WWYD … long and random

[lauraw4321]

I’ve been back in therapy to help me with grief. It’s been very helpful and I wanted move on to discuss my marriage. My DH has severe ADHD. I’ve struggled in our marriage for a long time. 
 

It really seemed like my therapist’s goal was to convince me to divorce. She noted that the things I’m complaining about are the same ones I was complaining about 2 years ago. She talked about how people will stay in miserable circumstances that are familiar rather than take a leap to increased happiness. I don’t think it’s that simple. Some things would be easier / happier but a lot would be harder. Divorce is against my religion. My children would be devastated. My relationship with so many family members (both his and mine) would be damaged. I feel like our conversation pushed me backwards in depression. I’m having a hard time getting out of bed again.
 

I wish I hadn’t tried to even talk to her about it because it feels so hopeless.

 

Edited July 9, 2023 by lauraw4321
Deleting pic and some details

[Janeway]

I think you should divorce your therapist. She is no help at all. Her advice is junk and just her own stupid opinion.

[Kassia]

@lauraw4321 sending big hugs to you.  You asked what we would do - in this case, I would find a different therapist or not use this one for marital issues if you have no intention on getting divorced. 

I don't know if there are other issues other than the messiness, but most of our house is like this because of DH and it drives me crazy.  But he is a wonderful wonderful husband and father.  He doesn't do it intentionally to upset me, he's just got a million things going on at once all the time and his priority is not to get rid of all the clutter even though it makes me stressed and I hate it.  And he hates to get rid of anything, so I've pretty much given up on any decluttering of my own because he struggles with parting with things (he's trying with this ,though).  I totally get what you said about brushing your teeth and eating Oreos - it's similar here.  As much as I hate it, it's not what really matters in the long run - he does so much for me in other ways and is truly a devoted husband and father.  I would never divorce him over it and wouldn't go back to a therapist who suggested it.  But maybe there are other things going on in your relationship that I'm unaware about.  

I'm so sorry about how you're feeling, though.  Maybe there's one room or one area where you can declare it a safe zone and DH has to respect that.  If that works, maybe you can expand that space.  

 

[KSera]

I’m really sorry the therapist was so unhelpful. It seems like some therapists are very quick to recommend divorce as a solution to peoples problems. Is your husbands ADHD medicated? It seems to me like a very practical first step, if it’s not.

I have multiple kids with ADHD and the picture you posted is the way they leave things all the time, which is super frustrating for me, but I’ve also had to learn to have a degree of acceptance of about. I know that it’s not that they don’t care, but they literally don’t see it without it being pointed out and then it’s overwhelming for them to know how to deal with the mess they created. Do you have any room in the house that could be his to leave whatever he wants in it and make whatever mess he needs to and generally just left in whatever state he wants?
 

[lauraw4321]

Answering questions: yes, his ADHD is medicated. The garage is supposed to be the space he uses for his projects but it just doesn’t work out. 
 

I wouldn’t call him a wonderful husband and father. He provides, is loyal, and supports whatever I want to do (because I think he just doesn’t care). We have other issues I won’t put forward this publicly. When I talked to her I basically felt like I was a fool for not divorcing him. I’m so overwhelmingly sad now. 

[CTVKath]

Bless your heart!!! I'd definitely get a new therapist. Maybe even 2 new therapists. Whatever you need to work with grief, depression and your husband's clutter. And also help you work through your options and come to terms with them instead of telling you what to do. I'm sorry your therapist pushed you so hard.

p.s. your photo isn't shocking to me. That looks like every one of my husband's spaces in the house. I'm territorial though and remove his clutter from the main areas of the house. There's a designated spot in each one of his spaces (bedroom, basement office, tool area, leftover building/project supplies etc.) that I will return stuff to.

[Kassia]

@lauraw4321please find a new therapist to talk about any marital issues since this one is making you feel worse.  Try to let what she said go - she is obviously not a good fit for you and your family.  Like @CTVKath, your photo wasn't shocking to me either.  

 

[City Mouse]

I’m sorry. That looks a bit like my house. There is nothing you or your therapist can do to change your DH, so all you can do is change how you react to him. 

While divorce has popped into my head several times over the soon to be 32 yrs of marriage, I’ve never gotten to the point of getting a lawyer. Although, I did start looking for an apartment once.

