For reasonable prices etc. I have a wheat grinder but also use white flour for some things.  

[Corraleno]

Pro-glyphosate organizations also like to claim that residues in food are not dangerous because the level in one serving of any particular food is below the FDA maximum, but the levels set by the FDA are probably too high to begin with, and they do not take into account the cumulative effect of having a huge percentage of the food we eat (including baby food) containing glyphosate residues. So the residue in your morning bowl of Cheerios may be below the FDA maximum, but then add the residue in the bread you have for lunch, and the hummus and tortilla chips you snack on, and the pasta you have for dinner, and even the trace amounts in meat, dairy, vegetables, etc.

In addition to killing off your gut microbes and causing cancer, it's also a neurotoxin:

"In this systematic review, we investigate the current state of our knowledge related to the effects of this pesticide on the nervous system of various animal species and humans. The information provided indicates that exposure to glyphosate or its commercial formulations induces several neurotoxic effects. It has been shown that exposure to this pesticide during the early stages of life can seriously affect normal cell development by deregulating some of the signaling pathways involved in this process, leading to alterations in differentiation, neuronal growth, and myelination. Glyphosate also seems to exert a significant toxic effect on neurotransmission and to induce oxidative stress, neuroinflammation and mitochondrial dysfunction, processes that lead to neuronal death due to autophagy, necrosis, or apoptosis, as well as the appearance of behavioral and motor disorders. The doses of glyphosate that produce these neurotoxic effects vary widely but are lower than the limits set by regulatory agencies. Although there are important discrepancies between the analyzed findings, it is unequivocal that exposure to glyphosate produces important alterations in the structure and function of the nervous system of humans, rodents, fish, and invertebrates."

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9101768/

[lewelma]

39 minutes ago, Wildcat said:

I asked my relative if they would be willing to experiment on themselves with organic flour and received an affirmative, so I started baking right away. The short of it is that the relative can eat all the organic breads, cookies, pastas, AND imported baked goods from Italy & France (where glyphosate is banned) they want without issue, but a single slice of traditional glyphosate-laden bread causes a major GI issue lasting several hours.

The link between glyphosate and gluten intolerance is not strong in the literature, but there have not been a lot of studies.  But it absolutely kills your gut bacteria, that is strongly established.

My dh has asked if I want to try organic flour, to see if it is the glyphosate that does me in. But I'm a bit skittish. Glad it worked for your friend. 

FYI, I don't think glyphosate is banned in Italy and France from farm use, only domestic use is banned as far as I know. However, the laws are nuanced, so it would be hard to know what crop they were using it on, how much they were using, what the half life is (this varies quite a bit), and how long between application and when you eat it.  The half life is key.  You don't eat it, if it has been long enough to half about 6 times. 100, 50, 25, 12.5, 6.25, 3.1, 1.5%. If the half life is 30 days, that is somewhat reasonable depending on the crop. If it is 180 days, it is not.  

My take away from my research is that the impact on human health is sort of bad, but the impact to the environment is catastrophic. 

[fairfarmhand]

14 hours ago, popmom said:

Wait...So does this mean that the organic label means nothing? Because it is not technically a pesticide?

 

14 hours ago, lewelma said:

Oh wait, I'm reading this differently once I reread it. Pesticide vs herbicide is kind of not a word used in the lit. They use Biocide, because chemicals like glyphosate kill plants, microorganisms (like worms), and bacteria, but do NOT harm animals directly. If organic says no pesticides, they also mean no herbicides I would assume. 

If you label products as organic, there is a long list of things that you cannot use at all on the farm. (Not just on the crops, but on the farm as a whole) Glyphosate is one of these. So a farm that sells product as organic can't even use Roundup to spray random weeds in the cracks of a paved driveway. the process is supposed to be that stringent.

[lewelma]

29 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

Pro-glyphosate organizations also like to claim that residues in food are not dangerous because the level in one serving of any particular food is below the FDA maximum, but the levels set by the FDA are probably too high to begin with, and they do not take into account the cumulative effect of having a huge percentage of the food we eat (including baby food) containing glyphosate residues. So the residue in your morning bowl of Cheerios may be below the FDA maximum, but then add the residue in the bread you have for lunch, and the hummus and tortilla chips you snack on, and the pasta you have for dinner, and even the trace amounts in meat, dairy, vegetables, etc.

