Is there a marriage book that’s like,

[Pam in CT]

You've already gotten a great deal of very valuable counsel.

 

Not bonkers.  A great many men suffer from loss of self esteem and identity as their careers wind down.  Women transitioning from fulltime caretaking is also disruptive to relationship balance. Cancer is trauma.  Y'all have a great deal going on.

All relationships are, is the summation of the words + actions + experiences shared between the people in the relationship.  It's extremely difficult to sustain any kind of depth to a relationship without words and shared activities in the present (however many PAST experiences you share). Words and shared activities (including but def not limited to sex) is literally what constitutes relationship.

 

I'm a wordy girl long married to a taciturn guy; our baseline interests are pretty divergent; we've suffered trauma jointly and severally; and our roles have evolved over time. It takes effort. There have sometimes been intervals where one of us puts in more effort than the other.  Laura's examples are good examples of what it looks like.

(( hugs ))

[SquirrellyMama]

15 hours ago, Ginevra said:

You’re not wrong; not really. I did used to think that. I think, one thing that was very attractive about him when we met was that he was such a do-er. He was robustly physical. But now he isn’t. And I’m sure it’s not all within his control but it’s disappointing all the same. 
 

I don’t really feel like I *love* many people. Pretty much just my kids; everyone else is, more wooden on the whole. I don’t know exactly why that is but it happened after I went through cancer. I assume it’s a side effect of tamping down estrogen. It’s sort of…distanced. Like I think, “Well, I like having this person in my life” but at the same time, I feel rather neutral about them remaining in my life. I almost never cry anymore. I don’t feel that deep well of emotion, even over things that are very sad. I gave a eulogy at my MIL’s funeral as if I were a speechwriter for a member of Congress. I meant all the things I said, but it was pretty cerebralized. I guess I’m the defective party here. 
 

This probably sounds bonkers… 

Doesn't sound bonkers to me... I get it, but I have no useful information for you.

[Jaybee]

Thank you for starting this thread, @Ginevra. I have found it thought-provoking, and it has given me some ideas for things I'd like to work on.

[HomeAgain]

18 hours ago, Ginevra said:

I don’t really feel like I *love* many people. Pretty much just my kids; everyone else is, more wooden on the whole. I don’t know exactly why that is but it happened after I went through cancer. I assume it’s a side effect of tamping down estrogen. It’s sort of…distanced. Like I think, “Well, I like having this person in my life” but at the same time, I feel rather neutral about them remaining in my life. I almost never cry anymore. I don’t feel that deep well of emotion, even over things that are very sad. I gave a eulogy at my MIL’s funeral as if I were a speechwriter for a member of Congress. I meant all the things I said, but it was pretty cerebralized. I guess I’m the defective party here. 
 

This probably sounds bonkers… 

This doesn't sound bonkers.  It sounds probably pretty spot on and you would do well to get a full workup.

I have a friend who had an IUD for several years.  She could have written something almost similar.  In fact, she divorced her husband because she just didn't feel in love with him.  She didn't want to travel or do experiences where people were all feeling something and she was not.  She figured she'd do better to have an asexual lifetime alone than going through the motions.  A month after her IUD was taken out, her entire personality changed.  She said it felt like she woke up and has been trying to make up for lost time.

I had a similar experience the few times I tried hormonal birth control and couldn't shake the effects of it.  When your hormones get janky, you are going to be different as a person.  I think you should see if the doctors could do anything to help, or at the very least refer you to someone who can take it into consideration.

[Ditto]

20 hours ago, Ginevra said:

I don’t really feel like I *love* many people. Pretty much just my kids; everyone else is, more wooden on the whole. I don’t know exactly why that is but it happened after I went through cancer. I assume it’s a side effect of tamping down estrogen. It’s sort of…distanced. Like I think, “Well, I like having this person in my life” but at the same time, I feel rather neutral about them remaining in my life. I almost never cry anymore. I don’t feel that deep well of emotion, even over things that are very sad. I gave a eulogy at my MIL’s funeral as if I were a speechwriter for a member of Congress. I meant all the things I said, but it was pretty cerebralized. I guess I’m the defective party here. 
 

This probably sounds bonkers… 

Nope, not bonkers at all.   I have felt the very same way since I went through cancer and cancer treatment as well.   It is something I have kept close to my heart and never told anyone.   Until I read what you wrote I truly thought it was just me and I was broken beyond repair.   Thank you for your openness and honesty in sharing this part of your heart.   But you aren't defective and you aren't alone in these feelings.   I do agree that it is another side effect of suppressing the tiny bit of estrogen left floating around.     Estrogen is important!  It truly sucks for those of us that can't have any due to cancer.