I deal with the clutter and incomplete projects, by being extremely protective of certain spaces in our house, and I don’t let him clutter those up. Yes, that sometimes means I have to clean up behind him. For example, if that dining room was one of my spaces, I would take it upon myself to get rid of the blinds, and then put all of the rest of his “stuff” in a box that gets stashed in his space. Now, i do usually give him a warning. Something like “Tomorrow I am going to clean up the dining room, do you want to move your stuff before I do?” He has learned not to get mad when I move his stuff and I have to work at not being resentful when I have to clean up after him. Also, I specifically ask my DH to clean up one specific location, he will usually do what I ask. It doesn’t stay clean long, but it is clean for a little while. 

Sometimes it sucks always having to be the “mom”, but that is what I have to do. It is better for me now that my kids are grown. My DS is particularly helpful in making runs to the dump and dropping off at the thrift store. Also, I have had the opportunity to do some traveling without my DH. I think that has helped us in multiple ways. One, it gives me time away from him where I don’t have to deal with his messes, but even more important is that after a couple of days, I start to miss him and want to share my experiences with him. The time away helps me remember what I like about him.
 

Funny story- I once dropped some unused items at our local thrift store and my DH bought them back without even knowing I donated those items.
 

On a different note - not living together and getting divorced don’t have to go together. You can live separate and still be married.

Edited July 7, 2023 by City Mouse
Fixed typos

[lauraw4321]

10 minutes ago, City Mouse said:

 

On a different note - not living together and getting divorced don’t have to go together. You can live separate and still be married.

Ok, this blew my mind. I don’t know why I’ve never thought of this but this made me feel hopeful in a way I didn’t think I could. 

[Mrs Tiggywinkle Again]

I recently had a therapist tell me to consider divorce because my husband is really against me being a stay at home mom which is my desire a this point. I’m not sure how divorce would help that at all(you could get alimony, she assured me. I make slightly more money than my husband, but she still assured me I’d get alimony…). 
Plus I like my husband.

He also had ADHD, and I am really really frustrated with the started but not finished projects, the clutter, and the mess. He doesn’t see it, but at least at this point is willing to build himself a pole barn and put all of his clutter and half finished projects there.  If he was willing to get an adult diagnosis and meds, I think it would help.  Is there anyway he would be willing to contain it to one room?

[regentrude]

If the therapist does not seem helpful, get a new one.
However, you might want to take note of what she said: if you complain about the same issue for years and are not willing to change something, you may be sabotaging yourself.
Obviously, only you know whether you want to continue living with your DH or not. But as pp said: you don't have to live in the same space and can still remain married. (Contrary to what other posters said, I would not be willing to put up with a house that is looking like your picture - it would greatly affect my quality of life.)

ETA: Has he always been like this, or has this gotten suddenly worse? Did you think you could handle it when you were younger and are finding yourself increasingly unable to handle the mess, or what changed? 

Edited July 7, 2023 by regentrude

[KSera]

3 minutes ago, regentrude said:

Contrary to what other posters said, I would not be willing to put up with a house that is looking like your picture - it would greatly affect my quality of life

What would you do if it was due to your kids?

[regentrude]

9 minutes ago, KSera said:

What would you do if it was due to your kids?

Give kid projects/clutter designated spaces that do not spill into the shared dining area/kitchen. They can have rooms as messy as they want (except no food), but it cannot stretch over all areas of the house.
Limit horizontal surfaces where stuff can be put (no end tables, no non-functional decorative horizontal spaces. No unused tables - dining table would be cleared before every meal, three times a day, and not be allowed to accumulate stuff because we would use it for eating.)
With kids, you can also limit to how many items enter the house in a way you cannot with a spouse.
 

Edited July 7, 2023 by regentrude

[Faith-manor]

9 minutes ago, regentrude said:

If the therapist does not seem helpful, get a new one.
However, you might want to take note of what she said: if you complain about the same issue for years and are not willing to change something, you may be sabotaging yourself.
Obviously, only you know whether you want to continue living with your DH or not. But as pp said: you don't have to live in the same space and can still remain married. (Contrary to what other posters said, I would not be willing to put up with a house that is looking like your picture - it would greatly affect my quality of life.)

ETA: Has he always been like this, or has this gotten suddenly worse? Did you think you could handle it when you were younger and are finding yourself increasingly unable to handle the mess, or what changed? 