In addition to killing off your gut microbes and causing cancer, it's also a neurotoxin:

"In this systematic review, we investigate the current state of our knowledge related to the effects of this pesticide on the nervous system of various animal species and humans. The information provided indicates that exposure to glyphosate or its commercial formulations induces several neurotoxic effects. It has been shown that exposure to this pesticide during the early stages of life can seriously affect normal cell development by deregulating some of the signaling pathways involved in this process, leading to alterations in differentiation, neuronal growth, and myelination. Glyphosate also seems to exert a significant toxic effect on neurotransmission and to induce oxidative stress, neuroinflammation and mitochondrial dysfunction, processes that lead to neuronal death due to autophagy, necrosis, or apoptosis, as well as the appearance of behavioral and motor disorders. The doses of glyphosate that produce these neurotoxic effects vary widely but are lower than the limits set by regulatory agencies. Although there are important discrepancies between the analyzed findings, it is unequivocal that exposure to glyphosate produces important alterations in the structure and function of the nervous system of humans, rodents, fish, and invertebrates."

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9101768/

The assessment of glyphosate is archaic. They are currently testing glyphosate in isolation, not how it exists in the different formulations that are on the market (like 500 different herbicide formuations). The 'inactive' ingredients are used to increase the glyphosate uptake. So when they test glyphosate in isolation to evaluate its negative impact, the herbicide is not being taken up to the extent that it does in the real product formulation. This obscures its true effect.  The assessment methodologies are simply wrong. 

Edited November 3, 2023 by lewelma

[prairiewindmomma]

8 minutes ago, busymama7 said:

Where is everyone buying organic flour and wheat berries? For reasonable prices etc. I have a wheat grinder but also use white flour for some things.  

My Winco (grocery store) sells organic non-GMO white wheat berries in 25# bags.  

When I lived in the Midwest, I bought my organic wheat from Wal-Mart. The manager there special ordered it in because there were a few of us who all ground our own wheat. The price was about half of what it is to order it online for home delivery. Before the Walmart ordered in for me, I ordered from Pleasant Hill Grain. I just looked at their pricing, though, and their super pails (43#) are now $145 which is crazy.

Azure is selling 50# bags for $37, which is about what I pay at Winco. Azure is local to me also.

Bob's Red Mill has organic oats and a lot of grains.  They are also local to me, but a lot of stores carry them and I think you can still order online.

Palouse and Ancient Grains are a couple of other places that I price through. 

I usually do not buy flour because so many nutrients are lost shortly after grinding. If I do, I usually buy the King Arthur organic stuff, which is easy to find in every grocery store for me.

[lewelma]

Glyphosate was considered a much better herbicide than DDT, which it replaced in the 1970s.  Glyphosate does break down over time, whereas DDT doesn't. In 2023, in Europe, they tested soil for the different herbicides, and number 1 was still DDT!  Number 2 was Glyphosate. The main problem with Glyphosate now is that it is so widely and heavily used in the 2 specific industrial farming practices - desiccating the wheat crop and roundup ready crops.  Glyphosate with limited, targeted use is generally OK.

Me personally, I use a paint-on application of glyphosate to kill the stems of noxious weeds (specifically blackberry here in NZ which is spreading like wildfire and killing off indigenous plants). This is a safe use, and very different than the wide-spread industrial spraying of fields. 

[busymama7]

5 minutes ago, prairiewindmomma said:

My Winco (grocery store) sells organic non-GMO white wheat berries in 25# bags.  

When I lived in the Midwest, I bought my organic wheat from Wal-Mart. The manager there special ordered it in because there were a few of us who all ground our own wheat. The price was about half of what it is to order it online for home delivery. Before the Walmart ordered in for me, I ordered from Pleasant Hill Grain. I just looked at their pricing, though, and their super pails (43#) are now $145 which is crazy.

Azure is selling 50# bags for $37, which is about what I pay at Winco. Azure is local to me also.

Bob's Red Mill has organic oats and a lot of grains.  They are also local to me, but a lot of stores carry them and I think you can still order online.

Palouse and Ancient Grains are a couple of other places that I price through. 

I usually do not buy flour because so many nutrients are lost shortly after grinding. If I do, I usually buy the King Arthur organic stuff, which is easy to find in every grocery store for me.

Thank you. We have WinCo here and I usually get my wheat from there so that would be an easy enough change.   

There are just things I prefer with white flour 😬. I try to do at least 1/3 fresh ground though still.    Ive had a wheat grinder for 20+ years and still don't love whole wheat biscuits and things like that.  

[prairiewindmomma]

Winco has sometimes had outages of the organic wheat berries (they usually have the standard), but if you ask the bulk manager, they are usually pretty helpful about letting you know the stock status.  Sometimes you can order from the manager and just do a pickup when it comes in from the central warehouse. I will buy several bags when it is in and then usually do the dry ice/5 gallon bucket thing to my wheat in storage.  I have a gamma seal lid on the wheat bucket that I'm currently drawing from.  I usually rinse my wheat or will sometimes lightly sprout my wheat because I have mixed feelings about storing in plastic, but I haven't found a good solution to that. I don't want to line my buckets in mylar either.

[popmom]

3 hours ago, busymama7 said:

Where is everyone buying organic flour and wheat berries? For reasonable prices etc. I have a wheat grinder but also use white flour for some things.  