[Soror]

20 hours ago, Ginevra said:

You’re not wrong; not really. I did used to think that. I think, one thing that was very attractive about him when we met was that he was such a do-er. He was robustly physical. But now he isn’t. And I’m sure it’s not all within his control but it’s disappointing all the same. 
 

I don’t really feel like I *love* many people. Pretty much just my kids; everyone else is, more wooden on the whole. I don’t know exactly why that is but it happened after I went through cancer. I assume it’s a side effect of tamping down estrogen. It’s sort of…distanced. Like I think, “Well, I like having this person in my life” but at the same time, I feel rather neutral about them remaining in my life. I almost never cry anymore. I don’t feel that deep well of emotion, even over things that are very sad. I gave a eulogy at my MIL’s funeral as if I were a speechwriter for a member of Congress. I meant all the things I said, but it was pretty cerebralized. I guess I’m the defective party here. 
 

This probably sounds bonkers… 

I've not had cancer and am still in perimenopause here so I still am producing estrogen however....

I don't feel like I feel things like I'm supposed to either. I have a very hard time feeling a connection with people. 

My husband is less and less physically able to do things and it bothers me. And I know it makes me a horrible person. It makes me pi$$y and disgruntled. I want to do things together. 

This whole parallel thing where we do different things in the same room seems idiotic to me. Maybe as an occasional thing but if that's the only thing, no. That doesn't feel like connection to me.

My dh's love language is words of affection. He says I love you so much it feels fake to me. It is not something that pops in my head like it does in his. I try to remember to say it to him because I know it means a lot but if I wasn't making an effort it would be a very rare thing for me to do. I'm an acts of service kind of person. His cleaning the shower out of the blue meant more than a week's worth of 2 dozen I love yous. 

I entirely understand the sentiment of liking people but thinking I wouldn't miss them if they were no longer in my life. I think about that sometimes, especially when people annoy me.  🙂

Dh and I do talk and we have some things we both enjoy but we have fewer things in common than we did before for sure. I wonder and worry how that will change even more as we age. We've talked about how we show and feel love differently but it doesn't change what we default to. I'm sure I don't say I love you as much as he'd like, although I do try and I'd like him to do more and say less, although I'm sure tries too.

*I'm in PMS time here so not feeling very warm and cuddly, which certainly isn't helping.

 

[Ginevra]

27 minutes ago, Soror said:

My husband is less and less physically able to do things and it bothers me. And I know it makes me a horrible person. It makes me pi$$y and disgruntled. I want to do things together. 

Let’s go be horrible people together! 😜

 

[Ginevra]

1 hour ago, Ditto said:

Until I read what you wrote I truly thought it was just me and I was broken beyond repair.   Thank you for your openness and honesty in sharing this part of your heart

Aww. That makes me happy! 

[regentrude]

I read all your posts and have been thinking about them. Tried to multiquote but it didn't work, so here are a few thoughts in no particular order:

I think building a house is a horrible idea for a marriage that has problems. It is the kind of endeavor that tests the strongest relationships, and I'd stay far far away from it.

I am not sure that there can be a book that gives you ideas how to make him go wow if the two of you don't talk. Nobody is a mind reader. If you do not tell him what it is you need in order to feel close, he can't know.

What do you like about him now? What things do you appreciate that he is doing? Tell him. Again, no mindreading. Not the stupid gushy "you're a hero" thing - but rather: "I enjoy doing xyz with you."/"I love that I can always rely on you and feel safe."/"Thanks for doing all the taxes. I know I could, but I would hate it so much"/"I think you are really good at xyz"

What did you used to do together when you first met? Is neither of you interested in those anymore?
Are there no ways to combine your interests? For example, you mention he doesn't hike the hikes you do. My DH and I sometimes don't do the same hike. We may start together and go to some destination, and then I'll stay and he goes and climbs another mountain and comes back to me after a few hours and we hike back. (Perhaps your DH could fish in that time?) Or he starts at 3am for a big mountain, and I meet him when he is on the descent and we hike down together. Hiking is one of the activities that is highly adaptable to different levels of ability.

I find that, for me, emotional closeness in marriage comes from talking and from doing things together. If DH and I did not enjoy each other's company and liked spending time together, it would be pointless to stay married, and we should go and each find another person whose company we actually enjoy. 
After 36 years, I don't feel "in love" with my husband. I am not a romantic person, have zero libido and no interest in tea (brewing infrequently mostly for his sake). There is no strong emotion. I just couldn't think of a better person to spend my life with and go on adventures. It feels very very different from what "in love" is supposed to feel. And that's okay. 

Is it possible that your DH is depressed? Retirement is a difficult transition for a person who has always worked full-time; so much of one's identity is tied up in the job. Have you talked about his plans for what to do in retirement? 
I hesitate to ask this, and you don't have to answer - but is he showing signs of cognitive decline?  It jumped out at me that you mentioned that he cannot follow storylines like Harry Potter - has it always been like this, or is this new? That would give me concern.