This. I do know a couple who did not want to divorce because it would be financial mess, and make things super complicated for their adult kids, but did sell their home and buy a duplex. He lives in one side, and she in the other with a joint account for paying mortgage and other bills. They both have a lot more peace since they are not compatible for living together 24/7 and sharing space, but they still love each other and do spend time together. I think people need to think outside the box sometimes to figure out a good solution when personalities clash, yet the desire to remain attached is there.

[kbutton]

53 minutes ago, lauraw4321 said:

Answering questions: yes, his ADHD is medicated. The garage is supposed to be the space he uses for his projects but it just doesn’t work out. 
 

I wouldn’t call him a wonderful husband and father. He provides, is loyal, and supports whatever I want to do (because I think he just doesn’t care). We have other issues I won’t put forward this publicly. When I talked to her I basically felt like I was a fool for not divorcing him. I’m so overwhelmingly sad now. 

I've been in similar shoes, but I have a supportive therapist. We had some joint sessions with another therapist before DH started seeing him solo, and he really pushed me on this. I think we came to a truce, but it wasn't pretty. I know enough about the therapist from others that I do care about what he says, and I've had enough water under the bridge that I could stand up and push back. 

29 minutes ago, lauraw4321 said:

Ok, this blew my mind. I don’t know why I’ve never thought of this but this made me feel hopeful in a way I didn’t think I could. 

I have considered such a thing myself. If our neighborhood had nice duplexes, I would very seriously consider that. 

I think you should find another counselor. I can understand the idea of self-sabotage, etc. that people talk about, but it's not always that simple. 

ADHD is often just one of many things going on. It's largely thought to be hereditary, and I think it can set the stage for family dysfunction, especially in generations where it wasn't diagnosed. It also has comorbidities--language, etc. 

[Katy]

I’d divorce the therapist too. Go to Walmart and buy a big folding table, a new fat sharpie, and a large moving box for every project in the house.  Dump all of his projects & items in the dining room in one box and label it by project name. If you don’t know the project name, label it “(DH’s name) dining room project.” Do one for every load of junk impinging on your space in the whole house. Open the folding table, stack the boxes under it. When DH complains, say “my therapist said to divorce you. I decided to divorce your project mess instead. It’s all in the garage where it belongs. You can only do one project at a time anyway.”  Then hold the boundary. If the junk comes back in, put the box by the trash can next time. Don’t throw it out, just make it SLIGHTLY harder for him to find. Kind of like your patience. 

DH & several kids have ADHD. I found Dana K White’s advice most helpful for dealing with their clutter. Both audible audiobooks and her Youtube channel.

[wintermom]

Not to be a downer, but I guess that the therapist does have a bit of a point, in that things probably won't change with this man's behaviour and it's really up to you to take control if you want changes made. What are you willing to live with, and what is a deal breaker? What kind of magic is a therapist supposed to do with the situation you've made for yourself?

You chose the guy, had kids with him, and now his behaviours are highly iritating. You could start with owning your past choices and the consequences, and look toward how future choices will also have consequences. You can choose to stay with the guy and learn to live with his behaviours, or choose to leave. What other options are you hoping will appear?

[lauraw4321]

27 minutes ago, regentrude said:

 

ETA: Has he always been like this, or has this gotten suddenly worse? Did you think you could handle it when you were younger and are finding yourself increasingly unable to handle the mess, or what changed? 

He's always been like this. We didn't live together before we got married so I really didn't know what I was getting myself into. Our first few years were basically me yelling at him all the time to clean things up. We were both miserable. I was depressed. Then there were a few years when the kids were young when he was working too much or too tired to make big messes. Now the insane messes are back. He hates giving/throwing anything away because we "might need it." Like right now there are three couches, a recliner and an oversized chair in my living room. There isn't room for all of these, but he's not willing to get rid of anything. He told me I had to clean up a space and then we could talk about the couch situation. I did but he hasn't been willing to talk about it. 

I think the difference is that a) I'm no longer depressed b) kids are less intensive distraction.

[lauraw4321]

13 minutes ago, Katy said:

I’d divorce the therapist too. Go to Walmart and buy a big folding table, a new fat sharpie, and a large moving box for every project in the house.  Dump all of his projects & items in the dining room in one box and label it by project name. If you don’t know the project name, label it “(DH’s name) dining room project.” Do one for every load of junk impinging on your space in the whole house. Open the folding table, stack the boxes under it. When DH complains, say “my therapist said to divorce you. I decided to divorce your project mess instead. It’s all in the garage where it belongs. You can only do one project at a time anyway.”  Then hold the boundary. If the junk comes back in, put the box by the trash can next time. Don’t throw it out, just make it SLIGHTLY harder for him to find. Kind of like your patience. 