I get mine from Azure. They are not local, but they have a "drop" in my community. Also in the southeast--there is Bread Beckers. They have a co-op. 

[Martha in GA]

2 hours ago, busymama7 said:

There are just things I prefer with white flour 😬. I try to do at least 1/3 fresh ground though still.    Ive had a wheat grinder for 20+ years and still don't love whole wheat biscuits and things like that.  

Are you using red wheat berries? I think the white wheat berries make flour that has a lighter texture/taste. I get my wheat berries from Azure (I'm a drop coordinator in my area). I make much less bread than I used to, but I have switched to using spelt. I know people who only use Einkhorn.

[popmom]

1 minute ago, Martha in GA said:

Are you using red wheat berries? I think the white wheat berries make flour that has a lighter texture/taste. I get my wheat berries from Azure (I'm a drop coordinator in my area). I make much less bread than I used to, but I have switched to using spelt. I know people who only use Einkhorn.

I have discovered that I prefer hard white to hard red, too. 

[busymama7]

1 minute ago, Martha in GA said:

Are you using red wheat berries? I think the white wheat berries make flour that has a lighter texture/taste. I get my wheat berries from Azure (I'm a drop coordinator in my area). I make much less bread than I used to, but I have switched to using spelt. I know people who only use Einkhorn.

No I use white. Generally hard white but I have also tried soft white for non bread items.  We do whole wheat for most including bread and pancakes/waffles but it's just a few things like biscuits, pizza crust and garlic knots that we just prefer white a lot. I also feed my sourdough starter with white flour.  Not really sure why I just always have.  

[Wildcat]

2 hours ago, lewelma said:

The link between glyphosate and gluten intolerance is not strong in the literature, but there have not been a lot of studies.  But it absolutely kills your gut bacteria, that is strongly established.

My dh has asked if I want to try organic flour, to see if it is the glyphosate that does me in. But I'm a bit skittish. Glad it worked for your friend. 

FYI, I don't think glyphosate is banned in Italy and France from farm use, only domestic use is banned as far as I know. However, the laws are nuanced, so it would be hard to know what crop they were using it on, how much they were using, what the half life is (this varies quite a bit), and how long between application and when you eat it.  The half life is key.  You don't eat it, if it has been long enough to half about 6 times. 100, 50, 25, 12.5, 6.25, 3.1, 1.5%. If the half life is 30 days, that is somewhat reasonable depending on the crop. If it is 180 days, it is not.  

My take away from my research is that the impact on human health is sort of bad, but the impact to the environment is catastrophic. 

Yeah, I can only remember reading two papers (summaries of studies?) on the glyphosate/gluten intolerance & their similar chemical structures. They were recent to when I read them, within like six months or something. I'm sad that in the last two years that hasn't been explored further.

If your reactions are the same as my family member's, then I don't blame you for being skittish! 

Thanks for correcting me on France & Italy (all of the EU has the same rules, I think). I wonder if I'm confusing banned with 'doesn't use'. Or maybe it's that flour products from here aren't allowed there because they have so much more glyphosate than their domestically-grown wheat? It has been so long since I read all of that stuff and I just can't remember exactly. 

My take away is the same as yours with regards to human health and the environment. I was appalled at the things I read.

[Kalmia]

19 hours ago, busymama7 said:

Where is everyone buying organic flour and wheat berries? For reasonable prices etc. I have a wheat grinder but also use white flour for some things.  

Azure Standard is my go-to for affordable, bulk organic. There is a shipping fee. But not everyone is near a drop location, so check that first.

https://www.azurestandard.com

Edited November 4, 2023 by Kalmia

[Laura Corin]

20 hours ago, lewelma said:

Glyphosate was considered a much better herbicide than DDT, which it replaced in the 1970s.  Glyphosate does break down over time, whereas DDT doesn't. In 2023, in Europe, they tested soil for the different herbicides, and number 1 was still DDT!  Number 2 was Glyphosate. The main problem with Glyphosate now is that it is so widely and heavily used in the 2 specific industrial farming practices - desiccating the wheat crop and roundup ready crops.  Glyphosate with limited, targeted use is generally OK.

Me personally, I use a paint-on application of glyphosate to kill the stems of noxious weeds (specifically blackberry here in NZ which is spreading like wildfire and killing off indigenous plants). This is a safe use, and very different than the wide-spread industrial spraying of fields. 

Yes. One of the advantages to me of moving to a house with a smaller garden is that I only paint Glyphosate on. I used to spray Docks, which have deep roots that I just couldn't get out.

[madteaparty]

No I’m not willingly limiting my food choices as I think climate change will do it soon enough. Plus I love a good baguette and pain au raisin 🙂 I’m also not in the business of denying myself some of these pleasures lol. Life is short and miserable enough, etc.