[Ginevra]

Re: following a storyline. He has always been like this but I do think it is worse now. It always seemed like a disability. Even many years ago, when he would “read” with the kids before bed, he much preferred books like Where’s Waldo or I Spy - no story. 
 

However I do think he has more difficulty processing complex things than before. 

[TexasProud]

22 hours ago, Ginevra said:

 

I don’t really feel like I *love* many people. Pretty much just my kids; everyone else is, more wooden on the whole. I don’t know exactly why that is but it happened after I went through cancer. I assume it’s a side effect of tamping down estrogen. It’s sort of…distanced. Like I think, “Well, I like having this person in my life” but at the same time, I feel rather neutral about them remaining in my life. I almost never cry anymore. I don’t feel that deep well of emotion, even over things that are very sad. I gave a eulogy at my MIL’s funeral as if I were a speechwriter for a member of Congress. I meant all the things I said, but it was pretty cerebralized. I guess I’m the defective party here. 
 

This probably sounds bonkers… 

Nope.  Totally understand. I rarely cry either. And never in public. My sister didn't want to speak at the funeral because she knew she wouldn't make it through it.  I have no such problem.  I have sung and/or spoken at many funerals. I have talked about hard stuff as testimony or things and yes, cerebral is a good word.  For me, I would say performance.  I mean, I might be sad before I get up there, but once I get up in front of people it is like a switch flips. 

I don't cry that much in front of my husband either.  The exception was in 2014-2015 when I was going through perimenopause and on anti-depressents for part of that time. I felt so incredibly needy.  I HATED that and never, ever want to feel that way again. 

But yes, it may be cliche, but our husbands (or at least mine and probably yours) want to feel useful to us. I felt like I needed to be independent and not be clingy and not need him. To be honest, I had contempt for a couple of med school and residency wives who whined and moaned about their husbands not being there.  You just make arrangements for what you need to get done. You don't rely on them.  you cannot and you knew that going in. But then my husband has thought I was too independent sometimes and wishes I needed him more.  So yes, I get it. 

And yes, there is one area of our marriage that I wish were different, but will not be because of his disability and my part in it. I do grieve that, but try not to dwell on it but concentrate on all the other wonderful thing he is/does. 

Edited August 7, 2023 by TexasProud

[Ausmumof3]

10 hours ago, HomeAgain said:

This doesn't sound bonkers.  It sounds probably pretty spot on and you would do well to get a full workup.

I have a friend who had an IUD for several years.  She could have written something almost similar.  In fact, she divorced her husband because she just didn't feel in love with him.  She didn't want to travel or do experiences where people were all feeling something and she was not.  She figured she'd do better to have an asexual lifetime alone than going through the motions.  A month after her IUD was taken out, her entire personality changed.  She said it felt like she woke up and has been trying to make up for lost time.

I had a similar experience the few times I tried hormonal birth control and couldn't shake the effects of it.  When your hormones get janky, you are going to be different as a person.  I think you should see if the doctors could do anything to help, or at the very least refer you to someone who can take it into consideration.

This was me on hormonal birth control as well. 

[KidsHappen]

I want to speak to testosterone for women. I was on a HRT cream that included testosterone for several years. Earlier this year I had to stop it for awhile because I had endometrial hyperplasia and had to have a D&C. Once the effects of the cream wore off I found that I actually had an increase in interest and have since decided to not go back on it. Also as I mentioned in my thread about IF I currently weigh more than I did premenopause which supposedly helps with estrogen levels post menopause because fat cells either make or store estrogen (can't remember which). Recently I have been reading about the effects of hormones on the libido of post menopausal women and it seems that estrogen is the most important factor. There are not many studies but the few that there are seem to show that estrogen alone is more effective than estrogen/testosterone. This only applies to post menopausal women though. The results may be different before menopause. 

[Ginevra]

I’m glad that helped you, @KidsHappen. I cannot increase estrogen because my cancer was estrogen-receptor positive. I don’t know if increasing testosterone (in women) would benefit me but I’m very résistent to that strategy. Definitely am not doing it for tea-purposes and I don’t have the other problem of lack of zest for life. I have lots of zest for life, probably partially because I am aware of how it might have gone with the cancer so I’m all about making it count. 

[Toocrazy!!]

I'm late to this - but I have been reading it, such a good thread on many levels. I am not a very emotional person either, I do love several people though, and luckily DH is still one of them.  So, I get that feeling in a sense. If I felt wooden towards him, it would be much harder. 