DH & several kids have ADHD. I found Dana K White’s advice most helpful for dealing with their clutter. Both audible audiobooks and her Youtube channel.

I've never heard of Dana - I'll look into them. Thanks. 

[regentrude]

3 minutes ago, lauraw4321 said:

He's always been like this. We didn't live together before we got married so I really didn't know what I was getting myself into. Our first few years were basically me yelling at him all the time to clean things up. We were both miserable. I was depressed. Then there were a few years when the kids were young when he was working too much or too tired to make big messes. Now the insane messes are back. He hates giving/throwing anything away because we "might need it." Like right now there are three couches, a recliner and an oversized chair in my living room. There isn't room for all of these, but he's not willing to get rid of anything. He told me I had to clean up a space and then we could talk about the couch situation. I did but he hasn't been willing to talk about it. 

I think the difference is that a) I'm no longer depressed b) kids are less intensive distraction.

That must be really, really hard. The bolded is the gateway to hoarding. I don't think that's just regular ADHD. Is he willing to seek psychological help?
You don't have to live like that; you have the right to peace in your home.
 

 

Edited July 7, 2023 by regentrude

[kbutton]

12 minutes ago, wintermom said:

Not to be a downer, but I guess that the therapist does have a bit of a point, in that things probably won't change with this man's behaviour and it's really up to you to take control if you want changes made. What are you willing to live with, and what is a deal breaker? What kind of magic is a therapist supposed to do with the situation you've made for yourself?

You chose the guy, had kids with him, and now his behaviours are highly iritating. You could start with owning your past choices and the consequences, and look toward how future choices will also have consequences. You can choose to stay with the guy and learn to live with his behaviours, or choose to leave. What other options are you hoping will appear?

This is really harsh.

Not everything happens overnight. Not everyone has red flags (or they have valid explanations at the time).

Sometimes there are things in between the onset of a problem and when it comes to a head that have nothing to do with the problem and delay a way of dealing with it.

Sometimes circumstances mask the problem.

[lauraw4321]

12 minutes ago, wintermom said:

Not to be a downer, but I guess that the therapist does have a bit of a point, in that things probably won't change with this man's behaviour and it's really up to you to take control if you want changes made. What are you willing to live with, and what is a deal breaker? What kind of magic is a therapist supposed to do with the situation you've made for yourself?

You chose the guy, had kids with him, and now his behaviours are highly iritating. You could start with owning your past choices and the consequences, and look toward how future choices will also have consequences. You can choose to stay with the guy and learn to live with his behaviours, or choose to leave. What other options are you hoping will appear?

Yeah, I get it. I regret marrying him. We met when I was 19. Married when I was 23. Never lived together. I didn't know what I was getting myself into until it was too late. But I made a promise to God, not just him. So yes, I have to deal with it. But ideas like living apart are great. And helping me feel my feelings and then move past them. She's helped with other things that cannot change - difficult relationship with my mom (who is now dead). So I don't know why she will discuss divorce WRT to him. 

He doesn't beat me. He doesn't cheat on me. He doesn't control me. He is funny. He loves his kids. He's a flawed human just like I am, so I need help figuring out how to move forward WITHOUT divorce. 

[lauraw4321]

3 minutes ago, regentrude said:

That must be really, really hard. The bolded is the gateway to hoarding. I don't think that's just regular ADHD. Is he willing to seek psychological help?
You don't have to live like that; you have the right to peace in your home.
 

 

He isn't willing to get help - he doesn't think he has a problem. My standards are the problem in his mind. My mom was a hoarder (or had hoarding tendencies is maybe a better way to put it) and I've tried to express to him how triggering/upsetting/detrimental it is to my mental health. He counters that it's detrimental to his mental health NOT to have these projects because they are the only thing that make him happy. 

[wintermom]

2 minutes ago, kbutton said:

This is really harsh.

Not everything happens overnight. Not everyone has red flags (or they have valid explanations at the time).

Sometimes there are things in between the onset of a problem and when it comes to a head that have nothing to do with the problem and delay a way of dealing with it.

Sometimes circumstances mask the problem.

I'm guessing that the rant about the therapist that everyone is doing is also harsh? Who here is defending that individual. Do people become therapists to be cruel? Are they supposed to be magicians? What do people actually expect from them? 

[Katy]

Can you put whatever furniture you don’t like in the garage and hold the line? Or is there not enough space for that?

[regentrude]

4 minutes ago, lauraw4321 said:

He isn't willing to get help - he doesn't think he has a problem. My standards are the problem in his mind. My mom was a hoarder (or had hoarding tendencies is maybe a better way to put it) and I've tried to express to him how triggering/upsetting/detrimental it is to my mental health. He counters that it's detrimental to his mental health NOT to have these projects because they are the only thing that make him happy. 

Wow. That seems incredibly disrespectful. I am sorry. I hope you can find a way to separate physically. 

ETA: It is a normal expectation to want spaces in the house usable for their intended purpose and not to be surrounded by junk. 

Edited July 7, 2023 by regentrude

[kbutton]

1 minute ago, wintermom said:

I'm guessing that the rant about the therapist that everyone is doing is also harsh? Who here is defending that individual. Do people become therapists to be cruel? Are they supposed to be magicians? What do people actually expect from them? 

I was with a family member at their psychiatrist appointment yesterday, and the psychiatrist said that the number one evidence-based thing that makes a difference in therapy with a counselor is that the person has a solid rapport with the person getting counseling. By that measure, the therapist failed spectacularly. 

[lauraw4321]

Just now, Katy said:

Can you put whatever furniture you don’t like in the garage and hold the line? Or is there not enough space for that?

I could, but then he gets really upset because the garage is supposed to be "his space" and that's disrespecting his space. I've offered several times to get a storage facility. I don't want to AT ALL but it seems like a decent compromise. 

[regentrude]

2 minutes ago, lauraw4321 said:

I could, but then he gets really upset because the garage is supposed to be "his space" and that's disrespecting his space. I've offered several times to get a storage facility. I don't want to AT ALL but it seems like a decent compromise. 

but it's HIS stuff, isn't it, that he's holding onto against your will?
If he has "his" space, what has been designated as "your" space? You deserve, and should insist on, an equal area that is free of his crap.

Edited July 7, 2023 by regentrude

[wintermom]

7 minutes ago, lauraw4321 said:

Yeah, I get it. I regret marrying him. We met when I was 19. Married when I was 23. Never lived together. I didn't know what I was getting myself into until it was too late. But I made a promise to God, not just him. So yes, I have to deal with it. But ideas like living apart are great. And helping me feel my feelings and then move past them. She's helped with other things that cannot change - difficult relationship with my mom (who is now dead). So I don't know why she will discuss divorce WRT to him. 

He doesn't beat me. He doesn't cheat on me. He doesn't control me. He is funny. He loves his kids. He's a flawed human just like I am, so I need help figuring out how to move forward WITHOUT divorce. 

My apologies for being rather blunt. It's hard to know what is going to 'click' with clients and at what timing things will 'click.' Perhaps she provided a support for some things, but you weren't ready for other things, or she did not have the specific training that would be most beneficial for you. 

[Katy]

If the garage is “his space” then the house is “your space” and he is disrespecting you by putting in too much furniture. 

Honestly I’d just ask a kid to help me carry the couch to the curb on garbage day. It’s a $10 fee for garbage furniture disposal here. And I’d deal with him being a petulant child because to me that’s less stressful than too much clutter. 

[wintermom]

3 minutes ago, kbutton said:

I was with a family member at their psychiatrist appointment yesterday, and the psychiatrist said that the number one evidence-based thing that makes a difference in therapy with a counselor is that the person has a solid rapport with the person getting counseling. By that measure, the therapist failed spectacularly. 

We only have one side of the story. I know people who go to couselling and say nothing to their therapist. They don't speak. How is a therapist supposed to create rapport with clients who won't talk? 

[lauraw4321]

4 minutes ago, regentrude said:

Wow. That seems incredibly disrespectful. I am sorry. I hope you can find a way to separate physically. 

ETA: It is a normal expectation to want spaces in the house usable for their intended purpose and not to be surrounded by junk. 

Ha.  In his mind it's normal for us to live in caves. (ie our ancestors lived in deplorable circumstances for hundreds of thousands of years, so anything above that is just lucky). Anything above dirt floors and cave walls is a big bonus. 