A couple years ago I listened to the author of the Strength to Strength book on a podcast, and it really stuck with me that as we age, if we are married, it is our spouse that we are going to be spending the most time with. I wanted that to be the best possible time it could be, so I was very intentional in finding things we could do together that we would both enjoy. I was the opposite - as my DH was very physically active, so I had to improve myself that way. That said, there are a lot of outdoor adventures where you don't have to be in GREAT shape. A lot of state parks are handicap accessible in places to see the sights, so there are definitely easier hikes and walks you both might enjoy. Probably a lot of day trips in your area that aren't even really considered travel, but might be a nice change of scenery and daily drudge. I've found that a new environment can really shake things up as far as conversations and interactions. 

As far as the tEa, I'll throw it out there but I'm sure it will be dismissed by most, which is OK:) but I started reading romance a few years ago and it really made a big difference to me. I follow a few tEa education accounts on my social media, and honestly, reading about it, learning some, thinking about it more often, has really increased my libido and my satisfaction. There is a lot of corny and unrealistic romance out there, of course, but there is something about the love story and the always happily ever after that just lifts my mood and makes me appreciate my DH and our story. 

Also - you are really entering such an empowering stage of your life - freedom from some responsibilities, a new and rewarding job, and of course, a life perspective from your cancer that your DH probably can't relate to. You are blossoming, and he is shutting down what was probably one of his main roles - provider. I'm sure he took a lot of pride in his business, and there will be some fallout from that. He has a totally different life ahead of him now as well. It's a big transition. 

Thanks  to @scholastica for posting the PAIRS info above. That was really interesting, and definitely helpful to me. I think the appreciation part is so key. 

Here is the charts on who we spend time with at different ages - https://flowingdata.com/2022/04/22/changing-who-we-spend-time-with-as-we-get-older/

 

 

[Kassia]

@Toocrazy!! can you share here or by pm what tEa education accounts you follow on social media?  

[marbel]

2 hours ago, Toocrazy!! said:

A couple years ago I listened to the author of the Strength to Strength book on a podcast, and it really stuck with me that as we age, if we are married, it is our spouse that we are going to be spending the most time with. I wanted that to be the best possible time it could be, so I was very intentional in finding things we could do together that we would both enjoy. I was the opposite - as my DH was very physically active, so I had to improve myself that way.

You are the second person to mention this book, so I just requested it from the library! 

[WildflowerMom]

1 hour ago, Kassia said:

@Toocrazy!! can you share here or by pm what tEa education accounts you follow on social media?  

I’m interested, too, @Toocrazy!!! 

[Toocrazy!!]

The Instagram is s** with Emily. Emily Morse. I take the info that’s useful to me, but leave a lot. There’s a wide variety of topics covered! And most don’t apply to me. 
I wasn’t raised in a very tEa positive household, and although that’s been many, many years ago, it kind of followed me. I had some stuff to learn even this late into the game 😀

 

[Toocrazy!!]

58 minutes ago, marbel said:

You are the second person to mention this book, so I just requested it from the library! 

https://peterattiamd.com/arthurbrooks/
this is the podcast where I heard him speak. 

[Kassia]

5 minutes ago, Toocrazy!! said:

The Instagram is s** with Emily. Emily Morse. I take the info that’s useful to me, but leave a lot. There’s a wide variety of topics covered! And most don’t apply to me. 
I wasn’t raised in a very tEa positive household, and although that’s been many, many years ago, it kind of followed me. I had some stuff to learn even this late into the game 😀

 

thank you!  I found her on facebook.  I have instagram, but my kids would see that I follow her there and I'm pretty open with them, but they don't need to know that.  

[Heartstrings]

15 minutes ago, Kassia said:

thank you!  I found her on facebook.  I have instagram, but my kids would see that I follow her there and I'm pretty open with them, but they don't need to know that.  

Found her on tik tok too.  

[TechWife]

I highly recommend Sheila Gregoire’s resources. She has a lot of helpful info on her website and she’s written books and has a podcast as well. She talks about & untangles bad marriage advice and in the process presents a healthier viewpoint on the subject at hand. Her website is a little cheesy looking to me, but if you can get past that, it’s good information. 
https://baremarriage.com

 

[kbutton]

23 hours ago, Ginevra said:

Re: following a storyline. He has always been like this but I do think it is worse now. It always seemed like a disability. Even many years ago, when he would “read” with the kids before bed, he much preferred books like Where’s Waldo or I Spy - no story. 

This is a pretty common manifestation of a learning or language disability. 

[Ginevra]

1 minute ago, kbutton said:

This is a pretty common manifestation of a learning or language disability. 

Yeah, he knows that. He doesn’t plan to *do* anything about it at his age; can’t say I blame him. I doubt I would either. 
 

I had to do specific training for one of my kids who also didn’t do stories and preferred other types of books.