[lauraw4321]

3 minutes ago, regentrude said:

but it's HIS stuff, isn't it, that he's holding onto against your will?
If he has "his" space, what has been designated as "your" space? You deserve, and should insist on, an equal area that is free of his crap.

The couch is ours. He's emotionally attached to it because it's the couch we used when our babies were born (we definitely napped with them on that couch). He claims that we repeatedly give things away and then have to buy the same thing later. I asked him to give me an example because I truly can't think of one and he couldn't.

The garage does have a lot of stuff that isn't his. It's where camping and backpacking stuff goes. So that pisses him off. And the trash cans and recycling are in there, so literal trash gets put in there. The kids are often lazy and try to throw stuff into the recycling and miss. So there might be cans or bottles on the floor. He has legitimate reasons to be irritated. 

We have a kitchen table where we eat most of the time and it isn't cluttered. The problem is that we have family over a lot, and if we have more than just one extra person, there really isn't space to eat. 

 

[Pawz4me]

So he refuses to admit there are any problems, or if so they're all yours, and he refuses to even consider compromising or changing his own behavior.

And you want suggestions to rectify that w/o a divorce.

It seems to me the only possibility is separate living spaces, however that can be worked out.

I'm sorry. I couldn't live with that level of clutter w/o completely wrecking my mental health.

[Arcadia]

2 hours ago, lauraw4321 said:

Any cleaning efforts are like brushing your teeth and eating Oreos. He doesn’t get that this causes me distress (or if he does, he doesn’t care).

My husband is similar though he doesn’t have ADHD. I threw a big temper tantrum so that it sink in that I am upset. Our family agreed that our dining room is his “junk room” so he isn’t “allowed” to make a mess anywhere else. It took years and a few more tantrums before he remembers. If his mess is anywhere else, we would just dump the stuff into the dining room. 

[cintinative]

23 minutes ago, lauraw4321 said:

He hates giving/throwing anything away because we "might need it." Like right now there are three couches, a recliner and an oversized chair in my living room. There isn't room for all of these, but he's not willing to get rid of anything. He told me I had to clean up a space and then we could talk about the couch situation. I did but he hasn't been willing to talk about it. 

 

This sounds OCD-ish to me more than ADHD?

[cintinative]

Your marriage sounds pretty lonely. I have been there. 

I would seek a new counselor.

Ultimately both of you need to be able to move toward each other.  Otherwise you will continue to feel helpless and lonely.  Praying for a good counseling solution.

[regentrude]

6 minutes ago, lauraw4321 said:

The garage does have a lot of stuff that isn't his. It's where camping and backpacking stuff goes. So that pisses him off. And the trash cans and recycling are in there, so literal trash gets put in there. The kids are often lazy and try to throw stuff into the recycling and miss. So there might be cans or bottles on the floor. He has legitimate reasons to be irritated. 

Again: unless YOU have a space that is totally yours where no family possessions are stored, he has no right to be irritated about camping gear in the garage. Has he proposed an alternative?
Yes, kids shouldn't throw trash on the floor. But he might need to consider what a role model he is for them. If the house looks trashed, how will the kids learn?

[Pawz4me]

11 minutes ago, lauraw4321 said:

The couch is ours. He's emotionally attached to it because it's the couch we used when our babies were born (we definitely napped with them on that couch). He claims that we repeatedly give things away and then have to buy the same thing later. I asked him to give me an example because I truly can't think of one and he couldn't.

The garage does have a lot of stuff that isn't his. It's where camping and backpacking stuff goes. So that pisses him off. And the trash cans and recycling are in there, so literal trash gets put in there. The kids are often lazy and try to throw stuff into the recycling and miss. So there might be cans or bottles on the floor. He has legitimate reasons to be irritated. 

We have a kitchen table where we eat most of the time and it isn't cluttered. The problem is that we have family over a lot, and if we have more than just one extra person, there really isn't space to eat. 

 

So . . 

His stuff = okay

Other people's stuff = not okay

I'd think on the (lack of) fairness of that a bit.

[Arcadia]

32 minutes ago, lauraw4321 said:

The garage does have a lot of stuff that isn't his. It's where camping and backpacking stuff goes. So that pisses him off. And the trash cans and recycling are in there, so literal trash gets put in there. The kids are often lazy and try to throw stuff into the recycling and miss. So there might be cans or bottles on the floor. He has legitimate reasons to be irritated. 

We have a cupboard for camping, backpacking stuff. As for kids making a mess, that is something to work on. My kids can be messy at times but I insist their mess stays in their personal area. I would be annoyed if their mess is in my personal space. So the recycling mess stuff is something your kids can work on since the garage is supposed to be his space.

[kbutton]

33 minutes ago, wintermom said:

We only have one side of the story. I know people who go to couselling and say nothing to their therapist. They don't speak. How is a therapist supposed to create rapport with clients who won't talk? 

Really? You're going to lob that my way after she said she's talked to the counselor and that she has had help from the same therapist with relationships that are similarly difficult? 

25 minutes ago, Arcadia said:

My husband is similar though he doesn’t have ADHD. I threw a big temper tantrum so that it sink in that I am upset. Our family agreed that our dining room is his “junk room” so he isn’t “allowed” to make a mess anywhere else. It took years and a few more tantrums before he remembers. If his mess is anywhere else, we would just dump the stuff into the dining room. 

My counselor said that some people really need to see how much they peeve other people off because telling them nicely doesn't work. 

28 minutes ago, cintinative said:

This sounds OCD-ish to me more than ADHD?

Agreed.

I don't have OCD or ADHD, and I get more likely to hang onto things in some circumstances, but I can work through that and not make it a permanent feature. For example, I have limits on how much of something to keep or for how long, and if the reason I'm saving it changes, I have a fairly regular cycle of going through things so that I can let stuff go. Sometimes it's about waste--I know something will end up in a landfill vs. recycled or reused, and if I can find a way to make that not happen, then it's easier to let go. 

Whether it's OCD or not, it's problematic. 

ADHD has a lot of presentations, but I think it's also easy to blame all the problems an ADHD person has on ADHD and not figure anything else out.

25 minutes ago, cintinative said:

Your marriage sounds pretty lonely. I have been there. 

I would seek a new counselor.

Ultimately both of you need to be able to move toward each other.  Otherwise you will continue to feel helpless and lonely.  Praying for a good counseling solution.

QFT

[Quarter Note]

@lauraw4321, do you have property large enough for a "She Shed" type thing?  You know, your own detached "room".  Even if you went all-out with climate control, electricity, and plumbing, if would still be much less expensive than divorce.  Or, you could just go simply Walden-style, with a simple detached room that would be your own space.  

@Mrs Tiggywinkle Again, didn't your husband build you your own detached library or something like that?  

(I often joke that I'm going to get a She Shed with a retinal scan for the lock to keep everyone else out.)

Take care, Laura.  This is hard stuff.  

[Arcadia]

10 minutes ago, kbutton said:

My counselor said that some people really need to see how much they peeve other people off because telling them nicely doesn't work

In my husband’s case, it is mostly learned behavior. My MIL would whine but put up with FIL’s mess because he was the breadwinner. Theirs was a traditional arranged marriage. So my husband doesn’t see something as serious unless I blow my top. In the long run, it helps our marriage rather than seething at each other. If I do something he doesn’t like, he has learned to be more direct instead of being passive aggressive like his parents. He is still passive aggressive at times because old habits die hard but he is making the effort.

[elegantlion]

I would find a new therapist but I would also implement some practices to help with the clutter. If you want to be non-confrontational, plan a dinner party. Give dh a date in which the table needs cleaned off and the blinds gone or you'll box them up. Your dining room is lovely. I would then put up a centerpiece or candle holders and a table runner and tell him that table needs to stay clean. 

disclaimer: my exdh had ADHD and was meticulously clean and organized. My current SO has ADHD and is organized but has piles of paper on our table simply because he doesn't have a designated work table. We're hoping to rectify that when we move to a bigger space. My parents played my space/my space games for years. He would clear a spot and she would fill it with something, and vice versa. Then they started going to auctions where you might want one item and get a boxload instead. Oh boy! I helped clean their house after my dad died and my mom moved. She still has some clutter - like no flat surface is completely empty, but she's much better. I still get tense when I visit too long. There's very few places to rest the eyes. I have to guard my own tendancies to clutter because SO and I are in a super small apartment right now. 

[kbutton]

7 minutes ago, Arcadia said:

In my husband’s case, it is mostly learned behavior. My MIL would whine but put up with FIL’s mess because he was the breadwinner. Theirs was a traditional arranged marriage. So my husband doesn’t see something as serious unless I blow my top. In the long run, it helps our marriage rather than seething at each other. If I do something he doesn’t like, he has learned to be more direct instead of being passive aggressive like his parents. He is still passive aggressive at times because old habits die hard but he is making the effort.

His family is very passive aggressive, and there are likely both serious personality disorders and ADHD in the mix. Maybe some autism sprinkled around for fun.

 

[kbutton]

OP, I don't think the clutter is your problem to deal with, but I like this book because it's very practical about organization, and it actually overlaps greatly with my view of how to organize things (for instance, except for my address book, alphabetizing stuff is really unhelpful for me). It seems to include a lot of insight into human behavior, especially for clutter-y people.

https://www.amazon.com/Organizing-Solutions-People-ADHD-3rd/dp/0760381623/ref=asc_df_0760381623/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=598351629263&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=16610978104206956540&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=1023838&hvtargid=pla-1733313179256&psc=1

I do tend toward some clutter (usually finite, of a certain kind, and 90% is time limited). Sometimes I'm cluttered because I'm interrupted over and over in ways that could not be anticipated when I set out to do something (and that's saying a lot because I anticipate things well when they can be anticipated). 

It also gave me permission to do more stuff that made things easier, especially when spending money was involved--I generally stored things in free cardboard boxes, but I realized that I use things better and declutter more easily when I can put stuff in clear bins and clear bags, and they are easier to open and use if they are sized to stack well. 

Anyway, if any ideas resonated with your DH, maybe something could inch toward being less hard. I know that "regular" organizational help does not work for most of my family or for me. The fact that I needed permission to do things less conventionally meant that I felt like I couldn't criticize DH as much early on when things were out of hand (and we had a "delay" in learning these things together due to various circumstances, and then the delay made it coincide with the onset of parenting non-neurotypical kids). Having permission to organize in a way that worked for me helped me take more control AND feel like I could then have a basis for having higher expectations from DH. It also helped me communicate it more directly, though direct communication in his family is seen as suspicious and often opens a person up to others doing something disastrous with the information, so that is a constant thing to work through.

[gardenmom5]

Can he have a man cave for his "projects", and leave the rest of the house to you?
Is he being treated for his ADD?  Is he willing to do so?

I would get a different therapist.   tbh, I think that's what happened with 1dd.  She was making good progress, then her therapist went on sabbatical and she got a new one.  Now, she's not really talking to anyone.  
For two years, my friend's daughter's psychiatrist would tell her all her problems were her religion, and her parents; and she needed to severe contact with them.  Her problem was her then undiagnosed brain tumor.

[SquirrellyMama]

I wouldn't fire the therapist yet. Sometimes they need to speak up and jolt us out of complacency. It sounds like you are just existing in your house, and not able to fully live in it. I think your therapist made a good point. Tell her again that you don't believe in divorce, but would be willing to separate. See if that changes the conversation with her. 

 

 

 

 

[bolt.]

I'm not sure I'd jump to a new therapist without just outright telling her that you think she was pushing you towards divorce as a solution, and that you didn't like it. As a professional therapist, she will recognize that *that's not therapy* and she wasn't successfully providing you with what you need. That should matter to her, and (unless she's actually incompetent or unethical) she should be able to make it right and continue if you want to.

I'm also not sure that she *did* imply that divorce was the best solution for you. I think she only said that *changing the situation* was a reasonable goal. Is it possible that you (like me, and like lots of other people) got a bit into the black-and-white weeds and thought, "The only change I can think of is abandoning the marriage, so that must be what she means."?

Because, like people here say, strategies like giving yourself permission to move his crap and not care too much if that upsets him -- that's a major change and a major risk. It involves the unknown. Like the unknown of: "What happens if I upset him, and he says so, and I don't apologize, and I just continue doing it knowing it's upsetting him?" -- I don't think that's marital territory you've ever been in before. I imagine it scares you.

(Ironically enough, it's not actually new territory for your marriage. He's been doing 'a thing' that upsets you for years. You tell him you're upset, he doesn't apologize, and he keeps doing it knowing it upsets you.)

And that's not the only strategy available that would totally change something major about your marriage and living situation without choosing divorce. There's lots. It's just that they are all really serious choices with really serious consequences. And lots of people really would rather stay in miserable circumstances that are familiar rather than take a leap like that. And (I bet your therapist would say too) that's a perfectly fine choice that lots of people make... it's just good to have the self-awareness to know you are making it, know why you are making it, and know that you did have other choices, and that you will continue to have other choices if you ever change your mind.